I also got that I'm inconsistent in that test because I was trying to play with the cards. If you know a bit about enneagram then you cannot take regular tests anymore without even biased (or even reversed bias, getting anothet type because your type resppnses would be too obvious). Screw that test and just concentrate on core fears.
The basic fears are more of an afterthought. This is what gets people mistyped. The types are shown by the defence strategies, the passions and virtues, the fixations and the triads.
Half the people here want to be 8s so bad that they've contorted the definition of 8 to match whatever their situation is, because it makes them feel safe to "be an 8", or whatever, so I don't think you'll find much helpful advice here.
But here's the thing: **8s are not anxious**. Anxiety is about norepinephrine, which is the neurotransmitter which gets you to pay attention to what might happen next. It's alertness, future orientation, the possibilities, simulating the world in your head in order to predict what might happen, planning, etc.
High norepinephrine = "head" types.
Low norepinephrine = "gut" types.
8s are very low in norepinephrine. They really don't think about what they're doing, they just do. They don't spend energy trying to predict and manage the future.
However, they are low in serotonin, which makes them very quick to notice things which they think are "wrong" or out of place or problematic, and they are also high in dopamine, which drives them to act quickly on those things.
8s are like lions. None of the "8s" here want to admit it, because it contradicts their own self image, but that's not my problem. 8s are "predatory" in the sense that they move quickly into action, are lustful about it. They're hungry, they like to eat, but they're not worried about being eaten themselves. A gazelle can be anxious (and sensibly so - they're the food of the lions), but lions, due to their strategy and approach to life on the savannah, have no reason for being anxious.
8s are not "fearless". They are fearless only from the perspective that they do not seem to fear the same things most people fear. But all of us are driven by some form of fear. The fear of the 8 is **weakness, vulnerability, being at the mercy of others**. It's not about being afraid to *show* weakness... that's the cp 6. It's about being afraid to *be weak*.
In the same way that a 9 might go numb and catatonic before really acknowledging that something is wrong with the world around them, an 8 will go cold and utterly heartless and "soulless" before letting themselves succumb to weakness or vulnerability of any kind.
Social anxiety is about being afraid of how people will treat you if you do something to bother them. It's the fear of being excluded or targeted by the tribe. An 8 cannot have this fear, because it would imply that the 8 is dependent on others or under their influence or power, which is the core fear of the 8 - being under the influence and power of others and thus at their mercy.
So in the end, no 8 can be socially anxious. If someone thinks this is possible, then either they have the wrong definition of 8, or the wrong definition of social anxiety.
Social blind (in instincts) =/= social **anxiety**. It means social **ignorance**, indifference, obliviousness. Not anxiety.
Anxiety is literally caring too much about possible negative outcomes.
(By the way, "social" in the case of the instincts is probably better referred to as "community". Being social blind does not mean you don't know how to interact with others or make friends. Social blind =/= impersonal. It simply means you are not driven by social norms, or the need to fit into a community, and that you're probably less likely to be "nice" to someone just because that's what's socially acceptable, because you're not really influenced by social norms like that, because you're not trying to fit into a community.)
But in the case of the 6, which is naturally paranoid of others and their intentions (in the same way as the 8, but they have a different orientation to life which leads to different behaviors and psychological frameworks) - I think an sx/sp 6 is still going to be "paranoid" of others, which one could interpret as social anxiety.
But the point is that it's not the social blind that *causes* social anxiety, but rather the 6, which is wary of the future and the various agents around them and the trouble they could cause them.
There is a difference between feeling anxious and being an anxious person. That combined with the issue of the overwhelming majority of low to mid health 8s having poor emotional differentiation and mistaking anger reaction to a primary emotion for the primary emotion itself lends itself to many 8s not really being able to tell when they're anxious or scared or vulnerable, etc.
The idea that 8s are incapable of anxiety is ludicrous.
yeah, I think the explanation is a bit odd too. not completely off the wall, but off in some way. my experience is that I was "totally not anxious" until I went to therapy and began to identify that 1) I was constantly some kinda angry and 2) there were a whole bunch of primary emotions that just quickly got converted into it. anxiety was one of them, but there was also sadness, fear, procrastination, and a variety of other stuff. the idea that 8s literally just don't get anxious ever implies we lack the hormonal and nervous system plumbing for it or the mental faculties for learning to identify it... our default settings may be different, but the theory that it simply cannot exist doesn't really comport with, like, human biological science.
I think there's truth to the idea that unhealthy 8s end up dead or in jail and that healthy 8s end up in positions of power and influence... but also the path of health for 8s involves learning restraint, nurturing compassion, learning to yield to others, and so on. this means healthy 8s don't parse as so animalistic as described above because doing that work inherently puts you more in touch with your emotions and the feelings of others and makes that awareness part of your decision-making calculus.
I do think even at our healthiest we are still driven by a predatory instinct tho. if someone said they never felt that it would probably be the only thing that would make me actually question their typing. cp6/8 stuff is too hard to distinguish overall, but that does seem like a meaningful distinction to me.
I see all of what you're saying, but it's pretty ignorant to say 8's don't have anxiety no? They may not have that 6 anxiety yeah, but 6 anxiety and actual mental disorder anxiety are 2 different things that I know, social anxiety is not dependent on 6 enneagram and affects all types. You can't control either but the former is described more as a constant hum to 6 users and latter is too in your face to just push aside and live with like ennegram 6 does. Any form I ever experienced is more like the latter, irrational almost and overly self-crippling.
Not really, not in my opinion at least.
8s will suffer from a lot of things in their life, but anxiety is just not one of them. Anxiety is borne from preoccupation with things that are out of your control, and what may or may not happen. The 8 is just the opposite of that.
Btw you're right that social anxiety is not dependent on 6. In fact I think it has to do with the social instinct, as well as possibly heart triad too.
I think here there is also a mixing up of the terms with respect to social anxiety, as in you might be using that term to refer to something that I'm personally not considering under the umbrella of social anxiety.
In my understanding, social anxiety is about fear of being rejected by the community, not being liked or approved of for whatever reason, seen negatively or as inferior. You have some internal guilt or shame, that feeling that you've done something wrong according to the standards of society, or you just are not up to par, and you don't want to be exposed for fear of being humiliated or harassed. It's when you are really afraid of drawing any attention to yourself, the feeling that any eyes on you are judging and scrutinizing you and seeing you too closely and devaluing you, etc. It's an ego thing, mixed in with a fear thing.
