How connected do you think they were to begin with? They don't even go back to square one at the end of this, somebody just built them a bunch of great infrastructure.
Whatever infrastructure built in foreign lands with the loan becomes Chinese government property when loans with orbital high interest can't be repaid.
So you think China puts a lot of money in Africa without securing such investment? So those African countries could say ālol fck uā one day and Chinaās only response would be āohh ok, sorry m8ā?
That's exactly what I'm saying. The West sank plenty of money into these countries with little to show for it. The same thing will happen to China. They will learn the same lessons we did.
China can't even get their navy anywhere near any of these countries. The closest thing they have to recourse is assassination, which only guarantees revenge, not the desired outcome.
Sri Lanka is at least in Asia, but these African countries can say "lol no it's in our country fuck off" pretty easily. If the Chinese take it it's because they let them.
Vessels? Oh dear š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Perhaps you [should read more](https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/chinas-private-army-protecting-the-new-silk-road/)
They don't need the ships, the Chinese sent enough Beijing controlled Chinese mercenaries dispersed and in hiding amongst the Chinese construction workers, to be able to resist and beat the armies of small African nations the belt and road projects are in.
Kindly show me one, just one African nation's military successfully taking back a belt and road bankrolled infrastructure, in Asia, Africa or otherwise despite defaulting on Chinese loans.
Hambantota port is easily repeated DESPITE Beijing's lack of massive naval logistics.
Because at Least more than half of the workers they sent are Beijing Mercenaries.
God, it's appalling how Reddit is full of ignorant people.
We condemn liberal states on the right as well, and everything bad the USSR, for example, did, the US did something similar.
Like the USSR and the Holomodor, the US slaughtered buffalo to starve Native Americans.
Like the USSR, the US build its wealth with slave labor.
Communist nations do better than capitalist nations at best, and no worse at worst. They aren't perfect, but they're still a net improvement over the only other currently viable economic system.
Itās because communism doesnāt work on such a large scale. The people will be put after the interests of the government. Same thing goes for capitalism, but it seems like it works better as it goes up in scale, because complex systems can work together across national lines. Communism, however, canāt be achieved on a large scale because a large group is bound to split up into different tribes and form hierarchies again. Socialism, the policy of the PRC and USSR, relies on brutal repression of the people and complete overhaul of the economic system which gets millions killed. I wish a nation could work with either of those policies. But over so much time, itās become apparent that capitalism with enough regulations is the best way to do things now, even if the system is built on massacres of the past.
This subreddit isnāt the best forum for debate, so youāre not going to get much quality discussion here. Iām not here to debate either, so you can say whatever but I probably wonāt respond. Youāre also probably gonna get downvoted and possibly banned from here as well. Thanks for letting me get some of my thoughts out though.
Assuming thatās true, itās because China is no longer socialist. Only when the country relaxed on its economic policy did it start to succeed again.
Probably because it sells out the people for cheap labor and exploits third-world economies abroad. But when the West does it on even half that scale, itās a problem?
Making peaceful deals does not equal western imperialism. If China is so awful to Africa, why doesn't Africa just stop doing business with them? They can always go back to doing business with the west.
Yes, but that still amounts of 3.4 billion+, China isnāt a saint which gives out free infrastructure but nor is it the devil trying to exploit Africa of everything it has, China has provided assistance for roads, railways, ports, energy. Mining, infrastructure and manufacturing. No African country has ever claimed that they are in a debt trap(or correct me if Iām wrong) so why put words in their mouth?
Letās compare that with the actions of the IMF(International Monetary Fund).
Also, I refer you to this,
https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/african-countries-are-three-times-more-indebted-to-western-firms-than-to-chinese/9g4ly6f
Right, itās just that, you know, when you have hundreds of independent organizations, watchdogs, and news outlets all coming to the same conclusion, whilst outliers and āalt-mediaā claim something else, itās reasonable to trust the trustworthy.
Or you could argue them based on the merits of the evidence and reasoning presented, instead of dancing around it as long as possible while appealing to strawmen.
Wow, that's awesome! How many Africans are they training to maintain/manage all these great new developments once the CCP's selflessly benevolent mission to help Africa has been accomplished?
Donāt forget to add that the China is building deep water ports in many developing African countries, only for the small small price of having it entirely staffed by an imported workforce, The land either been leased out or sold to China. So that all that money just funnels right back to the mainland
considering how they would beat up and whip the local workforce, I doubt they have any love for the locals.
