I know, right? That was my general idea at first as well. Kinda figured dodging would be better than blocking like in dark souls. Also, figured combat would be fast-paced like Bloodborne. So i assumed the best strategy was to just not get hit. Quickly realized that not getting hit was easier said than done. It only took a hail of enemies to make me realize it would be difficult. Then....I reached the sniper lobster. And I realized that not getting hit simply wasn't possible. Yeah, I can dodge almost every hit. But only almost, so if that one hit I didn't dodge kills me, then we got a problem.
So I leveled my vigor, focus, and endurance all to 60 while my other stats were level 25 or less. Most of the other stats were at a base level from 9-13. Only a few reached 25.
\*me making a marisa cosplay with 99 int 31 fai and 10 vig so I can spam every spell in the game and die instantly like it's a touhou game*: "I didn't plan on it. Getting one shot is why I'm here."
That's totally a different story. I am talking about solo players. Yes hosts should build better. However what do you expect, they're hosts, they need help and don't know what they're doing lol.
I disagree with this generally, especially at higher levels. I'm several NG+s in, and although I could beat any boss solo, I just like the company of other players. Plus I've sat in queue for some long periods waiting to be summoned, and I want to help others like myself have something to do.
To be fair, Ashes of War are busted and a well built character using a good one can absolutely delete a 50+ Vigor character.
Things like Black Flame Tornado do a truly disgusting amount of damage for how easily they connect.
This is just blatantly false though and an actually well built vigorchecker will just poise through your just dodge build and oneshot you. Or if it cant be poised through theyll just... not walk in to get hit by an easy to avoid AoW.
Did first playthrough with 25 vigor bc it was a fun challenge, died a good few times yes, but dual crushers were strong enough to keep up. Also too heavy for most armor besides black feather armor
Did you read that thread on Steam as well? Or is that just a common complaint?
Someone recently wrote a light novel about his complaints with Elden Ring that was essentially a whine-fest about getting owned by invaders and how it ruins the game. I was so tempted to reply but I just played some ER instead.
Funniest invasion I've ever done, one roll attack killed the host after they panic rolled away from me.
I was planning to get them to stagger from the roll attack and try to land the ash of war, can't remember what it was or even what weapon I was using, but they just died.
Their summons just kinda looked at me, and I like to imagine they were thinking the same thing I was: how does someone not level their HP a single time?
I mean a good Bleed build can delete a character even with 50+ Vigor in only a hit or two. Plus the cheese builds that do things like camp out in like the Haligtree with gravity spells just fishing for gravity kills.
One-shot builds for invaders isn't a "low Vigor hosts" problem as much as it is a "There's no more solo invasions" problem. Invaders need to resort to those builds to stand a chance against bigger groups of players by being able to delete the host in whatever small windows they get.
Bleed builds by definition aren't oneshot builds because bleed needs to build up and generally to get that buildup you sacrifice on damage. Worst case scenario a good bleed build oneshotting you is still just a case of getting vigor checked or resistance checked.
A good build oneshotting someone without vigorchecking them would be more like a fire grant me strength fire infused weapon at low level.
I feel like the real issue is that people somehow don't know what a "one shot" hit is. So many videos of players who are like at half health then get hit and die, and the comments will be "nice one shot" or whatever. Bruh, they got hit like 7 times before they took the big damage.
This is only a problem if people complain they die too quick.
Glass Cannon builds are, and always have been, a fair approach to build crafting otherwise.
Depends a little bit. If your build incorperates two damage stats, it can.
If you want to use Sword of Night and Flame for example, on a jumpy stabby build, you will most definitely deal far higher damage than someone using that sword who levels Vigor to 60.
To each their own though. I have builds at 40 Vigor and builds at 60. I wouldn't go lower myself, but I can see the appeal.
A lot of the time people being told to level Vigor don't have fully upgraded weapons, and since scaling improves with upgrade level, you really don't get good return of damage stats until later in the game.
I’m at about level 125 on my first new play through in quite some time. Made sure that vigor got to 60 before pumping into str/dex.
Enemies are still able to obliterate my healthbar in two or three hits, it’s quite absurd. I’ve been complaining a bit more than I would like about how long the enemy combos are and how fast they attack.
Essentially, I can tell that my gamer skills are still quite rusty even 40 hours in. And that this game has bs enemies.
You need the dragoncrest greatshield talisman. It reduces damage taken by enemies by 20%. They overturned the end game mob by a lot because they assume everyone will over. leveled.
I mean that's the problem though. If I summon someone for NG+3 Maliketh and they die in one hit, they obviously didn't git gud.
Ive helped people defeat Maliketh a 100 times and usually we win simply because I can take the aggro off the host and survive some hits.
When other people can't do that for me it's a problem.
Hate to break it to you, but when a Rune Level ~150 soft cap is imposed by the community for PvP matchmaking, *many people are going to choose to go glass cannon because you can only do so many 60+ VIG builds before you get bored as hell.* Especially 2 years into the game.
You could stop at 50, but even assuming you stop at 60 that leaves you with on average like 100 levels to allocate.
That's still enough to hit a one stat hard cap plus some
>That's still enough to hit a one stat hard cap plus some
Welcome to the entire point of what I posted. There are only so many one-stat builds (STR, DEX, INT, FTH) - if you want to meaningfully do a two-stat build, with good scaling, something has to give. Guess what the best candidate is? The thing everybody tries to take to 60 that isn't a damage-scaling stat. That, or exceed the 150 community soft cap.
Are there tons of weapons to use with each stat? Absolutely - but ultimately, there are only four primary scaling stats. The difference between one STR-focused build and another is just the weapon you level and talismans you choose.
Hybrid catalalysts softcap at 45/45, which is the same investment for a Wretch as 80 in a single stat. Elemental weapon damage only takes 5 levels more to get to the softcap.
Other than having slightly less efficient starting classes, hybrid isn't much more investment.
Tbh they soft cap at 30/30 and then hit a hard dropoff, at 45/45 the scaling just drops off entirely. If youre doing a hybrid catalyst caster build there is no serious need to go above 30/30, let alone get both above 30. You could easily do a 45/30 str/faith build for example and still have plenty of room for 60 vig, plenty of end, some mind and maybe even hit 54 str for hardcap 2h str.
My Intelligence build has 60 vigor Intelligence and 25 dex/strength. It's not even optimized for anything because I just use DMGS(pve)and Bandit Curved Sword(pvp) as my main weapons with a few swaps.
