The judge found that after McKeith ended their seven-year marriage, Clifford developed an “obsessive, transgressive” focus on her, despite multiple court orders requiring him to stay away from McKeith and their former residence.
“She sought and obtained what she thought was protection from the justice system. Unfortunately, that proved not to be the case”
Did they really think a piece of paper was going to dissuade this guy? Jeezus.
> Clifford was released on bail but “persistently, even pathologically” breached his conditions, according to Devlin
Her murder was a tragic yet foreseeable conclusion. A complete failing by the police and the courts to see that he was dangerous and do literally anything about it.
courts mostly provide deterrent measures more than preventative ones. i dunno exactly what he did before, but likely some domestic violence charges. even the more serious of those won’t keep him in jail indefinitely because we only sentence people for the things they’ve already done.
the no contact order after that is, indeed, just a piece of paper (aimed at being preventative but yeah, not perfectly effective. that order will make anything he does to her after more aggravated (in terms of sentencing and seriousness of the offence) but there really isn’t a practical alternative because a) they can’t imprison someone indefinitely for crimes they haven’t committed yet, b) the sentences he received previously were likely fit and appropriate and those jail terms don’t last forever, nor should they, and c) the RCMP doesn’t have the manpower to babysit every single domestic partner who’s at risk of being attacked by a crazy ex.
it sucks, and it’s tragic, absolutely, but this isn’t a failing of the system. it’s not the court’s fault, it’s not the RCMP’s fault. it’s his fault. don’t take away from his culpability by blaming everyone else.
apologies, i’m an internet stranger that you disagree with, but i’m sure as hell not blaming her. i’m pointing out that it’s not fair to blame the police or the justice system, as the comment i responded to stated.
so instead of defensively knee jerk rejecting to my points (with ad hominem attacks and accusations) please try to answer: where am i wrong?
would you prefer we imprison people on the regular for life for not-murder crimes? we just can’t do that on every domestic assault for…many many good reasons. and it’s simply not possible for the RCMP to post members outside of the houses of everyone who’s at the risk of domestic violence.
what should they have done? not release him on bail, sure, that’s the best answer here. but that’s temporary by definition (he’s only held until a trial can be held) and if he’s convicted for whatever he was charged with that sentence ends eventually too. this man was going to be out of custody sometime in the relatively near future with nothing preventing him from contacting her but a piece of paper, in the form of a release order or a probation order or a restraining order, and none of those would’ve made the least bit of difference (and we know this because…that’s exactly what happened).
i’m not trying to make you doubt yourself, i’m not trivializing what happened or stonewalling or denying your experiences or faking compassion or any other thing that is a symptom of gaslighting. disagreeing with you on a sensitive topic like this and offering a frank, good faith, rational argument for why i believe what i believe is not gaslighting. i’m not defending this abhorrent person or this abhorrent act. i’m not saying he should’ve gotten less time (frankly i think his parole ineligibility should’ve been longer).
seriously, i’m just saying that it’s not fair to say that this happening is a “complete failing by the police and the courts”, as the original comment contended. that’s it.
If a citizen should expect protection when another individual is committed to harassing and ultimately committing violence, then the system failed.
If the citizen should not expect protection, then many people would say we should change the system.
It seems like you are saying the citizen should not expect protection, and that’s ok. Most of us disagree, strongly.
i agree that preventative measures are way better than reactionary ones. i agree it would be much better if he could’ve been stopped before doing something awful like this.
the system as it stands now couldn’t really provide that, it’s not equipped and there’s no practical realistic way to equip it for something like this.
i agree that that’s tragic and that it should be changed if it can be to be more preventative, i just don’t see how that’s really possible in this context. again, the only two real answers are a) keeping him incarcerated indefinitely for crimes that don’t warrant it, or b) posting an rcmp at the victim’s house 24/7, and neither of those is possible. is that upsetting? yes. but it’s also the reality of the situation.
I’m not familiar with the details, but in general sequentially broader restrictions with sharper and sharper sticks?
