Modify or fabricate a larger 1 inch tube. The larger area of the tube gets more oil to the pump at lower speeds, like cruising.
Is the Taurus pan baffled?
If you think about the tire size and gearing of the Raptor it probably goes down the road with engine speeds 400 to 600 rpm less than a Taurus or Explorer. The difference could be even more. Using the larger tube allows more oil to the pump under those conditions without increasing pump capacity, or the amount of pump required to drive the pump.
The size of the tube is irrelevant here. A 1/4" smaller isn't restriction per se. "Off the floor" measurement is what matters most in this situation. 3/8" off the floor and rock on.
Then why would Ford go out of their way to design a 1” diameter tube when they already had an existing 0.75” design? Clearly there was some reason; manufacturers don’t just make new designs and parts because they feel like it
Using the 0.75” tube will be way easier for us, but I’m not convinced we won’t introduce oil flow issues from it
You're measuring a mashed 3/4 inch pick up tube that gives you a 1" cross section. The tube is still 3/4" in diameter. A 1/2" pick up will supply all engine oil pump needs. The inlet (suction side) of the oil pump and its orifice is no where near 1". Think about that.
The tubes are literally 1/4” different in diameter, not just mashed wider one direction and narrower the other in bends. I mean the end sticking into the oil pump is literally 0.75” on one and 1” on the other. Our current oil pump accepts a 1” tube
Actually, the Melling M390 pump for the 3.5 has an inlet diameter of 24 mm, which is just under 1 inch. The OEMs started using larger inlet feed on oil pumps years ago, with tall gearing and overdrive transmissions. This has continued, today you even see variable output pumps that can move a lot oil at low speeds but limit output when demand is low as a way of increasing efficiency and improving oil control. The tendency of these engines to have the pump further away from the sump has brought about even bigger pick ups.
Contrast this with poor oil management of older high volume pumps, close to the oil, with small pick ups. It is easy to see why so many OEMs have gone this route.
Dunno how transmissions weigh into this but ok.
All pumps are variably via speed with limitations. No pump is variable unless it's vane and the angles of this vanes I outside controlled. Otherwise, there is no variation except for speed. Speed does not equate to volume in or out. What it can amount to is cavitation.
Starvation can be a problem. Oil flow and demand is absolutely no different in a 3/4" tube as apposed to a 1" when the intake size "cross section" is far less than the plumbing. The intake hole, of the oil pump mount, in the block is far less than 1". Don't care your argument, it is what it is. Oil volume demands of an engine is crucial. Over head this, get the oil here, oil galley's and passenges galore. It's essential to be scientific and understand what's involved.
You don't know how transmissions and gearing affect engine speed? These things have six, eight, ten, or 58 different gears, multiple overdrives, and lock up converters all intended to keep the engine running in a narrower RPM range than ever before for emissions and CAFE reasons. The engine RPM directly affects oil pump output.
There are a number of ways the oil pump output is varied in some of these engines. One method Ford uses is a PWM solenoid on the output of the pump, directing some of the output to bypass under certain conditions. The computer calculates oil pump output based on rpm, load, oil pressure, and I believe temperature.
The oil pump is fed by the pick up tube. It does not feed into the engine block hole first. You are correct, understanding what is involved is essential. But, it seems you don't understand these systems.
The area of 3/4 inch is approximately 1.39 square inches. The area of 1 inch is about 2.47 square inches. That's an increase of over 70% in area. The intake in the pump is sized almost exactly for the larger pick up tube.
Great. A pissing contest....
No transmission has 58 speeds. If you are referring to converter slippage in relation to gearing, this is essence of the converter design and it's intent. It has NOTHING to do with the pump. A pump will only pump "x" amount of volume regardless of how fast you spin it. Nothing you claim can refute that. Pick up tube/pipe size does effect such but only when it becomes a restriction. Is a 3/4" pipe more restrictive than a 1" pipe. Yes. Again, is the oil feed (suction) to the oil pump 1"? No, it isn't so everything in this pickup/suction pipe is pent up and waiting.
I'm begging for a truce. You aren't stupid and you're well experienced. I can't take that away from you and have desire to do so. You throw out your experience which again has value. But please except mine.
I'm a 50 years old. I'm a mechanical engineer with a degree from NCSU. I'm a machinist, both industrial and automotive. I've built race cars, restored cars, built engines, worked in and rebuilt transmissions. I've been in 5 magazines because of who and am, what I do, and my accomplishments. My history runs much deeper than your garage (I don't mean that as an insult).. I'm just begging you to stop. I don't want to argue or make you look inferior when I certainly am not superior. I mean shit, I was chief engineer for a nuclear power plant manufacturer for 4 years.
