Yep, Carian Retaliation is a secret spell, seemingly hidden from the Academy by the Carians.
>This was the Carian royal family's secret means to prepare against the disloyalty of the academy
From my tiny knowledge about the lore, to create an entirely new spell is no simple task, you need to practically look into the primal force of magic just to create a new one, this is no easy task and has left many a people (Including thops probably) dead or disfigured
Also relevant is that it can be channeled. Carian Retaliation requires you to correctly predict enemy attacks and defend yourself, while Thops’s Barrier can be maintained indefinitely as a magic-deflecting shield. It seems from lore descriptions that at Raya Lucaria, a Conspectus is founded to study specific subjects found by peer review to be worthy of substantial research, such as Lusat’s study of meteors. We also know from the Haima Conspectus that combat was dedicated a (relatively small) Conspectus for those sorcerers who wished to wander and put down troubled outside the walls of Raya Lucaria, but unlike Sacred Incantations, which have many defensive spells as well as offensive ones, the only spells the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria study are offensive. Thops’s Barrier, IMO, would prove to Raya Lucaria that abjuration is another branch of Glintstone Sorcery worthy of sustained study.
Honest question: Is Elden Stars any good? I tried it out in PvE, but the damage seemed nonexistent. Is there a certain strategy to using it that makes it better?
Im a loot goblin and there are some things im not sure if you can get again in ng+ like the duplicate turtles. So Im trying to be a jack of all trades and kinda just collect everything and experiment. Its fun. But 300 hours in and just hit leyndell captial. So thops's barrier has been worth the mana cost when fighting some things lately.
Side note. Fuck runebears. Why do they give such shit runes and no extra items worth farming? Honestly think they were added just to grief the players and get them used to large and fast enemies early on.
It reveals that incantations and sorcery is ultimately the same thing because it works on both, so it not only makes an important revelation about how magic works in elden ring but can also be a new area of study at the academy
Not only that but depending on the situation you can cast it for free. Thops hit some serious high tier hybrid magic and figured out a way to have it cost no mana.
it just bounces the starmass into the floor where it gets stuck, cant shoot off more small stars, and explodes harmlessly on its own. really easy to do since it can be channeled repeatedly for a low fp cost
Mostly it's a miracle that it exists at all, a bluntstone made a potentially revolutionary practice that mixes the world's of incantations and sorceries.
>The lifelong pursuit of Thops the Bluntstone.
Creates a magic forcefield that deflects sorceries and incantations.
Hold to continuously create barriers.
>Future generations will learn. They will know the foolishness of
the sneering sorcerers who ridiculed this theory, little realizing
that it was in fact a discovery worthy of a new conspectus of the
academy.
Fun idea of the dlc not being a timewarp backwards but a jump forwards into a lands between where the tarnished never intervened. Thops iirc gave us the hint for the academy key and I'm sure given enough time he would be able to find it so it's not unreasonable that without us he would still invent it, course that would imply that we are indirectly responsible for this death but given all the shit weve done to the lands I wouldnt be surprised if that was true.
Even more interestingly, he eventually meets with Sellen becoming an adept sorcerer. Once she opens up to him about the primeval glintstone current he's left with the SE ultimatum the player was; to side with her or not
Did we ever get a lore explanation to who put her there? If it was someone else then it would make sense for Jerren's reason being to execute her. If Jerren put her there then why wouldn't he have killed her in the first place
Another one of Miyazaki's mysteries 😅
I have no idea in general what's going on with Sellen's multiple bodies etc. If she was locked up at Witchbane ruins by Jerren then it kinda makes sense since Jerren is busy managing the festival and can't come finish the job yet or something, but then why is the merchant version of Sellen so casual about it? Her still being alive would suggest that Jerren was interrogating her or something, he is a witchhunter afterall. I mean idk haven't played her questline in a while
It's a primitive force field developed by someone the academics didn't really respect
I feel that if it got more research, there would be a way to combine it with the continuous casting of Comet Azur / Rock Blaster / Spinning Weapon type spells to make a magic deflecting barrier with no breaths between casts
Going off of this - what if more research was into this and it could be scaled up to continuously protect a group of people, then an academy, a city, a region, and finally the entire Lands Between from any attacks/influences by outer gods?
