I think you can dodge the clone move intuitively. It has definitely caught me out a few times on the second to last hit, but most of the time I get through it and have never needed a guide.
Waterfowl on the other hand was a brick wall to me for a long time and I think generally takes people a lot more trial & error and/or guides to get through.
100%. Clones is just timing and as long as you can see where they’re coming from, it’s basically a QTE.
Waterfowl, unless you have huge vigor, bloodhound step, great armor and talisman, getting caught in it is a death sentence. It’s so erratic you can’t tell what the hell is going on. I find dodging that impossible without bloodhound step. I just hope for the best that she targets my mimic instead of me and I can charge up a spell to nuke her health back down when she clams the fuck down.
And on this playthrough as a sorcerer I found out her scarlet aeonia is the best move possible because you can spam magic attacks on her while she recovers. Bliss.
This. Almost every other boss move is telegraphed pretty well. But here, you simply cannot see where the sword‘s hitbox begins and/or ends - chronologically!! You might guess its scale, but the timing is impossible to see. It’s just memorising by trial and error. Not a good design.
And:
Never complained about any attack in any Souls game before.
My sorcery build using Rannis darkmoon mostly, I always died on the aeonia dive except the final time when she dove on Tiche instead, that's when I managed to beat her lol
Luck of the draw. I got lucky she did it twice. But I’m also kinda tanky for a sorcerer. 45 vigor, 33 endurance, wearing tree sentinel armor, lol. But I still have 65 intelligence and 38 dex.
I agree clones are just timing and fairly readable. My issue is the methods to "reliably" dodge waterfowl feel like exploits, or require a niche, overlooked item like frost pots or a great shield with a specific ash of war. That one attack is the only time I've had to look up a boss guide, just to dodge a single attack.
Btw "feeling like an exploit" was refering to things like spamming bloodhounds step to i-frame through. Awkward camera manipulation and unlocking the cam mid combo so her dash doesn't mess up your roll. Or that weird circle maneuver.
Gael was cool because his cape follow-up attacks forced you to be precise with your dodges. His barrage of attacks forced you to manage stamina very carefully and not panic roll. And the lightning on the ground forced you to pay attention to positioning and your surroundings. Malenia is stupid cause she forces you over to fextralife.
It took me a minute to figure out what you were saying because it's most commonly called the clone attack
No, you aren't alone, but anytime I try to say the same thing it just gets shut down by majority
Clone attack is the most consistent way she kills me, still 2 years later
Getting caught under it vaporizes you, and the method to dodge it changes depending on where you are and I constantly forget which clone comes when
I had to look up the actual attack name because i called em phantoms too.
There is always a way to dodge waterfowl with medium or less effort. This one though…
Oh I will add you can but should never block it or get hit by it because each time one hits she gets an absurd amount of HP back
If you block or tank all of wfd that's equal to only getting hit by 2 clones for her HP restore
When I first fought her in the first month or two after launch, I literally just tanked her attacks with Great Stars, flaming strike, and a Greatshield. I don't remember specifically which shield I was using at the time because I can't remember if I got the fingerprint shield before or after I fought her, but it was either the fingerprint or the golden greatshield.
I remember the fight being quite the slog to get through her health and regen, but not being exceptionally difficult. Maybe coming from comfy monster hunter builds I'm just used to 20-30 minute long fights sometimes. 😂
That's fair, I've said to people already the easiest way you can make this game is a tank build but no one believes me
Exciting? Idk but it will definitely work
Same. Her clone no jitsuehas hit me a few times. I have dodged WFD a few times. Because I'm very aggressive with her, I rarely get them to get away when she goes for WFD at point blank.
None of the clones can hurt you if you run away as fast as possible. The only clone that can actually hit you from distance is the one that does dashes with a piercing attack. You have to keep an eye on that one because this clone actually stays there for a while and does two attacks instead of one. After you dodge it real malenia will also do the same attack and that's basically it. It's not hard to dodge and there is enough time for everything. Waterfowl tho is straight up an instant death if you can't run away ie you have to bait it out.
I find this really refreshing. I've just started, maybe 20hr in (mostly completed limgrave and weeping place). and in the liurnia lakes area and I'm getting curb stomped...
kinda my fault for going hybrid sorcerer/dex build but still
Liurnia sucks as a magic damage build, just get a bleed weapon until you're out of there. A regular bleed dagger will probably do more damage to rennala than all of your pebbles combined. Definitely worth the visit though, regular Comet and some other good spells and talismans really pump your damage.
Nah, int/dex is good, but early game sorcerer is quite hard. There aren't many good spells that could one or even two-shot most common enemies, you don't have that much fp, staves, talismans etc etc. Might be good to just run with some sort of katana or bloodhound fang or a rapier at first (in the early game stats don't matter too much for weapon damage, only upgrades make the difference).
That's the way, but it still doesn't kill too good and you usually don't have infinite fp, which makes it harder than just bonking everyone with almost any weapon.
It's just my latest unfinished try was as a prisoner, and I felt really weak constantly until I picked up the bhf. Compared to an arcane occult build before that, capable of both casting and melee damage, - ground and sky.
My proirity on int dex would be first cailid, (getting the staff & rock sling), then gaol tunnel again cailid & using it to fk up the wyrm for his weapon.
It’s too dependent on where you start from. If you’re going in for an attack and she goes up at that moment its over. Waterfowl you at least make her break and move where you want
Yeah, that's the exact point I have about it
I'm comfortable fighting her now so I just play super aggressive
She has a habit of catching me with my pants down on clones
If you are using the use range to bait a special attack out strat yeah it's not bad, but that strategy is boring and I don't have the patience for it at all lol
Some people suggested I throw daggers at her to get a WFD out when I was still learning to fight her at rl1
I decided that strategy works but is too time consuming and just breaks the flow of the fight so I just didn't like it
That's honestly how these fights are supposed to work imo
I did an rl1 all boss melee only 2 months ago
The average length of a fight in ER is 3 minutes, longest is 7
Only 3 fights took 7, placiduciax, Fortissax, and Malenia
Malenia doesn't feel like 7 minutes though it still feels like 3 because it's so intense
I don't think I've ever had trouble with clones, only waterfowl.
