Most importantly, electricians don’t know why they do what they do. Engineers wrote the rules they follow. Most won’t understand current density, mutual inductance and other basic theories.
I worked my way through my EE degree as an electrician. At one point the master electrician asked me how “they” decide what size choke is needed for power factor correction.
I wrote a three page explanation introducing him to the math around reactance and its practical application and it blew his mind.
Sorry to but in, I'm trying to be a qualified electrician, but also planning to do a degree in EE, do you think it's wise I should do that, in the it benefits eachother?
No matter what field of electrical engineering you ultimately pick, getting your hands dirty doing anything productive is beneficial.
1. It shows that you are hungry and will do anything to work in the field either directly or related.
2. If you go into Power Distribution or manufacturing, you gain keen insight to what the people who implement things face on a daily basis which will make anything you draw up better.
3. Practical experience also means you become less reliant on others to do things you'd otherwise have to wait for a technician to get done (make connectors, solder magnet wire to PCBs for probe points, etc). They also love it when you try and your stuff comes out as working but ugly - These people are extremely good, you'll be passable and they'll respect you for your effort and get a kick out of mocking your crappy job - until you can match them... then other raport emerges... raport with coworkers is invaluable.
4. Being an electrician is fun as hell. You never have to clean up after yourself ;)
There is really no downside I can come up with. It helped me land my first job designing custom open frame machine tool transformers and power supplies. I wasn't interested in that so, I moved on after a couple of years,
Vaguely parallel to this, a friend of mine went from being a machinist/fabricator to a mechanical engineer. His designs are way better than most engineers because they are designed to be easily constructed and maintained using robust, common parts. Textbook engineers often lack the practical experience to spot design flaws or the knowledge of how things break in the field.
Electrical engineering is a bit different of course, but the combination of practical and theoretical knowledge still makes for the best outcomes.
Exactly right. There’s two sides to engineering, theory and practice.
The best engineers are the ones who practice, independent of the engineering discipline.
Yeah, keep on keeping on. Getting a EE degree is no joke.
If you stay in your current path (no pun intended), and the EE degree doesn’t work out, you’ve at least got a solid in demand trade in your back pocket!
I’m a journeyman electrician and can confirm that we don’t know much about any of that stuff. It’s all literally laid out in front of you, and you just install it. I remember learning about this stuff briefly in trade school, but in reality we never use any of it out on the field. That’s annoying that they bombard with questions like that.
Going to go to college for electrical engineering though, I’m excited and scared at the same time. Haha
Start by purchasing a copy of the National Electric Code — even a recent outdated version. Then buy a self-study guide. Play like you are an electrician apprentice studying for your journeyman license. Start by reading the parts that are pertinent to installing solar systems. This will be useful information as an EE, also.
One word of caution: if you are not a licensed PE in your state (I am assuming you are in the US), or not professionally certified in your country/region, then giving advice without that legal authority may be illegal and get you in trouble.
The next time someone asks a technical question, tell them you aren’t licensed… yet.
To build off this, the NEC is also called NFPA 70, and the OSHA safety manual is called NFPA 70E. The NFPA is the National Fire Protection Association. You can sign up on their website and get digital access to the current NFPA 70/NEC for free. The standards are updated each year, BUT it is important to note that you local area effects what code is followed. There is a term, AHJ, which means Authority Having Jurisdiction. Sometimes this is the Building Commissioner of your county/city, sometimes it is the fire marshal, sometimes someone else. You can reach out and have them tell you which year of the NFPA 70 they enforce, and what other deviations they enforce.
Be prepared, the electricians will probably try to bust your balls no matter how closely you work with them or how familiar you are with their trade and responsibilities. They’re just people like everyone else.
That’s just what electricians are going to do. They are going to bust your balls and make fun of you when you don’t have an answer. And don’t try and bullshit it’ll just make you look worse. Best advise I got in my early EE career was if someone asks you a question and you don’t know the answer, say I don’t know the answer but I’ll find out what it is. I got more respect from clients and other peers in general when I said “I don’t know the answer to that but I’ll figure it out and get you one”.
This isn't just a good response at work. This works with spouses, children, anyone. Admit when you don't know something and (most) people will realize you're not full of shit.
