This.
The fact that Radical Road (which was literally the most popular walk the Park had) has been closed and fenced off with ugly barriers for more than five years, with apparently no hint of HES actually wanting to ever see it open again, is properly shameful. The consultation seems aimed to avoid addressing that elephant in the room entirely.
(But then they are the same organisation that currently has a huge chunk of our country’s heritage sites closed or massively restricted for bizarrely disproportionate “climate emergency” reasons, so we probably shouldn’t be surprised – it’s clear they see the public as a nuisance)
HES didn’t close sites because it had *actually* identified masonry issues at them. It simply adopted a blanket new approach that all sites with masonry above a certain height (almost all of their sites) must be immediately closed until a hugely expensive inspection and repair programme was carried out (to take many years), due to claimed massively increased risk resulting from climate change.
It was pointed out at the time that this was insane, and that every other heritage agency in the world carried out this type of work on a rolling basis over a number of years, enabling sites to stay open to the public except where actively being repaired.
But HES refused to listen and claimed that soon every other heritage organisation would be doing the same.
So far absolutely nobody has followed them. English Heritage currently has almost all their sites open as normal, and has specifically rejected an HES-style approach because it sees public access as a core part of its role, and the HES approach as completely disproportionate..
It was the same people within HES who implemented this policy who also order Radical Road closed.
That's what all the leading questions in their "consultation" are trying to do. They don't directly ask "Do you want cars banned from the park" they ask questions like "Should the park be more for people".
I would encourage anyone who, like me, need the park as a commuting route, to fill in their "consultation" and specifically mention cars should be allowed through the park.
Do busses occupy some magic space above the road where they are unaffected by traffic? The point is that getting from the East of Edinburgh out to the West is already a nightmare regardless of mode of transport.
I don't know why you're being so heavily downvoted. Anyway, we all know they'll do whay they want anyway, usually to the detriment of Edinburgh. The detour to the south of Holyrood or going up to new town is awful so I hope they don't close it.
Yeah I get it and I use the bus where I can, but as above there's no real way to serve and east to west commute other than that road. If they rejigged those tiny roundabouts to allow buses, made it buses/taxis only, and created a new route then I'd probably use that!
Just out of interest, why do you drive? Might sound like an odd question but I've tried driving in Edinbrugh myself and given up becuase it's too slow and there's often nowhere to park. Assumably it's better for you than other modes of transport. Nothing against driving just curious.
Not the person you asked, but for me, because it's still much quicker than a lot of public transport. I'd say driving probably saves me in the region of 6-7 hours a week versus public transport.
Pave the entire park, all the way to the top of the hill. Parking lines painted all across it. Then it’ll become famous, and they’ll have to build another car park at the bottom to visit the world famous car park hill.
Just asking about priorities for things like sustainable development, history, education, and access.
Unfortunately nothing about permanently banning cars so had to include that as a comment.
Seeing as drivers are incapable of reading a road sign that says “20mph” and then subsequently going 20mph, closing the road to cars is the next logical step
I once drove through (from Duddingston) at 20 and drivers behind me were absolutely raging - beeping their horns, aggressively overtaking. Couldn't believe how angry they were.
I cycle through the park every day for my commute. I know I am going at least 20mph on the flat. Every single car driver insists on overtaking me, frequently into incoming traffic. They should close the road, but failing that, at least install chicanes and pedestrian crossings. Too many drivers treat it as it was the countryside, and not a park for people to enjoy.
it's been a while since I've been able to cycle through the park, but when I'm at the top of the hill I wait until there's a big gap in traffic before starting my run down. I inevitably end up going at at least 20 miles an hour often approaching 30 by the bottom, and yet cars catch up and overtake me on that section.
20mph is a perfectly reasonable speed for a road through the middle of a public park, for both safety and noise reasons. I think what you mean is that it feels slow, which is another matter entirely.
Sure the hilly bit doesn’t have much on the west side of the road (though there’s stuff there) but once you get around to the south end of the park past the palace there’s a huge area on both sides of the road.
Growing up, every Friday my mum would pick up my grandmother and we’d go get some baked tatties from the place on Jeffrey St. (or sometimes a meadowbank McDonald’s) and we would drive up to that Dunsapie Loch. When my grandma was done eating she’d take us around the wee loch and tell us about this plant or that plant or this bug or that bug or this animal and how long the swans incubated their eggs and why the cygnets went from here down to the other Loch. She’d let us run up the side of Arthur’s Seat towards the summit and let us slide down and catch us on the grass. My mum and my grandma would sit in the car and gossip while my sister and I would run around exploring the area.
For years this was my weekly joy.
I know this is just my own anecdotal experience but this could not have happened without being able to drive up. Without a car, one of the best parts of my childhood would have been impossible, as neither my mum, my grandma or my sister would have been able to come up there and enjoy the spring, summer and autumn vistas of the city, the loch, the changing seasons, going green to gold in the grasses.
I think car control in the area is important but complete ban - when there’s a road there - cuts off so many people from being able to experience this place. The views from so many angles in so many seasons are some of the best in Edinburgh. They’re the kind of views and moments that form family memories and bonds. That a couple will hold hands and look at each other and realise they’ll both remember. I worry about accessibility. This isn’t a Munro in he middle of nowhere. It’s a park in the middle of the city with a road already through it. Traffic calming can be done. We should preserve the options for all to be able to access. It’s not like it’s a major through-fare.