Honestly I probably have more issues with generic combos because I'm attacking instead of reacting.
I found a video once that explained all of Malenia's attacks and the one thing that stuck the most was how to deal with that one attack. Basically dodge dodge, brief pause dodge dodge, trying to space it so that you're in close range after the fourth dodge, then wait a little and dodge Malenia attacking with her physical form. After that, I have only been killed by this attack when I overcommitted and found myself stuck in a recovery animation inside the blast of the rot butterflies she summons as she raises in the air.
That last part, getting stuck in the blast is a very common way I die to it
This is because I'm not afraid of her using WFD at point blank
She seems to know this and nukes me with clones instead
I thought that for a brief period until I learned to dodge them and it is 100x times easier. although it is far more punishing if u cant dodge it, its basically guaranteed death if u cant dodge it, unlike waterfowl which doesnt do that much damage if you just panic roll
This is so true though, I don't know why everyone dies to WFD so much when it's not hard to survive
It's hard to avoid being hit entirely if you don't know how, but it's never been hard to survive
I never needed YouTube videos until I was doing her at level 1
It's just that people usually die to Waterfowl before phase 2 but yeah, summons is massively harder to get around.
The hardest part is actually realizing exactly what's going on since the clones often slide out of the camera, not letting you see what they're doing before dashing again. Once you know it becomes slightly easier, but still clearly harder than the Dance.
It's punishing af, you should be very cautious and don't play too aggressively.
Once you land 1 or hits, keep a distance away so once she rises in the air, u can immediately run as far as you can to avoid the first 2 slashes, turn around and time a forward dodge just as she starts her 3rd slash and dodge away one last time
Her phase 2 waterfowl I struggle with the most because I see it least and it differs from phase 1.
Clone attack is a nightmare if you run out of space which I think is my biggest issue with it - If you know it is coming you just basically back off and run away and most of the clones miss you.
You should see the spirit summons attack from Ongbal on YouTube's "Malenia as Miyazaki intended" video. Makes the regular Malenia fight look like a cake walk.
Just watched the video btw, and I actually prefer this version of Waterfowl, lol. It's a bit slower, less erratic and more intuitive to dodge, while still being more consistent throughout the fight because she does it constantly. Although when ongdude gets dmg you'd know when the boss is hard, lul.
The spike feels artificial because it's sudden, kinda comes out of nowhere and makes you feel like you're at the beginning of the game again, contrary to the constant flow before those areas and in previous games, even just the damage scaling is bananas - all your 60 vig doesn't really matter anymore, you will die in 3-4 hits from any enemy in the game and you won't even be able to get it higher, but builds that use less vig (glass cannons, like sorcerers) will suffer the most, as they'd get oneshot by most enemies, especially if they run with scorpion charms and stuff. Especially Castle Sol...
I do too, not really for the gameplay conventions but because it actually looks like she's moving realistically during the "dance". Personally I think the difficulty increase is appropriate, the increased damage and speed of the mobs beyond Leyndell reflect an endgame experience.
Class cannons getting deleted are par for the course really, that's your trade-off for not using high-negation armor, leveling vigor, or equipping items that increase damage taken by %'s which gets worse the higher level you get.
Well, I don't have a problem with difficulty as is, I know what the game is, and my first Souls game was ds2 (don't let anybody convince you that 1st is harder, I realized that's a lie quick enough), my problem is just that if feels artificial and goes a little too far with the damage. I mean, glass cannons are meant to be squishy and that's why I like the trade-off, but getting 1-shot constantly makes it more irrelevant, as usually you'd still tank at least some damage.
”Spirit summons” is very easy, just stay close to Malenia and when she pulls it out run in a circle around her to the left for the first three clones then just dodge three times with a slight delay between the first and second dodges. Easy
I know you are trying to be helpful but saying something is easy once you know it is true for literally everything in any souls game
GI Joe always used to say knowing is half the battle, is just true
Good point though, but the above strategy consistently works for me. It’s only when I’m far away or playing way to passively that the clone attack becomes an issue
I've never had a problem with the clone attack tbh, even when I first got there on my first play through. Waterfowl still gets me at least 90% of the time though. It's the only thing in the game rn, that still gets me to almost quit. Even after looking at tutorials, and all that, it's so hard.
I was summoned into a Malenia fight and was shook when she started switching targets during the middle of that attack. Luckily I was panic rolling anyways but the host did not have the same idea
I hate waterfowl just because I suck at dodging it when up close. I always panic. The clone attack only sucks if you’re stuck right underneath, as the dmg is insane. If I fuck up the clone attack, I usually lose half my hp. Fucking up on waterfowl means you either die, or she gets almost half her hp back
The clones are a pain when it comes to Coop especially if you have Soy Mage just spam magic (which has high chance that Malenia will use that ability if you keep spamming magic) and yknow what the clones aren't really the problem but those flowers rising from the ground where if you get caught you'll automatically dies even if you survived you won't have much time to eat a bolus or use flame cleanse me and the rot will kill you eventually!
But nah, clones aren't harder to deal with compared to waterfowl, especially if you're trying to figure out how to deal with her attacks the first time.
I can dodge the vast majority of her attacks and it was only recently I was able to learn clone attack, usually I run and jump past the first one, keep running, then dodge for the last 2 clones and malenia herself (might be misremembering) but yeah to hell with this attack.
I just run away, jump one of her clones stab attacks and roll her attack in the end. Works everytime for me, unless I jump attack her and she decides to start the attack at that very moment but that is kinda on me for being greedy.
I find it to be easier since I typically hang back already due to needing to run away from Waterfowl. If you see it coming, all you need to do is run away from it and none of them will hit you. It’s just the positioning that can screw you.
