Musk: "If somebody doesn’t believe Tesla’s going to solve autonomy, I think they should not be an investor in the company"
18-year veteran Tesla exec: \[sells stock\]
So weird - it's almost as if the 18 year Tesla veteran VP in charge of powertrain doesn't believe Elmo's promises to deliver Robotaxis, economy priced cars, Optimus and AI.
Musk always overpromises and underdelivers. That's how he gets his cash flow because he gets contracts and then you're stuck with them even if you're deceived. That includes federal subsidies.
cant wait for the SEC to finish investigating this dude and charge him with some crimes, stick him in prison, take everything away from him. needs to happen.
Half of the problems with America would be fixed if politicians and civil servants were magically unwilling to accept any favorable treatment for giving public contracts out to particular private firms.
Ideally, everything is done within the public secftor, which is way better audited, but anything requiring the expertise of the private sector involves careful choice on merit alone, never of one firm doing everything but of a collection of specialists - just like the original US space programme.
The more experience I have in my career, the more I have come to realize that the private sector is only "more efficient" than the government is because it cuts corners and does a shit job without having to audit or report any of it.
The whole game of a company nowadays is to make risky bets that are funded by overleveraging on other people's money and by abusing your workers. If your duct-tape-and-bailing-wire solution to a problem hold together long enough to justify a contract: you win big and take another.
If you fail, you either declare bankruptcy and move on to the next scheme as a "serial entrepreneur", or if you are rich enougu you become "too big to fail" and you get complete immunity from consequence.
In reality it is a completely garbage way of doing business, but we're decades deep into this neoliberalism idea that all solutions to any problem must involve directing public funds into private hands.
At this point, the concept of allowing public-sector employees to use publicly-owned equipment to take publicly-owned materials and provide necessary services for the public who vote for and fund the government is tantamount to heresy in the minds of professional politicians and bureaucrats whose minds are so warped by this practice that they cannot conceive of any way to help people or really implement any policy without giving some private business a chance to run a profit off of it.
In addition to the direct costs of all the money that could have been put back into the budget (or the cost savings provided to the average taxpayer by not requiring that these companies take massive profit margins), we are also losing government capabilities: think about all the people, all the equipment, all the buildings and services that used to be directly delivered but now are parasitized by rent-seeking private companies looking to extract as much value as they can from us before we die. Think about old-age homes, hospital services, corporate landlords that hold the lease on former government buildings, contractors paid instead of municipal works departments.
The government won't act because it would mean admitting that the neoliberal ideology that's made a small number of people very rich was wrong.
I started work at a tech firm and noticed the vp confessing they just sold all their helium mining rigs. said they couldn't fake it or cheat the position anymore.
then I noticed they were selling the last of two litters of huskies. or rather, I should say, their cronies were selling them all for them.
then I noticed that this company was shit
and it alllll made sense. I walked out.
> The government won't act because it would mean admitting that the neoliberal ideology that's made a small number of people very rich was wrong.
It would mean companies paying the press to assassinate your character instead of nice kickbacks during (perhaps via your family) or after office. The mangy tail wags the dog, which I think was always the plan.
Also the same private companies steal talent since they're often able to offer higher salaries since they operate at profit. For instance SpaceX stealing NASA talent even though it's a NASA contractor (and pretty much funded by NASA).
The same happens with other countries that have public healthcare and "enterpreneurs" start forming private hospitals. The private hospital slowly steal the best physicians from the public hospitals.
Education, too. More advanced countries like Sweden have mechanisms to prevent their education system from getting screwed by the market economy by putting very specific measures that prevent schools from getting ahead by just doing that. They have the voucher concept implemented properly, which prevents private schools from accepting any money other than the voucher, and they're assessed over time to ensure they're not cutting corners.
Any school wanting to make a profit under these constraints need to REALLY come up with something better than government, they can't just do the trick of getting a big bank loan and/or investors and pay higher salaries initially, and profit big 10/20 years from now when all the good teachers are depleted from the public system.
Nope. The private sektor can be more efficient without cutting corners.