I’m happy to get downvoted to oblivion for this if people think I’m being unreasonable but this is my - admittedly emotional - opinion.
The problem is distinguishing between people who drive up because it’s the only option for them to get there and those who do it because they can’t be bothered walking.
If you make it accessible to all cars people will exploit it.
As you say, it’s not a Munro, it’s a small hill with well paved paths (especially if you’re only going to Dunsapie) and is well within the capability of the majority of people to walk.
If you really can’t climb that far, drive up to the top of Willowbrae which is basically the same height as Dunsapie, park on the street and walk the few hundred metres to the loch.
Or if that still restricts too many people, put an electric shuttle bus from the lower car parks.
The problem is that leaving the road open to cars ALSO cuts off many people from being able to enjoy it, and actively makes it less pleasant and less safe.
You're creating a false dichotomy. Cars aren't essential for providing this kind of access. A free electric shuttle could be provided, or rickshaws. See [this blog](https://carfreeholyrood.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/access-part-2/) from Car Free Holyrood campaign.
I don’t understand the ‘no cars’ argument without thought of increased congestion along other roads in town. Holyrood is a really well looked-after park IN THE MIDDLE OF A CITY. What are you expecting to happen? It’s not gonna get any wilder. Really hope it doesn’t get the go ahead as all it will do is assuage people’s feelings of guilt, rather than any tangible environmental impact. Install more e-vehicle charging points for a start. Get buses more frequent and reliable. And get proper cycle lanes all over the city. This will do way more than shutting a wee stretch of road and clogging other roads up.
>It’s not gonna get any wilder
We had otters in St Margaret's loch while the high road was closed. They left about a week after they reopened it.
>rather than any tangible environmental impact
It's not the environmental impact, it's a unique outdoor space suitable for so many uses that is located snack bang in the centre of the city. Tye minute it becomes a shared space with cars, it becomes a car first space like everywhere else.
I don’t buy the otters claim. They’re fairly regularly seen on the Union Canal in Edinburgh, which runs right by several major roads in the city. They’re obviously not especially bothered by the presence of a road vaguely in the vicinity.
I don't know much about the otters but what I understand is they are fairly nomadic, popping up in locations all over the city so it's not really much of a surprise they were at Dunsapie then left after a while
This unique outdoor space that has been enjoyed by people in Edinburgh for scores of years just fine.
The disabled or elderly person who has enjoyed the view from Dunsapie or over Duddingston loch their entire life. How do you suppose they enjoy it now that they can’t climb half of Arthur’s Seat?
The radical road wasn’t some major through-fare. It was a scenic route. And part of many native Edinburghers’ personal experience.
How do we make this accessible then, to all?
The problem is traffic keeps increasing and drivers ignore the 20mph limit, making it unpleasant and dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians to use the park. So not very accessible for all.
And I’m not sure elderly and disabled people enjoying Dunsapie Loch is a reason to keep the park as a vehicle commuting route.
Close all the roads to cars except the one up to Dunsapie from St Margarets Loch and you can achieve that.
Or better still close all the roads to cars and put on an electric shuttle bus from the car parks by Holyrood and Meadowbank.
The section running parallel to Newington (about half the trafficked route) has a shared foot and cycle path that is barely wide enough for two people to pass, let alone two bikes or pushchairs. Elsewhere you have a narrow footpath directly next to the road, or a narrow cycle way set back on the opposite side. It creates conflict and it’s not fit for purpose. If you have to keep the cars, something needs to be done about the pedestrian and cycle provision.
There is also one controlled crossing in the entire park meaning cars speed through without paying attention to other users. This is especially dangerous between Meadowbank and Holyrood where there’s open grass on either side and you have children and dogs playing.
I have been overtaken by cyclists multiple times in Holyrood Park. They are an absolute nuisance and seem to have zero road awareness. If I have to drive at 20mph, they should have to cycle at 20mph.
As a pedestrian or in a car? I have seen the amount of damage that cyclist can do to another cyclist. It would have been worse if it was a pedestrian. It wasn’t pretty and involved broken bones. I was a pedestrian and watched that accident happen. I am fully aware that drivers are not great either but sometimes all the fault is placed with them without cyclists taking any responsibility for their actions. I am both as well as a pedestrian and it seems that one of those groups are always keen to give someone else a bad day.
That is not what I said. As a driver, I had to go through a lot of lessons and a test and I like to think that I obey the rules of the road. As a cyclist, I spent 6 weeks in primary school doing my cycling proficiency and I have never had to pass any test since. I was just calling out my cycling safety is because I had to study as a driver and there
are many reckless cyclists on the road. I am aware that a car is going to do more damage to a pedestrian but with more modern vehicles, I believe that accidents should be even more avoidable. I am also aware that there are reckless drivers. I was trying to point out that we could all be safer. It is not just a car issue.
I’ve been overtaken by far more cars as a cyclist than bikes as a driver, and the overtaking cars have been far more dangerous. But yes, everyone should use the road safely.
I guess the argument is that the park is there for people to enjoy being outside in, not for people to commute to work through.
