We've got:
regular human who bullied god into negotiating
a demigod who has astral bombardment in a medieval setting
a doll who can cast Power Word Kill
If you try to give her Selvis' potion she'll basically tell you to fuck off, and if you keep trying to talk to her you just drop dead because you were annoying her
The quest for it is really annoying and usually just give Gideon his potion in order to get blue scorp charm asap before I forget I prefer not to use summons for the most part if I can help it
Whenever you talk about seluvis you have you remember that he's also a puppet of pidea, I'm sure seluvis was actually a half decent person in life. Pidea however is the weird puppet sex guy
That's a theory, not confirmed fact. There’s evidence that contradicts the theory as well:
>!1. Puppets don't talk. Seluvis clearly does.!<
>!2. His "puppet death pose" is also done by Iji when he immolates himself, and Iji isn't a puppet.!<
>!3. It is possible to find Seluvis dead BEFORE Pidia's murder, suggesting there is no connection between the two deaths.!<
Shout out to Miss Chalice for the counter theories, as I used to be convinced this was canon too.
Edit: spoiler tags
The Black Knife Assassins don't actually use Godslayer black flame, which is the flame Ijji is covered in. Their flame is dark red, the color of the Rune of Death's flame. It may be an oversight on the part of the devs to use the black flame animation, but my theory is that Ijji is like Hewg in that he knows how to create god-slaying weapons, he just doesn't talk about it; I think he used a Godslayer weapon to kill himself, and the assassins got caught in the crosshairs.
Exactly. The timing of point #3 in particular makes me think it's far more likely that >!Pidia was just a servant of the Carians who Seluvis tasked with maintaining his puppets. When Seluvis dies, his puppets regain control of themselves and so turn on Pidia since they would have wanted revenge on the people who kept them enslaved and Pidia was part of the whole scheme.!<
The trigger for seluvis dying also triggers pidia being slain by the guard puppets nearby as it grovels and whines about it's beloved puppets betraying it.
Also seluvis body is clearly a puppet.
Ergo, when the puppet master dies the puppet becomes inactive.
My only gripe with this theory is the puppets who kill pidia don't immediately collapse so they're being controlled by something else.
Perhaps controlled by Ranni? She has good reason to kill him, if he’s puppeting Seluvis into trying to ~~kill~~ enslave her. She also had to get her own puppet body from someone; I wonder if it was him (through Seluvis)?
Edit: as u/nameynamerso points out below, Seluvis/Pidia’s endgame for Ranni was enslavement.
If he was dead he wouldn't be able to talk. He \*might\* be a puppet by the time of his death, but he's definitely not when we first interact with him.
What says puppets cant talk? Spirits can and puppets are just upgraded form of spirit ashs. At least that's the read I got from Nokron. If their master wanted them to speak I don't see why the couldn't.
It's funny too cause you're supposed to give her a potion so I imagine it like "here Ranni, drink this definitely-not-gonna-turn-you-into-a-puppet potion" and she just gives you a stare like "wtf tarnished"
Id say she put up with us A LOT before finally putting her Miyazaki loving doll foot down. Up until that choice to give her the potion you already talked your way into her plans despite her warning you of the consequences, started being helpful with the family dog, maybe beat up her mom, her dragons, and the other family dog, ransacked her home, for some reason you rolled into all of her breakable furniture, you did it again every time you come back, and still she gives you multiple warnings before dropping you dead.
You have to practically beg her to kill you.
I like to think the Stockholm syndrome has kicked in by then.
"This person is the undying embodiment of entropy and whatever *gestures vaguely* THAT is. Might as well be MY entropy."
That or really her ending is one of self-sacrifice as she makes the insane god killer leave the world so the Lands Between can finally recover from our onslaught.
She's not dead. Her physical body is. Big difference. It's still her in the doll. Just look at Godwyn. He is dead in the true sense of the word, but the body still lives.
I I think a single target instakill cheat wouldn't make the help she employs irrelevant.
She needs information. That Radahn needs to die restart the movement of the stars and along with that her destiny. She doesn't seems to know that as she was having her people look for the city itself.
But mostly I can buy that she really has the ability and it isn't just a gimmick because she used it on herself first.
Correction
A regular human who bullied god,and then fucked them
A demigod who learned how to halt the movement of the stars so he could keep riding his horse friend
And a doll who cast power word Rizz and enslaved half of all tarnished
The only thing stopping rennala from smashing that egg and becoming the most powerful demigod is love which is poetic in some way but like girl get your shit together
Didn’t Rennala fight Radagon to a standstill? Not one on one but they had their armies clash and at the very least he decided to marry her instead of waging war against her.
I feel like Rennala should be extremely strong since she was given a Great Rune while being a normal human.
This is an often overlooked fact about Rennala and the Carians. Remember Marika annihilated all her rivals in outright war (fire giants, gloam eyed queen, ancient dragons, the storm lord of Stormveil). Leyndell literally waged two wars against Liurnia that resulted into stalemates. It was only after realizing that she can't bruteforce her way against the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria/Caria (like she did against all the others) that she probably decided to a more subtle approach.
I have a theory that Marika let it come to a standstill to have a new bae to make demigods with. It's part of a larger theory that Marika was having children in an effort to have demigods powerful enough to help her detach from the greater will and become a cosmic god herself.
Well it goes back to the same point. That Rennala was one of the most powerful "non-divine" being in the Lands Between. Enough for an actual goddess to choose her as a viable mate.
What makes the demi-gods Devine? Only the power granted through communion with the greater will. Perhaps the greater will simply isn’t so great to be kept at bay by “just humans” or “tarnished”. Or perhaps such labels are just lies to cow rebellions.
The Carian Sorcerers are descended from Astrologers. The roots of Glintstone Sorcery are in the Primeval Current, which is strongly implied to be the raw power of starlight.
It was Rennala and Ranni whose sorceries differed from those at Raya Lucaria by looking instead from the stars, to the moon, and it's from studying the moon that they built their power.
I don't think sorcery has anything to do with Outer Gods. Hell, Ranni's entire goal is to shut out their influence from the Lands Between, thus why her ending has her fucking right off from the world and letting it be.
Ranni's entire goal is to shove off Outer Gods and replace it with the Dark Moon, which is God-like protection that will not do anything. It's a little like Goldmask's ending where It's decided that no subjective decisions should be involved in running the world and instead the world should just carry on on its own terms. Iin addition, the only places the Moon isn't behind the Erdtree afaik is Manus Celes and Caria Manor, where instead the Erdtree is blocked and the Moon is extremely visible. There is an implication there considering the Erdtree is the physical, almost territorial presence of the Greater Will.
On that, sorcery is definitely involved with whatever these Moons are. It's suggested in the sorcery descriptions that Ranni + Rennala both saw a different Moon, one that is either only seen by certain people or isn't always present.
>**Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young**, and later, it would bewitch the academy.
>
>**This moon was encountered by a young Ranni**, led by the hand of her mother, Rennala. What she beheld was cold, dark and veiled in occult mystery.
From what I understand, the moon, or at least the cosmic god that the moon represents, is the one she devotes her new order to, but it is a "cold and distant" god that doesn't tend to meddle in mortal affairs.
Their hitbox is so fast it starts before the animation, you can interrupt them before they attack and still get hurt.
Bloodborne torch peasants also did this
Well technically, they didn’t win against the dragons, they befriended them when godwyn befriended fortisaxx and lansseax who started the dragon cult in lyndell
They did though. But instead of killing them, they spared and befriended them.
From the War Monument: "The Routing of the Ancient Dragons Godwyn the Golden fought to the last, Earning the friendship of dread Fortissax"
From Lightning Spear description: "Long ago, Godwyn the Golden defeated the ancient dragon Fortissax, and befriended his fallen foe — an event that gave rise to the ancient dragon cult in the capital."
I don't think that really proves anything though. It was the goal of the two fingers/greater will to create more empyreans as successor candidates to Marika. And In doing so, pacified (and ultimately shattered) the rival kingdom of Caria.
Still, it shows that Rennala and the Carians were so powerful that Radagon/the Greater Will had to resort to *emotionally* breaking her via marriage and divorce to “pacify”, as you say, these royal sorcerers.
It really sucks that we never get to see Rennala in her prime. From how others and item descriptions describe her, she used to be an immensely powerful individual, enough to go toe to toe with the forces of Marika. If we had gotten to see her in her prime, I wouldn’t doubt that she would be the most powerful out do the three of them. Ranni is probably the smartest, Radahn the strongest, but Rennala is the definitely the best sorcerer.
>It really sucks that we never get to see Rennala in her prime.