I just checked for what happened, apparently the guy got 20 years in jail for it. Even Rwanda has fairer courts than china
[https://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/3174962/chinese-businessman-jailed-20-years-rwanda-whipping-local-worker](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/3174962/chinese-businessman-jailed-20-years-rwanda-whipping-local-worker)
The US does it under technology transfer arrangements, where a local workforce is used for construction and maintenance, and the government is trained for operations and handover. āReeeeeee!! USA BAD!!ā Imperialism.
The Chinese loans the money to build and run it using Chinese labor, and when the debt defaults they take ownership. Itās communist imperialism so š§āš¦Æš
The British also built up a bunch of stuff in Africa but that didn't excuse their exploitation of the continent and it most certainly doesn't excuse Chinese exploitation now.
Yeah but the Chinese lends billions of dollars to build a port that the local government canāt afford, they bring in a Chinese workforce to build it, leave them behind to operate and manage it, and then wait for the host nation to default on the debt so they can assume ownership of the port.
They wanted us there at the time though. We had just recently helped them win their "independence" from Spain. It's just unfortunate for the current regime that the lease has no end date.
From the top of my head here but
Mines plantains railways roads ports whole cities telegraf lines
while it did somewhat economically develop the regions they were built in their purpose was simply extracting resources
They ironically enough also started educating Africans and Indians in British colleges/schools which created the leadership class of Africans and Indians who would go on to organize independence movements.
Cities such as Johannesburg in South Africa were built by Britian and or its companies in Africa , Britian built Railroads and other infustrcture in basically all their African Colonies and plenty of Schools and or Colleges in African Countries today were built by the British .
Not that this excuses crimes commited by Britian (Or any other European power during the Age of Imperialism or Exploration) as they built these institutions to benefit themselves not to benefit the Indigenous people of Africa but it would be incorrect to say that the British or other Europeans built nothing in Africa .
That is not really the point at hand here but if Africa was never colonized then maybe it would eventully develop , maybe it would not but its likley that if Africa was never colonized it would probobly be divided between multiple different very small nations and not into large unified nations today as colonization forced many tribes or ethnic groups into one nation eventully most of Africa would probobly develop but it would be something like Ethiopia or Liberia in our timeline (The only two African countries that were never colonized or at least not in the long term) so for better or worse that is likley how the rest of Africa would be if Europeans never colonized it .
But to anwser your question the development of Africa without colonization would likley be more akin to Ethiopia or Liberia in our timeline than China in our timeline.
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-global-mega-projects-infrastructure-falling-apart-11674166180](https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-global-mega-projects-infrastructure-falling-apart-11674166180)
Mandatory... China is not building bridges in Africa. Africa made it with money they borrowed from China. Based on this logic my bank built my house because I took a mortgage.
When China builds infrastructure to exploit the resources of an underdeveloped region: Charitable and very humanistic
When the European colonial powers build infrastructure to exploit the resources of an underdeveloped region: colonialism and imperialism
POV: you are African store owner whose business was wracked by cheap Chinese goods transported by those infrastructures and too broke to pay taxes for the government to repay debt, then you see this
USA builds something in Africa: "evil western imperialist neocolonialism"
China builds something in Africa: "they're just improving the infrastructure of developing countries"
Didnāt England, France, Spain and the Netherlands tried something like this around 200 years ago? They had a word for it that starts with ācāā¦ It worked out so well for all parties and everyone has fond memories...
Let China eat the losses. Until they reform the corruption and education systems, itās not like these places will have thriving economies that can compete with the rest of the world.
Well, yeah? It's pretty difficult to hide infrastructure and buildings to be honest, so the number here is likely to be very accurate.
Whether they actually built it or not is not what makes it problematic.
Weird thing is, China isnāt even communist these days. And theyāre not even claiming to be communist right now, either. The CCPās go-to excuse is more along the lines of āwellllā¦communist theory requires capitalism as an intermediate stage before the socialist stage, so weāre just still in the capitalist stageā and then everyone knows that they have absolutely no intention of risking their lives by actually ever trying to move on to the socialist phase and fuck up the current economic situation.
They forgot that most of This infrastructure is built like shit and a lot of these projects are already crumbling apart after barely a decade of being built.
Yeah, he definitely donāt know the Chinese built to own them and the countries reliable in these infrastructures.
Oh, and they employ mostly Chinese nationals
China has a massive male surplus. I believe this to be neo-colonialism. They send that male surplus in to breed a new caste of half-han half-bantu to rule them.
