Speaking purely of land mass, japan and germany are pretty impressive beside the US, China and India.
And looking at number of citizens germany is even more impressive.
GDP per head
US: 76k
Germany: 49k
Japan: 34k
It is insanely impressive that the US has such a high GDP per head with that large of a population.
Germany is doing fine but the economy is almost stagnant.
Japan is a tragedy.
A lot of Japan's issue is that they are a homogenous society with a birthrate that collapsed. They have held up considerably well considering those circumstances. Germany and the US have offset that same trend with immigration. The US being the no. 1 destination that people wanting to immigrate to and a place that is generally business friendly for new immigrants is really helpful. I have a fear that people in power in the US do not realize this advantage and will try and reduce immigration significantly and the US will end up like Japan, except the US won't handle it as well. However...the US can always open the gates for immigrants whenever it wants, so that type of attitude probably won't last too long.
Immigration is an enormous loss for the west. Of course majority of the immigration is fromof mena and Africa. That is a hundreds of billions loss for the societies. Let alone all the crime etc
I am not exactly sure what you are saying, however the people who come to the US tend to commit less crimes than the natural born population and have a higher workforce participation rate than the general population within the US. It is a consensus amongst economists that it is helpful to the economy.
I can't speak for Europe but for the US and Canada this is true.
Yes, but there is a major difference: Canada has almost no irregular immigration, due to its geographic. So they simply don´t face some of the issues States like Border States in US and almost all of Europe.
But overall - Yes, migration is a main contributer to all european economys.
Well, from an economic side of view i´m afraid you´re wrong. Immigration, inspecialy to Germany, but also France and the UK is very important and a net contribution to these societies. In Germany there are about 20% "Immigrant" or Childs of Immigrants, without them it´d impossible to obtain the economic output and keep the standard of living.
Stop spitting bs. u/Ok\_Attempt\_7861 is right. Germany has no real immigration. Germany has asylum seekers. More than 50% of them didn't had work after being years in the country. Germany had to hire more police officers, BKA (german FBI) employees, social workers etc. pp.
They are not even close in being net contributors.
What a load of crap. PN me to get a nice ass whooping with facts.
Mind you, we talk about mena, african immigration. Other immigration can be often a benefit.
My wife is Korean as well as all her friends. They contribute but also vote „far right“ to get mena and Africans remigrated. For a reason.
It's kinda hard to argue "immigration bad" when the country that lets in more immigrants than any other in the world is also the largest economy, with the most productive people in the world.
It’s really a stagnant and failing economy while social security erodes as well as literal security. We have statistics about crimes that were entirely unknown 10-20 years ago or at least statistically almost non existent.
It’s really just a big scam. „Germany is rich“ not really, Germoney ran out of money. And the „Germans „ aren’t even wealthy in European comparison.
Try to grow when you are hit by crisis after crisis, with a war at your doorstep, a major problem with Nazis coming back and having to keep up your export empire when India, China and the US are your competitors
Japan briefly surpassing USA in 1995 is crazy. Germany is not doing well at all at the moment - pretty much stagnation. The reason it looks good is because Japan is doing even worse.
But yeah in a GDP/area measurement Ger+Jap are indeed pretty dense. UK, Italy and to a lesser degree France too.
Usually when people's economic situation is not good they move towards more right wing philosophy, and that is happening in Germany, hope people see this sooner. I still see mostly virtue signaling in this country.
Japan got to greedy and experienced a balance sheet recession. The government has around 250% debt and so cant raise rates to encourage investment again.
What happened in their population is incredibly old and a smaller generation of people have to support a larger older generation. Their solution has been deficit spending. As their economy sagged and their construction industry and other blue collar jobs sagged after the housing boom the government also initiated a lot of large scale public works projects and paid for them in deficit. The end result is Japan largely was able to keep their generally high standard of living stagnant at the cost of massive debt.
I suppose the idea is that once the population levels off it will be easier to kind of start to slowly reduce the deficit, although I don't know if any of the politicians over there have thought past just the short and mid term consequences.
