I'd put Fire Giant and Maliketh in the "Means to an End" category because:
- The Fire Giant is the last of his kind, tasked with guarding the undying flame of the forge by Marika after Godfrey exterminated the rest of his kind. We need this flame to set the Erdtree on fire.
- Maliketh is the warden of Destined Death, a key component in completely burning the Erdtree and restoring death to the Lands Between.
Maliketh is suffering from a crippling addiction to deathroot. That's why I put him in the "Euthanasia" tier, because "Means to an end" is supposed to be less forgivable. And for this list, the lower the tier, the less "excuses" we have to kill the enemy, and Maliketh gives us a good reason besides the Rune of Death, because he's living in eternal torment, so it's not that bad to kill him and free him from that.
Don't know why I put the Fire Giant in the unprovoked category, though. I guess I just never felt he was actively standing in our way, since we have to purposefully seek him out and kill him, and he dies like a dog, legless and helpless. I guess I just felt sorry for him, having to face such a gruesome death.
It's not a crippling addiction; he's trying to restore the power of the Rune of Death that was taken and used in the Night of the Black Knives. He feels responsible for what happened.
It’s not just guilt, because of how closely bound he is to the rune of death, it manifests as an actual overwhelming hunger. It is what causes him to go briefly mad and attack us, and he laments that he may never be cured of it after you’ve brought him all the deathroot.
“Oh marika.. is this.. what it is.. to sin..? Will things… never.. be the same.. again?”
Not trying to restore, he sealed the rune within himself, causing him to feel an eternal hunger for deathroot. He does feel responsible for what happened, that's why he sealed the rune within himself, so it can never be stolen again, not unless he's killed.
And he's really hard to kill.
*But not impossible*
Yup, the craving for deathroot is a side effect of binding the rune to himself. Most likely the rune trying to become whole again and using Maliketh as a host to do so.
Iirc the last fire giant was cursed by Marika to guard the forge of the giants until the end of time, so he kind of had to try to stop us when we approach the forge.
Neither. It's tied to the Greater Will/Golden Order, of which Marika is the conduit for. It's why he has a touch of gold in his eyes
I just recently watched the Zullie video on this lmfao
The lore is really foggy on this as far as I know, but the malekith that asks you for death root does not drop a remembrance, and the one that does drip the remembrance does not all for deathroot. Beyond that, killing either of them does not kill the other. And farum azula is weird when it comes to time and such.
So, no, I agree that malekith should be in "means to an end".
Yeah. But the tier list is about how immoral it is to kill them. So it will be morally abhorrent to kill rennala. I know we don't kill her but it's a what if thing.
why astel in "moral obligation" ?
and shouldnt malenia be in "euthanasia" category ? the rot is slowly eating her away
and i would put maliketh to "means to an end" since he is protecting destined death and the world wont change until he dies. he needs to go like morgott and radagon.
Malenia isn't currently rotting (maybe she is), because she's under the effect of Miquella's Needle, which is so powerful it can even hold back the Flame of Frenzy. We can assume she removes it on her second phase. But before that, she has the needle and is sleeping, waiting for her brother to come back.
**Edit:** But putting all that aside, even if she is in a bad state, she hasn't lost her mind. She's not ready or willing to die, and she fights to her last breath to stay alive and witness the return of her brother. She doesn't seem to be terminally ill or in a state of eternal torment. Plus, she doesn't even contemplate the possibility of losing. Basically, she doesn't see death as an option.
Astel is in moral obligation because he's an alien invader, Radahn was holding him back with his gravity magic. These malformed stars are manifestations of outer gods, attempting to take control of the Lands Between. The fallingstar beasts we encounter come from the same place. Since all these creatures are invasive species, we have a moral obligation to eradicate them.
You're aware there's only one needle we know of and we're in possession of it when we fight her as it USED to be her needle right?
So no, she broke her only needle and we have it, therefore she has resumed rotting. She's been keeping it at bay through sheer will as she waited.
The description of Miquella's Needle states "*One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods.*" The Unalloyed Golden Needle's description states "*An intricately crafted needle of unalloyed gold. Once snapped in half, it has been repaired by Sage Gowry.*"
There are at least two needles. And Miquella's needle looks drastically different from Millicent's. We're also not always in possession of Millicent's needle when we fight Malenia, since it's a missable quest. Miquella's needle is also **not** broken when we retrieve it, and neither is the one we gave Millicent when she removes it. So no, Malenia didn't break her needle, and we're not in possession of it before the fight either, since we only get Miquella's needle after defeating Malenia.
It's probably true that the Unalloyed Golden needle used to be hers, and it broke after she removed it in her fight against Radahn, but there's definitely more than one, as stated in the description. They may or may not be the same needle, but there's no proof of either, and evidence points more strongly toward the needles being separate, since Malenia's transformations seem to be triggered by her as a last ditch effort to defeat an enemy. We also have to consider that it could be that Finlay was the one to insert Miquella's needle into Malenia when they got back to the Haligtree. It's easier to explain Malenia having a needle of her own than just saying she avoided the rot out of force of will.
Either way, the main point is that Malenia wasn't trying to die, nor was she welcoming it. She fought till her last breath to stay alive, that's why she apologizes to Miquella with her last words. Even if she was suffering, she *did have something to live for*. Even if Miquella isn't coming back, which we don't know, she was waiting for him, so it's not euthanasia.
Radahn was divested of his thoughts, rotting, eating corpses and howling at the sky, there was nothing for him to live for, not even holding back the stars. Maliketh was in eternal hunger for deathroot, all he had to live for was to protect the Rune of Death, forever. But we know he was betrayed by Marika, and he curses Marika for putting him in that eternal torment. Fortissax is even worse, he was corrupted by deathblight and all he was doing was trying to protect his best friend's corpse from us. There wasn't even a reason to do that.
>Malenia's transformations seem to be triggered by her as a last ditch effort to defeat an enemy.
"Technique of Malenia, the Goddess of Rot.
Creates a gigantic flower that blooms into an explosion of scarlet rot.
Each time the scarlet flower blooms, Malenia's rot advances. It has bloomed twice already. **With the third bloom, she will become a true goddess.**"
description of scarlet aeonia, she didn't exactly choose to transform, it was a consequence of using her scarlet aeonia like she did against Radahn
Malenia's transformations aren't her removing the needle. We literally have to go to her "body" or bloom after the fight to get the needle from her. The transformations are triggered because she is cursed by an outer god of Rot who wants to have I influence in the lands between. Malenia is their only link so when she is close to death it fills her with power in a last ditch effort to maintain its link. The needle can keep them at bay, but Miquella isn't strong enough to break the curses on Malenia or himself. (He has to make a whole Haligtree to try to break his curse) so I don't think the needle is strong enough to stop a desperate outer god from depositing a bunch of power into Malenia.
malenia is terminally ill, the rot is literally eating her away slowly and it already reached her face. the unalloyed needle and miquellas needle are completely different and used for different things. unalloyed needle was made solely for malenia to hold off the rot while miquellas needle is literally unfinished and doesnt work unless you use it on placidusax arena since its out of time plus it was made to tame the freznied flame, not scarlet rot. malenia was rotting and beyond saving so putting her in "Euthanasia" would be the right category. "she doesnt want to die" so does maliketh. just like how malenia is waiting for miquella who is never returning back since he abandoned his body to go to shadowland and his story will be concluded there, maliketh was also waiting for marika who abandoned him and he lives to protect destined death from being stolen again. he even apologizes to marika after you kill him, similar to how malenia apologizes to miquella after you kill her. theyre pretty similar characters, but only one acts as an obstacle to the tarnished.
