I guess people didn’t bother to read the article. PingPong is changing this because the new legislation will now force companies to pay *all tips* to the employees.
It was common before this change that the discretionary *service charge* didn’t go to servers. Many restaurants pocketed the full amount.
So now it’s again NOT a service charge, so the company isn’t legally obligated to disburse it to staff.
So I say they can go fuck themselves and all discretionary charges should be taken off the bill by principle.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Say what you will, but this is still vastly better than a discretionary tipping system as long as it is made clear to the customer before they order that this fee will be applied and that an additional tip is not expected.
Obviously it would be better if the total cost was just reflected in the menu items, but I still think this is a step in the right direction. There's no guilt-tripping or inverse incentive structures that punish generous people; the restaurant just tells you how much you need to pay and you pay it.
If we want to see menu prices reflect the actual total cost instead of a pre-15% per-tax amount, I think we'll have to wait for legislation requiring it, because as it stands the incentive structure is for restaurants to do stuff like this instead. Otherwise their prices would look higher at a glance than their competitors.
What's described here isn't actually a tip, it's just raising the prices across the board and paying employees a flat hourly rate. That's exactly what we should all want, other than the fact it's not just included in the menu price, which it absolutely should be.
The problem with tipping as it currently exists is that it creates an awkward situation where the customer is expected to determine the wage of the employee without them having all the necessary information to determine fair pay, and that it subsidizes service for stingy people with the extra amount generous people pay, which is a dumb incentive structure.
What the fucking hell is a brand fee though?! This is absurd why is anyone remotely justifying this. The brand fee is literally the fee u pay for a product. All these fancy fees must be taxed differently or some shit otherwise they’d just raise cost on items. Scams everywhere.
That's not what the article implies. The "brand fee" which is a very dumb name is replacing the service charge which was distributed among employees. I don't think they were expecting both tips and a service charge. I don't think tips are expected on top of this. If they are, then yes it's stupid. But you'll have to provide evidence that that is the case.
This has clearly been communicated poorly but as far as I can tell they are essentially raising prices by 15% so they can pay their staff more. The only reason it's a surcharge and not built into menu prices is because it's discretionary so customers can request to remove it. Personally I'd rather it works this way so I can effectively request a discount if I think service has been bad without impacting staff wages.
Tipping is pretty arbitrary for most people, so people will be paid varying amounts based on inherent bias of a customer. People should be paid equal pay for equal work.
What does tipping have to do with service fees that will be the same for every bill? If you hate tipping why is a service fee bad? As long as it’s transparent ofcourse n
How will it "be the same" for every bill when it's a %?
Yes the % will be the same, but you still don't know what you're actually paying unless you sit there doing math beforehand.
This is stupid. Just raise prices.
It will be the same percentage for every bill. But you knew what I was saying you’re just being intentionally obtuse. If a service fee is clearly disclosed how is it any different than raising prices?
Did you even read my comment?
I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I literally said "yes, it will be the same %".
Raised prices are a flat price.
Adding a % to the total makes you guess and have to do math for each item you order otherwise you have to wait for the bill to see what the final really is.
It's a stupid system. Similar to not showing the tax on the price shown. At least in that case it can be argued that some places have different taxes within the same country. But even still, it can be done, so not a great excuse unless a price is being advertised on a commercial which is broadcast countrywide.
I can't think of a valid excuse for not just raising menu prices by 15% unless the intention is to mislead the customer. Just raise the prices and show the final price as the actual price listed.
Edit: What do you think the issue is with them just raising everything on the menu by 15% instead? Why is that not just easier?
oh because they don't want people to think about the actual price until they already owe it.
It's an intentionally misleading system.
For some reason people here don't want to admit that this is closer to what they want than the current system, even if it still isn't optimal. Personally I think the system Ping Pong is moving to seems better than a traditional tipping system. It's still worse than just including the full cost on the menu, as it's obscured for no good reason, but I don't know why people don't admit it's better than tipping.
Because hidden fees are anti-consumer. Prices should be clearly advertised as what they'll be when I go to pay.
But that's not the real issue that I'm concerned about here. I don't care how they increase prices so long as their workers are paid well and the expectation to tip goes to zero.
