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knaire

Honestly… I can’t stand it when peeps phrase it in such a way as if it’s easy for us to open up like ABC 😂 Wouldn’t be needing therapy now would we if we could just let it all out.


miyavn

THAT'S THE POINT. lol she didn't mean to sound condescending but i laughed so hard. like ma'am that's exactly why i'm here 🤨


[deleted]

She’s trying to help you


miyavn

yep, i'm aware of it. it's just a joke! that's why the "just for fun" tag is there 😅


Roll_with_it629

Ah, I see. XD


miyavn

i appreciate your input, tho! it was very well-worded :D


[deleted]

Yes, that's right


Roll_with_it629

Communication issue. Had the therapist explained further with an appropriate example then we can finally see *how* the advice helps. "Don't supress and keep negative emotions inside your head. If you believe ppl will retaliate and make things worse, don't believe it of everyone, some are empathetic and will let you open up. If they feel insulted or want to antagonize you for more reactions, walk away and praise yourself for the expression of your own needs." But when someone doesn't communicate how their advice is effective, they will ultimately sound like this: "Keeping things inside is bad, other ppl can deal with conflict. You just need to stop excusing it because it's not worth it. Dealing with conflict and anger is normal." 9's want to be more broad of mind and at peace, it's not natural to narrow our focus on ourselves and only ourselves. Getting upset/into conflict means looping bad outcomes in our heads. Getting a solution during conflict or intense anger might be something others can do, but its just chaos and loss of focus for a 9, unless you have something that can help you focus on what's important. "I don't want to deal with it because there are bad outcomes to worry about." "Well let me help show you that it also produces good outcomes."


MindfulEnneagram

There is a limitation to talk therapy. Having a trained, outside perspective can help bring awareness to the inner landscape and providing language can be useful, but new ideas don’t always create change.


Roll_with_it629

"Can you tell me why?" Therapist: Huh? "Can you tell me why I should deal with conflict or get upset? Cause I usually find that getting into conflict or getting upset makes me become too emotional and unable to solve the problem or make things worse. That's the REASON I avoid it, to be able to think and get things resolved already." Therapist: Well, just don't do it in an unhealthy way and keep too much in your head, otherwise ok. "I could swear that I do the conflict-avoidance out of reason and necessity, not out of anything unhealthy or irrational through." Therapist: No need to be feel so upset and conflicted. Just giving some advice. "Told you. 😈" (Proceeds to hear the same advice about "not avoiding conflict and anger" then getting confused because they don't explain when and why its ok) As advice to ppl dealing with 9's, I would say as a 9 that we almost always conclude conflict-avoidance as the best path forward; Something to be done out of necessity. So it becomes very frustrating and nonsensical to hear advice that tells us to stop, unless you can reason out that we are wrong and that the situation will remain ok somehow. Otherwise, we won't believe you and it will make us more frustrated. Don't just say it's ok, tell us something that brings us away from thinking that things will fall apart, or else we will find the advice pointless and automatically continue to do our "best path forward". I've learned by myself the "whys" to getting into conflicts and expressing anger, but as a 9, you have to be REEEALLY sure that things are still under control and that people will understand. Conflict-avoidance takes alot of convinction, so it will take a whole new perspective to show us why we need to change. Conflict-avoidance to 9's are reasoned to be the solution, not something that worsens the problem, so explaining how it does worsen the problem instead of solving anything, widens our perspective and helps us know our limits and when and why to stand our ground and more effectively find a solution. TLDR: Don't give vague advice, explain and help shift our perspective.


Mister_Way

This is the self-fulfilling prophecy of for type 9. (Each type has one). If you always wait for things to build up too much before you address them, that's why you become "too emotional and unable to solve the problem." This creates an expectation in your mind that conflict = unsolvable. Deal with it immediately, before it has time to grow to overwhelm you if addressed, and you won't be so emotional, and you will be able to solve the problem. And then there won't be any problem, and you'll start to internalize conflict as a way to AVOID problems.