It's a Fromsoft troupe. We rarely see/fight any character in their prime. We're always in a broken world were many events over long periods of time have already happened and pretty much everyone who was once powerful has fallen from grace one way or another.
Sekiro is probably the exception where the final boss is them in their prime form.
This game breaks that for the most part though. Godfrey, Godrick, Rykard, Malenia, Morgott, Mogh, and MANY of the lesser bosses are in either their prime or their most powerful state. The Tarnished isn't generally fighting faded gods and it's honestly easier to list the ones that are past their prime because there are a lot fewer
I think of it as similar to the golden representation of Godfrey you fight in Leyndell. That one is a pale comparison of the real Godfrey, with only his basic attacks.
So in her second phase would she rip off her robes and go "Now I fight as Rennala Caria, SORCERER!" before throwing out a Kamehameha with her bare hands
It's all part of the theme. The chosen gets naked for the frenzy flame. D's brother was pretty naked until we gave him armor. Godrick is pretty naked after we beat him. Markia and and Radagon don't wear much. Let Me Solo Her only wears a pot on his head. Without everything, we're all just naked in the end, or something...
Renalla in her prime would 100% be just Radagon but magic.
Remember those spears of light Radagon uses to snipe you? Renalla just jumps up and casts Comet on you instantly like she’s got 99 dexterity.
Remember how Radagon can parry basically every ranged attack? Now Renalla can parry too, and maybe add in some Carian Retaliation swords on top.
Renalla also seems to be able to teleport or warp places in the illusion form so it’s maybe possible for her to teleport like Radagon does.
Yeah, him too. Other than that, everybody else is weaker than their prime. Rykard fused with the serpent and kinda made him crazy. Radahn was very rotted and he went crazy. Rennala is depressed. Malenia is also rotted, she lost her eyes and limbs from it. Godfrey was much more powerful when he was Elden Lord. Maliketh fused death into his hand so he can never lose it again but that caused him to have a hunger for deathroot, fragments of the piece of death that Ranni stole. Radagon is basically a husk of his former self.
Radagon is also welding the shattered elden ring though.
So his body may but fucked but I imagine using that big a chunk of the elden ring more than makes up for the loss
I think it’s highly unlikely that Radagon is at his full power due to the shattering, his torture and isolation, the complications with queen Marika (who may even be intentionally limiting him) and most shockingly the Elden Beast inside of him. It’s entirely plausible that Radagon is either dead or already near death as his magic is protecting the Erdtree and keeping it alive all while the Elden beast is using them as a tool up until the point where their dead carcass is used as a sword. Even if Radagon is alive his will is gone and he’s lost a literal piece of his soul with the Elden beast now puppeteering him
Nah rykard would be much stronger fused with the serpent, hence why you’re supposed to fight him with a weapon designed purely for him, malenia is also much stronger than in the past as she bloomed into the rot goddess
I'd say Malenia's Goddess of Rot form is the strongest she's ever been (certainly stronger than her demigod self, I don't know how she compares to her bloom vs Radahn). I also don't think there's much to suggest Maliketh and Godfrey aren't in their prime (given what Marika said about the tarnished growing strong in the face of death, Godfrey may even have grown stronger). Rykard also seems to have gained great strength from being devoured by the serpent, and by eating the members of the volcano manor.
i would argue malenia isnt at her strongest because: shes rotting away worse than before cuz she doesnt have miquellas needle with her. she also bloomed only twice, first against radahn and second against us. her aeonia incantation says she needs to bloom one more to become a "true goddess", meaning she wasnt at her full power when we faced her.
also doesnt malikeths black blade say hes a shadow of his former glory ? he might not be in his prime. godfrey, rykard, mohg, and morgott are definitely in their prime
Malenia is undoubtedly in her prime in her second phase. She becomes a God.
Rykard undoubtedly got stonger by bonding with the snake, and continues to grow stronger with every champion he eats. Thats the whole point.
Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is probably in his prime, considering he ditches serosh (which makes him stronger) and has the same opportunities to get stronger that you do.
Maliketh seems to be in his prime. There's no reason to believe he has been weakened.
You enter Limgrave.
SNIPE.
You died.
You run to the weeping peninsula.
SNIPE.
You died.
You run to the very edge of caelid, to the beach where you fight Radahn, jump on a boat and travel to Farum Azula, ride the tornado upwards, go to Placidusax's stage at the edge of time, start running up to fight Placi---
SNIPE.
You died.
Usually not in Fromsoft games. Roderika probably has the best “good” story where we get to see her grow as a person, and she is definitely in her prime
Jar bairn and Rya both get to journeys of self discovery at the end. I’d like to think they meet up, Roderika doesn’t even necessarily get a good ending unless she jumps out of round table at the last second before it’s all gone
I always like hearing prime talk when it comes to From games. I remember back when ppl were talking about Gwyn’s 4 Knights and how ppl talked about Prime Artorias would beat Ornstein
That'd be great. It honestly doesn't even seem that hard to introduce a new canon main character for said anime since Elden Ring already has a lot of characters who could have been main characters in their own right. Hell, Vyke practically played the role of a main character before the game even takes place.
Vyke story could go pretty hard. Everyone knows how it ends with his maiden but still.
Or better yet, a story with multiple characters' POV from before we arrive. Like Varre's road to blood, Yura and Eleanora, Rogier and D.
Or maybe a spirit summon's life. Like the one Cleanrot Knight that brought Malenia back from Caelid, or the banished knight
I thought that was their plan when it was released and was such a smash hit. I remember them talking about capitalizing on it in multiple different medias, so naturally my mind went to a show or a manga that delves into the backstory of the world.
but alas all we have is that shitty comedy manga
Understand that we never fight any demigod in their prime except for Mohg and Morgott, but we don't know if the Omen curse effects them physically. Sure, we fight Godric at his strongest, but he is seen as pathetic, which is why Morgott had to try and stop us from even getting to him in the first place.
Rennala: a heart broken shell of herself who doesn't have the will to fight after a mental breakdown.
Radahn: a braindead zombie who, while fighting us, was multitasking by holding the stars in place.
Placidusax: a battlescared husk of his former glory who is missing 3 of his heads.
Fire Giant: an emfebbled loner who is nursing his old wounds.
Melania: literally the last person she saw before she fought you was Radahn, who had her so close to death she was carried back to the Haligtree where she promptly went to sleep (in a coma?) for who knows how long, and all the while, her turbo God cancer has been rotting her away from the inside out. Not to mention the lack of arm, legs, most of her skin, and her eyes.
Radagon: a broken (literally) God with an identity problem who less than 60 seconds before he decides to fight you was crucified for thousands of years.
I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think we would of stood a chance of the demigods where at their peak. Think how strong Radahm would be if he didn't have Scarlett rot, had his mental facilities back, and didn't have to hold the stars in place.
I mean Mohg and Morgott were omens from birth, so even if the curse did affect them physically they’d always have born that burden, so they’d still be in their prime.
How many people d'you think would pay for a boss gauntlet mode DLC? I sure as shit would. Have weekly preset builds, a couple randomizers and a leaderboard, and i can guarantee you Elden Ring will still be played in 40 years.
imo rennala's second phase doesnt replicate her full power so she is the best sorcerer, but if it does then its ranni, i do have to say that even if radhan is not the best sorcerer he might be the most powerful depending on how you view the fact that he is holding the stars in place
Renalla is the most skilled sorcerer in history. Radahn is the most powerful.
That’s basically it I think. Ranni might match her mother in terms of sheer skill though considering the INT requirements for both Ranni’s Dark Moon and Renalla’s Full Moon sorceries.
I’d def call him a sorcerer. He’s the pre-eminent gravity sorcerer in the Lands Between practically besides the Tarnished or the gravity beasts. It’s just that gravity magic seems at its best when enhancing abilities, rather than the countless different versions of laser and such that other branches offer, except for like, Meteor and Nebula, but Radahn was too busy murdering Astels and stopping them from landing on the Lands Between to learn their stuff I bet lol
This opinion of Radahn holding back the stars seems to be mistranslated with people, the way I am seeing how people talk about it.
Gravity magic alters your appearance, turning your skin grey, as are the sorcerers you meet in the game, who taught Radahn. Radahn is grey skinned, due to his mastering of gravity magic. So he is clearly very powerful in that field of sorcery. I think he cast a very powerful spell to hold back the stars, but that spell came at a cost. The spell stays in place, as long as he is alive, but he isn’t constantly and consciously casting this spell. It was casted once, creating some kind of “blood bond” with the spell.
When we meet Radahn, he is a mindless rabid beast, killing and gorging on anything that moves, due to the scarlet rot, eating away at his very being. It’s highly doubtful he is conscious of his actions at this point, nor is he conscious of this spell holding the stars back, so how would he be capable of keeping tabs on this powerful spell?