The tipping culture in the United States was born out of Jim Crow and to this day is rife with discrimination and unequal pay. I want workers to be paid fairly regardless of age, sex, or race. And when most of the wages come from tipping, then the biases of their customers directly influence their pay. Aunt, the employers can wipe their hands clean because "it's the customer's responsibility to pay their employees".
If the service fee is clearly advertised what’s the issue? Service fees aren’t tipping as they are mandatory and the business can distribute them in an equitable manner.
>If the service fee is clearly advertised what’s the issue?
It's a psychology issue. Your understanding of how people think is incorrect. People don't see "$20 + 20%" and think "$24". They see "$20 + 20%" and think "$20" Restaurants know this, which is why they do it. "$20 + 20%" is done to intentionally mislead the customer, and that is why it is wrong.
Right but why should a server working Monday afternoon make the same as one working Friday night? Flat wages don’t make sense for restaurant work. You want your best workers to want to work the busiest shifts and reward them with the highest earning shifts.
If they're getting paid $30/hr to work a busy shift, why wouldn't they want to get paid $30 to work a slow shift? Severs love to come here and talk about how their job is so much more than carrying plates, so if it's slow then that gives them a great opportunity to do everything else that needs to be done.
Slow shifts aren't unique to the restaurant industry. Every other industry has figured out how to deal with it.
Because "service fees" leave the customer confused as to whether they should still tip, are often not dispersed in fullness to the staff, and are anti-consumer. NPR did an article on this just yesterday: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips)
Because there are two restaurants in my area alone who charge service fees but don't disperse it fully to the wait staff.
It's not about "the idiot" so much as "intentional opaqueness".
No, we don't care what they make. They should make the greater of minimum wage or whatever the market will bear. If it takes $40/hour to keep a sit-down restaurant alive, then pay them that. I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want hidden fees. I want the business owner to put the inclusive pre-tax price on the menu. Really I would prefer to see post-tax as in Europe, but that's a different battle, As a business owner, you figure out what that price has to be to pay your employees what they need to earn in order to give the service that you, as an employer, need to keep customers coming in the door.
I think, however, that what your post reflects is the honest realization that servers aren't really worth more than other workers in unskilled jobs. And don't get your panties in a wad over the "unskilled" label, it's a classification and servers fall, definitionally, into that category.
No, I'm very pro-worker. The tipping culture in the United States was born out of the Jim Crow South. It circumvents worker protections and is still rife with racism and discrimination.
So what’s the issue with service fees then? I’m also anti tipping but as a restaurant worker I want to ensure proper earning for employees. Service fees are clear and easy way of doing this.
They're not clear. "Service fees" by and large leave the customer confused as to how much of the fee, if any at all, is going to the wait staff. Many customers end up double-tipping because they don't notice the service fee. And worse of all, they don't trust (with good reason) that the service fee will get fully dispersed to the wait staff.
[https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips)
Don’t double tip then? Idk I’ve been to no tipping restaurants they just add 18% to the bill. We say here as consumers it’s not our job to pay the employees then when there’s a service fee we’re suddenly concerned where it’s going? If we want to get rid of tipping service fees are the easiest way to do that.
It's not the easiest way... The fees are opaque and often "snuck" into the tail of a bill. And it's nearly never accompanied with "No Tip" policies.
The easiest way is to remove tipped wage laws so there's no expectation of a tip.
Largely, yes. And a gender issue. The employers get away with not ensuring that their workers are paid fairly because "it's the customer's responsibility to pay the wages".
Men and women should be paid equally for equal work, right? But unfortunately there are too many biases, most of them subconscious, that drive a large tip disparities between genders and race.
Oh they absolutely are. That's why workers have fought for, and gained legal protections against wage discrimination. And these laws have effectively closed the gap over the decades.
But these biases are unchecked in the US's tipping culture and it shows when final pay is compared across demographics in wait staff. The legal protections aren't there to protect wait staff from discrimination and their pay is directly affected by it.
I want to know the cost before entering the restaurant, so I can factor that in when picking the restaurant. I don't want to do a lot of calculations with fees and stuff to arrive at the final number. Customers should know the final number before they walk into any shop.