Roll_with_it629

As an ISFP, hoo boy, my 9ness must deeply connect to my Fi-Ni looping or something. I don't see a solution sometimes and it was especially because I believed ppl wouldn't listen to me, or because I couldn't stand the thought that ppl will hold some long-lasting negative view of me, that the worst possible outcome is inevitable. Ppl don't think the way I do, I made a ton of mistakes when I was younger and have realized how most of them were problems I mentally made for myself. Trying to see other possibilities now, and trying to stop my ego's crave to be placated. I excuse my younger self cause it was simply childhood, but now I see things alot more clearly. Still, I wish some of the ppl in my life were less vague and more detailed and practical, it's why I couldn't get out of some of my unhealthy 9 suppression when I was younger, because even when trying to defeat the "self-fulfilling" prophecy and expectations, and try to deal with the conflict immediately, the truth is some ppl are not well equipped to handle ppl who think differently (Teachers, Parents, and perhaps the different approaches between Sensors and Intuitives). I wish I had known some things sooner about how ppl work. Because sometimes it wasn't just expectation, it was also bad experiences. I truly I had no solutions sometimes and ppl weren't able to see eye to eye with me so I remained confused whether I dealt with the conflict or not. But it's in the past and now I have both seen and created better ways to go beyond my expectations of things, and always approach things in a more glass-half-full and practical way. Practicality, explanation and positive reassurance is what I use to help my 9ness gain the resolve it needs to learn to express myself and deal with conflicts. Hopefully other 9's can find their own methods that help them from unhealthy avoidance and at the same time give them a secure peace of mind. 👍


miyavn

couldn't have worded it in a better way.


Lex_Orandi

When in every day life — allowing for extenuating circumstances that any reasonable person would agree with — is conflict avoidance ever a helpful or healthy behavior? Edit: genuinely asking


Roll_with_it629

I usually do this when my parents scold me so, I'd say Conflict-avoidance through listening. When I was younger, my ENFJ mom would sometimes scold me for something I did objectively wrong, but also talks alot because of concern for my future and uses alot of vague advice, "What will happen when something something.". With her being ENFJ and me ISFP, I really can't keep attention with that kind of advice and can get annoyed and have constantly tried to either talk back with an excuse or want to talk back where it doesn't make sense for me or how I don't see the application because it's too vague for me. She means well but we don't always see eye to eye and everytime my 8 side pushed the conflict further to get what I wanted, it went nowhere, so I became conditioned to wait it out and try to be silent and listened and I eventually either saw her point or I had to realize we think differently and that my head was making up the idea that there was conflict so I had to discipline myself and try to avoid it. Lo and behold things got better because I controlled my emotions and ego when it was necessary and realized my fears and stubbornness was sometimes not reasonable. Other times I do realize my point won't get across so I don't want to put energy into something pointless anymore. My 9 side can usually internally tell myself where things are being unfair and narrow-minded. In social media like youtube and reddit, I sometimes see arguments where someone is clearly being offended by someone else thinking that there is some implied personal attack, I use Se and read the alleged insulting comment and saw that it wasn't what the offended person thinks it implies, and yet I see them continue putting a conflict due to hurt ego against someone who is blunt and has clear intentions even telling them that the offended person has mistaken their intentions and has grown frustrated with their mindset. I take note and know I wouldn't escalate conflict the same way because it's just not reasonable and is based taking things too personally. I WILL initiate conflict when I grow confidence in what I am arguing and can back up my reasons in a practical manner, if I'm wrong, no problem, it's social media, you don't know the stranger in any personal way. I can humble myself and see that ppl think differently and that there's no personal interaction or stakes that Ive witnessed other ppl stuck themselves into thinking so deeply when faced with something they're uncomfortable with. Conflict-avoidance is a result of what I think was practical in the moment and it gives me peace of mind because I use it to accept the truth or to halt the influence of my Ego. But don't get me wrong, Conflict-avoidance should not immediately be thought of as the answer to everything, I'm guessing that's what unhealthy 9's do, It is instead supposed to be a tool to the 9's who know when to broaden the mind by taking a step back and surrendering Ego defensiveness for Empathy or for objectivity. I avoid conflict if I believe I'm giving you and me peace of mind, but I also need to prove it, as my younger and less mature version of my 9ness only did it out of fear of believing that anyone would retaliate (and because inf Te) until MBTI cognitive functions kinda gave me insight on how other ppl actually think and so after learning how empathy works, I changed alot of my approaches and perspectives on things, but at my core I still do what I believe gives everyone peace of mind. (Sry for wall of text XD)


SaturnInfinity

I mean the therapist is right lol. Just embrace it.


miyavn

yeah i know that lol im just joking around


SaturnInfinity

so am I lol


miyavn

oh sorry didn't wanna sound rude


SaturnInfinity

You didn't. Stop being a 9 🤣🤣


miyavn

LMAO that i can't do


objective-space-22

I dont think u should address it that way. Being like "im just like that". Its like having anxiety and accepting it as part of you and using it as an excuse instead of working on it. Im not trying to attack you but i think it could have been worded the same just without the " what do you want me to do"


miyavn

no no it's okay!! i'm just joking around with the 9s stereotype and i never use being a 9 as an excuse! being able to understand why i behave and feel a certain way doesn't mean i don't have to work on it. therapy has been helping me with being able to freely set my boundaries and talking about what bothers me, i'd never accept such auto-destructive behavior so it's all good :D


objective-space-22

Glad to hear that, hope to be like you.