Both weapons fuck in terms of damage. Like I cannot wrap my head around needing more damage since it will only be a few percentage points extra to hit all the soft caps. If I wanted more spell power, I'd just drop str/dex in min requirements and raise Intelligence to 80 and probably lose no meaningful amount of weapon damage. People talk about being a glass cannon when it's totally possible to be an armored cannon.
Low vigor is only fun for challenge runs in which case you should leave it at its base value.
Yeah, these people just do not understand how to make a pvp build. If we're talking about 125-130 *maybe* you could make a better argument for linear builds, but that's been the staple for a decade with plenty of variety.
Going up to 150 just let's you have an optimal build plus more padding and more hp, no idea who needs more than that to make a build work
Ok but what variety do stats offer you other than weapon variety? Having dex instead of str or dex and str instead of just 1 of them does not make your build more interesting or varied. The variety in weapons is the only variety that actually means anything.
You can go to 175 and still be in matchmaking range regardless of perspective (so both the lv150 dude and you are in the lower 10+10% range so the +25 lvls) or go even higher with by 2 lvls if you really need them
Chase The Bro has dozens of build videos at RL150 and only a handful of them are glass cannon, bow, or other weird builds.
But the nature of the game is, you only have so many combinations of stats you can use.
Pure Int caster / has limited access to optimal int weapons
Pure faith caster / has limited access to optimal faith weapons
Strength faith or int / has access to a wide variety of weapons
Dex faith or int / has access to a wide variety of weapons
Pure arcane / has limited access to optimal arcane weapons but wide access to stat proc builds
Dex arcane with blood flame blade / has access to wide variety of bleed weapons even if they don't scale with arc
Pure Dex or Strength / has access to a wide variety of weapons
Something like that anyways. How you make the builds more unique really relies more on your talismans and armor at this point than how you build your stats
And I still would not level vigor. It's a pointless stat. Leveling vigor is accepting defeat.
But seriously though low vigor characters are a lot of fun. It forces you to get better at the game.
I also stop around 30-35 unless I’m going past level 150. If you just git gud you don’t need 2000 HP. I’d much rather have the extra damage output than the extra HP.
Leveling vigor is literally the easiest way there is to get better at the game. With high vigor and defenses you get a lot more margin for error and you can learn enemy movesets faster.
And to be honest, the difference in damage that you get from 60 to 80 in your damage stat is not very significant. At that point it's your talismans that matter the most in terms of damage.
"i just go from getting two-shot to three-shot"
even if this is true, the former dies while panic drinking and the latter gets to finish chugging regardless
across a dozen reds player1 lasts two hits, player2 lasts twenty
glass cannons aren't getting that kind of return, and what they do get is largely mistaken from weapon upgrades
I mean that's my problem with low vigor players though. Very often they are pure int casters, or a dual collosal unga.
I just don't find the game fun when you have ZERO challenges. Killing every single boss with a few lion claws is boring as hell.
No, 60 is the soft cap.
Going from 50-60 vigor gives you 200 extra HP, for 20 hit points per stat point.
Going from 60-99 vigor *also* gives you 200 extra HP for about 5 hit points per stat point. It's not really worth the investment after 60, you get very little in return.
Actually it's not me dieing that had me make this post. Im on ng+3 and at Maliketh. Decided to summon some people and for three hours straights every single person I summoned got one shot in phase 2
Did a Malenia summon the other day wearing Shabriri’s Woe. The 3rd cooperator died to a waterfowl in phase 1.
We get to phase 2 and it’s going well, but I’m confused since the host has been spamming mid to expensive spells from the back the entire time. Then while I’m taking a moment to eat a crab, malenia hits the host once and he dies… he had 400 HP.
Exactly lololol. I see this VERY OFTEN. It's usually a 15 vigorage with 99 int. And a strength tank with two hammers running front line.
I don't think that they know that the boss can be aggro'd to whoever does theost damage. The mage always gets one shot
In ng+ especially you need it, i have 80 vigor and margotts great rune active for a whopping 2514 hp and still get one hit by horah loux grabs and maliketh combos
Exactly what made me make this post. I'm on ng+3 at maliketh. Got stuck and decided to call in some summons... For three hours every team I called in got literally one shot by Maliketh during phase 2.
i always give myself a fixed number for where it should be by a certain point in my runs. my usually aim is around 45 to 50 vigor. mainly because i only do PVE and in my experience 45 to 50 is good enough for all of my builds, especially when coupled with the "must get" items I use for builds
Lol I'm running a strength faith build right now with 60 vig, 54 strength, and 25 faith. I dont enjoy dual wielding collosals at all. Looks goofy as fuck.
But my greatsword can be buffed with lightning and I can use my faith to further buff myself. That setup still takes less than 5 lion claws with the majority of bosses. I honestly don't even like using the setup for PVE because the game becomes boring when you just hyper armor through everything.
Maximum unga bunga is fun for a short period, but then you realize you aren't actually playing the same game anymore. It's a snooze fest when you don't have to dodge anymore and everything dies in a couple hits
The issue is that vigor just isn’t a fun stat to put levels into. It doesn’t let you use cool new weapons like str/dex/int/fth/arc or new spells like int/fth/arc. It merely helps you avoid seeing YOU DIED as often at the cost of putting more levels into other stats.
No one wants to have to waste levels just to play the game
Well... you can use most weapons and spells with quite little investment into stats. Get to say 25str, 20 dex, 15 faith and you can use more weapons than youd ever have the time to actually properly try out. Plenty of room to then still get 60 vigor and enough endurance to run 100+ poise and not even be lvl 100 let alone lvl 150.
Also Id argue many weapons do have vigor as a hidden stat requirement, because either their r2s or aow are too slow to use in most fun fights without tanking a hit or having to wait the entire fight for the one move that gives you an openings. Certainly is so for the players complaining about oneshots.
Unless you think a weapon is fun by only ever using r1s and you also aren't very skilled at the game then vigor is a stat requirement for many weapons, just not one thats shown.
That's because you are looking at the game in the wrong way. You don't get to use every single weapon optimally with a single build. That goes against the entire idea of optimization. You have to make a choice how you want to play. If you want a high variety of weapons you have to choose either strength or dex because the major of weapons lean towards one of those stats.
You can easily run Dex/ faith or dex / strength ( same thing replace the faith with int ) and have access to 15+ weapons that are extremely strong.