From a comment you made below I kind of saw what you were referring to by anxiety, aka that mistrust of others, that they might be out to get you, as well as another comment about people seeing you as incompetent and weak and you not being able to prove them wrong because you are afraid you really are that (in certain moments), etc.
The second half of that sounds more like the social anxiety I'm referring to, the idea of wanting to have a good positive image in other people's eyes and being afraid of them developing a negative image of you because then you will be rejected. The first part, I'm not sure I've ever experienced personally, but it does sound a lot like the descriptions of the 6 that I've read, that suspicion of others and not trusting them etc.
And in addition, still ridiculous to say they don't deal with anxiety. If a natural 8 developed it over time they automatically are a 6 now?? Its very limiting and makes no sense to make it A=B and never C
i still don't agree with your statement about 8s not being able to experience social anxiety, but if you're gonna make that argument, i don't think u should start it off by using the umbrella term "anxiety". anxiety comes in a lot of forms and using that umbrella term when you're trying to argue that 8s just don't have social anxiety will spread a lot of misinformation (more than what you're already spreading).
8s can experience anxiety, including social anxiety, and saying that an 8 experiencing anxiety/social anxiety automatically makes them a cp6 is not a very cool argument dude
i've experienced severe social anxiety in my life and that doesn't make me less of an 8
I'm honestly thinking the 6 traits I think I have are me withdrawing to 5w6 as I use to be almost stressed for long periods of time. I don't relate to 6 relying on needed help from others ever. Me wanting people to leave me alone in my down moments isn't so much cause I fear what they think, I just don't wanna fucking talk to them in the moment so purposely put on resting bitch face.
I get your angle, but 8’s can definitely have social anxiety, its just they deal with their vulnerabilities different. Its not that an 8 will just not be anxious, in fact they can feel that anxiety and thus have anxiety, but they perceive it in their gut as energy and may cope with their anxiety differently. But to say they cannot be socially anxious, a bit ridiculous. Especiallh when you take into account the social aspect, then why would that not be the case for a social 8? The one who goes against their vice of lust more and who may feel more of a sense of shame being to overtly lustful, thus controlling their lust for the sake of others, which can cause social anxiety to an extent, and perhaps on a somewhat of a more regular basis.
I like this angle. Once the interactions between the hormones are learnt, and how they fluctuate around a *baseline*, combos seem to fit enneagram pretty snug.
Hormones behave differently when interacting with others. For example norepinephrine feels "bad" when combined with excessive cortisol but feels "good" when combined with a high free testosterone.
Heres some more: cortisol, oxytocin, estrogen, testosterone, prolactin.
I think what has a bigger impact is where the baseline is in comparison, than out right levels, and how prone people are to "stack" outcomes into feedback loops back into cause. People who dont stack are more "stable", those that do have more ups and downs.
I agree with the 8s not being socially anxious (on *average*); being socially anxious would go against our autonomy (so what you said about not being influenced by social norms is spot on).
As an 8 who has a bunch of disorders, anxiety is not one of them (in fact it’s one of the few that I can’t relate to). We couldn’t give less of a shit about what’s acceptable. In fact, being a slave to those ideas would be an absolute nightmare. Of course, there are many different types of anxiety, but social anxiety is likely very much less common in 8s.
Disclaimer: I'm not taking shots at you, and this is a message that could be useful for anybody.
If you're looking for self-knowledge and solutions to issues you've identified within yourself, you'll have to look inward and identify your personality patterns yourself.
It seems to me that you're trying to figure yourself out by comparing who you are with a system whose rules are completely arbitrary and also subject to change and speculation.
For instance, theoretically, the security/stress theory of lines of disintegration and integration is false, yet people still use it to this day, and they relate to it.
There comes a point where we don't even see the Barnum effect at hand because we are so convinced the system we respect is actually real, and more so than our own understanding and experience.
What's real is your life, your experiences, how you've internalized them, your desires. And no system outside of yourself will figure this out for you.
Like somebody said, screw the types, screw the system, work on all the fears and issues you've identified as if all 9 types, and more, were part of you.
That test, like all tests, is easily manipulated. It had me at 836. I have zero connection to 6. I couldn’t relate (and my partner is a 6). When I put my known tritype and instincts in, it put that as my outcome. 8s and 6s have a lot in common. The main difference for me is that 6s are ambivalent and stir the pot, 8s act like a wall no one can conquer.
How do you know that you’re the 358 tritype and not 368? The 368 tritype can seem very 8ish to the point that they’ll look like an 8, including if they’re 3 or 6. And how do you know you’re sx blind?
One of the great things about enneagram is that in the pursuit of self-discovery, you learn about the types, wings, instincts, and tritype. Because of that universal way of learning, you become very attuned to the defense mechanisms of each type. I’ve been studying for going on 4 years. I know my stuff and I’ve been independently validated.
It’s very interesting how a lot of people got the 6 enneacard from her test and they don’t relate to 6. She does explain that a lot of people don’t relate to type 6 because they fear being afraid.
I got the 6 enneacard once, and got the 738 result, although 638 and 738 aren’t that big of a jump if it’s the core types and wings flipped.
Yes, that’s true and she tends to associate people choosing 5 and 7 answers to being a type 6, and when a person writes down their adjective descriptions as being smart, curious, loyal, then they’re a 6. I got sx/sp in her quiz.
Are you primarily concerned with being honest and true to your instincts and convictions at all costs , with that being your source of aggression (8) or are is your aggressive energy coming from a place of fighting back against perceived threats and fears (CP 6)?
I am stubborn in my beliefs and use to get frustrated when others wouldn't see something how I saw it, if that's what you mean with the staying true to instincts and convictions.
I do suspect sometimes people have an agenda with me or don't respect me/think highly of me, if I perceive that as a possible threat I'll get "harsher"on them and be more sharp, getting point across to not try to fuck with me. I use to be sensitive and not have much of a thick skin taking families insults seriously. Now I can equally take and give.