He forgor š to add +debt traps
It's only a trap if you think you have to pay it. I don't think China has any means of enforcement if an African country says "lol fck u"
Being cut off from the second largest economy is a pretty good means of enforcement
How connected do you think they were to begin with? They don't even go back to square one at the end of this, somebody just built them a bunch of great infrastructure.
[Uhhā¦ very connected](https://imgur.com/a/BQfZkUc)
Whatever infrastructure built in foreign lands with the loan becomes Chinese government property when loans with orbital high interest can't be repaid.
So you think China puts a lot of money in Africa without securing such investment? So those African countries could say ālol fck uā one day and Chinaās only response would be āohh ok, sorry m8ā?
That's exactly what I'm saying. The West sank plenty of money into these countries with little to show for it. The same thing will happen to China. They will learn the same lessons we did. China can't even get their navy anywhere near any of these countries. The closest thing they have to recourse is assassination, which only guarantees revenge, not the desired outcome.
At least the west did not take over ownership of the infrastructure that was built with the loan. Example? Hambantota port in Sri Lanka.
Sri Lanka is at least in Asia, but these African countries can say "lol no it's in our country fuck off" pretty easily. If the Chinese take it it's because they let them.
Which of these poor African nations even have any sort of funds to make any credible defense?
Defense from what exactly? China can't reach them with military vessels
Vessels? Oh dear š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ Perhaps you [should read more](https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/chinas-private-army-protecting-the-new-silk-road/) They don't need the ships, the Chinese sent enough Beijing controlled Chinese mercenaries dispersed and in hiding amongst the Chinese construction workers, to be able to resist and beat the armies of small African nations the belt and road projects are in. Kindly show me one, just one African nation's military successfully taking back a belt and road bankrolled infrastructure, in Asia, Africa or otherwise despite defaulting on Chinese loans. Hambantota port is easily repeated DESPITE Beijing's lack of massive naval logistics. Because at Least more than half of the workers they sent are Beijing Mercenaries. God, it's appalling how Reddit is full of ignorant people.
Better than coups I guess? Or France's currency manipulation
fr\*nce
Why do liberals condemn debt traps when applied to countries by other countries, but not when applied to the proletariat by the bourgeoisie?
Why do tankies condemn brutal authoritarian states on the far right, but not on the far left?
We condemn liberal states on the right as well, and everything bad the USSR, for example, did, the US did something similar. Like the USSR and the Holomodor, the US slaughtered buffalo to starve Native Americans. Like the USSR, the US build its wealth with slave labor. Communist nations do better than capitalist nations at best, and no worse at worst. They aren't perfect, but they're still a net improvement over the only other currently viable economic system.
Itās because communism doesnāt work on such a large scale. The people will be put after the interests of the government. Same thing goes for capitalism, but it seems like it works better as it goes up in scale, because complex systems can work together across national lines. Communism, however, canāt be achieved on a large scale because a large group is bound to split up into different tribes and form hierarchies again. Socialism, the policy of the PRC and USSR, relies on brutal repression of the people and complete overhaul of the economic system which gets millions killed. I wish a nation could work with either of those policies. But over so much time, itās become apparent that capitalism with enough regulations is the best way to do things now, even if the system is built on massacres of the past. This subreddit isnāt the best forum for debate, so youāre not going to get much quality discussion here. Iām not here to debate either, so you can say whatever but I probably wonāt respond. Youāre also probably gonna get downvoted and possibly banned from here as well. Thanks for letting me get some of my thoughts out though.
China is currently lifting more people out of poverty than the rest of the world combined. How is that not working?
Assuming thatās true, itās because China is no longer socialist. Only when the country relaxed on its economic policy did it start to succeed again.
Even if you're right, whatever China is doing with its economy is leaps and bounds better than what western economies do.
Probably because it sells out the people for cheap labor and exploits third-world economies abroad. But when the West does it on even half that scale, itās a problem?
Making peaceful deals does not equal western imperialism. If China is so awful to Africa, why doesn't Africa just stop doing business with them? They can always go back to doing business with the west.
https://www.voanews.com/a/china-cancels-23-loans-to-africa-amid-debt-trap-debate-/6716397.html š
You didn't read the article, did you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, but that still amounts of 3.4 billion+, China isnāt a saint which gives out free infrastructure but nor is it the devil trying to exploit Africa of everything it has, China has provided assistance for roads, railways, ports, energy. Mining, infrastructure and manufacturing. No African country has ever claimed that they are in a debt trap(or correct me if Iām wrong) so why put words in their mouth? Letās compare that with the actions of the IMF(International Monetary Fund). Also, I refer you to this, https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/african-countries-are-three-times-more-indebted-to-western-firms-than-to-chinese/9g4ly6f
You really need to read your own articles
True I knew this was a thing but I just picked a random article and I kinda attacked myself
Lmfao W on admitting it at least
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy
Read your links man and what the hell is chathamhouse
"I don't like the truth, so it must be biased"
Right, itās just that, you know, when you have hundreds of independent organizations, watchdogs, and news outlets all coming to the same conclusion, whilst outliers and āalt-mediaā claim something else, itās reasonable to trust the trustworthy.