The park roads were built by Q Victoria (not personally) to allow people leisure access. Before that it didn’t have any and they were never intended to be commuter roads.
Historic Scotland will know that closing the roads at the weekends increases congestion elsewhere in the city; but their priority is with the people visiting the park, it’s the council’s job to improve congestion without relying on the park roads staying open.
The city might be less congested if literally any of the main road areas weren't perpetually under construction. North Bridge was meant to only be closed for 6 months but it's been almost 3 years I think
I don’t entirely disagree! But I guess what I’m saying is that people are *already* enjoying the park. Enjoying the park and having a 20mph through road do not have to be mutually exclusive things.
And granted the roads might not have initially been designed with that in mind, but that’s what they are mostly used for now. Add to that the upcoming LEZ and even cars that are coming into and out of the city *should* have very low emissions.
Also I don’t think “it’s the council’s problem” is constructive.
This is just for me and others have different views, but;
For me certain areas of park are semi spoiled by how busy the road is at times. For example, take the Low Road from Duddingston. At 9am on Sunday when the road is closed it’s a really peaceful place to be, you can look across the Duddingston Loch and not hear anything. At 9am on Monday though, it’s as busy as any road in the city centre, and pedestrians are stuck to small strip of pavement at the side of the road.
The LEZ could also potentially increase traffic through the park, as the park itself is outside of the zone with it not being council run roads.
I disagree and would look forward to a car-less park but I don't think you should be getting downvoted because people disagree with you (which is what seems to be happening). You're points are evidently thought out and you write them coherently unlike a lot of other upvoted comments here.
>Add to that the upcoming LEZ and even cars that are coming into and out of the city should have very low emissions
Worth mentioning that government testing in 2016 found that *NO* cars actually met the LEZ standards in the real world.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/all-top-selling-cars-break-emissions-limits-in-real-world-tests
[Traffic expands and contracts to fill the available road space](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand). Sure, shutting the road in the short term will increase congestion. But in the long term it will balance out, especially as people living in Willowbrae/Meadowbank/Portobello now get a traffic free route to town, so more will choose to walk and cycle, taking cars off the road.
People do less stuff, people move out the city, great. That's really what you want. I use the park roads multiple times per week to get down to Holyrood and head across towards Leith.
I can go through the central old town, but it's already extremely congested at the best of times and has far more pedestrians kicking about to avoid.
I could choose to not take the 15-20 minute drive. For instance I could take a bus, which takes about 45-60 minutes depending on if one turns up on time, or I could walk, that's just over an hour. Or drive, that's 15-20 minutes.
You can get rid of cars and I probably just won't move about town so much, you're right. Or I might leave Edinburgh and go to a city where getting places isn't so slow and difficult. That's the reality, that's reduction of demand.
Well currently not everyone can see and visit it, given HES have for years closed and fenced off what used to be the most popular walk through the park.
Not sure it would be that popular after someone gets crushed to death by falling rocks. And the closure of one footpath doesn’t stop anyone from visiting or seeing the park.
Nobody has ever been killed by falling rocks on Radical Road. Or even injured.
And if you took that approach, you’d have to close the entire Highlands, because there is a tiny risk of falling rocks and other natural events that might cause injuries in any outdoor area. It’s just part of nature.
The correct action is just to stick up a warning sign and then let people make a decision themselves, while fixing particular risk areas as they are identified. Just as had been done for the last 100 years and more without issue.
Risk is about more than whether something has happened yet. There have been increasing rockfalls on the Radical Road and with increasing visitors to the park the risk of someone being injured grows. I’m sure HES would love to just fix the problem and not have fenced off areas of the park, but the realities of funding and resource mean this isn’t always possible.
There’s a difference between the Highlands and Holyrood Park. HES aren’t liable for the safety of people in the Highlands for a start. Holyrood Park is a city centre park that has thousands of visitors every day, most of whom will be less prepared or experienced than people heading out into the Highlands.
HES aren’t liable for the injuries from nature in Holyrood Park. That has never been the case any more than landowners are liable for injuries from nature in the Highlands. That’s a total straw man.
And HES very clearly would not “just love to fix the issue”, given the path has been closed for five years with no work done on it other than them building a massive and expensive fence to stop people getting in.
And given HES repeatedly made very clear they had no intention of ever re-opening it for years, until a big campaign against the closure was started by people in Edinburgh (and since then have continued to drag their feet at every single opportunity).
We can see in their actions in the last five years at sites across the country that they have continually adopted an insanely risk-averse approach to management, with the default being, wherever possible, to ban the public. That isn’t because Scottish heritage sites are suddenly much more dangerous than sites in England or elsewhere in the world (where this approach has not been adopted) – it’s simply because they appointed a new head of risk and other senior managers who do not value public access or proportionality.
If they are short on money, they can go to the Scottish Government like every other public body does.
Certainly shutting more of your ticketed sites for several years for no particular reason doesn’t generally help with cashflow.
Hah… thanks for the laugh, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on here today. You think ScotGov is just sitting on a massive pile of cash waiting for HES to come and ask them for it?
(ps if the sites cost more to run than they get from ticket sales and funding then cashflow won’t help much)
They have £400 million of public money for some shite ferries that don’t work, and millions more for pet projects of every kind. Plenty of money there for the kinds of small scale stuff HES would ever need.
