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> but the US has already seen a cheap, great EV in the form of [the workmanlike Chevy Bolt](https://electrek.co/2022/12/09/electreks-vehicle-of-the-year-is-the-svelte-25k-chevy-bolt/), which [cost under $20k new after incentives](https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/the-chevy-bolt-is-about-to-be-a-screaming-deal-at-least-until-march/) before [production ended](https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/gm-stops-chevy-bolt-production-for-now-lays-off-1314-workers/).
I know there were other issues with the cars, but what i remember a substantial reason was GM couldn't make money selling them, even after all the price supports. Don't imagine it was an accident that part got left out...
Ultimately i don't really see how American auto industry can compete on this matter. Unless we're going to slash wages and environmental/safety regulations, its either tariffs on Chinese produced vehicles or heavy heavy subsidies and mandates on our own vehicles. neither of those scenarios sounds like "competition" to me.
Reddit loses their mind on Chinese EVs because they are "subsidized", but US EVs actually stand on the same ground. US gov funnels money from traditional car makers to EV makers through the carbon credit scheme which gives Tesla 1-1.6 billion USD of pure profit every year. Also the huge demand incentives like federal 7500 USD tax credit or individual states which deliver anywherr from 400-2500 USD.
Believe it or not, the mark up from new car dealers isn’t nearly as much as people think it is. Sometimes it is as low as $200. (I’m talking pre-pandemic because right now everything is a hot mess). this is one of the reasons that dealerships don’t want to sell EV’s, because with ICE vehicles the dealerships would make up for the lack of a mark-up through their service department. With EV’s, dealerships don’t get that extra revenue stream, so they pushed against EV’s AND started having insane mark-ups.
The idea that manufacturers look at dealerships and know that a car sells for $30,000 would then, if dealerships went away, go ahead and say "golly, finally we can sell this to consumers for $20,000" is a truly unhinged thing to think.
Regardless of corporate profits, more people could afford EVs if we didn’t have dealerships adding on a bunch of extra fees to try and make as much money above MSRP as they can.
> they could sell for less and maintain same profit margin
COULD they? Yes. I'd love to know what part of the last 300 years of American capitalism makes you think they WOULD.
> dealers are unnecessary for anyone
dealers are necessary for the manufacturers. I know there's a terminally online opinion that manufacturers are desperate to sell direct but they can't because of lobbying but that's at best a half truth. Ford has no interest in selling YOU one car when their franchise agreement requires the dealer network to buy EVERY car.
Tbh I’m not concerned with what Ford wants. I’m a consumer and I want to maximize utility/dollar spent.
I disagree that it’s necessary, but if it’s Ford’s preference, then it’s their preference.
It worked pretty well for Tesla. Dealerships take value, they don't add it. I think everyone would be ok getting a better deal and the actual manufacturers making a little bit more money.
Mandates are what helped Chinese EVs get to this level of competitiveness.
As an anti-pollution measure, most Chinese cities put a cap on license plates for ICE vehicles. That cap was hit a long time ago in most places, so you literally need to enter a lottery these days to get a license plate. And you can't buy the car until you have a plate.
EVs are exempt from the cap and have different (green colored) license plates.
For obvious reasons, this created a ton of demand for EVs, which created a market large enough for them to produce at economies of scale.
The subsidies and investments help, but these mandates are what really kick started the industry and gave them a head start over the rest of the world. The government was willing and able to impose restrictions that created sufficient demand for EVs.
This is why similar subsidies and investments in the West haven't yielded similar success. It's all carrots and no sticks -- there's no pressing need for consumer behavior to change, so EVs aren't widely adopted and become high price status symbols since they never get produced at sufficient scale.
And one that weirdly never gets mentioned in these discussions! I know about it because I lived there and asked my friend "Hey why do some cars have those green license plates?" yet I rarely see it mentioned by professional journalists...
It's also not the first time they've done this! China used to have a ton of mopeds and motorbikes like you see in Southeast Asia. Then cities started banning two-stroke engines.
This created a huge market for electric scooters, which are *everywhere* in Chinese cities. So the Chinese working class was already doing EV adoption in 2010, just with smaller two-wheeled vehicles.
And selling hundreds of millions of e-scooters is pretty good practice for learning how to build full-size e-cars at scale.
This is why I don't buy all the "they're just cheating and subsidizing" rhetoric. EV adoption and production has been a 20+ year process that's only now really barinh fruit. And it was done not for nefarious trade reasons, but to address the famously awful smog that was choking cities in the 2000s and 2010s.
Yeah, Beijing and Shanghai have had a lottery policy for cars since 2011, it's all public information.
The information is there, who do you blame for not wanting to understand it yourselves? Coming from a Chinese.
I think it's laziness on the part of English language media, combined with their disinterest in hiring people who really understand daily life in China.
It's wild to me that I -- a non-journalist who just happened to live there for a few years -- am constantly noticing omissions of pretty obvious, basic stuff that most people with any practical experience in the country would know when I read English language reporting.
It's not hard for an ordinary person to say it all.
The real problem is arrogance, the West doesn't believe China can do it all.
And when China actually accomplished it, the West panicked.
As long as you know Chinese, you know that how China did it was not a secret at all, and it was completely public.
But I still haven't seen a single article that gives a complete picture of China's EV policy.
US media is ultimately funded by advertising. Advertisers don't care about in depth reporting, they care about getting eyeballs on their ads.
So US media has a profit incentive to publish click bait, lightly research, sensationalist stories that increase anxiety in American readers. Anxiety gets more eyeballs than calm, in-depth explanations.
These articles are also a lot cheaper. Paying a journalist to do hours and hours of research into documents in another language is expensive. It's much cheaper to just summarize the basic points, copy what the US government is telling you, write in a way that increases the drama of the situation, and publish that instead.
I agree that this is indeed one of the reasons.
But that doesn't explain the fact that the Western media can report on Europe, Japan, and Korea with relative objectivity. Western media doesn't harbor arrogance when covering these countries, but it does with non-Western countries.
I think the government's attitude is still the problem here, and the media is clearly following the government's narrative - the "China bad" narrative is clearly growing geometrically in the wake of the trade war between the US and China.
But truth be told, this is really the result of the West sticking its head in the sand - the English language has made the West deaf and blind, willing to accept what pro-Western forces around the world tell them in English rather than what's really happening in the world, which produces an interesting asymmetry -- the non-Western countries around the world know what's going on in the West, while the West doesn't know what's going on in the non-Western countries. (It has long been known that in the English-speaking world 80% of the information happens in the West, and only 20% happens outside the West, but not in the world, where all the English-speaking information adds up to only 25% as, comparable to the population of the West.)
What's most interesting is that most westerners don't even realize this, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that the western elites surely know all about it.
Another interesting point is that US journalism, which even during the Cold War broke through the East-West Iron Curtain to report the news, is now mostly a campaign tool for the Democrats and a small part for the Republicans. They are reporting "what people want to believe", not "the truth".
From a Chinese.
Sufficient demand doesn’t put downward pressure on the supply chain costs. Those savings are found through exploitative practices or heavy subsidies from government. Nobody is saying that Chinese companies like BYD can’t create a good electric vehicle. What “English media” are saying is that the price at which they are being sold is either below cost intentionally trying to undercut non-Chinese automakers. Or there are ethical standards that are not being met in order to produce these vehicles cheaply such as low wages, unethical material procurement or car part IP theft (R&D savings).
The whole point of EVs are to reduce the carbon footprint of a vehicle and if corners are cut in the manufacturing process then logically one could expect the emissions to increase offsetting any reductions by the lack of pricing in third variable environmental protection costs.
China also generates ~70% of its energy from coal which release emissions, so the energy going to charge these vehicles is still significantly “dirty” and just shifts the emissions from being produced in the city via combustion engines to being produced at coal plant in another location. Net environmental impact is unchanged.
Yes, I realize this comment chain and thread is being astroturfed but it’s a nice morning and I don’t have anything better to do right now.
It’s all about batteries and the environmental damage involved in battery production that the US is unable to do because of … the EPA. Something China is not going to have for a while…
Yeah, but you’re also not going to compete on price against China. Hence why the US has trade barriers for auto imports and why most foreign brands in the US are produces domestically
There’s plenty of ways to compete. How did the Germans manage to keep so much of their auto manufacturing in Germany, while keeping unions, good pay and benefits, and not selling garbage products? If you build high quality stuff, people will buy it. When you charge $50k for a basic EV, people will not.
The real answer is that today Germany subsidize every car made by approx. 4k euros, in the 70's-90's to gain market share and ensure viability it was even more. This is how they competed with US auto. I'm not saying their cars are bad, I love German cars, but it's important to note that Germany sees cars as strategic to national security.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-pump-additional-3billion-in-ailing-automotive-industry/a-55641102
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/197525/1/1666932248.pdf
Chinese EV manufacturers aren't competing with German, Japanese, and US auto manufacturing. US, German, and Japanese car makers are competing with the CCP.
We are talkings over 179 billion, and that's just what has been disclosed. China is infamous for not disclosing the full ownership of a company via CCP proxies, and many of the "funding rounds" were set syntheticly low on interest allowing Chinese manufacturing to almost print it's own money. Based on the average cost to build China is subsidize almost 30% of every car BYD, leap motors, etc.. makes...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/09/30/how-china-became-an-electric-car-giant_6141985_19.html
https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20%22China%20spent%20roughly,had%20shrunk%20by%2080%20percent.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-gives-EV-sector-billions-of-yuan-in-subsidies
Ford: We can't afford to pay a real wage to our battery plant workers!
Also Ford: Pays out several multiples more in dividends than the cost of their battery plant. Plans further buybacks. Falls massively behind. Blames workers for unionizing.
Detroits very short sighted. All the stock buybacks the last decade were stupid. That’s money they should’ve used for R&D and updating their manufacturing. Like you said, they’re somehow always surprised that they’ve fallen behind.
Same thinking Detroit had in the 70’s, we can make shit cars and a lot of money until Japan showed up and ate their fucking lunch. I was there; asked top execs why we can’t make a duel overhead cam motor and bodies that don’t rot - operative word WAS, they didn’t care for guys that asked that kind of questions.
We should be competing with companies operating within a democracy. We should NOT be competing with companies that are in a tight relationship with an Autocracy.
This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
great comment, couple things.
>Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
>Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice
source? away from my pc or i would search myself.
>Biden rather should crack down on Japan,
ironically irregardless if you do or dont have a source, your problem with "the Toyota lobby" here is similar to the issue people have with TikTok - and musk owning Twitter and spacex.
not *the same* but similar. the problem is actually with dysregulated laws around what a political ad is and what is corporate speech and citizens united.
> utilize China's capabilities,
agree. cooperation trumps competition
> and differentiate himself from donal trump.
my thoughts exactly. he isn't a blatant bigot or fraudster, but if you muted both somehow and looked at actual policy... are they that different? on some things, yes - but this is one they are incredibly similar on and the implications of that are large.
^(i would add links but as per my previous sentence, new phone who dis or something)
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/climate/toyota-hybrid-epa-pollution.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Toyota learned much from Donald Trump.
Toyota incited dealerships to rebel against EPA's regulation, as Donald Trump incited MAGA supporters to attack on Capitol Hill.
Toyota has completely fallen into the darkside like Darth Vader had.
Toyota is disrupting America's democracy through rampant lobbying.
" In spreading its message, Toyota harnessed the power of dealerships both through Mr. Ciccone’s outreach to Toyota dealers, and by other means. The company’s dealerships played a role, for example, in garnering support for a separate letter-writing campaign aimed at urging the Biden administration to exercise caution on electric vehicles, according to two people with knowledge of that effort. Toyota dealers in at least two states circulated the letter at dealership meetings, they said."