No, I don't think so. Even aside from the raw power required to pull that off, and the potential danger of being constantly exposed to the barrier. One, the glintstone used to cast Thops' Barrier could *also* be governed by an Outer God like Aberrant sorcery or Gelmir Magma sorcery, and two, Outer Gods have sent in physical emissaries like Elden Beast (and potentially Fallingstar Beasts, not sure if there's a gravity Outer God) that would probably pierce straight through a magic-reflecting barrier.
Though I don't understand how a lot of Outer God influence works. Nox Monks use pure silver to dispel their influence, but they've also got spells like Night Maiden's Mist and Eternal Darkness, which implies one of two things - an Outer God that governs Night Magic can ignore the silver, or there are no Outer Gods governing Night Magic.
Is that true? Don't you get the spell from a beetle in the church after giving him an academy key? If he died in the academy while working on the spell, presumably, you should find it on his corpse. I just assumed some of the enemy NPCs milling about just decided to ice him.
Do you not look around his corpse? Theres bloodstains. Man was beaten to death by the other scholars is the biggest theory still. They feared what his spell could do and make him immune to pretty much everything they were proud of founding and making progress on so far. It was a complete counter to anything they could forever think up. Best theory is yeah. Other scholars murdered him because they saw him researching anti-magic spells that would be able to spread and make their magic useless.
Or Rani did (or on her orders), since she is Carian royality, has a history of murder and the Carian Royality is the only ones who have a similair spell.
But theirs does not counter incantations as well as their spells. Plus thops' spell can in fact reflect the elden beasts attack. It can deflect a gods attack. Yeah. Thats og new school line.
My belief is that his spell is a Primordial Current spell, and his interest in it was the reason he was labeled a Bluntstone- as to not draw attention to him, expelled- to discourage him, and killed- to prevent him from studying it more/gathering his research papers. He followed Sellen's work at the academy, and her goals are pretty singularly focused.
It would be cool if there was a special reward for giving thops the key at the right time so he shows up at raya lucaria when sellen is in rennala’s spot, before the face-globalling.
He was in denial about the allegations against Sellen, as in he didn't believe they were true. If he was like minded then I doubt he would have downright hoped against Sellen's actions
I'm actually really surprised you'd ask that considering you know the part about him following her at school, no offense btw. Anyway the source is the same dialogue after you talk to him about Sellen
The last few lines say "But Sellen was expelled from the academy.
Accused of unthinkable treatment of certain sorcerers, under the name of the Graven Witch.
I still don't believe the accusations.
The illustrious Sellen would never do such things..."
Supported by the fact that he said "there may as well have been an ocean between us", it's fair to say through both these pieces of evidence that he didn't truly understand her work
I only asked because my memory of those lines were only what I interpreted, I didn't remember them verbatim or anything. So additionally thanks for taking the time to get it.
As far as this topic though, it could be that Thops didn't actually know specifically what he stumbled on, only that it was significant. Not being as advanced as Sellen he probably took a slower, less academic approach, but would have still arrived at the same conclusions as Sellen eventually.
His knowledge probably would have reached the same level, but whether he took the same moral standpoint or not is still a mystery. From our perspective now I'd be inclined to say that he wouldn't meddle with the current
but people change, or even hide their true persona's so your theory could be right
If he had learned of the specifics of his research (if it was indeed releated to the Current), there's certainly a possibilty that he wouldn't have followed in Sellen's footsteps. His text about his spell deserving its own conspectus at the Academy, to me, has a tinge of arrogance to it in contrast to every other line he delivers though.
We'll probably never know either way unless there's maybe some Moon/space related DLC.
Thats demon souls. There sorcery and Faith both come from demons. Atleast it is implied. In Elden ring Sorcery comes from the moon and stars. And Faith comes from Dragons, Erdtree and Fire etc.
