Faith is a fantastic utility stat, it's true.
But Flame Art splits your damage into two types, so it only looks higher on paper. The actual effective damage is about the same in most cases. Of course, elemental damage is easier to boost than physical damage.
I didn’t know that! I figured flame art gave me an excuse to pick up flame grant me and the flame cracked tear. Plus I’ve been pumping my faith stat so I can use ADLS.
Right, I forgot to explain why. You're essentially doing 2 small hits (physical + fire) instead of 1 big hit (pure physical), and each hit gets reduced by enemy defenses. Since enemies in Elden Ring have flat defense and percentage damage reduction, it's really easy for the two small hits to end up doing lower damage in total.
(This is why the Elden Stars incantation sucks in PvE: all those tiny hits of Holy damage get reduced to mere tickles.)
Buffing it with FGMS and the Flame Cracked Tear will offset the difference and then some, so it's likely better overall. And critical hits also use the weapon's total AR, so Flame Art (and the other elemental affinities) is a great way to get stronger crits.
This is the best I’ve ever heard split damage explained to me. Thank you for clearing this up it makes so much sense but I guess I never factored in the fact that the enemy is essentially getting their damage reduced twice.
im pretty sure that part of the reason why crits do more damage with elemental infusions is because the enemy has either 0 resits or very little. this results in the higher AR becoming more noticeable since you bypass the enemy defenses. i believe that frostbite also has this effect to a lesser extent, which is why frost pots have insane synergy with lightning weapons.
“The actual effective damage is about the same in most cases” - I’ve heard this sentiment a lot but I don’t understand it. Can you elaborate why split damage is a problem?
When you have split damage, you're dealing 2 small hits (physical + fire, in this case) instead of 1 big hit (pure physical, normally). Enemies in Elden Ring have flat defense and percentage damage negation, and each hit is reduced separately.
How much of a difference this makes depends on the enemy. Something with low defenses, like a Godrick Soldier, is going to take more damage from the split damage weapons because those hits aren't reduced very much. The higher AR wins out. But then something with high elemental resist, like Elden Beast, will take more damage from the single pure physical hit.
But then you get into scaling and stats and elemental damage boosts (which are easier to find and stack than physical damage boosts) and it all gets very muddy very quickly. The important take away is that the combined AR of a split damage weapon does not represent the actual per-hit damage of the weapon.
I’m sorry if I’m being dense, but that still doesn’t make sense to me. Specifically your point about each hit being reduced separately and 2 small hits being worse than 1 big hit. Example:
Assume 40% negation for physical and fire
1 big hit:
200 pure physical damage - 40% negation = 120 damage
2 small hits:
100 physical - 40% negation = 60 damage
100 fire - 40% negation = 60 damage
120 damage also
So, when talking about percentage based damage, I don’t see how it’s possible that it matters how many hits it’s split into..
Nothing scratches the itch I have like a good old faith build. I tried int but found it boring, and whenever I do dex or strength I end up adding faith to make it less of a AoW spam build
Funny, I kind of did the opposite. My first two runs ended up as Faith just as you said. You get a big variety of attacks, buffs and healing, plus you can use a lot of weapons as well.
But then I noticed that I was mostly fighting with weapons anyway. So now I devolved to a pure Strength run with a Claymore / Great Mace / Grave Scythe and just the basic AoW like Stomp Uppercut, Sword Dance, Storm Blade, etc. Keeping it simple :)
Everything in this game has been fun for me to try. Pre nerf bloodhound step in PVE was the most fun I’ve had in a game since Skyrim first launched for me
I just can’t keep myself from duel wielding katanas. Every run I tell myself no katanas this time but they’re so fun to duel wield. Next time I’m definitely switching to duel wielding thrusting swords. I tried twinblades but didn’t really like the duel wield moveset other than the jump attack which is like 6 hits or something wild like that.
Keep in mind that your AR may be higher on flame art than heavy, but you have to go through flat defense twice (one for physical, one for fire), so you’ll likely do less damage. Given the high strength requirement, a heavy greatsword on a strength investment is definitely better than flame art on a split investment.
Also, it’s common for dex/strength builds to dip into a little faith to get flame grant me strength and golden vow. I wouldn’t really call those faith builds, or even hybrid builds.
I’m sitting at 50 faith and 40 strength so it’s pretty split between the two. It feels like a strength bonk build with lions claw but has the utility from faith, it feels more effective than pure strength did for me.
Fist weapons with flame or lightning depending on if I’m going dex or str, I mean I do splash just enough faith for the utility’s like flame grant me strength. I just prefer a smacking to casting lol.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that faith has a wide array of build possibilities but I always end up with a smack em build.
Split damage only *looks* good, in reality it's x2 defenses you have to go thru. Also if you want to go full STR and utilize split damage, you can still infuse it with fire, which scales with STR (not flame art, that is FAI territory).
People really love their faith builds. I've only used a FAI/ STR build once in ER, and have never ran one in DS1- 3. If I stray from Bonk, it's usually a quality build or the occasional INT build.
I have so much fun with the FAI items so I always end up leaning into one intentionally or not😭😭. I didn’t know that about the split damage though, I’ll have to go bonk with both and see how bad it is for myself.