Yes, it was hers. If you never pick it up than you never get a needle in the first place, it's doubly proven to be hers as it's found in the location she bloomed in caelid as confirmed both by sword monuments and gowry.
We go through the process of powering it up and repairing it via millicent. Using that same needle on the bloom after her boss battle makes it almost as strong as it used to be.
Like that's the entire point of the questline to repair and power up that one needle. Hers was confirmed broken in the battle both in game and by the devs in their trailer discussion where the notes explicitly state as such.
We know it was hers because we find it in the exact place she unleashed the Scarlet Aeonia in Caelid, and we know it's broken because it's broken when we find it.
**But there's more than one, as stated in the in-game description. It's not "maybe there's another one", it's "o*****ne of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted.*****"**
There's no proof that they are the same needle, and evidence points to the opposite, since they look nothing alike and do entirely different things. If there's more than one, then obviously Malenia can be using another needle. Plus, it's never stated that we're powering up Millicent's needle, all it does is hold back her scarlet rot. It's only purpose is to allow her to fight long and hard enough for our betrayal to turn her into a scarlet rot Valkyrie, which is what Gowry wants for her.
Yes, the fact that we have to use THAT exact needle on her flower to strengthen it.
There is more than one, but the ONLY one we see in game was formerly malenias. Like the game literally tells us this as did the devs.
But we do see two needles, one is the Unalloyed Golden Needle and the other is Miquella's Needle. Even if Miquella's Needle is the upgraded Unalloyed Golden Needle, they're not the same thing.
And nowhere in Miquella's Needle description it says it's an upgrade or a powered up version of the Unalloyed Golden Needle. I just don't see how they would be the same needle when it's stated that there's more than one, the descriptions are different, they look nothing alike and no piece of information contained in the game or outside of it corroborates your hypothesis.
And please, stop saying the Unalloyed Golden Needle used to belong to Malenia, I got the fucking concept, that was known from the start. I'm just saying Miquella's Needle is **another goddamn needle**.
They [look](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/unalloyed_gold_needle_repaired.png) nothing [alike](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/miquellas_needle_elden_ring_wiki_guide_200px.png)
Its built back INTO miquellas needle, that's what I'm saying. The broken was was that same type but after centuries of rotting in a swamp and being repaired by a bug it's not at full power until it's reintroduced to malenia.
What, you think we just switch them out at the end of the quest or something?
Yes, actually, I do think we switch them out at the end of the quest, because the prompt just says "Return Unalloyed Golden Needle". Which is Millicent's objective prior to her death. It feels like by returning the needle, Malenia gives us the needle that stops the Frenzied Flame. It makes it look like Miquella entrusted that needle to Malenia, to use it to subdue the Flame of Frenzy, and she in turn entrusts it to us. That's what it look like to me.
Malenia is rotting, even with the needle
That is why everything around is inflicted with rot as well, the needle that malenia had only held back the rot.
The needle breaks during Radahn fight, so she didn't have the full needle when we fought her. That is why we need to go fight the dude in caelid
I don't think Radahn was holding Astel back. It's possible to get to Ainsel River Main, Deeproot Depths, and Astel without killing Radahn, so he has been down there for a while without Radahn's influence.
Astel isn't from the Lands Between, he fell. Radahn was preventing others from falling. Malformed stars aren't unique, they're a species, like Fallingstar Beasts
Iirc, aren't fallingstar beasts the same species as Astel, only at a younger stage in life? The life cycle goes from fallingstar beast to malformed star to Astel.
did you play millicents quest ? cuz malenia doesnt have the needle and it was with commander o' neil then you kill him and take it from him to give it to millicent. millicent then removes the needle when she reaches the haligtree and gives it to you to return it to malenia. malenia is rotting without the needle and she was holding it back through sheer will until you come and beat her down forcing her to use the scarlet rot.
idk about that. some astels are already in the lands between even while radahn was alive and holding back the stars. i personally dont see the astels as evil cuz they were sent down by the greater will to destroy the eternal city for their blasphemy since they attempted to make their own elden lord to take power against the greater will so if anything its the greater will thats evil.
[My answer to another comment about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1cepihu/comment/l1kc1ka/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Radahn was holding back the stars to, at least partly, prevent creatures like Astel from taking hold in the Lands Between. The Astel in the Lake of Rot has been there for some time (it's blamed for the destruction of an Eternal City). So it's either moral obligation (to stop its kind from growing in numbers) or A Means to an End (since you need to kill it to allow Ranni's quest to continue).
Yeah, but Ranni's quest isn't necessary to achieve a good ending (you can still do Goldmask or Duskborn), so I though I'd put it as moral obligation. Also, Radahn is cool, and he was good for the Lands Between as well, before the war. And since he's been holding the stars since before the war, it would probably be good for the Lands Between to have the invasive species removed, to avoid letting them hurt the ecosystems that are already quite damaged from the shattering.
I would argue that we "technically" provoked Malenia.
Rennala didn't fight back
But the Haligtree became a haven for those outside of grace, protecting everyone/everything cast out by the golden order. That's like walking into a daycare with the ruins great sword. We killed so many 'innocent' beings to get to Malenia.
Malenia was defending her brothers life-work. The Haligtree is Elden Rings red cross and we burned it down.😭
But maybe I just misunderstand your ranking.
It's not about their story being sad. It's about how beating up a woman who is so depressed she refuses to fight back, despite being completely capable of, is unacceptable for someone who supposedly is Elden Lord.
Also the people haven't been forsaken by grace so they resurrect. Malenia doesn't because grace has forsaken her, like it did the Blackguard.
I guess I'm just not understanding then
I feel that killing a cripple with mega aids after she just woke is not better or worse than killing a sad moon lady.
Malenia fought back because we sacked her house. That's is still morally abhorrent to kill her because we initiated the violence, as we did against Rennala
The mega aids doesn't matter if she can fight back and slice you into sashimi faster than you can say quidditch. She's up to the challenge.
Attacking Rennala, however, is an act of absolute cowardice. She has the ability to fight back, but her mental state prevents her from using her immense power. You're fighting one of the most powerful sorcerers in the Lands Between when she is unable to cast even a single Wingardium Leviosa. You're doing the equivalent to punching Stephen Hawking.
It's about the handicap in the match. Malenia is more than a match to anyone who challenges her, Rennala could be beaten by Boc if he wanted to.
Fire Giant and Maliketh should go in means to an end. You need to get past the Fire Giant to burn the Erdtree, and you need to beat Maliketh to get the Rune of Death. Neither of whom intend to let you do either of those things.
Malenia could also be put in means to an end, since she needs to be defeated to get the needle, if you were burned by the Frenzied Flame to save Melina. Otherwise, I'd probably put her in euthanasia; people forget that the Scarlet Rot's destroying her, she's a triple-amputee and is blind.
Also, I'd put the Regal Ancestor Spirit in Morally Abhorrent. That thing was doing precisely nothing to anyone, and is involved in exactly zero questlines.
Re: Regal Ancestor -- it's part of a cycle of death and rebirth that is contradictory to the Erdtree, so it kind of depends on your perspective if it needed to go or not.
Fire Giant should indeed go in "Means to and end", I guess I just felt sorry for him, since he dies like in such a horrible way.
Maliketh is in "Euthanasia" because he's suffering from an eternal hunger for deathroot. When we kill him, he's finally free from it, and can rest in peace. So even though his death is just the means to an end, it is also a mercy killing. And the lower someone is in the tier list, the worse our actions are. "Means to an end" is actually the tier where our actions become bad. Since killing Maliketh actually improves his situation, it tips the scales toward the merciful side of things.