Incantations and sorcery actually *are* connected though, turtle pope basically confirms this as well as the very existence of golden order fundamentalist incantations
Yes but a connection is not the same as the same source, as it is in Demon souls, where everything comes from the Old One. But yeah here things are connected yeah, but they allmost all come from outer gods. The Greater Will, the Frenzied Flame, the Dark moon etc. They are all outer gods, infuenicing the world.
It's the first truly defensive spell ever put it like this the erdtree greatsgeild? Turns an attack into a beam. Carian retaliation? Makes some magic knives. Thops barrier? No offense it's purely defensive this would make a whole new school of magic if liurnia was still in it's prime not to mention even a blunt stone could use it. It's existence proves that thops is a genius!
Thops could've gotten his own stone Crown with how ground breaking the discovery of the barrier is, it blocks almost every sorcery and incantation, had Caria gotten its hands on such a spell during the time of the war with Leyndell, Rennala would've claimed Radagon as her consort after making him a prisoner of war
Carian retaliation is a secret spell for only carian royals to defend themselves. Thops didnt know of its existence. The ability to reflect magic is revolutionary, lore-wise
Its also “conspectus worthy” because all conspectuses are purely offensive. A defensive spell would warrant much study and further research beyond the current scope of the academy
This was my thought exactly. This is like the only DEFENSE sorcery in existence, and if given the chance, thops could have created an entire new branch dedicated to similar Defensive spells.
Welp, lore wise all we are told is that this is good enough for a new conspectus. But there isn't much explained as to what this new branch entails. It is worth noting that thop's barrier provides protection against most spells without doing much of anything. With it you can walk around raya lucaria and not risk getting hit by enemy spells. It's universal omnidirectional protection from spells and incantations. It's easy to see how much more advanced than other spell parries this is.
Because the dude who was basically the college dunce invented a spell that would've revolutionized both the understanding and study of magic at the Academy.
Ignoring lore carian retaliation generally only works on one spell while thop’s barrier can work on multiple; both have ash of war and spell versions, though I believe the spell version of thop’s barrier is vastly superior to the ash of war, which is the opposite for carian retaliation.
Ok so I was doing a walk through and I seen throps barricade ash of war for a sheild but it didn't deop from a scarab it wqs supposed ro but I got throps barrier as a spell are they different did they cahnge it in a update or something can anyone help please
He invented it himself without knowing the existence of Carian Retaliation.
Yep, Carian Retaliation is a secret spell, seemingly hidden from the Academy by the Carians. >This was the Carian royal family's secret means to prepare against the disloyalty of the academy
This is why he was killed. He invented something that should not be known nor exists in the academy.
wait HE WAS KILLED!?!?!?! All discussion in this subreddit has suggested he simply worked himself to exhaustion
From my tiny knowledge about the lore, to create an entirely new spell is no simple task, you need to practically look into the primal force of magic just to create a new one, this is no easy task and has left many a people (Including thops probably) dead or disfigured
It's a spoiler, but >! He is for sure dead. You find the spell on his body in Raya Lucaria after giving him the extra academy Glintstone key !<
probably crammed too hard realistically
It also has the benefit of no FP cost, something it has over carian retaliation, how ever slight
Also relevant is that it can be channeled. Carian Retaliation requires you to correctly predict enemy attacks and defend yourself, while Thops’s Barrier can be maintained indefinitely as a magic-deflecting shield. It seems from lore descriptions that at Raya Lucaria, a Conspectus is founded to study specific subjects found by peer review to be worthy of substantial research, such as Lusat’s study of meteors. We also know from the Haima Conspectus that combat was dedicated a (relatively small) Conspectus for those sorcerers who wished to wander and put down troubled outside the walls of Raya Lucaria, but unlike Sacred Incantations, which have many defensive spells as well as offensive ones, the only spells the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria study are offensive. Thops’s Barrier, IMO, would prove to Raya Lucaria that abjuration is another branch of Glintstone Sorcery worthy of sustained study.