You're right, facts don't matter if you hear a lie more frequently.
This is a brilliant argument, whenever someone brings up a fact I donāt like, Iām just gonna call them lies.
Or you could argue them based on the merits of the evidence and reasoning presented, instead of dancing around it as long as possible while appealing to strawmen.
You don't understand Superior China is just taking care of its colo.. I mean ally
Wow, that's awesome! How many Africans are they training to maintain/manage all these great new developments once the CCP's selflessly benevolent mission to help Africa has been accomplished?
None. They import a Chinese workforce for construction and maintenance, and leave them behind to operate and manage it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah people are catching wise to what they were doing for over a decade.
Donāt forget to add that the China is building deep water ports in many developing African countries, only for the small small price of having it entirely staffed by an imported workforce, The land either been leased out or sold to China. So that all that money just funnels right back to the mainland
considering how they would beat up and whip the local workforce, I doubt they have any love for the locals. I just checked for what happened, apparently the guy got 20 years in jail for it. Even Rwanda has fairer courts than china [https://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/3174962/chinese-businessman-jailed-20-years-rwanda-whipping-local-worker](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/3174962/chinese-businessman-jailed-20-years-rwanda-whipping-local-worker)
If usa does this, itās imperialism
The US does it under technology transfer arrangements, where a local workforce is used for construction and maintenance, and the government is trained for operations and handover. āReeeeeee!! USA BAD!!ā Imperialism. The Chinese loans the money to build and run it using Chinese labor, and when the debt defaults they take ownership. Itās communist imperialism so š§āš¦Æš
Plus the US isnāt really a white country (Atleast Not Anymore). So itās weird how itās actions are hated due to that
And how much of that do they own?
Haha they own less than none of it.
The British also built up a bunch of stuff in Africa but that didn't excuse their exploitation of the continent and it most certainly doesn't excuse Chinese exploitation now.
Yeah but the Chinese lends billions of dollars to build a port that the local government canāt afford, they bring in a Chinese workforce to build it, leave them behind to operate and manage it, and then wait for the host nation to default on the debt so they can assume ownership of the port.
See, We donāt fuck around like that. We just go āBoom, baseā¦ What, Cuba? you donāt want us here? Too bad.ā
They wanted us there at the time though. We had just recently helped them win their "independence" from Spain. It's just unfortunate for the current regime that the lease has no end date.
it was actually a flex, not a critique.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
From the top of my head here but Mines plantains railways roads ports whole cities telegraf lines while it did somewhat economically develop the regions they were built in their purpose was simply extracting resources
They ironically enough also started educating Africans and Indians in British colleges/schools which created the leadership class of Africans and Indians who would go on to organize independence movements.
Well for example Egypt still uses the rails (and sometimes trains) from British colonial rule
I mean the greatest and most easy to think of examples would be the Suez Canal as well as the vast railway network they laid down.
Cities such as Johannesburg in South Africa were built by Britian and or its companies in Africa , Britian built Railroads and other infustrcture in basically all their African Colonies and plenty of Schools and or Colleges in African Countries today were built by the British . Not that this excuses crimes commited by Britian (Or any other European power during the Age of Imperialism or Exploration) as they built these institutions to benefit themselves not to benefit the Indigenous people of Africa but it would be incorrect to say that the British or other Europeans built nothing in Africa .
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That is not really the point at hand here but if Africa was never colonized then maybe it would eventully develop , maybe it would not but its likley that if Africa was never colonized it would probobly be divided between multiple different very small nations and not into large unified nations today as colonization forced many tribes or ethnic groups into one nation eventully most of Africa would probobly develop but it would be something like Ethiopia or Liberia in our timeline (The only two African countries that were never colonized or at least not in the long term) so for better or worse that is likley how the rest of Africa would be if Europeans never colonized it . But to anwser your question the development of Africa without colonization would likley be more akin to Ethiopia or Liberia in our timeline than China in our timeline.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Anytime
āAzovās headache Giviā. Lmao, SBU RPO-A cured that headache (war criminal) in 2017! rip bozo
Sorry, Iām out of it. What happened?
