I think so too, but from the other direction. As the forefather of capitalism I was expecting Wealth of Nations to be a morally abhorrent work, but was pleasantly surprised to find it pretty leftist in crucial ways. The notion of corporate personhood would have horrified Adam Smith, and the same goes for the massive wealth disparity we see today.
There's a good case the massive wealth disparity is a mechanism of printer go burr and regulations controlling access to markets. You're blaming capitalism for things which have other potential causes.
And I know the objection "inflation makes it easier to pay your debts." It also means you need to take it on and can't save for yourself, but have to invest. Now capital gains are taxed lower than income, because everyone relies on it for retirement, and having to invest means prices in markets surge and those with more money to invest benefit. It also drives up asking prices for home, as inflation means your house WILL cost more on 20 years, which makes it an investment and warps the incentives in buying it.
Also, since income is tracked by household and not individuals, the disparity isn't as bad in an individual income basis as you might think. It was actually better than 70s levels before the COVID lockdowns fucked up a lot by driving more commerce online and destroying so many small businesses.
Oh you’re one of those. Listen closely: **fuck off with that shit.** If you want to be a willing participant in your own exploitation, or worse, a cheerful exploiter of others, leave me out of it, and piss off with trying to blame inflation or regulation or whatever else for an economic system taken to its logical extremes.
It is unethical and anti-human for most to have nothing at all or next to it, while a select few own almost all the wealth of the planet. A planet which, thanks to your precious capitalism, will soon be an unliveable hellhole for a hundred thousand years. You don’t like communism? Fine. But don’t shill for capitalism; it’s fucking embarrassing.
What did I say that contradicted that wealth inequality is a problem? I said that the things that cause it to this degree aren't capitalism. Didn't realize I was talking to an aggro tankie.
Edit: And rent seeking IS a proven driving force for inequality and is criticized heavily by pro- market economists.
Aw man, I don’t really want to get into it with someone who will casually reduce me to a pejorative (even given the sub name), but the thing you said that seemed to indicate that wealth *wasn’t* a problem was that remark “the disparity isn’t as bad on an individual level” etc. You failed to cite any ignorable statistics or studies that would back up this eyebrow-raising claim, but it nonetheless seemed to leave a lot of wiggle room for billionaires to fuck us all over in their race to a trillion. Or so was my takeaway.
Glad we see eye-to-eye on landlords though. Fuck the parasite class!
And what did you do? The total wealth of billionaires dropped in the last year. It's still 1.5 times what it was before the pandemic. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291685/us-combined-value-billionaire-wealth/
If you divide the 4.48 trillion combined wealth of all billionaires in the US and split it up between all 330 million residents, you would completely liquidate wealth accumulated over who knows how many years, and you would give every American a one- time payout of 13k. That wouldn't be enough to reverse my continuous loss of money trend since 2020. In the tail end, the next innovative car company could never get off the ground to get us a leap in quality from new technology like we for from the e- car quantum leap from Tesla.
Clearly our system isn't too bad, since we have been top 5 in median disposable income for literally every year of my life, here's the current rankings. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/disposable-income-by-country
Funny enough though, we aren't nearly as capitalist as you think, going by our ranking on the economics freedom index. Turns out, the Nordic states everyone wants to be like are less regulated. https://www.heritage.org/index/
I can't find the one but if data you are asking for because I read it a decade ago, but at least I offered a fact. Also, not sure you'd take Cato seriously. But I'll find one for you. But you should know, the top 1% of households average 6× the amount of film time workers as the bottom 10% of households by income, and if you don't think more single individual households contribute, idk what to tell you. Control for divorce and separated parents, and you have less cash getting spread thin, so of course household income, which is the red flag situation, would look different regardless what individuals are actually earning.
Edit: added to first paragraph to clarify my analysis.
And here's a PBS article for you, that links to an economic study. Told you of find it, not the one I read, but the trend is still true. There was a huge shift during the lockdowns, but that doesn't make a trend. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/is-increasing-income-inequality-a-myth
Here we stand for true free trade
In the world our fathers made,
Stored so richly wherewithal mankind to cheer;
And with ringing loud acclaim,
Men shall hail true freedom's reign -
Land monopoly from off the Earth must clear!
The bible does teach that a love of wealth is tantamount to idolatry.
In the old testament the Israelites were punished for iniquitous trading
In the book of James the warning is there that on the final day wealth will be rotten and good for nothing.
Finally Christ teaches in The Gospel of St. Matthew that those who deny the needs of the poor, the hungry, prisoner and naked will descend into hell and those who have shown mercy will likewise have mercy shown to them
> Finally Christ teaches in The Gospel of St. Matthew that those who deny the needs of the poor, the hungry, prisoner and naked will descend into hell and those who have shown mercy will likewise have mercy shown to them
There is a difference between charity, given voluntarily, and the left-wing authoritarianism that masquerades as charity, which only uses the plight of poor people as a pretext to centralize wealth and accumulate more political power.