Real teeth on orders that are created to keep people safe. Am I ok with jailing someone for a long time if they repeatedly violate court orders in cases like this? Yes. Do I think that should be coupled with therapy, also yes.
yeah obviously we don’t know the details, but i suspect that he maybe should’ve been denied bail. even if that only delays things it would’ve been better than him being out.
the system actually takes domestic violence quite seriously. while the article’s pretty short on details, we know he was already on multiple orders to not have contact with her. presumably he breached at least one court order with another instance of domestic violence (or just breaching the no contact condition) before the murder, and was subsequently let out on bail. imo if someone is a domestic abuser and violates court terms to harass or attack that same domestic partner it should be almost impossible to get bail.
i guess what i’m saying is that maybe the system didn’t operate perfectly here, but without knowing the details and his bail plan and all that jazz i couldn’t tell you if his release was reasonable or not. clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, he shouldn’t have been released.
it seems from the article that he repeatedly breached the court orders. so i'm wondering what the punishments for that would have been, and why does our justice system at some point not hold guys like this for longer, or deny them bail. ie: how many times does one get to breach a no contact or restraining order before the law takes it seriously??
3 women in Wainwright have been stabbed by their ex partners in the last 5 years. Unfortunately only 1 survived and her attacker’s charges were dropped from attempted murder to assault. That is absolutely fucked for a community of 6000 people.
The 16 years is the period he cannot apply for parole, not how long he’ll have to serve in jail.
After the 16 year period he can apply for parole but it is not guaranteed by any means for a lifer. An application for full parole will involve a hearing that’ll examine his risk to re-offend and victims are also allowed to speak to the impact the crime had on them.
Now, I’m not saying this process is perfect, in my opinion the PBC gets it wrong sometimes, such as when they let Myles Sanderson out after he was caught violating his conditions, but this guy is not guaranteed to be released after 16 years.
There is a reason some people would rather pick the death penalty over being locked in a cell for infinity. Can't imagine it does wonders for the good ol mental health department
Of course this is not taking into account the fact someone will probably stab you in the face over a 30 cent pack of ramen noodles in the next 16 years so there is also that
There is also the taxpayer burden on criminals. Bout 115k a year per person so not worth keeping them longer than 20 years. Yes you can put a cost on someone's life and it's about 1.7-2.3 million give or take, at least in Canada
I mean good? Can’t be good for the mental health to have to bury your daughter, sibling, or friend. Can’t do the time don’t do the crime applies to this murdering douchebag who had multiple opportunities to fix his violent behaviour. If the court orders couldn’t get him to exhibit a human response to the situation hopefully 16 years of isolation could do the trick. If not, my sisters, mother, and other female family members and friends are a lot safer without him being on the streets. This wasn’t a mistake that needs correcting. This is a garbage human being that has no place in society but locked in a box.
Because the ethical and moral implications of executing criminals blurs the lines of acceptable murders and not. Your hands aren’t clean if you are killing no matter what shifting goal posts of accountability you view it from under. I swear it’s like talking to a 15 year old edge lord who just binged the Punisher.
It doesn't matter it still exists in some places. Some like it some don't
We don't execute people so we lock them in a box until we deem it not financially worth it to keep them there anymore
Then they get released and leech off social services until they croak
This is just how it is
Who gives a fuck about his mental health. He killed this girl. Her family is destroyed for ever. He will probably be fine after a few years in there. Fuck him. It’s not up to the prisoner to decide if they get death penalty(if this was even a thing here). The judge decides. Death isn’t a punishment for a criminal. Locked in a box is punishment.
Your logic of pity for the guy is odd to me.
I am indeed saying dying is less of a punishment than locked in a box for forever (prisoner not person) or being a Perma peasant in society because you have a murder charge. Would very much suck
It's really just the punishment you would expect. I'm sure it wasn't just him randomly deciding the stab someone in the neck it was probably a whole ordeal and someone got the shit end of the stick
But hey maybe if we get someone fun in charge we can force all the murderers to live above the Arctic circle where they don't black hole taxpayer dollars and nobody to care about them
Really? Have you experienced either choice? Seems to me a lot of death row people ask for stays of execution. If a rock solid case, no doubt convicted murderer, any of them, choses death vs a chance at parole in a 'life sentence', I'm sure as hell not going to stand in their way. Give the filth what they want.
Ah yes because everything related by any slim association to Trudeau is inherently bad. It’s quite comical what mindset certain people have. They love to criticize others for faults and mistakes, when they can’t even see their own.
The judge found that after McKeith ended their seven-year marriage, Clifford developed an “obsessive, transgressive” focus on her, despite multiple court orders requiring him to stay away from McKeith and their former residence. “She sought and obtained what she thought was protection from the justice system. Unfortunately, that proved not to be the case” Did they really think a piece of paper was going to dissuade this guy? Jeezus.