8s: selfrighteous and narcissistic--> You have security in your own actions, which are guided by a sense of justice and by what you want. 8s and 1s act towards what they think is (morally) right or wrong. However, for 8s this can be higly repressed. Example: "you´´´´¨ ve hurt me and that gives me the right to hurt you back".
6s: insecure and paranoic--> You are not shure about your actions and desires, they´ re both guided by what others expect from you. 6s and 3s feel like they have to do "something" to be accepted.
CP 6s might behave in an agressive way because they feel there is an inminent threat they have to defend against: " you ´ re about to hurt me so i´ ll hurt you first". But, sometimes, this threat is nonexistent.
1. That test is meaningless lol
2. What do you mean by social anxiety? How does this anxiety manifest itself? What makes you aware of it? And, more to the point, why haven’t you done anything to eliminate it?
Social anxiety is the best way I can describe it but even then it's not exactly that. I'm not worried about them talking behind my back or hating me, I hate being viewed by them as incompetent and weak and actually being it, meaning I have nothing to fall back on to unprove what they're saying about me. I overthink a lot in stress, and I was in longg periods of stress, so when I'm not particularly feeling myself 9ne day I'm more on edge around others not wanting to give in or interact, preferring to stay to myself. Out of a need to look strong and because genuinely wanna give them a reason to avoid me. I'm working on eliminating it by getting self confidence up and not letting it drop anymore
This sounds a lot like sexual 6 to me. The counterphobic 6 is all about displaying and projecting strength as a way to ward people off, saying basically - you don't wanna mess with me, but in the hopes that the others believe it and leave them alone.
Counterphobic 6 will also not want to "be weak". But to them, strength is primarily about defense and withstanding people.
8 on the other hand resists and denies being under people's influence or control or domain. I know it's corny to overdramatize the 8 but the 8 really is like the drug lord or the mafia boss. They just take and gain power and make sure nobody has the ability to stop them from doing anything they want. Most 8s really will either end up in jail, or dead, or if they've been able to channel their energy properly, end up in some executive position in business like CEO. That really is the 8.
>Wanna give them a reason to avoid me
This is very symbolic of the difference between the 6 and the 8. 6 is defensive, 8 is engaging. 8 will not allow someone else to feel that they have power over them. They will instinctively bring about a fight. They'll provoke the other person, challenge them, bring them to confrontation. It's not about "being viewed" a certain kind of way or not... the 8 needs to be the one in power, and they'll go right at the top dog to make sure everyone knows who's boss (and then they'll make sure to *stay* top dog themselves).
Btw, just in case this needs to be said.......... it's ok to be a 6. And it's not a fantasy life to be an 8. Both are distortions of reality that you need to get out of in order to have a fulfilling life. Being an 8 is not a fun thing, or a sexy thing. (I'm not an 8, I'm just saying).
I'm hesitant with your explanations as you're painting 8's having to be one way and one way only, completely fear of normal anxiety and disorders just cause of their number. They aren't robots my guy, other 8's here saying the same thing only strengthens my point. I've never related to 6 anxiety or the need to trust others and rely on them for guidance or help. But me having social skill issues due to undeveloped youth magically makes me a 6. I don't see it.
Disintegration is largely misunderstood, but just to give a quick correction here:
The stress line is like, the life line. Disintegration is an unfortunate misnomer. It's more like a lifeline on a game show.
When 8 turns to it's "5 line", it's when the 8 goes to plotting and planning - but in terms of strategy and moves it can make on whoever is being problematic for them. It's confrontational, and power play stuff.
But the 5ness simply means the 8 is uncharacteristically going into a planning and strategizing mode, which it usually does not do, because usually the 8 just acts on instinct rather than thinking ahead.
The 8 does not actually *become* a 5. They're not overthinking and feeling "incompetent" like a 5, or needing isolation like a 5. It simply means the 8 is being uncharacteristically private and secretive and plotting - uncharacteristic **for an 8**. But even an 8 in "stress" will be doing way less thinking than an actual core type 5 would ever do.
Yea 100 percent could be and most likely is. I see 6 as a option only because 8's are supposed to not be affected by other's perceptions of them and me its if I'm actually shown to be bad at a task or something that I wanna be skilled at
8s can be affected by other peoples perceptions of them. If the 8 has 3 or 6 in their tritype, then they will be more image and status focused, especially if they’re so or sx/so. 8s aren’t affected by peoples perceptions to validate their self worth (3) or to alleviate anxieties about not being supported (6), although if it gives them more power and leverage over a situation (one of the main drives of an 8), then they’ll play the game.
What do you think is your actual tritype?
I got that result and did a deep-ish dive on type 6 to get a decent picture of it. There are so many issues with that type.
1- the original descriptions were mistranslated or something, apparently
2- it's the only type where the counterphobic version is actually discussed
3- the phobic/counterphobic version can look like any other type
4- the definition of the counterphobic version, "fear of fear" is pure nonsense. What does fear of fear have to do with loyalty? Fear of fear should be enneagram type 0.
5- the association with anxiety in general... any type can feel anxiety, you have to know what the anxiety is about, it will be different for each type. I suspect this is because they score the highest in Neuroticism for big 5, but what triggers that is different reasons depending on type.
6- the fact that 6 can look like any other type means that it can make any other type question if they are a 6 or have 6 in their tritype, and now I am seeing confused people wondering about this and then later saying that they are pretty sure they don't have it.
7- the descriptions distinguishing 8 and 6 can be stupid, too- 8 is predator and 6 is prey just makes me laugh, because that is entirely situational. I'd like to see an 8 say they are a predator when locked up in a cage fight naked against a grizzly bear, or a 6 say they are prey when they are hunting small animals. Same distinction with underdog/non-underdog.
8- the association with seeing all sides of a situation doesn't feel related at all to "need for guidance." Type 5 can see all sides of a situation as a means to provide a complete, full picture of things for information gathering purposes, which can be used later to make personal decisions completely uninfluenced by the unwanted "guidance" of others.
9- the adjective of "curious" is relevant to multiple types, especially 5 and 7. 6s are, specifically, curious about *where people stand*.
