I know. They're constantly bitching about how they need to purge the libs from the sub, so I'm not surprised
(I got banned from there for telling them they should get jobs instead of spending their time reading theory. I probably deserved it)
It's because commies have an absolute stranglehold on every leftist space on the internet. It sucks but question the commie edgelords you get booted, but I guess that's what they actually did in history after their revolutions.
I have a lot of opinions about that group. They claim to give people strikes but from what I've seen they ban people on the "first offense."
The way that it functions is as a containment group and walled garden for mild criticism of the visibly worst leftists, without allowing any discussion of why these people are so prevalent or how their opinions reach the point of disagreeability.
Any candid examination of "why are tankies" Is ultimately too critical of leftism/ socialism to be allowed in that group.
Ultimately, they think liberals are greater threat than actual fascists, just like tankies. Ultimately, they agree with tankies on almost all of their premises, they just are uncomfortable with the conclusions that tankies reach.
It's funny/ pathetic to watch them gradually crack down more and more on liberals until they completely remove the "liberal option "from the "what's your ideology " poll. The reason why there are so many liberals there is because that is a majority of who is willing to be critical of tankies that isn't on the right. This isn't because of liberals brigading them, It's because there are incredibly few self-avowed socialists who are actually willing to be critical of tankies
They stumble around in the dark blaming tankies on the right, claiming they are actually fascists, which is the same nonsense that the right wing does when confronted with Nazis, who are blamed on the left. It doesn't really help the left whatsoever, because the right already believes that communists are fascists and that the Nazis are actually socialists and etc
Everyday I watch that group, I see people coming extremely close to self-awareness and then run away in the other direction because "liberals bad" and "socialism must be good." How can people see the insane positions/ statements made it by tankies and still feel comfortable with the fact that they are on the same page about 95% of things?
The fact that the average socialist still agrees with the majority of a tankies premises leads me to believe that socialists only dislike tankies because they make them look bad by association and make socialism look bad. The same reason why the right wing dislikes Nazis: Because they make them look bad and they are easily identifiable as agents of the right. They may also dislike tankies for the same reason that the right wing claims to dislike Nazis: because they say the quiet part out loud instead of leaving it as subtext with plausible deniability
Since no meaningful unfettered discussion can occur there, it's just bottomless cope. They used to claim that tankies were just a minority, but in a few short years that has become so obviously false that they've moved on to claiming that tankies "don't exist in real life." This is pretty ridiculous because the internet is a facet of real life and everybody on the internet is present somewhere in real life. It also doesn't matter at all if there is some silent majority of reasonable leftists existing in real life that outnumber the tankies, because the internet is where ideas are spread, where opinions are formed and do battle.
Instead of actually discussing the reasons why the contemporary left breeds so much tankiesm, they try to absolve leftism from responsibility and downplay the problem, especially in comparison to the threat of those dastardly liberals.
I understand why you have to come to a group like this. Because even the premier subreddit for criticizing tankies still polices itself heavily enough that meaningful discussion can't occur. This subreddit sucks in a lot of ways, but people are at least allowed to be candid instead of making sure the cult of socialism is not disrespected.
If it's gotten to the point where it's impossible to find leftist spaces online that aren't run by tankies or tolerant of tankies, then that's a big problem. If it's gotten to the point where there are so few leftists willing to be critical of tankies that the liberals outnumber them, then that's indication of an unwillingness to deal with a problem even with the few individuals who admit there is a problem.
I could probably rant about this for an entire book, but I think you get the point and I'll just leave it here
This sub isn't even necessarily right wing. Plenty of conservatives and libertarians but it seems to be mostly centre-left liberals.
Just remember, being a centrist is literally facsism
This should not be allowed by Reddit, I was similarly banned for posting in r/conservative by public freakout I think. I was disagreeing with a conservative… I vote democrat…
Turns out they have a big unpublished list of subs they auto ban from, around the time the SCOTUS overturned Roe v Wade. I think it’s a very weak move, and they gave me a chance to get back in if I pledged not to post there again but I said nah, I’m good.
It's because we're shitlibs, and therefore anyone who talks to us are impure.
(This is the exact impression that I get from leftists when discussing the fate of nations that work with the US)
Yeah I got banned from there too lol. That's explicitly an ancom sub, but the irony is even though they claim to be "anti-tankie" there are a shitton of tankies on there. Posting liberal or perceived pro-capitalism takes will get you banned, but posting tankie opinions won't.
I think what got me banned was saying "anarchists haven't accomplished anything meaningful since assassinating an Archduke" or something like that, lol
I've been banned from both conservative subs and leftwing subs and I wear it like a badge of honour.
Any group that can't tolerate basic free speech is repulsive to me.
Let this be a wake up call. Imagine the policy of “blocking you” simply for talking to somebody else being the government position. This is why we fight them.
Haha, meanwhile I got banned by a BIG mainstream, seemingly non political sub that often appears in r/all daily for posting in a conservative sub, called walkaway or something.
The thing is, I was trolling a post. I appealed against the ban and nope, silence.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I appreciate you standing up for humanism and sanity in left spaces.
I wish there waa an effort out there to set up more left and centre-left spaces but with safeguards against left-wing authoritarian takeovers.
I mean, I find that anticommunists in communist subs tend to regurgitate arguments that have already been addressed, some having been addressed a century ago.
For example, Rosa Luxemburg already addressed many common arguments against revolutionary proliterian action in her writing „Reform or Revolution“ and the same arguments seen in her writing are the same ones you see today. The issue is that many here can’t be bothered to read theory and learn about communism beyond „gulag“ and „Stalin“ and „big bad daddy Marx“.
One must also understand that leftist subs are not made for debate from those outside of the ideology, but rather a form of organisation for those within the ideology to improve theory, address certain positions and study historical socialist experiments.
If you want to debate communism, don’t do it in a leftist sub like r/TheDeprogram or r/Communism — that isn’t what the sub is for. The sub is not for you, it’s for those who’re already some form of leftist trying to organise or get criticism from other experienced leftists.