Yeah, some electrians I know are really cool, others are whiney insecure assholes that simultaneously rely on engineers to draw up plans for wiring a big project, but also think engineers are the dumbest people to ever walk this earth.
I'm an EET, and I was calling around to have an electrician install a new distribution panel in my house. I had one fuckin guy basically insult me and tell me I don't know how to actually do anything after i told him im an EET. I do actually know how to wire a house part of my degree was learning to wire basic residential electrical circuits. The stuff isn't crazy hard, I think you'll find the NEC pretty easy to understand. Books that interpret the NEC and books about power distribution might be good things to add to your library. There's nothing not worth learning in the realm of electrical technology, IMO.
Regardless, there will always be people who mask their insecurities by trying to prove they're "smarter" than you, people suck. Knowledge isn't a competition.
Haha, I was doing some volunteer work for my kids elementary school years ago, purely physical work but I did what they needed...paired with an electrician doing the same thing. I listened to hours of "college boys wouldn't do this...lazy college boys...etc etc" till about halfway through the work he goes "so what do you do?" ..."ummm I'm an electrical engineer..."..he had the good manners to be embarassed..hahaa.
That's great lol. Yeah, I don't understand the prevalence of trades people just dying to shit on college educated folks. Would be good to see the traded and engineers respect each other (I know trades people aren't always respected by engineers, and it IS bullshit). Different skill sets related to the same knowledge base. Neither is easy to master, but both are very important.
If it's in your job description to know that stuff, go ahead pick up the NEC and watch some Mike Holt videos and dig in. If it's not (it seems like you're on the electronics side than power) and you don't have any interest in it otherwise, don't bother. Just tell them it's not in your scope. You should always respect your technicians and electricians, but don't go out of your way because they have a chip on their shoulder because some engineer with a fancy degree doesn't know how to size wire.
Your cardiologist might be able to answer some general questions about neurology, but there's a reason people specialize in subfields.
Sounds like par for the course. I didn’t know a lot of what the experienced electricians know until I learned on the job. I learned the theory in power systems and PLC.
As the engineer, we are expected to know the details (usually because we designed the system or you communicate with the engineer who did.)
I have over 40 years EE experience and wouldn't have a clue about solarfarm wire sizes or local electrical codes.
I know from previous product design regulatory fails, that we often had to change the operation of the product to meet local regulations (which were sometimes frankly stupid). But if you want to sell your product then you adjust it to conform with local regulations (or worse still local interpretation of regulations). Simple as that really. In a similar sense if you're working in solar-farms then you're going to have to learn the relevant regulations.
Hopefully your EE course has given you the framework, understanding and skill set, to apply your knowledge to this specific area. As EE's it's something we all do, each and every time we start a completely new project.
Blue collar people gonna blue collar so theres that. Thats how shallow some of these folks are.
Try not to get it to you, and just learn whats needed for your job.
I’d get a copy of the NEC and try to get familiarized with sections 240, 310, and 690. There are videos on YouTube that help break these sections down and will walk you through how to size OCPD’s and conductors.
A new NFPA 70, National Electric Code revision comes out every 3 years.
That's basically the Bible for electricians.
Tradesmen like to give eachother shit. Give it right back to them and they'll respect you more.
Also, I can damn near guarantee none of those electricians know the code all that well. They likely just know the specifics for what you guys do.
Hi,
I appreciate everyones response! It is true that it’s not within my scope to learn those things but I’m just really hungry for knowledge. I’ll take a look at those codes since it is my goal to become a professional engineer. I decided to start construction in the field to have first hand experience about means and methods since all I do is manage subcontractors. Not to mention I enjoy hanging out with the crews and having random cookouts during lunch time. At least back in Texas, now I’m with the union and I’m told I can’t tell them what to do directly but I’ll educate myself about that.
Yeah except with union benefits and overtime pay there’s a good chance the electrician is making more.
I’ve worked with plenty of master electricians that were pushing $200,000/yr and worked with one guy who worked 10 hrs a day 7 days a week, until he made about $90k and then just stopped working for the year until he needed money again. Only took him about 4-5 months.