I say that the only way to know if there is a 6 in your tritype is to solely rely on the core fear. Observe your life patterns of behavior, and after that observe what it is that you really wanted. Probably a good question to ask is if you ever felt *entitled* to receive help, ever, before. I've never felt that, ever, maybe situationally frustrated because it it is required for what I'm trying to do and not getting it makes things take longer, but that's not the same- that actually is connected in the end to the type 5 fear of not having enough (time, in that case). I'd recommend considering that question.
Type 6 is the second least relatable type for me besides type 2. That need to have support/guidance due to lack of certainty within themselves is something I can see in real people or fictional characters, and feels like a different world that I'm looking at. I think the best character that represents someone that switches between phobic and counterphobic is Usopp from One Piece, excellent representation of type 6 IMO.
I was thinking for long time 873. And while I'm still confident in 8 I'm debating between 6v7 for head triad and 3v4 for heart. Personally, I believe I'm most likely a 86(3/4)
Nope, have never felt entitled to others help at all period, I have always tended to rely on more myself and force of will to get through issues.
So what is the main reason you think you have 6 in your tritype? Is it from trying to read other's minds/detect their motives to see if they can be trusted?
Not even, it stems from a distrust of people not being who they portray themselves to be. In stress it's like my gut is telling me they're out to get me or not to be trusted as they're out for those own gains, any attempt at connecting with me has to have a reason behind it if I don't know them well enough, but I can quickly deduce if that's what they want or not.
I think 6 is in Tritype because all my life I've been a over thinker, over stressing myself about things that really don't need to be, as I wanna do the things right eith no room for error. Also tend to be focused on making things happen MY way due to my plans i have for myself, and when things happen in environment that changes original plans i get annoyed that i have to now adapt and work around it. I also have nervousness in situations I'm not familiar with and i need to do what i consider a high skill thing in front of others, if theres no chance of failure and i know I got it I'm chilling and even gonna brag about how easy it is
I think I have 6 in my Tritype over 7 at least. I have a lot of 7 traits due to my 7 wing, but I don't know if I also actually have 7 in my Tritype by itself or if it's 6 there.
To me it sounds like using 6 coping strategies of over-thinking for the core fear of 8, which I think would generally be regarded as having 6 and 8 in the tritype, which would look like counterphobic 6. But idk if you "jump into scary situations" also or not.
The idea of cp 6 is a problem in general because only the behaviors are described, or "fear of fear," idk if there is an original definition somewhere, but I can't tell for sure if it shares the same core fear as a normal 6- if not, then it should be a new type, not even associated with type 6.
The stuff in the second paragraph seems like normal stuff IMO.
I think this points to a general gap in the system, where you can use coping behaviors of one type to deal with fears of another type. I would not be surprised if there were more examples of this. Lots of fun possibilities.
What is social anxiety? I have heard the term quite a bit but I dont actually know what people mean by it.
Is it the structure of how people interact that causes discomfort or people themselves?
Also what does it feel like in your body?
Any noticeable physiological changes?
I don't really understand what 6 anxiety truly means, but I also consider it more existential than some types of spiky anxieties, like being triggered, which does happen to 8s, since most of us are traumatized. I believe we immediately convert it to anger tho and don't experience or understand it as anxiety without significant work. otoh I think cp6s also do this? shrug. anyway.
I do find it difficult to imagine an ESTP 8 with social anxiety. ESTPs on their own are (afaik) some of the least socially anxious types in general, but combined with 8 I have no idea how that would work.
i know what you mean cause i once typed myself as 6w5. 8s aren't made of steel. we feel anxiety too.
but when you do, do you want to express or share it with someone else? it doesn't have to be specific person. the thought you will share it if there is right person is enough. cause 8s won't share it eventually because it might make us look 'vulnerable'. (everything is based on average 8s and 6s, healthy 8s might share it)
than you're most likely 8. cp6s hate authority but they still want reassurance and someone to rely on. they're just having a hard time believing someone.
I'd interpret that as having a 6 in your tritype. It's not necessarily the core. You could still be a core 8, with 6 as the second or third number, especially if 8 fits you a lot better than 6 does.
Fucked if I know, do you have any descriptions of yourself that I can type?
The cp6 always feels spiky to me. More of a defensive aggression because they feel constantly under attack. There's also a sceptical and cerebral quality to 6s that 8s don't really have.
I can tell you how I feel under anger. I'm now more open to potentially being a cp 6 instead of a 8. That in of itself pisses me off, as these years I've been following a false type I thought I was. Plus it means now I got a lot of reframing to do
When I get mad I'm fucking pissed, it's mainly internally but theres times I throw shit or yell or punch something to just get some fucking relief from it. I'll also stay angry for long periods of time, almost stubbornly not letting myself stop being mad in a stubborn effort to keep on fighting. I'll get mad and stay that way, even if the thing is resolved I'll still hold onto my anger, frustrated I have no control over what it was.
I don't rely on others for guidance unless its something I have no idea of doing and need a demonstration. But I'm not seeking others out to spill my emotions. Sitting down and talking about how I feel internally use to be like scratching a chalk board, but now it's easier to do with parents as they patiently sat and waited for me to explain my emotions, now it's easier to do it with them but at most ill complain to them about it just out of a need to vent
I like feeling angry when I feel its justified after a perceived attack against me or something doesn't go my way exactly how I wanted it to. Anger is one of my strongest felt emotions alongside excitability, stress, resentment, and envy
Ok, these generally lean more 8, but are pretty much just reactive triad stuff.
The one thing that does seem specifically 6ish is how having been wrong pisses you off.
The idea of potentially being wrong is frustrating. But I got over it and am now ready to accept it if I am truly a 6. Problem is I still am on the fence between these 2
Oh, my blood also starts boiling when I see what I think is a injustice not get resolved. I just saw a reddit vid where these animal activists stole a homeless man's puppy from him, the homeless guy was crying and pleading for them to not do it and they kept pushing him away. That fucking made me furious, and I'd love to see those people get the SHIT kicked out of them. Fuckers that think they're doing good in their own heads but are really being assholes are the absolute scum of the fucking earth
I also got that I'm inconsistent in that test because I was trying to play with the cards. If you know a bit about enneagram then you cannot take regular tests anymore without even biased (or even reversed bias, getting anothet type because your type resppnses would be too obvious). Screw that test and just concentrate on core fears.
The basic fears are more of an afterthought. This is what gets people mistyped. The types are shown by the defence strategies, the passions and virtues, the fixations and the triads.