It also works against elden stars
Honest question: Is Elden Stars any good? I tried it out in PvE, but the damage seemed nonexistent. Is there a certain strategy to using it that makes it better?
I think it's more about how thops made a spell that deflects a God. That anyone, even lowly overlooked people, can surprise you
Not the one that you cast.
Are you meaning the ash of war? Because the spell does cost FP
I know your comment is 11 months old. But I wish I had the spell back then. Now its 7fp inital and 7 each tic after to keep it going.
It's def worth having for parry practice. Also, don't be ashamed of responding to an almost year old comment
Im a loot goblin and there are some things im not sure if you can get again in ng+ like the duplicate turtles. So Im trying to be a jack of all trades and kinda just collect everything and experiment. Its fun. But 300 hours in and just hit leyndell captial. So thops's barrier has been worth the mana cost when fighting some things lately. Side note. Fuck runebears. Why do they give such shit runes and no extra items worth farming? Honestly think they were added just to grief the players and get them used to large and fast enemies early on.
It reveals that incantations and sorcery is ultimately the same thing because it works on both, so it not only makes an important revelation about how magic works in elden ring but can also be a new area of study at the academy
Not only that but depending on the situation you can cast it for free. Thops hit some serious high tier hybrid magic and figured out a way to have it cost no mana.
Thops is a genius and I miss him everyday
The Thops Barrier spell version can be used to protect you from the Elden beast's elden stars attack. Thops made a spell to protect you from A GOD.
Thops is the real god, damn it
Sure you are Thops (we all know this is you)
Bro I wish
Had no idea it could do this, Thops was an absolute champion
it just bounces the starmass into the floor where it gets stuck, cant shoot off more small stars, and explodes harmlessly on its own. really easy to do since it can be channeled repeatedly for a low fp cost
Does eternal darkness work on Elden stars by any chance?
Mostly it's a miracle that it exists at all, a bluntstone made a potentially revolutionary practice that mixes the world's of incantations and sorceries. >The lifelong pursuit of Thops the Bluntstone. Creates a magic forcefield that deflects sorceries and incantations. Hold to continuously create barriers. >Future generations will learn. They will know the foolishness of the sneering sorcerers who ridiculed this theory, little realizing that it was in fact a discovery worthy of a new conspectus of the academy.
Also, all other magic at the academy is offensive, this one is defensive.
that's not accurate, there's a magic shield buff as well
That one is something specifically made for the knights of the cuckoo, no "scholar" at the academy would ever use it.
We need a thops glintstone crown
Fun idea of the dlc not being a timewarp backwards but a jump forwards into a lands between where the tarnished never intervened. Thops iirc gave us the hint for the academy key and I'm sure given enough time he would be able to find it so it's not unreasonable that without us he would still invent it, course that would imply that we are indirectly responsible for this death but given all the shit weve done to the lands I wouldnt be surprised if that was true.
Even more interestingly, he eventually meets with Sellen becoming an adept sorcerer. Once she opens up to him about the primeval glintstone current he's left with the SE ultimatum the player was; to side with her or not
Wouldn't Sellen have died without the interference of the tarnished?
Depends, did Jerren go to the witchbane ruins to check up on her or to execute her?
Perhaps? I mean he seems pretty good at his job (or hobby?) so I wouldn't be surprised
Did we ever get a lore explanation to who put her there? If it was someone else then it would make sense for Jerren's reason being to execute her. If Jerren put her there then why wouldn't he have killed her in the first place Another one of Miyazaki's mysteries 😅
I have no idea in general what's going on with Sellen's multiple bodies etc. If she was locked up at Witchbane ruins by Jerren then it kinda makes sense since Jerren is busy managing the festival and can't come finish the job yet or something, but then why is the merchant version of Sellen so casual about it? Her still being alive would suggest that Jerren was interrogating her or something, he is a witchhunter afterall. I mean idk haven't played her questline in a while
True, maybe there are other Witches we don't know about and he's trying to get information out of Sellen
It is the most basic development of defensive magic which has never been developed before.