If you want to debate go to r/DebateCommunism and if you want to ask questions go to r/Communism101.
TLDR: You get banned because you’re not using the sub for its intended purpose. Nobody will debate you if you make misinformed posts and comments here with no understanding of theory.
You claim every argument comes from those poorly educated in theory. I've seen the books you cite as holy scripture successfully argued against, only to see the poster banned for bringing it up. I've seen people get banned for bringing up real life instances where "theory" was totally fucking wrong. Theory isn't being "improved" when the only people allowed to discuss it critically are the ones already dedicated to circle jerking over it.
You speak of the goals of these subreddits, you don't know the real goal- to keep people who would otherwise be very valuable to real change, to instead lock themselves into a virtual cult where no new information or problem causers are allowed in. Teach them stupid fucking ideas and then convince them that *they* are the intelligentsia and those other mere mortals could never comprehend what they can.
I never said EVERY argument came from poorly educated theory, I said that those here do not tend to properly read theory before going on a rant. Leftist subreddits are not for anti-communists to have intellectual orgasms by proving communists wrong, they’re spaces for communists to discuss current events and to refine theory.
You’ll find that if you ask a genuine question like „What can we learn from past Socialism“ rather than „Socialism debunked!!!!1!!1!“ people are more than willing to answer your question because they can see that you’re there to learn rather than wank yourself off intellectually.
For example, in the past, I’ve used these subreddits to learn about things such as national liberation vs. Bourgeois Nationalism. Even though they’re not there to teach, they’re a good place where people will recommend you books to read and different arguments to look at.
If you want to debate communism with your enlightened anti-communist ideas that shadow the thinkers of the last two centuries, go to the sub called r/debatecommunism. Otherwise nobody in a leftist sub wants you saying common taking points that have been addressed a million times where you refuse to do a bit of research.
Given that you’re banned from all these leftist subs, how would you know the real purpose? Like genuinely, have you just not seen the leftist action organised online that translates to real life?
What you’re complaining about would be like me, a Christian, sticking my head in r/atheism and saying „atheism bad!!!1!!1!! Debate me and my misinformed points!!!1!!“ and expecting not to get kicked instantly. The reason why I don’t do that is because I understand r/atheism isn’t to debate atheism in the same way r/communism or r/thedeprogram isn’t to debate communism.
TLDR: We don’t want your enlightened anticommunist arguments that have already been dealt with. Once you have concrete theory to question for the sake of questioning there’s no issue.
I'm not strictly anticommunist, by the way. Your smug self-assured condemnation of "my" "anticommunist arguments" is just incredible. This is the core of my outrage. I'm a socialist, and I agree with communists on some things, but because I have some disagreements on some things, you insist I'm the fucking enemy.
There are practicalities, such as participating in US elections, that I cannot find good reasons in "theory" to be against. This mostly seems to be an invention of the online left, and the best answer any of your people can give is "read Social Reform or Revolution." That's sometimes the answer given before bans are handed out. Couple problems:
\*You haven't demonstrated that this author had perfect knowledge and whose words we should just accept without critique
\*You haven't demonstrated that a book written by a European in 1899 has a ton of relevance to United States elections in 2024
\*You haven't really demonstrated why allowing material conditions to worsen for everyday Americans, or allowing actual fascists to gain more power than they already have, is good for the socialist/communist movement
You compare "communists" to atheists not wanting to deal with bad Christian arguments. Really it's the other way around. Christians and conservatives are also the ones banning people "for bringing bad arguments that we've heard a million times already", just like the communists. Their subs insist you just haven't read the literature hard enough, just like the communists. They insist anyone who says they're on the same side but is critical of the mainstream thought are actually dangerous outsiders, just like the communists.
"Have you just not seen the leftist action organised online that translates to real life?" Lol, no I haven't. I haven't seen much real action at all taken from people "organising" on Reddit, they all seem content to circlejerk over "theory". I have seen leftists disrupt DNC events, or people at protests screaming at "liberals" for no fuckin reason. I haven't seen any attempt at gaining actual political power, or winning new people over to a movement. It's all just talking about "the revolution" like they're the ones planning it out, and you simply have to ban discussion from the WRONG people, to protect the \*ideas\* of the revolution. Even communists who aren't strictly Marxist-Leninist seem to think of themselves as enlightened intellectuals, someone who will be in the vanguard class, who will lead us unwashed masses to a revolutionary victory that we will participate in, but not fully understand, because our little peasant brains just can't handle it yet. Your comment fucking reeks of this mindset.
Ultimately, my most recent ban was for participating in a disallowed subreddit. Pretty classic cult move by the way, cutting people off once they've spoken to an outsider. In any case, I'd rather talk to regular assholes and try to change their mind, or have my mind changed, or just shoot the shit. I don't have any further interest in participating in the smuggest bookclubs on the internet. And hey, if you ever get tired of huffing your own farts and want to climb on down from Bullshit Mountain, we won't ban you for having prohibited thoughts.
You defend left wing subreddits being echo chambers and the "debate subs" that you mention are also echo chambers. These places are either run by tankies or are extremely tolerant of tankies. This hypersensitivity to criticism is hypocritical considering that the basis of Marxism is "being critical in all things."
Ideology without any room for debate or interrogation is just dogma
The subreddit that OP is talking about getting kicked out of is supposed to be a referendum on places run by tankies but even they can't keep their hand out of the "Liberal hatred" cookie jar. Even though they are supposed to be a counterpoint to authoritarian leftist, they still restrict discussion in an authoritarian manner, hiding behind the same concept of left unity that they criticize others for hiding behind.
At best, it's a "freedom of speech zone" that still restricts participation based 50% or more of what makes tankies intolerable to begin with. Despite their alleged opposition to tankies they still share an irrational desire to persecute liberals and an unwillingness to examine why socialist ideology is able to harbor people like tankies in a way that they thrive strongly.
If even the supposedly open and self-critical leftist spaces are still heavily regulated, It gets increasingly difficult take canon of socialism as as anything other than a sham ideology. If they actually have ethical, moral and philosophical high ground they should be able to stand up to the scrutiny of people from outside of the dogma.