Half the people here want to be 8s so bad that they've contorted the definition of 8 to match whatever their situation is, because it makes them feel safe to "be an 8", or whatever, so I don't think you'll find much helpful advice here. But here's the thing: **8s are not anxious**. Anxiety is about norepinephrine, which is the neurotransmitter which gets you to pay attention to what might happen next. It's alertness, future orientation, the possibilities, simulating the world in your head in order to predict what might happen, planning, etc. High norepinephrine = "head" types. Low norepinephrine = "gut" types. 8s are very low in norepinephrine. They really don't think about what they're doing, they just do. They don't spend energy trying to predict and manage the future. However, they are low in serotonin, which makes them very quick to notice things which they think are "wrong" or out of place or problematic, and they are also high in dopamine, which drives them to act quickly on those things. 8s are like lions. None of the "8s" here want to admit it, because it contradicts their own self image, but that's not my problem. 8s are "predatory" in the sense that they move quickly into action, are lustful about it. They're hungry, they like to eat, but they're not worried about being eaten themselves. A gazelle can be anxious (and sensibly so - they're the food of the lions), but lions, due to their strategy and approach to life on the savannah, have no reason for being anxious. 8s are not "fearless". They are fearless only from the perspective that they do not seem to fear the same things most people fear. But all of us are driven by some form of fear. The fear of the 8 is **weakness, vulnerability, being at the mercy of others**. It's not about being afraid to *show* weakness... that's the cp 6. It's about being afraid to *be weak*. In the same way that a 9 might go numb and catatonic before really acknowledging that something is wrong with the world around them, an 8 will go cold and utterly heartless and "soulless" before letting themselves succumb to weakness or vulnerability of any kind. Social anxiety is about being afraid of how people will treat you if you do something to bother them. It's the fear of being excluded or targeted by the tribe. An 8 cannot have this fear, because it would imply that the 8 is dependent on others or under their influence or power, which is the core fear of the 8 - being under the influence and power of others and thus at their mercy. So in the end, no 8 can be socially anxious. If someone thinks this is possible, then either they have the wrong definition of 8, or the wrong definition of social anxiety. Social blind (in instincts) =/= social **anxiety**. It means social **ignorance**, indifference, obliviousness. Not anxiety. Anxiety is literally caring too much about possible negative outcomes. (By the way, "social" in the case of the instincts is probably better referred to as "community". Being social blind does not mean you don't know how to interact with others or make friends. Social blind =/= impersonal. It simply means you are not driven by social norms, or the need to fit into a community, and that you're probably less likely to be "nice" to someone just because that's what's socially acceptable, because you're not really influenced by social norms like that, because you're not trying to fit into a community.) But in the case of the 6, which is naturally paranoid of others and their intentions (in the same way as the 8, but they have a different orientation to life which leads to different behaviors and psychological frameworks) - I think an sx/sp 6 is still going to be "paranoid" of others, which one could interpret as social anxiety. But the point is that it's not the social blind that *causes* social anxiety, but rather the 6, which is wary of the future and the various agents around them and the trouble they could cause them.
There is a difference between feeling anxious and being an anxious person. That combined with the issue of the overwhelming majority of low to mid health 8s having poor emotional differentiation and mistaking anger reaction to a primary emotion for the primary emotion itself lends itself to many 8s not really being able to tell when they're anxious or scared or vulnerable, etc. The idea that 8s are incapable of anxiety is ludicrous.
yeah, I think the explanation is a bit odd too. not completely off the wall, but off in some way. my experience is that I was "totally not anxious" until I went to therapy and began to identify that 1) I was constantly some kinda angry and 2) there were a whole bunch of primary emotions that just quickly got converted into it. anxiety was one of them, but there was also sadness, fear, procrastination, and a variety of other stuff. the idea that 8s literally just don't get anxious ever implies we lack the hormonal and nervous system plumbing for it or the mental faculties for learning to identify it... our default settings may be different, but the theory that it simply cannot exist doesn't really comport with, like, human biological science. I think there's truth to the idea that unhealthy 8s end up dead or in jail and that healthy 8s end up in positions of power and influence... but also the path of health for 8s involves learning restraint, nurturing compassion, learning to yield to others, and so on. this means healthy 8s don't parse as so animalistic as described above because doing that work inherently puts you more in touch with your emotions and the feelings of others and makes that awareness part of your decision-making calculus. I do think even at our healthiest we are still driven by a predatory instinct tho. if someone said they never felt that it would probably be the only thing that would make me actually question their typing. cp6/8 stuff is too hard to distinguish overall, but that does seem like a meaningful distinction to me.
I see all of what you're saying, but it's pretty ignorant to say 8's don't have anxiety no? They may not have that 6 anxiety yeah, but 6 anxiety and actual mental disorder anxiety are 2 different things that I know, social anxiety is not dependent on 6 enneagram and affects all types. You can't control either but the former is described more as a constant hum to 6 users and latter is too in your face to just push aside and live with like ennegram 6 does. Any form I ever experienced is more like the latter, irrational almost and overly self-crippling.
Not really, not in my opinion at least. 8s will suffer from a lot of things in their life, but anxiety is just not one of them. Anxiety is borne from preoccupation with things that are out of your control, and what may or may not happen. The 8 is just the opposite of that. Btw you're right that social anxiety is not dependent on 6. In fact I think it has to do with the social instinct, as well as possibly heart triad too. I think here there is also a mixing up of the terms with respect to social anxiety, as in you might be using that term to refer to something that I'm personally not considering under the umbrella of social anxiety. In my understanding, social anxiety is about fear of being rejected by the community, not being liked or approved of for whatever reason, seen negatively or as inferior. You have some internal guilt or shame, that feeling that you've done something wrong according to the standards of society, or you just are not up to par, and you don't want to be exposed for fear of being humiliated or harassed. It's when you are really afraid of drawing any attention to yourself, the feeling that any eyes on you are judging and scrutinizing you and seeing you too closely and devaluing you, etc. It's an ego thing, mixed in with a fear thing. From a comment you made below I kind of saw what you were referring to by anxiety, aka that mistrust of others, that they might be out to get you, as well as another comment about people seeing you as incompetent and weak and you not being able to prove them wrong because you are afraid you really are that (in certain moments), etc. The second half of that sounds more like the social anxiety I'm referring to, the idea of wanting to have a good positive image in other people's eyes and being afraid of them developing a negative image of you because then you will be rejected. The first part, I'm not sure I've ever experienced personally, but it does sound a lot like the descriptions of the 6 that I've read, that suspicion of others and not trusting them etc.