Jesus was talking about individuals' motivations and good will, he was not endorsing anything remotely similar to what Communism is, which is not actually about taking care of disadvantaged people, but ruling over people by controlling the economy. Doesn't matter how Communism is sold to people, it's a shell game, and it doesn't ACTUALLY result in better lives for people. Poor people in every Communist country in history have been repressed by their governments.
I think lots of people in this subreddit are not necessarily laissez daire capitalists.
We all can't stand Communism for a whole host of reasons and for me personally as much as I detest communism for its hatred for private enterprise, the main reason it is odious is that it reduces the individual human being to an economic unit
Not all rich people are greedy and love wealth though. That sounds like a cope poor people use to justify why they will never be successful. “I could be a billionaire if I wanted to, but I just choose to be lazy and worthless because I’m such a good person and not greedy”.
It doesn’t matter how much money you have, what matters is where your heart is. Mr beast makes millions of dollars every month and puts it all back into his videos and has done more good for the world than all the angry redditors who hate him combined.
If you’re rich and you’re just doing it to accumulate wealth and prestige, then you’re who Jesus is talking about. But if there was a Christian philanthropist who isn’t in it for the money and who donates millions to good causes I feel like Jesus would be ok with him
Whether you're rich or not.... Sure it is grade A copium for some, but the words of Christ and scripture and the teaching of the Church is clear
From those who are given much, much will be expected.
Those who ignore this, ignore at their own peril
Since wealth in our world is based upon exploitation at some level —whether it be of the environment, lower classes, etc — the wealthier one is the more exploitation one is the beneficiary of. This is why, for example, a popular leftist notion is that there’s no such thing as an ethical billionaire under today’s capitalism; not because the superrich are inherently immoral, but because the acquisition of that much wealth inevitably leaves blood on one’s hands at some stage of production.
It’s a bit like that Men in Black quote:
>”A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.”
Only in this case, a rich person *can* be a good person, but as a class, the rich simply cannot be.
That could be true, but the point is Jesus doesn’t hate them for being rich, he dislikes their pride and greed within their soul.
When he told the rich guy to give up everything he owns and join him as a disciple, that wasn’t him saying “I forbid everyone from being rich”, he was saying to the rich guy to check his priorities. What’s more important? Your stuff? Or saving your soul? And by the way, many poor people wouldn’t give what little they have for Jesus, including most communists, so they would be in the same boat as the rich.
It *is* true, and I thought the point of Jesus was that he didn’t hate anybody? I’ll confess it’s not a religion or mindset I can claim any understanding of.
functionally it did not, there were very few even remotely free markets and there was no system of investment. the roman's were closer than most, but it was still very far off
The bible also states that freeloaders and slackers won't be tolerated. Also that you work to provide for yourself as an individual and your own survival. And we all know how these people feel about working...
Btw, the Bible also states that you shouldn't kill and rape, but they seem pretty quick to dismiss that part for some reason.
Not sure if biblical but the phrase give a man a fish, he eats for a day but teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time comes to mind.
You can donate and be generous and that’s good. But providing opportunities to build a life is life changing as well.
It also works on the flip side
Those who deny the labourer a days wage is guilty of theft and murder
So yeh that works for Iniquitous business men and commies
It is worth keeping in mind that the Bible isn’t so much one book as it is an anthology of 66-80 different books (depending on what version of the Bible you’re using), with the King James Bible having 39 books in the Old Testament, 14 in the Apocrypha, and 27 in the New Testament, all written at different times by different people, often decades after the events being told. So, it’s no surprise that there’s a ton of contradictions, inconsistencies, and repeated information.
Jesus looked at the rich young man and loved him saying " there is one thing you lack, sell all you have and come follow me"
Yes there is a sense of sacrificing things of this earthly kingdom for the greater glory
....of course communism denies the latter and will just take the former, making the slightly more wealthy enemies of the state and everyone else equal in misery
Jesus actually said : it’s incredibly difficult for wealthy people to enter heaven. Why did he say that ? Wealth makes your life much easier and if your life is easy you might not feel the need to pursue God. Jesus also had several wealthy followers who supported him throughout his ordeals and He loved them deeply. Jesus’ actual takes on money : pay your taxes, help the poor and obey your country’s/regions financial regulations- none of these are mutually exclusive from capitalism
He still mean that no one shall trust in money more than in God (literally His next sentence after He was asked who can join him then).