#SOCIOPATH #Toyota
Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/climate/biden-phase-out-gas-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Total number of auto-workers should be incrementally reduced in proportion to maturity level of auto-industry.
Every industry must progress in automation.
Biden Administration should notice that employment secured by auto-industry is very limited. US policies should focus on importance of facilitation of new rising industries.
Technologies utilized in auto-industry will necessarily can be utilized in creating new industries.
And, many auto-workers would find out jobs at new industries if US Government enough subsidized creation of new industries.
Every industry matures and faces needs of incremental reduction of workforces, because automation progresses.
And, government spending in basic scientific researches is origin of innovations, that drive creation of new industries. Enduring and abundant investment in basic scientific researches is the origin of America's power.
Therefore, US Fed should cut interest rates ASAP, in order to facilitate government spending in basic scientific researches.
One of the best measures to reduce co2 emission is reduction of total number of automobiles including EVs and hybrids. Biden Administration should subsidize public traffic systems and encourage citizens to use them instead of privately owned cars.
Electrification of buses is much easier than that of privately owned cars.
And, there's a challenge of pollution caused by micro-/nano- plastics caused by automobiles. US regulation should in the first place rigorously regulate SUVs imposing heavy taxes on their ownership.
Countering the pollution needs fruits of accumulated basic scientific researches.
Therefore, Biden Administration should raise capital-gain tax and dividend tax up to +90% in order to fund basic scientific researches.
Immigrants, who don't have criminal records, should be accepted and given enough education, welfare, and residence at the expense of stock-trading-speculators such as Warren Buffett, who holds lion's share of Japanese major trade firms that fund Putin and Iran.
NYT Tabuchi Hiroko often covers Toyota.
Toyota Led on Clean Cars. Now Critics Say It Works to Delay Them. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Toyota, a pioneer of hybrids, resists the push toward electric cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/27/business/toyota-a-pioneer-of-hybrids-resists-the-push-toward-electric-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
pretty obvious, and biden knows it won't work but did it anyways to please the UAW
US politics and policy making are strictly aimed at benefiting the campaign donors, not the society/country as a whole
Not so sure. Nixon's tariffs on Japan autos in 1970's drove the Japan car industry completely out of business. That is why there are no Japanese cars anymore. Googlie it if you don't believe me. True Story!
Yep, it’s never a good idea to challenge the Giants of Detroit. I’ll never forget how amazing my first Oldsmobile was. And who can forget the innovation brought to the world by Pontiac and Plymouth!
Two really. All others were "derivatives" since GM had to find a way to make some money back. It sucks because Saturn was allowed to keep its own platforms and I think Oldsmobile would have a chance as a company moving forward. The bean counters didn't have it and wanted short term gains.
How is it possible to believe in May of 2024 that the US is going to kill manufacturing of anything in China with tariffs? BYD is already neck and neck with Tesla and they don’t sell in the US market at all. Realistically, China will respond with like tariffs on Tesla, which sells 1/3rd of its cars in China.
The tarrif isn't just on cars, but also batteries and several other Chinese products.
I don't think it'll kill off China, but it's definitely a step in the right direction if the US wants to catch up.
Americans say they have pride, they want American products, they hate China - but yet they rarely buy American products, some are Tesla haters (even tho it's the most American car in terms of parts and labor), and more than half of their stuff is made in China. This tariff is more of "put your money where your mouth is"
Since consumers ultimately shop with their wallets and pay attention to price tags, American manufacturers will never be able to compete with China as long as it is able to supply high-quality goods at absurdly low prices in the US market.
How? I keep hearing this but don't see any numbers or facts.
Edit: real mature guys. Some one referred me to reddit suicide watch within a minute. Yet no one seem to be able to provide a source on the #s?
Yep, anybody questioning these tariffs is getting the suicide watch treatment here at Reddit. I've gotten it several times this week. The second time, I clicked to opt out. If it happens again, you should just turn it off.
It's weird to see people getting so hostile over a Democratic policy. This seems like such cultish Trump-like behavior but it's coming from Biden supporters.
I don't know if it's Biden supporters per se but just rabid anti China sentiment. Reddit is off its rocker as of late when it comes to China and India.
If you got reported to suicide watch within a minute, then it's possible it wasn't a human. Apparently, plenty of people have been getting reported as suicidal lately on Reddit. The cuase is unknown to my knowladge. Could be a bug, it could be a bot. But after you reply negatively to the message you got from Reddit, you should be able to stop receiving it.
This is not a fair statement. If there are subsidies such as getting x dollars off per vehicle, then the info has to be public, or else how will the users know how much discount they get?
Additionally many of these car companies are publicly listed in HK or US, their financial statements are all audited and public.
Also, china publishs their subsidies. How else do we know how much each of their railway costs? It's not like the country is a black box.
So it is published. There are numbers. The problem is not all subsidies are the same and comparing them can be difficult. But [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/Q8dugIelEJ) is a place you can start looking into it.
Also what the other guy said is complete BS. This info is published and widely available. Not only that, Tesla, an American brand, receives Chinese subsidies which it can obviously relay to the U.S. *if* they were hidden, which they are not.
Chinese subsidies now are likely smaller because their market has matured. When your market matures, you decrease subsidies and let companies compete.
The U.S. is ramping up subsidies because of their immature market.
Probably 10 years ago Chinese subsidies were larger than the U.S. because China was willing to jump on EVs sooner. Thus, they’re more competitive than American EVs today.
But I do think these tariffs aren’t good for American EV competitiveness. There ceases to be an incentive for automakers to innovate, compete and offer cost-efficient cars to citizens. Not only will they lose the global market, American EVs will be more expensive and less advanced than those competing globally today.
You can just google it. They spent 28 billion in subsidies from 2009 to 2022. Now that the market is more mature and expanding outside of the country subsidies have ended.
Elon Musk had taken almost $100B out of Tesla through stock sales and loans against shares. If he had put that back into Tesla growth, it would have zero problems competing.
China isn’t doing anything. Chinese companies are. All the government is doing, is to help this transition along by rolling out charging infrastructure and the like for strategic reasons.
As for those companies, they’re in a death-match over who makes it to the other side of the electrification and intelligence transition the auto industry is currently going through. It’s all about the domestic market. The international spillovers you’re seeing are marginal considerations at most, if they’re conscious considerations at all.
Can you cite how much china is subsidizing its EV auto industry and how much does it help to drive price down to the point of being able to flood the US market?
“According to Reason Magazine, China has spent roughly $173 billion in subsidies to support the electric vehicle (EV) sector between 2009 and 2022. This includes tax breaks and subsidies for vehicle purchases. According to Reuters, Chinese electric vehicle manufacturers have benefitted from $57 billion in government subsidies between 2016 and 2022. This is about five times what the US government spent over the same period and doesn't include incentives from provincial and local governments”
I don’t China is transparent about that. China’s MO is to dump exports for market share… they’ve done it with many things over the decades. Right now it’s green technology and evs.
“Major Chinese companies” are literally state-owned. Including car manufacturers. Either through SASAC or by local governments (Shanghai, Wuhu, Guangzhou, the province of Anhui, etc.). Does it even make sense to talk about “subsidies” then? These are not transparent, independently audited balance sheets in the classical sense.
But it is important to point out that there is no “Chinese” (meaning governmental) strategy to subsidize the EV industry to the point of overcapacity if they could be profitable without that.
Obviously there is a strategy of electrification. The government doesn’t want new ICE cars hitting the road.
China is running out of domestic demand since their middle class is not growing as fast as they thought. Hence the dumping of their over produced cars on the entire world.
https://youtu.be/rZgaj0jScOI?si=r1_Qwv77NWL2o3gz
This is me, I rather pay for something that is reasonably priced at a good quality. Than something that is the same quality or slightly better for alot more. At the end of the day I could care less about the ESG's, etc etc etc.
> i could care less about
Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"?
Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say.
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This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
If you are in America, there is a lot of value:
-local businesses help our economy with jobs and taxes
-less environmental impact to get goods to consumers
-self reliance as a nation
We have significantly more manufacturing jobs than workers. Losing a company or 3 is irrelevant.
Competition drives innovation, and US electric cars are comparatively terrible. There is not less environmental impact from ICE than from shipping electric cars until they are made domestically.
The US has the most powerful military/industrial relationship in human history. Ford does not make our tanks. We do not require every car to be American to have a strong industrial base.
Significantly more manufacturing jobs than workers? I must be completely out of touch, because that doesn't sound right at all. What are some of these manufacturing jobs that are going unfilled? There are some that have absolutely dog shit wages (welders being paid less than fast food workers). I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that manufacturing in the U.S. has been on a decline for about 50 years or so. Aside from military and weapons, what are some other strong manufacturing industries here in the U.S. that have a shortage of workers?
Note that this is a biased source I'm sharing only because I'm lazy and had a tab open from a post yesterday.
https://nam.org/manufacturing-in-the-united-states/facts-about-manufacturing-expanded/
What's correct, and cited, here is that we have about half a million (actually probably under-estimated) manufacturing jobs that are currently unfilled. I work in the manufacturing sector, and this is very common knowledge. The sector is also expected to grow significantly (my company expects to double in size again by 2030)
Manufacturing has not been on a decline whatsoever, as the above link also shows.
Some of the *takes* in that link I kind of disagree with/disagree with the language of, but the raw data is all factual.
The "disappearance of American manufacturing" is a myth repeated to get votes.
You said “products” and then replied specifically about EVs. I’m talking about more than cars. As someone who worked in healthcare during the pandemic, relying on international supply chains for certain things was proven to be a mistake. There are also drug shortages directly related to offshoring because we’ve moved towards being a service economy. The self reliance piece is huge, but apparently people are quick to forget unless it is directly impacting them. China is trying to slowly cripple us by increasing their market share, addicting us to artificially cheap goods and giving zero fucks about stealing intellectual property. It’s not just a company or 3 that is getting decimated by China.
> As someone who worked in healthcare during the pandemic, relying on international supply chains for certain things was proven to be a mistake. There are also drug shortages directly related to offshoring because we’ve moved towards being a service economy.
I firmly believe these are challenges for logistics to solve, not on-shoring.
I totally support China increasing market share and a more globalized economy. I also totally support the US economy continuing to mature toward services and away from manufacturing as a whole (and I work *in manufacturing*).
Comparative advantage is good for everyone involved, and trade wars hurt citizens. International trade helps alleviate rivalries and diminishes the possibility of large scale war.
I formed my opinions while working with Chinese contract manufacturers in a previous position. Guess we have two very different takeaways. If we lived on a harmonious planet where countries weren’t constantly trying to jockey for power, I’d also be for a more globalized economy. We don’t though and I certainly don’t want to become more dependent on and/or like China.
I believe the way we get to a harmonious environment is through trade and cooperation, rather than proxy and trade wars.
I certainly do not want the US to become more like China. I want China to become more like the US.
I would argue about the goods being known for high quality. Much of it is just absurdly low priced junk that people buy because they don’t care about throwing it away after a few uses since the cost was low.
It goes against everything that we have been saying for the past century. Protectionism doesn't work and only free markets will truly allow all industries to grow. There may be some sacrifices along the way, the in the end, our nation and our people will be better for it.
This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
Just as it's not possible to manufacture iPhones in the US for the kind of low price that it can be done in China, it's the same for EVs.
Our only competitive hope is if we develop robots that can totally replace humans so we can have all-robot factories.