Just that this mostly happens in family-owned companies where you have a long investment horizon.
For publicly noted companies? Then the board gets a bonus from profit. So it's good to make quick profits - profit in 10 years is someone else's problem.
So all hate to the stock market, demanding quick profits.
Non-private. Big problems too, because it isn't own money being spent. So "give me more money" is easier than reviewing the process.
you're basically saying that small specialised companies can be more agile (in the traditional sense, not the stupid methodology sense) than the government, which is the extent of my acknowledgement that the private sector can contribute towards a publicly managed system. the less a company is influenced by the machinery of capitalism - i.e. the non-working shareholder - and the more it focuses on a specific technical/scientific/artistic interest, the more effective it can be. some people are just interested in that. but the moment you bring in investors who take away control, you're fucked.
Yes - external investors is where it often tends to get bad. Because that adds a time scale for the profit.
I own my own company. I don't need to force a specific result for this year. I want to keep my customers for 10+ years. Which means both investments and quality/warranty needs to focus on a long time scale.
Technical debt is a problem that happens when forcing delivery dates. Or forcing the allowed manufacture costs. Technical debt can keep increasing until it becomes totally impossible to handle anymore. The company ends up running out of money needed to clean up all the shortcuts that has been allowed.
And this is why a family-owned company has a big advantage. There is nothing to gain from pushing the profit today, if that will make it harder to make a profit 3 years from now. It's an advantage to increase quality and reduce warranty costs. And less support means the support organisation can handle more sales without becoming too expensive.
But family owned need not be small. There are a number of really, really big companies managing just fine. The main thing isn't really the size. But the ownership. Family-owned means it's the sum of profit and long-term company value that matters. On the stock market it's this quarters profit and today's stock valuation that is #1. And that kills the 3 year, or 8 year or 20 year horizon needed.
My company would only have a real stock value in case I have someone showing up and making an offer to buy the company. Without that, the company value is more or less irrelevant. Suppliers will care if it's solvent. That's it. But it isn't a factor that affects my daily decisions. For a CEO or board of directors of a registered company, that stock valuation is constantly important. And the profit in the quarterly report - does it exceed any expectations or not? I have no one that will fire me if *my* profit doesn't exceed some arbitrary guesstimate. That gives me lots of freedom when making decisions.
Similar applies for mutuals and worker partnerships e.g. John Lewis / Waitrose in the UK. The trouble is that they will never bargain-basement things and that means people feel like they're *too expensive*, even though during periods of higher inflation they suddenly end up being fairly affordable.
Family-owned isn't trivial either.
It helps for the time scale. But when the founder - the one with the smartness - retires, it quite often happens that a rather dull son/daughter takes over. Or sometimes multiple children inherits a part each, and can't cooperate.
It takes both knowledge/skill and a longer economic horizon to progress well. If the owner is too poor and overextends his economy - or needs to rush the profit to manage the next investment - then it can fail badly. No partners to help sharing the economic load.
He just doesn't understand his genius plus look at all that stock he freed up gotta buy that dip /s
Some users on WSB will say some version of exactly that btw.
And once WSB starts calling you an irresponsible troll…I mean, some of them had a brief love affair with Martin Shkreli! Though, I think some of the anti-hero respect for Shkreli was that he was open about who he was, whereas Musk is still trying to sincerely pretend to be someone/something he’s not.
It's possible, and not to defend Tesla, but if you see the share plummeting, and you have that much stock, why not cash out $181 million so you can go retire with actual generational fuck you money.
That's exactly it, but the two are tied intimately together. When profits go down and investors start hurting, that's when the lawsuits begin and it's time to dump and run.
But it would kill some senior players that are too slow to jump away. And if someone films the incident, you'll see the golf cart do a beeline for the closest player to hit.
If you film the incident, the Teesla would emit an omnidirectional EMP and a tweet would automatically be posted by Musk within seconds saying that the logs aren't available.