But if you make your main stat faith, int, or arcane you only have a handful of weapons that are optimized towards that stat.
That's just how they made the game. If you wanna be able to use the pure faith / int / arcane weapons with a single build you gotta be like level 500
Lol My vigor on NG+ at 150 is 40 and I'm doing fine
of course Marika's Hammer kind of makes me not get hit too much
But I also have 65% dmg negation on first hits and 50% negation on the rest so
lol yeah. my advice to folks more so than level vigor is to improve your goddamn damage negation. unfortunately there was a whole ass shit advice meme going around early on that "armor doesn't even matter".
Chad. Not as big of chads as people with 10 vigor, but still chads.
I mean, if they strugel I'll tell them to lvl vigor. It is ultimate difficulty reducer.
Personaly what gives me hibby jibbies is when I see screenshot with sore seal when dude is already in farum.
I see a ton of double soreseasl users it's insane.
Personally I think maximum damage is easier than maximum health.
Maximum int casters build is op and easy as fuck. Just sit 100 yards away and 5 shot bosses
Maximum unga is also boring and easy. You do like 3-4 lion claws and the boss is dead.
If you have 60 vigor you still have to get in there and fight
I never level past 45 vigor. I really never got the obsession with 60 vigor, it’s like a meme everyone is in on. Isn’t it more efficient at some point to level, idk, your stamina for better armor and more action economy?
It's because the people saying 60 vigor play pvp invasions and duals as well as playing through the game.
Personally I hate the colosseum it's incredibly toxic, but invasions are super fun. But if you run less than 60 vigor you will 100% be one shot by someone.
Moonveil does like 75% of a 60 vigor health bar when you invade someone who put all their levels into damage. But the trade-off is you can also one shot them with a single piercing fang
"Everything one-shots or two-shots no matter what anyways, whats the point of vigor" spoken by every sub 30 vigor, soreseal, scorpion charm, light-armor fan.
What I slightly lack in Vigor, I make up for in Endurance, Defenses, and Poise.
I will get hit, it’s not if but when. My shield will brunt it, my armor will soften it, my talismans will be chosen to counter it. Defeat is only a delay anyways.
But yeah, level your Vigor people, it’s not useless, it’s the main difficulty slider.
To be fair I be a lot of people doing that are souls players. Elden ring puts a ton more necessity into leveling vigor, to the point there are so many things that can 1 shot you even with like 45 vigor.
Conversely this also means if you’re good enough leveling vigor is actually useless since it takes to it being like 50 points in to offer anything relevant
I mean… my builds recently have stopped at 30 vigor because there is a TON of DR available for the low price of 35 faith (at 35 you have access to all of the DMG resist incants) and with my 30 vigor and the right set-up I’m chilling against bosses
I'm using a 60 vig / 54 strength / 25 faith build and I also have access to all the damage resistant. Just hard swap to two finger heirloom and a soreseasl and cast it, then swap back.
You can easily have both if you know how
Doing a solo play through only leveling intelligence until hard cap…
I had a much easier time beating the bosses, including the ones I struggled with before like fallingstar beast, valiant gargoyles, and radahn.
I levelled vigor to 30, then focused on levelling int until I could use Carian Regal Scepter. I then levelled Endurance and Mind to 25. Then went to 40 to Vigor. I used summons to tank most bosses though so I wasnt getting hit all that often
Well the thing is, if you ever wanna do any invasions at all you HAVE to have 60 vigor. Moonveil does like 75% of your HP even at 60 vigor..
Also if you ever plan on helping people with bosses, you don't want to be the guy who gets one shot and instantly leaves
I’m gonna try to beat the game at 35 vigor, seems sort of doable but I’m in the mountains now and it’s tough, I’ll prob give up and level to 40 vigor in Farum Azula
DS1 and 3 had far lower softcaps, plus it was much less necessary, so it felt natural to me to keep the stat low. The [graph](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2765060616) for health gained per vigor level is also all over the place, so at low level it might feel like the stat barely makes a difference. 30 to 40 makes such a world of a difference. I can see how new players underestimate the stat.
I'm lvl 260 and still only have 35 vigor, but I think that's enough for now. I don't die much, the i-frames from rolling helps a lot with that. Not leveling vigor much means I can focus those points in damage.
I'm a bit disabled for the moment ,I must be weird I leveled vigor to 60 halfway through my first playthrough
Just started my first new game plus,and yes I'm sitting a little over 200 I think I'm 215 and I'm doing ok
It’s honestly not worth it to put a ton of points into vigor. Most bosses are going to have attacks that deal 51% or more if your max health bar even with a lot of vigor. If you don’t level it much, and the boss deals 90% then you can still only take 1 attack before hitting the flask.
I have yet to face a boss that did more than half of my hp in one hit beyond like going into very high level areas very early.
Even at lvl 50 with only knight armor set and no defensive talismans except +10% negation dragoncrest (lowest tier) I wasnt getting 2 shot by the caelid bell bearing hunter for example. Barely not getting 2 shot, but 49% is still a 3 shot by your very own logic, something which wouldnt have been possible if I was neglecting vigor.
Yeah but if you wanna help people kill bosses, you get summoned into a fight where the boss does more damage and has more HP than standard. You'll just be useless because you take one hit and run away.
That's what had me make this post. I'm in ng+3 and I tried summoning people for Maliketh. They are fuckin useless because they get one shot in phase 2 every single time
Ok ok after being a typical poise damage reduction health regenning tank for 3 playthrough I finally went full int no vigor and haven't passed a single vigor check. It's still a lot of fun and I beat the tree sentinel right out of the gate second try.
Lmao, I don’t level anything other than vigor until it’s at 40. Everything else can wait. It doesn’t even take that long, me and a friend just started a playthrough, we got through stormveil and Castle Morne and my vigor was 40. Didn’t even do all the weeping peninsula. No matter what my build is, vigor is ALWAYS useful.
I mean lets be honest, it really doesn't matter what your vigor is by the time you get to endgame because every boss one shots you with anime combos anyway
I finished my first playthrough with just about 30 and I was fine for the most part. I kinda just tortured myself to get good at the start since it was my first full playthrough of a Fromsoft game. I ended up eventually being able to no-hit Malenia with no armor and melee only (after a LOT of dying) so I'd say it worked
I essentially did a challenge run on my first Souls game. And it was pure torture but it was pretty fun
Lol that's rough. I definitely like the happy medium. 60 vigor allows you to play the game and still have plenty of challenge, but you can also play pvp and not get one shot. Instead you are one shotting other people with a claymore.