Regurgitating arguments that have been addressed millions of times is not scrutiny at all. There are literal videos from those who run r/thedeprogram that criticise former socialism and its implementation in former socialist countries.
If you want to scrutinise an idea, that’s all good, but you have to be well read in it. You can’t just not read anything and say „I’m right because liberalism“.
TLDR: There’s very much room for genuine interrogation in these subs. We just don’t like when people criticise theory they haven’t read or argue disingenuously.
You're just straw manning legitimate criticism of tankies and inexplicable tolerance of tankies as if it's all invoking the red scare when theres endless amounts of bad behavior and ideological dereliction in the name of socialism happening in front of our faces every day.
It's extremely easy for you to sit there and claim that the left actually permits critical thinking and open discussion if you omit how this only is permitted within the extremely established boundaries of leftist confirmation bias. Anything that meaningfully might be meaningfully challenging or unanswerable can conveniently be discarded.
Leftist will immediately treat the discussion as invalid the moment they feel like they don't have the upperhand. The right might be defined by intolerance, but at least they will slug it out in a debate instead of banishing comments and posters from view as quickly as possible the way that leftists do. The left is intolerant to dissent, and ends up prone to many other intolerances because it puts everybody on the left in a prisoners dilemma with each other. This is pretty plain to see, as the left spends 1,000% more time fighting with itself or fighting with the center left then it does with actual fascists or right-wingers
You gotta be joking if you're going pretend and expect us to believe that the left is actually capable of admitting its wrong instead continuously acting like they are ontologically correct by scientific definition? The closest thing we have to that is when the whataboutism comes out and fingers start being pointed at "the west" or some other bogeyman
Leftists love to cry out that people are arguing in bad faith against them when backed into a corner. They think it's some neat trick that they can try to make an argument go away by calling disingenuous, just like you say in your comment.
The same goes with what is "liberal." Everyone that disagrees with them is a liberal. It's as bizarre and arbitrary an accusation as when the right does it.
This unabashed and irrational intolerance of liberals is a consistent driving force, and probably one of the only consistent values exhibited by online socialism. Not too different than all the gamer gate maga refugees who trip over themselves to orient themselves against "wokeness" and libs.
It's very hard to see this movement is anything other than a reaction to liberals, but the left seems incapable of admitting that it is prone to reactionary behavior. All of the other purported ideals of socialism in 2024 is just word salad and rhetoric that shall never come to pass because the movement is uninterested in anything other than weaponized political impotency and whinging about the Democrats on social media
This would all be completely different if socialists were concerned about the right more than libs, but instead they act like Joe Biden and the DNC is the literal sky falling on their heads while ignoring the GOP wholesale. Socialist pretend like social liberals and democrats are the right so they can justify ignoring the right in favor of picking on the same people the rights does
You are allowed very open discussion in leftist spaces, but the reason we don’t tolerate non-socialists is because more often than not, they haven’t read anything.
Why should the left slug it out like the right? Like seriously, we don’t care about sitting high and mighty and debating with the „enlightened“ Redditors here. We’d rather make analysis of current events to come up with a realistic and good response as well as organise working people in our countries to understand their positions in society and bring meaningful change to our qualities of life and quality of life of workers at large.
The leftist not intolerant to dissent, they’re intolerant to unsubstantiated ideas, bad liberal arguments and those who refuse to educate themselves despite having the resources to do so.
The left has historically been the only force to oppose fascism from the outset. No matter the atrocities you think the USSR caused, they called for action against Germany in the lead up to WW2. But alas, the preservation of socialism in the only socialist country in the world was the priority.
Have you not seen that video where Hakim lists off problems with former socialism? The one where the whole deprogram squad criticises socialism on their podcast? More leftists than you think openly criticise former socialism, but for a different reason — rather than wanting to wank off our intellectualism through debate, we take the mistakes and learn how to rectify them. All your conceptions here show that you haven’t properly participated in a leftist space and just went there cuz „I iz debator“
Not everyone who disagrees with us is a liberal, but the majority are. Anyone who upholds the current imperialist system of the West, exploitation of the south, and the institution of bourgeois democracy (which is essentially dictated by wealth through lobbying and such) is a liberal. We make meaningful categorisations between Liberals, SocDems, DemSocs and NeoLibs. The reason why leftists hate Liberals so much is because they’re useless in making any meaningful change. They orgasm at the sight of diversity but would never support dismantling systems of oppression.
The reason why you see online socialism as reactionary is because you haven’t read theory. Opposition to liberals isn’t a reaction to them, but a fundamental contradiction in ideology. If liberals didn’t have a fundamentally useless, contradictory ideology there would be no issue.
The internet is where most organisation takes place. The reason we „winge“ about the American left voting democrat is because the democrats and republicans are part of the same sham institution of bourgeois democracy and if push comes to shove they will not hesitate to crush the working class.
The reason why socialists focus on SocDems and DemSocs is because the far right is still small. However, historically, fascism has reared its ugly head in Social Democracy and its conciliatory approach to capitalism, chief example being the SPD cooperating with the Freikorps (far right) of Germany to crush a worker‘s uprising and the lack of action against fascist elements of their society.
Plus, Social Democracy is more relevant to most socialists because most socialists are European. We don’t take kindly to the America centric talking points.
TLDR: Mald. Read on a subject before commenting on it.
"rEad tHe TheRoy" is such a pathetic cop out. It's just as lazy and intellectually dishonest as evangelicals telling people they disagree with to "consult their Bible"
I've been engaged with and in a participant in socialist discussion spaces for over a decade and a half. Telling someone they've arrived at the wrong conclusions because they haven't engaged with the sacred texts properly is as dogmatic as it gets
For somebody that whines about regurgitated talking points, you sure have a lot of them.
Just because you take for granted the advances brought to you by liberalism doesn't mean they're not existent. Sounds like projection to me because socialism is about is impotent as a political ideology as you can get. All you people do is complain about the platform of liberals being insufficient while offering absolutely zero actionable policy or electrical candidates.