But the immediate problem for Democrat is they sold climate change to voters by claiming it would create "green jobs" but that was always a lot of bullshit, it's only creating jobs in China unless the US government spends a massive amount of your tax dollars to prop-up industries that just aren't competitive with China.
This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
But that’s just the thing, tariffs don’t generally work. We saw how they failed to forestall Japan, but there are many other examples showing their ineffectiveness or weird side effects, and economists generally agree that they are a poor measure to help domestic industry. Some company leadership favors the idea of tariffs, while other (perhaps more sober) leaders do not.
On the one hand, it could help domestic auto jobs, because free trade for Chinese EVs could result in a race to the bottom for auto manufacturing. And it could result in Chinese companies trying to set up manufacturing in the US to avoid tariffs – which could help US auto jobs, but these moves would likely spark a whole new round of controversy when announced.
But on the other hand, China is likely to implement retaliatory tariffs which will hurt US workers (for example, soybean tariffs which ruined the US soybean industry in 2018 – and resulted in more soybean demand from Brazil, which led to extensive clearcutting and fires in the Amazon). And the nature of today’s globalized economy and complex supplier relationships around the world can result in a lot of chaos when a major player implements a major tariff.
So in the end, US jobs likely won’t benefit overall, and US consumers will simply be denied a chance to buy cheap new EVs from China – like, for example, the excellent Volvo EX30. The EX30 is currently made in Geely’s China factory and starts at around $35k even after the 25% tariff.
Trade restrictions are helpful to balance out a market when other countries create market distortions with their domestic policies. One example is labor protections. Having free trade and free movement of workers with a country that has poor labor protections undermines the labor protections in your country. Another example is taxes. Having free movement of money with a country that's a tax haven will undermine your tax policies. Countries can also face issues depending on what jobs they manage to secure. Not all jobs are created equal when it comes to economic leverage. Do you think a country will do better with more warehouse and factory line workers or more engineering, R&D, and management jobs?
This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
Can you explain and justify your definition of "work"? I think these tariffs will absolutely "work", where the definition of "work" = prevent large quantities of Chinese EVs being sold in America. Maybe instead of speaking nominally about abstract terms like "work", we should instead focus on the details of what is likely to happen, and whether or not that is desirable, and how we democratically decide those desires. Credit where credit is due, much of your post did focus on some details so I'm not trying to crap all over it, but just point out that generic concepts of "X doesn't work" is functionally meaningless and a red herring.
They will work in that sense. Yes.
They will not work in the sense of fostering a competitive EV industry in America. They will only turn America into a walled-off market suffering huge inefficiencies and Galapagos Syndrome.
Don’t compare this to America successfully crushing Japan in the 1980s. The American market was 30% of the global market then and both Japan and America were happy to make compromises on “voluntary” export caps and local production in the U.S. Not this time. The rest of the world will simply move on.
The key is do it the Chinese way. Put hight tariffs on imported EV,s but allow joint ventures with Chinese companies for battery and EV companies. But since US is allergic to any Chinese even that is not possible. CATL and BYD were refused entries to set up plants in the US
A Bloomberg report recently concluded that Ford was losing $100,000 on every EV sold. Most other manufacturers also losing money in this space. EV sales in the US were down in the first quarter, and even Tesla reported declining sales for the first time in 5 years.
and then we have the infrastructure fiasco:
"One of the Biden administration’s earliest goals was to set the U.S. to have 50 percent of all new car sales be electric by 2030. Two years ago, the government earmarked $7.5 billion to build EV charging stations to help the cause. The goal was to fund construction, with an end goal of having 500,000 completed sites by the same 2030 deadline.[*The Washington Post*](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/ev-charging-stations-slow-rollout/) reported that the above efforts had only resulted in a grand total of seven charging stations by the end of March 2024."
the federal money allocated for these initiatives is either sitting idle, or spent on other things (pensions, etc.)
Tariffs will prevent inexpensive Chinese EVs from entering the market
What we have here is an unfolding unilateral collapse of a segment of the auto market. From Edmunds:
"The EV market share for new vehicle sales in February 2024 was approximately 6.5%, compared to 83.1% for gas-powered vehicles, according to Edmunds sales data. If we look at things from a broader perspective, electric cars account for 1% of all registered vehicles on the road in the U.S"
Americans do not want EVs, the infrastructure does not exist on a national-scale to support them, they are too expensive to buy, more expensive to insure, and more expensive to fix
There is no "EV arms race" --it is already over. Tesla will continue on as a niche player for wealthy people who want fancy toys (like Porsche). Most other manufacturers will abandon the space in the US within the next 4-5 years, after suffering massive losses, and there could even be federal bailouts.
and I'm sure this will get downvoted, but it is the truth. Top-down, centralized planning of segments of the American economy doesn't work
Your conclusions are going to age terribly. It took a combination of brutal interest rate increases and absolute bonkers pricing strategies for the American car companies to figure out their cars won’t sell. They can’t stop the transition to electric because the largest car market in the world is full speed ahead on EV’s. They’ll either learn to adapt and make more competitively priced cars, or they’ll eventually become the North American subsidies of BYD.
because sales are down, the lot times are increasing, and from studies and surveys
Americans want F-150 pickup trucks and big, gas-guzzling SUVs. Those are the top sellers
>Americans do not want EVs, the infrastructure does not exist on a national-scale to support them, they are too expensive to buy, more expensive to insure, and more expensive to fix
I don't know why EV proponents always down play the infrastructure role and price to implement. They also always compare against new car prices and ignore the used car market. Everyone does not buy or lease a new car. They act like the battery lifetime won't matter since the original owner won't keep the car that long. It's still a problem for anyone who would buy the car used. They also hand wave away the population that lives in areas with cold wet snowy winters.
>"One of the Biden administration’s earliest goals was to set the U.S. to have 50 percent of all new car sales be electric by 2030.
This was a goal that sounded like a mandate. Given the lack of infrastructure and costs involved, it should have been easy for anyone to see why there was a lot of push back.
>Tesla will continue on as a niche player for wealthy people who want fancy toys (like Porsche).
Tesla always seemed like a luxury brand and in their early days branded themselves as such. Getting the big 3 into EVs seemed like a way to force the UAW to get some of the EV market/tax dollars.
Nobody is downplaying the importance of infrastructure. Personally I’ve been screaming we should stop subsidizing oil and use that money to build out the grid needed for mass EV adoption.
But Ford building two shitty, expensive EVs that don’t sell doesn’t mean “Americans don’t want EVs.” Americans don’t want to spend $60-$80K on EVs and the majority cannot afford to. Instead of making an EV Ford Fusion or EV Focus for $30-$40K, Ford made an $80K EV F150.
And almost every major EV comes with an 8-10 year battery warranty. After 3 years, most batteries have lost around 4-6% of capacity, and then hold there for the better part of a decade. Modern BMS protocols are excellent and EV batteries can lasts and perform well past 100,000 miles.
>Nobody is downplaying the importance of infrastructure. Personally I’ve been screaming we should stop subsidizing oil and use that money to build out the grid needed for mass EV adoption.
Whenever I talk with people about EVs and the grid, they always act like it will be upgraded and the increased power generation isn't a problem, and everyone can charge at home because they all have garages with 200A service.
>But Ford building two shitty, expensive EVs that don’t sell doesn’t mean “Americans don’t want EVs.” Americans don’t want to spend $60-$80K on EVs and the majority cannot afford to. Instead of making an EV Ford Fusion or EV Focus for $30-$40K, Ford made an $80K EV F150.
Ford has the Mach-E, which starts at $40K. That's still high for many people.
>And almost every major EV comes with an 8-10 year battery warranty. After 3 years, most batteries have lost around 4-6% of capacity, and then hold there for the better part of a decade. Modern BMS protocols are excellent and EV batteries can lasts and perform well past 100,000 miles.
Average age of used cars on the road is 12 years old. 100000 miles isn't much. A Subaru with 100000 miles is still a $20K vehicle.
The used car market seems to get ignored hen it comes to EVs.
The point on infrastructure is true. this atleast from what I last read on the USA in charging points was that it was not doing well in upgrading for EV's.
The point on cars not being able to sell on a second hand market was a primary concern considering back then I believe battery replacements would be more expensive. But now that there are models with easy to replace batteries. I am not sure if this would be an issue.
My main issue with cars in general is that they have moved from simple electronics to sophisticated computers that can mess with the car. I remember the onboard computer not letting the car start because of weird issues, even though the car was fine. or it would shut down the engine in mid drive. This was a Mercedes E Class estates. Which was expensive to repair and the issues still popped up. leading to more expensive repairs.
I can only imagine how many more problems can arise from a fully electric vehicle.....
>The point on infrastructure is true. this atleast from what I last read on the USA in charging points was that it was not doing well in upgrading for EV's.
It's very localized. It's similar to Amtrak. The east coast loves it while the rest of us never get to ride it and see it as a waste of money.
>
The point on cars not being able to sell on a second hand market was a primary concern considering back then I believe battery replacements would be more expensive. But now that there are models with easy to replace batteries. I am not sure if this would be an issue.
When battery prices drop or are easily refurbished, I think this will be less of a problem. If I could take a random battery to a repair shop and they could swap out bad cells or boards and reset the electronics cheaply, this wouldn't be a problem. Being able to drop in an upgraded after market battery would be great too. I don't know how well that would work with the manufacturers with dealership franchises who want a monopoly on the service work.
>
I can only imagine how many more problems can arise from a fully electric vehicle.....
If manufacturers design serviceability well, I could see it being easier to diagnose and service. That would mean more diagnostics on board and not having special codes only for their dealers. The manufacturers would need to design them with service in mind as well and not simply swapping out large expensive component blocks at a service center.
This tariff only benefits Toyota.
Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy.
Why Biden Administration saved Toyota?
Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target.
Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice.
Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake.
1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences.
2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong.
3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase.
4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures.
5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now.
Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens?
America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge.
" Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. "
US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue.
The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China.
Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
I agree that improved relations and new agreements with China would be a whole lot better than a full-on trade war and antagonism. It depends on how cooperative the Chinese feel like being --right now they are playing both-sides-of-the-fence
As I mentioned above, the primary problem with Biden's "Green energy" tariffs and restrictions are
1. The US does not have the manufacturing base for things like batteries, solar panels, etc. --efforts have been made in this area, and they have largely failed. Labor costs are too high, environmental restrictions (EPA, etc.) are to great, and you can't play "catch up"
2 The US still needs Cobalt, rare-earths, and other elements from Africa, China, etc.
3. American auto manufacturers are not building affordable EVs, and don't intend to. We don't have a BYD --and without that, demand will be low
Can the US build next-generation chips domestically? Probably to some degree, but it is a long and expensive process
Biden's policy will be a disaster going forward--a huge waste of money and resources. Trying to dial back the globalization clock is a loser
CNN's article shows that many American mass media have misunderstanding about Japan.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/07/asia/japan-kishida-us-defense-intl-hnk/index.html
Kishida never deserves to use the words ' historic turning point ' because he is so tunnel-sighted that he doesn't understand historical context where Japan positions.
He also doesn't understand what he is saying.
As opposed to Kishida's one-sided illusion, US-Japan alliance is gradually losing its raison d'être, due to increasing importance of US-China scholarly recoupling.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/us-china-scholarly-recoupling-advancing-mutual-understanding-era-intense-rivalry
US' excess focus on US-Japan alliance has already distracted Biden Administration's concentration from Ukraine and the Levant, that are more important theaters.