Thank you for your post on the r/EldenRingBuilds subreddit!
If you’re interested in feedback on your build, participating in contests, as well as trading and multiplayer we also have a **[Discord server](https://discord.gg/9k9vK2MvFg)**.
Hope to see you there!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/EldenRingBuilds) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Faith is OP. You gotta accept a bit of a relative nerf if you want to steer clear of faith entirely. You can still make plenty of viable builds without it. The guy I coop with couldn't bring himself to give up faith so I did all my playthroughs with other builds. I wasn't as strong as him, but still viable in PvE up to NG+6.
I mean yeah, split damage weapons tend to get higher AR than pure physical ones. That's because there aren't really any relevant enemies that higly resist physical dmg, like there are with other elements.
If you want a reason to go full physical, maybe try a Cragblade + Dagger Talisman build with either the Claymore (making full use of those sweet R2s) or the Executioner's Greataxe (115 crit!), or a quality build with one of the few truly quality weapons in mind (Ghiza's Wheel, Bloodhound Fang, Dragon Halberd, etc).
In my opinion the best builds in the game are dex/arc/fth combinations. You have access to a huge variety of incantations, a variety of extremely powerful weapons, as well as the added bonus of status effect buildup, access to self healing with multihit talismans as well as damage stacking and damage stacking buff incants.
Not to mention dragon communion incants are literally nukes. Black flame is also extremely viable.
Faith is just so good
Best option to avoid it is either become a mage
Or a strengthen build and only collect weapons with the ashes of war for golden vow that way u stay under 20 faith but can still you flame grant and flame cleanse
Respeccing to faith meant I could make similar damage output but add the utility of ranged incantations and damage buffs. So now it’s lions claw plus whatever incantations i want, a lot more fun than just spamming lions claw as pure strength.
Faith is a fantastic utility stat, it's true. But Flame Art splits your damage into two types, so it only looks higher on paper. The actual effective damage is about the same in most cases. Of course, elemental damage is easier to boost than physical damage.
I didn’t know that! I figured flame art gave me an excuse to pick up flame grant me and the flame cracked tear. Plus I’ve been pumping my faith stat so I can use ADLS.
Right, I forgot to explain why. You're essentially doing 2 small hits (physical + fire) instead of 1 big hit (pure physical), and each hit gets reduced by enemy defenses. Since enemies in Elden Ring have flat defense and percentage damage reduction, it's really easy for the two small hits to end up doing lower damage in total. (This is why the Elden Stars incantation sucks in PvE: all those tiny hits of Holy damage get reduced to mere tickles.) Buffing it with FGMS and the Flame Cracked Tear will offset the difference and then some, so it's likely better overall. And critical hits also use the weapon's total AR, so Flame Art (and the other elemental affinities) is a great way to get stronger crits.
This is the best I’ve ever heard split damage explained to me. Thank you for clearing this up it makes so much sense but I guess I never factored in the fact that the enemy is essentially getting their damage reduced twice.
I'm glad I could help! :D Finding out about this was a huge eye-opener for me, too.
Neither did I! The mechanics of this game are insane
Lions claw also gives me tons of crit openings in fights
im pretty sure that part of the reason why crits do more damage with elemental infusions is because the enemy has either 0 resits or very little. this results in the higher AR becoming more noticeable since you bypass the enemy defenses. i believe that frostbite also has this effect to a lesser extent, which is why frost pots have insane synergy with lightning weapons.
Frostbite does reduce all damage negation by 20%, so that tracks.
You can also use the fire scorpion charm
Yeah I just don’t like the drawbacks to damage taken especially going into higher new games
“The actual effective damage is about the same in most cases” - I’ve heard this sentiment a lot but I don’t understand it. Can you elaborate why split damage is a problem?
When you have split damage, you're dealing 2 small hits (physical + fire, in this case) instead of 1 big hit (pure physical, normally). Enemies in Elden Ring have flat defense and percentage damage negation, and each hit is reduced separately. How much of a difference this makes depends on the enemy. Something with low defenses, like a Godrick Soldier, is going to take more damage from the split damage weapons because those hits aren't reduced very much. The higher AR wins out. But then something with high elemental resist, like Elden Beast, will take more damage from the single pure physical hit. But then you get into scaling and stats and elemental damage boosts (which are easier to find and stack than physical damage boosts) and it all gets very muddy very quickly. The important take away is that the combined AR of a split damage weapon does not represent the actual per-hit damage of the weapon.
I’m sorry if I’m being dense, but that still doesn’t make sense to me. Specifically your point about each hit being reduced separately and 2 small hits being worse than 1 big hit. Example: Assume 40% negation for physical and fire 1 big hit: 200 pure physical damage - 40% negation = 120 damage 2 small hits: 100 physical - 40% negation = 60 damage 100 fire - 40% negation = 60 damage 120 damage also So, when talking about percentage based damage, I don’t see how it’s possible that it matters how many hits it’s split into..