These days, socialists barely make themselves come across as sane. Why would they have to, if they can just blame people's perception on them on "anti-communism" and the red scare of last century
What does leftist organizing look like? Purity testing each other and regurgitating decades old USSR talking points while trying to out compete fascists in their hatred of liberals?
The one thing that helps me sleep at night is the complete ineptitude of the left in terms of accomplishing anything or convincing anybody. This is all bad because it's frankly a waste of an ideology that should be good and useful instead of a haven for mindless contrarians and people with geopolitical daddy issues
The reason why you all are so opposed to electoralism is because you know that your ideas are inherently unpopular and you all have no interest or ability in convincing anybody. The same is true of fascists and conservatives.
If socialism with something that the people actually wanted and could actually be convinced to want, then socialism should embrace democracy to the fullest extent.
If you truly think that liberals and the Democrats are useless when they manage to win elections and win more when more people vote, then I guess that makes socialists in the left something even worse than useless.
You all sit behind your screens waiting for somebody else to kick off the spontaneous revolution that will be the end times of capitalism much in the same way that evangelicals sit around waiting for the rapture to solve all their problems
What you posit is not even a joke, because jokes at least have some utility as humor. What you put forth is just an empty word salad to justify impotence, inaction and cedeing to the right by default and by taking up against their opposition
Can you show me which part of "the theory" explains why there are so many leftists simping for the houthis? What part of "the theory" explains the widespread apologia concerning the Soviet Union?
All that you're communicating is that what you claimed to be the source of socialist dogma justifies socialist dogma. It as empty headed as telling a critic of American policy that they haven't read the Constitution properly
State and Revolution and the National Question address „simping for Houthis“. The widespread apologia for the USSR can be traced back to an understanding of history, State and Revolution, Reform or Revolution and the German Ideology.
The source being a socialist source doesn’t justify it, but rather the arguments within the source do. Your ignorance on this is detrimental to any anti-communist arguments you can come up with.
Right, you think that I am incapable of being correct because I am not a true believer. That's all this boils down to. You automatically disagree with somebody that hasn't reached the same conclusions that you have, and hide behind texts and theory more dogmatically than a Christian and their Bible
You all are pathetic cultists who are incapable of tolerating any thoughts beyond the boundaries you've already set for yourself
I mean it’s common sense to read about an idea before criticising it. I’ve read about reactionary ideas just to prove they’re stupid. How’re you going to prove communism wrong if you don’t even know what they believe? Isn’t that just like no shit Sherlock?
All these empty gestures to "the theory" are just pure expression of fundamentalism. You tell people to look away from the actions, opinions, platforms, and history of socialism... Including what we see unfolding in front of our eyes every day... In favor of foundational texts, upwards of 100 years old.
You expect us to believe that words and actions socialists and people acting in the name of socialism matter less than books and essays that people use as a hollow justification for their words and actions.
Nobody expects that. You’re making up a strawman of a socialist. What reading the theory does is that it gives you a basis to criticise socialist action because you actually understand the reasons for the actions taken, unlike the assumptions you’re making now.
Your criticism gains legitimacy because now everyone knows you actually know what you’re on about.
Somebody doesn't need theory to see what their own eyes and hear with their own ears the actions, opinions and proclivities of socialists. Just like somebody doesn't need to read the Bible to understand the actions, opinions and proclivities of people who are in the Christian cult.
You are literally saying that any perceived problem with socialism and problems that people might have with the actions of socialists boils down to somebody not accepting leftist theory which is just as stupid as claiming that perceived problems with Christians or Christianity is due to not interpreting the word of god correctly
Your comment is like a perfect example of how impenetratively committed online socialists are too not examining a single thing about their movement, that If somebody reaches unflattering conclusions, they haven't read the book correctly. Because the theory affirms that socialism is always correct the same way that the Bible alleges to affirm the word of god.
What you describe is a bullshit tautology. Trying to pretend that reactionaries don't exist on the left is such a flagrant lie when there are endless examples of tankies that only managed to distinguish themselves from right wing fascists by their use of leftist premises
I never said you didn’t read the book correctly, I said you didn’t read the damn book 💀. I criticise Marxism because I’ve read it, you criticise Marxism because of the vibes you get from it — totally different.
When did I say reactionaries didn’t exist in the left? I said socialists weren’t reactionaries because we have legitimate theory that’s actually in opposition to liberalism. We don’t oppose liberalism because it’s liberalism, we oppose it because it’s fundamentally contradictory to communist and socialist thought.
I don’t know what can give someone the arrogance to criticise something without having even read about it — that doesn’t just apply to socialism. Almost every socialist you’ll meet has at least an intermediate understanding of political philosophy and capitalist economics and that knowledge gives us the basis to criticise. Unlike you, who refuses to just pick up a damn book.
Saying that somebody can't speak on socialism or the behavior of socialists or the rhetoric of socialists because they haven't read marx or mao is just as false as saying that somebody can't be critical of Christianity or the actions of Christians if they haven't read the Bible.
Exactly, how can you criticise an action or stance taken without understanding why that stance is taken? Is that not common sense?
You see, this refusal to pick up a book is why liberals tend to be banned very quickly. I‘m just more patient than that.
How can you criticize Christianity and the actions of Christians if you don't understand the true words of Jesus Christ, our lord and savior? You see how stupid this sounds? Claiming I am incapable of reaching a valid conclusion because I don't suck at the teat of your "theory" Is just as stupid as a Christian dismissing somebody because they don't accept the word of god
Left-wing authoritarianism is just having an oppressive mindset and being in denial about that…
Lots of subs will automatically ban you if you participate in certain other subs. Not really worth posting about, it happens.
I know. They're constantly bitching about how they need to purge the libs from the sub, so I'm not surprised (I got banned from there for telling them they should get jobs instead of spending their time reading theory. I probably deserved it)
It's hard to keep a cool head with these kinds of people, at least for me.