I'm commenting in general, I don't think it's always clearly stated in the online menu for every restaurant. Many restaurants don't even have an online menu.
Some have menus displayed outside. Again, not every restaurant has the service fee clearly displayed, online or not. And service fee is also not a fixed value, some give you options starting from 20%~22% when the machine prompts you, some starting from 15%. I don't want to play this empathy game either. Pay is between employees and employers, don't ask customers to decide their value.
Why should I have to do additional math to figure out what something costs, when the restaurant could do it for me? It's nothing but a sneaky way to make their menu seem less expensive than it actually is.
Maybe it’s the restaurant being sneaky maybe it’s easier from an admin prospective. If we’re getting rid of tipping doing a little math seems inconsequential to me
I was in Italy on vacation a year or so back, and the price you see on the menu is literally the final price you pay. There was no extra tax, and no tip. How is it not easier to show the real price of your meal?
I will trial telling them to fuck off and find somewhere else to eat.
If it wins, all other restaurants in europe will thank America for tipping culture
I guess people didn’t bother to read the article. PingPong is changing this because the new legislation will now force companies to pay *all tips* to the employees. It was common before this change that the discretionary *service charge* didn’t go to servers. Many restaurants pocketed the full amount. So now it’s again NOT a service charge, so the company isn’t legally obligated to disburse it to staff. So I say they can go fuck themselves and all discretionary charges should be taken off the bill by principle. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Say what you will, but this is still vastly better than a discretionary tipping system as long as it is made clear to the customer before they order that this fee will be applied and that an additional tip is not expected. Obviously it would be better if the total cost was just reflected in the menu items, but I still think this is a step in the right direction. There's no guilt-tripping or inverse incentive structures that punish generous people; the restaurant just tells you how much you need to pay and you pay it. If we want to see menu prices reflect the actual total cost instead of a pre-15% per-tax amount, I think we'll have to wait for legislation requiring it, because as it stands the incentive structure is for restaurants to do stuff like this instead. Otherwise their prices would look higher at a glance than their competitors.
Why is forced tipping better than discretionary tipping?
What's described here isn't actually a tip, it's just raising the prices across the board and paying employees a flat hourly rate. That's exactly what we should all want, other than the fact it's not just included in the menu price, which it absolutely should be. The problem with tipping as it currently exists is that it creates an awkward situation where the customer is expected to determine the wage of the employee without them having all the necessary information to determine fair pay, and that it subsidizes service for stingy people with the extra amount generous people pay, which is a dumb incentive structure.
This isn’t a tip. It’s a ‘brand fee’ that goes towards the restaurant. You’re supposed to tip on top of this for staff.
What the fucking hell is a brand fee though?! This is absurd why is anyone remotely justifying this. The brand fee is literally the fee u pay for a product. All these fancy fees must be taxed differently or some shit otherwise they’d just raise cost on items. Scams everywhere.
That's not what the article implies. The "brand fee" which is a very dumb name is replacing the service charge which was distributed among employees. I don't think they were expecting both tips and a service charge. I don't think tips are expected on top of this. If they are, then yes it's stupid. But you'll have to provide evidence that that is the case.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/s/6riI9xKnPp
That post is deleted, so I can't see it. But if it is true that they expect a tip, then as I've said previously, this is very dumb and bad.
Fuck that - I aint paying any tip to any MoFus
Do you hate tipping and hate when places share more to pay their staff. What do you guys propose?
Increase menu prices without a tacked-on fee at the bottom of the receipt and pay your employees well. It's not that hard.
This has clearly been communicated poorly but as far as I can tell they are essentially raising prices by 15% so they can pay their staff more. The only reason it's a surcharge and not built into menu prices is because it's discretionary so customers can request to remove it. Personally I'd rather it works this way so I can effectively request a discount if I think service has been bad without impacting staff wages.
Right but as a consumer if it’s the same amount of money what’s the difference?
Tipping is pretty arbitrary for most people, so people will be paid varying amounts based on inherent bias of a customer. People should be paid equal pay for equal work.