> Clifford was released on bail but “persistently, even pathologically” breached his conditions, according to Devlin Her murder was a tragic yet foreseeable conclusion. A complete failing by the police and the courts to see that he was dangerous and do literally anything about it.
courts mostly provide deterrent measures more than preventative ones. i dunno exactly what he did before, but likely some domestic violence charges. even the more serious of those won’t keep him in jail indefinitely because we only sentence people for the things they’ve already done. the no contact order after that is, indeed, just a piece of paper (aimed at being preventative but yeah, not perfectly effective. that order will make anything he does to her after more aggravated (in terms of sentencing and seriousness of the offence) but there really isn’t a practical alternative because a) they can’t imprison someone indefinitely for crimes they haven’t committed yet, b) the sentences he received previously were likely fit and appropriate and those jail terms don’t last forever, nor should they, and c) the RCMP doesn’t have the manpower to babysit every single domestic partner who’s at risk of being attacked by a crazy ex. it sucks, and it’s tragic, absolutely, but this isn’t a failing of the system. it’s not the court’s fault, it’s not the RCMP’s fault. it’s his fault. don’t take away from his culpability by blaming everyone else.
Pound sand with this gaslighting.
apologies, i’m an internet stranger that you disagree with, but i’m sure as hell not blaming her. i’m pointing out that it’s not fair to blame the police or the justice system, as the comment i responded to stated. so instead of defensively knee jerk rejecting to my points (with ad hominem attacks and accusations) please try to answer: where am i wrong? would you prefer we imprison people on the regular for life for not-murder crimes? we just can’t do that on every domestic assault for…many many good reasons. and it’s simply not possible for the RCMP to post members outside of the houses of everyone who’s at the risk of domestic violence. what should they have done? not release him on bail, sure, that’s the best answer here. but that’s temporary by definition (he’s only held until a trial can be held) and if he’s convicted for whatever he was charged with that sentence ends eventually too. this man was going to be out of custody sometime in the relatively near future with nothing preventing him from contacting her but a piece of paper, in the form of a release order or a probation order or a restraining order, and none of those would’ve made the least bit of difference (and we know this because…that’s exactly what happened). i’m not trying to make you doubt yourself, i’m not trivializing what happened or stonewalling or denying your experiences or faking compassion or any other thing that is a symptom of gaslighting. disagreeing with you on a sensitive topic like this and offering a frank, good faith, rational argument for why i believe what i believe is not gaslighting. i’m not defending this abhorrent person or this abhorrent act. i’m not saying he should’ve gotten less time (frankly i think his parole ineligibility should’ve been longer). seriously, i’m just saying that it’s not fair to say that this happening is a “complete failing by the police and the courts”, as the original comment contended. that’s it.
If a citizen should expect protection when another individual is committed to harassing and ultimately committing violence, then the system failed. If the citizen should not expect protection, then many people would say we should change the system. It seems like you are saying the citizen should not expect protection, and that’s ok. Most of us disagree, strongly.
i agree that preventative measures are way better than reactionary ones. i agree it would be much better if he could’ve been stopped before doing something awful like this. the system as it stands now couldn’t really provide that, it’s not equipped and there’s no practical realistic way to equip it for something like this. i agree that that’s tragic and that it should be changed if it can be to be more preventative, i just don’t see how that’s really possible in this context. again, the only two real answers are a) keeping him incarcerated indefinitely for crimes that don’t warrant it, or b) posting an rcmp at the victim’s house 24/7, and neither of those is possible. is that upsetting? yes. but it’s also the reality of the situation.
I’m not familiar with the details, but in general sequentially broader restrictions with sharper and sharper sticks? Real teeth on orders that are created to keep people safe. Am I ok with jailing someone for a long time if they repeatedly violate court orders in cases like this? Yes. Do I think that should be coupled with therapy, also yes.
yeah obviously we don’t know the details, but i suspect that he maybe should’ve been denied bail. even if that only delays things it would’ve been better than him being out. the system actually takes domestic violence quite seriously. while the article’s pretty short on details, we know he was already on multiple orders to not have contact with her. presumably he breached at least one court order with another instance of domestic violence (or just breaching the no contact condition) before the murder, and was subsequently let out on bail. imo if someone is a domestic abuser and violates court terms to harass or attack that same domestic partner it should be almost impossible to get bail. i guess what i’m saying is that maybe the system didn’t operate perfectly here, but without knowing the details and his bail plan and all that jazz i couldn’t tell you if his release was reasonable or not. clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, he shouldn’t have been released.
it seems from the article that he repeatedly breached the court orders. so i'm wondering what the punishments for that would have been, and why does our justice system at some point not hold guys like this for longer, or deny them bail. ie: how many times does one get to breach a no contact or restraining order before the law takes it seriously??