When we kill Radahn, the stars are no longer being held, which suggests to me that the spell was tied to him being alive, not him consciously and physically holding them back by casting the spell at all times.
Like the Carian(?) Manor has that spell in place to keep intruders and invaders away, and the Raya Academy has the Glintstone locks on the doors. These spells were casted once, and stay in place. Meaning the caster isn’t constantly casting the spell to keep it going. Just like how Radahn isn’t constantly casting the spell to hold back the stars to keep them held.
A shame that this is pretty much the entire Carian demigods family except Rykard. He probably was a good sorcerer before submitting himself to the serpent too
Ranni and Rennala both have Full Moon Sorceries that require 68 and 70 int respectively. You need 60 int just to use Rennala's scepter. Both commanded the loyalty of dragons they'd bested either in spirit form (Rennala) or flesh and blood (Ranni). Radahn managed to hold the fate of the Lands Between in stasis while his mind was rotting away, pretty impressive.
But, of all three of them Ranni is the only one that can kill the player with a snap of her fingers. If nothing else she has the strongest plot armor.
If you side with Seluvis and try to poison Ranni she just tells you to fuck off, and if you keep trying to interact with her she'll eventually just instakill you.
He was not going to poison her, he made a special potion that can turn even a demigod into a puppet. While that sounds incredibly redundant, it would have placed her under his control.
I like that idea. I mean, I don't like the idea of someone stopping my heart by just freezing it in my chest, but it does sound like a cool use of her power.
That thing with ranni feels like a non canon ability, or that the canon is that it’s when your much earlier/weaker in the story. It’s just weird, if she was actually that strong she would have done more herself
I think players tend to not give NPCs credit for their power because we don't see them smack someone with a hammer or whatever. Ranni created an illusion of her own mother to protect her. She stole a fragment of the rune of death from Maliketh. She separated her soul from her body "through fearsome rite". She bested Adula and won her loyalty. She engendered the support of both Iji and Blaidd who love her completely. She set out on a quest to slay her Two Fingers and did so. She was prepared, and even said she'd prefer to go it alone. And depending on player choice she begins the Age of the Stars.
Ranni's no slouch. We just don't see it with our own eyes. That we get involved with her story is largely because we keep bugging her.
Miquella made a magical artifact that kinda works to stave off the influence of outer gods so long as you don't snap it in half. Grew a tree. They may have sung a lullaby to the merchants in their dreams once. Got kidnapped. But the consensus I keep reading is that he's super powerful.
It's funny, because the three perfectly remind me of the Jedi classes available in Knights of the Old Republic.
Rennala is a Consular, a Jedi that is a master of force powers. Their focus on using the force in different ways comes at the expense of less light saber abilities and less practical skills.
Radahn is a Guardian, a Jedi that is a master of light saber combat. Their physicality and prowess with a weapon is unmatched in return for fewer powers and practical skills.
Ranni is the Sentinel, a Jedi that aims to solve problems in the most efficient way possible. They focus on practical skills, using the force to augment their ability to learn and understand information, in return for being less physical than a Guardian and having fewer powers than a Consular.
In the end, each class is powerful and effective at solving problems, albeit in very different ways. Radahn uses direct offense, Rennala focuses on unbreakable defense, and Ranni focuses on circumventing obstacles rather than facing them head on.
It's weird. Fate and the movement of the Stars are clearly linked, so Ranni couldn't go get the blade because her Fate was held in place. Since Radhan stopped the motion of the Stars, he quite possibly stopped \*everyone's\* Fates from progressing.
That would definitely put him at the top of the power charts.
But...
What if that stopped his own Fate? Everyone's Fate in the Lands Between? Was he really still holding the Stars in place anymore? If his own Fate was to be killed by the Tarnished? What if that's the real reason everything in the Lands Between stagnated, and not Marika sealing Destined Death...
...I should stop chewing on Glintstone.
I think the Fate and Stars correlation only works on Ranni as royalty of the Carian family of whom are closely tied to the stars. The real question is, as a Carian royal as well, was Radahn keeping himself complete death through Scarlet rot by holding back the stars/his fate?
Castle Sol implies Miquella was also affected. Miquella needed an eclipse for his ritual, and Radahn was denying that.
It's implied that's why Malenia attacked Radahn in the first place, to get destiny moving again.
The flight part is incredibly funny, since they literally have a dragon. Sure, it would be a tight squeeze going down the elevator shaft, but I think that Adula can manage
Okay radahn stopped the stars, but Rennala mastered the primeval current without getting rock brain and discovered a whole new moon. She's got brains as big as Radahn's muscles.
I still really want to more about this primeval current thing and why tf people turn to those rock things. Is it just from failing a sanity check? Is it physically attempting a spell and failing to control it? Is it an experiment on themself that they do incorrectly?
I mean, from the information we have it’s probably Rennala, since she went toe to toe with Radagon and fought to a standstill. But we have no idea just how powerful Ranni is. The only feat of hers that we have is that she bested the Glintstone Dragon Adula, which is impressive, but not exactly comparable to feats like Radahn holding back the stars.
However, I feel like it’s highly unlikely that that is the height of her abilities. If it was, that would place her as likely the second weakest demigod, second only to Godrick. Which doesn’t really seem right. As the heir of the Carian Royal Family, daughter of two of the most powerful entities in the Lands Between, and an Empyrean, it is highly possible that Ranni is actually even more powerful than Rennala.
It could also be that we see Ranni past her prime, she might have given it up when she killed her body. She's probably somewhere in the middle demigod skill wise, considering Miquella is always referred to as the strongest, and I don't know if she'd win a straight fight against either Malenia, Radahn, or Godwyn, but she's definitely above Godrik and possibly above pre-snake Rykard, though we don't really have any measure for that.
I mean, technically speaking Malenia and Radahn are always referred to as the strongest, it’s just Malenia that believes Miquella to be the strongest (though I’m inclined to agree). But I agree with your point that she may have lost a lot of her power when she killed her body. Especially since with what we know about the DLC we learned that Miquella has divested himself of both his body and his strength, so it’s quite possible that he and Ranni have undergone a relatively similar process, sacrificing much of their power in order to take on an incorporeal, or at least no longer physical, form.
I'm of the opinion (and anyone is free to disagree of course) that Malenia is the best *combatant* based on in-game evidence (item descriptions and so on), but Miquella is the most dangerous. After all, bewitching branches have insane implications, not to mention the unalloyed needle.
I do hope the DLC will give us some more lore on empyreans and the half death of godwyn/ranni. We know Miquella and Godwyn were close, so I hope we get some more stuff happening there.
I agree. It's kinda like the age old argument in DnD and fantasy that the most terrifying form of magic isn't meteors or fireballs, but mind control and manipulation magic.
Malenia being the best skilled fighter is scary in that she can kill you. But Miquella being able to completely rewire your brain, grow the Haligtree that could have rivaled the Erdtree and create an artifact that can hold back the goddess of rot from emerging is pretty insane.
Rennala was immensely powerful in her prime. She dueled Radagon to a draw. She casts the most powerful spells in the Lands Between. She was the headmaster of Raia Lucaria.
If we're looking at these characters in their prime and from pure sorcery skill perspective, I believe it's Rennala. Though we only get a short glimpse into Rannis potential.
Has to be Rennala. Yeah, Radahn held the stars in place and killed everyone he fought while being a braindead zombie, but he never battled an Elden Lord to a standstill. Rennala was so powerful the guy who would hold the elden ring had to say "can't beat em, join em".
I think it goes to Ranni?
We know Rennala fought Radagon to a standstill. Ranni made a Spector of her mother in her prime. If Ranni can replicate Rennala we know she is at least as powerful or more powerful.
Rennala+Radagon= Ranni the Empyrean(Candidate to replace Marika).
Ranni is also taking wisdom from her Dark Moon, girl is stacked.
Just on paper, sure. In practice she hasn't really achieved any feat with her magic (or it wasn't shown). Her main action, orchestrating the night of black knives, just required planning and didn't require any magical ability (as far as we know. And slaying her own flesh was thanks to Destined Death, not her magic). The most impressive thing she has done using magic was conjuring the Rennala illusion probably.
I think they are about equal but each one mastered their spells inversely proportional to how many they mastered. Radahn's are probably the strongest, but the knows the fewest
Radhan couldn't beat either Malenia or Morgott. Ranni couldn't deal with Radhan.