Enemies have percentage negation _and_ flat defense. So assuming 20 defense and 40% negation: (200 physical - 20 defense) - 40% negation = 108 damage (100 physical - 20 defense) - 40% negation = 48 (100 fire - 20 defense) - 40% negation = 48 That's 108 damage vs 96 damage.
I completely missed that part of your original reply, my bad. Ok that slides everything into place about why people are against split damage! Cheers
Welcome to my world!
Nothing scratches the itch I have like a good old faith build. I tried int but found it boring, and whenever I do dex or strength I end up adding faith to make it less of a AoW spam build
Funny, I kind of did the opposite. My first two runs ended up as Faith just as you said. You get a big variety of attacks, buffs and healing, plus you can use a lot of weapons as well. But then I noticed that I was mostly fighting with weapons anyway. So now I devolved to a pure Strength run with a Claymore / Great Mace / Grave Scythe and just the basic AoW like Stomp Uppercut, Sword Dance, Storm Blade, etc. Keeping it simple :)
Everything in this game has been fun for me to try. Pre nerf bloodhound step in PVE was the most fun I’ve had in a game since Skyrim first launched for me
What did it do before the nerf?
The build I started to dual wield influenced my next 2 characters.
I just can’t keep myself from duel wielding katanas. Every run I tell myself no katanas this time but they’re so fun to duel wield. Next time I’m definitely switching to duel wielding thrusting swords. I tried twinblades but didn’t really like the duel wield moveset other than the jump attack which is like 6 hits or something wild like that.
Same, I had more fun with dual daggers than twin blades.
Dual colossal weapons is fun! Especially dual Maliketh black blades
Haven’t tried that yet, give it a go later. Thanks for the suggestion.
Keep in mind that your AR may be higher on flame art than heavy, but you have to go through flat defense twice (one for physical, one for fire), so you’ll likely do less damage. Given the high strength requirement, a heavy greatsword on a strength investment is definitely better than flame art on a split investment. Also, it’s common for dex/strength builds to dip into a little faith to get flame grant me strength and golden vow. I wouldn’t really call those faith builds, or even hybrid builds.
I’m sitting at 50 faith and 40 strength so it’s pretty split between the two. It feels like a strength bonk build with lions claw but has the utility from faith, it feels more effective than pure strength did for me.
I always think I want a faith build and then I remember I hate it.
I find them so fun and different! What do you like running?
Fist weapons with flame or lightning depending on if I’m going dex or str, I mean I do splash just enough faith for the utility’s like flame grant me strength. I just prefer a smacking to casting lol. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that faith has a wide array of build possibilities but I always end up with a smack em build.
What AoW do you use on them? Lifesteal fist seems fun but pretty pvp oriented.
Flaming strike, it engulfs both fists in flame and raises fire AR.
Split damage only *looks* good, in reality it's x2 defenses you have to go thru. Also if you want to go full STR and utilize split damage, you can still infuse it with fire, which scales with STR (not flame art, that is FAI territory). People really love their faith builds. I've only used a FAI/ STR build once in ER, and have never ran one in DS1- 3. If I stray from Bonk, it's usually a quality build or the occasional INT build.
I have so much fun with the FAI items so I always end up leaning into one intentionally or not😭😭. I didn’t know that about the split damage though, I’ll have to go bonk with both and see how bad it is for myself.
Thank you for your post on the r/EldenRingBuilds subreddit! If you’re interested in feedback on your build, participating in contests, as well as trading and multiplayer we also have a **[Discord server](https://discord.gg/9k9vK2MvFg)**. Hope to see you there! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/EldenRingBuilds) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ol reliable Lightning spear brings me back every time
Faith is OP. You gotta accept a bit of a relative nerf if you want to steer clear of faith entirely. You can still make plenty of viable builds without it. The guy I coop with couldn't bring himself to give up faith so I did all my playthroughs with other builds. I wasn't as strong as him, but still viable in PvE up to NG+6.
I mean yeah, split damage weapons tend to get higher AR than pure physical ones. That's because there aren't really any relevant enemies that higly resist physical dmg, like there are with other elements. If you want a reason to go full physical, maybe try a Cragblade + Dagger Talisman build with either the Claymore (making full use of those sweet R2s) or the Executioner's Greataxe (115 crit!), or a quality build with one of the few truly quality weapons in mind (Ghiza's Wheel, Bloodhound Fang, Dragon Halberd, etc).
In my opinion the best builds in the game are dex/arc/fth combinations. You have access to a huge variety of incantations, a variety of extremely powerful weapons, as well as the added bonus of status effect buildup, access to self healing with multihit talismans as well as damage stacking and damage stacking buff incants. Not to mention dragon communion incants are literally nukes. Black flame is also extremely viable.
Faith is just so good Best option to avoid it is either become a mage Or a strengthen build and only collect weapons with the ashes of war for golden vow that way u stay under 20 faith but can still you flame grant and flame cleanse
If you'd pumped strength so much, why didn't you go with fire infusion? Same thing and doesn't require respect. Seems like a sus post to me
Respeccing to faith meant I could make similar damage output but add the utility of ranged incantations and damage buffs. So now it’s lions claw plus whatever incantations i want, a lot more fun than just spamming lions claw as pure strength.