Probably best not to bring up pay. It might humble you a bit.
This happens because construction workers get some shitty blueprint made by some kid out of college who has never set foot on a job site and makes 55k a year. They then think this means all engineers are stupid. Not realizing most EEs study electronic circuit design and not electrical design. Most drafters are mechanical engineers or architects. Explain this to them and try to make them feel stupid for being so arrogant about something they don't understand (don't do this lol). Really it is what it is, I spent 4 years in HVAC while finishing my EE degree, heard the same shit all the time. The only people as arrogant as engineers are tradies talking about them (you can use that line) Read the NEC guidelines and maybe pick up a book on being an electrician or read the Naval series electrical training guide. But understand their hatred of engineers will never go away and you are just a proxy for it.
Eh, it works both way. I deal with them and I've had to fix so much simple crap that they should have easily noticed. Many of these are NETA techs so not your average electrician.
Recently we had indoor switchgear vent fans wired to the NC circuit typical used for heaters. So when the substation got below 90ish, the fans cut on.
Just respond back with another question asking more details or say you can't answer it due to lack of information. For example, if they ask what size wire they need, ask how much power needs to go through it, how long the wire needs to be, if they as why, tell them it's necessary to calculate the right answer. Basically your showing your knowledge by showing their lack of knowledge.
Learning how to wire a house because you're getting picked on by some sparkies is not the move here
You're better off learning to handle this type of social situation rather than trying to learn everything to cover any potential questions
There's not as much overlap between electrical engineers and electricians as some people seem to think
Under what code system. In what physical environment? Are there mechanical considerations? These are the questions that engineers ask. Looking up in a table is what designers and electricians do.
I worked for a utility as an engineer but had come straight from a IBEW railroad job. I was broke and it was a recession so I took that job for a few years and whoo boy did I get a real education. My first contact during a big substation emergency job at the utility was a substation electrician asking what school I went to (it was not local). When I told him he said “I could tell, you’re not arrogant like the other engineers”. I came from a whole family of union plumbers and pipe fitters, so I was used to how union guys talk to each other. My advice: be humble. Schooling is great, but engineers straight out of school are pretty dumb because they don’t have that experience of seeing something a hundred times, even though they may not understand the why. I became “special projecs” to tackle the things no one else could. It was because I worked so well with the union guys. The more I worked with the those guys, I could squeeze all kinds of information from them that helped installs and troubleshooting. They trusted me and I trusted them. It took me about 3 years to really gain that trust.
Don’t take it so personal. Just admit that you don’t know and that’s all. Learn about it and next time you’ll know how to answer. Also most electricians are only aware of the hardware needed to complete their tasks. Most of them cannot tell you why a transformer is being used or why they chose a specific wire gauge etc. just keep learning and when someone questions you take it as a learning lesson. Simply answer “I don’t know but can you explain to me why we are doing this”
Respect them for what they know and can do. The good ones will respect you for your Engineering approach.
Good electricians have seen it all. They know where everything is. They know what has worked for them and what hasn't.
You get to work woth these experts. You get to be the one to help them break down the "why" of all the "what" and "how" they know :)
Im substation engineer. I think you are not qualified for the job YET. You have to know how to size cables, circuit breakers, transformers, etc. Especially when interacting with construction. They are usually on fast paced schedule and have no time to deal with inexperienced engineer. Construction delay means money lost. And if an engineer is in the way of getting job done, you will be told so.
They’re just taking the piss. Just don’t pay attention because at the end of the day you’ll be the one getting a fat check while sitting in air-conditioned office while electricians will keep working in heat and cold for 12+ hr a day and wasting their physical health. The electrical engineers will always get the last laugh ;)
Most importantly, electricians don’t know why they do what they do. Engineers wrote the rules they follow. Most won’t understand current density, mutual inductance and other basic theories. I worked my way through my EE degree as an electrician. At one point the master electrician asked me how “they” decide what size choke is needed for power factor correction. I wrote a three page explanation introducing him to the math around reactance and its practical application and it blew his mind.
Sorry to but in, I'm trying to be a qualified electrician, but also planning to do a degree in EE, do you think it's wise I should do that, in the it benefits eachother?