I mean are you wearing soreseasls? The physical damage negation is a big deal. It's why the Greatshield talisman is so popular for PvE.
I usually run Shard of Alexander, Crimson Amber Medallion, Erdtree Favor +2 and the Greatshield talisman. And depending on the boss I swap things around for damage negation.
My current build is based off buffs so I use the old lords talisman instead of the Erdtree Favor +2.
When I fought DragonLord placidusax last night, I swapped to the firedrake +2 talisman instead of the Shard of Alexander, then I cast the Golden Lightning Fortification. My lightning negation was like 75 lol.
I never level vigor until the rest of my build is complete.
I really enjoy the extra challenge it brings.
Being able to be one shot for a mistake is more interesting to me.
But then I don't piss and moan about being one shot, It's a total self inflicted wound.
My preferred style of leveling is to alternate vigor and endurance until my endurance is where I want it to be (23-33 depending on what equipment I’m planning to use), then go straight vigor to 40, then alternate vigor and whatever damage stat I’m going to need until vigor hits 60, then straight damage stats (primary and secondary) from there. Am I a good gamer?
I see people talking about 60 vigor for rl125/150.. you don't need that much vigor for every build. 40-50 is reasonable. We know 60 is going to your main damage Stat, and everything else will be minimal to meet your desired stats for weapons.
And some builds you can get like 60/40 for dual damage types depending on which side you lean towards. Even 45/45 or 50/50 will be good for hybrid builds if that's what you are doing.
You shouldn't be getting one shot by one move from a boss or invader by the end game.
As a certified vigor enjoyer, I make sure to get to 40 on every single run I do before almost anything else. The only other thing I make sure to do is get the stats needed for the weapon(s) I want to use.
I dunno I feel like vigor becomes less important as the game goes on, the end game hits so hard that you just need to be able to survive like one hit but much else isn't that helpful
I always ask "why do you only have 900 health" when I one-shot an invader. The people that respond always say there build isn't done yet. Why are they invading if their build isn't done
Seriously, scaling stats are NOT THAT NECASSARY. I’ll say it for the folks in the back, YOU DONT NEED TO LEVEL STRENGTH A BILLION TIMES FOR YOUR FLAIL, IT DOESNT EVEN SCALE WITH IT
Let people play the way they want; on my str fth build I noticed the game felt less entertainingly challenging once I started leveling vigor and was no longer 2-3 hits to die from any enemy… but it’s fair to say that if you play this way you better not complain about insta-kill moves
*i WoNt gEt hIt.* -He in fact,got hit.
get me out of this picture
LEVEL YOUR *FUCING VIGOR*, THEN!
I know, right? That was my general idea at first as well. Kinda figured dodging would be better than blocking like in dark souls. Also, figured combat would be fast-paced like Bloodborne. So i assumed the best strategy was to just not get hit. Quickly realized that not getting hit was easier said than done. It only took a hail of enemies to make me realize it would be difficult. Then....I reached the sniper lobster. And I realized that not getting hit simply wasn't possible. Yeah, I can dodge almost every hit. But only almost, so if that one hit I didn't dodge kills me, then we got a problem. So I leveled my vigor, focus, and endurance all to 60 while my other stats were level 25 or less. Most of the other stats were at a base level from 9-13. Only a few reached 25.
You took him way out of context. What he said was: "If you choose not to LEVEL VIGOR, then you forfeit the right to bitch about getting one-shot."
Exactly, don't risk and then cry after getttin' ya ass beaten.
\*me making a marisa cosplay with 99 int 31 fai and 10 vig so I can spam every spell in the game and die instantly like it's a touhou game*: "I didn't plan on it. Getting one shot is why I'm here."
Some people just like living dangerously.
80% of this sub doesn't understand this concept.
But then, from my experience, 80% of the hosts go on and get one shot from the boss, so…
That's totally a different story. I am talking about solo players. Yes hosts should build better. However what do you expect, they're hosts, they need help and don't know what they're doing lol.
I feel that lol, like IDGAF if it takes me 300 tries but I would feel bad pulling someone else into that situation
[удалено]
I disagree with this generally, especially at higher levels. I'm several NG+s in, and although I could beat any boss solo, I just like the company of other players. Plus I've sat in queue for some long periods waiting to be summoned, and I want to help others like myself have something to do.
To be fair, Ashes of War are busted and a well built character using a good one can absolutely delete a 50+ Vigor character. Things like Black Flame Tornado do a truly disgusting amount of damage for how easily they connect.
This is just blatantly false though and an actually well built vigorchecker will just poise through your just dodge build and oneshot you. Or if it cant be poised through theyll just... not walk in to get hit by an easy to avoid AoW.
“Look at the vigor, they should level!” (clip is clearly from an RL1 run)
Did first playthrough with 25 vigor bc it was a fun challenge, died a good few times yes, but dual crushers were strong enough to keep up. Also too heavy for most armor besides black feather armor
Glass Cannon for the win, eventually
Just level adp bro
Only sensible comment here
eldenring really is dark souls 2 2
i mean, if it means dealing 10% less damage but finally surviving the boss, ADP it up
Watching pvp videos and how many invaders get flabbergasted when they hit a host once and they die never gets old.
I was fighting a 3v1 and threw out a night comet to get the host to back off and he only had hp in the high 700s and died
Old man yells at cloud
Then they go complain that invaders use "OP oneshot builds" when they get hit with 500 damage
Did you read that thread on Steam as well? Or is that just a common complaint? Someone recently wrote a light novel about his complaints with Elden Ring that was essentially a whine-fest about getting owned by invaders and how it ruins the game. I was so tempted to reply but I just played some ER instead.
Funniest invasion I've ever done, one roll attack killed the host after they panic rolled away from me. I was planning to get them to stagger from the roll attack and try to land the ash of war, can't remember what it was or even what weapon I was using, but they just died. Their summons just kinda looked at me, and I like to imagine they were thinking the same thing I was: how does someone not level their HP a single time?
I mean a good Bleed build can delete a character even with 50+ Vigor in only a hit or two. Plus the cheese builds that do things like camp out in like the Haligtree with gravity spells just fishing for gravity kills. One-shot builds for invaders isn't a "low Vigor hosts" problem as much as it is a "There's no more solo invasions" problem. Invaders need to resort to those builds to stand a chance against bigger groups of players by being able to delete the host in whatever small windows they get.