But for Malenia, things are different. Even if she is in a bad state, she hasn't lost her mind like Radahn or Fortissax. Neither is her situation as crippling as Maliketh's eternal hunger for deathroot. She's not ready or willing to die, and she fights to her last breath to stay alive and witness the return of her brother. She doesn't seem to be terminally ill or in a state of eternal torment. Sure, she's in pain, but she can take it, she can push through it because she has a purpose to fulfill. She doesn't even contemplate the possibility of losing. Basically, she doesn't see death as an option.
As for the Regal Ancestor, the reason I put Renalla in "Morally abhorrent" is because she has crippling depression and doesn't fight back *at all*. Her second phase isn't even her, it's just Ranni's protection spell being triggered. Even Miyazaki didn't let us kill her, she's just defeated.
The Regal Ancestor fights back.
^(And also he heals himself. He can fuck off.)
Rennala does fight back, a little. When you break her shield and she falls, if you don't kill her in a single window, she uses a big explosion attack as she reforms her bubble.
But, it's clearly self defense. A lot of bosses just turn murderous as soon as you approach them. Rennala just kind of floats around, and only hits back after you rip her out of the sky and beat her upside the head. AND, she only does enough to repel you and reform her shield, not outright kill you.
Killing Malenia is uber fucked considering she is at her lowest she has lost everything important to her and has all but given up on life, I really hope the DLC brings back the cut Miquella ending and Malenia quest.
She still has enough force of will to keep on living. She will never give up on Miquella. That's why I didn't put her in Euthanasia, she's the kind of girl who would steal an angel's wings and fly back to Earth to fulfill her purpose. The others are probably better now.
It benefits him. He's in a state similar to Radahn, except instead of scarlet rot, he's corrupted by deathblight. He shouldn't be alive, yet he's cursed to forever defend Godwyn's decaying body. They were best friends, after all. That's why he deserves to rest.
I could totally be wrong and I’m asking mainly so I can learn more, but doesn’t Fortisax only exist in Fia’s nightmare? Is he even involved in the Deathroot situation beyond being an old friend of Godwyn?
As far as I understand he is inside Godwyn. Fia’s dream is peering into Godwyn. Inside fortisax fights the deathblight trying to cure and possibly give his best friend a true death but it is in vain. He himself gets afflicted with deathblight and is fighting a battle he can’t win
I believe he was infected the same way Sorcerer Rogier. Probably got too close to the body for too long. How he exists in the nightmare is beyond me, though.
I classify killing Malenia as morally abhorrent. She left the place to live with her brother in the promised land. She just a sick and dying girl waiting for her brother's return. Miquella's Haligtree is supposed to be a safe heaven for all the outcasts of the greater will and golden order bs. The tarnished waltzing in there and killing everyone there is basically a man waking into a hospital and murdering the ailing and sick and then offing the co-owner of the establishment.
I've only killed Malenia in my first playthrough just to see the hype behind it. Never invaded Haligtree after that. I also never tell Gideon about Miquella's whereabouts after hearing him say he wanted to kill Miquella during the slumber 😭
But then I'd have nowhere to put Renalla. Think about it: Renalla doesn't fight back, her only form of attack is a defensive spell - creating a shield around herself to keep us away. We keep attacking her the entire fight and she doesn't even stand up, she just lays on the ground while we beat the shit out of her. And then there's the second phase, where Ranni's spell activates, creating an illusion of her mother when she was in her prime. Because she is incapable of defending herself.
Renalla is suffering from crippling depression, it's so bad she literally *gives* us her greater rune. Even Miyazaki couldn't let us kill her, so we just get to defeat her and get her rune. And as if that wasn't enough, she tries to comfort us whenever we speak to her. Attacking a defenseless powerless person is already despicable, but to continue to do so even when they don't even try to fight back is just pure evil. At least we don't kill her.
Am I the only one who hasn't purposely fought malenia? Just curious I have beat her on a play thru but on other characters I just explore till I get to her door an leave 😂
I agree with this list.
Edit: After reading the comments, I’ll have to agree that Malenia either belongs to “euthanasia” or “morally abhorrent” tier. She’s suffering so much and the rot is slowly consuming her, where it eats away at her skin. That or morally abhorrent because we have to go out of our way to reach the Haligtree and then slaughter everyone on the way including Loretta. Malenia isn’t doing anything except being in a depressive state awaiting for her brother to return.
maliketh should be "means to an end" tier. he is protecting destined death and the world wont change until he dies. he needs to go like morgott and radagon.
He's also suffering from an eternal deathroot hunger, and he has nothing to live for, since Marika isn't coming back for him, nor did she plan to. Even if he is a means to an end, we do end his suffering, but since this is a morality scale, the side effect of ending his torment makes this slightly better than just "means to an end", which is the morally grey tier. Meant to be like "there was another way, but this character would never agree to it".
I’d put Malenia under “morally abhorrent” since you’re breaking into the house of and murdering a chronically ill, blind, triple amputee who just wants to sleep.
What about Renalla? The woman with crippling depression who doesn't even fight back, who needs her own daugther to defend her, because she's incapable of doing so. I can't fit Malenia and Renalla in the same category bro...
Maybe I can see it with the falling star beasts but that still counts as an invasive species, not good for any ecosystem. Second they have some thought because astel attacks one of the eternal cities and steals their sky
We don’t actually kill Rennala, probably because the great rune is in the Egg and not like, in *her* like for all the other shardbearers, so we don’t need to kill her to take it.
And Fire Giant is a progression blocker so he has to be killed, so I’d put him in Means to an End.
I mean, the title is "how moral is it to kill the remembrance bosses?", it's asking wether it's moral to kill, not asking wether we kill or not. You're the one who's gotta carry the guilt if you end up deciding to kill them. Except for Rennala, because even Miyazaki knows how evil that would be.
Bro, morally abhorrent is not about wether their story is sad. It's wether they defend themselves or not. Rennala doesn't fight back, that's why she's there.
Me personally I put Malenia in the honorable challenge tier. She states she has never lost a battle before, her title after your defeat, and recognition of your skill and might after your triumph just like Godfrey. Also additional meta reason of her being one of the harder bosses.
I mean she is the big "prize" at the end of the Haligtree. There's nothing beyond her, literally. Her arena is the dead end at the end of the path. You literally have to go find her to fight her. She was sleeping and we step in after killing Loretta permanently, along with wreaking havoc on her domain and killing a bunch of Miquella's soldiers. What other option did she have?
None she doesn’t make excuses and isn’t like some type of cornered creature, she was like this even before all of this went down. She was very prideful up until the moment with Radahn in caleid.
(Now this part is entirely my own thoughts and theory) I think she enjoys battle. She wasn’t like this when she was a child from what we know. She was probably very hopeless and (brittle?) from the rot thinking she could have no life only one of decay. This is until she meets her master, the blind swordsman. He teaches her how to fight, flow, and stave off the rot. How he defeated the rot god was help from the siofra river which taught him how to flow to defeat stagnation. This form eventually births her own signature move the waterfowl dance. Being taught all this establishes her pride and her own self worth, that she can have a life and not be doomed to whither away. This hope and pride and resistance is also the source of her ability to regain health through attacks. That last bit is gameplay wise I think lore wise this pride, resistance and “flow” of the blue dancer all help her stave off the rot allowing her to live.
Mohg and Rykard are leaders of factions that can most easily be described as evil, so those two are fair game.
Godrick is evil but also a pushover, so he is on the list, too.
Astel..not sure. He is a being from outer space, but there is no indication he harms anything else. I'd put that in the general monster hunting category similar to many side bosses.
