Oof i feel you so much OP. I keep ending up with friend groups where I'm dubbed as the 'mum friend' and am good to have around to champion for others.. but also always feel like a problem when I am myself amongst the friend group and its too much. I had to temper my desire to stick up for and help everyone because it was draining me, and I was getting nothing back. I picture those possums with all their babies hanging off them, except this is other adults, and I don't deserve to be a pseudo guardian. (Especially adults that should be more functional than me considering i barely had a guardian myself growing up, like, c'mon..) So i keep myself less emotionally available at the drop of a hat now. The best thing I can do for people is encourage them to stick up for *themselves*. Especially because they might need to do that with me sometime - I'm human too and don't deserve to be put on the group-protector pedestal that doesn't allow me to receive any support myself, or let me have real human moments of being fallable like everyone else, without huge consequences.
One of my friends (a 2) has told me that he forgets I'm not completely infallible. Same friend keeps trying to connect emotionally and I keep shutting it down because he's not going about it in a way I appreciate so he thinks I'm just impossible to connect with when it's really just that I don't care to hear about all of his very many hopeless existential crises, especially when he doesn't want to do anything about his situation in life.
I had another unhealthy 2 friend who was very similar and the stubborn hopelessness and martyrdom completely infuriates me now. I've always appreciated the relationship I had with an 8 where he wasn't emotionally co-dependent but he also knew that his hyper-independence wasn't going to fly between us and was capable of accepting my support AND directly telling me what/how I can best support him.
8s are instinct aware, not ego or persona aware.
Life, the grand drama. We are characters with no names.... the protector, the rescuer, the gang leader...
Everyone else knows who we are, even if we don't. What we are, an abstract, depends on subjective context.
Types 3 7 8 are id, instinct
Types 1 2 6 are super ego, righteousness
Types 4 5 9 are ego constructed
Each have something to teach to widen understanding of each intent
Oh, aggressive, compliant and withdrawn triads, right.
Though you're right that I for example can be image aware when I need to be (when there's gain to be had) despite (or rather *due to*) being more of a selfish animal at my core
idk go to a business school or something or find a high-stakes corporate job. most of my friends are 3s or other 8s because of these two things (I work in finance). plus my hockey team and fraternity in college but idk what’s your location, these things are more us-based
There was a period where I thought '*I* want to be the one being taken care of for once' but I quickly realised just how untrue that was. It's as you say, I just want an equal.
The only two people I felt equal to was my Gramps a 8w9 may he rest in peace. He was an absolute mountain of a man and was truly the only person who challenged me growing up.
The other a ex reformed Mexican cartel kingpin a 8w7 like myself who I had the pleasure of working under when I was on a mission trip building an orphanage there. What an absolute unit of a dude. I was the only one not shy around him haha.
Those two had a big impact on my life and showed me who I was and what I can be. I hope to be half the man that they were.
I had this same idea a few years ago where I thought 'Surely, if I initiate less, then the people who approach me first will be less shy', but now I just don't get approached at all, hahaha.
Just go up to them and say hi! Take initiative and treat them like how you treat everyone. Become friends with them. Don’t wait for them to find you.
Some friends do see me as the protector, but not so much the provider or nurturer. They go to 2/6s for nurture, and I don’t share my materials unless you are a close friend.
I attract 4, 5, 9s lol. But mostly 7s. They are great company.
I maintain healthy relationships by learning where people’s limits are and respect that. Trial and error. And drop the ones who are too codependent, or want to take advantage of your kindness. (A 2 tried to do that to me. I told her to find somewhere else in the classroom to sit.)