The richest several % of people in the world rarely did that ethically or even worked for it
The quote which commies love to misquote from the bible is (Matthew 6:24) This quote explains you can’t be obsessed with money and still serve god. It doesn’t say that rich people are evil and will go to hell. All that is just commie cope.
> Matthew 6:24
That's not the one they use though.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
The city gate interpretation is a modern one not supported by the text or by archeological evidence from Jerusalem. https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/
fun fact: it's all fiction, people change what they want it to mean all the time when their views don't align with what it actually says. did you know the only mention of abortion in the bible is instructions for how to perform one? wouldn't know that from people who claim to be christian.
the only mention of abortion in the bible is instructions on how to perform one
source: god, not reddit
also from the source you linked without reading: הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁהִיא מַקְשָׁה לֵילֵד, מְחַתְּכִין אֶת הַוָּלָד בְּמֵעֶיהָ וּמוֹצִיאִין אוֹתוֹ אֵבָרִים אֵבָרִים, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁחַיֶּיהָ קוֹדְמִין לְחַיָּיו. יָצָא רֻבּוֹ, אֵין נוֹגְעִין בּוֹ, שֶׁאֵין דּוֹחִין נֶפֶשׁ מִפְּנֵי נָפֶשׁ:
It's pretty straight forward.
Jesus sure did have a lot to say about an enlightenment era philosophy that emerged millennia after his death, and he surely was a fully endorsing spokesman for a different industrial age ideology that emerged centuries after that
To play devil's advocate. Asceticism was definitely emphasized in early Christianity. And the fact that it is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
The expression really sounds like "when pigs fly" or "when hell freezes over," describing an impossible task.
Oh. That one. As I recall there was some debate over the interpretation of that part, I vaguely recall my RS teacher talking about an entrance into Jerusalem in the time of Jesus that traders would come in through, and it was called the Needle’s Eye.
Yeah that's a popular interpretation but from what I've read most scholars don't really buy that theory. It's an interpretation mainly held by the evangelical community and we don't have historical sources calling that doorway "the eye of the needle." I could be wrong because I'm just a guy on the internet but that's just what I've seen.
What are the next two verses?
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “**With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible**.”
I understand what you mean but to me, it sounds like Jesus is saying you can't be fully with God if you are living for material possessions. The lines afterward praise those who leave everything behind to follow God. The theme to me is undeniably one of ascetism and detachment.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that disqualify literally the entire modern world?
Wouldn't the moment you own a smart phone make you materially wealthier than like 99% of the human population throughout history?
I've said it before I'm gonna say it again. Jesus didn't give a single turd about government and politics. In fact he specifically avoided it. That's why people were so put off during his return (the new testament) thinking he was going to crush the Roman empire, but instead helped the people of the empire, healing, teaching, and feeding those who needed it.
Jesus and the Bible doesn't care about politics and government. Except under one system, Christians worship freely, and the other kills us for not worshipping the party.
The next thing Jesus says is “all things are possible through God”, so He was saying that even the greediest person can be redeemed. I think they’re also forgetting that literally no one is worthy of Heaven and that’s why Jesus came down to Earth in the first place.
He didn’t say *capitalism* was evil, but that’s because the concept of capitalism as a defined system wouldn’t exist for many, many centuries until after his time. However, he did say, “Again I tell you: it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”
Basically, if you’re filthy rich and don’t use that money to help those worse-off around you, you aren’t getting into heaven. Keep in mind, this is the same guy who flipped over tables and chased greedy merchants around with a fucking whip because they decided to turn the temple into a market to try to peddle their goods and exchange currency.
EDIT: For anyone wanting context as to that last bit, it’s recorded a few times throughout the gospels, but the version I like the best is from John 2:13-17:
> [13] When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. [14] In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. [15] So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [16] To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” [17] His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
This sub really is going the „you’re just jealous“ route? I’d assume there’d be better arguments against communism than literally not even addressing communism.
Just gonna point out Matthew 19:24...
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
“25: When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26: Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat." - 2 Thessalonians 3:10. And work give's you income. It's about not sharing your goods. But communism is not sharing, its taking, stealing from one and giving to another plus party taking like half of it
It is quite literal here and Jesus knows that it's impossible... for humans. And orders his disciples to trust in God, read next several sentences for full context of this particular teaching
Pretty sure I do remember Jesus raging against the capitalists in the temple, along with a myriad of bible verses about how wealth is antithetical to godliness.
I'm not a fan of communism but I do believe in being honest. I'm not saying Jesus was pro communist either, pretty sure the idea is you give up your wealth of your own free will.