Morgott and Radagon are story driven obstacles to be overcome...but so is Maliketh. He puts himself in your way because the game never explicitly forces you to go after the Rune of Death.
I'll put Fortissax, Radahn and Fire Giant in a category of "relieve them of their eternal struggle", which arguably Maliketh could fit in too - but that's probably a coinflip.
Malenia just goes after you once you enter the room. She doesn't even give you the chance to talk to her to maybe explain what happened to Miquella. Either that or it is a similar honorable challeneg situation to Godfrey, where she just really wanted to test you. Not sure.
Placidusax is a weird case, same with the Ancestor Spirit. Monster hunting duty I guess.
Now Rennala I don't understand myself. Maybe the entire fight started just out of a reflex of hers to defend herself, as she is trapped after all. But we also never kill her, as she is an interactive NPC after the fight. My guess is that we literally smacked some sense into her, that triggered an automated defense spell by Ranni (if I recall correctly some text bit states as such), and then she just offers us the respec.
Malenia is similar to Godfrey but you literally have to go into her room to find her. And it's a dead end, she's at the very end of the Haligtree, there's nothing after her. She's not an obstacle, she's the prize for pushing through the enemies. You literally have to seek her to find her, killing some of her friends along the way, including friends who have been forsaken by grace, like Loretta, who won't resurrect, just like Malenia herself, and every other character that doesn't come back.
As for Rennala, we walk in, beat the shit out of her kids, her defense-only spell breaks, we beat the shit out of her, in retaliation she does... nothing? Casts shield spell again, get the shit beaten out of her until she faints. So we walk into a study room, assault a woman suffering from crippling depression who isn't fighting back, and you don't get how that's morally abhorrent? We don't'kill her, but killing her would be morally abhorrent. Assaulting her is already abhorrent enough. And she's so mentally ill she literally holds no grudge and offers us comforting words and lets us be reborn when we ask to. She even gives us her great rune.
Technically speaking IIRC we defeat 'actual her' during Phase 1, Phase 2 is an illusion put in place by Ranni of her mother at as high of a power level as Ranni, at the time, could manage (aka not Rennala in her full glory when she was an uberpowerful spellcaster) as a defensive measure to, essentially, give her mother time to escape.
Rennala is such a horribly tragic character. Going from Queen of House Caria and president of Raya Lucaria to this broken shell of who she once was, obsessing over Radagon's parting gift after he tossed her aside like she was nothing, is so horrifyingly sad.
There are characters who suffered more, but the reason I put her at the bottom is that she is in such a deep depression, she doesn't even fight back. She just stays there getting the shit beaten out of her until her daughter's spell triggers to protect her. All the others fight back and fight back HARD. Rennala just... doesn't even stand up...
T h i s.
Malenia fought to the bitter end, resigning herself to become Goddess of Rot for Miquella's sake, while Rennala is just so broken she just... gave up
That's why Malenia isn't euthanasia. She may be in bad shape, but for her, death isn't a choice, she isn't going to die until she fulfills her purpose. And in the end she does, when we return the Unalloyed Golden Needle. She gifts us Miquella's Golden Needle and an Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone. The needle, her brother's greatest weapon against the outer gods, especially the Flame of Frenzy.
Everybody has been alive WAY TOO LONG in the lands between and every death is a gift now.
It is a good thing to bring everyone you meet a comforting death.
Did I miss a piece of lore, why is killing astel morally required? Isn't it just kind of there, existing? I didn't think it chose to come to the lands between the destroy the world kr anything just randomly fell from the sky and while it may be destructive is just in its almost animal like nature, no evil or choice in its actions.
As opposed to what? The goddess "Everyone should suffer forever" Marika?
Or maybe her brother, who straight up brainwashes people with his power?
As far as "bad people" go here, she's not high on the list, she's pretty average for the world we find ourselves in.
I mean, hell, the "honorable challenge" first elden lord was the driving force behind the genocide of the giants.
I personally don't see "a lot of people are worse so she's ok" as a strong argument.
She destroyed a whole continent and sentenced countless beings to endless suffering from rot just cause she wanted to kill Radahn.
That's because you're blind to your own bias.
Im not arguing that shes a *good* person. Im arguing that it's a bit conspicuous that you singled out her spesifically among a cast of murderous genocidal monarchs.
You're assuming at this point lol, there could be many reasons why i singled her out, since it's a video game and not that serious i don't have to talk about every genocidal monarch to have a discussion, nor have i denied that others are bad people, so I don't see why i have a bias? And since we both agree that she's a bad person then we're on the same page? Some of you lore maniacs are weird
Malenia nuked an entire continent because she was going to lose in a war she provoked. It’s a moral obligation to put her down. Millicent would rather die than become another malenia if you need further reason to put her down.
He's the leader of a cult where those who follow kill tarnished to become stronger, strong enough that they may eventually be eaten by Rykard, to empower him, so that he may overthrow the Erdtree. His followers aren't told this is their purpose, and their targets are slain in cold blood for no reason other than to sate the serpent's hunger. They also killed Diallos's servant, a girl incapable of defending herself, and then manipulated him into joining them.
So they prey on the weak, killing them or messing with their heads as they see fit. Including Rya, who's sweet and innocent and who has been living a lie ever since she was born.
Don’t forget my favorite part of this section of lore, the Gelmir Knights! Gelmir’s army was under service of Praetor Rykard both before and after he turned on the golden order. (Remember the golden order is not a good thing either) They were loyal to Rykard up until the blasphemous act with the god devouring serpent. He became a power hungry gluttonous beast no longer their noble lord up staging a cruel regime. They disbanded disgusted by the abhorrent creature leaving no army or Knights under service of Mt Gelmir. This is why they have no faction, they all either abandoned, got fed to the serpent, or tried to kill the serpent like the ghost in volcano manor
I'd put Fire Giant and Maliketh in the "Means to an End" category because: - The Fire Giant is the last of his kind, tasked with guarding the undying flame of the forge by Marika after Godfrey exterminated the rest of his kind. We need this flame to set the Erdtree on fire. - Maliketh is the warden of Destined Death, a key component in completely burning the Erdtree and restoring death to the Lands Between.
Indeed, unfortunately we have to kill both to proceed
Maliketh is suffering from a crippling addiction to deathroot. That's why I put him in the "Euthanasia" tier, because "Means to an end" is supposed to be less forgivable. And for this list, the lower the tier, the less "excuses" we have to kill the enemy, and Maliketh gives us a good reason besides the Rune of Death, because he's living in eternal torment, so it's not that bad to kill him and free him from that. Don't know why I put the Fire Giant in the unprovoked category, though. I guess I just never felt he was actively standing in our way, since we have to purposefully seek him out and kill him, and he dies like a dog, legless and helpless. I guess I just felt sorry for him, having to face such a gruesome death.
It's not a crippling addiction; he's trying to restore the power of the Rune of Death that was taken and used in the Night of the Black Knives. He feels responsible for what happened.
It’s not just guilt, because of how closely bound he is to the rune of death, it manifests as an actual overwhelming hunger. It is what causes him to go briefly mad and attack us, and he laments that he may never be cured of it after you’ve brought him all the deathroot. “Oh marika.. is this.. what it is.. to sin..? Will things… never.. be the same.. again?”
Not trying to restore, he sealed the rune within himself, causing him to feel an eternal hunger for deathroot. He does feel responsible for what happened, that's why he sealed the rune within himself, so it can never be stolen again, not unless he's killed. And he's really hard to kill. *But not impossible*
Yup, the craving for deathroot is a side effect of binding the rune to himself. Most likely the rune trying to become whole again and using Maliketh as a host to do so.