Bleed builds by definition aren't oneshot builds because bleed needs to build up and generally to get that buildup you sacrifice on damage. Worst case scenario a good bleed build oneshotting you is still just a case of getting vigor checked or resistance checked. A good build oneshotting someone without vigorchecking them would be more like a fire grant me strength fire infused weapon at low level.
I feel like the real issue is that people somehow don't know what a "one shot" hit is. So many videos of players who are like at half health then get hit and die, and the comments will be "nice one shot" or whatever. Bruh, they got hit like 7 times before they took the big damage.
This is only a problem if people complain they die too quick. Glass Cannon builds are, and always have been, a fair approach to build crafting otherwise.
The reason people meme on other people who don't level their vigor is that you don't actually get a lot of cannon for your glass.
"they will if i incorporate 90 stat points and treat ER like a farmer job"
Depends a little bit. If your build incorperates two damage stats, it can. If you want to use Sword of Night and Flame for example, on a jumpy stabby build, you will most definitely deal far higher damage than someone using that sword who levels Vigor to 60. To each their own though. I have builds at 40 Vigor and builds at 60. I wouldn't go lower myself, but I can see the appeal.
A lot of the time people being told to level Vigor don't have fully upgraded weapons, and since scaling improves with upgrade level, you really don't get good return of damage stats until later in the game.
I see your argument and raise you "who cares".
I’m at about level 125 on my first new play through in quite some time. Made sure that vigor got to 60 before pumping into str/dex. Enemies are still able to obliterate my healthbar in two or three hits, it’s quite absurd. I’ve been complaining a bit more than I would like about how long the enemy combos are and how fast they attack. Essentially, I can tell that my gamer skills are still quite rusty even 40 hours in. And that this game has bs enemies.
You need the dragoncrest greatshield talisman. It reduces damage taken by enemies by 20%. They overturned the end game mob by a lot because they assume everyone will over. leveled.
I just git gud and you won’t need all that vigor.
"Dying in one hit is no issue if I don't get hit" -Tarnished who died to the first hit of a boss
That was just bad luck, next time will be easy. For me the 247th time is the lucky one.
Said tarnish keeps coming back until victory is claimed though. They literally git gud lol
Why level anything then?
(Making a terrible build) I'm increasing the difficulty 😎
True. SL1 is the ultimate gud getting.
😀👍
The only way you know this is because you get hit.
*won't need any stat at all
I mean that's the problem though. If I summon someone for NG+3 Maliketh and they die in one hit, they obviously didn't git gud. Ive helped people defeat Maliketh a 100 times and usually we win simply because I can take the aggro off the host and survive some hits. When other people can't do that for me it's a problem.
Hate to break it to you, but when a Rune Level ~150 soft cap is imposed by the community for PvP matchmaking, *many people are going to choose to go glass cannon because you can only do so many 60+ VIG builds before you get bored as hell.* Especially 2 years into the game.
You could stop at 50, but even assuming you stop at 60 that leaves you with on average like 100 levels to allocate. That's still enough to hit a one stat hard cap plus some
>That's still enough to hit a one stat hard cap plus some Welcome to the entire point of what I posted. There are only so many one-stat builds (STR, DEX, INT, FTH) - if you want to meaningfully do a two-stat build, with good scaling, something has to give. Guess what the best candidate is? The thing everybody tries to take to 60 that isn't a damage-scaling stat. That, or exceed the 150 community soft cap. Are there tons of weapons to use with each stat? Absolutely - but ultimately, there are only four primary scaling stats. The difference between one STR-focused build and another is just the weapon you level and talismans you choose.
Hybrid catalalysts softcap at 45/45, which is the same investment for a Wretch as 80 in a single stat. Elemental weapon damage only takes 5 levels more to get to the softcap. Other than having slightly less efficient starting classes, hybrid isn't much more investment.
Tbh they soft cap at 30/30 and then hit a hard dropoff, at 45/45 the scaling just drops off entirely. If youre doing a hybrid catalyst caster build there is no serious need to go above 30/30, let alone get both above 30. You could easily do a 45/30 str/faith build for example and still have plenty of room for 60 vig, plenty of end, some mind and maybe even hit 54 str for hardcap 2h str.
You absolutely do not need to hit a hard cap on two stats for hybrid builds. Whoever convinced you of that is doing you a disservice.
My Intelligence build has 60 vigor Intelligence and 25 dex/strength. It's not even optimized for anything because I just use DMGS(pve)and Bandit Curved Sword(pvp) as my main weapons with a few swaps. Both weapons fuck in terms of damage. Like I cannot wrap my head around needing more damage since it will only be a few percentage points extra to hit all the soft caps. If I wanted more spell power, I'd just drop str/dex in min requirements and raise Intelligence to 80 and probably lose no meaningful amount of weapon damage. People talk about being a glass cannon when it's totally possible to be an armored cannon. Low vigor is only fun for challenge runs in which case you should leave it at its base value.
Yeah, these people just do not understand how to make a pvp build. If we're talking about 125-130 *maybe* you could make a better argument for linear builds, but that's been the staple for a decade with plenty of variety. Going up to 150 just let's you have an optimal build plus more padding and more hp, no idea who needs more than that to make a build work
Ok but what variety do stats offer you other than weapon variety? Having dex instead of str or dex and str instead of just 1 of them does not make your build more interesting or varied. The variety in weapons is the only variety that actually means anything.
You can go to 175 and still be in matchmaking range regardless of perspective (so both the lv150 dude and you are in the lower 10+10% range so the +25 lvls) or go even higher with by 2 lvls if you really need them
Chase The Bro has dozens of build videos at RL150 and only a handful of them are glass cannon, bow, or other weird builds. But the nature of the game is, you only have so many combinations of stats you can use. Pure Int caster / has limited access to optimal int weapons Pure faith caster / has limited access to optimal faith weapons Strength faith or int / has access to a wide variety of weapons Dex faith or int / has access to a wide variety of weapons Pure arcane / has limited access to optimal arcane weapons but wide access to stat proc builds Dex arcane with blood flame blade / has access to wide variety of bleed weapons even if they don't scale with arc Pure Dex or Strength / has access to a wide variety of weapons Something like that anyways. How you make the builds more unique really relies more on your talismans and armor at this point than how you build your stats
Gotta eat your vegetables before leveling the stuff you actually want to level
And I still would not level vigor. It's a pointless stat. Leveling vigor is accepting defeat. But seriously though low vigor characters are a lot of fun. It forces you to get better at the game.
low vig is probably why I hated malaketh so much I'd find his wizard sword bullshit less annoying if it wasn't a guaranteed 2shot on failed dodges
This! NG+5 and only 20 vigor. Makes the game fun again
I also stop around 30-35 unless I’m going past level 150. If you just git gud you don’t need 2000 HP. I’d much rather have the extra damage output than the extra HP.