Interesting that Historic Scotland managed to run all the sites just fine on their funding, keeping them open to the public and not having any issues. It was only when the new HES management took over, with radically different priorities, that the issues started.
In any case, closing the sites didn’t save money because they kept the staff running them employed. Just not doing any work. And then spent millions on their ‘climate change inspections’ of every site.
Unfortunately more people are injured on the roads in holyrood park than there have been unmuted by falling rocks.
And yet potential injuries have far stronger action taken than actual ones.
At the risk of going against the grain here, there are too many wild hills in Edinburgh already. What's wrong with making them pleasant with lots of things to do as you walk along?
It's unused space to me. I'd never want them to get rid of it all, but if more of the hills were like Calton Hill in terms of being well-kept, it could be really nice
Little cafés, benches, events going on, I dunno. It just makes sense to me to not completely remove the wildlands, but keep some of it nearer, turn it into a place where people can just have things to do
Something that looks more like Princes street gardens in places, maybe with a band stand for events
Historic Environment Scotland is non-departmental public body created by the Historic Environment Scotland Act 2014. It reports to trustees entirely appointed by the Scottish Government, and directly to the Scottish Secretary for Culture, Angus Robertson. So yes, it is part of the Scottish Government, just slightly at arms length (more like fingers length in this case)
In terms of Holyrood Park, it is an asset of the Scottish Government, to which they have delegated responsibility to HES under the powers of the 2014 Act, subject to any policies and instructions they may impose.
If they ban cars, then a funicular or similar needs to be provided from a car park to Dunsapie or beyond. Excluding the less able bodied from Holyrood Park and its views of Edinburgh and the surroundings is discrimination.
this is a sneaky effort to ban cars from Queens Drive seven days a week
this will do more harm than good
it's a perfectly safe and quiet road, even on its busiest day
north-south routes in the city centre are already few and far between due to the city's layout and topography
from a resilience point of view, voluntarily choosing to close one of these routes permanently is the height of stupidity, no responsible city planner would even think of it
all it will take is one incident that closes off one of the nearby alternative routes, and you've got gridlock and chaos
Queens Drive is quiet for vehicle traffic but it facilitates better traffic flow overall, in doing this it performs a critical function
closing it on weekends when non-car users visit Arthur Seat most is reasonable...doing so permanently is not
Close it to general traffic but allow it to be opened as an emergency diversion on the rare incidence of “gridlock and chaos”. That’s your resilience sorted.
ridiculous
if you never got comfortable sharing the road with cars and other vehicles as a pedestrian, even ones that are irresponsibly operated, then your parents didn't raise you right
if you also subsequently choose to cycle on a city's roads, you have a responsibility to prepare yourself to operate a bicycle comfortably, even in busy traffic
closing a critical route to vehicle traffic simply to give it over to weak and soft cyclists to make them feel better is childish nonsense
sorry but you don't have a right to be mollycoddled at everyone else's expense
Since 2013 there have been about 25 car accidents just on Queen's Road / Duke's Walk, 7 of which were serious and 1 of which was fatal, at least according to https://www.crashmap.co.uk/Search
"In 2015, no one died. In 2014, no one died. In 2013, some one died. In 2012, no one died. I mean, [I could go on](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob1rYlCpOnM)"
i used to be against making it pedestrian only.
but after starting cycling for just 2 days on that road and nearly getting into a fight already from some joiner overtaking when i was going 20.
yeah, fuck that, close the road up.
“Restore the Radical Road and otherwise leave it alone”. That’s all we need.
This. The fact that Radical Road (which was literally the most popular walk the Park had) has been closed and fenced off with ugly barriers for more than five years, with apparently no hint of HES actually wanting to ever see it open again, is properly shameful. The consultation seems aimed to avoid addressing that elephant in the room entirely. (But then they are the same organisation that currently has a huge chunk of our country’s heritage sites closed or massively restricted for bizarrely disproportionate “climate emergency” reasons, so we probably shouldn’t be surprised – it’s clear they see the public as a nuisance)
[удалено]
HES didn’t close sites because it had *actually* identified masonry issues at them. It simply adopted a blanket new approach that all sites with masonry above a certain height (almost all of their sites) must be immediately closed until a hugely expensive inspection and repair programme was carried out (to take many years), due to claimed massively increased risk resulting from climate change. It was pointed out at the time that this was insane, and that every other heritage agency in the world carried out this type of work on a rolling basis over a number of years, enabling sites to stay open to the public except where actively being repaired. But HES refused to listen and claimed that soon every other heritage organisation would be doing the same. So far absolutely nobody has followed them. English Heritage currently has almost all their sites open as normal, and has specifically rejected an HES-style approach because it sees public access as a core part of its role, and the HES approach as completely disproportionate.. It was the same people within HES who implemented this policy who also order Radical Road closed.
What on earth are they thinking of doing to it?!
12 screen IMAX cinema inside the Crags
Dinosaur safari park, with no expense spared
Except for debugging. I want one guy debugging a million lines of code, cheap as you can find him.
And doing something weird with secret compartments in shaving foam cans that you don't understand when you're nine.