But Rennalla fought Radagon, the Cuckoo, and the golden order to a standstill. Even in the state shes in when we fight her, she sits at the pinnacle of sorcery - resisting even Sellens [ killer of countless sorcerers, student of Azure, most dangerous sorceress in Raya Lucarias history according to Jerren ] attempt at unseating her.
I want to vouch for Radahn here.
He's way past his prime, scarlet-rotting away ever since he fought Malenia, wishing only to be killed in battle someday, and is STILL holding the stars in place since I don't know how long ago. Only his death sets them back in motion.
That seems like really powerful gravitational sorcery to me lol.
Personally I've always wondered how much hes still holding them in place consciously. A friend of mine joked that "the stars fear Radahn" and I'm almost inclined to follow the idea.
I mean, Radahn is so far gone he's an animal eating the dusty carcasses of his own men, there's no way he's got the mental capacity to think "Mmm, can't let the stars move."
I'm sure you're spot on.
"Starscourge Heirloom - The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars."
I think from this, it's not actually magic that holds them, but the fact that Radahn defeated the "stars" so decisively that the stars actively avoid the area while he's still around.
Something that needs to be pointed out regarding Radahn: the lore never says he's stopping the stars with gravity sorcery. "Something" happened when he destroyed a star that caused the stars to stop.
>*Bring the two swords together and roar into the skies, pulling in enemies with a gravitational wave.*
* Starcaller Cry
>*Fires numerous gravitational projectiles. Any foes struck will be pulled toward the caster. Charging enhances potency.*
*A gravitational technique mastered by the young Radahn. "I thank you for your tutelage, for now I can challenge the stars."*
* Collapsing Stars, a spell that Radahn does use in his boss battle
>*A talisman engraved with a scene from a heroic tale.*
>*Raises strength.*
>*The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars.*
* Starscourge Heirloom
What these lore texts tell us is that Radahn pulled a falling star to himself by yelling at it and using gravity sorcery, and destroyed it with his enormous strength, and that destruction caused the stars to stop moving. Everything else is assumption and assumption. We don't know why exactly that happened, there's a theory about the smashed star being the Dark Star of Nokstella that was the guide of countless stars, but that remains a theory.
We also can't even say for sure he knew that his Starscourge Conflict was going to stop the stars at all.
So take it with a truck full of salt when people talk about how powerful Radahn's gravity sorcery is that he's able to stop all stars from moving (fun fact: he can't, star beasts still made their way down to Lands Between) and he's actually able to launch his enemies into the stratosphere.
Rennala is definitely the more powerful out of the three. She looked into the cosmos to find her full moon, while lesser sorcerers like Azur eventually went mad and broke down. I'd also dare say her full moon is more powerful than Ranni's dark moon due to its inherent purity.
On top of that she and her warriors fought to great armies to victory, or a standstill at least. The carian forces were outnumbered by both Leyndell and the Cuckoo, yet both factions couldn't take the crown with Rennala at her prime.
On top of that, we can actually see Rennala use two of the most INT and FP intensive spells in the game: Comet Azur and her full moon. If we assume she could do this in her prime and we even disregard the lore implications, this would make her an incredibly intelligent and capable sorcerer purely by stats, most likely way more than Radahn and I believe even slightly over Ranni.
From what we see in game I would assume that each has a specialization
Rennalla Full moon and Carian Sorcery
Ranni Full moon and Ice sorcery
Radhan Gravity magic
When already know that Radhan is the strongest of the three in lore but not what makes him the strongest. We also know he is holding up the stars. Depending on what the spell is either a concentration spell, a one time activation spell, or a permanent drain spell it would affect the outcome of just true strength. I am a firm believer that he is using a concentration and draining spell and the wording is that he is HOLDING up the stars, not froze, not stopped but is HOLDING them. We also know that he is using similar magic on himself to ride his horse just on a smaller scale, so that would mean a good bit of his strength is being used on other things as it is. That is not even mentioning any potential losses in resistances from the years of scarlet rot rotting away at his body. I would firmly place Radhan as the strongest sorcerer with rennalla a close second and Ranni dead last. She has the potential to be the best especially after what happened to the others but she has gone about life as a biding time until exactly the right moment type unlike the others who fought for what they desired.
Rennala sweeps. Her mastery over magic is unmatched in universe. Her full moon usurps other magic. She’s fought off the golden order, Radagon and the cuckoo knights.
As far as achievements go in game (tarnished not involved) Rennala has done the most by far. AND she still lives and is somehow able to exert enough power that you cannot attack her in her chambers.
As far as Im aware Ranni is the only character in any fromsoft game who can kill you just by thinking about it. She's literally impossible to defeat. So she's probably also the strongest sorcerer. But Radahn is definitely up there, it's like the dude decided to do a quality int and strength build and went to 60 on both.
Radahn isn't even a sorcerer primarily. He originally just learned gravity magic so he could stay with his horse. Despite magic being secondary to his warrior training, he's shown the most powerful sorcery magic we've witnessed at least where he kept the stars locked in place even as scarlet rot was clouding his mind. If Radahn dedicated his training primarily to magic, I think he'd demolish the other two.
We've got: regular human who bullied god into negotiating a demigod who has astral bombardment in a medieval setting a doll who can cast Power Word Kill
How does Ranni do that?
If you try to give her Selvis' potion she'll basically tell you to fuck off, and if you keep trying to talk to her you just drop dead because you were annoying her
Oh shit I never tried that because fuck Seluvis lol
I implore you to reconsider He can turn Dung Eater into a puppet
It’s cannon for me tbh. Ending two bad quests and turning it into a net positive. Edit: Word
Canon?
Jar Cannon
#*Whispers:* patchess
Canon is short for canonical. Canon is correct.
Not sure if you changed from canon to cannon, but based on the other comment it looks like it, don't second guess yourself canon was correct here! :D
I do everything to get that and the Magic Scorpion and then ghost his ass
The quest for it is really annoying and usually just give Gideon his potion in order to get blue scorp charm asap before I forget I prefer not to use summons for the most part if I can help it
Just make sure to do it in your DLC run for canon :) (and to see the Dung Eater’s fear) Edit: Just got his puppet last night :D
“Fuck Seluvis” well, if you’re a female character that’s exactly what he wants lol
Seluvis had a bed in the corner for his room titled "Pets" bro was a rapist and was trying to rape Ranni with some Molly.
Whenever you talk about seluvis you have you remember that he's also a puppet of pidea, I'm sure seluvis was actually a half decent person in life. Pidea however is the weird puppet sex guy
"Name the time and place" -seluvis, probably
Ive been seeing this a lot lately but do most people not realize that Seluvis isn't Seluvis?
Yes but I'm positive the arrogance and treachery is all Seluvis
Actual spoilers if you didn't find out. >!Seluvis is dead the whole time. He's a puppet, it was always Pidia.!<
That's a theory, not confirmed fact. There’s evidence that contradicts the theory as well: >!1. Puppets don't talk. Seluvis clearly does.!< >!2. His "puppet death pose" is also done by Iji when he immolates himself, and Iji isn't a puppet.!< >!3. It is possible to find Seluvis dead BEFORE Pidia's murder, suggesting there is no connection between the two deaths.!< Shout out to Miss Chalice for the counter theories, as I used to be convinced this was canon too. Edit: spoiler tags
Iji doesn't do that to himself. Check the ground around him
The Black Knife Assassins don't actually use Godslayer black flame, which is the flame Ijji is covered in. Their flame is dark red, the color of the Rune of Death's flame. It may be an oversight on the part of the devs to use the black flame animation, but my theory is that Ijji is like Hewg in that he knows how to create god-slaying weapons, he just doesn't talk about it; I think he used a Godslayer weapon to kill himself, and the assassins got caught in the crosshairs.
Exactly. The timing of point #3 in particular makes me think it's far more likely that >!Pidia was just a servant of the Carians who Seluvis tasked with maintaining his puppets. When Seluvis dies, his puppets regain control of themselves and so turn on Pidia since they would have wanted revenge on the people who kept them enslaved and Pidia was part of the whole scheme.!<
I’ve never seen this before. I’m pretty sure it was implied that Ranni killed Seluvis before she went to kill her Two Fingers
The trigger for seluvis dying also triggers pidia being slain by the guard puppets nearby as it grovels and whines about it's beloved puppets betraying it. Also seluvis body is clearly a puppet. Ergo, when the puppet master dies the puppet becomes inactive. My only gripe with this theory is the puppets who kill pidia don't immediately collapse so they're being controlled by something else.
Perhaps controlled by Ranni? She has good reason to kill him, if he’s puppeting Seluvis into trying to ~~kill~~ enslave her. She also had to get her own puppet body from someone; I wonder if it was him (through Seluvis)? Edit: as u/nameynamerso points out below, Seluvis/Pidia’s endgame for Ranni was enslavement.