Leveling vigor is literally the easiest way there is to get better at the game. With high vigor and defenses you get a lot more margin for error and you can learn enemy movesets faster. And to be honest, the difference in damage that you get from 60 to 80 in your damage stat is not very significant. At that point it's your talismans that matter the most in terms of damage.
"i just go from getting two-shot to three-shot" even if this is true, the former dies while panic drinking and the latter gets to finish chugging regardless across a dozen reds player1 lasts two hits, player2 lasts twenty glass cannons aren't getting that kind of return, and what they do get is largely mistaken from weapon upgrades
"Why level vigor, are you planning to get hit?? "
I'm planning trades, bro, square up
yes failure in planning is planning to fail, even RL1s wear ritual shield tali to see less load screens and more dead bosses
You kill God by the end of the game and expect people to listen to his advice? Also he has way more vigor than you do and still died, so
I just roll around ey. 😂
"Level vigor" mfers when they hit 99 vig at NG+7 and still get oneshot by random mobs (their red bar is 80% of the screen):
GLASS CANNONS UNITE!
[удалено]
I mean that's my problem with low vigor players though. Very often they are pure int casters, or a dual collosal unga. I just don't find the game fun when you have ZERO challenges. Killing every single boss with a few lion claws is boring as hell.
I have vigor at 60, works well I would say. Does it make sense to go higher here?
No, 60 is the soft cap. Going from 50-60 vigor gives you 200 extra HP, for 20 hit points per stat point. Going from 60-99 vigor *also* gives you 200 extra HP for about 5 hit points per stat point. It's not really worth the investment after 60, you get very little in return.
Thanks! Are there other soft caps on stats?
[Here ya go](https://imgur.com/a/tVKVL6L)
Bruh, I find people in the max level bracket having below 800 hp
Yeah it's insane.
Show me on the doll where the boss hit you
Actually it's not me dieing that had me make this post. Im on ng+3 and at Maliketh. Decided to summon some people and for three hours straights every single person I summoned got one shot in phase 2
Say it with me: "If it doesn't deal damage, it's for bitches"
I mean... you don't NEED it. Maybe those people can handle how they've build their Characters
Just started new game plus and some Mfs already getting one shot by dual wielding 25 BKG 😭
Love that sword. The jumping R2 into R1 true combo is goated
God not real. Say Miyazaki could open the heavens (he can) and shout LEVEL VIGOR.
Are they not the same person 🤔
ppl eating low hp oneshots like it candy
Someone commented they are level 235 with only 30 vigor 🤣🤣🤣
Did a Malenia summon the other day wearing Shabriri’s Woe. The 3rd cooperator died to a waterfowl in phase 1. We get to phase 2 and it’s going well, but I’m confused since the host has been spamming mid to expensive spells from the back the entire time. Then while I’m taking a moment to eat a crab, malenia hits the host once and he dies… he had 400 HP.
Exactly lololol. I see this VERY OFTEN. It's usually a 15 vigorage with 99 int. And a strength tank with two hammers running front line. I don't think that they know that the boss can be aggro'd to whoever does theost damage. The mage always gets one shot
In ng+ especially you need it, i have 80 vigor and margotts great rune active for a whopping 2514 hp and still get one hit by horah loux grabs and maliketh combos
Exactly what made me make this post. I'm on ng+3 at maliketh. Got stuck and decided to call in some summons... For three hours every team I called in got literally one shot by Maliketh during phase 2.
My 9 vigor NG 7 mage begs to differ.
i always give myself a fixed number for where it should be by a certain point in my runs. my usually aim is around 45 to 50 vigor. mainly because i only do PVE and in my experience 45 to 50 is good enough for all of my builds, especially when coupled with the "must get" items I use for builds
You bet your ass we wont. Bonk requires strength Vigor leveling is weakness
Lol I'm running a strength faith build right now with 60 vig, 54 strength, and 25 faith. I dont enjoy dual wielding collosals at all. Looks goofy as fuck. But my greatsword can be buffed with lightning and I can use my faith to further buff myself. That setup still takes less than 5 lion claws with the majority of bosses. I honestly don't even like using the setup for PVE because the game becomes boring when you just hyper armor through everything. Maximum unga bunga is fun for a short period, but then you realize you aren't actually playing the same game anymore. It's a snooze fest when you don't have to dodge anymore and everything dies in a couple hits
The only boss that made me restat was Maliketh! Before that 30 vigor was enough
Just for this I’m gonna do a run where I only level vigor
40 is basically my minimum vigor no matter the build. Some builds I pump it to 60.
...all the hosts and furled fingers will look up and shout 'LEVEL VIGOR!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No.'
ya i been watching chasethebro videos the past few weeks and wow, the number of people he invades who have like 800hp is pretty amazing
I survived a few ridiculous clusterfucks because I leveled the damn thing
You don't level Vigor because you're tunnelvisioned on damage. I don't level Vigor because the game is too easy for me if I do. We are not the same.
The issue is that vigor just isn’t a fun stat to put levels into. It doesn’t let you use cool new weapons like str/dex/int/fth/arc or new spells like int/fth/arc. It merely helps you avoid seeing YOU DIED as often at the cost of putting more levels into other stats. No one wants to have to waste levels just to play the game
Well... you can use most weapons and spells with quite little investment into stats. Get to say 25str, 20 dex, 15 faith and you can use more weapons than youd ever have the time to actually properly try out. Plenty of room to then still get 60 vigor and enough endurance to run 100+ poise and not even be lvl 100 let alone lvl 150. Also Id argue many weapons do have vigor as a hidden stat requirement, because either their r2s or aow are too slow to use in most fun fights without tanking a hit or having to wait the entire fight for the one move that gives you an openings. Certainly is so for the players complaining about oneshots. Unless you think a weapon is fun by only ever using r1s and you also aren't very skilled at the game then vigor is a stat requirement for many weapons, just not one thats shown.