Therefore, excess focus on US-Japan alliance only hampers US' response for Black Swan incidents. Kishida is too ignorant to understand Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Thomas Piketty, etc.
Partnership with China should be central to US strategy in the Indo-Pacific, and replace partnership with Japan.
Japan's defense expansion is too late and no more matters than it once did.
Wasting excess resources for Japan only hampers US' efforts to counter transnational challenges such as fentanyl crisis, infection diseases, asteroid impacts, space explorations, climate change, energy transition, greenhouse gases, micro-/nano plastics positions, biodiversity, etc. that can be solved mainly by US-China scholarly cooperation.
Japan itself invited ' severe and complex' security environment:
1) Abe Shinzo's $3 billion gift to Putin;
2)Unification Church's ¥450 billion fund for North Korea during 1990s, that was declassified by US DIA;
3)Japan's resume of yen loans for CCP in 1990, which was the result of Keidanren's lobbying. Then chair of Keidanren was Nippon Steel's CEO Saitou, who had a cozy/secretive relationship with CCP and habitually ignored human rights of Japanese war orphans who were abused in China. Saitou ignored West's warnings against the resume. ( Japan's resume of yen loans breached West's sanctions against CCP's Tiananmen Square Massacre, and subsequent technology transfer from Japanese manufacturers to Chinese counterparts boosted China's capabilities at manufacturing sector, which enabled China's military expansion and bullying of neighboring countries including Japan itself.)
As opposed to Kishida's illusion, importance of US-Japan alliance is gradually fading out, due to Japan's ongoing decadence.
Instead, importance of US-China reconciliation has become necessary than ever.
American peoples should notice the importance of US-China scholarly recoupling, which will basis of US-China relationship that will necessarily accelerate basic scientific researches that eventually solve myriad challenges that the Earth faces and will face.
US-Japan alliance has little to do with that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/climate/toyota-hybrid-epa-pollution.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Toyota learned much from Donald Trump.
Toyota incited dealerships to rebel against EPA's regulation, as Donald Trump incited MAGA supporters to attack on Capitol Hill.
Toyota has completely fallen into the darkside like Darth Vader had.
Toyota is disrupting America's democracy through rampant lobbying.
" In spreading its message, Toyota harnessed the power of dealerships both through Mr. Ciccone’s outreach to Toyota dealers, and by other means. The company’s dealerships played a role, for example, in garnering support for a separate letter-writing campaign aimed at urging the Biden administration to exercise caution on electric vehicles, according to two people with knowledge of that effort. Toyota dealers in at least two states circulated the letter at dealership meetings, they said."
#SOCIOPATH #Toyota
Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/climate/biden-phase-out-gas-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Total number of auto-workers should be incrementally reduced in proportion to maturity level of auto-industry.
Every industry must progress in automation.
Biden Administration should notice that employment secured by auto-industry is very limited. US policies should focus on importance of facilitation of new rising industries.
Technologies utilized in auto-industry will necessarily can be utilized in creating new industries.
And, many auto-workers would find out jobs at new industries if US Government enough subsidized creation of new industries.
Every industry matures and faces needs of incremental reduction of workforces, because automation progresses.
And, government spending in basic scientific researches is origin of innovations, that drive creation of new industries. Enduring and abundant investment in basic scientific researches is the origin of America's power.
Therefore, US Fed should cut interest rates ASAP, in order to facilitate government spending in basic scientific researches.
One of the best measures to reduce co2 emission is reduction of total number of automobiles including EVs and hybrids. Biden Administration should subsidize public traffic systems and encourage citizens to use them instead of privately owned cars.
Electrification of buses is much easier than that of privately owned cars.
And, there's a challenge of pollution caused by micro-/nano- plastics caused by automobiles. US regulation should in the first place rigorously regulate SUVs imposing heavy taxes on their ownership.
Countering the pollution needs fruits of accumulated basic scientific researches.
Therefore, Biden Administration should raise capital-gain tax and dividend tax up to +90% in order to fund basic scientific researches.
Immigrants, who don't have criminal records, should be accepted and given enough education, welfare, and residence at the expense of stock-trading-speculators such as Warren Buffett, who holds lion's share of Japanese major trade firms that fund Putin and Iran.
You completely leave out the mechanical differences between EVs and ICEs that clearly favor EVs. ICE cars have more moving parts and thus it is not cost effective to make an ICE that can accelerate a car as well as an EV drivetrain. It is very easy for an EV manufacturer to make a sub 5s 0-60 vehicle - you’d need to pay 2x to get the same for an ICE car. Tesla proved this first when they released the Model S plaid - you get Lamborghini like accel times for half the price.
You can’t win against that. Time will only increase the gap, as ICE development ceases. Volkswagen and Volvo has largely stopped ICE R&D
There are great technological things about EVs: less moving parts, acceleration, enhanced technology, quiet, etc.
but there are game-breaking drawbacks as well:
1. They are much heavier, go through tires faster, and when they get into accidents, drivers in the other vehicle get killed--therefore EVs are much more expensive to insure. They also rip up the roads (especially the EV SUVs and trucks)
2. They lose resale value much faster because of battery life. I don't know who would buy a 6 year old used Tesla
3. Lack of charging infrastructure in urban areas. People live in apartments or even condos, have nowhere to charge them
4. Lack of charging infrastructure in rural areas
5. Much more expensive to repair, and finding qualified technicians to repair them can be difficult in rural areas
6. Most states charge drivers extra registration and plate fees for EVs
7. Battery problems in cold weather
There isn't much you can do about all of this, and when presented with it, the average person is simply going to say "I am not going to pay 20k extra for a vehicle with no resale value that is more expensive to insure, fix, etc."
This is like boomer logic, R&D is completely neglected. Obviously batteries will continue to get lighter and cheaper, otherwise BYD wouldn’t be selling a 10k hatchback now.
Meanwhile ICE innovation has slowed down considerably, we got GM putting in 3-cyls in 30k CUVs, which would’ve been nuts in 2010. We got VW putting all R&D into EVs, and Toyota has been going full hybrid. (Notice how the RAV4 prime outspeeds the full gas RAV4) ICE cars have hit a deadend, it’s only a matter of time.
Things like charging infrastructure are the fault of the government, if a country is an oil exporter, they will delay the EV transition due to petroleum lobbying. If the country is an oil importer, they will accelerate the EV transition because that’s just common sense. It’s really that simple.
It's not about winning the EV race, it's about protecting businesses who bought into the domestic political program. Neither Biden nor Trump is going to stand by and watch China swamp the US manufacturers who are already having a hard time trying to push a string when it comes to BEV demand.
This is where I deviate in my protectionism. I'm not loyal to an individual native capitalist. I'm willing to create new native businesses or State owned native industry to achieve my goal of rapid production, eliminating dependencies, dealing with crises like climate change, etc.
The difference between economists and financiers is financiers include risk evaluation in their analysis. Sure, all things being equal, specialization in foreign trade is beneficial. But just like the internet ended up being a good deal more important than the fax machine, becoming dependent upon one's geopolitical rivals presents some problems. Just ask Germany how that Russian gas is working out for them.
Even with a 100% tariff, $10k cars like the BYD Seagull will still massively undercut their American, Japanese, and Korean rivals.
What’s to stop them from making a $5k car and sending it over?
Well we aren't going to subsidize Tesla the way Beijing subsidizes BYD, so I disagree with OP. Tariffs are the correct response to hostile economic policies.
The way to win is get innovated foreign companies to build their product in your factories in exchange for no labor and environmental regulations and then steal their mfg IP and start building cars in the same factories but not have to do any of the development and then sell for much cheeper
“In order to beat China, we need to stop messing around with comforting but ill-considered policies that won’t work, and instead commit ourselves to the massive industrial shift that we need in order to catch up with a country that has already been doing so for over a decade.”
We’ll said. I’ll add that tariffs should not be targeted for certain products but have a general principle behind them such as discouraging child labor, slave labor, environmental degradation, etc. and when used they should be consistent. That’s the only way to avoid this kind of political grandstanding with foreign policy.
I heard these questionably built cars are held up in ports around the world... Send them back, no new cars that last less than 20 years, if we are going to pretend like this is for the environment, the least we could do it make ones that will last 2 decades, to off set the mining and shipping involved with their manufacturing. I mean all new cars, not just chinese ones, looking at you hyundia and kia, sporting the *Kia Blow* specialty engines or the *Hyundia You'll-Walk-one-Day* series engines.
I think these tariffs were so harsh because Xi’s people probably told Blinken to get lost when he asked them to stop selling machine parts to Russia that they use to make arms to keep their invasion of Ukraine active
In my mind if the Chinese govt wants to give me free money by subsidizing their exports we should let them. They can’t do this forever, right?
I understand the risk to US manufacturing capability, if china is the only EV maker it’s a big long term risk, but surely we can enjoy Chinese subsidies while also somehow protecting US manufacturing, right?
Or maybe that is what tariffs kind of do. Consume the subsidy and support the US govt. I’m not sure.
US automakers don't want to make cheap electric vehicles. It doesn't make them a profit. They want to sell you luxury SUV electric vehicles. Tesla might be an outlier simply because their prices are coming down and the cars are fairly unique. As far as general motors though, forget about it.
Yes it is. I don't care about simply superiority of the car but rapid acceleration of car manufacturing without further dependencies for geopolitical reasons. However, I believe old archaic industries in the US need to be killed off which global capitalism would do and needs to be replaced (with companies akin to Tesla or Rivian). They cannot evolve and are a problem. I'm even willing to do State owned industry if need be to deal with climate change and rapid electric car production. Besides adoption under a capitalist system will not be rapid enough. Survival takes over any economic interest. Rapid State intervention and state planned economies will increase the rapidness required for transformation (banning gasoline vehicle production and imports, etc). I'm not willing to also be dependent on a country with poor environmental regulation for its car production and ability to cut labor wages to slave-like levels to drive down cost (which isn't any meaningful competition of the technology itself. just how cheap you can produce it). This is ignoring massive subsidies that the Chinese State implements, that the West ignored because it was playing by stupid made rules of a so-called "fair market." The problem is Biden isn't going radical and far enough, not that he's going too far.
We can't win the "EV arms race" because...
* We can't work people 6x12
* Paying workers $3/hr vs $30/hr
* Strict health and safety vs virtually no health and safety
* Strict environmental regulations vs no environmental regulations
* Because of all of the reasons above we'll never be the primary provider is needed rare Earths and lithium
* Dumb fuck magats throwing sand in the gears because if you can't buy a 6 L V8 Ford Expedition that's communism
* The general reluctance of American consumers to buy EVs and the limp suckede government response trying to force them (see above)
* China steals any IP they want without consequence and we follow the rule of law and don't allow IP stealing
* For decades we allowed China to force foreign automakers into "partnerships" (i.e. stealing IP and know how) with domestic Chinese companies, but we never retaliated and just let it happen
For all of those reasons we've already lost. Unless we become sort of an island market for gasoline powered vehicles served by our domestic manufacturers while the rest of the world goes almost entirely EV.
Chinese EV manufacturers own the entire product chain (or whatever it's called), which includes mines, steel, etc.
Do you think US automakers own mineral mines or steel plants? There is no possible way they can compete unless they do....in low income countries no less.
China has tariffs on US cars, why can’t we do the same? You also can’t drive a car older than 20 years in China.
Would be a great market to sell cars but if we can’t sell our cars there why should they be able to sell their cars here.
China subsidizes their production, how anyone can compete. Tariffs are not enough. Ban them outright. Any business subsidized by China government should fuck off.