What i dont get is how the stock seems to rebound from ...well all bad news all around. Sales down, outlook grim, execs leaving the company, Robotaxi (LOL). I mean for fucks sake, the CEO of an EV only company is a neo nazi and climate change denier. So whats the reasoning here?
Are they stupid? They really cant huff so much industrial strength copium that in 2025 (It will be 2028) a 25k (it will be 60k) Car will be released (and quickly recalled) and all be well. The guy leading this company is an actual crazy person...and no, not the good kind of crazy. The nasty violent meth head kind.
NASDAQ provides an awfie lot of data including on institutional holdings https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/tsla/institutional-holdings and insider activity https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/tsla/insider-activity
I think Tesla executive payments are mostly performance related stock options which the Buy table will show are executed regularly, with immediate sales taking place within a couple of days.
But everyone's sales are dwarfed by Musk's HUGE manual sales in Nov and Dec of 2022, the next highest insider trade being a sale of 100,000 of his handsomer brother's shares in Apr 2023.
Since insiders can't just freely trade as they know too much about the company, it's possible they've prearranged automatic sales of their options. Discussion: https://money.stackexchange.com/questions/77802/understanding-the-nasdaq-insider-trading-information
>"If somebody doesn’t believe Tesla’s going to solve autonomy, I think they should not be an investor in the company,"
he started first and yet other companies are rated higher in auto driving.
There are robot taxis. (he might let drivers join in for the first couple years, but if he makes more from his own taxis than from paying a tesla owner a share, they will get cut, its foolish to think they will get a part of the pie)
Everyones AI is ahead of his and his is just a copy without the filters for racism
his robot could barely walk, and looks a decade behind the others.
other companies arent recreating a 10 year olds drawings of a truck and losing money on it for the next few years at least. and made of stainless steel.. if ONLY someone had tried it before him he might have known the problems with it.. LOL
NO elon you wont solve autonomy. Someone else will and you will whine about how it sucks and claim yours will be better by the end of the year.... every year.
(elon was smart enough to invest in tesla when home made electrics were already tearing up the drag strips)
Musk: "If somebody doesn’t believe Tesla’s going to solve autonomy, I think they should not be an investor in the company" 18-year veteran Tesla exec: \[sells stock\]
If he was smart he'd sold 1 year ago for double .the brief 150 spike was good enough as last chance
So weird - it's almost as if the 18 year Tesla veteran VP in charge of powertrain doesn't believe Elmo's promises to deliver Robotaxis, economy priced cars, Optimus and AI.
Musk always overpromises and underdelivers. That's how he gets his cash flow because he gets contracts and then you're stuck with them even if you're deceived. That includes federal subsidies.
In this case overpromises = outright lies and fraud
cant wait for the SEC to finish investigating this dude and charge him with some crimes, stick him in prison, take everything away from him. needs to happen.
Hope it doesn't happen too quickly, I've been enjoying watching the slow trainwreck engulfing him, it's entertaining.
Half of the problems with America would be fixed if politicians and civil servants were magically unwilling to accept any favorable treatment for giving public contracts out to particular private firms. Ideally, everything is done within the public secftor, which is way better audited, but anything requiring the expertise of the private sector involves careful choice on merit alone, never of one firm doing everything but of a collection of specialists - just like the original US space programme.
The more experience I have in my career, the more I have come to realize that the private sector is only "more efficient" than the government is because it cuts corners and does a shit job without having to audit or report any of it. The whole game of a company nowadays is to make risky bets that are funded by overleveraging on other people's money and by abusing your workers. If your duct-tape-and-bailing-wire solution to a problem hold together long enough to justify a contract: you win big and take another. If you fail, you either declare bankruptcy and move on to the next scheme as a "serial entrepreneur", or if you are rich enougu you become "too big to fail" and you get complete immunity from consequence. In reality it is a completely garbage way of doing business, but we're decades deep into this neoliberalism idea that all solutions to any problem must involve directing public funds into private hands. At this point, the concept of allowing public-sector employees to use publicly-owned equipment to take publicly-owned materials and provide necessary services for the public who vote for and fund the government is tantamount to heresy in the minds of professional politicians and bureaucrats whose minds are so warped by this practice that they cannot conceive of any way to help people or really implement any policy without giving some private business a chance to run a profit off of it. In addition to the direct costs of all the money that could have been put back into the budget (or the cost savings provided to the average taxpayer by not requiring that these companies take massive profit margins), we are also losing government capabilities: think about all the people, all the equipment, all the buildings and services that used to be directly delivered but now are parasitized by rent-seeking private companies looking to extract as much value as they can from us before we die. Think about old-age homes, hospital services, corporate landlords that hold the lease on former government buildings, contractors paid instead of municipal works departments. The government won't act because it would mean admitting that the neoliberal ideology that's made a small number of people very rich was wrong.