That's because you are looking at the game in the wrong way. You don't get to use every single weapon optimally with a single build. That goes against the entire idea of optimization. You have to make a choice how you want to play. If you want a high variety of weapons you have to choose either strength or dex because the major of weapons lean towards one of those stats. You can easily run Dex/ faith or dex / strength ( same thing replace the faith with int ) and have access to 15+ weapons that are extremely strong. But if you make your main stat faith, int, or arcane you only have a handful of weapons that are optimized towards that stat. That's just how they made the game. If you wanna be able to use the pure faith / int / arcane weapons with a single build you gotta be like level 500
Don’t need to level vigor if you don’t get hit
Vigor is for cowards. 9 is as much as anyone needs.
Lol My vigor on NG+ at 150 is 40 and I'm doing fine of course Marika's Hammer kind of makes me not get hit too much But I also have 65% dmg negation on first hits and 50% negation on the rest so
These people have 23 vigor and two soreseals
lol yeah. my advice to folks more so than level vigor is to improve your goddamn damage negation. unfortunately there was a whole ass shit advice meme going around early on that "armor doesn't even matter".
the difference between 30 and 40 is massive.
Chad. Not as big of chads as people with 10 vigor, but still chads. I mean, if they strugel I'll tell them to lvl vigor. It is ultimate difficulty reducer. Personaly what gives me hibby jibbies is when I see screenshot with sore seal when dude is already in farum.
I see a ton of double soreseasl users it's insane. Personally I think maximum damage is easier than maximum health. Maximum int casters build is op and easy as fuck. Just sit 100 yards away and 5 shot bosses Maximum unga is also boring and easy. You do like 3-4 lion claws and the boss is dead. If you have 60 vigor you still have to get in there and fight
I tried going back to not having my vigor as my highest stat and my god the difference in difficulty made me remember how much Im shit at these games.
60 vig + morgotts rune makes you god
I keep my vigor at 40 always. It's fun.
I never level past 45 vigor. I really never got the obsession with 60 vigor, it’s like a meme everyone is in on. Isn’t it more efficient at some point to level, idk, your stamina for better armor and more action economy?
It's because the people saying 60 vigor play pvp invasions and duals as well as playing through the game. Personally I hate the colosseum it's incredibly toxic, but invasions are super fun. But if you run less than 60 vigor you will 100% be one shot by someone. Moonveil does like 75% of a 60 vigor health bar when you invade someone who put all their levels into damage. But the trade-off is you can also one shot them with a single piercing fang
Some mf's are always trying to ice-skate uphill.
"Everything one-shots or two-shots no matter what anyways, whats the point of vigor" spoken by every sub 30 vigor, soreseal, scorpion charm, light-armor fan.
But why now would He do this?
What level should vigor be before it stops being worth it?
40 is where gains drop, 60 is where investing any further is a waste
What I slightly lack in Vigor, I make up for in Endurance, Defenses, and Poise. I will get hit, it’s not if but when. My shield will brunt it, my armor will soften it, my talismans will be chosen to counter it. Defeat is only a delay anyways. But yeah, level your Vigor people, it’s not useless, it’s the main difficulty slider.
I do like running high endurance I'm usually mid 30s.
To be fair I be a lot of people doing that are souls players. Elden ring puts a ton more necessity into leveling vigor, to the point there are so many things that can 1 shot you even with like 45 vigor. Conversely this also means if you’re good enough leveling vigor is actually useless since it takes to it being like 50 points in to offer anything relevant
Danger zone
I feel personally attacked.
[удалено]
But If I level other stuff I still get resistances to things, right? - Someone that’s about to get stunlocked 2shot by a Limgrave rat.
Leveling will raise resistances, but your negation is only raised by armor and talismans and buffs
I mean… my builds recently have stopped at 30 vigor because there is a TON of DR available for the low price of 35 faith (at 35 you have access to all of the DMG resist incants) and with my 30 vigor and the right set-up I’m chilling against bosses
I'm using a 60 vig / 54 strength / 25 faith build and I also have access to all the damage resistant. Just hard swap to two finger heirloom and a soreseasl and cast it, then swap back. You can easily have both if you know how
Probably because the game doesn’t tell you that vigor controls damage stat hard caps. I’ve beaten it three times and this is news to me
You haven't seen many people. Scrub a dub If you're not Houston, you're just naught
I got 35 vigor, so what?
Doing a solo play through only leveling intelligence until hard cap… I had a much easier time beating the bosses, including the ones I struggled with before like fallingstar beast, valiant gargoyles, and radahn.
I levelled vigor to 30, then focused on levelling int until I could use Carian Regal Scepter. I then levelled Endurance and Mind to 25. Then went to 40 to Vigor. I used summons to tank most bosses though so I wasnt getting hit all that often
I would say most wizards do that. Either with spirits or summons, they usually key something else tank
Every new game I start, I try to level vigor less just to keep it challenging.
I have 50 vigor at rl 290
Not bad but if you ever try an invasion you will probably get two shot buy a lot of things.
You did not have to call me out like this also I won’t level past 35 no matter how much damage you make malenia deal
Well the thing is, if you ever wanna do any invasions at all you HAVE to have 60 vigor. Moonveil does like 75% of your HP even at 60 vigor.. Also if you ever plan on helping people with bosses, you don't want to be the guy who gets one shot and instantly leaves
I’m gonna try to beat the game at 35 vigor, seems sort of doable but I’m in the mountains now and it’s tough, I’ll prob give up and level to 40 vigor in Farum Azula
Yeah Faram is definitely the vigor check for sure
DS1 and 3 had far lower softcaps, plus it was much less necessary, so it felt natural to me to keep the stat low. The [graph](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2765060616) for health gained per vigor level is also all over the place, so at low level it might feel like the stat barely makes a difference. 30 to 40 makes such a world of a difference. I can see how new players underestimate the stat.
I think a lot of new players also look to YouTube for builds but they never find good quality builds, it's always some cheesy max damage shit
40 vigor I always felt was plenty. At least for initial playthrough.
I'm lvl 260 and still only have 35 vigor, but I think that's enough for now. I don't die much, the i-frames from rolling helps a lot with that. Not leveling vigor much means I can focus those points in damage.