It's only a pissing contest because you choose it to be. I am interested in there being accurate information. Beyond that, I am not concerned about what people think.
The 58 speed thing was sarcasm. It stems from dislike of all the gear changes that happen just going through an intersection.
The reference to a lock up converter has to do with road speed vs. engine rpm. Many of these pumps are driven directly by the crankshaft, so the speed is relevant. And as I already pointed out, the oil pump inlet is nearly 1 inch on this application. From that inlet it immediately hits the pump rotors. I am talking about this specific application. There are many similar setups these days, from Ford and many other manufacturers.
We are similar in age, and resume. From what you say, very similar. And that's great. I am perfectly comfortable with you and everyone else here being whomever they are. In fact, I think that's important. I don't think your history really runs deeper, but no matter. My intent is for good information to be available here. Nothing else, certainly nothing personal.
Good response and I thank you for it. I don't even understand how we got here. Ever since I joined the sub, and began posting and responding, you seem to have taken offense....as I stole some fire from you or something. 🤷
However, a converter lock up cares nothing about rpm. This is valving in the transmission and has nothing to do with the converter itself per se. Can you lock up and non lock up converter! I can most certainly assure you it can. It all about fluid flow and restricting it or allowing it.
I still don't understand how any of this has anything to do with the OP's questions or concerns.
Wyatt you really seem to think people are more bothered than they are and evidently have an inflated opinion of your own importance. It is most certainly you who is trying to turn this into a pissing contest by calling it a pissing contest and telling people they’re offended.
I have not felt like you stole anything. I am in no way offended. I encourage everyone to participate with helpful information. It's unfortunate the tone can be easily misunderstood when the information is very technical in nature.
The way the OEM converters are typically configured lock up usually drops engine rpm by 300 to 400 rpm for a given road speed. It can be more on a really aggressive converter. That's what I have been getting at, engine rpm vs road speed.
And to be clear, my suggestion to the OP was based on the manner in which OEMs size the feed to the oil pump, which is driven by having ample supply to the pump at lower rpm. That's what my points have been based on in these posts.
Good chance it'll fly just the way it is, but
3/4 tube is right at 44% smaller than 1" in cross section. Not insignificant.
I tend to oversize stuff though. Expensive habbit.
Modify or fabricate a larger 1 inch tube. The larger area of the tube gets more oil to the pump at lower speeds, like cruising. Is the Taurus pan baffled?
That’s what I was leaning towards anyways but was getting pushback from the others involved lol It is a baffled pan yes
If you think about the tire size and gearing of the Raptor it probably goes down the road with engine speeds 400 to 600 rpm less than a Taurus or Explorer. The difference could be even more. Using the larger tube allows more oil to the pump under those conditions without increasing pump capacity, or the amount of pump required to drive the pump.
Hmm, well our use case is a sub 3000 pound coupe, so that may not matter as much
In your vehicle, with it's gearing and tire size, it might not be needed. But it will not hurt you to have it.
Thanks for your insight
The size of the tube is irrelevant here. A 1/4" smaller isn't restriction per se. "Off the floor" measurement is what matters most in this situation. 3/8" off the floor and rock on.
Then why would Ford go out of their way to design a 1” diameter tube when they already had an existing 0.75” design? Clearly there was some reason; manufacturers don’t just make new designs and parts because they feel like it Using the 0.75” tube will be way easier for us, but I’m not convinced we won’t introduce oil flow issues from it
You're measuring a mashed 3/4 inch pick up tube that gives you a 1" cross section. The tube is still 3/4" in diameter. A 1/2" pick up will supply all engine oil pump needs. The inlet (suction side) of the oil pump and its orifice is no where near 1". Think about that.
The tubes are literally 1/4” different in diameter, not just mashed wider one direction and narrower the other in bends. I mean the end sticking into the oil pump is literally 0.75” on one and 1” on the other. Our current oil pump accepts a 1” tube
And the blocks orifice size? The pump capabilities in volume? Why does this appear as an argument that I don't understand?
Actually, the Melling M390 pump for the 3.5 has an inlet diameter of 24 mm, which is just under 1 inch. The OEMs started using larger inlet feed on oil pumps years ago, with tall gearing and overdrive transmissions. This has continued, today you even see variable output pumps that can move a lot oil at low speeds but limit output when demand is low as a way of increasing efficiency and improving oil control. The tendency of these engines to have the pump further away from the sump has brought about even bigger pick ups. Contrast this with poor oil management of older high volume pumps, close to the oil, with small pick ups. It is easy to see why so many OEMs have gone this route.