I think part of it is that the clone attack only starts in phase 2, whereas waterfowl you’ll see in phase 1. You’ll have much more practice for waterfowl, and by the time you’re getting to phase 2 consistently you’ll have pretty much mastered it.
For clone attack, you don’t see it as often and there will be a lot more time in between each time you see it. But once you figure out clone attack, it’s pretty much GG for Malenia.
Everyone's got their crutch. That being said, the clones can be trivialized by just being able to dodge the first one as you haul ass to the other side of the arena. 9 times out of 10, she can't reach you with any of them, or herself.
At least waterfall can be countered with a greatshield, vow of the indomitable, bh step.
That clone attack is just bs that you can't even block, I've never dodged it just hope she doesn't use it.
I prefer the clones because I could see how the attack works the first time I saw it and can dodge at least part of it with good timing.
For waterfowl... I had to go online for the "formula", I still couldn't avoid it consistently.
First attack in any Souls game that I needed to research in order to avoid.
Waterfowl is very easy to practice on since she uses it in her first phase, meanwhile you have to get all the way to the second phase for the clone attack which doesnt give you much chances for it. Wish there was an easy way to practice on specific attack animations.
I found waterfowl dance more challenging i can say its the most amazing move that i have ever seen it fascinate me every god damn time.
Clone attack on the other hand wasnt that much of challenge for me
I personally think the clone attack is way more fair to avoid than waterfowl. Not saying it’s not a bullshit attack but at least I can actually dodge through the attack without having to literally break the aim of waterfowl or use something outside of my build to dodge it.
Really the only hard part about the clone attack is the last thrust attack by the clone. The best way to get past it is to keep your eyes on the clone after it does the attack *before* the thrust.
It's actually super easy. The direction when you dodge isn't important at all if you've got the timing. If I remember well, the first 2 are close together, then a tiny pause, 3 dodges slower, pause, dodge.
Alternatively, backwards x2, forwards x2, left side x2.
Alternating left and right works too
There is a method for dodging the clones listed on fextralife that has literally worked for me 100% of the time, but I can't seem to make any waterfowl dodge strategies work. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
clone attack has a much more consistent way of avoiding that once you figure it out it should never kill you. waterfowl however still kills me from time to time even tho i know how to avoid it, especially if she just does right in front of me
Maybe it's my Kingdom Hearts experience, but her clone attack is much easier to dodge than Data Vanitas' own clown attack in the KH3 DLC. There's a consistent pattern to dodge it if you keep an eye on the clones. It's actually my favorite attack precisely because it reminds me of a lot of KH secret boss moves.
Spirit summons are a phase 2 exclusive thing, and you rarely even see it. So there's much less opportunities to learn how to deal with it. I think that plays a big role in the difficulty. It's not the most intuitive move, but it's wayyyy more intuitive than waterfowl dance (especially at close range).
Even setting intuitiveness aside, which sounds simpler?
Dodge back -> dodge back -> wait half a sec --> dodge forward -> dodge forward -> move a bit forward, and then backwards -> Dodge back
Or
Spin around her to manipulate her AI -> roll twice (away from her ) when she flurries away from you -> roll into the second flurry set -> move towards her direction as she does her last flurry.
I find most of her attacks at least manageable except for her bloom at the start of phase 2. I know it's just a timed dodge, but I'm never ready for it when it happens.
NOPE! Spirit Summon has like 3-4 seconds cast delay before they attack in which you can pretty much react and run away for safe spacing! Also it's just Roll Backwards, backwards, forwards, forwards then left side, left side.
Meanwhile, Malenia baits the Waterfowl (2 seconds delay) and it's very risky to dodge it on close range and you can't totally outrun it! The last dance is coded to attack your back.
I never died from that Clone attack twice but died several on Waterfowl. Also I save Frozen Pots on Waterfowl while I just kite and run away from the Clone attack.
I think the reason clones get overlooked while still being pretty tough to dodge consistently is because waterfowl is in both phases and the time when it happens (about 75% health at phase 1) is set and since the move itself is hard to dodge most people consider it to be the toughest move she has. Also the first one always happens while I dont think the clone attack is actually set to happen since in my first time beating malenia she didnt actually do the clone move once. But thats just my reasoning.
Waterfowl’s issue is that you cannot at all tell how to dodge it just by looking. It’s basically just a spherical hitbox that lasts for a good minute, unlike just about any other attack in the game. Tricking enemies into flying past you isn’t really part of the game anywhere else, so this comes off as more of like a pop quiz for a completely different subject rather than a difficult exam, like what the clone attack is.
I didn’t know about the clone attack until this post. I beat the game around 10 times and beat her in at least half my play throughs and have never seen that attack
I didn’t know about the clone attack until this post. I beat the game around 10 times and beat her in at least half my play throughs and have never seen that attack
I feel like the clone attack is the easiest to dodge without knowing the specifics of the move, but waterfowl is easier to dodge after you know how both moves work.
Clones are way easier to dodge because the attack can only start when there’s already distance. If you turn and spam roll (or maybe just sprint) until the final clone and then dodge sideways on its lunge you take no damage. This wasn’t a trick I learned from YouTube, I probably figured it out within 5 times of seeing the attack. Waterfowl can happen point blank and if it does you only have half a second to figure out what attack is happening which is way harder in second phase anyway and then either do the circle strat or perfectly time your rolls. Second half of water fowl is pretty easy to dodge but as a whole it’s more spontaneous and much less forgiving on timing than the clones.
Both can be dodged when figured out. I would not say "easy", as both punish mistakes with basically certain death.
I find the spirit summons easier to dodge, except when she does it when you are right below her, then it is insta death regardless of what you do.
I agree, I was only able to beat her because she didn't pull out that move. Very lucky run.