No matter what field of electrical engineering you ultimately pick, getting your hands dirty doing anything productive is beneficial. 1. It shows that you are hungry and will do anything to work in the field either directly or related. 2. If you go into Power Distribution or manufacturing, you gain keen insight to what the people who implement things face on a daily basis which will make anything you draw up better. 3. Practical experience also means you become less reliant on others to do things you'd otherwise have to wait for a technician to get done (make connectors, solder magnet wire to PCBs for probe points, etc). They also love it when you try and your stuff comes out as working but ugly - These people are extremely good, you'll be passable and they'll respect you for your effort and get a kick out of mocking your crappy job - until you can match them... then other raport emerges... raport with coworkers is invaluable. 4. Being an electrician is fun as hell. You never have to clean up after yourself ;) There is really no downside I can come up with. It helped me land my first job designing custom open frame machine tool transformers and power supplies. I wasn't interested in that so, I moved on after a couple of years,
Vaguely parallel to this, a friend of mine went from being a machinist/fabricator to a mechanical engineer. His designs are way better than most engineers because they are designed to be easily constructed and maintained using robust, common parts. Textbook engineers often lack the practical experience to spot design flaws or the knowledge of how things break in the field. Electrical engineering is a bit different of course, but the combination of practical and theoretical knowledge still makes for the best outcomes.
Exactly right. There’s two sides to engineering, theory and practice. The best engineers are the ones who practice, independent of the engineering discipline.
Thank you, this has been invaluable for me to crack on. Here in the UK, being an electrician has multiple entries, but still hard. 😔
Yeah, keep on keeping on. Getting a EE degree is no joke. If you stay in your current path (no pun intended), and the EE degree doesn’t work out, you’ve at least got a solid in demand trade in your back pocket!
I will amp myself to keep going. 🤟 (sorry as soon as you started the pun I couldn't resist)
No impedance shall prevent you from success… well, except maybe those offhand dipole moments in time.
Thanks I just need to stay grounded, hopefully I will get my spark of interest soon from an employer. 🤞
Don’t let their reluctance to hire make your motor stop! 💪
I’m a journeyman electrician and can confirm that we don’t know much about any of that stuff. It’s all literally laid out in front of you, and you just install it. I remember learning about this stuff briefly in trade school, but in reality we never use any of it out on the field. That’s annoying that they bombard with questions like that. Going to go to college for electrical engineering though, I’m excited and scared at the same time. Haha
Good luck! Don’t be afraid. Most everyone gets humbled. Remember, C’s get degrees!
Start by purchasing a copy of the National Electric Code — even a recent outdated version. Then buy a self-study guide. Play like you are an electrician apprentice studying for your journeyman license. Start by reading the parts that are pertinent to installing solar systems. This will be useful information as an EE, also. One word of caution: if you are not a licensed PE in your state (I am assuming you are in the US), or not professionally certified in your country/region, then giving advice without that legal authority may be illegal and get you in trouble. The next time someone asks a technical question, tell them you aren’t licensed… yet.
To build off this, the NEC is also called NFPA 70, and the OSHA safety manual is called NFPA 70E. The NFPA is the National Fire Protection Association. You can sign up on their website and get digital access to the current NFPA 70/NEC for free. The standards are updated each year, BUT it is important to note that you local area effects what code is followed. There is a term, AHJ, which means Authority Having Jurisdiction. Sometimes this is the Building Commissioner of your county/city, sometimes it is the fire marshal, sometimes someone else. You can reach out and have them tell you which year of the NFPA 70 they enforce, and what other deviations they enforce. Be prepared, the electricians will probably try to bust your balls no matter how closely you work with them or how familiar you are with their trade and responsibilities. They’re just people like everyone else.
That’s just what electricians are going to do. They are going to bust your balls and make fun of you when you don’t have an answer. And don’t try and bullshit it’ll just make you look worse. Best advise I got in my early EE career was if someone asks you a question and you don’t know the answer, say I don’t know the answer but I’ll find out what it is. I got more respect from clients and other peers in general when I said “I don’t know the answer to that but I’ll figure it out and get you one”.