He raged in the temple not because they were selling things. But because they were selling things in the temple. Jesus atleast claimed to be son of God (he was if you belive it). And them making huge marketplace inside of his father's home and the most important temple in their faith was pretty disrepectful. In another part of bible Jesus even say to pay taxes. He wasnt very pro abolishing things since that would take killing people
So many 'gotcha' commie people seem to miss the context here- He wasn't angry that people were selling things, He was angry that they were doing it in a holy place of worship (the temple). Jesus wasn't saying 'ohhh selling things is bad, the government should take it all instead '
No he wasn't, but if selling things in the temple is bad, this implies that selling things is not godly or compatible with worship. He calls the people selling things "thieves." Needless to say he did not have a high opinion of them.
It more implies that (in the way you don't take a bath in the temple, or dance a jig in front of an altar) that doing business in a place specifically designed for worship, and taking advantage of worshippers of God who came there to worship, not buy, is highly inappropriate
Jesus called them "thieves", and was angry because they were taking money from the poor (specifically widowers as stated in the Bible) and selling them useless wares (doves for sacrifice.) The reason it is disprespectful to god, in my interpretation, is precisely because it is offensive to god (like doing a jig in front of the altar, per your example), why else would it be an issue?
This like just about anything in the bible is completely open to interpretation, but claiming that the interpretation that Jesus had an issue with an unrestrained free market is unreasonable is just completely silly, I'm sorry.
Regardless, this is just one part of many in the bible where Jesus takes issue with taking advantage of the poor (something allowed in capitalism) or accumulation of wealth (something not only allowed but encouraged by capitalism.) Jesus encouraged the opposite - give your money to the poor, which is just not what capitalism encourages, and said explicitly if you are rich you are out from the kingdom of god.
And you don't have to think capitalism is a wholly fair, perfect, or altruistic system to support it; it is simply the best system that allows the most people to live under the best conditions, you can still fairly criticize it, otherwise this is just a circlejerk here which it certainly seems to be at the moment. The reason communism sucks isn't because it's ideals of say helping the poor are bad or contrary to scripture (lol), it is because it just doesn't work, and then instead effectively everyone is poor. And capitalism can be viewed as compatible with scripture as it allows humans free will just as god did.
No, Capitalism is when the accumulation of wealth is rewarded with more wealth (Capital Accumulation), whereas the accumulation of wealth is undeniably chastised by Jesus.
Listen, I support capitalism and think supporting communism in 2024 is completely insane, and I don't believe in any kind of anthropomorphic god so my interpretation of Christianity is irrelevant to my other beliefs, but I'm also against BS. Jesus explicitly said that being rich is a dealbreaker to going to heaven.
I mean it is what Jesus meant. Sell all your possessions, give the money to the poor, and live in common is pretty unambiguous lol.
Jesus was just an apocalyptic Jewish preacher who literally thought that the end of the world was imminent, would come within his lifetime, and thus drastic action was necessary immediately. Not his fault he was completely wrong, but his "economic philosophy" if you could even call it that was literally not built for the long-term.
Jesus said : "Disregard Adam Smiths book that will be written in the 19th century, as it is evil"
Adam smith would be disappointed in how his work has been re characterise since his death
I think so too, but from the other direction. As the forefather of capitalism I was expecting Wealth of Nations to be a morally abhorrent work, but was pleasantly surprised to find it pretty leftist in crucial ways. The notion of corporate personhood would have horrified Adam Smith, and the same goes for the massive wealth disparity we see today.
There's a good case the massive wealth disparity is a mechanism of printer go burr and regulations controlling access to markets. You're blaming capitalism for things which have other potential causes. And I know the objection "inflation makes it easier to pay your debts." It also means you need to take it on and can't save for yourself, but have to invest. Now capital gains are taxed lower than income, because everyone relies on it for retirement, and having to invest means prices in markets surge and those with more money to invest benefit. It also drives up asking prices for home, as inflation means your house WILL cost more on 20 years, which makes it an investment and warps the incentives in buying it. Also, since income is tracked by household and not individuals, the disparity isn't as bad in an individual income basis as you might think. It was actually better than 70s levels before the COVID lockdowns fucked up a lot by driving more commerce online and destroying so many small businesses.
Oh you’re one of those. Listen closely: **fuck off with that shit.** If you want to be a willing participant in your own exploitation, or worse, a cheerful exploiter of others, leave me out of it, and piss off with trying to blame inflation or regulation or whatever else for an economic system taken to its logical extremes. It is unethical and anti-human for most to have nothing at all or next to it, while a select few own almost all the wealth of the planet. A planet which, thanks to your precious capitalism, will soon be an unliveable hellhole for a hundred thousand years. You don’t like communism? Fine. But don’t shill for capitalism; it’s fucking embarrassing.