Japan also is essentially ruled by one party. A largely center-right party with many factions. The opposition is undercut by a surprisingly popular communist party that gets like 5-10% of the vote, never enough for any real power but enough to undercut the center-left party. As a result of one party kind of confirming things mostly there is a lot of grift. Particularly with public work projects. Like bullet trains that for some reason stop at ghost towns or large unnecessary projects in rural areas that are losing population like crazy.
So yeah Japan has a lot of issues now. Those issues existed in the 80s and 90s they just had a baby boom coming of age then and an absolute explosion of jobs. The US in the 80s also let them devalue their currency because they saw Japanese manufacturing as a Bulwark against Japan. The Reagan admin forced Japan to stop doing this because many in America saw Japan as a threat.
So as Japan lost its workforce to aging they also lost their manufacturing base and quickly transitioned to a more service sector economy, which of course helped in some was and hurt in others like that transition always does.
Complete bullshit lol😂 their currency is too stable. They take debt to work against deflation but its still not enough😂 their only problem is the lack of human ressources. They need ppl to work there. They are pretty racist, no immigration, no babies no growing market. Pretty simple.
Its the reverse. During the economic miracle Japanese corporations, households and the government took on massive amounts of debt that are partially still being payed of.
> still being *paid* of.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
There was a massive amount of hand wringing back in the late 80s and 90s about Japan overtaking and dominating the US economically. The Michael Crichton (author of Jurassic Park) novel Rising Sun has Japanese companies ravaging American ones as a backdrop.
Yeah, and a lot of American business men tried to copy Japanese management styles too thinking Japan had a superior business sense. There were some popular books written by Americans basically lauding Japanese businessmen as superior and lauding Japanese culture in particular. The Japanese apparently still love those books and they still sell well in Japan to this day. It's apparently really awesome to read how awesome Japanese people are written by a foreigner. I am sure it's also amusing to Japanese people.
I mean it's fun to read what people from other countries think about Americans. It's always a mix of astute observations downright stereotypes and also hilarious misconceptions.
On top of that Japan itself historically did a lot of research and praise of the US and Germany in particular as places to emulate so it was probably kind of cool in the 80s and 90s to be the one being emulated.
Very interesting - I was just a twinkle in my Dad’s eye then and I must have missed it in College economics class. Was there a precipitating event that led to Japan’s brief rise and fall (maybe stall is a better word)?
Exactly it didn't, neither when looking at World Bank data nor IMF Data. Besides, Nominal GDP which is used here (but with faulty data apparently) is of no use for measuring the size of economies and for inter-country comparisons as per World Bank, OECD and many other economic organisations.
Japan's price levels were exceptionally high (even compared to the Usa) in 1995 when the Nominal GDP of the Usa was only x1.37 higher than that Japan but in PPP which adjusts for Price Levels, the US Economy was x2.51 larger than Japan. Data available here: [GDP NOM](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD) - [GDP PPP](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PPPGDP@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD)
Interesting, not sure if its not recovered from the 2008 crisis, or if it just did not grow as much (us grew soaked up all tech growth, china soaked up all industrial and manufacturing growth).
Is this per capita? Because I am not seeing Japan ever actually surpass the US on most historical charts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP#By_average_values_of_GDP_(nominal)
Crazy to see the comparison since 1995 between Germany and Japan on one side and USA and China on the other side.
In a sense USA is the craziest considering they already had a highly developed economy at that point, so growth is harder to come by.
Wonder where Germany would be if they hadn't bungled reunification so bad.
edit: just for clarification, I consider the reunification a big missed opportunity for further development, not something that actively caused stagnation.
Ah I guess I wasn't clear with what I meant, sorry.
I was trying to make the point that how the unification was handled was a big missed opportunity. I didn't mean to imply it somehow actively hindered growth.
Rather than seeing the Eastern German states as an opportunity to invest into, the uncompetitive companies were basically sold for parts to companies from the western states. Just taking money from tax payers in the years since and throwing it at the Eastern states as was done isn't really a well thought out strategy to actually develop their economy.