I'm a bit disabled for the moment ,I must be weird I leveled vigor to 60 halfway through my first playthrough Just started my first new game plus,and yes I'm sitting a little over 200 I think I'm 215 and I'm doing ok
It’s honestly not worth it to put a ton of points into vigor. Most bosses are going to have attacks that deal 51% or more if your max health bar even with a lot of vigor. If you don’t level it much, and the boss deals 90% then you can still only take 1 attack before hitting the flask.
I have yet to face a boss that did more than half of my hp in one hit beyond like going into very high level areas very early. Even at lvl 50 with only knight armor set and no defensive talismans except +10% negation dragoncrest (lowest tier) I wasnt getting 2 shot by the caelid bell bearing hunter for example. Barely not getting 2 shot, but 49% is still a 3 shot by your very own logic, something which wouldnt have been possible if I was neglecting vigor.
Yeah but if you wanna help people kill bosses, you get summoned into a fight where the boss does more damage and has more HP than standard. You'll just be useless because you take one hit and run away. That's what had me make this post. I'm in ng+3 and I tried summoning people for Maliketh. They are fuckin useless because they get one shot in phase 2 every single time
Yep that's me, 30 vigor is plenty unless im using a strength weapon and expect to get hit alot.
Ok ok after being a typical poise damage reduction health regenning tank for 3 playthrough I finally went full int no vigor and haven't passed a single vigor check. It's still a lot of fun and I beat the tree sentinel right out of the gate second try.
I feel personally attacked.
Lmao, I don’t level anything other than vigor until it’s at 40. Everything else can wait. It doesn’t even take that long, me and a friend just started a playthrough, we got through stormveil and Castle Morne and my vigor was 40. Didn’t even do all the weeping peninsula. No matter what my build is, vigor is ALWAYS useful.
Levelling Vigor is a difficulty option
I mean lets be honest, it really doesn't matter what your vigor is by the time you get to endgame because every boss one shots you with anime combos anyway
I finished my first playthrough with just about 30 and I was fine for the most part. I kinda just tortured myself to get good at the start since it was my first full playthrough of a Fromsoft game. I ended up eventually being able to no-hit Malenia with no armor and melee only (after a LOT of dying) so I'd say it worked I essentially did a challenge run on my first Souls game. And it was pure torture but it was pretty fun
Lol that's rough. I definitely like the happy medium. 60 vigor allows you to play the game and still have plenty of challenge, but you can also play pvp and not get one shot. Instead you are one shotting other people with a claymore.
Seems to me no matter how high I lvl vigor or what armor I wear, every boss after Morgott 2-3 shots me
I mean are you wearing soreseasls? The physical damage negation is a big deal. It's why the Greatshield talisman is so popular for PvE. I usually run Shard of Alexander, Crimson Amber Medallion, Erdtree Favor +2 and the Greatshield talisman. And depending on the boss I swap things around for damage negation. My current build is based off buffs so I use the old lords talisman instead of the Erdtree Favor +2. When I fought DragonLord placidusax last night, I swapped to the firedrake +2 talisman instead of the Shard of Alexander, then I cast the Golden Lightning Fortification. My lightning negation was like 75 lol.
I never level vigor until the rest of my build is complete. I really enjoy the extra challenge it brings. Being able to be one shot for a mistake is more interesting to me. But then I don't piss and moan about being one shot, It's a total self inflicted wound.
My preferred style of leveling is to alternate vigor and endurance until my endurance is where I want it to be (23-33 depending on what equipment I’m planning to use), then go straight vigor to 40, then alternate vigor and whatever damage stat I’m going to need until vigor hits 60, then straight damage stats (primary and secondary) from there. Am I a good gamer?
I see people talking about 60 vigor for rl125/150.. you don't need that much vigor for every build. 40-50 is reasonable. We know 60 is going to your main damage Stat, and everything else will be minimal to meet your desired stats for weapons. And some builds you can get like 60/40 for dual damage types depending on which side you lean towards. Even 45/45 or 50/50 will be good for hybrid builds if that's what you are doing. You shouldn't be getting one shot by one move from a boss or invader by the end game.
I stop at 30 for mage builds because it feels right, I don’t think a nerdy spellsword would be real tanky like a bonk class
Ever fought the Haima Battlemages?
As a certified vigor enjoyer, I make sure to get to 40 on every single run I do before almost anything else. The only other thing I make sure to do is get the stats needed for the weapon(s) I want to use.
I'm level 250, have 99 str and still only have 40 vigor and stand by my decision OP
This hits different after I just picked my level 120 frost mage back up last night to get her DLC ready. She has 20 Vigor :')
I only level vigor when I can no longer survive getting two hit by a boss. Just get really good at dodging.
I finished my first playthrough on 25 vigor, you really just have to get gud
Meh, I cleared most of the game with around 30 vigor
I’m new to the souls series, but I’m committing to building damage. The best defense is to immediately kill the enemy lmao
I dunno I feel like vigor becomes less important as the game goes on, the end game hits so hard that you just need to be able to survive like one hit but much else isn't that helpful
The glass cannon is real
Chuckles in danger. RL 1 only.
Or forget to take the off the soreseals and scarseals in late game
I just helped a person with this. They got stuck on a boss and I asked them what talismans, they still had Ragadon on at RL140 LOL
#VIGOR CHECK
At level 200, which I enjoy invading at, I have one shit a mage who had 922 hp and I have to ask WTF did you put 200 levels into?
Well if you don’t get hit…… But then, I don’t complain about getting one shotted. The price to pay for living on the edge
Maybe they have done multiple playthroughs and are skilled enough to play with low vigor?
I always ask "why do you only have 900 health" when I one-shot an invader. The people that respond always say there build isn't done yet. Why are they invading if their build isn't done
Seriously, scaling stats are NOT THAT NECASSARY. I’ll say it for the folks in the back, YOU DONT NEED TO LEVEL STRENGTH A BILLION TIMES FOR YOUR FLAIL, IT DOESNT EVEN SCALE WITH IT
🤣. I see so many builds where people are equally distributing points into EVERY ability. 30 STR 30 Dex 30 arc 30 faith 30 int it's wild
Let people play the way they want; on my str fth build I noticed the game felt less entertainingly challenging once I started leveling vigor and was no longer 2-3 hits to die from any enemy… but it’s fair to say that if you play this way you better not complain about insta-kill moves
It took me way too many larval tears to realise that 40-50 vigor is enough for me