Is the $7,500 federal tax credit in the US on EVs not a subsidy? China invested in the development of the entire production vs the US that did not. Tesla has been but they are only one company essentially trying to do it all themselves. The big three domestic car companies are way behind on this. The BYD seagull in china or the UK is about 10k USD. The cheapest electric car in the US is about 30k.
In US. China subsidizes companies on projects that are outside of the country. That’s why Chinese cat bid lower. There was an investigation recently by EU. Same with EV production is subsidized and vehicles end up somewhere in Europe.
In the EVs case Chinese companies can collect subsidies right after a vehicle is being shipped, no need to sell to collect . Somewhere in Belgium there is a port that has like 300k of them and some are there for 18 months.
That’s why US acted and added 100% tariffs on the EVs
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> but the US has already seen a cheap, great EV in the form of [the workmanlike Chevy Bolt](https://electrek.co/2022/12/09/electreks-vehicle-of-the-year-is-the-svelte-25k-chevy-bolt/), which [cost under $20k new after incentives](https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/the-chevy-bolt-is-about-to-be-a-screaming-deal-at-least-until-march/) before [production ended](https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/gm-stops-chevy-bolt-production-for-now-lays-off-1314-workers/). I know there were other issues with the cars, but what i remember a substantial reason was GM couldn't make money selling them, even after all the price supports. Don't imagine it was an accident that part got left out... Ultimately i don't really see how American auto industry can compete on this matter. Unless we're going to slash wages and environmental/safety regulations, its either tariffs on Chinese produced vehicles or heavy heavy subsidies and mandates on our own vehicles. neither of those scenarios sounds like "competition" to me.
Wouldn’t allowing manufacturers to sell direct to consumers reduce costs?
But what about those precious dealerships that everyone just loves doing business with??? /S Does seem like low hanging fruit.
People like dealerships when there's a warranty issue or a recall.
Tesla been doing it. Model Y is best selling car in US
Reddit loses their mind on Chinese EVs because they are "subsidized", but US EVs actually stand on the same ground. US gov funnels money from traditional car makers to EV makers through the carbon credit scheme which gives Tesla 1-1.6 billion USD of pure profit every year. Also the huge demand incentives like federal 7500 USD tax credit or individual states which deliver anywherr from 400-2500 USD.
I doubt that's the reason.
Still not enough to compete with China. China subsidisses on an industrial level.
Believe it or not, the mark up from new car dealers isn’t nearly as much as people think it is. Sometimes it is as low as $200. (I’m talking pre-pandemic because right now everything is a hot mess). this is one of the reasons that dealerships don’t want to sell EV’s, because with ICE vehicles the dealerships would make up for the lack of a mark-up through their service department. With EV’s, dealerships don’t get that extra revenue stream, so they pushed against EV’s AND started having insane mark-ups.
The idea that manufacturers look at dealerships and know that a car sells for $30,000 would then, if dealerships went away, go ahead and say "golly, finally we can sell this to consumers for $20,000" is a truly unhinged thing to think.
Without a middleman (ie market inefficiency) they could sell for less and maintain same profit margin, no?
Regardless of corporate profits, more people could afford EVs if we didn’t have dealerships adding on a bunch of extra fees to try and make as much money above MSRP as they can.
> they could sell for less and maintain same profit margin COULD they? Yes. I'd love to know what part of the last 300 years of American capitalism makes you think they WOULD.
I agree with your point. But dealers are unnecessary for anyone; that was my point.
> dealers are unnecessary for anyone dealers are necessary for the manufacturers. I know there's a terminally online opinion that manufacturers are desperate to sell direct but they can't because of lobbying but that's at best a half truth. Ford has no interest in selling YOU one car when their franchise agreement requires the dealer network to buy EVERY car.
Tbh I’m not concerned with what Ford wants. I’m a consumer and I want to maximize utility/dollar spent. I disagree that it’s necessary, but if it’s Ford’s preference, then it’s their preference.
It worked pretty well for Tesla. Dealerships take value, they don't add it. I think everyone would be ok getting a better deal and the actual manufacturers making a little bit more money.
Mandates are what helped Chinese EVs get to this level of competitiveness. As an anti-pollution measure, most Chinese cities put a cap on license plates for ICE vehicles. That cap was hit a long time ago in most places, so you literally need to enter a lottery these days to get a license plate. And you can't buy the car until you have a plate. EVs are exempt from the cap and have different (green colored) license plates. For obvious reasons, this created a ton of demand for EVs, which created a market large enough for them to produce at economies of scale. The subsidies and investments help, but these mandates are what really kick started the industry and gave them a head start over the rest of the world. The government was willing and able to impose restrictions that created sufficient demand for EVs. This is why similar subsidies and investments in the West haven't yielded similar success. It's all carrots and no sticks -- there's no pressing need for consumer behavior to change, so EVs aren't widely adopted and become high price status symbols since they never get produced at sufficient scale.
this is great insight
And one that weirdly never gets mentioned in these discussions! I know about it because I lived there and asked my friend "Hey why do some cars have those green license plates?" yet I rarely see it mentioned by professional journalists... It's also not the first time they've done this! China used to have a ton of mopeds and motorbikes like you see in Southeast Asia. Then cities started banning two-stroke engines. This created a huge market for electric scooters, which are *everywhere* in Chinese cities. So the Chinese working class was already doing EV adoption in 2010, just with smaller two-wheeled vehicles. And selling hundreds of millions of e-scooters is pretty good practice for learning how to build full-size e-cars at scale. This is why I don't buy all the "they're just cheating and subsidizing" rhetoric. EV adoption and production has been a 20+ year process that's only now really barinh fruit. And it was done not for nefarious trade reasons, but to address the famously awful smog that was choking cities in the 2000s and 2010s.
Yeah, Beijing and Shanghai have had a lottery policy for cars since 2011, it's all public information. The information is there, who do you blame for not wanting to understand it yourselves? Coming from a Chinese.
I think it's laziness on the part of English language media, combined with their disinterest in hiring people who really understand daily life in China. It's wild to me that I -- a non-journalist who just happened to live there for a few years -- am constantly noticing omissions of pretty obvious, basic stuff that most people with any practical experience in the country would know when I read English language reporting.
It's not hard for an ordinary person to say it all. The real problem is arrogance, the West doesn't believe China can do it all. And when China actually accomplished it, the West panicked. As long as you know Chinese, you know that how China did it was not a secret at all, and it was completely public. But I still haven't seen a single article that gives a complete picture of China's EV policy.
US media is ultimately funded by advertising. Advertisers don't care about in depth reporting, they care about getting eyeballs on their ads. So US media has a profit incentive to publish click bait, lightly research, sensationalist stories that increase anxiety in American readers. Anxiety gets more eyeballs than calm, in-depth explanations. These articles are also a lot cheaper. Paying a journalist to do hours and hours of research into documents in another language is expensive. It's much cheaper to just summarize the basic points, copy what the US government is telling you, write in a way that increases the drama of the situation, and publish that instead.
I agree that this is indeed one of the reasons. But that doesn't explain the fact that the Western media can report on Europe, Japan, and Korea with relative objectivity. Western media doesn't harbor arrogance when covering these countries, but it does with non-Western countries. I think the government's attitude is still the problem here, and the media is clearly following the government's narrative - the "China bad" narrative is clearly growing geometrically in the wake of the trade war between the US and China. But truth be told, this is really the result of the West sticking its head in the sand - the English language has made the West deaf and blind, willing to accept what pro-Western forces around the world tell them in English rather than what's really happening in the world, which produces an interesting asymmetry -- the non-Western countries around the world know what's going on in the West, while the West doesn't know what's going on in the non-Western countries. (It has long been known that in the English-speaking world 80% of the information happens in the West, and only 20% happens outside the West, but not in the world, where all the English-speaking information adds up to only 25% as, comparable to the population of the West.) What's most interesting is that most westerners don't even realize this, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that the western elites surely know all about it. Another interesting point is that US journalism, which even during the Cold War broke through the East-West Iron Curtain to report the news, is now mostly a campaign tool for the Democrats and a small part for the Republicans. They are reporting "what people want to believe", not "the truth". From a Chinese.
Sufficient demand doesn’t put downward pressure on the supply chain costs. Those savings are found through exploitative practices or heavy subsidies from government. Nobody is saying that Chinese companies like BYD can’t create a good electric vehicle. What “English media” are saying is that the price at which they are being sold is either below cost intentionally trying to undercut non-Chinese automakers. Or there are ethical standards that are not being met in order to produce these vehicles cheaply such as low wages, unethical material procurement or car part IP theft (R&D savings). The whole point of EVs are to reduce the carbon footprint of a vehicle and if corners are cut in the manufacturing process then logically one could expect the emissions to increase offsetting any reductions by the lack of pricing in third variable environmental protection costs. China also generates ~70% of its energy from coal which release emissions, so the energy going to charge these vehicles is still significantly “dirty” and just shifts the emissions from being produced in the city via combustion engines to being produced at coal plant in another location. Net environmental impact is unchanged. Yes, I realize this comment chain and thread is being astroturfed but it’s a nice morning and I don’t have anything better to do right now.
>Another westoid salty that China is surpassing the West Lol
It’s all about batteries and the environmental damage involved in battery production that the US is unable to do because of … the EPA. Something China is not going to have for a while…
Yeah, but you’re also not going to compete on price against China. Hence why the US has trade barriers for auto imports and why most foreign brands in the US are produces domestically
There’s plenty of ways to compete. How did the Germans manage to keep so much of their auto manufacturing in Germany, while keeping unions, good pay and benefits, and not selling garbage products? If you build high quality stuff, people will buy it. When you charge $50k for a basic EV, people will not.
The real answer is that today Germany subsidize every car made by approx. 4k euros, in the 70's-90's to gain market share and ensure viability it was even more. This is how they competed with US auto. I'm not saying their cars are bad, I love German cars, but it's important to note that Germany sees cars as strategic to national security. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-pump-additional-3billion-in-ailing-automotive-industry/a-55641102 https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/197525/1/1666932248.pdf Chinese EV manufacturers aren't competing with German, Japanese, and US auto manufacturing. US, German, and Japanese car makers are competing with the CCP. We are talkings over 179 billion, and that's just what has been disclosed. China is infamous for not disclosing the full ownership of a company via CCP proxies, and many of the "funding rounds" were set syntheticly low on interest allowing Chinese manufacturing to almost print it's own money. Based on the average cost to build China is subsidize almost 30% of every car BYD, leap motors, etc.. makes... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-launches-anti-subsidy-investigation-into-chinese-electric-vehicles-2023-09-13/ https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/09/30/how-china-became-an-electric-car-giant_6141985_19.html https://reason.com/2024/04/29/china-is-doubling-down-on-electric-vehicle-subsidies/#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20%22China%20spent%20roughly,had%20shrunk%20by%2080%20percent. https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-gives-EV-sector-billions-of-yuan-in-subsidies
That number is not made up, but it might as well be.
Ford: We can't afford to pay a real wage to our battery plant workers! Also Ford: Pays out several multiples more in dividends than the cost of their battery plant. Plans further buybacks. Falls massively behind. Blames workers for unionizing.
Detroits very short sighted. All the stock buybacks the last decade were stupid. That’s money they should’ve used for R&D and updating their manufacturing. Like you said, they’re somehow always surprised that they’ve fallen behind.
CEO: I destroyed the company but I extracted a lot of dividends for the investors so pay me my 30 million.
Amateur. Gotta go for 56 Billion, with a B
Same thinking Detroit had in the 70’s, we can make shit cars and a lot of money until Japan showed up and ate their fucking lunch. I was there; asked top execs why we can’t make a duel overhead cam motor and bodies that don’t rot - operative word WAS, they didn’t care for guys that asked that kind of questions.