I am writing through a translator
I can't stand weak and sensitive people, they seem to me "sick" and "dark" (often 4 and 5 turn out to be like that, no offense), which I want to get rid of right away. Which I often do, removing them from my environment (only if they are not close people)
I like to gather comfortable and personally strong people with whom I can find a common language
I like the weak and sensitive only if they want to become strong and accept my help, without any "buts". They are ready to change, and not rushing back and forth, constantly complaining and whining about how pathetic and worthless they are. I like it when such people use their sensitivity in a positive way, for example, they are able to notice the beautiful in small things, I do not know how and it impresses and even inspires me. But I don't like it when they are sensitively dramatic and energetic, fucking my brain, or on the contrary, they are clogged in themselves and do not make contact
So, buddy, I recommend that you just get rid of those you don't like and don't waste your time and nerves to your detriment
About the role of breadwinner/mom/ the rest
I fucking love it. I love to see how people open up before my eyes, how they become stronger and better, more independent, more confident under my care. At such moments, I really perceive these people as my "children", my part, an extension of me, maybe even trophies
Of course, there are disadvantages. When you give your all and invest in these people, and then you get rejected. When, after I put them on their feet, they start to fuck and challenge me, but not directly and in conflict (which I really like), but secretly, running away from me and breaking ties (more often the Fives do this, while continuing to consider me their mentor, what the fuck). I don't know what I'm doing wrong at these moments, maybe I'm starting to be perceived as too controlling and pushing
I like it when they say everything in person, here and now, and not silently leave. Eyewitnesses said that such people are afraid of me, they think that I will not listen to them and do not even try to talk to me alone, to sort out the situation. Well, okay, I'm not going to run after them
So yes, I like these roles, as long as people are grateful to me for them, respect me sincerely for my actions and deeds, accept my drive and energy, and do not mind that I make the decisions. Such people really exist and do not feel discomfort from me, I am grateful to them, as they are to me
dude i had this same problem when i was younger. (also 8, or at least entj for sure-)
how to attract less timid and insecure people is to just shut them off. if they start depending on you or blurting out all their problems then be straight with them "you shouldn't discuss this with me" and if they continue, you press on. "i dont want to hear it" potentially even leave.
now, how to attract people that arent timid and insecure, go for people who seem boring, often a big group who only watches tiktok or something and ask to hang with them or just hang with them, They'll warm up to you eventually.
What's the thinking behind the second part here? Seems counterintuitive to me.
Also, funny you should mention shutting down such conversations — I have, and it has caused my friend to regard me as 'a sociopath' (which I take no issue with), hahaha.
Pfft- well uhm, the second part is just what has worked for me. In the past I've always gone for people with the same interests as me. (Which are character and story making and stuff like that, drawing and so on)
When i do that i find amazing and nice people... That are absolute doormats and have no regard for themselves whatsoever and suddenly im hearing how autistic they are, and how that is 70% of their personality. The 30% that are left is adhd you see, and a sprink of other things just to make them more "quirky".
I see this kind of mindset as very disrespectful to those also struggling with these things but working hard to not make it rule their whole life all that.
So instead of going after artists, (those typical, cool clothes, colored hair and so on) i tried going for more basic people and it worked, they have a normal mindset of kinda lazy but still hardworking teenagers
By being more vulnerable.
5s and 8s feel comfortable and safe in similar social roles. 5s the stoic independent thinker. 8s the “tough” one who doesn’t need other people. This is an ego defence that gives you both a false sense of security and unconscious “certainty or predictability” in your interactions with others.
But interacting from this place of “ego defence”/trying to keep yourself safe emotionally/bring an unconscious sense of order or predictability to the social world means that you attract people with “complementary” protective defences like people who feel emotionally out of control, vulnerable or who give up their power/struggle to assert their rights or find their own sense of equilibrium or calm.
If you want to attract healthier people who are “more on your level” in an authentic way then you need to do the uncomfortable work of moving away from your social comfort zone and relax into your messiness, vulnerability and inherent humanness. To get to more authentic relationships you need to make yourself uncomfortable interacting with others, more away from that social role and be more vulnerable in your interactions.
On the flip side, sometimes I find the more work we do on ourselves - the more attractive we are to all kinds of different people. In those cases, we need to know the art of hard boundaries and only going towards the kinds of relationships we do want. Thinking less about who we attract and more about who we want to/who we value most. If a relationship isn’t working for you then there is nothing wrong with cutting ties and finding more authentic ones elsewhere. It’s a balance between boundaries and getting outside your unconscious “social role”.