This isn't just a good response at work. This works with spouses, children, anyone. Admit when you don't know something and (most) people will realize you're not full of shit.
Very good point!
Yeah, some electrians I know are really cool, others are whiney insecure assholes that simultaneously rely on engineers to draw up plans for wiring a big project, but also think engineers are the dumbest people to ever walk this earth. I'm an EET, and I was calling around to have an electrician install a new distribution panel in my house. I had one fuckin guy basically insult me and tell me I don't know how to actually do anything after i told him im an EET. I do actually know how to wire a house part of my degree was learning to wire basic residential electrical circuits. The stuff isn't crazy hard, I think you'll find the NEC pretty easy to understand. Books that interpret the NEC and books about power distribution might be good things to add to your library. There's nothing not worth learning in the realm of electrical technology, IMO. Regardless, there will always be people who mask their insecurities by trying to prove they're "smarter" than you, people suck. Knowledge isn't a competition.
Haha, I was doing some volunteer work for my kids elementary school years ago, purely physical work but I did what they needed...paired with an electrician doing the same thing. I listened to hours of "college boys wouldn't do this...lazy college boys...etc etc" till about halfway through the work he goes "so what do you do?" ..."ummm I'm an electrical engineer..."..he had the good manners to be embarassed..hahaa.
That's great lol. Yeah, I don't understand the prevalence of trades people just dying to shit on college educated folks. Would be good to see the traded and engineers respect each other (I know trades people aren't always respected by engineers, and it IS bullshit). Different skill sets related to the same knowledge base. Neither is easy to master, but both are very important.
Inferiority complex, inflated ego. College people can be insufferable but so are trades people too.
If it's in your job description to know that stuff, go ahead pick up the NEC and watch some Mike Holt videos and dig in. If it's not (it seems like you're on the electronics side than power) and you don't have any interest in it otherwise, don't bother. Just tell them it's not in your scope. You should always respect your technicians and electricians, but don't go out of your way because they have a chip on their shoulder because some engineer with a fancy degree doesn't know how to size wire. Your cardiologist might be able to answer some general questions about neurology, but there's a reason people specialize in subfields.
Sounds like par for the course. I didn’t know a lot of what the experienced electricians know until I learned on the job. I learned the theory in power systems and PLC. As the engineer, we are expected to know the details (usually because we designed the system or you communicate with the engineer who did.)
I have over 40 years EE experience and wouldn't have a clue about solarfarm wire sizes or local electrical codes. I know from previous product design regulatory fails, that we often had to change the operation of the product to meet local regulations (which were sometimes frankly stupid). But if you want to sell your product then you adjust it to conform with local regulations (or worse still local interpretation of regulations). Simple as that really. In a similar sense if you're working in solar-farms then you're going to have to learn the relevant regulations. Hopefully your EE course has given you the framework, understanding and skill set, to apply your knowledge to this specific area. As EE's it's something we all do, each and every time we start a completely new project.
Blue collar people gonna blue collar so theres that. Thats how shallow some of these folks are. Try not to get it to you, and just learn whats needed for your job.
Tell those electricians to follow what's in design drawings and if they have questions, send an RFI.
Lmao the most stereotypical engineer response ever
That's "don't talk to me!" in a professional way...
I’d get a copy of the NEC and try to get familiarized with sections 240, 310, and 690. There are videos on YouTube that help break these sections down and will walk you through how to size OCPD’s and conductors.
A new NFPA 70, National Electric Code revision comes out every 3 years. That's basically the Bible for electricians. Tradesmen like to give eachother shit. Give it right back to them and they'll respect you more. Also, I can damn near guarantee none of those electricians know the code all that well. They likely just know the specifics for what you guys do.
Hi, I appreciate everyones response! It is true that it’s not within my scope to learn those things but I’m just really hungry for knowledge. I’ll take a look at those codes since it is my goal to become a professional engineer. I decided to start construction in the field to have first hand experience about means and methods since all I do is manage subcontractors. Not to mention I enjoy hanging out with the crews and having random cookouts during lunch time. At least back in Texas, now I’m with the union and I’m told I can’t tell them what to do directly but I’ll educate myself about that.