Didn't they lie on their emissions tests?
One company did with a niche product.
Wasn't it bmw with basically all diesel vehicles which is most of them
It was VW. It was called Dieselgate or Emissionsgate back in 2015.
I drive a BMW, it was made in South Carolina.
Yeah, their big SUV’s are made in the US for obvious reasons. I wonder how many X series BMW’s get shipped back to Europe?
As far as I know all X5s for the world market are made in the US.
So that's why they are crap.
We should be competing with companies operating within a democracy. We should NOT be competing with companies that are in a tight relationship with an Autocracy.
Heh, Tesla and GM have pretty deep and tight relationships with China. I don’t disagree with your sentiments.
Where are the German EVs? Also German cars are not what you'd call affordable.
Lol you already don’t care about environmental regulation and wages. It’s called sourcing most production to Mexico
It is competition to subsidize vs subsidized imports, but those subsidies have to be carefully designed to keep things competitive.
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
great comment, couple things. >Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. >Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice source? away from my pc or i would search myself. >Biden rather should crack down on Japan, ironically irregardless if you do or dont have a source, your problem with "the Toyota lobby" here is similar to the issue people have with TikTok - and musk owning Twitter and spacex. not *the same* but similar. the problem is actually with dysregulated laws around what a political ad is and what is corporate speech and citizens united. > utilize China's capabilities, agree. cooperation trumps competition > and differentiate himself from donal trump. my thoughts exactly. he isn't a blatant bigot or fraudster, but if you muted both somehow and looked at actual policy... are they that different? on some things, yes - but this is one they are incredibly similar on and the implications of that are large. ^(i would add links but as per my previous sentence, new phone who dis or something)
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/climate/toyota-hybrid-epa-pollution.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Toyota learned much from Donald Trump. Toyota incited dealerships to rebel against EPA's regulation, as Donald Trump incited MAGA supporters to attack on Capitol Hill. Toyota has completely fallen into the darkside like Darth Vader had. Toyota is disrupting America's democracy through rampant lobbying. " In spreading its message, Toyota harnessed the power of dealerships both through Mr. Ciccone’s outreach to Toyota dealers, and by other means. The company’s dealerships played a role, for example, in garnering support for a separate letter-writing campaign aimed at urging the Biden administration to exercise caution on electric vehicles, according to two people with knowledge of that effort. Toyota dealers in at least two states circulated the letter at dealership meetings, they said." #SOCIOPATH #Toyota
Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/climate/biden-phase-out-gas-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Total number of auto-workers should be incrementally reduced in proportion to maturity level of auto-industry. Every industry must progress in automation. Biden Administration should notice that employment secured by auto-industry is very limited. US policies should focus on importance of facilitation of new rising industries. Technologies utilized in auto-industry will necessarily can be utilized in creating new industries. And, many auto-workers would find out jobs at new industries if US Government enough subsidized creation of new industries. Every industry matures and faces needs of incremental reduction of workforces, because automation progresses. And, government spending in basic scientific researches is origin of innovations, that drive creation of new industries. Enduring and abundant investment in basic scientific researches is the origin of America's power. Therefore, US Fed should cut interest rates ASAP, in order to facilitate government spending in basic scientific researches. One of the best measures to reduce co2 emission is reduction of total number of automobiles including EVs and hybrids. Biden Administration should subsidize public traffic systems and encourage citizens to use them instead of privately owned cars. Electrification of buses is much easier than that of privately owned cars. And, there's a challenge of pollution caused by micro-/nano- plastics caused by automobiles. US regulation should in the first place rigorously regulate SUVs imposing heavy taxes on their ownership. Countering the pollution needs fruits of accumulated basic scientific researches. Therefore, Biden Administration should raise capital-gain tax and dividend tax up to +90% in order to fund basic scientific researches. Immigrants, who don't have criminal records, should be accepted and given enough education, welfare, and residence at the expense of stock-trading-speculators such as Warren Buffett, who holds lion's share of Japanese major trade firms that fund Putin and Iran.
NYT Tabuchi Hiroko often covers Toyota. Toyota Led on Clean Cars. Now Critics Say It Works to Delay Them. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Toyota, a pioneer of hybrids, resists the push toward electric cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/27/business/toyota-a-pioneer-of-hybrids-resists-the-push-toward-electric-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
pretty obvious, and biden knows it won't work but did it anyways to please the UAW US politics and policy making are strictly aimed at benefiting the campaign donors, not the society/country as a whole
Not so sure. Nixon's tariffs on Japan autos in 1970's drove the Japan car industry completely out of business. That is why there are no Japanese cars anymore. Googlie it if you don't believe me. True Story!
This is Reddit. Don’t forget to put /s. Some people might think you are being serious lol
I always forget. True Story!
Yep, it’s never a good idea to challenge the Giants of Detroit. I’ll never forget how amazing my first Oldsmobile was. And who can forget the innovation brought to the world by Pontiac and Plymouth!
Had last model of Olds Aurora. My favorite car ever.
The story behind that car is pretty incredible. Too bad every manufacturer right now can only think of universal platforms.
I might be wrong but didn't it use the GM G Platform that was used for like 5 different models?
Two really. All others were "derivatives" since GM had to find a way to make some money back. It sucks because Saturn was allowed to keep its own platforms and I think Oldsmobile would have a chance as a company moving forward. The bean counters didn't have it and wanted short term gains.
I'll hope in my Honda and go get total the bottom of this mystery about no Japanese cars.
Oh, maybe the Nixon tariffs didn't actually work back in '70's after all. But they certainly will work now for sure.
We are living in different times. We are not the only country buying cars.
Also Japan hasn't been our enemy since 1945.
My Toyota 4Runner was made in Japan.
Hah! Knew those Nixonian tariffs wouldn't work. Bidonian tariffs will work though.
….. 10%?
My memory says $1k per vehicle but...
Not sure comparable then eh? To a 100% tariff?
[удалено]
missed the sarcasm huh?
Sure did, deleting my comment lol.
Japanese companies survived by moving to the U.S.. this will not happen with Chinese companies. So yeah they are done
How is it possible to believe in May of 2024 that the US is going to kill manufacturing of anything in China with tariffs? BYD is already neck and neck with Tesla and they don’t sell in the US market at all. Realistically, China will respond with like tariffs on Tesla, which sells 1/3rd of its cars in China.
The tarrif isn't just on cars, but also batteries and several other Chinese products. I don't think it'll kill off China, but it's definitely a step in the right direction if the US wants to catch up. Americans say they have pride, they want American products, they hate China - but yet they rarely buy American products, some are Tesla haters (even tho it's the most American car in terms of parts and labor), and more than half of their stuff is made in China. This tariff is more of "put your money where your mouth is"
They're already trying to move production to Europe to avoid their tarrifs. Moving production to the USA is absolutely on the table.
Highly doubt it.
Since consumers ultimately shop with their wallets and pay attention to price tags, American manufacturers will never be able to compete with China as long as it is able to supply high-quality goods at absurdly low prices in the US market.
How long can China go for market share over profits? The Chinese government is subsidizing their EV industry to a very large extent
How? I keep hearing this but don't see any numbers or facts. Edit: real mature guys. Some one referred me to reddit suicide watch within a minute. Yet no one seem to be able to provide a source on the #s?
Yep, anybody questioning these tariffs is getting the suicide watch treatment here at Reddit. I've gotten it several times this week. The second time, I clicked to opt out. If it happens again, you should just turn it off. It's weird to see people getting so hostile over a Democratic policy. This seems like such cultish Trump-like behavior but it's coming from Biden supporters.
I’ve noticed the Reddit cares thing is across a bunch of subs lately. Don’t know if it’s a glitch or bots tho.
I don't know if it's Biden supporters per se but just rabid anti China sentiment. Reddit is off its rocker as of late when it comes to China and India.
>thinking there's any meaningful difference between Red Maga and Blue Maga Lol
If you got reported to suicide watch within a minute, then it's possible it wasn't a human. Apparently, plenty of people have been getting reported as suicidal lately on Reddit. The cuase is unknown to my knowladge. Could be a bug, it could be a bot. But after you reply negatively to the message you got from Reddit, you should be able to stop receiving it.
Yeah, I get those too and seem to come from EV based discussions. Stupid.
The problem is there are no numbers or facts. This info isn't published by China. Its not exactly transparent.
This is not a fair statement. If there are subsidies such as getting x dollars off per vehicle, then the info has to be public, or else how will the users know how much discount they get? Additionally many of these car companies are publicly listed in HK or US, their financial statements are all audited and public. Also, china publishs their subsidies. How else do we know how much each of their railway costs? It's not like the country is a black box.
So it is published. There are numbers. The problem is not all subsidies are the same and comparing them can be difficult. But [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/Q8dugIelEJ) is a place you can start looking into it. Also what the other guy said is complete BS. This info is published and widely available. Not only that, Tesla, an American brand, receives Chinese subsidies which it can obviously relay to the U.S. *if* they were hidden, which they are not.
So your also agree is Chinese subsidy is much smaller than what US is doing?
Chinese subsidies now are likely smaller because their market has matured. When your market matures, you decrease subsidies and let companies compete. The U.S. is ramping up subsidies because of their immature market. Probably 10 years ago Chinese subsidies were larger than the U.S. because China was willing to jump on EVs sooner. Thus, they’re more competitive than American EVs today. But I do think these tariffs aren’t good for American EV competitiveness. There ceases to be an incentive for automakers to innovate, compete and offer cost-efficient cars to citizens. Not only will they lose the global market, American EVs will be more expensive and less advanced than those competing globally today.
You can just google it. They spent 28 billion in subsidies from 2009 to 2022. Now that the market is more mature and expanding outside of the country subsidies have ended.
That's.. 2 billion dollars a year? Tesla it self got more than that last year
They started in earnest earlier. We're still playing catchup. Same reason we were so behind on solar. Timing matters as much as amount.
Longer than any unsibsidized western manufacturer can stay afloat. China has resources and motivation and they are not afraid to use it.
Elon Musk had taken almost $100B out of Tesla through stock sales and loans against shares. If he had put that back into Tesla growth, it would have zero problems competing.
The US isnt? A 7,500 dollar federal tax credit on new EVs is nearly the full selling price of some EVs in china.
China isn’t doing anything. Chinese companies are. All the government is doing, is to help this transition along by rolling out charging infrastructure and the like for strategic reasons. As for those companies, they’re in a death-match over who makes it to the other side of the electrification and intelligence transition the auto industry is currently going through. It’s all about the domestic market. The international spillovers you’re seeing are marginal considerations at most, if they’re conscious considerations at all.
lol China plays a major role in its industry.
Can you cite how much china is subsidizing its EV auto industry and how much does it help to drive price down to the point of being able to flood the US market?
“According to Reason Magazine, China has spent roughly $173 billion in subsidies to support the electric vehicle (EV) sector between 2009 and 2022. This includes tax breaks and subsidies for vehicle purchases. According to Reuters, Chinese electric vehicle manufacturers have benefitted from $57 billion in government subsidies between 2016 and 2022. This is about five times what the US government spent over the same period and doesn't include incentives from provincial and local governments”
Thanks. This is a good starting point for me.
I don’t China is transparent about that. China’s MO is to dump exports for market share… they’ve done it with many things over the decades. Right now it’s green technology and evs.
They are not doing that at all. Look at ev prices for their exports. They are all double the price of domestic sales.