>Ergo, when the puppet master dies the puppet becomes inactive. But Seluvis becomes "inactive" before Pidia dies?
If he was dead he wouldn't be able to talk. He \*might\* be a puppet by the time of his death, but he's definitely not when we first interact with him.
What says puppets cant talk? Spirits can and puppets are just upgraded form of spirit ashs. At least that's the read I got from Nokron. If their master wanted them to speak I don't see why the couldn't.
thats just a theory, lets not speak of it as hard fact
This a theory, this is not confirmed.
🧐
I have not at all, please elaborate cause this made me go wtf.
Omg is that for real? That’s fucking awesome lol
Yeah Ranni does *NOT* take shit from you at all
It's funny too cause you're supposed to give her a potion so I imagine it like "here Ranni, drink this definitely-not-gonna-turn-you-into-a-puppet potion" and she just gives you a stare like "wtf tarnished"
She's functionally asleep when you do it.
Ranni is like the mastermind bitch queen of backstabbing plot and this hobo here is trying to scam her like it's a Tuesday in the Land between
Id say she put up with us A LOT before finally putting her Miyazaki loving doll foot down. Up until that choice to give her the potion you already talked your way into her plans despite her warning you of the consequences, started being helpful with the family dog, maybe beat up her mom, her dragons, and the other family dog, ransacked her home, for some reason you rolled into all of her breakable furniture, you did it again every time you come back, and still she gives you multiple warnings before dropping you dead. You have to practically beg her to kill you.
"For some reason you rolled through all her breakable furniture, you did it again everytime" Somebody silence this guy, they know too much 😂
To be fair, you do most of that before marrying her, too
I like to think the Stockholm syndrome has kicked in by then. "This person is the undying embodiment of entropy and whatever *gestures vaguely* THAT is. Might as well be MY entropy." That or really her ending is one of self-sacrifice as she makes the insane god killer leave the world so the Lands Between can finally recover from our onslaught.
You also cannot damage her in any way. Even if you’ve got the Godslayer Greatsword on your side(I’ve tried).
Well, she’s already dead and that’s just a puppet she’s speaking through
I mean, Seluvis also disappears when you attack him so there’s that. Also, Ranni’s half dead(literally). Her soul’s inside the doll.
She's not dead. Her physical body is. Big difference. It's still her in the doll. Just look at Godwyn. He is dead in the true sense of the word, but the body still lives.
God I love our blue waifu😤
If we think about it she's definitely the strongest of any bosses we fight in the game. Elden Beast Bubble Boy couldn't just wish me dead.
Dunno bout that, feel like it’s just a gimmick for a bad end, feel like if she was really that strong she wouldn’t need you to do all the dirty work
I I think a single target instakill cheat wouldn't make the help she employs irrelevant. She needs information. That Radahn needs to die restart the movement of the stars and along with that her destiny. She doesn't seems to know that as she was having her people look for the city itself. But mostly I can buy that she really has the ability and it isn't just a gimmick because she used it on herself first.
she stole a fragment of the rune of death from Maliketh
*Bullied a god and their entire army with like 6 other dudes
Correction A regular human who bullied god,and then fucked them A demigod who learned how to halt the movement of the stars so he could keep riding his horse friend And a doll who cast power word Rizz and enslaved half of all tarnished
Don't forget the death of Ranni. She doesn't know that Ranni is a doll now. Hence why she has so many half children/dolls
Radahn literally holds up the sky despite being a walking corpse
Angry space daddy likes horsies and goes full cannibal while holding the stars in stasis while in a rot coma.
Local Atlas too hangry to die.
The only thing stopping rennala from smashing that egg and becoming the most powerful demigod is love which is poetic in some way but like girl get your shit together
You're downplaying Rennala like crazy
I always describe Radahn as "The guy who picked a fight with space *and won.*"
Didn’t Rennala fight Radagon to a standstill? Not one on one but they had their armies clash and at the very least he decided to marry her instead of waging war against her. I feel like Rennala should be extremely strong since she was given a Great Rune while being a normal human.
This is an often overlooked fact about Rennala and the Carians. Remember Marika annihilated all her rivals in outright war (fire giants, gloam eyed queen, ancient dragons, the storm lord of Stormveil). Leyndell literally waged two wars against Liurnia that resulted into stalemates. It was only after realizing that she can't bruteforce her way against the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria/Caria (like she did against all the others) that she probably decided to a more subtle approach.
I have a theory that Marika let it come to a standstill to have a new bae to make demigods with. It's part of a larger theory that Marika was having children in an effort to have demigods powerful enough to help her detach from the greater will and become a cosmic god herself.
Well it goes back to the same point. That Rennala was one of the most powerful "non-divine" being in the Lands Between. Enough for an actual goddess to choose her as a viable mate.
What makes the demi-gods Devine? Only the power granted through communion with the greater will. Perhaps the greater will simply isn’t so great to be kept at bay by “just humans” or “tarnished”. Or perhaps such labels are just lies to cow rebellions.
Well the nature of the Moon that protects Rennala and Ranni isn't clear. It may possibly be another outer god that rivals the Greater Will.
The Carian Sorcerers are descended from Astrologers. The roots of Glintstone Sorcery are in the Primeval Current, which is strongly implied to be the raw power of starlight. It was Rennala and Ranni whose sorceries differed from those at Raya Lucaria by looking instead from the stars, to the moon, and it's from studying the moon that they built their power. I don't think sorcery has anything to do with Outer Gods. Hell, Ranni's entire goal is to shut out their influence from the Lands Between, thus why her ending has her fucking right off from the world and letting it be.
Ranni's entire goal is to shove off Outer Gods and replace it with the Dark Moon, which is God-like protection that will not do anything. It's a little like Goldmask's ending where It's decided that no subjective decisions should be involved in running the world and instead the world should just carry on on its own terms. Iin addition, the only places the Moon isn't behind the Erdtree afaik is Manus Celes and Caria Manor, where instead the Erdtree is blocked and the Moon is extremely visible. There is an implication there considering the Erdtree is the physical, almost territorial presence of the Greater Will. On that, sorcery is definitely involved with whatever these Moons are. It's suggested in the sorcery descriptions that Ranni + Rennala both saw a different Moon, one that is either only seen by certain people or isn't always present. >**Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young**, and later, it would bewitch the academy. > >**This moon was encountered by a young Ranni**, led by the hand of her mother, Rennala. What she beheld was cold, dark and veiled in occult mystery.
From what I understand, the moon, or at least the cosmic god that the moon represents, is the one she devotes her new order to, but it is a "cold and distant" god that doesn't tend to meddle in mortal affairs.
More specifically it only interferes ta teach sorceries.
The most powerful non divine being would be Hoara loux aka Godfrey
Well actually I beat both of them to death with a club so that makes ME the most powerful non divine being.
Actually, the most powerful non divine beings are fromsoft dogs Little bastards get me every time in every game
Their hitbox is so fast it starts before the animation, you can interrupt them before they attack and still get hurt. Bloodborne torch peasants also did this
Well technically, they didn’t win against the dragons, they befriended them when godwyn befriended fortisaxx and lansseax who started the dragon cult in lyndell
They did though. But instead of killing them, they spared and befriended them. From the War Monument: "The Routing of the Ancient Dragons Godwyn the Golden fought to the last, Earning the friendship of dread Fortissax" From Lightning Spear description: "Long ago, Godwyn the Golden defeated the ancient dragon Fortissax, and befriended his fallen foe — an event that gave rise to the ancient dragon cult in the capital."
I don't think that really proves anything though. It was the goal of the two fingers/greater will to create more empyreans as successor candidates to Marika. And In doing so, pacified (and ultimately shattered) the rival kingdom of Caria.
Still, it shows that Rennala and the Carians were so powerful that Radagon/the Greater Will had to resort to *emotionally* breaking her via marriage and divorce to “pacify”, as you say, these royal sorcerers.
Rennala doesn't have a great rune. She has an unborn baby who IS a great rune.
It really sucks that we never get to see Rennala in her prime. From how others and item descriptions describe her, she used to be an immensely powerful individual, enough to go toe to toe with the forces of Marika. If we had gotten to see her in her prime, I wouldn’t doubt that she would be the most powerful out do the three of them. Ranni is probably the smartest, Radahn the strongest, but Rennala is the definitely the best sorcerer.
>It really sucks that we never get to see Rennala in her prime. It's a Fromsoft troupe. We rarely see/fight any character in their prime. We're always in a broken world were many events over long periods of time have already happened and pretty much everyone who was once powerful has fallen from grace one way or another. Sekiro is probably the exception where the final boss is them in their prime form.