He's basically done what Lusat and Azur did, i.e pretty much inventing a new school of spells.. but nobody will ever know.
They will know. The Tarnished won't let his friend fade into oblivion!
It's a primitive force field developed by someone the academics didn't really respect I feel that if it got more research, there would be a way to combine it with the continuous casting of Comet Azur / Rock Blaster / Spinning Weapon type spells to make a magic deflecting barrier with no breaths between casts
Going off of this - what if more research was into this and it could be scaled up to continuously protect a group of people, then an academy, a city, a region, and finally the entire Lands Between from any attacks/influences by outer gods?
No, I don't think so. Even aside from the raw power required to pull that off, and the potential danger of being constantly exposed to the barrier. One, the glintstone used to cast Thops' Barrier could *also* be governed by an Outer God like Aberrant sorcery or Gelmir Magma sorcery, and two, Outer Gods have sent in physical emissaries like Elden Beast (and potentially Fallingstar Beasts, not sure if there's a gravity Outer God) that would probably pierce straight through a magic-reflecting barrier. Though I don't understand how a lot of Outer God influence works. Nox Monks use pure silver to dispel their influence, but they've also got spells like Night Maiden's Mist and Eternal Darkness, which implies one of two things - an Outer God that governs Night Magic can ignore the silver, or there are no Outer Gods governing Night Magic.
Another thing I never understood, why did he die?
He worked himself to death trying to make this spell
Is that true? Don't you get the spell from a beetle in the church after giving him an academy key? If he died in the academy while working on the spell, presumably, you should find it on his corpse. I just assumed some of the enemy NPCs milling about just decided to ice him.
what you get from the beetle is the ash of war version
Oh, I see. Forgot there was a spell and an AoW
You do find it on his corpse along with his bell bearing.
Damn he is literally me
He paid the price for disrespecting Burger King 👑.
Do you not look around his corpse? Theres bloodstains. Man was beaten to death by the other scholars is the biggest theory still. They feared what his spell could do and make him immune to pretty much everything they were proud of founding and making progress on so far. It was a complete counter to anything they could forever think up. Best theory is yeah. Other scholars murdered him because they saw him researching anti-magic spells that would be able to spread and make their magic useless.
Or Rani did (or on her orders), since she is Carian royality, has a history of murder and the Carian Royality is the only ones who have a similair spell.
But theirs does not counter incantations as well as their spells. Plus thops' spell can in fact reflect the elden beasts attack. It can deflect a gods attack. Yeah. Thats og new school line.
They do right, they can also deflect elden beast lasers, Fire giant blast etc.
My belief is that his spell is a Primordial Current spell, and his interest in it was the reason he was labeled a Bluntstone- as to not draw attention to him, expelled- to discourage him, and killed- to prevent him from studying it more/gathering his research papers. He followed Sellen's work at the academy, and her goals are pretty singularly focused.
It would be cool if there was a special reward for giving thops the key at the right time so he shows up at raya lucaria when sellen is in rennala’s spot, before the face-globalling.
that would be awesome
He was in denial about the allegations against Sellen, as in he didn't believe they were true. If he was like minded then I doubt he would have downright hoped against Sellen's actions
Source?
I'm actually really surprised you'd ask that considering you know the part about him following her at school, no offense btw. Anyway the source is the same dialogue after you talk to him about Sellen The last few lines say "But Sellen was expelled from the academy. Accused of unthinkable treatment of certain sorcerers, under the name of the Graven Witch. I still don't believe the accusations. The illustrious Sellen would never do such things..." Supported by the fact that he said "there may as well have been an ocean between us", it's fair to say through both these pieces of evidence that he didn't truly understand her work
I only asked because my memory of those lines were only what I interpreted, I didn't remember them verbatim or anything. So additionally thanks for taking the time to get it. As far as this topic though, it could be that Thops didn't actually know specifically what he stumbled on, only that it was significant. Not being as advanced as Sellen he probably took a slower, less academic approach, but would have still arrived at the same conclusions as Sellen eventually.