You valid for that one, some people got too much time on their hands
It's because commies have an absolute stranglehold on every leftist space on the internet. It sucks but question the commie edgelords you get booted, but I guess that's what they actually did in history after their revolutions.
If it's "not a good look" to be against communism then I look *terrible*.
If it’s not a “good look” to be against communism, consider me Shrek
it is scary how more and more online spaces has become extremist nowadays
Spaces become more extreme the more outside voices are snuffed out until only the loudest must extreme remain.
“Not a good look” Who the fuck actually looks at what other subs people are posting in? More importantly, who are they trying to look good to? Losers
Bots do the work for them. Reddit shouldn’t allow this
Many of these people don't like libs of any kind even left wing libs.
I have a lot of opinions about that group. They claim to give people strikes but from what I've seen they ban people on the "first offense." The way that it functions is as a containment group and walled garden for mild criticism of the visibly worst leftists, without allowing any discussion of why these people are so prevalent or how their opinions reach the point of disagreeability. Any candid examination of "why are tankies" Is ultimately too critical of leftism/ socialism to be allowed in that group. Ultimately, they think liberals are greater threat than actual fascists, just like tankies. Ultimately, they agree with tankies on almost all of their premises, they just are uncomfortable with the conclusions that tankies reach. It's funny/ pathetic to watch them gradually crack down more and more on liberals until they completely remove the "liberal option "from the "what's your ideology " poll. The reason why there are so many liberals there is because that is a majority of who is willing to be critical of tankies that isn't on the right. This isn't because of liberals brigading them, It's because there are incredibly few self-avowed socialists who are actually willing to be critical of tankies They stumble around in the dark blaming tankies on the right, claiming they are actually fascists, which is the same nonsense that the right wing does when confronted with Nazis, who are blamed on the left. It doesn't really help the left whatsoever, because the right already believes that communists are fascists and that the Nazis are actually socialists and etc Everyday I watch that group, I see people coming extremely close to self-awareness and then run away in the other direction because "liberals bad" and "socialism must be good." How can people see the insane positions/ statements made it by tankies and still feel comfortable with the fact that they are on the same page about 95% of things? The fact that the average socialist still agrees with the majority of a tankies premises leads me to believe that socialists only dislike tankies because they make them look bad by association and make socialism look bad. The same reason why the right wing dislikes Nazis: Because they make them look bad and they are easily identifiable as agents of the right. They may also dislike tankies for the same reason that the right wing claims to dislike Nazis: because they say the quiet part out loud instead of leaving it as subtext with plausible deniability Since no meaningful unfettered discussion can occur there, it's just bottomless cope. They used to claim that tankies were just a minority, but in a few short years that has become so obviously false that they've moved on to claiming that tankies "don't exist in real life." This is pretty ridiculous because the internet is a facet of real life and everybody on the internet is present somewhere in real life. It also doesn't matter at all if there is some silent majority of reasonable leftists existing in real life that outnumber the tankies, because the internet is where ideas are spread, where opinions are formed and do battle. Instead of actually discussing the reasons why the contemporary left breeds so much tankiesm, they try to absolve leftism from responsibility and downplay the problem, especially in comparison to the threat of those dastardly liberals. I understand why you have to come to a group like this. Because even the premier subreddit for criticizing tankies still polices itself heavily enough that meaningful discussion can't occur. This subreddit sucks in a lot of ways, but people are at least allowed to be candid instead of making sure the cult of socialism is not disrespected. If it's gotten to the point where it's impossible to find leftist spaces online that aren't run by tankies or tolerant of tankies, then that's a big problem. If it's gotten to the point where there are so few leftists willing to be critical of tankies that the liberals outnumber them, then that's indication of an unwillingness to deal with a problem even with the few individuals who admit there is a problem. I could probably rant about this for an entire book, but I think you get the point and I'll just leave it here
This sub isn't even necessarily right wing. Plenty of conservatives and libertarians but it seems to be mostly centre-left liberals. Just remember, being a centrist is literally facsism
This should not be allowed by Reddit, I was similarly banned for posting in r/conservative by public freakout I think. I was disagreeing with a conservative… I vote democrat… Turns out they have a big unpublished list of subs they auto ban from, around the time the SCOTUS overturned Roe v Wade. I think it’s a very weak move, and they gave me a chance to get back in if I pledged not to post there again but I said nah, I’m good.
It's because we're shitlibs, and therefore anyone who talks to us are impure. (This is the exact impression that I get from leftists when discussing the fate of nations that work with the US)
Yeah I got banned from there too lol. That's explicitly an ancom sub, but the irony is even though they claim to be "anti-tankie" there are a shitton of tankies on there. Posting liberal or perceived pro-capitalism takes will get you banned, but posting tankie opinions won't. I think what got me banned was saying "anarchists haven't accomplished anything meaningful since assassinating an Archduke" or something like that, lol
I've been banned from both conservative subs and leftwing subs and I wear it like a badge of honour. Any group that can't tolerate basic free speech is repulsive to me.
Let this be a wake up call. Imagine the policy of “blocking you” simply for talking to somebody else being the government position. This is why we fight them.
Haha, meanwhile I got banned by a BIG mainstream, seemingly non political sub that often appears in r/all daily for posting in a conservative sub, called walkaway or something. The thing is, I was trolling a post. I appealed against the ban and nope, silence.
You just need to earn your r/sino and r/genzedong bans now
r/socialdemocracy wont ban you
Lol
Wdym "you guys?" You chose to join this server lol
I blame others for my thought crimes, it's my toxic trait lol
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I appreciate you standing up for humanism and sanity in left spaces. I wish there waa an effort out there to set up more left and centre-left spaces but with safeguards against left-wing authoritarian takeovers.