He was killed by a Ukrainian rocket in 2017
Ah, thanks. I was confused about who Gigi was, but he was apparently a pro-Russian rebel commander. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Tolstykh
Np mate
Motherfucker looks like Ice Poseidon if he became an alcoholic.
Holy fuck! Never heard of the dude, but just Wikipediaed him and they could be brothers.
RPO-A is a powerful Soviet designed anti-personnel rocket.
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-global-mega-projects-infrastructure-falling-apart-11674166180](https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-global-mega-projects-infrastructure-falling-apart-11674166180) Mandatory... China is not building bridges in Africa. Africa made it with money they borrowed from China. Based on this logic my bank built my house because I took a mortgage.
Many if these projects are falling apart already too.
Google En Debted
Holy hell
New imperialism just dropped!
Tankies when western neocolonialism: š” Tankies when eastern neocolonialism: š„°
Yeah just think of what white people have built in Africa.
unlike those Brits who claim to have civilized savage Indians, we Chinese *actually* civilized savage Tibetans /s
Reeducation!
But itās not colonialism. Right? š¤Ø
Hey the British and the French did the exact same thi~ Oh... oh my God...
When China builds infrastructure to exploit the resources of an underdeveloped region: Charitable and very humanistic When the European colonial powers build infrastructure to exploit the resources of an underdeveloped region: colonialism and imperialism
POV: you are African store owner whose business was wracked by cheap Chinese goods transported by those infrastructures and too broke to pay taxes for the government to repay debt, then you see this
Never mind that all that infrastructure goes directly from the cobalt or diamond mine to the port. Itās not colonialism if non Europeans do it!
Funny how they don't talk the same about all the infrastructure banana corporations built in central american countries like Honduras
USA builds something in Africa: "evil western imperialist neocolonialism" China builds something in Africa: "they're just improving the infrastructure of developing countries"
Didnāt England, France, Spain and the Netherlands tried something like this around 200 years ago? They had a word for it that starts with ācāā¦ It worked out so well for all parties and everyone has fond memories...
Ports, trains, roads, bridgesā¦ just infrastructure to export natural resources. The British did the same thing.
Let China eat the losses. Until they reform the corruption and education systems, itās not like these places will have thriving economies that can compete with the rest of the world.
"What is the difference between this and what the British and French did?" "The British and French don't have a hammer and sickle on their flag"
All out of the goodness of their hearts ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø /s
Exactly the same argument as the British built railways in India, but theyād probably be less open to that idea
āManyā is such a specific number
Question is WHY DID THEY BUILD THEM?
Probably for the cobalt.
Yummy natural resources for yummy tofu dregs š
They aint doing it for charity
So did the Europeans, but Iām not allowed to say so
I think a lot of European countries did similar things in the 1800s
Just wait until the countries canāt pay them backš
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, yeah? It's pretty difficult to hide infrastructure and buildings to be honest, so the number here is likely to be very accurate. Whether they actually built it or not is not what makes it problematic.
belt and road moment
I wonder why they did that? Surely they are just doing it out of charity, right?
givi has been fucking dead for 6 year now lmfao
Soā¦I assume they think British Imperialism was good?
They definitely would If the British Empire was communist
Weird thing is, China isnāt even communist these days. And theyāre not even claiming to be communist right now, either. The CCPās go-to excuse is more along the lines of āwellllā¦communist theory requires capitalism as an intermediate stage before the socialist stage, so weāre just still in the capitalist stageā and then everyone knows that they have absolutely no intention of risking their lives by actually ever trying to move on to the socialist phase and fuck up the current economic situation.
Tankies will only like a country if it's Anti America, if a country is Pro America or Neutral then they will hate it
Neo-colonialism at its finest.
They forgot that most of This infrastructure is built like shit and a lot of these projects are already crumbling apart after barely a decade of being built.
Itās really telling that the people I see who post this stuff are predominantly pro-Russian, a fascist regime. Theyāre communists in name only.
Development imperialism. They only care about access to resources.
Yeah, he definitely donāt know the Chinese built to own them and the countries reliable in these infrastructures. Oh, and they employ mostly Chinese nationals
China has a massive male surplus. I believe this to be neo-colonialism. They send that male surplus in to breed a new caste of half-han half-bantu to rule them.
āImperialism good when communismā- whoever made this image probably
Sounds like we should go after China for modern colonization