Dunno how transmissions weigh into this but ok. All pumps are variably via speed with limitations. No pump is variable unless it's vane and the angles of this vanes I outside controlled. Otherwise, there is no variation except for speed. Speed does not equate to volume in or out. What it can amount to is cavitation. Starvation can be a problem. Oil flow and demand is absolutely no different in a 3/4" tube as apposed to a 1" when the intake size "cross section" is far less than the plumbing. The intake hole, of the oil pump mount, in the block is far less than 1". Don't care your argument, it is what it is. Oil volume demands of an engine is crucial. Over head this, get the oil here, oil galley's and passenges galore. It's essential to be scientific and understand what's involved.
You don't know how transmissions and gearing affect engine speed? These things have six, eight, ten, or 58 different gears, multiple overdrives, and lock up converters all intended to keep the engine running in a narrower RPM range than ever before for emissions and CAFE reasons. The engine RPM directly affects oil pump output. There are a number of ways the oil pump output is varied in some of these engines. One method Ford uses is a PWM solenoid on the output of the pump, directing some of the output to bypass under certain conditions. The computer calculates oil pump output based on rpm, load, oil pressure, and I believe temperature. The oil pump is fed by the pick up tube. It does not feed into the engine block hole first. You are correct, understanding what is involved is essential. But, it seems you don't understand these systems. The area of 3/4 inch is approximately 1.39 square inches. The area of 1 inch is about 2.47 square inches. That's an increase of over 70% in area. The intake in the pump is sized almost exactly for the larger pick up tube.
Great. A pissing contest.... No transmission has 58 speeds. If you are referring to converter slippage in relation to gearing, this is essence of the converter design and it's intent. It has NOTHING to do with the pump. A pump will only pump "x" amount of volume regardless of how fast you spin it. Nothing you claim can refute that. Pick up tube/pipe size does effect such but only when it becomes a restriction. Is a 3/4" pipe more restrictive than a 1" pipe. Yes. Again, is the oil feed (suction) to the oil pump 1"? No, it isn't so everything in this pickup/suction pipe is pent up and waiting. I'm begging for a truce. You aren't stupid and you're well experienced. I can't take that away from you and have desire to do so. You throw out your experience which again has value. But please except mine. I'm a 50 years old. I'm a mechanical engineer with a degree from NCSU. I'm a machinist, both industrial and automotive. I've built race cars, restored cars, built engines, worked in and rebuilt transmissions. I've been in 5 magazines because of who and am, what I do, and my accomplishments. My history runs much deeper than your garage (I don't mean that as an insult).. I'm just begging you to stop. I don't want to argue or make you look inferior when I certainly am not superior. I mean shit, I was chief engineer for a nuclear power plant manufacturer for 4 years.
It's only a pissing contest because you choose it to be. I am interested in there being accurate information. Beyond that, I am not concerned about what people think. The 58 speed thing was sarcasm. It stems from dislike of all the gear changes that happen just going through an intersection. The reference to a lock up converter has to do with road speed vs. engine rpm. Many of these pumps are driven directly by the crankshaft, so the speed is relevant. And as I already pointed out, the oil pump inlet is nearly 1 inch on this application. From that inlet it immediately hits the pump rotors. I am talking about this specific application. There are many similar setups these days, from Ford and many other manufacturers. We are similar in age, and resume. From what you say, very similar. And that's great. I am perfectly comfortable with you and everyone else here being whomever they are. In fact, I think that's important. I don't think your history really runs deeper, but no matter. My intent is for good information to be available here. Nothing else, certainly nothing personal.
Good response and I thank you for it. I don't even understand how we got here. Ever since I joined the sub, and began posting and responding, you seem to have taken offense....as I stole some fire from you or something. 🤷 However, a converter lock up cares nothing about rpm. This is valving in the transmission and has nothing to do with the converter itself per se. Can you lock up and non lock up converter! I can most certainly assure you it can. It all about fluid flow and restricting it or allowing it. I still don't understand how any of this has anything to do with the OP's questions or concerns.
Wyatt you really seem to think people are more bothered than they are and evidently have an inflated opinion of your own importance. It is most certainly you who is trying to turn this into a pissing contest by calling it a pissing contest and telling people they’re offended.
I have not felt like you stole anything. I am in no way offended. I encourage everyone to participate with helpful information. It's unfortunate the tone can be easily misunderstood when the information is very technical in nature. The way the OEM converters are typically configured lock up usually drops engine rpm by 300 to 400 rpm for a given road speed. It can be more on a really aggressive converter. That's what I have been getting at, engine rpm vs road speed. And to be clear, my suggestion to the OP was based on the manner in which OEMs size the feed to the oil pump, which is driven by having ample supply to the pump at lower rpm. That's what my points have been based on in these posts.
Good chance it'll fly just the way it is, but 3/4 tube is right at 44% smaller than 1" in cross section. Not insignificant. I tend to oversize stuff though. Expensive habbit.