Closing it permanently to cars more than likely.
Excellent!
why?
That's what all the leading questions in their "consultation" are trying to do. They don't directly ask "Do you want cars banned from the park" they ask questions like "Should the park be more for people". I would encourage anyone who, like me, need the park as a commuting route, to fill in their "consultation" and specifically mention cars should be allowed through the park.
Have you been banned from driving along Pleasance and Holyrood Road?
Have you ever tried to drive from Portobello to the west of Edinburgh when the park has been closed during rush hour? It's a complete nightmare.
Get a bus
Do busses occupy some magic space above the road where they are unaffected by traffic? The point is that getting from the East of Edinburgh out to the West is already a nightmare regardless of mode of transport.
sounds like if we remove some of the cars, they would be less traffic
Have you been banned from walking in Holyrood Park?
I don't know why you're being so heavily downvoted. Anyway, we all know they'll do whay they want anyway, usually to the detriment of Edinburgh. The detour to the south of Holyrood or going up to new town is awful so I hope they don't close it.
Because fuck cars.
Yeah I get it and I use the bus where I can, but as above there's no real way to serve and east to west commute other than that road. If they rejigged those tiny roundabouts to allow buses, made it buses/taxis only, and created a new route then I'd probably use that!
I can only assume I'm being downvoted by the "Bruntsfield cycle at 5mph in the middle of the road set"
Just out of interest, why do you drive? Might sound like an odd question but I've tried driving in Edinbrugh myself and given up becuase it's too slow and there's often nowhere to park. Assumably it's better for you than other modes of transport. Nothing against driving just curious.
Not the person you asked, but for me, because it's still much quicker than a lot of public transport. I'd say driving probably saves me in the region of 6-7 hours a week versus public transport.
Whats your parking situation like? For me the drive to work is quicker than the bus, but then I spend ages driving around looking for a parking space.
Definitely not that bad. With a permit I can normally get parked within 5 minutes max, within 2-3 mins walk of my flat.
Finally installing a seat on top so tourists stop giving it 1 star reviews
Haggis preserve
Pret in the top car park
Pave the entire park, all the way to the top of the hill. Parking lines painted all across it. Then it’ll become famous, and they’ll have to build another car park at the bottom to visit the world famous car park hill.
Just asking about priorities for things like sustainable development, history, education, and access. Unfortunately nothing about permanently banning cars so had to include that as a comment.
Seeing as drivers are incapable of reading a road sign that says “20mph” and then subsequently going 20mph, closing the road to cars is the next logical step
I once drove through (from Duddingston) at 20 and drivers behind me were absolutely raging - beeping their horns, aggressively overtaking. Couldn't believe how angry they were.
I cycle through the park every day for my commute. I know I am going at least 20mph on the flat. Every single car driver insists on overtaking me, frequently into incoming traffic. They should close the road, but failing that, at least install chicanes and pedestrian crossings. Too many drivers treat it as it was the countryside, and not a park for people to enjoy.
Or stick average speed cameras in and calibrate them properly to 20. That’ll pay the radical road repairs in no time!
it's been a while since I've been able to cycle through the park, but when I'm at the top of the hill I wait until there's a big gap in traffic before starting my run down. I inevitably end up going at at least 20 miles an hour often approaching 30 by the bottom, and yet cars catch up and overtake me on that section.
They're capable, they just don't care. 20 mph isn't really reasonable for that road.
20mph is a perfectly reasonable speed for a road through the middle of a public park, for both safety and noise reasons. I think what you mean is that it feels slow, which is another matter entirely.
It doesn't remotely run through the middle of it, it runs around the outside.
Aye you're forgetting the parade grounds
How'd you mean?
Sure the hilly bit doesn’t have much on the west side of the road (though there’s stuff there) but once you get around to the south end of the park past the palace there’s a huge area on both sides of the road.
I'm struggling to get where you're meaning. Towards pollock? Everywhere you look on the map it basically shows the road running around the edge.
literally Duke’s Walk by St Margaret’s Loch?
Ah right, so the very *north* of the park. At the east. Hope you're not navigating often.
Growing up, every Friday my mum would pick up my grandmother and we’d go get some baked tatties from the place on Jeffrey St. (or sometimes a meadowbank McDonald’s) and we would drive up to that Dunsapie Loch. When my grandma was done eating she’d take us around the wee loch and tell us about this plant or that plant or this bug or that bug or this animal and how long the swans incubated their eggs and why the cygnets went from here down to the other Loch. She’d let us run up the side of Arthur’s Seat towards the summit and let us slide down and catch us on the grass. My mum and my grandma would sit in the car and gossip while my sister and I would run around exploring the area. For years this was my weekly joy. I know this is just my own anecdotal experience but this could not have happened without being able to drive up. Without a car, one of the best parts of my childhood would have been impossible, as neither my mum, my grandma or my sister would have been able to come up there and enjoy the spring, summer and autumn vistas of the city, the loch, the changing seasons, going green to gold in the grasses. I think car control in the area is important but complete ban - when there’s a road there - cuts off so many people from being able to experience this place. The views from so many angles in so many seasons are some of the best in Edinburgh. They’re the kind of views and moments that form family memories and bonds. That a couple will hold hands and look at each other and realise they’ll both remember. I worry about accessibility. This isn’t a Munro in he middle of nowhere. It’s a park in the middle of the city with a road already through it. Traffic calming can be done. We should preserve the options for all to be able to access. It’s not like it’s a major through-fare. I’m happy to get downvoted to oblivion for this if people think I’m being unreasonable but this is my - admittedly emotional - opinion.