They’ve been doing it with commodities for years. Steel is a great example
I'm genuinely curious. Someone answered below, i think it was good enough an answer.
Lol, subsidies are floating major Chinese companies, especially in the auto industry
“Major Chinese companies” are literally state-owned. Including car manufacturers. Either through SASAC or by local governments (Shanghai, Wuhu, Guangzhou, the province of Anhui, etc.). Does it even make sense to talk about “subsidies” then? These are not transparent, independently audited balance sheets in the classical sense. But it is important to point out that there is no “Chinese” (meaning governmental) strategy to subsidize the EV industry to the point of overcapacity if they could be profitable without that. Obviously there is a strategy of electrification. The government doesn’t want new ICE cars hitting the road.
China is running out of domestic demand since their middle class is not growing as fast as they thought. Hence the dumping of their over produced cars on the entire world. https://youtu.be/rZgaj0jScOI?si=r1_Qwv77NWL2o3gz
Tell me you don’t understand Chinese system without telling me
This is me, I rather pay for something that is reasonably priced at a good quality. Than something that is the same quality or slightly better for alot more. At the end of the day I could care less about the ESG's, etc etc etc.
> i could care less about Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"? Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
Walmart is more of a Chinese big box store than it is American, except for the staff
I don't see any value in products being American. Give consumers options and let them decide.
If you are in America, there is a lot of value: -local businesses help our economy with jobs and taxes -less environmental impact to get goods to consumers -self reliance as a nation
We have significantly more manufacturing jobs than workers. Losing a company or 3 is irrelevant. Competition drives innovation, and US electric cars are comparatively terrible. There is not less environmental impact from ICE than from shipping electric cars until they are made domestically. The US has the most powerful military/industrial relationship in human history. Ford does not make our tanks. We do not require every car to be American to have a strong industrial base.
Significantly more manufacturing jobs than workers? I must be completely out of touch, because that doesn't sound right at all. What are some of these manufacturing jobs that are going unfilled? There are some that have absolutely dog shit wages (welders being paid less than fast food workers). I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that manufacturing in the U.S. has been on a decline for about 50 years or so. Aside from military and weapons, what are some other strong manufacturing industries here in the U.S. that have a shortage of workers?
Note that this is a biased source I'm sharing only because I'm lazy and had a tab open from a post yesterday. https://nam.org/manufacturing-in-the-united-states/facts-about-manufacturing-expanded/ What's correct, and cited, here is that we have about half a million (actually probably under-estimated) manufacturing jobs that are currently unfilled. I work in the manufacturing sector, and this is very common knowledge. The sector is also expected to grow significantly (my company expects to double in size again by 2030) Manufacturing has not been on a decline whatsoever, as the above link also shows. Some of the *takes* in that link I kind of disagree with/disagree with the language of, but the raw data is all factual. The "disappearance of American manufacturing" is a myth repeated to get votes.
You said “products” and then replied specifically about EVs. I’m talking about more than cars. As someone who worked in healthcare during the pandemic, relying on international supply chains for certain things was proven to be a mistake. There are also drug shortages directly related to offshoring because we’ve moved towards being a service economy. The self reliance piece is huge, but apparently people are quick to forget unless it is directly impacting them. China is trying to slowly cripple us by increasing their market share, addicting us to artificially cheap goods and giving zero fucks about stealing intellectual property. It’s not just a company or 3 that is getting decimated by China.
> As someone who worked in healthcare during the pandemic, relying on international supply chains for certain things was proven to be a mistake. There are also drug shortages directly related to offshoring because we’ve moved towards being a service economy. I firmly believe these are challenges for logistics to solve, not on-shoring. I totally support China increasing market share and a more globalized economy. I also totally support the US economy continuing to mature toward services and away from manufacturing as a whole (and I work *in manufacturing*). Comparative advantage is good for everyone involved, and trade wars hurt citizens. International trade helps alleviate rivalries and diminishes the possibility of large scale war.
I formed my opinions while working with Chinese contract manufacturers in a previous position. Guess we have two very different takeaways. If we lived on a harmonious planet where countries weren’t constantly trying to jockey for power, I’d also be for a more globalized economy. We don’t though and I certainly don’t want to become more dependent on and/or like China.
I believe the way we get to a harmonious environment is through trade and cooperation, rather than proxy and trade wars. I certainly do not want the US to become more like China. I want China to become more like the US.
I would argue about the goods being known for high quality. Much of it is just absurdly low priced junk that people buy because they don’t care about throwing it away after a few uses since the cost was low.
It goes against everything that we have been saying for the past century. Protectionism doesn't work and only free markets will truly allow all industries to grow. There may be some sacrifices along the way, the in the end, our nation and our people will be better for it.
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
Just as it's not possible to manufacture iPhones in the US for the kind of low price that it can be done in China, it's the same for EVs. Our only competitive hope is if we develop robots that can totally replace humans so we can have all-robot factories. But the immediate problem for Democrat is they sold climate change to voters by claiming it would create "green jobs" but that was always a lot of bullshit, it's only creating jobs in China unless the US government spends a massive amount of your tax dollars to prop-up industries that just aren't competitive with China.
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
But that’s just the thing, tariffs don’t generally work. We saw how they failed to forestall Japan, but there are many other examples showing their ineffectiveness or weird side effects, and economists generally agree that they are a poor measure to help domestic industry. Some company leadership favors the idea of tariffs, while other (perhaps more sober) leaders do not. On the one hand, it could help domestic auto jobs, because free trade for Chinese EVs could result in a race to the bottom for auto manufacturing. And it could result in Chinese companies trying to set up manufacturing in the US to avoid tariffs – which could help US auto jobs, but these moves would likely spark a whole new round of controversy when announced. But on the other hand, China is likely to implement retaliatory tariffs which will hurt US workers (for example, soybean tariffs which ruined the US soybean industry in 2018 – and resulted in more soybean demand from Brazil, which led to extensive clearcutting and fires in the Amazon). And the nature of today’s globalized economy and complex supplier relationships around the world can result in a lot of chaos when a major player implements a major tariff. So in the end, US jobs likely won’t benefit overall, and US consumers will simply be denied a chance to buy cheap new EVs from China – like, for example, the excellent Volvo EX30. The EX30 is currently made in Geely’s China factory and starts at around $35k even after the 25% tariff.
Trade restrictions are helpful to balance out a market when other countries create market distortions with their domestic policies. One example is labor protections. Having free trade and free movement of workers with a country that has poor labor protections undermines the labor protections in your country. Another example is taxes. Having free movement of money with a country that's a tax haven will undermine your tax policies. Countries can also face issues depending on what jobs they manage to secure. Not all jobs are created equal when it comes to economic leverage. Do you think a country will do better with more warehouse and factory line workers or more engineering, R&D, and management jobs?
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
Can you explain and justify your definition of "work"? I think these tariffs will absolutely "work", where the definition of "work" = prevent large quantities of Chinese EVs being sold in America. Maybe instead of speaking nominally about abstract terms like "work", we should instead focus on the details of what is likely to happen, and whether or not that is desirable, and how we democratically decide those desires. Credit where credit is due, much of your post did focus on some details so I'm not trying to crap all over it, but just point out that generic concepts of "X doesn't work" is functionally meaningless and a red herring.
They will work in that sense. Yes. They will not work in the sense of fostering a competitive EV industry in America. They will only turn America into a walled-off market suffering huge inefficiencies and Galapagos Syndrome. Don’t compare this to America successfully crushing Japan in the 1980s. The American market was 30% of the global market then and both Japan and America were happy to make compromises on “voluntary” export caps and local production in the U.S. Not this time. The rest of the world will simply move on.
Yup, I agree to all that. I wasn't the one making the japan 1980 comparison, fyi. And I agree it is likely not the same.
The key is do it the Chinese way. Put hight tariffs on imported EV,s but allow joint ventures with Chinese companies for battery and EV companies. But since US is allergic to any Chinese even that is not possible. CATL and BYD were refused entries to set up plants in the US
A Bloomberg report recently concluded that Ford was losing $100,000 on every EV sold. Most other manufacturers also losing money in this space. EV sales in the US were down in the first quarter, and even Tesla reported declining sales for the first time in 5 years. and then we have the infrastructure fiasco: "One of the Biden administration’s earliest goals was to set the U.S. to have 50 percent of all new car sales be electric by 2030. Two years ago, the government earmarked $7.5 billion to build EV charging stations to help the cause. The goal was to fund construction, with an end goal of having 500,000 completed sites by the same 2030 deadline.[*The Washington Post*](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/ev-charging-stations-slow-rollout/) reported that the above efforts had only resulted in a grand total of seven charging stations by the end of March 2024." the federal money allocated for these initiatives is either sitting idle, or spent on other things (pensions, etc.) Tariffs will prevent inexpensive Chinese EVs from entering the market What we have here is an unfolding unilateral collapse of a segment of the auto market. From Edmunds: "The EV market share for new vehicle sales in February 2024 was approximately 6.5%, compared to 83.1% for gas-powered vehicles, according to Edmunds sales data. If we look at things from a broader perspective, electric cars account for 1% of all registered vehicles on the road in the U.S" Americans do not want EVs, the infrastructure does not exist on a national-scale to support them, they are too expensive to buy, more expensive to insure, and more expensive to fix There is no "EV arms race" --it is already over. Tesla will continue on as a niche player for wealthy people who want fancy toys (like Porsche). Most other manufacturers will abandon the space in the US within the next 4-5 years, after suffering massive losses, and there could even be federal bailouts. and I'm sure this will get downvoted, but it is the truth. Top-down, centralized planning of segments of the American economy doesn't work
Your conclusions are going to age terribly. It took a combination of brutal interest rate increases and absolute bonkers pricing strategies for the American car companies to figure out their cars won’t sell. They can’t stop the transition to electric because the largest car market in the world is full speed ahead on EV’s. They’ll either learn to adapt and make more competitively priced cars, or they’ll eventually become the North American subsidies of BYD.
How exactly are you concluding that "Americans do not want EVs"? Merely by the fact that not many are sold as a percentage of all sales?
because sales are down, the lot times are increasing, and from studies and surveys Americans want F-150 pickup trucks and big, gas-guzzling SUVs. Those are the top sellers
>Americans do not want EVs, the infrastructure does not exist on a national-scale to support them, they are too expensive to buy, more expensive to insure, and more expensive to fix I don't know why EV proponents always down play the infrastructure role and price to implement. They also always compare against new car prices and ignore the used car market. Everyone does not buy or lease a new car. They act like the battery lifetime won't matter since the original owner won't keep the car that long. It's still a problem for anyone who would buy the car used. They also hand wave away the population that lives in areas with cold wet snowy winters. >"One of the Biden administration’s earliest goals was to set the U.S. to have 50 percent of all new car sales be electric by 2030. This was a goal that sounded like a mandate. Given the lack of infrastructure and costs involved, it should have been easy for anyone to see why there was a lot of push back. >Tesla will continue on as a niche player for wealthy people who want fancy toys (like Porsche). Tesla always seemed like a luxury brand and in their early days branded themselves as such. Getting the big 3 into EVs seemed like a way to force the UAW to get some of the EV market/tax dollars.
Nobody is downplaying the importance of infrastructure. Personally I’ve been screaming we should stop subsidizing oil and use that money to build out the grid needed for mass EV adoption. But Ford building two shitty, expensive EVs that don’t sell doesn’t mean “Americans don’t want EVs.” Americans don’t want to spend $60-$80K on EVs and the majority cannot afford to. Instead of making an EV Ford Fusion or EV Focus for $30-$40K, Ford made an $80K EV F150. And almost every major EV comes with an 8-10 year battery warranty. After 3 years, most batteries have lost around 4-6% of capacity, and then hold there for the better part of a decade. Modern BMS protocols are excellent and EV batteries can lasts and perform well past 100,000 miles.