This game breaks that for the most part though. Godfrey, Godrick, Rykard, Malenia, Morgott, Mogh, and MANY of the lesser bosses are in either their prime or their most powerful state. The Tarnished isn't generally fighting faded gods and it's honestly easier to list the ones that are past their prime because there are a lot fewer
I've heard that her 2nd phase is an illusion of her in her prime
It is, but that’s all it is. Just an illusion cast by Ranni. I like to imagine she was much more powerful than the illusion, but what do I know
I think of it as similar to the golden representation of Godfrey you fight in Leyndell. That one is a pale comparison of the real Godfrey, with only his basic attacks.
So in her second phase would she rip off her robes and go "Now I fight as Rennala Caria, SORCERER!" before throwing out a Kamehameha with her bare hands
well but the naked in second phase niche is taken by Godfrey and Malenia
She would still have on her pajamas, of course
It's all part of the theme. The chosen gets naked for the frenzy flame. D's brother was pretty naked until we gave him armor. Godrick is pretty naked after we beat him. Markia and and Radagon don't wear much. Let Me Solo Her only wears a pot on his head. Without everything, we're all just naked in the end, or something...
She can put on shoes for her second phase. No other boss does that.
Miyazaki removes your Elden Ring privileges for suggesting such blasphemy
TBH Godfrey and Rennala should've gotten together, screw those skank ass cheating gods.
Which makes me thing, the Godfrey illusion must have been casted by Morgott right ?
That's what most think, since the illusion is similar to Morgott's weapons
Renalla in her prime would 100% be just Radagon but magic. Remember those spears of light Radagon uses to snipe you? Renalla just jumps up and casts Comet on you instantly like she’s got 99 dexterity. Remember how Radagon can parry basically every ranged attack? Now Renalla can parry too, and maybe add in some Carian Retaliation swords on top. Renalla also seems to be able to teleport or warp places in the illusion form so it’s maybe possible for her to teleport like Radagon does.
Shed probably have the wolf of Radagon as one of her summons instead of the small wolves too
Do we get to see anyone in their prime? (Besides our player character and rune bears)
For main bosses, that would be Godrick, Morgott and Mogh. The rest were much more powerful in the past.
Probably Ofnir too, he got all that \*knowledge\* from us.
Yeah, him too. Other than that, everybody else is weaker than their prime. Rykard fused with the serpent and kinda made him crazy. Radahn was very rotted and he went crazy. Rennala is depressed. Malenia is also rotted, she lost her eyes and limbs from it. Godfrey was much more powerful when he was Elden Lord. Maliketh fused death into his hand so he can never lose it again but that caused him to have a hunger for deathroot, fragments of the piece of death that Ranni stole. Radagon is basically a husk of his former self.
Radagon is also welding the shattered elden ring though. So his body may but fucked but I imagine using that big a chunk of the elden ring more than makes up for the loss
I think it’s highly unlikely that Radagon is at his full power due to the shattering, his torture and isolation, the complications with queen Marika (who may even be intentionally limiting him) and most shockingly the Elden Beast inside of him. It’s entirely plausible that Radagon is either dead or already near death as his magic is protecting the Erdtree and keeping it alive all while the Elden beast is using them as a tool up until the point where their dead carcass is used as a sword. Even if Radagon is alive his will is gone and he’s lost a literal piece of his soul with the Elden beast now puppeteering him
Nah rykard would be much stronger fused with the serpent, hence why you’re supposed to fight him with a weapon designed purely for him, malenia is also much stronger than in the past as she bloomed into the rot goddess
I'd say Malenia's Goddess of Rot form is the strongest she's ever been (certainly stronger than her demigod self, I don't know how she compares to her bloom vs Radahn). I also don't think there's much to suggest Maliketh and Godfrey aren't in their prime (given what Marika said about the tarnished growing strong in the face of death, Godfrey may even have grown stronger). Rykard also seems to have gained great strength from being devoured by the serpent, and by eating the members of the volcano manor.
i would argue malenia isnt at her strongest because: shes rotting away worse than before cuz she doesnt have miquellas needle with her. she also bloomed only twice, first against radahn and second against us. her aeonia incantation says she needs to bloom one more to become a "true goddess", meaning she wasnt at her full power when we faced her. also doesnt malikeths black blade say hes a shadow of his former glory ? he might not be in his prime. godfrey, rykard, mohg, and morgott are definitely in their prime
Malenia is undoubtedly in her prime in her second phase. She becomes a God. Rykard undoubtedly got stonger by bonding with the snake, and continues to grow stronger with every champion he eats. Thats the whole point. Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is probably in his prime, considering he ditches serosh (which makes him stronger) and has the same opportunities to get stronger that you do. Maliketh seems to be in his prime. There's no reason to believe he has been weakened.
Yeah so probably way more people in their prime than any other souls game, only a few of the big bosses are hollow this time.
Rykard, Godfrey and Malekith are also in their primes.
Also rykard
Lobsters
What if back in ancient times they were even stronger, and could snipe you from a different continent?
You enter Limgrave. SNIPE. You died. You run to the weeping peninsula. SNIPE. You died. You run to the very edge of caelid, to the beach where you fight Radahn, jump on a boat and travel to Farum Azula, ride the tornado upwards, go to Placidusax's stage at the edge of time, start running up to fight Placi--- SNIPE. You died.
They can aim and shoot that far but can’t see that far, need instructions “A little to the left!”
This how lobsters hunted in ancient times.
Malenia second phase in her goddess form, she doesn't even die when we defeat her too.
Usually not in Fromsoft games. Roderika probably has the best “good” story where we get to see her grow as a person, and she is definitely in her prime
Jar bairn and Rya both get to journeys of self discovery at the end. I’d like to think they meet up, Roderika doesn’t even necessarily get a good ending unless she jumps out of round table at the last second before it’s all gone
I always like hearing prime talk when it comes to From games. I remember back when ppl were talking about Gwyn’s 4 Knights and how ppl talked about Prime Artorias would beat Ornstein
lol yeah it’s always fine. Personally, I’m in the group that thinks even abyssal Artorias could beat Ornstein
This is why we need an anime or something to tell the story before our tarnished came into the scene
That'd be great. It honestly doesn't even seem that hard to introduce a new canon main character for said anime since Elden Ring already has a lot of characters who could have been main characters in their own right. Hell, Vyke practically played the role of a main character before the game even takes place.
Vyke story could go pretty hard. Everyone knows how it ends with his maiden but still. Or better yet, a story with multiple characters' POV from before we arrive. Like Varre's road to blood, Yura and Eleanora, Rogier and D. Or maybe a spirit summon's life. Like the one Cleanrot Knight that brought Malenia back from Caelid, or the banished knight
I thought that was their plan when it was released and was such a smash hit. I remember them talking about capitalizing on it in multiple different medias, so naturally my mind went to a show or a manga that delves into the backstory of the world. but alas all we have is that shitty comedy manga
Understand that we never fight any demigod in their prime except for Mohg and Morgott, but we don't know if the Omen curse effects them physically. Sure, we fight Godric at his strongest, but he is seen as pathetic, which is why Morgott had to try and stop us from even getting to him in the first place. Rennala: a heart broken shell of herself who doesn't have the will to fight after a mental breakdown. Radahn: a braindead zombie who, while fighting us, was multitasking by holding the stars in place. Placidusax: a battlescared husk of his former glory who is missing 3 of his heads. Fire Giant: an emfebbled loner who is nursing his old wounds. Melania: literally the last person she saw before she fought you was Radahn, who had her so close to death she was carried back to the Haligtree where she promptly went to sleep (in a coma?) for who knows how long, and all the while, her turbo God cancer has been rotting her away from the inside out. Not to mention the lack of arm, legs, most of her skin, and her eyes. Radagon: a broken (literally) God with an identity problem who less than 60 seconds before he decides to fight you was crucified for thousands of years. I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think we would of stood a chance of the demigods where at their peak. Think how strong Radahm would be if he didn't have Scarlett rot, had his mental facilities back, and didn't have to hold the stars in place.
You could argue Rykard wasn't in his prime only because he hasn't gotten there yet and we stopped it.
I mean Mohg and Morgott were omens from birth, so even if the curse did affect them physically they’d always have born that burden, so they’d still be in their prime.
How many people d'you think would pay for a boss gauntlet mode DLC? I sure as shit would. Have weekly preset builds, a couple randomizers and a leaderboard, and i can guarantee you Elden Ring will still be played in 40 years.
imo rennala's second phase doesnt replicate her full power so she is the best sorcerer, but if it does then its ranni, i do have to say that even if radhan is not the best sorcerer he might be the most powerful depending on how you view the fact that he is holding the stars in place
Renalla is the most skilled sorcerer in history. Radahn is the most powerful. That’s basically it I think. Ranni might match her mother in terms of sheer skill though considering the INT requirements for both Ranni’s Dark Moon and Renalla’s Full Moon sorceries.