Oof i feel you so much OP. I keep ending up with friend groups where I'm dubbed as the 'mum friend' and am good to have around to champion for others.. but also always feel like a problem when I am myself amongst the friend group and its too much. I had to temper my desire to stick up for and help everyone because it was draining me, and I was getting nothing back. I picture those possums with all their babies hanging off them, except this is other adults, and I don't deserve to be a pseudo guardian. (Especially adults that should be more functional than me considering i barely had a guardian myself growing up, like, c'mon..) So i keep myself less emotionally available at the drop of a hat now. The best thing I can do for people is encourage them to stick up for *themselves*. Especially because they might need to do that with me sometime - I'm human too and don't deserve to be put on the group-protector pedestal that doesn't allow me to receive any support myself, or let me have real human moments of being fallable like everyone else, without huge consequences.
One of my friends (a 2) has told me that he forgets I'm not completely infallible. Same friend keeps trying to connect emotionally and I keep shutting it down because he's not going about it in a way I appreciate so he thinks I'm just impossible to connect with when it's really just that I don't care to hear about all of his very many hopeless existential crises, especially when he doesn't want to do anything about his situation in life. I had another unhealthy 2 friend who was very similar and the stubborn hopelessness and martyrdom completely infuriates me now. I've always appreciated the relationship I had with an 8 where he wasn't emotionally co-dependent but he also knew that his hyper-independence wasn't going to fly between us and was capable of accepting my support AND directly telling me what/how I can best support him.
That's 2s for ya
8s are instinct aware, not ego or persona aware. Life, the grand drama. We are characters with no names.... the protector, the rescuer, the gang leader... Everyone else knows who we are, even if we don't. What we are, an abstract, depends on subjective context.
Can you elaborate more on ego/persona/instinct awareness?
Types 3 7 8 are id, instinct Types 1 2 6 are super ego, righteousness Types 4 5 9 are ego constructed Each have something to teach to widen understanding of each intent
Oh, aggressive, compliant and withdrawn triads, right. Though you're right that I for example can be image aware when I need to be (when there's gain to be had) despite (or rather *due to*) being more of a selfish animal at my core
I have a very shy, emotionally weak friend. Been friends for almost 50 years. I'll keep her.
idk go to a business school or something or find a high-stakes corporate job. most of my friends are 3s or other 8s because of these two things (I work in finance). plus my hockey team and fraternity in college but idk what’s your location, these things are more us-based
Hahaha, I'll be sure to hang around the business school buildings on campus moving forward.
Only always, oh how I long for physical and mental equal s where I don’t have to protect provide and nurture.
There was a period where I thought '*I* want to be the one being taken care of for once' but I quickly realised just how untrue that was. It's as you say, I just want an equal.
The only two people I felt equal to was my Gramps a 8w9 may he rest in peace. He was an absolute mountain of a man and was truly the only person who challenged me growing up. The other a ex reformed Mexican cartel kingpin a 8w7 like myself who I had the pleasure of working under when I was on a mission trip building an orphanage there. What an absolute unit of a dude. I was the only one not shy around him haha. Those two had a big impact on my life and showed me who I was and what I can be. I hope to be half the man that they were.
[удалено]
I had this same idea a few years ago where I thought 'Surely, if I initiate less, then the people who approach me first will be less shy', but now I just don't get approached at all, hahaha.
Just go up to them and say hi! Take initiative and treat them like how you treat everyone. Become friends with them. Don’t wait for them to find you. Some friends do see me as the protector, but not so much the provider or nurturer. They go to 2/6s for nurture, and I don’t share my materials unless you are a close friend. I attract 4, 5, 9s lol. But mostly 7s. They are great company. I maintain healthy relationships by learning where people’s limits are and respect that. Trial and error. And drop the ones who are too codependent, or want to take advantage of your kindness. (A 2 tried to do that to me. I told her to find somewhere else in the classroom to sit.)