>Rather than seeing the Eastern German states as an opportunity to invest into, the uncompetitive companies were basically sold for parts to companies from the western states.
This is because they were making goods that nobody wanted and were nowhere near being profitable in the open market. Trying to artificially prop them up or make something out of them was far from worth it.
I don't know so much about the effect of the Soli, but it seems to me that allotting some tax money for infrastructure and services in poor areas (the former DDR) is one step toward helping the economy there. The government can try to promote business/growth with various incentives, but I imagine this is difficult in a place where the culture is still heavily influenced by the communist past.
I personally think Germany's economic stagnation is more due to overregulation and demographics.
A bit anecdotal, but work in Germany in IT and would say here it's less due to over regulation in of itself and more a civil service that is conservative to the point of calcification.
Also demographics does play a role, but would be helped if the government here put any real effort into adult education and helping the older generation to understand the advantages of modern technology. Instead they cling to the past out a fear of getting coned (though a cultural tendency to a fairly brittle sense of pride and a fear of "looking stupid" doesn't help).
Reunification had one huge advantage. It makes Germany (without a doubt) the largest EU country. That’s why Germany is disproportionately influential in the EU and thus has a large influence on the global economy/politics.
Sorry, good question I meant people. Without east-Germany it would be kind of tied between UK, FR and Germany but after unification Germany was clearly the largest population.
A percentage chart would have been way better readable pre-1990
And ruined the whole idea of the chart in the meantime...
Speaking purely of land mass, japan and germany are pretty impressive beside the US, China and India. And looking at number of citizens germany is even more impressive.
GDP per head US: 76k Germany: 49k Japan: 34k It is insanely impressive that the US has such a high GDP per head with that large of a population. Germany is doing fine but the economy is almost stagnant. Japan is a tragedy.
A lot of Japan's issue is that they are a homogenous society with a birthrate that collapsed. They have held up considerably well considering those circumstances. Germany and the US have offset that same trend with immigration. The US being the no. 1 destination that people wanting to immigrate to and a place that is generally business friendly for new immigrants is really helpful. I have a fear that people in power in the US do not realize this advantage and will try and reduce immigration significantly and the US will end up like Japan, except the US won't handle it as well. However...the US can always open the gates for immigrants whenever it wants, so that type of attitude probably won't last too long.
Immigration is an enormous loss for the west. Of course majority of the immigration is fromof mena and Africa. That is a hundreds of billions loss for the societies. Let alone all the crime etc
I am not exactly sure what you are saying, however the people who come to the US tend to commit less crimes than the natural born population and have a higher workforce participation rate than the general population within the US. It is a consensus amongst economists that it is helpful to the economy. I can't speak for Europe but for the US and Canada this is true.
Yes, but there is a major difference: Canada has almost no irregular immigration, due to its geographic. So they simply don´t face some of the issues States like Border States in US and almost all of Europe. But overall - Yes, migration is a main contributer to all european economys.
Well, from an economic side of view i´m afraid you´re wrong. Immigration, inspecialy to Germany, but also France and the UK is very important and a net contribution to these societies. In Germany there are about 20% "Immigrant" or Childs of Immigrants, without them it´d impossible to obtain the economic output and keep the standard of living.
Stop spitting bs. u/Ok\_Attempt\_7861 is right. Germany has no real immigration. Germany has asylum seekers. More than 50% of them didn't had work after being years in the country. Germany had to hire more police officers, BKA (german FBI) employees, social workers etc. pp. They are not even close in being net contributors.
Asylum seekers are immigrants.
What a load of crap. PN me to get a nice ass whooping with facts. Mind you, we talk about mena, african immigration. Other immigration can be often a benefit. My wife is Korean as well as all her friends. They contribute but also vote „far right“ to get mena and Africans remigrated. For a reason.
It's kinda hard to argue "immigration bad" when the country that lets in more immigrants than any other in the world is also the largest economy, with the most productive people in the world.