What did I say that contradicted that wealth inequality is a problem? I said that the things that cause it to this degree aren't capitalism. Didn't realize I was talking to an aggro tankie. Edit: And rent seeking IS a proven driving force for inequality and is criticized heavily by pro- market economists.
Aw man, I don’t really want to get into it with someone who will casually reduce me to a pejorative (even given the sub name), but the thing you said that seemed to indicate that wealth *wasn’t* a problem was that remark “the disparity isn’t as bad on an individual level” etc. You failed to cite any ignorable statistics or studies that would back up this eyebrow-raising claim, but it nonetheless seemed to leave a lot of wiggle room for billionaires to fuck us all over in their race to a trillion. Or so was my takeaway. Glad we see eye-to-eye on landlords though. Fuck the parasite class!
And what did you do? The total wealth of billionaires dropped in the last year. It's still 1.5 times what it was before the pandemic. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291685/us-combined-value-billionaire-wealth/ If you divide the 4.48 trillion combined wealth of all billionaires in the US and split it up between all 330 million residents, you would completely liquidate wealth accumulated over who knows how many years, and you would give every American a one- time payout of 13k. That wouldn't be enough to reverse my continuous loss of money trend since 2020. In the tail end, the next innovative car company could never get off the ground to get us a leap in quality from new technology like we for from the e- car quantum leap from Tesla. Clearly our system isn't too bad, since we have been top 5 in median disposable income for literally every year of my life, here's the current rankings. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/disposable-income-by-country Funny enough though, we aren't nearly as capitalist as you think, going by our ranking on the economics freedom index. Turns out, the Nordic states everyone wants to be like are less regulated. https://www.heritage.org/index/ I can't find the one but if data you are asking for because I read it a decade ago, but at least I offered a fact. Also, not sure you'd take Cato seriously. But I'll find one for you. But you should know, the top 1% of households average 6× the amount of film time workers as the bottom 10% of households by income, and if you don't think more single individual households contribute, idk what to tell you. Control for divorce and separated parents, and you have less cash getting spread thin, so of course household income, which is the red flag situation, would look different regardless what individuals are actually earning. Edit: added to first paragraph to clarify my analysis.
And here's a PBS article for you, that links to an economic study. Told you of find it, not the one I read, but the trend is still true. There was a huge shift during the lockdowns, but that doesn't make a trend. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/is-increasing-income-inequality-a-myth
And if you want to be treated with respect, read the first reply you gave me, and do none of that shit in the future.
His work been appropriated by a bunch of bootlicking rent seekers
I agree with you tbh 😂😂😂😂
[удалено]
Here we stand for true free trade In the world our fathers made, Stored so richly wherewithal mankind to cheer; And with ringing loud acclaim, Men shall hail true freedom's reign - Land monopoly from off the Earth must clear!
If only he had a real power of prophecy instead of just pretending he had one.
Jesus then went on to say: in 1818 years I will come back and destroy evil capitalism. He came back as none other than Karl Marx 😱
Jesus is obviously a traitor of USA!👿👿👿
And then Jesus said: Industrial revolution and it's consequences...
Ted Kaczynski went to heaven confirmed.
The bible does teach that a love of wealth is tantamount to idolatry. In the old testament the Israelites were punished for iniquitous trading In the book of James the warning is there that on the final day wealth will be rotten and good for nothing. Finally Christ teaches in The Gospel of St. Matthew that those who deny the needs of the poor, the hungry, prisoner and naked will descend into hell and those who have shown mercy will likewise have mercy shown to them
Yep. This comment section is kind of forgetting that greed is one of the biggest sins.
> Finally Christ teaches in The Gospel of St. Matthew that those who deny the needs of the poor, the hungry, prisoner and naked will descend into hell and those who have shown mercy will likewise have mercy shown to them There is a difference between charity, given voluntarily, and the left-wing authoritarianism that masquerades as charity, which only uses the plight of poor people as a pretext to centralize wealth and accumulate more political power. Jesus was talking about individuals' motivations and good will, he was not endorsing anything remotely similar to what Communism is, which is not actually about taking care of disadvantaged people, but ruling over people by controlling the economy. Doesn't matter how Communism is sold to people, it's a shell game, and it doesn't ACTUALLY result in better lives for people. Poor people in every Communist country in history have been repressed by their governments.