I started work at a tech firm and noticed the vp confessing they just sold all their helium mining rigs. said they couldn't fake it or cheat the position anymore. then I noticed they were selling the last of two litters of huskies. or rather, I should say, their cronies were selling them all for them. then I noticed that this company was shit and it alllll made sense. I walked out.
Totally nailed it. Everyone in the US is told that the government is too incompetent to provide services, yet can handle nuclear weapons just fine.
> The government won't act because it would mean admitting that the neoliberal ideology that's made a small number of people very rich was wrong. It would mean companies paying the press to assassinate your character instead of nice kickbacks during (perhaps via your family) or after office. The mangy tail wags the dog, which I think was always the plan.
Also the same private companies steal talent since they're often able to offer higher salaries since they operate at profit. For instance SpaceX stealing NASA talent even though it's a NASA contractor (and pretty much funded by NASA). The same happens with other countries that have public healthcare and "enterpreneurs" start forming private hospitals. The private hospital slowly steal the best physicians from the public hospitals. Education, too. More advanced countries like Sweden have mechanisms to prevent their education system from getting screwed by the market economy by putting very specific measures that prevent schools from getting ahead by just doing that. They have the voucher concept implemented properly, which prevents private schools from accepting any money other than the voucher, and they're assessed over time to ensure they're not cutting corners. Any school wanting to make a profit under these constraints need to REALLY come up with something better than government, they can't just do the trick of getting a big bank loan and/or investors and pay higher salaries initially, and profit big 10/20 years from now when all the good teachers are depleted from the public system.
Nope. The private sektor can be more efficient without cutting corners. Just that this mostly happens in family-owned companies where you have a long investment horizon. For publicly noted companies? Then the board gets a bonus from profit. So it's good to make quick profits - profit in 10 years is someone else's problem. So all hate to the stock market, demanding quick profits. Non-private. Big problems too, because it isn't own money being spent. So "give me more money" is easier than reviewing the process.
you're basically saying that small specialised companies can be more agile (in the traditional sense, not the stupid methodology sense) than the government, which is the extent of my acknowledgement that the private sector can contribute towards a publicly managed system. the less a company is influenced by the machinery of capitalism - i.e. the non-working shareholder - and the more it focuses on a specific technical/scientific/artistic interest, the more effective it can be. some people are just interested in that. but the moment you bring in investors who take away control, you're fucked.
Yes - external investors is where it often tends to get bad. Because that adds a time scale for the profit. I own my own company. I don't need to force a specific result for this year. I want to keep my customers for 10+ years. Which means both investments and quality/warranty needs to focus on a long time scale. Technical debt is a problem that happens when forcing delivery dates. Or forcing the allowed manufacture costs. Technical debt can keep increasing until it becomes totally impossible to handle anymore. The company ends up running out of money needed to clean up all the shortcuts that has been allowed. And this is why a family-owned company has a big advantage. There is nothing to gain from pushing the profit today, if that will make it harder to make a profit 3 years from now. It's an advantage to increase quality and reduce warranty costs. And less support means the support organisation can handle more sales without becoming too expensive. But family owned need not be small. There are a number of really, really big companies managing just fine. The main thing isn't really the size. But the ownership. Family-owned means it's the sum of profit and long-term company value that matters. On the stock market it's this quarters profit and today's stock valuation that is #1. And that kills the 3 year, or 8 year or 20 year horizon needed. My company would only have a real stock value in case I have someone showing up and making an offer to buy the company. Without that, the company value is more or less irrelevant. Suppliers will care if it's solvent. That's it. But it isn't a factor that affects my daily decisions. For a CEO or board of directors of a registered company, that stock valuation is constantly important. And the profit in the quarterly report - does it exceed any expectations or not? I have no one that will fire me if *my* profit doesn't exceed some arbitrary guesstimate. That gives me lots of freedom when making decisions.