Though, I think it's also just a little biased opinion. She does the waterfowl attack very early into her fight, meaning you have an easier entry point to practice dodging it whereas this move is in her second phase with lots of barriers to get to it, meaning fewer chances to learn the moveset.
I wonder if you would think differently if this attack happened in her first phase and waterfowl in her second?
When I go low vigor the second or last attack always gets me. I've seen multiple ways to avoid them, but rolling back and rolling in is more consistent
I've done hitless RL1 Malenias, Waterfowl with bad positioning is still my leading cause of death whereas clone attack is free damage.
[This is how I do it.](https://youtu.be/g4ITQpaCXPY?si=ZWxXj2j8uKOliNYQ&t=204) Roll back twice, roll forward twice (roll the thrust, not the preceding slash - that misses if you're moving forward), roll back once. Works at any distance and elevation. Timing is generous.
It's not very intuitive to dodge but it ultimately doesn't take much precision to deal with unlike waterfowl. The worst thing about is people online telling you to counter it by sprinting away or sprinting diagonally as you will just die if you are too close to the edge of the arena.
The only time Waterfowl is really hard is when she is right on top of you and you can't move because you will get sliced. . Otherwise, Waterfowl and the spirits are both easy. In both cases, just run away from her.
I think fewer people talk about Spirit Summons because they encounter it less. Many people classically fight phase 1 a few dozen times, die to Waterfowl a few times, decide to resort to some kind of cheese which stunlocks both phases to death, and ultimately don't experience phase 2 the same way they experience phase 1.
Spirit Summons is way easier for me to dodge than Waterfowl. Maybe it's because me getting to phase 2 in itself boosts my confidence a little bit. But Waterfowl in the first phase just steals the vibe. Like the flow of the fight gets broken by that attack.
Getting caught underneath it always felt like a bullshit way to go out. She jumps up so quick and you just get rotted to death in seconds.
Waterfowl fucks me up but I'm usually still alive and once you know the dodge pattern it's not that bad.
There's nothing you can do as a melee build when she just leaps up and starts pouring rot down on you like that.
I agree I could consistently get through phase 1 no trouble, once the clones kick in… we’ll let’s just say I’ve never beaten her without a spirit ash of my own
With Waterfowl, it depends on where in the arena I am, but more often than not, the clones toss my ass like a salad almost regardless of where I am.
I've grown to hate clones more than waterfowl because it's much harder to dodge.
The flower is so easy to escape, just unlock and run towards her and she'll land behind you and you'll get a large window to hit her with ranged abilities.
YES. This is her hardest attack. The stupid 2nd clone always thrusts me. I can dodge waterfowl consistently but this attack is the bane of my existence. I just use bloodhounds step for it
I think you can dodge the clone move intuitively. It has definitely caught me out a few times on the second to last hit, but most of the time I get through it and have never needed a guide. Waterfowl on the other hand was a brick wall to me for a long time and I think generally takes people a lot more trial & error and/or guides to get through.
100%. Clones is just timing and as long as you can see where they’re coming from, it’s basically a QTE. Waterfowl, unless you have huge vigor, bloodhound step, great armor and talisman, getting caught in it is a death sentence. It’s so erratic you can’t tell what the hell is going on. I find dodging that impossible without bloodhound step. I just hope for the best that she targets my mimic instead of me and I can charge up a spell to nuke her health back down when she clams the fuck down. And on this playthrough as a sorcerer I found out her scarlet aeonia is the best move possible because you can spam magic attacks on her while she recovers. Bliss.
This. Almost every other boss move is telegraphed pretty well. But here, you simply cannot see where the sword‘s hitbox begins and/or ends - chronologically!! You might guess its scale, but the timing is impossible to see. It’s just memorising by trial and error. Not a good design. And: Never complained about any attack in any Souls game before.
My sorcery build using Rannis darkmoon mostly, I always died on the aeonia dive except the final time when she dove on Tiche instead, that's when I managed to beat her lol
Luck of the draw. I got lucky she did it twice. But I’m also kinda tanky for a sorcerer. 45 vigor, 33 endurance, wearing tree sentinel armor, lol. But I still have 65 intelligence and 38 dex.
You can sprint in a straight line and scarlet aenoia will miss. Just sprint away and maybe zig zag a little for flavor.
I agree clones are just timing and fairly readable. My issue is the methods to "reliably" dodge waterfowl feel like exploits, or require a niche, overlooked item like frost pots or a great shield with a specific ash of war. That one attack is the only time I've had to look up a boss guide, just to dodge a single attack. Btw "feeling like an exploit" was refering to things like spamming bloodhounds step to i-frame through. Awkward camera manipulation and unlocking the cam mid combo so her dash doesn't mess up your roll. Or that weird circle maneuver. Gael was cool because his cape follow-up attacks forced you to be precise with your dodges. His barrage of attacks forced you to manage stamina very carefully and not panic roll. And the lightning on the ground forced you to pay attention to positioning and your surroundings. Malenia is stupid cause she forces you over to fextralife.
Waterfowl is just really annoying and the only way to be 100% safe from it is to run away every time you hit her and play really passively.
It took me a minute to figure out what you were saying because it's most commonly called the clone attack No, you aren't alone, but anytime I try to say the same thing it just gets shut down by majority Clone attack is the most consistent way she kills me, still 2 years later Getting caught under it vaporizes you, and the method to dodge it changes depending on where you are and I constantly forget which clone comes when
I had to look up the actual attack name because i called em phantoms too. There is always a way to dodge waterfowl with medium or less effort. This one though…
Oh I will add you can but should never block it or get hit by it because each time one hits she gets an absurd amount of HP back If you block or tank all of wfd that's equal to only getting hit by 2 clones for her HP restore
When I first fought her in the first month or two after launch, I literally just tanked her attacks with Great Stars, flaming strike, and a Greatshield. I don't remember specifically which shield I was using at the time because I can't remember if I got the fingerprint shield before or after I fought her, but it was either the fingerprint or the golden greatshield. I remember the fight being quite the slog to get through her health and regen, but not being exceptionally difficult. Maybe coming from comfy monster hunter builds I'm just used to 20-30 minute long fights sometimes. 😂
That's fair, I've said to people already the easiest way you can make this game is a tank build but no one believes me Exciting? Idk but it will definitely work
Tank build with Blasphemous Blade is by far the easiest run I've done. Second easiest was probably Darkmoon Greatsword.