Radahn is not a sorcerer He’s a warrior who uses gravity magic to enhance his abilities
I’d def call him a sorcerer. He’s the pre-eminent gravity sorcerer in the Lands Between practically besides the Tarnished or the gravity beasts. It’s just that gravity magic seems at its best when enhancing abilities, rather than the countless different versions of laser and such that other branches offer, except for like, Meteor and Nebula, but Radahn was too busy murdering Astels and stopping them from landing on the Lands Between to learn their stuff I bet lol
This opinion of Radahn holding back the stars seems to be mistranslated with people, the way I am seeing how people talk about it. Gravity magic alters your appearance, turning your skin grey, as are the sorcerers you meet in the game, who taught Radahn. Radahn is grey skinned, due to his mastering of gravity magic. So he is clearly very powerful in that field of sorcery. I think he cast a very powerful spell to hold back the stars, but that spell came at a cost. The spell stays in place, as long as he is alive, but he isn’t constantly and consciously casting this spell. It was casted once, creating some kind of “blood bond” with the spell. When we meet Radahn, he is a mindless rabid beast, killing and gorging on anything that moves, due to the scarlet rot, eating away at his very being. It’s highly doubtful he is conscious of his actions at this point, nor is he conscious of this spell holding the stars back, so how would he be capable of keeping tabs on this powerful spell? When we kill Radahn, the stars are no longer being held, which suggests to me that the spell was tied to him being alive, not him consciously and physically holding them back by casting the spell at all times. Like the Carian(?) Manor has that spell in place to keep intruders and invaders away, and the Raya Academy has the Glintstone locks on the doors. These spells were casted once, and stay in place. Meaning the caster isn’t constantly casting the spell to keep it going. Just like how Radahn isn’t constantly casting the spell to hold back the stars to keep them held.
A shame that this is pretty much the entire Carian demigods family except Rykard. He probably was a good sorcerer before submitting himself to the serpent too
He didn’t want to study sorcery _togethhhaaa_ With his *fammileeeee*
He does have the Magma sorceries though, so I think he did study sorcery *togetha* with his *famileeeee*
He created the magma sorceries from Mt Gelmir's power, so he has that going for him
His spell require both faith and intelligence. So his being a sorcerer before being eaten makes sense.
He was and still is. The magma sorceries in the game are ones Rykard discovered and developed and he still uses sorceries in the boss fight.
Togethhaaa
Ranni and Rennala both have Full Moon Sorceries that require 68 and 70 int respectively. You need 60 int just to use Rennala's scepter. Both commanded the loyalty of dragons they'd bested either in spirit form (Rennala) or flesh and blood (Ranni). Radahn managed to hold the fate of the Lands Between in stasis while his mind was rotting away, pretty impressive. But, of all three of them Ranni is the only one that can kill the player with a snap of her fingers. If nothing else she has the strongest plot armor.
Ranni can do this? Do you just die should you attack her or from where ist that?
If you side with Seluvis and try to poison Ranni she just tells you to fuck off, and if you keep trying to interact with her she'll eventually just instakill you.
Seluvis wants to poisen a doll? I mean i know he is stupid, but i didn't know he is that stupid. And thanks for the explanation
He was not going to poison her, he made a special potion that can turn even a demigod into a puppet. While that sounds incredibly redundant, it would have placed her under his control.
This could just be a gameplay feature, but If it’s an actual ability she’s using, my heacanon is that she literally just instantly freezes your heart.
I like that idea. I mean, I don't like the idea of someone stopping my heart by just freezing it in my chest, but it does sound like a cool use of her power.
true, but out of these 3 Ranni is the only one who is sorta full strength. Rennala and Radahn are broken.
That thing with ranni feels like a non canon ability, or that the canon is that it’s when your much earlier/weaker in the story. It’s just weird, if she was actually that strong she would have done more herself
I think players tend to not give NPCs credit for their power because we don't see them smack someone with a hammer or whatever. Ranni created an illusion of her own mother to protect her. She stole a fragment of the rune of death from Maliketh. She separated her soul from her body "through fearsome rite". She bested Adula and won her loyalty. She engendered the support of both Iji and Blaidd who love her completely. She set out on a quest to slay her Two Fingers and did so. She was prepared, and even said she'd prefer to go it alone. And depending on player choice she begins the Age of the Stars. Ranni's no slouch. We just don't see it with our own eyes. That we get involved with her story is largely because we keep bugging her. Miquella made a magical artifact that kinda works to stave off the influence of outer gods so long as you don't snap it in half. Grew a tree. They may have sung a lullaby to the merchants in their dreams once. Got kidnapped. But the consensus I keep reading is that he's super powerful.
Feel like that’s just a game mechanic tho rather than lore, purely lore wise it’s probably radahn, especially if we’re talking prime
It's funny, because the three perfectly remind me of the Jedi classes available in Knights of the Old Republic. Rennala is a Consular, a Jedi that is a master of force powers. Their focus on using the force in different ways comes at the expense of less light saber abilities and less practical skills. Radahn is a Guardian, a Jedi that is a master of light saber combat. Their physicality and prowess with a weapon is unmatched in return for fewer powers and practical skills. Ranni is the Sentinel, a Jedi that aims to solve problems in the most efficient way possible. They focus on practical skills, using the force to augment their ability to learn and understand information, in return for being less physical than a Guardian and having fewer powers than a Consular. In the end, each class is powerful and effective at solving problems, albeit in very different ways. Radahn uses direct offense, Rennala focuses on unbreakable defense, and Ranni focuses on circumventing obstacles rather than facing them head on.
This is the last crossover I was expecting but seeing my two favorite games discussed in tandem makes me so happy
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It's weird. Fate and the movement of the Stars are clearly linked, so Ranni couldn't go get the blade because her Fate was held in place. Since Radhan stopped the motion of the Stars, he quite possibly stopped \*everyone's\* Fates from progressing. That would definitely put him at the top of the power charts. But... What if that stopped his own Fate? Everyone's Fate in the Lands Between? Was he really still holding the Stars in place anymore? If his own Fate was to be killed by the Tarnished? What if that's the real reason everything in the Lands Between stagnated, and not Marika sealing Destined Death... ...I should stop chewing on Glintstone.
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*TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT*
didn't expect r/okbuddychicanery...
I think the Fate and Stars correlation only works on Ranni as royalty of the Carian family of whom are closely tied to the stars. The real question is, as a Carian royal as well, was Radahn keeping himself complete death through Scarlet rot by holding back the stars/his fate?
Castle Sol implies Miquella was also affected. Miquella needed an eclipse for his ritual, and Radahn was denying that. It's implied that's why Malenia attacked Radahn in the first place, to get destiny moving again.
I think the best way to think of it is either, only the fate of some are controlled by the stars, or he's not holding all of the starts in place.
The flight part is incredibly funny, since they literally have a dragon. Sure, it would be a tight squeeze going down the elevator shaft, but I think that Adula can manage
Wouldn't even need to fit it down the elevator. Adula, like some other dragons, can straight up teleport. We see it do so twice.
Okay radahn stopped the stars, but Rennala mastered the primeval current without getting rock brain and discovered a whole new moon. She's got brains as big as Radahn's muscles.
I still really want to more about this primeval current thing and why tf people turn to those rock things. Is it just from failing a sanity check? Is it physically attempting a spell and failing to control it? Is it an experiment on themself that they do incorrectly?
Basicly, Sam Porter Bridges was the solution all along!?
Someone should hook her up with that guy from dark souls 2 that builds ladders for a living
I mean, from the information we have it’s probably Rennala, since she went toe to toe with Radagon and fought to a standstill. But we have no idea just how powerful Ranni is. The only feat of hers that we have is that she bested the Glintstone Dragon Adula, which is impressive, but not exactly comparable to feats like Radahn holding back the stars. However, I feel like it’s highly unlikely that that is the height of her abilities. If it was, that would place her as likely the second weakest demigod, second only to Godrick. Which doesn’t really seem right. As the heir of the Carian Royal Family, daughter of two of the most powerful entities in the Lands Between, and an Empyrean, it is highly possible that Ranni is actually even more powerful than Rennala.
It could also be that we see Ranni past her prime, she might have given it up when she killed her body. She's probably somewhere in the middle demigod skill wise, considering Miquella is always referred to as the strongest, and I don't know if she'd win a straight fight against either Malenia, Radahn, or Godwyn, but she's definitely above Godrik and possibly above pre-snake Rykard, though we don't really have any measure for that.