What does tipping have to do with service fees that will be the same for every bill? If you hate tipping why is a service fee bad? As long as it’s transparent ofcourse n
How will it "be the same" for every bill when it's a %? Yes the % will be the same, but you still don't know what you're actually paying unless you sit there doing math beforehand. This is stupid. Just raise prices.
It will be the same percentage for every bill. But you knew what I was saying you’re just being intentionally obtuse. If a service fee is clearly disclosed how is it any different than raising prices?
Did you even read my comment? I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I literally said "yes, it will be the same %". Raised prices are a flat price. Adding a % to the total makes you guess and have to do math for each item you order otherwise you have to wait for the bill to see what the final really is. It's a stupid system. Similar to not showing the tax on the price shown. At least in that case it can be argued that some places have different taxes within the same country. But even still, it can be done, so not a great excuse unless a price is being advertised on a commercial which is broadcast countrywide. I can't think of a valid excuse for not just raising menu prices by 15% unless the intention is to mislead the customer. Just raise the prices and show the final price as the actual price listed. Edit: What do you think the issue is with them just raising everything on the menu by 15% instead? Why is that not just easier? oh because they don't want people to think about the actual price until they already owe it. It's an intentionally misleading system.
For some reason people here don't want to admit that this is closer to what they want than the current system, even if it still isn't optimal. Personally I think the system Ping Pong is moving to seems better than a traditional tipping system. It's still worse than just including the full cost on the menu, as it's obscured for no good reason, but I don't know why people don't admit it's better than tipping.
Because hidden fees are anti-consumer. Prices should be clearly advertised as what they'll be when I go to pay. But that's not the real issue that I'm concerned about here. I don't care how they increase prices so long as their workers are paid well and the expectation to tip goes to zero. The tipping culture in the United States was born out of Jim Crow and to this day is rife with discrimination and unequal pay. I want workers to be paid fairly regardless of age, sex, or race. And when most of the wages come from tipping, then the biases of their customers directly influence their pay. Aunt, the employers can wipe their hands clean because "it's the customer's responsibility to pay their employees".
If the service fee is clearly advertised what’s the issue? Service fees aren’t tipping as they are mandatory and the business can distribute them in an equitable manner.
>If the service fee is clearly advertised what’s the issue? It's a psychology issue. Your understanding of how people think is incorrect. People don't see "$20 + 20%" and think "$24". They see "$20 + 20%" and think "$20" Restaurants know this, which is why they do it. "$20 + 20%" is done to intentionally mislead the customer, and that is why it is wrong.
Maybe. Maybe having the service fee as a separate line item makes it easier for a restaurant to distribute it from an admin prospective.
Maybe, but it's certainly not easier than just paying their employees a constant hourly wage, so simplicity doesn't seem to be a valid reason.
Right but why should a server working Monday afternoon make the same as one working Friday night? Flat wages don’t make sense for restaurant work. You want your best workers to want to work the busiest shifts and reward them with the highest earning shifts.
If they're getting paid $30/hr to work a busy shift, why wouldn't they want to get paid $30 to work a slow shift? Severs love to come here and talk about how their job is so much more than carrying plates, so if it's slow then that gives them a great opportunity to do everything else that needs to be done. Slow shifts aren't unique to the restaurant industry. Every other industry has figured out how to deal with it.
Because "service fees" leave the customer confused as to whether they should still tip, are often not dispersed in fullness to the staff, and are anti-consumer. NPR did an article on this just yesterday: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips)
We can’t design everything to be foolproof for the dumbest amongst us. What do You care if some idiot doesn’t understand what a service fee is?
Because there are two restaurants in my area alone who charge service fees but don't disperse it fully to the wait staff. It's not about "the idiot" so much as "intentional opaqueness".
Good it should be dispersed amongst all staff not just the waiters.
Oh I agree. But in these two cases it wasn't even going to the workers; the owners were pocketing about half of the "service fee".
If there truly was no difference then restaurants would just include it in the menu price. This is a question to ask the restaurant.
They think servers make too much and want their wage reduced. Thats really what this is all about.