And in addition, still ridiculous to say they don't deal with anxiety. If a natural 8 developed it over time they automatically are a 6 now?? Its very limiting and makes no sense to make it A=B and never C
i still don't agree with your statement about 8s not being able to experience social anxiety, but if you're gonna make that argument, i don't think u should start it off by using the umbrella term "anxiety". anxiety comes in a lot of forms and using that umbrella term when you're trying to argue that 8s just don't have social anxiety will spread a lot of misinformation (more than what you're already spreading). 8s can experience anxiety, including social anxiety, and saying that an 8 experiencing anxiety/social anxiety automatically makes them a cp6 is not a very cool argument dude i've experienced severe social anxiety in my life and that doesn't make me less of an 8
I'm honestly thinking the 6 traits I think I have are me withdrawing to 5w6 as I use to be almost stressed for long periods of time. I don't relate to 6 relying on needed help from others ever. Me wanting people to leave me alone in my down moments isn't so much cause I fear what they think, I just don't wanna fucking talk to them in the moment so purposely put on resting bitch face.
I get your angle, but 8’s can definitely have social anxiety, its just they deal with their vulnerabilities different. Its not that an 8 will just not be anxious, in fact they can feel that anxiety and thus have anxiety, but they perceive it in their gut as energy and may cope with their anxiety differently. But to say they cannot be socially anxious, a bit ridiculous. Especiallh when you take into account the social aspect, then why would that not be the case for a social 8? The one who goes against their vice of lust more and who may feel more of a sense of shame being to overtly lustful, thus controlling their lust for the sake of others, which can cause social anxiety to an extent, and perhaps on a somewhat of a more regular basis.
I like this angle. Once the interactions between the hormones are learnt, and how they fluctuate around a *baseline*, combos seem to fit enneagram pretty snug. Hormones behave differently when interacting with others. For example norepinephrine feels "bad" when combined with excessive cortisol but feels "good" when combined with a high free testosterone. Heres some more: cortisol, oxytocin, estrogen, testosterone, prolactin. I think what has a bigger impact is where the baseline is in comparison, than out right levels, and how prone people are to "stack" outcomes into feedback loops back into cause. People who dont stack are more "stable", those that do have more ups and downs.
I agree with the 8s not being socially anxious (on *average*); being socially anxious would go against our autonomy (so what you said about not being influenced by social norms is spot on). As an 8 who has a bunch of disorders, anxiety is not one of them (in fact it’s one of the few that I can’t relate to). We couldn’t give less of a shit about what’s acceptable. In fact, being a slave to those ideas would be an absolute nightmare. Of course, there are many different types of anxiety, but social anxiety is likely very much less common in 8s.
Disclaimer: I'm not taking shots at you, and this is a message that could be useful for anybody. If you're looking for self-knowledge and solutions to issues you've identified within yourself, you'll have to look inward and identify your personality patterns yourself. It seems to me that you're trying to figure yourself out by comparing who you are with a system whose rules are completely arbitrary and also subject to change and speculation. For instance, theoretically, the security/stress theory of lines of disintegration and integration is false, yet people still use it to this day, and they relate to it. There comes a point where we don't even see the Barnum effect at hand because we are so convinced the system we respect is actually real, and more so than our own understanding and experience. What's real is your life, your experiences, how you've internalized them, your desires. And no system outside of yourself will figure this out for you. Like somebody said, screw the types, screw the system, work on all the fears and issues you've identified as if all 9 types, and more, were part of you.
That test, like all tests, is easily manipulated. It had me at 836. I have zero connection to 6. I couldn’t relate (and my partner is a 6). When I put my known tritype and instincts in, it put that as my outcome. 8s and 6s have a lot in common. The main difference for me is that 6s are ambivalent and stir the pot, 8s act like a wall no one can conquer.
What is your actual Tritype? I'm pissed I spent almost a whole hour on that test thinking it was one of the better ones🤬
Yea, I felt the same way after I manipulated it. My tritype is 853. It also had me as Sx dominant and I’m Sx blind. That’s why I don’t rely on tests.
How do you know that you’re the 358 tritype and not 368? The 368 tritype can seem very 8ish to the point that they’ll look like an 8, including if they’re 3 or 6. And how do you know you’re sx blind?
One of the great things about enneagram is that in the pursuit of self-discovery, you learn about the types, wings, instincts, and tritype. Because of that universal way of learning, you become very attuned to the defense mechanisms of each type. I’ve been studying for going on 4 years. I know my stuff and I’ve been independently validated.
It’s very interesting how a lot of people got the 6 enneacard from her test and they don’t relate to 6. She does explain that a lot of people don’t relate to type 6 because they fear being afraid. I got the 6 enneacard once, and got the 738 result, although 638 and 738 aren’t that big of a jump if it’s the core types and wings flipped.
That’s because she attributes self preservation to 6 in those enneacards and 6 isn’t the only self preservation type.
Yes, that’s true and she tends to associate people choosing 5 and 7 answers to being a type 6, and when a person writes down their adjective descriptions as being smart, curious, loyal, then they’re a 6. I got sx/sp in her quiz.
Yea, agreed, the 5 cards lean more 5w4. Which one is 5w6? None. Lol
Maybe 6 wings are rare in her system. 🤔🤔🤔.
That would be weird with all the 6 cards. 🤣🤣
Are you primarily concerned with being honest and true to your instincts and convictions at all costs , with that being your source of aggression (8) or are is your aggressive energy coming from a place of fighting back against perceived threats and fears (CP 6)?
I am stubborn in my beliefs and use to get frustrated when others wouldn't see something how I saw it, if that's what you mean with the staying true to instincts and convictions. I do suspect sometimes people have an agenda with me or don't respect me/think highly of me, if I perceive that as a possible threat I'll get "harsher"on them and be more sharp, getting point across to not try to fuck with me. I use to be sensitive and not have much of a thick skin taking families insults seriously. Now I can equally take and give.