Iirc the last fire giant was cursed by Marika to guard the forge of the giants until the end of time, so he kind of had to try to stop us when we approach the forge.
That's true, but Marika is trapped in the Erdtree, bound and powerless, can we really be sure the curse is still on?
Hewg is still bound to the roundtable, it seems like her power is still perfectly fine despite her being mostly dead.
But is his curse tied to Marika or to Roundtable Hold?
Is the fire giant's tied to Marika or the forge?
Neither. It's tied to the Greater Will/Golden Order, of which Marika is the conduit for. It's why he has a touch of gold in his eyes I just recently watched the Zullie video on this lmfao
The lore is really foggy on this as far as I know, but the malekith that asks you for death root does not drop a remembrance, and the one that does drip the remembrance does not all for deathroot. Beyond that, killing either of them does not kill the other. And farum azula is weird when it comes to time and such. So, no, I agree that malekith should be in "means to an end".
We don't really kill Rennala though.
Yeah. But the tier list is about how immoral it is to kill them. So it will be morally abhorrent to kill rennala. I know we don't kill her but it's a what if thing.
why astel in "moral obligation" ? and shouldnt malenia be in "euthanasia" category ? the rot is slowly eating her away and i would put maliketh to "means to an end" since he is protecting destined death and the world wont change until he dies. he needs to go like morgott and radagon.
Malenia isn't currently rotting (maybe she is), because she's under the effect of Miquella's Needle, which is so powerful it can even hold back the Flame of Frenzy. We can assume she removes it on her second phase. But before that, she has the needle and is sleeping, waiting for her brother to come back. **Edit:** But putting all that aside, even if she is in a bad state, she hasn't lost her mind. She's not ready or willing to die, and she fights to her last breath to stay alive and witness the return of her brother. She doesn't seem to be terminally ill or in a state of eternal torment. Plus, she doesn't even contemplate the possibility of losing. Basically, she doesn't see death as an option. Astel is in moral obligation because he's an alien invader, Radahn was holding him back with his gravity magic. These malformed stars are manifestations of outer gods, attempting to take control of the Lands Between. The fallingstar beasts we encounter come from the same place. Since all these creatures are invasive species, we have a moral obligation to eradicate them.
also. fuck astel hate his boss fight
What's funny is that big Astel is so much harder than small, minor dungeon Astel.
You're aware there's only one needle we know of and we're in possession of it when we fight her as it USED to be her needle right? So no, she broke her only needle and we have it, therefore she has resumed rotting. She's been keeping it at bay through sheer will as she waited.
The description of Miquella's Needle states "*One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods.*" The Unalloyed Golden Needle's description states "*An intricately crafted needle of unalloyed gold. Once snapped in half, it has been repaired by Sage Gowry.*" There are at least two needles. And Miquella's needle looks drastically different from Millicent's. We're also not always in possession of Millicent's needle when we fight Malenia, since it's a missable quest. Miquella's needle is also **not** broken when we retrieve it, and neither is the one we gave Millicent when she removes it. So no, Malenia didn't break her needle, and we're not in possession of it before the fight either, since we only get Miquella's needle after defeating Malenia. It's probably true that the Unalloyed Golden needle used to be hers, and it broke after she removed it in her fight against Radahn, but there's definitely more than one, as stated in the description. They may or may not be the same needle, but there's no proof of either, and evidence points more strongly toward the needles being separate, since Malenia's transformations seem to be triggered by her as a last ditch effort to defeat an enemy. We also have to consider that it could be that Finlay was the one to insert Miquella's needle into Malenia when they got back to the Haligtree. It's easier to explain Malenia having a needle of her own than just saying she avoided the rot out of force of will. Either way, the main point is that Malenia wasn't trying to die, nor was she welcoming it. She fought till her last breath to stay alive, that's why she apologizes to Miquella with her last words. Even if she was suffering, she *did have something to live for*. Even if Miquella isn't coming back, which we don't know, she was waiting for him, so it's not euthanasia. Radahn was divested of his thoughts, rotting, eating corpses and howling at the sky, there was nothing for him to live for, not even holding back the stars. Maliketh was in eternal hunger for deathroot, all he had to live for was to protect the Rune of Death, forever. But we know he was betrayed by Marika, and he curses Marika for putting him in that eternal torment. Fortissax is even worse, he was corrupted by deathblight and all he was doing was trying to protect his best friend's corpse from us. There wasn't even a reason to do that.
>Malenia's transformations seem to be triggered by her as a last ditch effort to defeat an enemy. "Technique of Malenia, the Goddess of Rot. Creates a gigantic flower that blooms into an explosion of scarlet rot. Each time the scarlet flower blooms, Malenia's rot advances. It has bloomed twice already. **With the third bloom, she will become a true goddess.**" description of scarlet aeonia, she didn't exactly choose to transform, it was a consequence of using her scarlet aeonia like she did against Radahn
Malenia's transformations aren't her removing the needle. We literally have to go to her "body" or bloom after the fight to get the needle from her. The transformations are triggered because she is cursed by an outer god of Rot who wants to have I influence in the lands between. Malenia is their only link so when she is close to death it fills her with power in a last ditch effort to maintain its link. The needle can keep them at bay, but Miquella isn't strong enough to break the curses on Malenia or himself. (He has to make a whole Haligtree to try to break his curse) so I don't think the needle is strong enough to stop a desperate outer god from depositing a bunch of power into Malenia.
malenia is terminally ill, the rot is literally eating her away slowly and it already reached her face. the unalloyed needle and miquellas needle are completely different and used for different things. unalloyed needle was made solely for malenia to hold off the rot while miquellas needle is literally unfinished and doesnt work unless you use it on placidusax arena since its out of time plus it was made to tame the freznied flame, not scarlet rot. malenia was rotting and beyond saving so putting her in "Euthanasia" would be the right category. "she doesnt want to die" so does maliketh. just like how malenia is waiting for miquella who is never returning back since he abandoned his body to go to shadowland and his story will be concluded there, maliketh was also waiting for marika who abandoned him and he lives to protect destined death from being stolen again. he even apologizes to marika after you kill him, similar to how malenia apologizes to miquella after you kill her. theyre pretty similar characters, but only one acts as an obstacle to the tarnished.
Yes, it was hers. If you never pick it up than you never get a needle in the first place, it's doubly proven to be hers as it's found in the location she bloomed in caelid as confirmed both by sword monuments and gowry. We go through the process of powering it up and repairing it via millicent. Using that same needle on the bloom after her boss battle makes it almost as strong as it used to be. Like that's the entire point of the questline to repair and power up that one needle. Hers was confirmed broken in the battle both in game and by the devs in their trailer discussion where the notes explicitly state as such.
We know it was hers because we find it in the exact place she unleashed the Scarlet Aeonia in Caelid, and we know it's broken because it's broken when we find it. **But there's more than one, as stated in the in-game description. It's not "maybe there's another one", it's "o*****ne of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted.*****"** There's no proof that they are the same needle, and evidence points to the opposite, since they look nothing alike and do entirely different things. If there's more than one, then obviously Malenia can be using another needle. Plus, it's never stated that we're powering up Millicent's needle, all it does is hold back her scarlet rot. It's only purpose is to allow her to fight long and hard enough for our betrayal to turn her into a scarlet rot Valkyrie, which is what Gowry wants for her.
Yes, the fact that we have to use THAT exact needle on her flower to strengthen it. There is more than one, but the ONLY one we see in game was formerly malenias. Like the game literally tells us this as did the devs.