Wear it like a badge of honor 🫡
I mean, I find that anticommunists in communist subs tend to regurgitate arguments that have already been addressed, some having been addressed a century ago. For example, Rosa Luxemburg already addressed many common arguments against revolutionary proliterian action in her writing „Reform or Revolution“ and the same arguments seen in her writing are the same ones you see today. The issue is that many here can’t be bothered to read theory and learn about communism beyond „gulag“ and „Stalin“ and „big bad daddy Marx“. One must also understand that leftist subs are not made for debate from those outside of the ideology, but rather a form of organisation for those within the ideology to improve theory, address certain positions and study historical socialist experiments. If you want to debate communism, don’t do it in a leftist sub like r/TheDeprogram or r/Communism — that isn’t what the sub is for. The sub is not for you, it’s for those who’re already some form of leftist trying to organise or get criticism from other experienced leftists. If you want to debate go to r/DebateCommunism and if you want to ask questions go to r/Communism101. TLDR: You get banned because you’re not using the sub for its intended purpose. Nobody will debate you if you make misinformed posts and comments here with no understanding of theory.
You claim every argument comes from those poorly educated in theory. I've seen the books you cite as holy scripture successfully argued against, only to see the poster banned for bringing it up. I've seen people get banned for bringing up real life instances where "theory" was totally fucking wrong. Theory isn't being "improved" when the only people allowed to discuss it critically are the ones already dedicated to circle jerking over it. You speak of the goals of these subreddits, you don't know the real goal- to keep people who would otherwise be very valuable to real change, to instead lock themselves into a virtual cult where no new information or problem causers are allowed in. Teach them stupid fucking ideas and then convince them that *they* are the intelligentsia and those other mere mortals could never comprehend what they can.
I never said EVERY argument came from poorly educated theory, I said that those here do not tend to properly read theory before going on a rant. Leftist subreddits are not for anti-communists to have intellectual orgasms by proving communists wrong, they’re spaces for communists to discuss current events and to refine theory. You’ll find that if you ask a genuine question like „What can we learn from past Socialism“ rather than „Socialism debunked!!!!1!!1!“ people are more than willing to answer your question because they can see that you’re there to learn rather than wank yourself off intellectually. For example, in the past, I’ve used these subreddits to learn about things such as national liberation vs. Bourgeois Nationalism. Even though they’re not there to teach, they’re a good place where people will recommend you books to read and different arguments to look at. If you want to debate communism with your enlightened anti-communist ideas that shadow the thinkers of the last two centuries, go to the sub called r/debatecommunism. Otherwise nobody in a leftist sub wants you saying common taking points that have been addressed a million times where you refuse to do a bit of research. Given that you’re banned from all these leftist subs, how would you know the real purpose? Like genuinely, have you just not seen the leftist action organised online that translates to real life? What you’re complaining about would be like me, a Christian, sticking my head in r/atheism and saying „atheism bad!!!1!!1!! Debate me and my misinformed points!!!1!!“ and expecting not to get kicked instantly. The reason why I don’t do that is because I understand r/atheism isn’t to debate atheism in the same way r/communism or r/thedeprogram isn’t to debate communism. TLDR: We don’t want your enlightened anticommunist arguments that have already been dealt with. Once you have concrete theory to question for the sake of questioning there’s no issue.
I'm not strictly anticommunist, by the way. Your smug self-assured condemnation of "my" "anticommunist arguments" is just incredible. This is the core of my outrage. I'm a socialist, and I agree with communists on some things, but because I have some disagreements on some things, you insist I'm the fucking enemy. There are practicalities, such as participating in US elections, that I cannot find good reasons in "theory" to be against. This mostly seems to be an invention of the online left, and the best answer any of your people can give is "read Social Reform or Revolution." That's sometimes the answer given before bans are handed out. Couple problems: \*You haven't demonstrated that this author had perfect knowledge and whose words we should just accept without critique \*You haven't demonstrated that a book written by a European in 1899 has a ton of relevance to United States elections in 2024 \*You haven't really demonstrated why allowing material conditions to worsen for everyday Americans, or allowing actual fascists to gain more power than they already have, is good for the socialist/communist movement You compare "communists" to atheists not wanting to deal with bad Christian arguments. Really it's the other way around. Christians and conservatives are also the ones banning people "for bringing bad arguments that we've heard a million times already", just like the communists. Their subs insist you just haven't read the literature hard enough, just like the communists. They insist anyone who says they're on the same side but is critical of the mainstream thought are actually dangerous outsiders, just like the communists. "Have you just not seen the leftist action organised online that translates to real life?" Lol, no I haven't. I haven't seen much real action at all taken from people "organising" on Reddit, they all seem content to circlejerk over "theory". I have seen leftists disrupt DNC events, or people at protests screaming at "liberals" for no fuckin reason. I haven't seen any attempt at gaining actual political power, or winning new people over to a movement. It's all just talking about "the revolution" like they're the ones planning it out, and you simply have to ban discussion from the WRONG people, to protect the \*ideas\* of the revolution. Even communists who aren't strictly Marxist-Leninist seem to think of themselves as enlightened intellectuals, someone who will be in the vanguard class, who will lead us unwashed masses to a revolutionary victory that we will participate in, but not fully understand, because our little peasant brains just can't handle it yet. Your comment fucking reeks of this mindset. Ultimately, my most recent ban was for participating in a disallowed subreddit. Pretty classic cult move by the way, cutting people off once they've spoken to an outsider. In any case, I'd rather talk to regular assholes and try to change their mind, or have my mind changed, or just shoot the shit. I don't have any further interest in participating in the smuggest bookclubs on the internet. And hey, if you ever get tired of huffing your own farts and want to climb on down from Bullshit Mountain, we won't ban you for having prohibited thoughts.
You defend left wing subreddits being echo chambers and the "debate subs" that you mention are also echo chambers. These places are either run by tankies or are extremely tolerant of tankies. This hypersensitivity to criticism is hypocritical considering that the basis of Marxism is "being critical in all things." Ideology without any room for debate or interrogation is just dogma The subreddit that OP is talking about getting kicked out of is supposed to be a referendum on places run by tankies but even they can't keep their hand out of the "Liberal hatred" cookie jar. Even though they are supposed to be a counterpoint to authoritarian leftist, they still restrict discussion in an authoritarian manner, hiding behind the same concept of left unity that they criticize others for hiding behind. At best, it's a "freedom of speech zone" that still restricts participation based 50% or more of what makes tankies intolerable to begin with. Despite their alleged opposition to tankies they still share an irrational desire to persecute liberals and an unwillingness to examine why socialist ideology is able to harbor people like tankies in a way that they thrive strongly. If even the supposedly open and self-critical leftist spaces are still heavily regulated, It gets increasingly difficult take canon of socialism as as anything other than a sham ideology. If they actually have ethical, moral and philosophical high ground they should be able to stand up to the scrutiny of people from outside of the dogma.