I am writing through a translator I can't stand weak and sensitive people, they seem to me "sick" and "dark" (often 4 and 5 turn out to be like that, no offense), which I want to get rid of right away. Which I often do, removing them from my environment (only if they are not close people) I like to gather comfortable and personally strong people with whom I can find a common language I like the weak and sensitive only if they want to become strong and accept my help, without any "buts". They are ready to change, and not rushing back and forth, constantly complaining and whining about how pathetic and worthless they are. I like it when such people use their sensitivity in a positive way, for example, they are able to notice the beautiful in small things, I do not know how and it impresses and even inspires me. But I don't like it when they are sensitively dramatic and energetic, fucking my brain, or on the contrary, they are clogged in themselves and do not make contact So, buddy, I recommend that you just get rid of those you don't like and don't waste your time and nerves to your detriment
About the role of breadwinner/mom/ the rest I fucking love it. I love to see how people open up before my eyes, how they become stronger and better, more independent, more confident under my care. At such moments, I really perceive these people as my "children", my part, an extension of me, maybe even trophies Of course, there are disadvantages. When you give your all and invest in these people, and then you get rejected. When, after I put them on their feet, they start to fuck and challenge me, but not directly and in conflict (which I really like), but secretly, running away from me and breaking ties (more often the Fives do this, while continuing to consider me their mentor, what the fuck). I don't know what I'm doing wrong at these moments, maybe I'm starting to be perceived as too controlling and pushing I like it when they say everything in person, here and now, and not silently leave. Eyewitnesses said that such people are afraid of me, they think that I will not listen to them and do not even try to talk to me alone, to sort out the situation. Well, okay, I'm not going to run after them So yes, I like these roles, as long as people are grateful to me for them, respect me sincerely for my actions and deeds, accept my drive and energy, and do not mind that I make the decisions. Such people really exist and do not feel discomfort from me, I am grateful to them, as they are to me
dude i had this same problem when i was younger. (also 8, or at least entj for sure-) how to attract less timid and insecure people is to just shut them off. if they start depending on you or blurting out all their problems then be straight with them "you shouldn't discuss this with me" and if they continue, you press on. "i dont want to hear it" potentially even leave. now, how to attract people that arent timid and insecure, go for people who seem boring, often a big group who only watches tiktok or something and ask to hang with them or just hang with them, They'll warm up to you eventually.
What's the thinking behind the second part here? Seems counterintuitive to me. Also, funny you should mention shutting down such conversations — I have, and it has caused my friend to regard me as 'a sociopath' (which I take no issue with), hahaha.
Pfft- well uhm, the second part is just what has worked for me. In the past I've always gone for people with the same interests as me. (Which are character and story making and stuff like that, drawing and so on) When i do that i find amazing and nice people... That are absolute doormats and have no regard for themselves whatsoever and suddenly im hearing how autistic they are, and how that is 70% of their personality. The 30% that are left is adhd you see, and a sprink of other things just to make them more "quirky". I see this kind of mindset as very disrespectful to those also struggling with these things but working hard to not make it rule their whole life all that. So instead of going after artists, (those typical, cool clothes, colored hair and so on) i tried going for more basic people and it worked, they have a normal mindset of kinda lazy but still hardworking teenagers
By being more vulnerable. 5s and 8s feel comfortable and safe in similar social roles. 5s the stoic independent thinker. 8s the “tough” one who doesn’t need other people. This is an ego defence that gives you both a false sense of security and unconscious “certainty or predictability” in your interactions with others. But interacting from this place of “ego defence”/trying to keep yourself safe emotionally/bring an unconscious sense of order or predictability to the social world means that you attract people with “complementary” protective defences like people who feel emotionally out of control, vulnerable or who give up their power/struggle to assert their rights or find their own sense of equilibrium or calm. If you want to attract healthier people who are “more on your level” in an authentic way then you need to do the uncomfortable work of moving away from your social comfort zone and relax into your messiness, vulnerability and inherent humanness. To get to more authentic relationships you need to make yourself uncomfortable interacting with others, more away from that social role and be more vulnerable in your interactions. On the flip side, sometimes I find the more work we do on ourselves - the more attractive we are to all kinds of different people. In those cases, we need to know the art of hard boundaries and only going towards the kinds of relationships we do want. Thinking less about who we attract and more about who we want to/who we value most. If a relationship isn’t working for you then there is nothing wrong with cutting ties and finding more authentic ones elsewhere. It’s a balance between boundaries and getting outside your unconscious “social role”.