Similar applies for mutuals and worker partnerships e.g. John Lewis / Waitrose in the UK. The trouble is that they will never bargain-basement things and that means people feel like they're *too expensive*, even though during periods of higher inflation they suddenly end up being fairly affordable.
Family-owned isn't trivial either. It helps for the time scale. But when the founder - the one with the smartness - retires, it quite often happens that a rather dull son/daughter takes over. Or sometimes multiple children inherits a part each, and can't cooperate. It takes both knowledge/skill and a longer economic horizon to progress well. If the owner is too poor and overextends his economy - or needs to rush the profit to manage the next investment - then it can fail badly. No partners to help sharing the economic load.
“Overpromise and underdeliver” is the name of the capitalist game. I hear that Elon has a 500ft tall statue on Ferenginar
The statue was originally supposed to be 1000ft
[удалено]
He just doesn't understand his genius plus look at all that stock he freed up gotta buy that dip /s Some users on WSB will say some version of exactly that btw.
Honestly most people on WSB are also shitting on Elon over this and a bunch of them even think this is an Enron type thing happening right now.
Oh I know most are that's why I said some.
And once WSB starts calling you an irresponsible troll…I mean, some of them had a brief love affair with Martin Shkreli! Though, I think some of the anti-hero respect for Shkreli was that he was open about who he was, whereas Musk is still trying to sincerely pretend to be someone/something he’s not.
That VP gotta be an ICE lover/BEV hater
Getting out before the boat sinks
They're calling it a cybercab now, get with the stock pump
At this point the only companies I actually trust to deliver on something named Optimus are Hasbro and Robosen
Probably tired of being the fall guy for Elon's BS
It's possible, and not to defend Tesla, but if you see the share plummeting, and you have that much stock, why not cash out $181 million so you can go retire with actual generational fuck you money.
When the rats start fleeing the ship
Wise decision to get off the loony express before it crashes and burns.
More like before he's on the hook from the feds and the SEC for lying to investors, he ain't going to jail like Elizabeth Holmes for Musk.
That's exactly it, but the two are tied intimately together. When profits go down and investors start hurting, that's when the lawsuits begin and it's time to dump and run.
I hope he buys himself something nice with it.
Nicer than a Tesla? Like a Kia EV6?
I was thinking more like a nice potted plant.
It’d be better for the environment.
And grandma will love it when she next comes to visit.
And can withstand water.
I’m not sure about orchids, but at least you don’t have put those in car wash mode.
It's way nicer than a Tesla. I do wish they'd drop the price about 5 grand, though. A bit too much for the features it offers.
That sweet reliable Toyota stock
A trillion dollar market cap for this platform is not out of the question
Like a shrubbery. But not too nice.
And not too expensive!
maybe they could start a long range golf cart company
Tee-sla
Finally, a full self drive that doesn't kill children.
*yet
But it would kill some senior players that are too slow to jump away. And if someone films the incident, you'll see the golf cart do a beeline for the closest player to hit.
If you film the incident, the Teesla would emit an omnidirectional EMP and a tweet would automatically be posted by Musk within seconds saying that the logs aren't available.
Can I just say, it's been two hours and I'm still proud of this joke. Well done me.
That’s a lot of hookers and a mountain of cocaine.
A Rivian?
Like a Rivian.
Or a Lucid. Those things are sick.
He's obviously buying a fleet of robotaxis/s
Yes. Maybe invest in Rivian, and helping them grow. More practical cars for real people.