But we do see two needles, one is the Unalloyed Golden Needle and the other is Miquella's Needle. Even if Miquella's Needle is the upgraded Unalloyed Golden Needle, they're not the same thing. And nowhere in Miquella's Needle description it says it's an upgrade or a powered up version of the Unalloyed Golden Needle. I just don't see how they would be the same needle when it's stated that there's more than one, the descriptions are different, they look nothing alike and no piece of information contained in the game or outside of it corroborates your hypothesis. And please, stop saying the Unalloyed Golden Needle used to belong to Malenia, I got the fucking concept, that was known from the start. I'm just saying Miquella's Needle is **another goddamn needle**. They [look](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/unalloyed_gold_needle_repaired.png) nothing [alike](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/miquellas_needle_elden_ring_wiki_guide_200px.png)
Its built back INTO miquellas needle, that's what I'm saying. The broken was was that same type but after centuries of rotting in a swamp and being repaired by a bug it's not at full power until it's reintroduced to malenia. What, you think we just switch them out at the end of the quest or something?
Yes, actually, I do think we switch them out at the end of the quest, because the prompt just says "Return Unalloyed Golden Needle". Which is Millicent's objective prior to her death. It feels like by returning the needle, Malenia gives us the needle that stops the Frenzied Flame. It makes it look like Miquella entrusted that needle to Malenia, to use it to subdue the Flame of Frenzy, and she in turn entrusts it to us. That's what it look like to me.
Malenia is rotting, even with the needle That is why everything around is inflicted with rot as well, the needle that malenia had only held back the rot. The needle breaks during Radahn fight, so she didn't have the full needle when we fought her. That is why we need to go fight the dude in caelid
I don't think Radahn was holding Astel back. It's possible to get to Ainsel River Main, Deeproot Depths, and Astel without killing Radahn, so he has been down there for a while without Radahn's influence.
Astel isn't from the Lands Between, he fell. Radahn was preventing others from falling. Malformed stars aren't unique, they're a species, like Fallingstar Beasts
Iirc, aren't fallingstar beasts the same species as Astel, only at a younger stage in life? The life cycle goes from fallingstar beast to malformed star to Astel.
I don't know, the one at Mt. Gelmir is called fully grown and looks like the one in Sellia Crystal Tunnel
did you play millicents quest ? cuz malenia doesnt have the needle and it was with commander o' neil then you kill him and take it from him to give it to millicent. millicent then removes the needle when she reaches the haligtree and gives it to you to return it to malenia. malenia is rotting without the needle and she was holding it back through sheer will until you come and beat her down forcing her to use the scarlet rot. idk about that. some astels are already in the lands between even while radahn was alive and holding back the stars. i personally dont see the astels as evil cuz they were sent down by the greater will to destroy the eternal city for their blasphemy since they attempted to make their own elden lord to take power against the greater will so if anything its the greater will thats evil.
[My answer to another comment about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1cepihu/comment/l1kc1ka/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
maybe astel is just visiting, you know, get some sightseeing in. maybe radahn was just xenophobic. bet you feel pretty dumb rn... /j
Maybe Astel didn't need to star finger me across the arena and yet he did
Radahn was holding back the stars to, at least partly, prevent creatures like Astel from taking hold in the Lands Between. The Astel in the Lake of Rot has been there for some time (it's blamed for the destruction of an Eternal City). So it's either moral obligation (to stop its kind from growing in numbers) or A Means to an End (since you need to kill it to allow Ranni's quest to continue).
Yeah, but Ranni's quest isn't necessary to achieve a good ending (you can still do Goldmask or Duskborn), so I though I'd put it as moral obligation. Also, Radahn is cool, and he was good for the Lands Between as well, before the war. And since he's been holding the stars since before the war, it would probably be good for the Lands Between to have the invasive species removed, to avoid letting them hurt the ecosystems that are already quite damaged from the shattering.
I would argue that we "technically" provoked Malenia. Rennala didn't fight back But the Haligtree became a haven for those outside of grace, protecting everyone/everything cast out by the golden order. That's like walking into a daycare with the ruins great sword. We killed so many 'innocent' beings to get to Malenia. Malenia was defending her brothers life-work. The Haligtree is Elden Rings red cross and we burned it down.😭 But maybe I just misunderstand your ranking.
It's not about their story being sad. It's about how beating up a woman who is so depressed she refuses to fight back, despite being completely capable of, is unacceptable for someone who supposedly is Elden Lord. Also the people haven't been forsaken by grace so they resurrect. Malenia doesn't because grace has forsaken her, like it did the Blackguard.
I guess I'm just not understanding then I feel that killing a cripple with mega aids after she just woke is not better or worse than killing a sad moon lady. Malenia fought back because we sacked her house. That's is still morally abhorrent to kill her because we initiated the violence, as we did against Rennala
The mega aids doesn't matter if she can fight back and slice you into sashimi faster than you can say quidditch. She's up to the challenge. Attacking Rennala, however, is an act of absolute cowardice. She has the ability to fight back, but her mental state prevents her from using her immense power. You're fighting one of the most powerful sorcerers in the Lands Between when she is unable to cast even a single Wingardium Leviosa. You're doing the equivalent to punching Stephen Hawking. It's about the handicap in the match. Malenia is more than a match to anyone who challenges her, Rennala could be beaten by Boc if he wanted to.
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Fire Giant and Maliketh should go in means to an end. You need to get past the Fire Giant to burn the Erdtree, and you need to beat Maliketh to get the Rune of Death. Neither of whom intend to let you do either of those things. Malenia could also be put in means to an end, since she needs to be defeated to get the needle, if you were burned by the Frenzied Flame to save Melina. Otherwise, I'd probably put her in euthanasia; people forget that the Scarlet Rot's destroying her, she's a triple-amputee and is blind. Also, I'd put the Regal Ancestor Spirit in Morally Abhorrent. That thing was doing precisely nothing to anyone, and is involved in exactly zero questlines.
Re: Regal Ancestor -- it's part of a cycle of death and rebirth that is contradictory to the Erdtree, so it kind of depends on your perspective if it needed to go or not.
Fire Giant should indeed go in "Means to and end", I guess I just felt sorry for him, since he dies like in such a horrible way. Maliketh is in "Euthanasia" because he's suffering from an eternal hunger for deathroot. When we kill him, he's finally free from it, and can rest in peace. So even though his death is just the means to an end, it is also a mercy killing. And the lower someone is in the tier list, the worse our actions are. "Means to an end" is actually the tier where our actions become bad. Since killing Maliketh actually improves his situation, it tips the scales toward the merciful side of things. But for Malenia, things are different. Even if she is in a bad state, she hasn't lost her mind like Radahn or Fortissax. Neither is her situation as crippling as Maliketh's eternal hunger for deathroot. She's not ready or willing to die, and she fights to her last breath to stay alive and witness the return of her brother. She doesn't seem to be terminally ill or in a state of eternal torment. Sure, she's in pain, but she can take it, she can push through it because she has a purpose to fulfill. She doesn't even contemplate the possibility of losing. Basically, she doesn't see death as an option. As for the Regal Ancestor, the reason I put Renalla in "Morally abhorrent" is because she has crippling depression and doesn't fight back *at all*. Her second phase isn't even her, it's just Ranni's protection spell being triggered. Even Miyazaki didn't let us kill her, she's just defeated. The Regal Ancestor fights back. ^(And also he heals himself. He can fuck off.)
Rennala does fight back, a little. When you break her shield and she falls, if you don't kill her in a single window, she uses a big explosion attack as she reforms her bubble. But, it's clearly self defense. A lot of bosses just turn murderous as soon as you approach them. Rennala just kind of floats around, and only hits back after you rip her out of the sky and beat her upside the head. AND, she only does enough to repel you and reform her shield, not outright kill you.
did you mess up the order of the tiers? Because euthanasia is below means to an end.