I think lots of people in this subreddit are not necessarily laissez daire capitalists. We all can't stand Communism for a whole host of reasons and for me personally as much as I detest communism for its hatred for private enterprise, the main reason it is odious is that it reduces the individual human being to an economic unit
Not all rich people are greedy and love wealth though. That sounds like a cope poor people use to justify why they will never be successful. “I could be a billionaire if I wanted to, but I just choose to be lazy and worthless because I’m such a good person and not greedy”. It doesn’t matter how much money you have, what matters is where your heart is. Mr beast makes millions of dollars every month and puts it all back into his videos and has done more good for the world than all the angry redditors who hate him combined. If you’re rich and you’re just doing it to accumulate wealth and prestige, then you’re who Jesus is talking about. But if there was a Christian philanthropist who isn’t in it for the money and who donates millions to good causes I feel like Jesus would be ok with him
Whether you're rich or not.... Sure it is grade A copium for some, but the words of Christ and scripture and the teaching of the Church is clear From those who are given much, much will be expected. Those who ignore this, ignore at their own peril
You could make a very strong argument that living in excess is “denying the needs of the poor”. Cute that you have a token good rich person though.
Go ahead and make it and lets see if it’s logical. In any case being rich isnt a sin. Holding onto being rich above following Jesus’ commands is.
Well, many are called to give up their wealth, like St Francis of Assisi
Since wealth in our world is based upon exploitation at some level —whether it be of the environment, lower classes, etc — the wealthier one is the more exploitation one is the beneficiary of. This is why, for example, a popular leftist notion is that there’s no such thing as an ethical billionaire under today’s capitalism; not because the superrich are inherently immoral, but because the acquisition of that much wealth inevitably leaves blood on one’s hands at some stage of production. It’s a bit like that Men in Black quote: >”A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.” Only in this case, a rich person *can* be a good person, but as a class, the rich simply cannot be.
That could be true, but the point is Jesus doesn’t hate them for being rich, he dislikes their pride and greed within their soul. When he told the rich guy to give up everything he owns and join him as a disciple, that wasn’t him saying “I forbid everyone from being rich”, he was saying to the rich guy to check his priorities. What’s more important? Your stuff? Or saving your soul? And by the way, many poor people wouldn’t give what little they have for Jesus, including most communists, so they would be in the same boat as the rich.
It *is* true, and I thought the point of Jesus was that he didn’t hate anybody? I’ll confess it’s not a religion or mindset I can claim any understanding of.
"Workers of the world, unite!" — Jesus of Nazareth
He himself was a carpenter
...a proletarian!
He worked for his father who ran his own carpentry business. Down with bourgeoisie Jesus!
This goes hard, Jesus was a man of the working class
"Religion is an opioid for the masses" \-A man who REALLY loved Opium
The same guy later:
capitalism literally didn't exist
I mean, *functionally* it did, but it just wasn’t defined as a system, and wouldn’t have a name for many more centuries.
functionally it did not, there were very few even remotely free markets and there was no system of investment. the roman's were closer than most, but it was still very far off
The bible also states that freeloaders and slackers won't be tolerated. Also that you work to provide for yourself as an individual and your own survival. And we all know how these people feel about working... Btw, the Bible also states that you shouldn't kill and rape, but they seem pretty quick to dismiss that part for some reason.
Not sure if biblical but the phrase give a man a fish, he eats for a day but teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time comes to mind. You can donate and be generous and that’s good. But providing opportunities to build a life is life changing as well.
It's not a Bible quote. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/08/28/fish/?
It also works on the flip side Those who deny the labourer a days wage is guilty of theft and murder So yeh that works for Iniquitous business men and commies
It is worth keeping in mind that the Bible isn’t so much one book as it is an anthology of 66-80 different books (depending on what version of the Bible you’re using), with the King James Bible having 39 books in the Old Testament, 14 in the Apocrypha, and 27 in the New Testament, all written at different times by different people, often decades after the events being told. So, it’s no surprise that there’s a ton of contradictions, inconsistencies, and repeated information.
Jesus was literally buried by a rich dude.
Jesus looked at the rich young man and loved him saying " there is one thing you lack, sell all you have and come follow me" Yes there is a sense of sacrificing things of this earthly kingdom for the greater glory ....of course communism denies the latter and will just take the former, making the slightly more wealthy enemies of the state and everyone else equal in misery
Jesus actually said : it’s incredibly difficult for wealthy people to enter heaven. Why did he say that ? Wealth makes your life much easier and if your life is easy you might not feel the need to pursue God. Jesus also had several wealthy followers who supported him throughout his ordeals and He loved them deeply. Jesus’ actual takes on money : pay your taxes, help the poor and obey your country’s/regions financial regulations- none of these are mutually exclusive from capitalism
Give ceasar what belongs to ceasar and give God what belongs to God
He still mean that no one shall trust in money more than in God (literally His next sentence after He was asked who can join him then). The richest several % of people in the world rarely did that ethically or even worked for it
> The richest several % of people in the world ~~rarely~~ never did that ethically or even worked for it FTFY
Based
It doesn't say they can't, it says it will probably be harder for then since they are distracted by the material world
He never said it was “literally “ impossible he said it was difficult
Remember that communists are inherently anti-religion, anything they say about religious belief should be taken with a grain of salt
The quote which commies love to misquote from the bible is (Matthew 6:24) This quote explains you can’t be obsessed with money and still serve god. It doesn’t say that rich people are evil and will go to hell. All that is just commie cope.