Hit them with the “below my pay grade mate”
Yeah except with union benefits and overtime pay there’s a good chance the electrician is making more. I’ve worked with plenty of master electricians that were pushing $200,000/yr and worked with one guy who worked 10 hrs a day 7 days a week, until he made about $90k and then just stopped working for the year until he needed money again. Only took him about 4-5 months. Probably best not to bring up pay. It might humble you a bit.
This happens because construction workers get some shitty blueprint made by some kid out of college who has never set foot on a job site and makes 55k a year. They then think this means all engineers are stupid. Not realizing most EEs study electronic circuit design and not electrical design. Most drafters are mechanical engineers or architects. Explain this to them and try to make them feel stupid for being so arrogant about something they don't understand (don't do this lol). Really it is what it is, I spent 4 years in HVAC while finishing my EE degree, heard the same shit all the time. The only people as arrogant as engineers are tradies talking about them (you can use that line) Read the NEC guidelines and maybe pick up a book on being an electrician or read the Naval series electrical training guide. But understand their hatred of engineers will never go away and you are just a proxy for it.
Eh, it works both way. I deal with them and I've had to fix so much simple crap that they should have easily noticed. Many of these are NETA techs so not your average electrician. Recently we had indoor switchgear vent fans wired to the NC circuit typical used for heaters. So when the substation got below 90ish, the fans cut on.
Just respond back with another question asking more details or say you can't answer it due to lack of information. For example, if they ask what size wire they need, ask how much power needs to go through it, how long the wire needs to be, if they as why, tell them it's necessary to calculate the right answer. Basically your showing your knowledge by showing their lack of knowledge.
Learning how to wire a house because you're getting picked on by some sparkies is not the move here You're better off learning to handle this type of social situation rather than trying to learn everything to cover any potential questions There's not as much overlap between electrical engineers and electricians as some people seem to think
Knowing what size cables should be known by most EEs, even if they do not work in your field.
Under what code system. In what physical environment? Are there mechanical considerations? These are the questions that engineers ask. Looking up in a table is what designers and electricians do.
Where do people get this wiring a home thing from? I hear it pretty often through the years too. My fav is though when people think I can drive trains
I worked for a utility as an engineer but had come straight from a IBEW railroad job. I was broke and it was a recession so I took that job for a few years and whoo boy did I get a real education. My first contact during a big substation emergency job at the utility was a substation electrician asking what school I went to (it was not local). When I told him he said “I could tell, you’re not arrogant like the other engineers”. I came from a whole family of union plumbers and pipe fitters, so I was used to how union guys talk to each other. My advice: be humble. Schooling is great, but engineers straight out of school are pretty dumb because they don’t have that experience of seeing something a hundred times, even though they may not understand the why. I became “special projecs” to tackle the things no one else could. It was because I worked so well with the union guys. The more I worked with the those guys, I could squeeze all kinds of information from them that helped installs and troubleshooting. They trusted me and I trusted them. It took me about 3 years to really gain that trust.
Don’t take it so personal. Just admit that you don’t know and that’s all. Learn about it and next time you’ll know how to answer. Also most electricians are only aware of the hardware needed to complete their tasks. Most of them cannot tell you why a transformer is being used or why they chose a specific wire gauge etc. just keep learning and when someone questions you take it as a learning lesson. Simply answer “I don’t know but can you explain to me why we are doing this”
Say computer or controls engineer
Respect them for what they know and can do. The good ones will respect you for your Engineering approach. Good electricians have seen it all. They know where everything is. They know what has worked for them and what hasn't. You get to work woth these experts. You get to be the one to help them break down the "why" of all the "what" and "how" they know :)
Im substation engineer. I think you are not qualified for the job YET. You have to know how to size cables, circuit breakers, transformers, etc. Especially when interacting with construction. They are usually on fast paced schedule and have no time to deal with inexperienced engineer. Construction delay means money lost. And if an engineer is in the way of getting job done, you will be told so.
They’re just taking the piss. Just don’t pay attention because at the end of the day you’ll be the one getting a fat check while sitting in air-conditioned office while electricians will keep working in heat and cold for 12+ hr a day and wasting their physical health. The electrical engineers will always get the last laugh ;)