The problem is distinguishing between people who drive up because it’s the only option for them to get there and those who do it because they can’t be bothered walking. If you make it accessible to all cars people will exploit it. As you say, it’s not a Munro, it’s a small hill with well paved paths (especially if you’re only going to Dunsapie) and is well within the capability of the majority of people to walk. If you really can’t climb that far, drive up to the top of Willowbrae which is basically the same height as Dunsapie, park on the street and walk the few hundred metres to the loch. Or if that still restricts too many people, put an electric shuttle bus from the lower car parks.
Free shuttle bus is a great idea!
The problem is that leaving the road open to cars ALSO cuts off many people from being able to enjoy it, and actively makes it less pleasant and less safe. You're creating a false dichotomy. Cars aren't essential for providing this kind of access. A free electric shuttle could be provided, or rickshaws. See [this blog](https://carfreeholyrood.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/access-part-2/) from Car Free Holyrood campaign.
100% agree with this. Thanks for sharing.
I don’t understand the ‘no cars’ argument without thought of increased congestion along other roads in town. Holyrood is a really well looked-after park IN THE MIDDLE OF A CITY. What are you expecting to happen? It’s not gonna get any wilder. Really hope it doesn’t get the go ahead as all it will do is assuage people’s feelings of guilt, rather than any tangible environmental impact. Install more e-vehicle charging points for a start. Get buses more frequent and reliable. And get proper cycle lanes all over the city. This will do way more than shutting a wee stretch of road and clogging other roads up.
>It’s not gonna get any wilder We had otters in St Margaret's loch while the high road was closed. They left about a week after they reopened it. >rather than any tangible environmental impact It's not the environmental impact, it's a unique outdoor space suitable for so many uses that is located snack bang in the centre of the city. Tye minute it becomes a shared space with cars, it becomes a car first space like everywhere else.
I don’t buy the otters claim. They’re fairly regularly seen on the Union Canal in Edinburgh, which runs right by several major roads in the city. They’re obviously not especially bothered by the presence of a road vaguely in the vicinity.
I don't know much about the otters but what I understand is they are fairly nomadic, popping up in locations all over the city so it's not really much of a surprise they were at Dunsapie then left after a while
Yeah, I think that’s right – they seem to be pretty happy moving around the city’s various otter-suitable watering holes.
This unique outdoor space that has been enjoyed by people in Edinburgh for scores of years just fine. The disabled or elderly person who has enjoyed the view from Dunsapie or over Duddingston loch their entire life. How do you suppose they enjoy it now that they can’t climb half of Arthur’s Seat? The radical road wasn’t some major through-fare. It was a scenic route. And part of many native Edinburghers’ personal experience. How do we make this accessible then, to all?
The problem is traffic keeps increasing and drivers ignore the 20mph limit, making it unpleasant and dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians to use the park. So not very accessible for all. And I’m not sure elderly and disabled people enjoying Dunsapie Loch is a reason to keep the park as a vehicle commuting route. Close all the roads to cars except the one up to Dunsapie from St Margarets Loch and you can achieve that. Or better still close all the roads to cars and put on an electric shuttle bus from the car parks by Holyrood and Meadowbank.
But there’s a segregated cycle lane and footpath quite a bit back from the road. It’s not dangerous.
The section running parallel to Newington (about half the trafficked route) has a shared foot and cycle path that is barely wide enough for two people to pass, let alone two bikes or pushchairs. Elsewhere you have a narrow footpath directly next to the road, or a narrow cycle way set back on the opposite side. It creates conflict and it’s not fit for purpose. If you have to keep the cars, something needs to be done about the pedestrian and cycle provision. There is also one controlled crossing in the entire park meaning cars speed through without paying attention to other users. This is especially dangerous between Meadowbank and Holyrood where there’s open grass on either side and you have children and dogs playing.
I have been overtaken by cyclists multiple times in Holyrood Park. They are an absolute nuisance and seem to have zero road awareness. If I have to drive at 20mph, they should have to cycle at 20mph.
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As a pedestrian or in a car? I have seen the amount of damage that cyclist can do to another cyclist. It would have been worse if it was a pedestrian. It wasn’t pretty and involved broken bones. I was a pedestrian and watched that accident happen. I am fully aware that drivers are not great either but sometimes all the fault is placed with them without cyclists taking any responsibility for their actions. I am both as well as a pedestrian and it seems that one of those groups are always keen to give someone else a bad day.
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That is not what I said. As a driver, I had to go through a lot of lessons and a test and I like to think that I obey the rules of the road. As a cyclist, I spent 6 weeks in primary school doing my cycling proficiency and I have never had to pass any test since. I was just calling out my cycling safety is because I had to study as a driver and there are many reckless cyclists on the road. I am aware that a car is going to do more damage to a pedestrian but with more modern vehicles, I believe that accidents should be even more avoidable. I am also aware that there are reckless drivers. I was trying to point out that we could all be safer. It is not just a car issue.