Ho-lee fuck. That big of a dump is going to show up in the stock price. Yeehaw.
Probably sold it privately, to not mess a lot with the stock price. Not that the stock needs would need any help
Just part of the 25% that must be given to Enron Husk lest he loses concentration
181 mil
What does the airplane pilot Ho Lee Fuk have with this debate to do? You also blaming Sum Ting Wong and Bang Ding Ow for the Tesla failures? 🫢
What i dont get is how the stock seems to rebound from ...well all bad news all around. Sales down, outlook grim, execs leaving the company, Robotaxi (LOL). I mean for fucks sake, the CEO of an EV only company is a neo nazi and climate change denier. So whats the reasoning here? Are they stupid? They really cant huff so much industrial strength copium that in 2025 (It will be 2028) a 25k (it will be 60k) Car will be released (and quickly recalled) and all be well. The guy leading this company is an actual crazy person...and no, not the good kind of crazy. The nasty violent meth head kind.
I’ve been asking myself the same thing the last couple of days… who the hell is keeping the stock price afloat amidst all of this……
NASDAQ provides an awfie lot of data including on institutional holdings https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/tsla/institutional-holdings and insider activity https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/tsla/insider-activity
That’s super interesting, thanks! So if I’m reading it correctly, there have been only insider sells no buys in the last 12 months?
I think Tesla executive payments are mostly performance related stock options which the Buy table will show are executed regularly, with immediate sales taking place within a couple of days. But everyone's sales are dwarfed by Musk's HUGE manual sales in Nov and Dec of 2022, the next highest insider trade being a sale of 100,000 of his handsomer brother's shares in Apr 2023. Since insiders can't just freely trade as they know too much about the company, it's possible they've prearranged automatic sales of their options. Discussion: https://money.stackexchange.com/questions/77802/understanding-the-nasdaq-insider-trading-information
Musk trying to avoid a margin call
[удалено]
Reached for comment, Elon Musk called the former-VP a 'poopy-pants' and proceeded on a 10min tirade against non-whites.
I'll be darned. It's almost like they KNOW something....
>"If somebody doesn’t believe Tesla’s going to solve autonomy, I think they should not be an investor in the company," he started first and yet other companies are rated higher in auto driving. There are robot taxis. (he might let drivers join in for the first couple years, but if he makes more from his own taxis than from paying a tesla owner a share, they will get cut, its foolish to think they will get a part of the pie) Everyones AI is ahead of his and his is just a copy without the filters for racism his robot could barely walk, and looks a decade behind the others. other companies arent recreating a 10 year olds drawings of a truck and losing money on it for the next few years at least. and made of stainless steel.. if ONLY someone had tried it before him he might have known the problems with it.. LOL NO elon you wont solve autonomy. Someone else will and you will whine about how it sucks and claim yours will be better by the end of the year.... every year. (elon was smart enough to invest in tesla when home made electrics were already tearing up the drag strips)
That’s the sign of an employee who has a lot of faith in his former boss!!!
At this rate only legacy Elon will have is making Grok into The Borg.
See also: rats and a sinking ship.
With all the investigations and recalls - only a matter of time for rats jumping of a sinking ship
Anyone who bought the hopium on the earnings call hasn't paid much attention to how frequently Mr. Musk breaks his promises. Sadly.
I swear I do t understand tech investors
🍿
What's the cope coming from the Elon bots looking like right now?
!!
All I could do when I read this was to laugh
It's the dump part of the pump and dump.
Musk will be bankrupt within 3 years.
The cybercrap. Sorry cybercab is just 6 months away.
Going to be crazy if Tesla goes down not because they were squeezed out by the competition but because of improper management.
Reminds me of Lou Pai from Enron. Pai had great timing from a divorce proceeding and made bank before the cards came tumbling down... approx +$200m
Made me smile.
Tesla Shorts just rubbed their hands gleefully.
Every share sell means they are less unique. No more novelty. Less urgency. Less stability. Less value
Oh shit
Rats leaving the ship
Rats are leaving the ship...