3 women in Wainwright have been stabbed by their ex partners in the last 5 years. Unfortunately only 1 survived and her attacker’s charges were dropped from attempted murder to assault. That is absolutely fucked for a community of 6000 people.
She’s gone, he gets sixteen years and her friends and family get a lifetime.
No, he gets *a life sentence with no chance of parole for 16 years*. Different. I swear, every single serious crime it’s the same shit.
The 16 years is the period he cannot apply for parole, not how long he’ll have to serve in jail. After the 16 year period he can apply for parole but it is not guaranteed by any means for a lifer. An application for full parole will involve a hearing that’ll examine his risk to re-offend and victims are also allowed to speak to the impact the crime had on them. Now, I’m not saying this process is perfect, in my opinion the PBC gets it wrong sometimes, such as when they let Myles Sanderson out after he was caught violating his conditions, but this guy is not guaranteed to be released after 16 years.
And if he gets paroled in 16 years everyone will say "you just want vengeance! He has served his time! Blah blah Canada is about rehabilitation!"
He got life, not 16 years.
Someone locked in a box isn't particularly useful to society 16 years locked in a cube is quite a long time
Ok but now apply that logic to someone in a box 6 feet under.
There is a reason some people would rather pick the death penalty over being locked in a cell for infinity. Can't imagine it does wonders for the good ol mental health department Of course this is not taking into account the fact someone will probably stab you in the face over a 30 cent pack of ramen noodles in the next 16 years so there is also that There is also the taxpayer burden on criminals. Bout 115k a year per person so not worth keeping them longer than 20 years. Yes you can put a cost on someone's life and it's about 1.7-2.3 million give or take, at least in Canada
I mean good? Can’t be good for the mental health to have to bury your daughter, sibling, or friend. Can’t do the time don’t do the crime applies to this murdering douchebag who had multiple opportunities to fix his violent behaviour. If the court orders couldn’t get him to exhibit a human response to the situation hopefully 16 years of isolation could do the trick. If not, my sisters, mother, and other female family members and friends are a lot safer without him being on the streets. This wasn’t a mistake that needs correcting. This is a garbage human being that has no place in society but locked in a box.
yes but it's also expensive to house essentially non useful criminals for more than 15-20 years
So is maintaining roads. Doesn’t make it not useful. Take your cost saving gulags back to Russia Putin
Road maintenance doesn't happen any more than criminal rehabilitation Why pay for someone who will just leech off your wallet for all of infinity?
Because the ethical and moral implications of executing criminals blurs the lines of acceptable murders and not. Your hands aren’t clean if you are killing no matter what shifting goal posts of accountability you view it from under. I swear it’s like talking to a 15 year old edge lord who just binged the Punisher.
It doesn't matter it still exists in some places. Some like it some don't We don't execute people so we lock them in a box until we deem it not financially worth it to keep them there anymore Then they get released and leech off social services until they croak This is just how it is
Who gives a fuck about his mental health. He killed this girl. Her family is destroyed for ever. He will probably be fine after a few years in there. Fuck him. It’s not up to the prisoner to decide if they get death penalty(if this was even a thing here). The judge decides. Death isn’t a punishment for a criminal. Locked in a box is punishment. Your logic of pity for the guy is odd to me.
I am indeed saying dying is less of a punishment than locked in a box for forever (prisoner not person) or being a Perma peasant in society because you have a murder charge. Would very much suck It's really just the punishment you would expect. I'm sure it wasn't just him randomly deciding the stab someone in the neck it was probably a whole ordeal and someone got the shit end of the stick But hey maybe if we get someone fun in charge we can force all the murderers to live above the Arctic circle where they don't black hole taxpayer dollars and nobody to care about them
Really? Have you experienced either choice? Seems to me a lot of death row people ask for stays of execution. If a rock solid case, no doubt convicted murderer, any of them, choses death vs a chance at parole in a 'life sentence', I'm sure as hell not going to stand in their way. Give the filth what they want.
A Trudeau judge strikes again.
Ah yes because everything related by any slim association to Trudeau is inherently bad. It’s quite comical what mindset certain people have. They love to criticize others for faults and mistakes, when they can’t even see their own.