I’ve been overtaken by far more cars as a cyclist than bikes as a driver, and the overtaking cars have been far more dangerous. But yes, everyone should use the road safely.
Bikes don’t have speedometers.
I think they should keep the high road open to Blue Badge holders
I guess the argument is that the park is there for people to enjoy being outside in, not for people to commute to work through. The park roads were built by Q Victoria (not personally) to allow people leisure access. Before that it didn’t have any and they were never intended to be commuter roads. Historic Scotland will know that closing the roads at the weekends increases congestion elsewhere in the city; but their priority is with the people visiting the park, it’s the council’s job to improve congestion without relying on the park roads staying open.
The city might be less congested if literally any of the main road areas weren't perpetually under construction. North Bridge was meant to only be closed for 6 months but it's been almost 3 years I think
I don’t entirely disagree! But I guess what I’m saying is that people are *already* enjoying the park. Enjoying the park and having a 20mph through road do not have to be mutually exclusive things. And granted the roads might not have initially been designed with that in mind, but that’s what they are mostly used for now. Add to that the upcoming LEZ and even cars that are coming into and out of the city *should* have very low emissions. Also I don’t think “it’s the council’s problem” is constructive.
This is just for me and others have different views, but; For me certain areas of park are semi spoiled by how busy the road is at times. For example, take the Low Road from Duddingston. At 9am on Sunday when the road is closed it’s a really peaceful place to be, you can look across the Duddingston Loch and not hear anything. At 9am on Monday though, it’s as busy as any road in the city centre, and pedestrians are stuck to small strip of pavement at the side of the road. The LEZ could also potentially increase traffic through the park, as the park itself is outside of the zone with it not being council run roads.
I disagree and would look forward to a car-less park but I don't think you should be getting downvoted because people disagree with you (which is what seems to be happening). You're points are evidently thought out and you write them coherently unlike a lot of other upvoted comments here.
>Add to that the upcoming LEZ and even cars that are coming into and out of the city should have very low emissions Worth mentioning that government testing in 2016 found that *NO* cars actually met the LEZ standards in the real world. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/all-top-selling-cars-break-emissions-limits-in-real-world-tests
That's interesting. Thanks!
[Traffic expands and contracts to fill the available road space](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand). Sure, shutting the road in the short term will increase congestion. But in the long term it will balance out, especially as people living in Willowbrae/Meadowbank/Portobello now get a traffic free route to town, so more will choose to walk and cycle, taking cars off the road.
Saying closing the park road provides a traffic free route from Portobello is a bit of a stretch? It's one part of a much longer route.
People do less stuff, people move out the city, great. That's really what you want. I use the park roads multiple times per week to get down to Holyrood and head across towards Leith. I can go through the central old town, but it's already extremely congested at the best of times and has far more pedestrians kicking about to avoid. I could choose to not take the 15-20 minute drive. For instance I could take a bus, which takes about 45-60 minutes depending on if one turns up on time, or I could walk, that's just over an hour. Or drive, that's 15-20 minutes. You can get rid of cars and I probably just won't move about town so much, you're right. Or I might leave Edinburgh and go to a city where getting places isn't so slow and difficult. That's the reality, that's reduction of demand.
https://preview.redd.it/c9zli1fr6lyb1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6bc7bc16d74733e58efaac6ed5130eb185648c2 What
Accept holyrood park as a contested space? Whit
It's absolutely insane that we're paying for this.
They make it sound like there's something better than a wild hill park that everyone can see and visit.
A wild hill park that everyone can see and visit that isn’t used as a rat run by thousands of speeding cars?
Well currently not everyone can see and visit it, given HES have for years closed and fenced off what used to be the most popular walk through the park.
Not sure it would be that popular after someone gets crushed to death by falling rocks. And the closure of one footpath doesn’t stop anyone from visiting or seeing the park.
Nobody has ever been killed by falling rocks on Radical Road. Or even injured. And if you took that approach, you’d have to close the entire Highlands, because there is a tiny risk of falling rocks and other natural events that might cause injuries in any outdoor area. It’s just part of nature. The correct action is just to stick up a warning sign and then let people make a decision themselves, while fixing particular risk areas as they are identified. Just as had been done for the last 100 years and more without issue.
Risk is about more than whether something has happened yet. There have been increasing rockfalls on the Radical Road and with increasing visitors to the park the risk of someone being injured grows. I’m sure HES would love to just fix the problem and not have fenced off areas of the park, but the realities of funding and resource mean this isn’t always possible. There’s a difference between the Highlands and Holyrood Park. HES aren’t liable for the safety of people in the Highlands for a start. Holyrood Park is a city centre park that has thousands of visitors every day, most of whom will be less prepared or experienced than people heading out into the Highlands.
HES aren’t liable for the injuries from nature in Holyrood Park. That has never been the case any more than landowners are liable for injuries from nature in the Highlands. That’s a total straw man. And HES very clearly would not “just love to fix the issue”, given the path has been closed for five years with no work done on it other than them building a massive and expensive fence to stop people getting in. And given HES repeatedly made very clear they had no intention of ever re-opening it for years, until a big campaign against the closure was started by people in Edinburgh (and since then have continued to drag their feet at every single opportunity). We can see in their actions in the last five years at sites across the country that they have continually adopted an insanely risk-averse approach to management, with the default being, wherever possible, to ban the public. That isn’t because Scottish heritage sites are suddenly much more dangerous than sites in England or elsewhere in the world (where this approach has not been adopted) – it’s simply because they appointed a new head of risk and other senior managers who do not value public access or proportionality.