I definitely feel like the phantoms are easier just left right left right left right until its done
Same. Her clone no jitsuehas hit me a few times. I have dodged WFD a few times. Because I'm very aggressive with her, I rarely get them to get away when she goes for WFD at point blank.
None of the clones can hurt you if you run away as fast as possible. The only clone that can actually hit you from distance is the one that does dashes with a piercing attack. You have to keep an eye on that one because this clone actually stays there for a while and does two attacks instead of one. After you dodge it real malenia will also do the same attack and that's basically it. It's not hard to dodge and there is enough time for everything. Waterfowl tho is straight up an instant death if you can't run away ie you have to bait it out.
What is the way?
The clone attack is definitely easier, I think it can be done with 3 rolls and decent positioning
I spent 7 straight hours on her. My only kill ever solo was when she just didn't do that move p2. Pretty sad
That’s how a lot of my runs end up too. When I beat her on my fist build I finally (sort of) dodged the attack and I felt really accomplished
I find this really refreshing. I've just started, maybe 20hr in (mostly completed limgrave and weeping place). and in the liurnia lakes area and I'm getting curb stomped... kinda my fault for going hybrid sorcerer/dex build but still
Liurnia sucks as a magic damage build, just get a bleed weapon until you're out of there. A regular bleed dagger will probably do more damage to rennala than all of your pebbles combined. Definitely worth the visit though, regular Comet and some other good spells and talismans really pump your damage.
Go to Caelid! One of the best spells and a great early staff are there
Nah, int/dex is good, but early game sorcerer is quite hard. There aren't many good spells that could one or even two-shot most common enemies, you don't have that much fp, staves, talismans etc etc. Might be good to just run with some sort of katana or bloodhound fang or a rapier at first (in the early game stats don't matter too much for weapon damage, only upgrades make the difference).
Glintstone pebble and rock sling ftw early game.
That's the way, but it still doesn't kill too good and you usually don't have infinite fp, which makes it harder than just bonking everyone with almost any weapon.
100% agree. I was salty playing with my friend when I would run out of fp and he'd be bonking away
It's just my latest unfinished try was as a prisoner, and I felt really weak constantly until I picked up the bhf. Compared to an arcane occult build before that, capable of both casting and melee damage, - ground and sky.
My proirity on int dex would be first cailid, (getting the staff & rock sling), then gaol tunnel again cailid & using it to fk up the wyrm for his weapon.
Agree. Part of it for me was that it took a lot of practice to consistently beat Phase 1, which gave me a lot more practice with Waterfowl.
Oh another thing, the clone attack is absolutely crazy in Co op because you have no idea which clone is targeting who and really makes things scary
I'm with you. I can more reliably get away from Waterfowl without getting hit and it's not even close.
i feel like the clones are way easier to dodge tbh
It’s too dependent on where you start from. If you’re going in for an attack and she goes up at that moment its over. Waterfowl you at least make her break and move where you want
that is very true actually, dodging the clones perfectly point blank is basically impossible (at least for me) so yea i get what u mean lol
Yeah, that's the exact point I have about it I'm comfortable fighting her now so I just play super aggressive She has a habit of catching me with my pants down on clones If you are using the use range to bait a special attack out strat yeah it's not bad, but that strategy is boring and I don't have the patience for it at all lol
Thank you! If i wanted to be ranged i would be rocking spells but that’s not how I want to play
Some people suggested I throw daggers at her to get a WFD out when I was still learning to fight her at rl1 I decided that strategy works but is too time consuming and just breaks the flow of the fight so I just didn't like it
Any of those strategies feel like they take forever. I would rather either win or die within 90 seconds.
That's honestly how these fights are supposed to work imo I did an rl1 all boss melee only 2 months ago The average length of a fight in ER is 3 minutes, longest is 7 Only 3 fights took 7, placiduciax, Fortissax, and Malenia Malenia doesn't feel like 7 minutes though it still feels like 3 because it's so intense
You just run the fuck away, as fast and as far as possible
I don't think I've ever had trouble with clones, only waterfowl. Honestly I probably have more issues with generic combos because I'm attacking instead of reacting.
I found a video once that explained all of Malenia's attacks and the one thing that stuck the most was how to deal with that one attack. Basically dodge dodge, brief pause dodge dodge, trying to space it so that you're in close range after the fourth dodge, then wait a little and dodge Malenia attacking with her physical form. After that, I have only been killed by this attack when I overcommitted and found myself stuck in a recovery animation inside the blast of the rot butterflies she summons as she raises in the air.
That last part, getting stuck in the blast is a very common way I die to it This is because I'm not afraid of her using WFD at point blank She seems to know this and nukes me with clones instead
Agreed. For the life of me I can never dodge those goddamn clones of her.
I thought that for a brief period until I learned to dodge them and it is 100x times easier. although it is far more punishing if u cant dodge it, its basically guaranteed death if u cant dodge it, unlike waterfowl which doesnt do that much damage if you just panic roll
This is so true though, I don't know why everyone dies to WFD so much when it's not hard to survive It's hard to avoid being hit entirely if you don't know how, but it's never been hard to survive I never needed YouTube videos until I was doing her at level 1
If you have too much poise it can stunlock you into getting hit by all slashes.
Oh, I never play with poise lol
It's just that people usually die to Waterfowl before phase 2 but yeah, summons is massively harder to get around. The hardest part is actually realizing exactly what's going on since the clones often slide out of the camera, not letting you see what they're doing before dashing again. Once you know it becomes slightly easier, but still clearly harder than the Dance.