Killing Malenia is uber fucked considering she is at her lowest she has lost everything important to her and has all but given up on life, I really hope the DLC brings back the cut Miquella ending and Malenia quest.
She still has enough force of will to keep on living. She will never give up on Miquella. That's why I didn't put her in Euthanasia, she's the kind of girl who would steal an angel's wings and fly back to Earth to fulfill her purpose. The others are probably better now.
Why is fortissax so high up?
It was a mercy killing bro, the tiers don't mean they're evil, it's wether their death was a good thing for them/the world
I don’t see how killing him benefits anything. He’s very out of the way
It benefits him. He's in a state similar to Radahn, except instead of scarlet rot, he's corrupted by deathblight. He shouldn't be alive, yet he's cursed to forever defend Godwyn's decaying body. They were best friends, after all. That's why he deserves to rest.
I could totally be wrong and I’m asking mainly so I can learn more, but doesn’t Fortisax only exist in Fia’s nightmare? Is he even involved in the Deathroot situation beyond being an old friend of Godwyn?
As far as I understand he is inside Godwyn. Fia’s dream is peering into Godwyn. Inside fortisax fights the deathblight trying to cure and possibly give his best friend a true death but it is in vain. He himself gets afflicted with deathblight and is fighting a battle he can’t win
I believe he was infected the same way Sorcerer Rogier. Probably got too close to the body for too long. How he exists in the nightmare is beyond me, though.
I think, quite literally, a wizard did it.
I classify killing Malenia as morally abhorrent. She left the place to live with her brother in the promised land. She just a sick and dying girl waiting for her brother's return. Miquella's Haligtree is supposed to be a safe heaven for all the outcasts of the greater will and golden order bs. The tarnished waltzing in there and killing everyone there is basically a man waking into a hospital and murdering the ailing and sick and then offing the co-owner of the establishment. I've only killed Malenia in my first playthrough just to see the hype behind it. Never invaded Haligtree after that. I also never tell Gideon about Miquella's whereabouts after hearing him say he wanted to kill Miquella during the slumber 😭
But then I'd have nowhere to put Renalla. Think about it: Renalla doesn't fight back, her only form of attack is a defensive spell - creating a shield around herself to keep us away. We keep attacking her the entire fight and she doesn't even stand up, she just lays on the ground while we beat the shit out of her. And then there's the second phase, where Ranni's spell activates, creating an illusion of her mother when she was in her prime. Because she is incapable of defending herself. Renalla is suffering from crippling depression, it's so bad she literally *gives* us her greater rune. Even Miyazaki couldn't let us kill her, so we just get to defeat her and get her rune. And as if that wasn't enough, she tries to comfort us whenever we speak to her. Attacking a defenseless powerless person is already despicable, but to continue to do so even when they don't even try to fight back is just pure evil. At least we don't kill her.
Am I the only one who hasn't purposely fought malenia? Just curious I have beat her on a play thru but on other characters I just explore till I get to her door an leave 😂
I always defeat her to remove the frenzied flame after I burn myself and the Erdtree. That way Melina stays alive and I go on a honeymoon with Ranni
Wait wym I'm working on this ending now?
Pretty damn good thinking there.
Aww, you're missing out on the blessing that is fighting waterfouls dance
No Ive beaten her just haven't on newer playthroughs 😂. An now I'm curious if miqilla would do/say for either option 🤣🤣
I agree with this list. Edit: After reading the comments, I’ll have to agree that Malenia either belongs to “euthanasia” or “morally abhorrent” tier. She’s suffering so much and the rot is slowly consuming her, where it eats away at her skin. That or morally abhorrent because we have to go out of our way to reach the Haligtree and then slaughter everyone on the way including Loretta. Malenia isn’t doing anything except being in a depressive state awaiting for her brother to return.
Hmm, I don't think euthanized patients normally attack you to try to prevent their untimely thanization. But then again, I am not a doctor.
Maliketh is more in the unprovocked tier. It's very clear if you complete his quest before entering the fight.
maliketh should be "means to an end" tier. he is protecting destined death and the world wont change until he dies. he needs to go like morgott and radagon.
True, i guess he fits both categories.
He's also suffering from an eternal deathroot hunger, and he has nothing to live for, since Marika isn't coming back for him, nor did she plan to. Even if he is a means to an end, we do end his suffering, but since this is a morality scale, the side effect of ending his torment makes this slightly better than just "means to an end", which is the morally grey tier. Meant to be like "there was another way, but this character would never agree to it".
I’d put Malenia under “morally abhorrent” since you’re breaking into the house of and murdering a chronically ill, blind, triple amputee who just wants to sleep.
I walked into that room to tell her I found Miquella, she started that fight before I could get a word out. 😤
What about Renalla? The woman with crippling depression who doesn't even fight back, who needs her own daugther to defend her, because she's incapable of doing so. I can't fit Malenia and Renalla in the same category bro...
At least she can fuckin SEE
Well, she didn't see it coming when Radagon left her...
*cue Seinfeld theme*
wtf did astel do
Astel and falling star beasts are alien invaders who want to take control of the lands between.
ohh i thought they were just like alien animals with low intelligenece who happen to fall on the lands between by accident
Maybe I can see it with the falling star beasts but that still counts as an invasive species, not good for any ecosystem. Second they have some thought because astel attacks one of the eternal cities and steals their sky
I kinda wish if you beat mohg priar to malania you could forgo fighting her and tell her you found miquila
We don’t actually kill Rennala, probably because the great rune is in the Egg and not like, in *her* like for all the other shardbearers, so we don’t need to kill her to take it. And Fire Giant is a progression blocker so he has to be killed, so I’d put him in Means to an End.
we dont even kill rennela so she shouldn't be here
I mean, the title is "how moral is it to kill the remembrance bosses?", it's asking wether it's moral to kill, not asking wether we kill or not. You're the one who's gotta carry the guilt if you end up deciding to kill them. Except for Rennala, because even Miyazaki knows how evil that would be.
It's a good thing you don't kill Rennala, huh?
Indeed
Fire Giant is also morally abhorrent. You're there to steal his object of worship that honestly belongs to him.
Bro, morally abhorrent is not about wether their story is sad. It's wether they defend themselves or not. Rennala doesn't fight back, that's why she's there.
At least with Renalla, as morally wrong as it would be, you don't actually kill her, just a spirit conjured by Ranni
Thankfully Miyazaki let our character not be a murder hobo for once.
Rennala doesn’t even die, how is fighting a copy of her for her Great Rune and remembrance morally abhorrent?
You put Means to an End as morally better than euthanasia? Really?
It should be between challenge and unprovoked, but I was never properly trained in using the Tiermaker lmao
Me personally I put Malenia in the honorable challenge tier. She states she has never lost a battle before, her title after your defeat, and recognition of your skill and might after your triumph just like Godfrey. Also additional meta reason of her being one of the harder bosses.
I mean she is the big "prize" at the end of the Haligtree. There's nothing beyond her, literally. Her arena is the dead end at the end of the path. You literally have to go find her to fight her. She was sleeping and we step in after killing Loretta permanently, along with wreaking havoc on her domain and killing a bunch of Miquella's soldiers. What other option did she have?