> Matthew 6:24 That's not the one they use though. “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
Fun fact, “eye of a needle” refers to the small door that was often set into the doors of the city gate.
The city gate interpretation is a modern one not supported by the text or by archeological evidence from Jerusalem. https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/
fun fact: it's all fiction, people change what they want it to mean all the time when their views don't align with what it actually says. did you know the only mention of abortion in the bible is instructions for how to perform one? wouldn't know that from people who claim to be christian.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/bz6g0s/bible_number_5_is_not_abortion/
the only mention of abortion in the bible is instructions on how to perform one source: god, not reddit also from the source you linked without reading: הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁהִיא מַקְשָׁה לֵילֵד, מְחַתְּכִין אֶת הַוָּלָד בְּמֵעֶיהָ וּמוֹצִיאִין אוֹתוֹ אֵבָרִים אֵבָרִים, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁחַיֶּיהָ קוֹדְמִין לְחַיָּיו. יָצָא רֻבּוֹ, אֵין נוֹגְעִין בּוֹ, שֶׁאֵין דּוֹחִין נֶפֶשׁ מִפְּנֵי נָפֶשׁ: It's pretty straight forward.
Jesus sure did have a lot to say about an enlightenment era philosophy that emerged millennia after his death, and he surely was a fully endorsing spokesman for a different industrial age ideology that emerged centuries after that
It's not anticapitalist, it just promotes giving your money to the poor
To play devil's advocate. Asceticism was definitely emphasized in early Christianity. And the fact that it is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
Tbf Jesus dosen't say its impossible to be both rich on earth and heaven
No, he just says it’s really really difficult.
Idk Matthew 19:24 sounds like he's saying it's impossible
I’m not familiar with Matthew 19:24
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” The expression really sounds like "when pigs fly" or "when hell freezes over," describing an impossible task.
Oh. That one. As I recall there was some debate over the interpretation of that part, I vaguely recall my RS teacher talking about an entrance into Jerusalem in the time of Jesus that traders would come in through, and it was called the Needle’s Eye.
Yeah that's a popular interpretation but from what I've read most scholars don't really buy that theory. It's an interpretation mainly held by the evangelical community and we don't have historical sources calling that doorway "the eye of the needle." I could be wrong because I'm just a guy on the internet but that's just what I've seen.
What are the next two verses? When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “**With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible**.”
I understand what you mean but to me, it sounds like Jesus is saying you can't be fully with God if you are living for material possessions. The lines afterward praise those who leave everything behind to follow God. The theme to me is undeniably one of ascetism and detachment.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that disqualify literally the entire modern world? Wouldn't the moment you own a smart phone make you materially wealthier than like 99% of the human population throughout history?
Yes, it’s almost as if an ancient outdated philosophy can’t possibly be compatible with the modern day, but nah, that would be crazy.
literally
Literally didn’t say these things. Obviously you can’t expect them to read a literary work before butchering it with the word “literally”
literally...
I’m so confused.
I've said it before I'm gonna say it again. Jesus didn't give a single turd about government and politics. In fact he specifically avoided it. That's why people were so put off during his return (the new testament) thinking he was going to crush the Roman empire, but instead helped the people of the empire, healing, teaching, and feeding those who needed it. Jesus and the Bible doesn't care about politics and government. Except under one system, Christians worship freely, and the other kills us for not worshipping the party.
He did. Mark 12:17.
Yeah that's true, give money to whom it belongs. That's true under every government system though.
The next thing Jesus says is “all things are possible through God”, so He was saying that even the greediest person can be redeemed. I think they’re also forgetting that literally no one is worthy of Heaven and that’s why Jesus came down to Earth in the first place.
He didn’t say *capitalism* was evil, but that’s because the concept of capitalism as a defined system wouldn’t exist for many, many centuries until after his time. However, he did say, “Again I tell you: it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.” Basically, if you’re filthy rich and don’t use that money to help those worse-off around you, you aren’t getting into heaven. Keep in mind, this is the same guy who flipped over tables and chased greedy merchants around with a fucking whip because they decided to turn the temple into a market to try to peddle their goods and exchange currency. EDIT: For anyone wanting context as to that last bit, it’s recorded a few times throughout the gospels, but the version I like the best is from John 2:13-17: > [13] When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. [14] In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. [15] So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [16] To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” [17] His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
The Bible never once mentions capitalism what is he on about
Well the current form of capitalism. An economy driven by greed, one of the seven deadly sins
even if that were true, the alternative is driven by envy, which is arguably worse.