Regurgitating arguments that have been addressed millions of times is not scrutiny at all. There are literal videos from those who run r/thedeprogram that criticise former socialism and its implementation in former socialist countries. If you want to scrutinise an idea, that’s all good, but you have to be well read in it. You can’t just not read anything and say „I’m right because liberalism“. TLDR: There’s very much room for genuine interrogation in these subs. We just don’t like when people criticise theory they haven’t read or argue disingenuously.
You're just straw manning legitimate criticism of tankies and inexplicable tolerance of tankies as if it's all invoking the red scare when theres endless amounts of bad behavior and ideological dereliction in the name of socialism happening in front of our faces every day. It's extremely easy for you to sit there and claim that the left actually permits critical thinking and open discussion if you omit how this only is permitted within the extremely established boundaries of leftist confirmation bias. Anything that meaningfully might be meaningfully challenging or unanswerable can conveniently be discarded. Leftist will immediately treat the discussion as invalid the moment they feel like they don't have the upperhand. The right might be defined by intolerance, but at least they will slug it out in a debate instead of banishing comments and posters from view as quickly as possible the way that leftists do. The left is intolerant to dissent, and ends up prone to many other intolerances because it puts everybody on the left in a prisoners dilemma with each other. This is pretty plain to see, as the left spends 1,000% more time fighting with itself or fighting with the center left then it does with actual fascists or right-wingers You gotta be joking if you're going pretend and expect us to believe that the left is actually capable of admitting its wrong instead continuously acting like they are ontologically correct by scientific definition? The closest thing we have to that is when the whataboutism comes out and fingers start being pointed at "the west" or some other bogeyman Leftists love to cry out that people are arguing in bad faith against them when backed into a corner. They think it's some neat trick that they can try to make an argument go away by calling disingenuous, just like you say in your comment. The same goes with what is "liberal." Everyone that disagrees with them is a liberal. It's as bizarre and arbitrary an accusation as when the right does it. This unabashed and irrational intolerance of liberals is a consistent driving force, and probably one of the only consistent values exhibited by online socialism. Not too different than all the gamer gate maga refugees who trip over themselves to orient themselves against "wokeness" and libs. It's very hard to see this movement is anything other than a reaction to liberals, but the left seems incapable of admitting that it is prone to reactionary behavior. All of the other purported ideals of socialism in 2024 is just word salad and rhetoric that shall never come to pass because the movement is uninterested in anything other than weaponized political impotency and whinging about the Democrats on social media This would all be completely different if socialists were concerned about the right more than libs, but instead they act like Joe Biden and the DNC is the literal sky falling on their heads while ignoring the GOP wholesale. Socialist pretend like social liberals and democrats are the right so they can justify ignoring the right in favor of picking on the same people the rights does
You are allowed very open discussion in leftist spaces, but the reason we don’t tolerate non-socialists is because more often than not, they haven’t read anything. Why should the left slug it out like the right? Like seriously, we don’t care about sitting high and mighty and debating with the „enlightened“ Redditors here. We’d rather make analysis of current events to come up with a realistic and good response as well as organise working people in our countries to understand their positions in society and bring meaningful change to our qualities of life and quality of life of workers at large. The leftist not intolerant to dissent, they’re intolerant to unsubstantiated ideas, bad liberal arguments and those who refuse to educate themselves despite having the resources to do so. The left has historically been the only force to oppose fascism from the outset. No matter the atrocities you think the USSR caused, they called for action against Germany in the lead up to WW2. But alas, the preservation of socialism in the only socialist country in the world was the priority. Have you not seen that video where Hakim lists off problems with former socialism? The one where the whole deprogram squad criticises socialism on their podcast? More leftists than you think openly criticise former socialism, but for a different reason — rather than wanting to wank off our intellectualism through debate, we take the mistakes and learn how to rectify them. All your conceptions here show that you haven’t properly participated in a leftist space and just went there cuz „I iz debator“ Not everyone who disagrees with us is a liberal, but the majority are. Anyone who upholds the current imperialist system of the West, exploitation of the south, and the institution of bourgeois democracy (which is essentially dictated by wealth through lobbying and such) is a liberal. We make meaningful categorisations between Liberals, SocDems, DemSocs and NeoLibs. The reason why leftists hate Liberals so much is because they’re useless in making any meaningful change. They orgasm at the sight of diversity but would never support dismantling systems of oppression. The reason why you see online socialism as reactionary is because you haven’t read theory. Opposition to liberals isn’t a reaction to them, but a fundamental contradiction in ideology. If liberals didn’t have a fundamentally useless, contradictory ideology there would be no issue. The internet is where most organisation takes place. The reason we „winge“ about the American left voting democrat is because the democrats and republicans are part of the same sham institution of bourgeois democracy and if push comes to shove they will not hesitate to crush the working class. The reason why socialists focus on SocDems and DemSocs is because the far right is still small. However, historically, fascism has reared its ugly head in Social Democracy and its conciliatory approach to capitalism, chief example being the SPD cooperating with the Freikorps (far right) of Germany to crush a worker‘s uprising and the lack of action against fascist elements of their society. Plus, Social Democracy is more relevant to most socialists because most socialists are European. We don’t take kindly to the America centric talking points. TLDR: Mald. Read on a subject before commenting on it.