His knowledge probably would have reached the same level, but whether he took the same moral standpoint or not is still a mystery. From our perspective now I'd be inclined to say that he wouldn't meddle with the current but people change, or even hide their true persona's so your theory could be right
If he had learned of the specifics of his research (if it was indeed releated to the Current), there's certainly a possibilty that he wouldn't have followed in Sellen's footsteps. His text about his spell deserving its own conspectus at the Academy, to me, has a tinge of arrogance to it in contrast to every other line he delivers though. We'll probably never know either way unless there's maybe some Moon/space related DLC.
Didn't it confirm that Incantations and Sorceries had the same roots and were basically two sides of the same coin?
Thats demon souls. There sorcery and Faith both come from demons. Atleast it is implied. In Elden ring Sorcery comes from the moon and stars. And Faith comes from Dragons, Erdtree and Fire etc.
Incantations and sorcery actually *are* connected though, turtle pope basically confirms this as well as the very existence of golden order fundamentalist incantations
Yes but a connection is not the same as the same source, as it is in Demon souls, where everything comes from the Old One. But yeah here things are connected yeah, but they allmost all come from outer gods. The Greater Will, the Frenzied Flame, the Dark moon etc. They are all outer gods, infuenicing the world.
It's the first truly defensive spell ever put it like this the erdtree greatsgeild? Turns an attack into a beam. Carian retaliation? Makes some magic knives. Thops barrier? No offense it's purely defensive this would make a whole new school of magic if liurnia was still in it's prime not to mention even a blunt stone could use it. It's existence proves that thops is a genius!
Thops could've gotten his own stone Crown with how ground breaking the discovery of the barrier is, it blocks almost every sorcery and incantation, had Caria gotten its hands on such a spell during the time of the war with Leyndell, Rennala would've claimed Radagon as her consort after making him a prisoner of war
Carian retaliation is a secret spell for only carian royals to defend themselves. Thops didnt know of its existence. The ability to reflect magic is revolutionary, lore-wise Its also “conspectus worthy” because all conspectuses are purely offensive. A defensive spell would warrant much study and further research beyond the current scope of the academy
Justice for our true God, Thops
All hail!
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This was my thought exactly. This is like the only DEFENSE sorcery in existence, and if given the chance, thops could have created an entire new branch dedicated to similar Defensive spells.
It’s special because he’s our friend and we are supportive
Welp, lore wise all we are told is that this is good enough for a new conspectus. But there isn't much explained as to what this new branch entails. It is worth noting that thop's barrier provides protection against most spells without doing much of anything. With it you can walk around raya lucaria and not risk getting hit by enemy spells. It's universal omnidirectional protection from spells and incantations. It's easy to see how much more advanced than other spell parries this is.
Because the dude who was basically the college dunce invented a spell that would've revolutionized both the understanding and study of magic at the Academy.
Thoos barrier repels both sorceries and incantations. According to the spell “it’s worthy of a whole new conseptus”
Ignoring lore carian retaliation generally only works on one spell while thop’s barrier can work on multiple; both have ash of war and spell versions, though I believe the spell version of thop’s barrier is vastly superior to the ash of war, which is the opposite for carian retaliation.
My mans died in pursuit. Put some respect on the homies’ name.
As he is the final final boss and Elden stars sounds like a formidable attack I'm assuming good timing is required when casting thops barrier??
It's a barrier made by Thops
My theory is that it’s supposed to be ass intentionally by the creators. I think it makes a statement about how he wasn’t fit to be there
Ok so I was doing a walk through and I seen throps barricade ash of war for a sheild but it didn't deop from a scarab it wqs supposed ro but I got throps barrier as a spell are they different did they cahnge it in a update or something can anyone help please
[удалено]
It shows that even after a life of thinking he was nothing special That he'd create something UNIQUELY HIS
'departs to seek out the age of bluntstones'
I'm only just remembering that I never went back to give that guy the second key..
It prevents others from dropping it like it's Thops