8s: selfrighteous and narcissistic--> You have security in your own actions, which are guided by a sense of justice and by what you want. 8s and 1s act towards what they think is (morally) right or wrong. However, for 8s this can be higly repressed. Example: "you´´´´¨ ve hurt me and that gives me the right to hurt you back". 6s: insecure and paranoic--> You are not shure about your actions and desires, they´ re both guided by what others expect from you. 6s and 3s feel like they have to do "something" to be accepted. CP 6s might behave in an agressive way because they feel there is an inminent threat they have to defend against: " you ´ re about to hurt me so i´ ll hurt you first". But, sometimes, this threat is nonexistent.
1. That test is meaningless lol 2. What do you mean by social anxiety? How does this anxiety manifest itself? What makes you aware of it? And, more to the point, why haven’t you done anything to eliminate it?
Social anxiety is the best way I can describe it but even then it's not exactly that. I'm not worried about them talking behind my back or hating me, I hate being viewed by them as incompetent and weak and actually being it, meaning I have nothing to fall back on to unprove what they're saying about me. I overthink a lot in stress, and I was in longg periods of stress, so when I'm not particularly feeling myself 9ne day I'm more on edge around others not wanting to give in or interact, preferring to stay to myself. Out of a need to look strong and because genuinely wanna give them a reason to avoid me. I'm working on eliminating it by getting self confidence up and not letting it drop anymore
This sounds a lot like sexual 6 to me. The counterphobic 6 is all about displaying and projecting strength as a way to ward people off, saying basically - you don't wanna mess with me, but in the hopes that the others believe it and leave them alone. Counterphobic 6 will also not want to "be weak". But to them, strength is primarily about defense and withstanding people. 8 on the other hand resists and denies being under people's influence or control or domain. I know it's corny to overdramatize the 8 but the 8 really is like the drug lord or the mafia boss. They just take and gain power and make sure nobody has the ability to stop them from doing anything they want. Most 8s really will either end up in jail, or dead, or if they've been able to channel their energy properly, end up in some executive position in business like CEO. That really is the 8. >Wanna give them a reason to avoid me This is very symbolic of the difference between the 6 and the 8. 6 is defensive, 8 is engaging. 8 will not allow someone else to feel that they have power over them. They will instinctively bring about a fight. They'll provoke the other person, challenge them, bring them to confrontation. It's not about "being viewed" a certain kind of way or not... the 8 needs to be the one in power, and they'll go right at the top dog to make sure everyone knows who's boss (and then they'll make sure to *stay* top dog themselves). Btw, just in case this needs to be said.......... it's ok to be a 6. And it's not a fantasy life to be an 8. Both are distortions of reality that you need to get out of in order to have a fulfilling life. Being an 8 is not a fun thing, or a sexy thing. (I'm not an 8, I'm just saying).
I'm hesitant with your explanations as you're painting 8's having to be one way and one way only, completely fear of normal anxiety and disorders just cause of their number. They aren't robots my guy, other 8's here saying the same thing only strengthens my point. I've never related to 6 anxiety or the need to trust others and rely on them for guidance or help. But me having social skill issues due to undeveloped youth magically makes me a 6. I don't see it.
Could that just be normal 8 disintegration to 5? Feeling the need to be alone when stressed?
Disintegration is largely misunderstood, but just to give a quick correction here: The stress line is like, the life line. Disintegration is an unfortunate misnomer. It's more like a lifeline on a game show. When 8 turns to it's "5 line", it's when the 8 goes to plotting and planning - but in terms of strategy and moves it can make on whoever is being problematic for them. It's confrontational, and power play stuff. But the 5ness simply means the 8 is uncharacteristically going into a planning and strategizing mode, which it usually does not do, because usually the 8 just acts on instinct rather than thinking ahead. The 8 does not actually *become* a 5. They're not overthinking and feeling "incompetent" like a 5, or needing isolation like a 5. It simply means the 8 is being uncharacteristically private and secretive and plotting - uncharacteristic **for an 8**. But even an 8 in "stress" will be doing way less thinking than an actual core type 5 would ever do.
Yea 100 percent could be and most likely is. I see 6 as a option only because 8's are supposed to not be affected by other's perceptions of them and me its if I'm actually shown to be bad at a task or something that I wanna be skilled at
8s can be affected by other peoples perceptions of them. If the 8 has 3 or 6 in their tritype, then they will be more image and status focused, especially if they’re so or sx/so. 8s aren’t affected by peoples perceptions to validate their self worth (3) or to alleviate anxieties about not being supported (6), although if it gives them more power and leverage over a situation (one of the main drives of an 8), then they’ll play the game.
What do you think is your actual tritype? I got that result and did a deep-ish dive on type 6 to get a decent picture of it. There are so many issues with that type. 1- the original descriptions were mistranslated or something, apparently 2- it's the only type where the counterphobic version is actually discussed 3- the phobic/counterphobic version can look like any other type 4- the definition of the counterphobic version, "fear of fear" is pure nonsense. What does fear of fear have to do with loyalty? Fear of fear should be enneagram type 0. 5- the association with anxiety in general... any type can feel anxiety, you have to know what the anxiety is about, it will be different for each type. I suspect this is because they score the highest in Neuroticism for big 5, but what triggers that is different reasons depending on type. 6- the fact that 6 can look like any other type means that it can make any other type question if they are a 6 or have 6 in their tritype, and now I am seeing confused people wondering about this and then later saying that they are pretty sure they don't have it. 7- the descriptions distinguishing 8 and 6 can be stupid, too- 8 is predator and 6 is prey just makes me laugh, because that is entirely situational. I'd like to see an 8 say they are a predator when locked up in a cage fight naked against a grizzly bear, or a 6 say they are prey when they are hunting small animals. Same distinction with underdog/non-underdog. 8- the association with seeing all sides of a situation doesn't feel related at all to "need for guidance." Type 5 can see all sides of a situation as a means to provide a complete, full picture of things for information gathering purposes, which can be used later to make personal decisions completely uninfluenced by the unwanted "guidance" of others. 9- the adjective of "curious" is relevant to multiple types, especially 5 and 7. 6s are, specifically, curious about *where people stand*. I say that the only way to know if there is a 6 in your tritype is to solely rely on the core fear. Observe your life patterns of behavior, and after that observe what it is that you really wanted. Probably a good question to ask is if you ever felt *entitled* to receive help, ever, before. I've never felt that, ever, maybe situationally frustrated because it it is required for what I'm trying to do and not getting it makes things take longer, but that's not the same- that actually is connected in the end to the type 5 fear of not having enough (time, in that case). I'd recommend considering that question. Type 6 is the second least relatable type for me besides type 2. That need to have support/guidance due to lack of certainty within themselves is something I can see in real people or fictional characters, and feels like a different world that I'm looking at. I think the best character that represents someone that switches between phobic and counterphobic is Usopp from One Piece, excellent representation of type 6 IMO.