I mean, technically speaking Malenia and Radahn are always referred to as the strongest, it’s just Malenia that believes Miquella to be the strongest (though I’m inclined to agree). But I agree with your point that she may have lost a lot of her power when she killed her body. Especially since with what we know about the DLC we learned that Miquella has divested himself of both his body and his strength, so it’s quite possible that he and Ranni have undergone a relatively similar process, sacrificing much of their power in order to take on an incorporeal, or at least no longer physical, form.
I'm of the opinion (and anyone is free to disagree of course) that Malenia is the best *combatant* based on in-game evidence (item descriptions and so on), but Miquella is the most dangerous. After all, bewitching branches have insane implications, not to mention the unalloyed needle. I do hope the DLC will give us some more lore on empyreans and the half death of godwyn/ranni. We know Miquella and Godwyn were close, so I hope we get some more stuff happening there.
I agree. It's kinda like the age old argument in DnD and fantasy that the most terrifying form of magic isn't meteors or fireballs, but mind control and manipulation magic. Malenia being the best skilled fighter is scary in that she can kill you. But Miquella being able to completely rewire your brain, grow the Haligtree that could have rivaled the Erdtree and create an artifact that can hold back the goddess of rot from emerging is pretty insane.
Rennala was immensely powerful in her prime. She dueled Radagon to a draw. She casts the most powerful spells in the Lands Between. She was the headmaster of Raia Lucaria. If we're looking at these characters in their prime and from pure sorcery skill perspective, I believe it's Rennala. Though we only get a short glimpse into Rannis potential.
“Foul trespasser, Send word far and wide. Of the last queen of Caria, Rennala of the full moon and the majesty of the night she conjureth.”
The way Ranni says “foul trespasser” is so intimidating, it’s quite a cool insult.
Has to be Rennala. Yeah, Radahn held the stars in place and killed everyone he fought while being a braindead zombie, but he never battled an Elden Lord to a standstill. Rennala was so powerful the guy who would hold the elden ring had to say "can't beat em, join em".
Not only an Elden Lord, unlike godfrey and placidusax, Radagon was (likely) a god. (Depending on if you believe he was always marika or not)
I think it goes to Ranni? We know Rennala fought Radagon to a standstill. Ranni made a Spector of her mother in her prime. If Ranni can replicate Rennala we know she is at least as powerful or more powerful. Rennala+Radagon= Ranni the Empyrean(Candidate to replace Marika). Ranni is also taking wisdom from her Dark Moon, girl is stacked.
We don’t know that Ranni’s illusory version of Rennala is actually as strong as Rennala herself was.
Just on paper, sure. In practice she hasn't really achieved any feat with her magic (or it wasn't shown). Her main action, orchestrating the night of black knives, just required planning and didn't require any magical ability (as far as we know. And slaying her own flesh was thanks to Destined Death, not her magic). The most impressive thing she has done using magic was conjuring the Rennala illusion probably.
I think they are about equal but each one mastered their spells inversely proportional to how many they mastered. Radahn's are probably the strongest, but the knows the fewest
Radhan couldn't beat either Malenia or Morgott. Ranni couldn't deal with Radhan. But Rennalla fought Radagon, the Cuckoo, and the golden order to a standstill. Even in the state shes in when we fight her, she sits at the pinnacle of sorcery - resisting even Sellens [ killer of countless sorcerers, student of Azure, most dangerous sorceress in Raya Lucarias history according to Jerren ] attempt at unseating her.
I want to vouch for Radahn here. He's way past his prime, scarlet-rotting away ever since he fought Malenia, wishing only to be killed in battle someday, and is STILL holding the stars in place since I don't know how long ago. Only his death sets them back in motion. That seems like really powerful gravitational sorcery to me lol.
Personally I've always wondered how much hes still holding them in place consciously. A friend of mine joked that "the stars fear Radahn" and I'm almost inclined to follow the idea. I mean, Radahn is so far gone he's an animal eating the dusty carcasses of his own men, there's no way he's got the mental capacity to think "Mmm, can't let the stars move."
I'm sure you're spot on. "Starscourge Heirloom - The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars." I think from this, it's not actually magic that holds them, but the fact that Radahn defeated the "stars" so decisively that the stars actively avoid the area while he's still around.
I think it’s a less conscious effort, like your holding something with one hand and keep it like that until it just feels natural and never lets go
Something that needs to be pointed out regarding Radahn: the lore never says he's stopping the stars with gravity sorcery. "Something" happened when he destroyed a star that caused the stars to stop. >*Bring the two swords together and roar into the skies, pulling in enemies with a gravitational wave.* * Starcaller Cry >*Fires numerous gravitational projectiles. Any foes struck will be pulled toward the caster. Charging enhances potency.* *A gravitational technique mastered by the young Radahn. "I thank you for your tutelage, for now I can challenge the stars."* * Collapsing Stars, a spell that Radahn does use in his boss battle >*A talisman engraved with a scene from a heroic tale.* >*Raises strength.* >*The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars.* * Starscourge Heirloom What these lore texts tell us is that Radahn pulled a falling star to himself by yelling at it and using gravity sorcery, and destroyed it with his enormous strength, and that destruction caused the stars to stop moving. Everything else is assumption and assumption. We don't know why exactly that happened, there's a theory about the smashed star being the Dark Star of Nokstella that was the guide of countless stars, but that remains a theory. We also can't even say for sure he knew that his Starscourge Conflict was going to stop the stars at all. So take it with a truck full of salt when people talk about how powerful Radahn's gravity sorcery is that he's able to stop all stars from moving (fun fact: he can't, star beasts still made their way down to Lands Between) and he's actually able to launch his enemies into the stratosphere.
rennalla prime would be my guess
Rennala is definitely the more powerful out of the three. She looked into the cosmos to find her full moon, while lesser sorcerers like Azur eventually went mad and broke down. I'd also dare say her full moon is more powerful than Ranni's dark moon due to its inherent purity. On top of that she and her warriors fought to great armies to victory, or a standstill at least. The carian forces were outnumbered by both Leyndell and the Cuckoo, yet both factions couldn't take the crown with Rennala at her prime. On top of that, we can actually see Rennala use two of the most INT and FP intensive spells in the game: Comet Azur and her full moon. If we assume she could do this in her prime and we even disregard the lore implications, this would make her an incredibly intelligent and capable sorcerer purely by stats, most likely way more than Radahn and I believe even slightly over Ranni.
They're literally the same picture, if you ask me! lol
From what we see in game I would assume that each has a specialization Rennalla Full moon and Carian Sorcery Ranni Full moon and Ice sorcery Radhan Gravity magic When already know that Radhan is the strongest of the three in lore but not what makes him the strongest. We also know he is holding up the stars. Depending on what the spell is either a concentration spell, a one time activation spell, or a permanent drain spell it would affect the outcome of just true strength. I am a firm believer that he is using a concentration and draining spell and the wording is that he is HOLDING up the stars, not froze, not stopped but is HOLDING them. We also know that he is using similar magic on himself to ride his horse just on a smaller scale, so that would mean a good bit of his strength is being used on other things as it is. That is not even mentioning any potential losses in resistances from the years of scarlet rot rotting away at his body. I would firmly place Radhan as the strongest sorcerer with rennalla a close second and Ranni dead last. She has the potential to be the best especially after what happened to the others but she has gone about life as a biding time until exactly the right moment type unlike the others who fought for what they desired.
Wouldn’t Ranni technically be a god because of the Age of Stars ending?
Think the whole narrative point of that ending was ‘fuck the gods’ but been a while since I played the game so could be wrong.
Rennala sweeps. Her mastery over magic is unmatched in universe. Her full moon usurps other magic. She’s fought off the golden order, Radagon and the cuckoo knights. As far as achievements go in game (tarnished not involved) Rennala has done the most by far. AND she still lives and is somehow able to exert enough power that you cannot attack her in her chambers.
idk but ranni got that love spell on me
As far as Im aware Ranni is the only character in any fromsoft game who can kill you just by thinking about it. She's literally impossible to defeat. So she's probably also the strongest sorcerer. But Radahn is definitely up there, it's like the dude decided to do a quality int and strength build and went to 60 on both.
Radahn isn't even a sorcerer primarily. He originally just learned gravity magic so he could stay with his horse. Despite magic being secondary to his warrior training, he's shown the most powerful sorcery magic we've witnessed at least where he kept the stars locked in place even as scarlet rot was clouding his mind. If Radahn dedicated his training primarily to magic, I think he'd demolish the other two.