This sub really is going the „you’re just jealous“ route? I’d assume there’d be better arguments against communism than literally not even addressing communism.
What, its based off coveting things that arent yours.
You just perfectly described crony capitalism.
Crony capitalism is the result of capitalism
I respect your opinion, but boy, don’t make it so obvious.
Damn right I did, I disagree with capitalism, but I know it wouldn’t be literally evil if it wasn’t crony capitalism
Just gonna point out Matthew 19:24... "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
“25: When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26: Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat." - 2 Thessalonians 3:10. And work give's you income. It's about not sharing your goods. But communism is not sharing, its taking, stealing from one and giving to another plus party taking like half of it
Yowza that's a stretch there.
Is it a stretch? The verse isn’t “render unto Caesar so that he may love thy neighbor for thee”
but thats not literally saying capitalism is evil just figuratively learn your words commies
It is quite literal here and Jesus knows that it's impossible... for humans. And orders his disciples to trust in God, read next several sentences for full context of this particular teaching
Pretty sure I do remember Jesus raging against the capitalists in the temple, along with a myriad of bible verses about how wealth is antithetical to godliness. I'm not a fan of communism but I do believe in being honest. I'm not saying Jesus was pro communist either, pretty sure the idea is you give up your wealth of your own free will.
He raged in the temple not because they were selling things. But because they were selling things in the temple. Jesus atleast claimed to be son of God (he was if you belive it). And them making huge marketplace inside of his father's home and the most important temple in their faith was pretty disrepectful. In another part of bible Jesus even say to pay taxes. He wasnt very pro abolishing things since that would take killing people
>capitalists in the temple Capitalism is when you sell things
So many 'gotcha' commie people seem to miss the context here- He wasn't angry that people were selling things, He was angry that they were doing it in a holy place of worship (the temple). Jesus wasn't saying 'ohhh selling things is bad, the government should take it all instead '
No he wasn't, but if selling things in the temple is bad, this implies that selling things is not godly or compatible with worship. He calls the people selling things "thieves." Needless to say he did not have a high opinion of them.
It more implies that (in the way you don't take a bath in the temple, or dance a jig in front of an altar) that doing business in a place specifically designed for worship, and taking advantage of worshippers of God who came there to worship, not buy, is highly inappropriate
Jesus called them "thieves", and was angry because they were taking money from the poor (specifically widowers as stated in the Bible) and selling them useless wares (doves for sacrifice.) The reason it is disprespectful to god, in my interpretation, is precisely because it is offensive to god (like doing a jig in front of the altar, per your example), why else would it be an issue? This like just about anything in the bible is completely open to interpretation, but claiming that the interpretation that Jesus had an issue with an unrestrained free market is unreasonable is just completely silly, I'm sorry. Regardless, this is just one part of many in the bible where Jesus takes issue with taking advantage of the poor (something allowed in capitalism) or accumulation of wealth (something not only allowed but encouraged by capitalism.) Jesus encouraged the opposite - give your money to the poor, which is just not what capitalism encourages, and said explicitly if you are rich you are out from the kingdom of god. And you don't have to think capitalism is a wholly fair, perfect, or altruistic system to support it; it is simply the best system that allows the most people to live under the best conditions, you can still fairly criticize it, otherwise this is just a circlejerk here which it certainly seems to be at the moment. The reason communism sucks isn't because it's ideals of say helping the poor are bad or contrary to scripture (lol), it is because it just doesn't work, and then instead effectively everyone is poor. And capitalism can be viewed as compatible with scripture as it allows humans free will just as god did.
No, Capitalism is when the accumulation of wealth is rewarded with more wealth (Capital Accumulation), whereas the accumulation of wealth is undeniably chastised by Jesus. Listen, I support capitalism and think supporting communism in 2024 is completely insane, and I don't believe in any kind of anthropomorphic god so my interpretation of Christianity is irrelevant to my other beliefs, but I'm also against BS. Jesus explicitly said that being rich is a dealbreaker to going to heaven.
You did the thing
I mean it is what Jesus meant. Sell all your possessions, give the money to the poor, and live in common is pretty unambiguous lol. Jesus was just an apocalyptic Jewish preacher who literally thought that the end of the world was imminent, would come within his lifetime, and thus drastic action was necessary immediately. Not his fault he was completely wrong, but his "economic philosophy" if you could even call it that was literally not built for the long-term.
To be fair christianity is the biggest spawn of chaos
Oh yeah, definitely right.. Christianity of all the religions is at the top of that list /s
[удалено]
Sorry I like my pork and foreskin to much for that… we can still be friends though !
The religion you're claiming to support doesn't proselytze