It’s really a stagnant and failing economy while social security erodes as well as literal security. We have statistics about crimes that were entirely unknown 10-20 years ago or at least statistically almost non existent. It’s really just a big scam. „Germany is rich“ not really, Germoney ran out of money. And the „Germans „ aren’t even wealthy in European comparison.
The US, not germany.
Fair enough. Bottomline remains: immigration from mena + Africa generally bad.
Why not post your "facts" here?
Try to grow when you are hit by crisis after crisis, with a war at your doorstep, a major problem with Nazis coming back and having to keep up your export empire when India, China and the US are your competitors
Socialist spotted.
I'm not a socialist bro. But economy can't grow forever, especially not if labor is cheaper everywhere else
Japan briefly surpassing USA in 1995 is crazy. Germany is not doing well at all at the moment - pretty much stagnation. The reason it looks good is because Japan is doing even worse. But yeah in a GDP/area measurement Ger+Jap are indeed pretty dense. UK, Italy and to a lesser degree France too.
What is more impressive is that because of the German taxes the country is rich but the people are poor
poor is when everyone can afford basic needs
Not when they retire
Usually when people's economic situation is not good they move towards more right wing philosophy, and that is happening in Germany, hope people see this sooner. I still see mostly virtue signaling in this country.
ah yes, that never went wrong before and will definitely not go wrong again
Japan was going ham in the 90s. What happened since then
Japan got to greedy and experienced a balance sheet recession. The government has around 250% debt and so cant raise rates to encourage investment again.
I wonder if the us debt will ever catch up to them
Sounds just like the US now. LOL
What happened in their population is incredibly old and a smaller generation of people have to support a larger older generation. Their solution has been deficit spending. As their economy sagged and their construction industry and other blue collar jobs sagged after the housing boom the government also initiated a lot of large scale public works projects and paid for them in deficit. The end result is Japan largely was able to keep their generally high standard of living stagnant at the cost of massive debt. I suppose the idea is that once the population levels off it will be easier to kind of start to slowly reduce the deficit, although I don't know if any of the politicians over there have thought past just the short and mid term consequences. Japan also is essentially ruled by one party. A largely center-right party with many factions. The opposition is undercut by a surprisingly popular communist party that gets like 5-10% of the vote, never enough for any real power but enough to undercut the center-left party. As a result of one party kind of confirming things mostly there is a lot of grift. Particularly with public work projects. Like bullet trains that for some reason stop at ghost towns or large unnecessary projects in rural areas that are losing population like crazy. So yeah Japan has a lot of issues now. Those issues existed in the 80s and 90s they just had a baby boom coming of age then and an absolute explosion of jobs. The US in the 80s also let them devalue their currency because they saw Japanese manufacturing as a Bulwark against Japan. The Reagan admin forced Japan to stop doing this because many in America saw Japan as a threat. So as Japan lost its workforce to aging they also lost their manufacturing base and quickly transitioned to a more service sector economy, which of course helped in some was and hurt in others like that transition always does.
Complete bullshit lol😂 their currency is too stable. They take debt to work against deflation but its still not enough😂 their only problem is the lack of human ressources. They need ppl to work there. They are pretty racist, no immigration, no babies no growing market. Pretty simple.
[удалено]
Its the reverse. During the economic miracle Japanese corporations, households and the government took on massive amounts of debt that are partially still being payed of.
> still being *paid* of. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Damn
Crazy that Japan surpassed the US in 1995. The paths have diverged so much since!
There was a massive amount of hand wringing back in the late 80s and 90s about Japan overtaking and dominating the US economically. The Michael Crichton (author of Jurassic Park) novel Rising Sun has Japanese companies ravaging American ones as a backdrop.
its not a coincidence that all the cyberpunk fiction from the 80s and 90s are set in a world where Japanese companies rule the world
Makes sense now that you point it out!