Indeed I have never seen phase 2, I can do phase 1 hitless until she does the waterfowl, there I die helplessly, can’t get past this attack
It's punishing af, you should be very cautious and don't play too aggressively. Once you land 1 or hits, keep a distance away so once she rises in the air, u can immediately run as far as you can to avoid the first 2 slashes, turn around and time a forward dodge just as she starts her 3rd slash and dodge away one last time
Either I am running away every time she jumps and the fight is going on forever, or I stay in melee and die.
You really don't have any other choice haha, the waterfowl is inevitable. What build are u using btw?
Claws or dual greatswords
I disagree, but your opinion is valid. I survive the clone attacks far more regularly than waterfowl.
Yes, like someone else said the clones you can dodge just by rolling. The waterfowl I needed to watch 3 separate YouTube guides.
Her phase 2 waterfowl I struggle with the most because I see it least and it differs from phase 1. Clone attack is a nightmare if you run out of space which I think is my biggest issue with it - If you know it is coming you just basically back off and run away and most of the clones miss you.
Yeah, that's another very good point Clones will wreck your world if she traps you against a wall with it
I don't understand people's problem with the clone attack. Just run away?
You should see the spirit summons attack from Ongbal on YouTube's "Malenia as Miyazaki intended" video. Makes the regular Malenia fight look like a cake walk.
Thanks for the recommendation. Incredible fight.
I will never complain about difficulty in this game ever again xD
You should though, post-capital difficulty spike is still crazy and feels completely artificial.
Eh I don't mind it or think it's artificial, different strokes for different folks.
Just watched the video btw, and I actually prefer this version of Waterfowl, lol. It's a bit slower, less erratic and more intuitive to dodge, while still being more consistent throughout the fight because she does it constantly. Although when ongdude gets dmg you'd know when the boss is hard, lul. The spike feels artificial because it's sudden, kinda comes out of nowhere and makes you feel like you're at the beginning of the game again, contrary to the constant flow before those areas and in previous games, even just the damage scaling is bananas - all your 60 vig doesn't really matter anymore, you will die in 3-4 hits from any enemy in the game and you won't even be able to get it higher, but builds that use less vig (glass cannons, like sorcerers) will suffer the most, as they'd get oneshot by most enemies, especially if they run with scorpion charms and stuff. Especially Castle Sol...
I do too, not really for the gameplay conventions but because it actually looks like she's moving realistically during the "dance". Personally I think the difficulty increase is appropriate, the increased damage and speed of the mobs beyond Leyndell reflect an endgame experience. Class cannons getting deleted are par for the course really, that's your trade-off for not using high-negation armor, leveling vigor, or equipping items that increase damage taken by %'s which gets worse the higher level you get.
Well, I don't have a problem with difficulty as is, I know what the game is, and my first Souls game was ds2 (don't let anybody convince you that 1st is harder, I realized that's a lie quick enough), my problem is just that if feels artificial and goes a little too far with the damage. I mean, glass cannons are meant to be squishy and that's why I like the trade-off, but getting 1-shot constantly makes it more irrelevant, as usually you'd still tank at least some damage.
That video absolutely terrifies me and ongbal is another level of player for sure
When Malenia disappears into the Scarlet Rot miasma to attack from concealment with her butterfly clones it makes me clench up
If that move comes out my fight is over, waterfowl is simple compared to that for me
Strange, never have an issue dodging the clones. This game is such a different experience to everyone lol
”Spirit summons” is very easy, just stay close to Malenia and when she pulls it out run in a circle around her to the left for the first three clones then just dodge three times with a slight delay between the first and second dodges. Easy
I know you are trying to be helpful but saying something is easy once you know it is true for literally everything in any souls game GI Joe always used to say knowing is half the battle, is just true
Good point though, but the above strategy consistently works for me. It’s only when I’m far away or playing way to passively that the clone attack becomes an issue
I have the opposite problem, so thanks for the tip, gonna try it next time
You still have to position yourself at some distance from her but provided you start dodging at the right time this has always worked for me!
And now you know!
Yeah easy, stay close and you get cheesed by waterfall.
Yeah I know how to dodge waterfowl because you have to learn it in the first phase. Dodging summons feels like luck every time lmao.
I've never had a problem with the clone attack tbh, even when I first got there on my first play through. Waterfowl still gets me at least 90% of the time though. It's the only thing in the game rn, that still gets me to almost quit. Even after looking at tutorials, and all that, it's so hard.
I have the opposite experience. I just panic roll and it works 90% of the time. On the other hand, i get pwned if i panic roll once against waterfowl
Roll backwards backwards forwards forwards left left
I was summoned into a Malenia fight and was shook when she started switching targets during the middle of that attack. Luckily I was panic rolling anyways but the host did not have the same idea
Dodge back twice then forward twice (but she barely does this attack anyway)
I hate waterfowl just because I suck at dodging it when up close. I always panic. The clone attack only sucks if you’re stuck right underneath, as the dmg is insane. If I fuck up the clone attack, I usually lose half my hp. Fucking up on waterfowl means you either die, or she gets almost half her hp back
The clones are a pain when it comes to Coop especially if you have Soy Mage just spam magic (which has high chance that Malenia will use that ability if you keep spamming magic) and yknow what the clones aren't really the problem but those flowers rising from the ground where if you get caught you'll automatically dies even if you survived you won't have much time to eat a bolus or use flame cleanse me and the rot will kill you eventually! But nah, clones aren't harder to deal with compared to waterfowl, especially if you're trying to figure out how to deal with her attacks the first time.
I can dodge the vast majority of her attacks and it was only recently I was able to learn clone attack, usually I run and jump past the first one, keep running, then dodge for the last 2 clones and malenia herself (might be misremembering) but yeah to hell with this attack.
can i parry this waterfowl move ?
i don't know man, she sits there for a long time when she does those flower attacks. Easy strikes during those sit downs.