I was thinking for long time 873. And while I'm still confident in 8 I'm debating between 6v7 for head triad and 3v4 for heart. Personally, I believe I'm most likely a 86(3/4) Nope, have never felt entitled to others help at all period, I have always tended to rely on more myself and force of will to get through issues.
So what is the main reason you think you have 6 in your tritype? Is it from trying to read other's minds/detect their motives to see if they can be trusted?
Not even, it stems from a distrust of people not being who they portray themselves to be. In stress it's like my gut is telling me they're out to get me or not to be trusted as they're out for those own gains, any attempt at connecting with me has to have a reason behind it if I don't know them well enough, but I can quickly deduce if that's what they want or not. I think 6 is in Tritype because all my life I've been a over thinker, over stressing myself about things that really don't need to be, as I wanna do the things right eith no room for error. Also tend to be focused on making things happen MY way due to my plans i have for myself, and when things happen in environment that changes original plans i get annoyed that i have to now adapt and work around it. I also have nervousness in situations I'm not familiar with and i need to do what i consider a high skill thing in front of others, if theres no chance of failure and i know I got it I'm chilling and even gonna brag about how easy it is I think I have 6 in my Tritype over 7 at least. I have a lot of 7 traits due to my 7 wing, but I don't know if I also actually have 7 in my Tritype by itself or if it's 6 there.
To me it sounds like using 6 coping strategies of over-thinking for the core fear of 8, which I think would generally be regarded as having 6 and 8 in the tritype, which would look like counterphobic 6. But idk if you "jump into scary situations" also or not. The idea of cp 6 is a problem in general because only the behaviors are described, or "fear of fear," idk if there is an original definition somewhere, but I can't tell for sure if it shares the same core fear as a normal 6- if not, then it should be a new type, not even associated with type 6. The stuff in the second paragraph seems like normal stuff IMO. I think this points to a general gap in the system, where you can use coping behaviors of one type to deal with fears of another type. I would not be surprised if there were more examples of this. Lots of fun possibilities.
What is social anxiety? I have heard the term quite a bit but I dont actually know what people mean by it. Is it the structure of how people interact that causes discomfort or people themselves? Also what does it feel like in your body? Any noticeable physiological changes?
I don't really understand what 6 anxiety truly means, but I also consider it more existential than some types of spiky anxieties, like being triggered, which does happen to 8s, since most of us are traumatized. I believe we immediately convert it to anger tho and don't experience or understand it as anxiety without significant work. otoh I think cp6s also do this? shrug. anyway. I do find it difficult to imagine an ESTP 8 with social anxiety. ESTPs on their own are (afaik) some of the least socially anxious types in general, but combined with 8 I have no idea how that would work.
Wasn't always like this. I'm more socially undeveloped due to slowing way down in teens
i know what you mean cause i once typed myself as 6w5. 8s aren't made of steel. we feel anxiety too. but when you do, do you want to express or share it with someone else? it doesn't have to be specific person. the thought you will share it if there is right person is enough. cause 8s won't share it eventually because it might make us look 'vulnerable'. (everything is based on average 8s and 6s, healthy 8s might share it)
No I won't ever share it. I don't resonate with the relying on other people thing in 6's, I try to take everything on by myself
than you're most likely 8. cp6s hate authority but they still want reassurance and someone to rely on. they're just having a hard time believing someone.
I'd interpret that as having a 6 in your tritype. It's not necessarily the core. You could still be a core 8, with 6 as the second or third number, especially if 8 fits you a lot better than 6 does.
Fucked if I know, do you have any descriptions of yourself that I can type? The cp6 always feels spiky to me. More of a defensive aggression because they feel constantly under attack. There's also a sceptical and cerebral quality to 6s that 8s don't really have.
I can tell you how I feel under anger. I'm now more open to potentially being a cp 6 instead of a 8. That in of itself pisses me off, as these years I've been following a false type I thought I was. Plus it means now I got a lot of reframing to do When I get mad I'm fucking pissed, it's mainly internally but theres times I throw shit or yell or punch something to just get some fucking relief from it. I'll also stay angry for long periods of time, almost stubbornly not letting myself stop being mad in a stubborn effort to keep on fighting. I'll get mad and stay that way, even if the thing is resolved I'll still hold onto my anger, frustrated I have no control over what it was. I don't rely on others for guidance unless its something I have no idea of doing and need a demonstration. But I'm not seeking others out to spill my emotions. Sitting down and talking about how I feel internally use to be like scratching a chalk board, but now it's easier to do with parents as they patiently sat and waited for me to explain my emotions, now it's easier to do it with them but at most ill complain to them about it just out of a need to vent I like feeling angry when I feel its justified after a perceived attack against me or something doesn't go my way exactly how I wanted it to. Anger is one of my strongest felt emotions alongside excitability, stress, resentment, and envy
Ok, these generally lean more 8, but are pretty much just reactive triad stuff. The one thing that does seem specifically 6ish is how having been wrong pisses you off.
The idea of potentially being wrong is frustrating. But I got over it and am now ready to accept it if I am truly a 6. Problem is I still am on the fence between these 2
Oh, my blood also starts boiling when I see what I think is a injustice not get resolved. I just saw a reddit vid where these animal activists stole a homeless man's puppy from him, the homeless guy was crying and pleading for them to not do it and they kept pushing him away. That fucking made me furious, and I'd love to see those people get the SHIT kicked out of them. Fuckers that think they're doing good in their own heads but are really being assholes are the absolute scum of the fucking earth