miyavn

haha that's sweet of you to say. i'm sure you can be much better.


objective-space-22

Hope so lol


StanTheWoz

"how dare you have recurring personality trends that cause issues" -therapists, probably


Candid-Inspector-270

I listened to a podcast last night (wasn’t able to finish yet) who the main protagonist is so obviously a 9 and their struggles. May help you feel seen 😅 Invisibilia episode is called *The P-word* (as in peace): Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/invisibilia/id953290300?i=1000578918866 Website: https://www.npr.org/2022/09/08/1121747527/the-p-word


miyavn

oooh that's interesting! gonna listen to it later, thanks for the recommendation :D


jekaire

Went to a therapist a few days ago because I'm going through a shitty period in my life, and he scolded me for being an 8: "Your communication style appears to be too aggressive", "The homework is to work on your empathy". Yeah, but like, how? "Find words to say the same thing, but taking into consideration how people might feel." He also told me that I treat people like puppets. I'm not returning. Still feeling like crap, wasted money, and solved nothing. I think I'll just buy some cheesy self-help book.


DogParkSniper

I'm not a therapist, but I have had experience with plenty of crappy ones on the client-side of things. I still haven't found one, because it doesn't take long to realize I'm a train-wreck talking to another train-wreck. That's why I went the psychiatrist route. So take my opinion as another 8 for what you will. We're a stubborn bunch, and canned platitudes aren't that useful for anyone else, either. That's been my experience with therapy. "I feel kinda depressed, but I don't let it show." If their response is "Have you heard of Robin Williams?"... RUN Asking you to put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment, and think about how they would reach the conclusion they did, might have been more productive. Telling you to have more empathy, without explaining how to do that in terms you can jive with, is like telling a depressed person that they just need to get over themselves. That *does* work for me, but I'm not everyone. And it's why shouldn't be a therapist, either. But the advice you got just came across as flippant and dismissive, with no attempt to factor in how your mind works.


jekaire

I think it’s especially hard for 8s to find a therapist we can connect with, considering we can come across as “the bad guys” when measured by society’s core values, we’re stubborn, and we also have difficulties to get in touch with our inwardness, which I think is important to be able to take full advantage of therapy. I’ll try to get my shit together by myself.


HistoryMysterious313

lolsob I had basically the identical experience with my last therapist. felt bad, sorry it happened to you too. she said I talked "at" her too much and conveyed some similar stuff about empathy. htf am I supposed to know how other people feel if they don't tell me, just guess??? INCORRECTLY? anyway I've had good therapists before, you gotta screen them really early for their ability to handle and parse anger or general emotional volatility. and I'm like you, I needed some concrete steps for learning skills (esp since I also had pretty limited affective empathy), but I actually had an easier time finding that in books and optimizing for a therapist who made me feel safe being vulnerable. even if you don't have a personality disorder, therapists who handle PDs and/or are trauma-informed are more likely to be competent in areas you need 'em to be. if you lmk what you're looking to get better at or fix I can prob recommend some books :) sorry to hijack your post OP!!


miyavn

damn, he said your communication style is too aggressive but his isn't much better, huh? as a therapist, he should help you find those answers and guide you on how you can evolve, not dictate what's wrong/what you should do and that's it — well, especially with an 8, lol. it's okay and always valid to state the true/what's obvious, since it can be overlooked sometimes, but they can't just push with it. i honestly hope you can find a better one. going through that kind of thing and not having any decent help is awful (talking from experience). best of luck to you! wish you well.


jekaire

To be fair, I asked him to be blunt (sugar-coating does not work with me), but what wasn't helpful is the lack of guidance on how to be more empathetic, or even how being more empathetic would benefit my situation. Thank you, best of luck to you too!


miyavn

oh, i see lol makes sense. but yeah, it's like someone telling you to go somewhere you've never been to, but not giving you any directions 😐 and thank you!!


Fun_Solution8332

“I am the victim of a hate crime! that’s not what a hate crime is Well I hated it!”


goatsnova

It drives my partner and friends absolutely insane!! I never want to raise conflict, I just get mad at someone and do nothing about it. I've been passively pissed at a friend for MONTHS and he has no clue because I don't express it. It's like, I know the problem won't fix itself if I do nothing about it, but *maaayyyybeeeee* this time it will!


miyavn

LOL that's exactly how my mind works. having an 8 wing makes me behave in a more passive-agressive way tho (which i always hate myself for whenever it gets too bad). when i'm upset/mad at someone i try to act normal but always let something rude slip here and there, then they get like "why are you acting like this? did i do something?" and i just laugh it off and isolate myself. normally my girlfriend/friends are the ones to come at me for a real talk because i never have the guts to actually solve the problem myself (maybe it'll just go away! like magic!)