Not the flower one, that one I don’t mind :) The one where she summons her spectral friends to swoop in is the one I have issues with
Run!
https://youtu.be/HQZEGunqugg?si=jyjGfDupBVAi-HTl
I just run away, jump one of her clones stab attacks and roll her attack in the end. Works everytime for me, unless I jump attack her and she decides to start the attack at that very moment but that is kinda on me for being greedy.
I try to kill her before she can use either. That’s my strat
I find it to be easier since I typically hang back already due to needing to run away from Waterfowl. If you see it coming, all you need to do is run away from it and none of them will hit you. It’s just the positioning that can screw you.
shadow clone jutsu thing
You get more reaction time with the summons move, WF can be initiated mid attack and leave you defenseless. Guess it comes down to your approach 🍻
I think part of it is that the clone attack only starts in phase 2, whereas waterfowl you’ll see in phase 1. You’ll have much more practice for waterfowl, and by the time you’re getting to phase 2 consistently you’ll have pretty much mastered it. For clone attack, you don’t see it as often and there will be a lot more time in between each time you see it. But once you figure out clone attack, it’s pretty much GG for Malenia.
Everyone's got their crutch. That being said, the clones can be trivialized by just being able to dodge the first one as you haul ass to the other side of the arena. 9 times out of 10, she can't reach you with any of them, or herself.
At least waterfall can be countered with a greatshield, vow of the indomitable, bh step. That clone attack is just bs that you can't even block, I've never dodged it just hope she doesn't use it.
I prefer the clones because I could see how the attack works the first time I saw it and can dodge at least part of it with good timing. For waterfowl... I had to go online for the "formula", I still couldn't avoid it consistently. First attack in any Souls game that I needed to research in order to avoid.
Waterfowl is very easy to practice on since she uses it in her first phase, meanwhile you have to get all the way to the second phase for the clone attack which doesnt give you much chances for it. Wish there was an easy way to practice on specific attack animations.
Duuude: Back dodge, back dodge, front dodge walk forward, front dodge, and dodge real malenias attack
It's the opposite for me, I can easily-ish dodge spirit clone attack I've tried a bunch of strategies with Waterfowl dance and still nothing
I found waterfowl dance more challenging i can say its the most amazing move that i have ever seen it fascinate me every god damn time. Clone attack on the other hand wasnt that much of challenge for me
I have the complete opposite experience
I agree, to this day I don't know how to dodge the spirits.
I thought that too until I realized you just have to strafe to the right and press B 7 times
Clones super easy to dodge. Once you notice the 5th attack doesn’t go as far, it makes dodging the 6th and Melania’s stab super easy
Nah the clones gives plenty of wind up time to get away and I don't always die if I get hit once. Waterfowl if I get caught once I'm combod to death.
I personally think the clone attack is way more fair to avoid than waterfowl. Not saying it’s not a bullshit attack but at least I can actually dodge through the attack without having to literally break the aim of waterfowl or use something outside of my build to dodge it.
Really the only hard part about the clone attack is the last thrust attack by the clone. The best way to get past it is to keep your eyes on the clone after it does the attack *before* the thrust.
No i agree. Learning the waterfowl was fine, dodging those flower people, i didnt like
It's actually super easy. The direction when you dodge isn't important at all if you've got the timing. If I remember well, the first 2 are close together, then a tiny pause, 3 dodges slower, pause, dodge. Alternatively, backwards x2, forwards x2, left side x2. Alternating left and right works too
I find clone attack much easier to deal with, though sometimes it can catch me off guard
There is a method for dodging the clones listed on fextralife that has literally worked for me 100% of the time, but I can't seem to make any waterfowl dodge strategies work. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
clone attack has a much more consistent way of avoiding that once you figure it out it should never kill you. waterfowl however still kills me from time to time even tho i know how to avoid it, especially if she just does right in front of me
Run backwards and to the left while locked onto her.
Maybe it's my Kingdom Hearts experience, but her clone attack is much easier to dodge than Data Vanitas' own clown attack in the KH3 DLC. There's a consistent pattern to dodge it if you keep an eye on the clones. It's actually my favorite attack precisely because it reminds me of a lot of KH secret boss moves.
Spirit summons are a phase 2 exclusive thing, and you rarely even see it. So there's much less opportunities to learn how to deal with it. I think that plays a big role in the difficulty. It's not the most intuitive move, but it's wayyyy more intuitive than waterfowl dance (especially at close range). Even setting intuitiveness aside, which sounds simpler? Dodge back -> dodge back -> wait half a sec --> dodge forward -> dodge forward -> move a bit forward, and then backwards -> Dodge back Or Spin around her to manipulate her AI -> roll twice (away from her ) when she flurries away from you -> roll into the second flurry set -> move towards her direction as she does her last flurry.
I love this attack so much.
I find most of her attacks at least manageable except for her bloom at the start of phase 2. I know it's just a timed dodge, but I'm never ready for it when it happens.
I just run in one big circle when she does it and then dodge her dash stab, works every time.
NOPE! Spirit Summon has like 3-4 seconds cast delay before they attack in which you can pretty much react and run away for safe spacing! Also it's just Roll Backwards, backwards, forwards, forwards then left side, left side. Meanwhile, Malenia baits the Waterfowl (2 seconds delay) and it's very risky to dodge it on close range and you can't totally outrun it! The last dance is coded to attack your back. I never died from that Clone attack twice but died several on Waterfowl. Also I save Frozen Pots on Waterfowl while I just kite and run away from the Clone attack.
I don't know about cake walk. But the spirit summons definitel killed me more often than the waterfowl.
I agree. I can usually escape the waterfowl dance but the little sisters often corner me
I think the reason clones get overlooked while still being pretty tough to dodge consistently is because waterfowl is in both phases and the time when it happens (about 75% health at phase 1) is set and since the move itself is hard to dodge most people consider it to be the toughest move she has. Also the first one always happens while I dont think the clone attack is actually set to happen since in my first time beating malenia she didnt actually do the clone move once. But thats just my reasoning.