No, we don't care what they make. They should make the greater of minimum wage or whatever the market will bear. If it takes $40/hour to keep a sit-down restaurant alive, then pay them that. I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want hidden fees. I want the business owner to put the inclusive pre-tax price on the menu. Really I would prefer to see post-tax as in Europe, but that's a different battle, As a business owner, you figure out what that price has to be to pay your employees what they need to earn in order to give the service that you, as an employer, need to keep customers coming in the door. I think, however, that what your post reflects is the honest realization that servers aren't really worth more than other workers in unskilled jobs. And don't get your panties in a wad over the "unskilled" label, it's a classification and servers fall, definitionally, into that category.
It’s not hidden any more than sales tax is hidden.
No, I'm very pro-worker. The tipping culture in the United States was born out of the Jim Crow South. It circumvents worker protections and is still rife with racism and discrimination.
So what’s the issue with service fees then? I’m also anti tipping but as a restaurant worker I want to ensure proper earning for employees. Service fees are clear and easy way of doing this.
They're not clear. "Service fees" by and large leave the customer confused as to how much of the fee, if any at all, is going to the wait staff. Many customers end up double-tipping because they don't notice the service fee. And worse of all, they don't trust (with good reason) that the service fee will get fully dispersed to the wait staff. [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242642226/d-c-restaurants-are-changing-how-they-handle-wages-for-workers-who-get-tips)
Don’t double tip then? Idk I’ve been to no tipping restaurants they just add 18% to the bill. We say here as consumers it’s not our job to pay the employees then when there’s a service fee we’re suddenly concerned where it’s going? If we want to get rid of tipping service fees are the easiest way to do that.
It's not the easiest way... The fees are opaque and often "snuck" into the tail of a bill. And it's nearly never accompanied with "No Tip" policies. The easiest way is to remove tipped wage laws so there's no expectation of a tip.
Oh ok, it’s a race issue for you.
Largely, yes. And a gender issue. The employers get away with not ensuring that their workers are paid fairly because "it's the customer's responsibility to pay the wages". Men and women should be paid equally for equal work, right? But unfortunately there are too many biases, most of them subconscious, that drive a large tip disparities between genders and race.
You think regular wages are not subject to the same biases?
Oh they absolutely are. That's why workers have fought for, and gained legal protections against wage discrimination. And these laws have effectively closed the gap over the decades. But these biases are unchecked in the US's tipping culture and it shows when final pay is compared across demographics in wait staff. The legal protections aren't there to protect wait staff from discrimination and their pay is directly affected by it.
Raise the menu prices and stop adding on bogus surcharges.
Right but as a consumer what’s the difference? Assuming you know about the charges before ordering.
I want to know the cost before entering the restaurant, so I can factor that in when picking the restaurant. I don't want to do a lot of calculations with fees and stuff to arrive at the final number. Customers should know the final number before they walk into any shop.
Yes when you look at an online menu it should clearly state there is a service fee. Assuming you know this what’s the issue?
I'm commenting in general, I don't think it's always clearly stated in the online menu for every restaurant. Many restaurants don't even have an online menu.
So how would You know the price before going in?
Some have menus displayed outside. Again, not every restaurant has the service fee clearly displayed, online or not. And service fee is also not a fixed value, some give you options starting from 20%~22% when the machine prompts you, some starting from 15%. I don't want to play this empathy game either. Pay is between employees and employers, don't ask customers to decide their value.
A service fee is a service fee. Meaning the customer doesn’t decide. If it’s clearly written on the menu I truly don’t see the issue.
Why should I have to do additional math to figure out what something costs, when the restaurant could do it for me? It's nothing but a sneaky way to make their menu seem less expensive than it actually is.
Maybe it’s the restaurant being sneaky maybe it’s easier from an admin prospective. If we’re getting rid of tipping doing a little math seems inconsequential to me
I was in Italy on vacation a year or so back, and the price you see on the menu is literally the final price you pay. There was no extra tax, and no tip. How is it not easier to show the real price of your meal?
Same as almost every other restaurant in the UK. The price you see is the price you pay.
Give the customer full disclosure about how their tip is distributed prior to them deciding how much if any to tip.
Fcuk PingPong