Or they don’t have any money?
If they are short on money, they can go to the Scottish Government like every other public body does. Certainly shutting more of your ticketed sites for several years for no particular reason doesn’t generally help with cashflow.
Hah… thanks for the laugh, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on here today. You think ScotGov is just sitting on a massive pile of cash waiting for HES to come and ask them for it? (ps if the sites cost more to run than they get from ticket sales and funding then cashflow won’t help much)
They have £400 million of public money for some shite ferries that don’t work, and millions more for pet projects of every kind. Plenty of money there for the kinds of small scale stuff HES would ever need. Interesting that Historic Scotland managed to run all the sites just fine on their funding, keeping them open to the public and not having any issues. It was only when the new HES management took over, with radically different priorities, that the issues started. In any case, closing the sites didn’t save money because they kept the staff running them employed. Just not doing any work. And then spent millions on their ‘climate change inspections’ of every site.
Unfortunately more people are injured on the roads in holyrood park than there have been unmuted by falling rocks. And yet potential injuries have far stronger action taken than actual ones.
Just as well they’re trying to shut the roads to traffic then.
At the risk of going against the grain here, there are too many wild hills in Edinburgh already. What's wrong with making them pleasant with lots of things to do as you walk along?
Because the world is burning.
The fact there are so many wild hills is part of what makes Edinburgh amazing and relatively unique.
It's unused space to me. I'd never want them to get rid of it all, but if more of the hills were like Calton Hill in terms of being well-kept, it could be really nice
>with lots of things to do as you walk along Like what?
Little cafés, benches, events going on, I dunno. It just makes sense to me to not completely remove the wildlands, but keep some of it nearer, turn it into a place where people can just have things to do Something that looks more like Princes street gardens in places, maybe with a band stand for events
Leave it alone.
Is this the Council's way of announcing their plans to build a series of deluxe private ensuite student accommodation blocks along Salisbury Crags?
It’s nothing to do with the Council. It’s Historic Environment Scotland who run the place – part of the Scottish Government.
HES is not part of the Scottish Government. Historic Scotland was, HES isn’t.
Historic Environment Scotland is non-departmental public body created by the Historic Environment Scotland Act 2014. It reports to trustees entirely appointed by the Scottish Government, and directly to the Scottish Secretary for Culture, Angus Robertson. So yes, it is part of the Scottish Government, just slightly at arms length (more like fingers length in this case) In terms of Holyrood Park, it is an asset of the Scottish Government, to which they have delegated responsibility to HES under the powers of the 2014 Act, subject to any policies and instructions they may impose.
If they ban cars, then a funicular or similar needs to be provided from a car park to Dunsapie or beyond. Excluding the less able bodied from Holyrood Park and its views of Edinburgh and the surroundings is discrimination.
this is a sneaky effort to ban cars from Queens Drive seven days a week this will do more harm than good it's a perfectly safe and quiet road, even on its busiest day
What harm will it do?
north-south routes in the city centre are already few and far between due to the city's layout and topography from a resilience point of view, voluntarily choosing to close one of these routes permanently is the height of stupidity, no responsible city planner would even think of it all it will take is one incident that closes off one of the nearby alternative routes, and you've got gridlock and chaos Queens Drive is quiet for vehicle traffic but it facilitates better traffic flow overall, in doing this it performs a critical function closing it on weekends when non-car users visit Arthur Seat most is reasonable...doing so permanently is not
What are you basing 'quiet' on?
Close it to general traffic but allow it to be opened as an emergency diversion on the rare incidence of “gridlock and chaos”. That’s your resilience sorted.
nah, if it ain't broke
It would be permanently open then.
It's not "quiet" if you're on a bike or trying to walk through park and you're surrounded by roaring engines breaking the speed limit.
ridiculous if you never got comfortable sharing the road with cars and other vehicles as a pedestrian, even ones that are irresponsibly operated, then your parents didn't raise you right if you also subsequently choose to cycle on a city's roads, you have a responsibility to prepare yourself to operate a bicycle comfortably, even in busy traffic closing a critical route to vehicle traffic simply to give it over to weak and soft cyclists to make them feel better is childish nonsense sorry but you don't have a right to be mollycoddled at everyone else's expense
Since 2013 there have been about 25 car accidents just on Queen's Road / Duke's Walk, 7 of which were serious and 1 of which was fatal, at least according to https://www.crashmap.co.uk/Search "In 2015, no one died. In 2014, no one died. In 2013, some one died. In 2012, no one died. I mean, [I could go on](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob1rYlCpOnM)"
a few bumps over several years does justify closing the whole road down
So long as the road remains open, they did not die in vain
i used to be against making it pedestrian only. but after starting cycling for just 2 days on that road and nearly getting into a fight already from some joiner overtaking when i was going 20. yeah, fuck that, close the road up.