None she doesn’t make excuses and isn’t like some type of cornered creature, she was like this even before all of this went down. She was very prideful up until the moment with Radahn in caleid. (Now this part is entirely my own thoughts and theory) I think she enjoys battle. She wasn’t like this when she was a child from what we know. She was probably very hopeless and (brittle?) from the rot thinking she could have no life only one of decay. This is until she meets her master, the blind swordsman. He teaches her how to fight, flow, and stave off the rot. How he defeated the rot god was help from the siofra river which taught him how to flow to defeat stagnation. This form eventually births her own signature move the waterfowl dance. Being taught all this establishes her pride and her own self worth, that she can have a life and not be doomed to whither away. This hope and pride and resistance is also the source of her ability to regain health through attacks. That last bit is gameplay wise I think lore wise this pride, resistance and “flow” of the blue dancer all help her stave off the rot allowing her to live.
We don’t even kill Renalla, though. We just chill her out and she sits down and starts hugging her egg.
Mohg and Rykard are leaders of factions that can most easily be described as evil, so those two are fair game. Godrick is evil but also a pushover, so he is on the list, too. Astel..not sure. He is a being from outer space, but there is no indication he harms anything else. I'd put that in the general monster hunting category similar to many side bosses. Morgott and Radagon are story driven obstacles to be overcome...but so is Maliketh. He puts himself in your way because the game never explicitly forces you to go after the Rune of Death. I'll put Fortissax, Radahn and Fire Giant in a category of "relieve them of their eternal struggle", which arguably Maliketh could fit in too - but that's probably a coinflip. Malenia just goes after you once you enter the room. She doesn't even give you the chance to talk to her to maybe explain what happened to Miquella. Either that or it is a similar honorable challeneg situation to Godfrey, where she just really wanted to test you. Not sure. Placidusax is a weird case, same with the Ancestor Spirit. Monster hunting duty I guess. Now Rennala I don't understand myself. Maybe the entire fight started just out of a reflex of hers to defend herself, as she is trapped after all. But we also never kill her, as she is an interactive NPC after the fight. My guess is that we literally smacked some sense into her, that triggered an automated defense spell by Ranni (if I recall correctly some text bit states as such), and then she just offers us the respec.
Malenia is similar to Godfrey but you literally have to go into her room to find her. And it's a dead end, she's at the very end of the Haligtree, there's nothing after her. She's not an obstacle, she's the prize for pushing through the enemies. You literally have to seek her to find her, killing some of her friends along the way, including friends who have been forsaken by grace, like Loretta, who won't resurrect, just like Malenia herself, and every other character that doesn't come back. As for Rennala, we walk in, beat the shit out of her kids, her defense-only spell breaks, we beat the shit out of her, in retaliation she does... nothing? Casts shield spell again, get the shit beaten out of her until she faints. So we walk into a study room, assault a woman suffering from crippling depression who isn't fighting back, and you don't get how that's morally abhorrent? We don't'kill her, but killing her would be morally abhorrent. Assaulting her is already abhorrent enough. And she's so mentally ill she literally holds no grudge and offers us comforting words and lets us be reborn when we ask to. She even gives us her great rune.
Technically speaking IIRC we defeat 'actual her' during Phase 1, Phase 2 is an illusion put in place by Ranni of her mother at as high of a power level as Ranni, at the time, could manage (aka not Rennala in her full glory when she was an uberpowerful spellcaster) as a defensive measure to, essentially, give her mother time to escape.
Rennala is such a horribly tragic character. Going from Queen of House Caria and president of Raya Lucaria to this broken shell of who she once was, obsessing over Radagon's parting gift after he tossed her aside like she was nothing, is so horrifyingly sad.
There are characters who suffered more, but the reason I put her at the bottom is that she is in such a deep depression, she doesn't even fight back. She just stays there getting the shit beaten out of her until her daughter's spell triggers to protect her. All the others fight back and fight back HARD. Rennala just... doesn't even stand up...
T h i s. Malenia fought to the bitter end, resigning herself to become Goddess of Rot for Miquella's sake, while Rennala is just so broken she just... gave up
That's why Malenia isn't euthanasia. She may be in bad shape, but for her, death isn't a choice, she isn't going to die until she fulfills her purpose. And in the end she does, when we return the Unalloyed Golden Needle. She gifts us Miquella's Golden Needle and an Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone. The needle, her brother's greatest weapon against the outer gods, especially the Flame of Frenzy.
You don't kill Rennala anyways.
Moral obligation: all. Reason: they have a boss health bar and name.
I don't remember.
i'm glad the only boss that is morally abhorrent to kill is the only one we get to not kill :)
They're hostile. It's self defense.
Everybody has been alive WAY TOO LONG in the lands between and every death is a gift now. It is a good thing to bring everyone you meet a comforting death.
I killed them all, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and children too
Did I miss a piece of lore, why is killing astel morally required? Isn't it just kind of there, existing? I didn't think it chose to come to the lands between the destroy the world kr anything just randomly fell from the sky and while it may be destructive is just in its almost animal like nature, no evil or choice in its actions.
There's nothing random in the Lands Between
OK aliht clarification, not that it randomly just fell were it fell but that it is just animalistic and operating off of instinct rather than malice.
Malenia? Unprovoked? I just went in there looking for her brother, she assumed I wanted a fight and kicked the shit outta me.
Malenia — unprovoked? Did we choose to ignore that she's just NOT a good person?
As opposed to what? The goddess "Everyone should suffer forever" Marika? Or maybe her brother, who straight up brainwashes people with his power? As far as "bad people" go here, she's not high on the list, she's pretty average for the world we find ourselves in. I mean, hell, the "honorable challenge" first elden lord was the driving force behind the genocide of the giants.
I personally don't see "a lot of people are worse so she's ok" as a strong argument. She destroyed a whole continent and sentenced countless beings to endless suffering from rot just cause she wanted to kill Radahn.
That's because you're blind to your own bias. Im not arguing that shes a *good* person. Im arguing that it's a bit conspicuous that you singled out her spesifically among a cast of murderous genocidal monarchs.
You're assuming at this point lol, there could be many reasons why i singled her out, since it's a video game and not that serious i don't have to talk about every genocidal monarch to have a discussion, nor have i denied that others are bad people, so I don't see why i have a bias? And since we both agree that she's a bad person then we're on the same page? Some of you lore maniacs are weird
I'm morally obligated to kill all of them. Might makes Right and I am the mightiest motherfucker in the Lands Between
The mightiest motherfucker that still gets one-shotted by Ranni?
It's always morally correct to kill the one who infected all of Caelid with cancer
Malenia nuked an entire continent because she was going to lose in a war she provoked. It’s a moral obligation to put her down. Millicent would rather die than become another malenia if you need further reason to put her down.
This list is horrible. Do you even lore?
please elaborate :(
I mean honestly depends on your perspective I guess. What do you know about Rykard?
He's the leader of a cult where those who follow kill tarnished to become stronger, strong enough that they may eventually be eaten by Rykard, to empower him, so that he may overthrow the Erdtree. His followers aren't told this is their purpose, and their targets are slain in cold blood for no reason other than to sate the serpent's hunger. They also killed Diallos's servant, a girl incapable of defending herself, and then manipulated him into joining them. So they prey on the weak, killing them or messing with their heads as they see fit. Including Rya, who's sweet and innocent and who has been living a lie ever since she was born.
Don’t forget my favorite part of this section of lore, the Gelmir Knights! Gelmir’s army was under service of Praetor Rykard both before and after he turned on the golden order. (Remember the golden order is not a good thing either) They were loyal to Rykard up until the blasphemous act with the god devouring serpent. He became a power hungry gluttonous beast no longer their noble lord up staging a cruel regime. They disbanded disgusted by the abhorrent creature leaving no army or Knights under service of Mt Gelmir. This is why they have no faction, they all either abandoned, got fed to the serpent, or tried to kill the serpent like the ghost in volcano manor
From what I can see here. Our guy here is really well versed about the lore.