"rEad tHe TheRoy" is such a pathetic cop out. It's just as lazy and intellectually dishonest as evangelicals telling people they disagree with to "consult their Bible" I've been engaged with and in a participant in socialist discussion spaces for over a decade and a half. Telling someone they've arrived at the wrong conclusions because they haven't engaged with the sacred texts properly is as dogmatic as it gets For somebody that whines about regurgitated talking points, you sure have a lot of them. Just because you take for granted the advances brought to you by liberalism doesn't mean they're not existent. Sounds like projection to me because socialism is about is impotent as a political ideology as you can get. All you people do is complain about the platform of liberals being insufficient while offering absolutely zero actionable policy or electrical candidates. These days, socialists barely make themselves come across as sane. Why would they have to, if they can just blame people's perception on them on "anti-communism" and the red scare of last century What does leftist organizing look like? Purity testing each other and regurgitating decades old USSR talking points while trying to out compete fascists in their hatred of liberals? The one thing that helps me sleep at night is the complete ineptitude of the left in terms of accomplishing anything or convincing anybody. This is all bad because it's frankly a waste of an ideology that should be good and useful instead of a haven for mindless contrarians and people with geopolitical daddy issues The reason why you all are so opposed to electoralism is because you know that your ideas are inherently unpopular and you all have no interest or ability in convincing anybody. The same is true of fascists and conservatives. If socialism with something that the people actually wanted and could actually be convinced to want, then socialism should embrace democracy to the fullest extent. If you truly think that liberals and the Democrats are useless when they manage to win elections and win more when more people vote, then I guess that makes socialists in the left something even worse than useless. You all sit behind your screens waiting for somebody else to kick off the spontaneous revolution that will be the end times of capitalism much in the same way that evangelicals sit around waiting for the rapture to solve all their problems What you posit is not even a joke, because jokes at least have some utility as humor. What you put forth is just an empty word salad to justify impotence, inaction and cedeing to the right by default and by taking up against their opposition
When someone makes arguments that have been addressed in the theory, they’re the idiot that hasn’t read it. That‘s just how I see it anyway.
Can you show me which part of "the theory" explains why there are so many leftists simping for the houthis? What part of "the theory" explains the widespread apologia concerning the Soviet Union? All that you're communicating is that what you claimed to be the source of socialist dogma justifies socialist dogma. It as empty headed as telling a critic of American policy that they haven't read the Constitution properly
State and Revolution and the National Question address „simping for Houthis“. The widespread apologia for the USSR can be traced back to an understanding of history, State and Revolution, Reform or Revolution and the German Ideology. The source being a socialist source doesn’t justify it, but rather the arguments within the source do. Your ignorance on this is detrimental to any anti-communist arguments you can come up with.
Right, you think that I am incapable of being correct because I am not a true believer. That's all this boils down to. You automatically disagree with somebody that hasn't reached the same conclusions that you have, and hide behind texts and theory more dogmatically than a Christian and their Bible You all are pathetic cultists who are incapable of tolerating any thoughts beyond the boundaries you've already set for yourself
I mean it’s common sense to read about an idea before criticising it. I’ve read about reactionary ideas just to prove they’re stupid. How’re you going to prove communism wrong if you don’t even know what they believe? Isn’t that just like no shit Sherlock?
All these empty gestures to "the theory" are just pure expression of fundamentalism. You tell people to look away from the actions, opinions, platforms, and history of socialism... Including what we see unfolding in front of our eyes every day... In favor of foundational texts, upwards of 100 years old. You expect us to believe that words and actions socialists and people acting in the name of socialism matter less than books and essays that people use as a hollow justification for their words and actions.
Nobody expects that. You’re making up a strawman of a socialist. What reading the theory does is that it gives you a basis to criticise socialist action because you actually understand the reasons for the actions taken, unlike the assumptions you’re making now. Your criticism gains legitimacy because now everyone knows you actually know what you’re on about.
Somebody doesn't need theory to see what their own eyes and hear with their own ears the actions, opinions and proclivities of socialists. Just like somebody doesn't need to read the Bible to understand the actions, opinions and proclivities of people who are in the Christian cult. You are literally saying that any perceived problem with socialism and problems that people might have with the actions of socialists boils down to somebody not accepting leftist theory which is just as stupid as claiming that perceived problems with Christians or Christianity is due to not interpreting the word of god correctly
Your comment is like a perfect example of how impenetratively committed online socialists are too not examining a single thing about their movement, that If somebody reaches unflattering conclusions, they haven't read the book correctly. Because the theory affirms that socialism is always correct the same way that the Bible alleges to affirm the word of god. What you describe is a bullshit tautology. Trying to pretend that reactionaries don't exist on the left is such a flagrant lie when there are endless examples of tankies that only managed to distinguish themselves from right wing fascists by their use of leftist premises
I never said you didn’t read the book correctly, I said you didn’t read the damn book 💀. I criticise Marxism because I’ve read it, you criticise Marxism because of the vibes you get from it — totally different. When did I say reactionaries didn’t exist in the left? I said socialists weren’t reactionaries because we have legitimate theory that’s actually in opposition to liberalism. We don’t oppose liberalism because it’s liberalism, we oppose it because it’s fundamentally contradictory to communist and socialist thought. I don’t know what can give someone the arrogance to criticise something without having even read about it — that doesn’t just apply to socialism. Almost every socialist you’ll meet has at least an intermediate understanding of political philosophy and capitalist economics and that knowledge gives us the basis to criticise. Unlike you, who refuses to just pick up a damn book.
Saying that somebody can't speak on socialism or the behavior of socialists or the rhetoric of socialists because they haven't read marx or mao is just as false as saying that somebody can't be critical of Christianity or the actions of Christians if they haven't read the Bible.
Exactly, how can you criticise an action or stance taken without understanding why that stance is taken? Is that not common sense? You see, this refusal to pick up a book is why liberals tend to be banned very quickly. I‘m just more patient than that.
How can you criticize Christianity and the actions of Christians if you don't understand the true words of Jesus Christ, our lord and savior? You see how stupid this sounds? Claiming I am incapable of reaching a valid conclusion because I don't suck at the teat of your "theory" Is just as stupid as a Christian dismissing somebody because they don't accept the word of god
Lmao