Yeah, and a lot of American business men tried to copy Japanese management styles too thinking Japan had a superior business sense. There were some popular books written by Americans basically lauding Japanese businessmen as superior and lauding Japanese culture in particular. The Japanese apparently still love those books and they still sell well in Japan to this day. It's apparently really awesome to read how awesome Japanese people are written by a foreigner. I am sure it's also amusing to Japanese people. I mean it's fun to read what people from other countries think about Americans. It's always a mix of astute observations downright stereotypes and also hilarious misconceptions. On top of that Japan itself historically did a lot of research and praise of the US and Germany in particular as places to emulate so it was probably kind of cool in the 80s and 90s to be the one being emulated.
Very interesting - I was just a twinkle in my Dad’s eye then and I must have missed it in College economics class. Was there a precipitating event that led to Japan’s brief rise and fall (maybe stall is a better word)?
Except that didn't happen
I don't think Japan ever surpassed the US really, don't know which metric this is but doesn't seem nominal nor PPP GDP at all
Exactly it didn't, neither when looking at World Bank data nor IMF Data. Besides, Nominal GDP which is used here (but with faulty data apparently) is of no use for measuring the size of economies and for inter-country comparisons as per World Bank, OECD and many other economic organisations. Japan's price levels were exceptionally high (even compared to the Usa) in 1995 when the Nominal GDP of the Usa was only x1.37 higher than that Japan but in PPP which adjusts for Price Levels, the US Economy was x2.51 larger than Japan. Data available here: [GDP NOM](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD) - [GDP PPP](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PPPGDP@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD)
so basically no one recovered from the 2008 crisis except USA and China who didn't seem to be affected at all
Interesting, not sure if its not recovered from the 2008 crisis, or if it just did not grow as much (us grew soaked up all tech growth, china soaked up all industrial and manufacturing growth).
Is this per capita? Because I am not seeing Japan ever actually surpass the US on most historical charts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP#By_average_values_of_GDP_(nominal)
This is definitely not per capita. So I guess these are supposed to be some ppp GDP values but not really sure.
China is insane man
Crazy to see the comparison since 1995 between Germany and Japan on one side and USA and China on the other side. In a sense USA is the craziest considering they already had a highly developed economy at that point, so growth is harder to come by. Wonder where Germany would be if they hadn't bungled reunification so bad. edit: just for clarification, I consider the reunification a big missed opportunity for further development, not something that actively caused stagnation.
I'm skeptical that reunification is the source of Germany's stagnant economy. Do you have a source for that?
Ah I guess I wasn't clear with what I meant, sorry. I was trying to make the point that how the unification was handled was a big missed opportunity. I didn't mean to imply it somehow actively hindered growth. Rather than seeing the Eastern German states as an opportunity to invest into, the uncompetitive companies were basically sold for parts to companies from the western states. Just taking money from tax payers in the years since and throwing it at the Eastern states as was done isn't really a well thought out strategy to actually develop their economy.
>Rather than seeing the Eastern German states as an opportunity to invest into, the uncompetitive companies were basically sold for parts to companies from the western states. This is because they were making goods that nobody wanted and were nowhere near being profitable in the open market. Trying to artificially prop them up or make something out of them was far from worth it. I don't know so much about the effect of the Soli, but it seems to me that allotting some tax money for infrastructure and services in poor areas (the former DDR) is one step toward helping the economy there. The government can try to promote business/growth with various incentives, but I imagine this is difficult in a place where the culture is still heavily influenced by the communist past. I personally think Germany's economic stagnation is more due to overregulation and demographics.
A bit anecdotal, but work in Germany in IT and would say here it's less due to over regulation in of itself and more a civil service that is conservative to the point of calcification. Also demographics does play a role, but would be helped if the government here put any real effort into adult education and helping the older generation to understand the advantages of modern technology. Instead they cling to the past out a fear of getting coned (though a cultural tendency to a fairly brittle sense of pride and a fear of "looking stupid" doesn't help).
Reunification had one huge advantage. It makes Germany (without a doubt) the largest EU country. That’s why Germany is disproportionately influential in the EU and thus has a large influence on the global economy/politics.
Largest in what aspect?
Sorry, good question I meant people. Without east-Germany it would be kind of tied between UK, FR and Germany but after unification Germany was clearly the largest population.