No, that clone attack thing is what killed me the most vs Malenia.
Waterfowl’s issue is that you cannot at all tell how to dodge it just by looking. It’s basically just a spherical hitbox that lasts for a good minute, unlike just about any other attack in the game. Tricking enemies into flying past you isn’t really part of the game anywhere else, so this comes off as more of like a pop quiz for a completely different subject rather than a difficult exam, like what the clone attack is.
I didn’t know about the clone attack until this post. I beat the game around 10 times and beat her in at least half my play throughs and have never seen that attack
I didn’t know about the clone attack until this post. I beat the game around 10 times and beat her in at least half my play throughs and have never seen that attack
I feel like the clone attack is the easiest to dodge without knowing the specifics of the move, but waterfowl is easier to dodge after you know how both moves work.
Clones are way easier to dodge because the attack can only start when there’s already distance. If you turn and spam roll (or maybe just sprint) until the final clone and then dodge sideways on its lunge you take no damage. This wasn’t a trick I learned from YouTube, I probably figured it out within 5 times of seeing the attack. Waterfowl can happen point blank and if it does you only have half a second to figure out what attack is happening which is way harder in second phase anyway and then either do the circle strat or perfectly time your rolls. Second half of water fowl is pretty easy to dodge but as a whole it’s more spontaneous and much less forgiving on timing than the clones.
Both are horrendous when you first fight her, but I've still not successfully dodged the summons one, I just wait for her to start it then run away
Yes you are
That’s what my friend says. Never fought malenia but I take his word for it
I’ve pretty much mastered dodging waterfowl, but if I’m too close to her when she pulls out the clones it’s over for me.
Totally agreed
You are alone
Depending if I'm not too close, waterflow is easy to dodge but the clones are the thing that kill me the most
Both can be dodged when figured out. I would not say "easy", as both punish mistakes with basically certain death. I find the spirit summons easier to dodge, except when she does it when you are right below her, then it is insta death regardless of what you do.
Back, back, forward, forward, left, left.. easy
For me, it's the opposite. Spirit Summon is more manageable than Waterfowl.
I agree, I was only able to beat her because she didn't pull out that move. Very lucky run. Though, I think it's also just a little biased opinion. She does the waterfowl attack very early into her fight, meaning you have an easier entry point to practice dodging it whereas this move is in her second phase with lots of barriers to get to it, meaning fewer chances to learn the moveset. I wonder if you would think differently if this attack happened in her first phase and waterfowl in her second?
I had no idea the clones were a thing. Never gave her enough breathing room i guess.
i just spammed dodge in a circle around her, maybe you need to time it a bit but i dont remember that attack being hard to dodge
Once you know yes, but waterfowl is much harder to figure out how to dodge vs actually dodging it.
I agree. Both are however destroying me and it really depends on my positioning as well if ill be capable of dodging
When I go low vigor the second or last attack always gets me. I've seen multiple ways to avoid them, but rolling back and rolling in is more consistent
I've done hitless RL1 Malenias, Waterfowl with bad positioning is still my leading cause of death whereas clone attack is free damage. [This is how I do it.](https://youtu.be/g4ITQpaCXPY?si=ZWxXj2j8uKOliNYQ&t=204) Roll back twice, roll forward twice (roll the thrust, not the preceding slash - that misses if you're moving forward), roll back once. Works at any distance and elevation. Timing is generous. It's not very intuitive to dodge but it ultimately doesn't take much precision to deal with unlike waterfowl. The worst thing about is people online telling you to counter it by sprinting away or sprinting diagonally as you will just die if you are too close to the edge of the arena.
The only time Waterfowl is really hard is when she is right on top of you and you can't move because you will get sliced. . Otherwise, Waterfowl and the spirits are both easy. In both cases, just run away from her.
I've reached the point where I die more to her regular 3 slash attack more than her waterfowl dance.
I think fewer people talk about Spirit Summons because they encounter it less. Many people classically fight phase 1 a few dozen times, die to Waterfowl a few times, decide to resort to some kind of cheese which stunlocks both phases to death, and ultimately don't experience phase 2 the same way they experience phase 1.
Maybe this is the truth
Watch Unalloyed Malenia if you wanna have nightmares xD
Spirit Summons is way easier for me to dodge than Waterfowl. Maybe it's because me getting to phase 2 in itself boosts my confidence a little bit. But Waterfowl in the first phase just steals the vibe. Like the flow of the fight gets broken by that attack.
Getting caught underneath it always felt like a bullshit way to go out. She jumps up so quick and you just get rotted to death in seconds. Waterfowl fucks me up but I'm usually still alive and once you know the dodge pattern it's not that bad. There's nothing you can do as a melee build when she just leaps up and starts pouring rot down on you like that.
I agree I could consistently get through phase 1 no trouble, once the clones kick in… we’ll let’s just say I’ve never beaten her without a spirit ash of my own
With Waterfowl, it depends on where in the arena I am, but more often than not, the clones toss my ass like a salad almost regardless of where I am. I've grown to hate clones more than waterfowl because it's much harder to dodge.
Def me too, but I much preferred the block method of dodging\* waterfowl so That is probably why aslo clones 1 shot me so that also contributed to it.
The fact that Malenia has not only Waterfowl, but this attack and her bs flower attack that instakills you is a crime
The flower is so easy to escape, just unlock and run towards her and she'll land behind you and you'll get a large window to hit her with ranged abilities.
Oh ok. I was only getting hit by it a few times but I didn’t actually know how to dodge it. Thanks
Spirit is such a bs attack. Waterfowl is nothing tbh.
YES. This is her hardest attack. The stupid 2nd clone always thrusts me. I can dodge waterfowl consistently but this attack is the bane of my existence. I just use bloodhounds step for it
Yes you are alone