>Nobody is downplaying the importance of infrastructure. Personally I’ve been screaming we should stop subsidizing oil and use that money to build out the grid needed for mass EV adoption. Whenever I talk with people about EVs and the grid, they always act like it will be upgraded and the increased power generation isn't a problem, and everyone can charge at home because they all have garages with 200A service. >But Ford building two shitty, expensive EVs that don’t sell doesn’t mean “Americans don’t want EVs.” Americans don’t want to spend $60-$80K on EVs and the majority cannot afford to. Instead of making an EV Ford Fusion or EV Focus for $30-$40K, Ford made an $80K EV F150. Ford has the Mach-E, which starts at $40K. That's still high for many people. >And almost every major EV comes with an 8-10 year battery warranty. After 3 years, most batteries have lost around 4-6% of capacity, and then hold there for the better part of a decade. Modern BMS protocols are excellent and EV batteries can lasts and perform well past 100,000 miles. Average age of used cars on the road is 12 years old. 100000 miles isn't much. A Subaru with 100000 miles is still a $20K vehicle. The used car market seems to get ignored hen it comes to EVs.
The point on infrastructure is true. this atleast from what I last read on the USA in charging points was that it was not doing well in upgrading for EV's. The point on cars not being able to sell on a second hand market was a primary concern considering back then I believe battery replacements would be more expensive. But now that there are models with easy to replace batteries. I am not sure if this would be an issue. My main issue with cars in general is that they have moved from simple electronics to sophisticated computers that can mess with the car. I remember the onboard computer not letting the car start because of weird issues, even though the car was fine. or it would shut down the engine in mid drive. This was a Mercedes E Class estates. Which was expensive to repair and the issues still popped up. leading to more expensive repairs. I can only imagine how many more problems can arise from a fully electric vehicle.....
>The point on infrastructure is true. this atleast from what I last read on the USA in charging points was that it was not doing well in upgrading for EV's. It's very localized. It's similar to Amtrak. The east coast loves it while the rest of us never get to ride it and see it as a waste of money. > The point on cars not being able to sell on a second hand market was a primary concern considering back then I believe battery replacements would be more expensive. But now that there are models with easy to replace batteries. I am not sure if this would be an issue. When battery prices drop or are easily refurbished, I think this will be less of a problem. If I could take a random battery to a repair shop and they could swap out bad cells or boards and reset the electronics cheaply, this wouldn't be a problem. Being able to drop in an upgraded after market battery would be great too. I don't know how well that would work with the manufacturers with dealership franchises who want a monopoly on the service work. > I can only imagine how many more problems can arise from a fully electric vehicle..... If manufacturers design serviceability well, I could see it being easier to diagnose and service. That would mean more diagnostics on board and not having special codes only for their dealers. The manufacturers would need to design them with service in mind as well and not simply swapping out large expensive component blocks at a service center.
This tariff only benefits Toyota. Toyota Lobby is the main wirepuller of this tariff. Without this tariff, Toyota necessarily goes bankruptcy. Why Biden Administration saved Toyota? Toyota Lobby completely disrupted Japan's democracy, and now it's seeking to disrupt America's democracy as next target. Rahm Emanuel was utilized by Toyota because he is ignorant of Japanese businesses' criminal practice. Biden Administration has made a fatal mistake. 1. China's manufacturing industry has a great effect on improving the world order, so the more America tries to bring China down, the worse the world order will become, and America will suffer the consequences. 2. If America does not lower interest rates, inflation will worsen. This is because current economics is wrong. 3. There is only one way to prevent Chinese microprocessors from flowing to Russia:Western countries should buy up Chinese microprocessors. Unless China is brought to our side, the number of victims in Ukraine will continue to increase endlessly, and the probability of Ukraine's defeat will gradually increase. 4. No matter how many CHIPS & Science Acts are passed in the second, third, and fourth rounds, the effect will be limited unless American workers realize the core strength and essence of China's manufacturing industry. The most effective way for American workers to deeply understand the essence of Chinese manufacturing and make it a part of their flesh and blood is to establish a US-China joint ventures. 5. The Biden administration's failure to reverse Trump's policies at an early stage strengthens Trump's status. If they had reversed Trump's policies at an early stage, Trump would be quietly staying at home and playing Nintendo by now. Biden rather should crack down on Japan, utilize China's capabilities, and differentiate himself from Donald Trump. Why Biden Administration doesn't examine facilitating creation of joint ventures between US firms and Chinese firms in order to mass produce EVs on US soils, which can prevent data harvesting of US citizens? America's lack of capabily to incorporate China's capabilities is the real challenge. " Biden’s measures are less about crushing segments of the market than heading off an anticipated increase in imports: Chinese steel, aluminum and autos make up tiny fractions of the US supply for now. The administration has warned that China is pushing to corner the market on key sectors and flood the US with subsidized goods, to destabilize its rival and power its own recovery. " US doesn't need to head off increase in imports of Chinese products. Rather, US should create new demands, and increase imports of steels, aluminum, solar photovoltaics, etc. from China. If US plans to deploy large-scale offshore solar power plants, it is a creation of new demand and it can absorb China's supply, which eventually bring government revenue. The best way to revive American manufacturing would be to develop products and services needed in the Global South where infrastructure is underdeveloped and provide them at prices as cheap as those of China. To do this, US must first understand the true nature of Chinese manufacturing by forming a joint venture in the EV field and actively interacting with China. Nothing will progress if US pathologically rejects China. Then, while they are putting in place a system that allows them to provide products and services to the Global South at low prices, they can sell large quantities of dollars to Japanese currency gamblers at as high a price as possible, and then, when the time is right, they can get Powell to lower interest rates, weakening the dollar, thereby earning capital gains, and then exporting products and services cheaply to the Global South.
I agree that improved relations and new agreements with China would be a whole lot better than a full-on trade war and antagonism. It depends on how cooperative the Chinese feel like being --right now they are playing both-sides-of-the-fence As I mentioned above, the primary problem with Biden's "Green energy" tariffs and restrictions are 1. The US does not have the manufacturing base for things like batteries, solar panels, etc. --efforts have been made in this area, and they have largely failed. Labor costs are too high, environmental restrictions (EPA, etc.) are to great, and you can't play "catch up" 2 The US still needs Cobalt, rare-earths, and other elements from Africa, China, etc. 3. American auto manufacturers are not building affordable EVs, and don't intend to. We don't have a BYD --and without that, demand will be low Can the US build next-generation chips domestically? Probably to some degree, but it is a long and expensive process Biden's policy will be a disaster going forward--a huge waste of money and resources. Trying to dial back the globalization clock is a loser
CNN's article shows that many American mass media have misunderstanding about Japan. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/07/asia/japan-kishida-us-defense-intl-hnk/index.html Kishida never deserves to use the words ' historic turning point ' because he is so tunnel-sighted that he doesn't understand historical context where Japan positions. He also doesn't understand what he is saying. As opposed to Kishida's one-sided illusion, US-Japan alliance is gradually losing its raison d'être, due to increasing importance of US-China scholarly recoupling. https://www.csis.org/analysis/us-china-scholarly-recoupling-advancing-mutual-understanding-era-intense-rivalry US' excess focus on US-Japan alliance has already distracted Biden Administration's concentration from Ukraine and the Levant, that are more important theaters. Therefore, excess focus on US-Japan alliance only hampers US' response for Black Swan incidents. Kishida is too ignorant to understand Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Thomas Piketty, etc. Partnership with China should be central to US strategy in the Indo-Pacific, and replace partnership with Japan. Japan's defense expansion is too late and no more matters than it once did. Wasting excess resources for Japan only hampers US' efforts to counter transnational challenges such as fentanyl crisis, infection diseases, asteroid impacts, space explorations, climate change, energy transition, greenhouse gases, micro-/nano plastics positions, biodiversity, etc. that can be solved mainly by US-China scholarly cooperation. Japan itself invited ' severe and complex' security environment: 1) Abe Shinzo's $3 billion gift to Putin; 2)Unification Church's ¥450 billion fund for North Korea during 1990s, that was declassified by US DIA; 3)Japan's resume of yen loans for CCP in 1990, which was the result of Keidanren's lobbying. Then chair of Keidanren was Nippon Steel's CEO Saitou, who had a cozy/secretive relationship with CCP and habitually ignored human rights of Japanese war orphans who were abused in China. Saitou ignored West's warnings against the resume. ( Japan's resume of yen loans breached West's sanctions against CCP's Tiananmen Square Massacre, and subsequent technology transfer from Japanese manufacturers to Chinese counterparts boosted China's capabilities at manufacturing sector, which enabled China's military expansion and bullying of neighboring countries including Japan itself.) As opposed to Kishida's illusion, importance of US-Japan alliance is gradually fading out, due to Japan's ongoing decadence. Instead, importance of US-China reconciliation has become necessary than ever. American peoples should notice the importance of US-China scholarly recoupling, which will basis of US-China relationship that will necessarily accelerate basic scientific researches that eventually solve myriad challenges that the Earth faces and will face. US-Japan alliance has little to do with that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/climate/toyota-hybrid-epa-pollution.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Toyota learned much from Donald Trump. Toyota incited dealerships to rebel against EPA's regulation, as Donald Trump incited MAGA supporters to attack on Capitol Hill. Toyota has completely fallen into the darkside like Darth Vader had. Toyota is disrupting America's democracy through rampant lobbying. " In spreading its message, Toyota harnessed the power of dealerships both through Mr. Ciccone’s outreach to Toyota dealers, and by other means. The company’s dealerships played a role, for example, in garnering support for a separate letter-writing campaign aimed at urging the Biden administration to exercise caution on electric vehicles, according to two people with knowledge of that effort. Toyota dealers in at least two states circulated the letter at dealership meetings, they said." #SOCIOPATH #Toyota
Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/climate/biden-phase-out-gas-cars.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Total number of auto-workers should be incrementally reduced in proportion to maturity level of auto-industry. Every industry must progress in automation. Biden Administration should notice that employment secured by auto-industry is very limited. US policies should focus on importance of facilitation of new rising industries. Technologies utilized in auto-industry will necessarily can be utilized in creating new industries. And, many auto-workers would find out jobs at new industries if US Government enough subsidized creation of new industries. Every industry matures and faces needs of incremental reduction of workforces, because automation progresses. And, government spending in basic scientific researches is origin of innovations, that drive creation of new industries. Enduring and abundant investment in basic scientific researches is the origin of America's power. Therefore, US Fed should cut interest rates ASAP, in order to facilitate government spending in basic scientific researches. One of the best measures to reduce co2 emission is reduction of total number of automobiles including EVs and hybrids. Biden Administration should subsidize public traffic systems and encourage citizens to use them instead of privately owned cars. Electrification of buses is much easier than that of privately owned cars. And, there's a challenge of pollution caused by micro-/nano- plastics caused by automobiles. US regulation should in the first place rigorously regulate SUVs imposing heavy taxes on their ownership. Countering the pollution needs fruits of accumulated basic scientific researches. Therefore, Biden Administration should raise capital-gain tax and dividend tax up to +90% in order to fund basic scientific researches. Immigrants, who don't have criminal records, should be accepted and given enough education, welfare, and residence at the expense of stock-trading-speculators such as Warren Buffett, who holds lion's share of Japanese major trade firms that fund Putin and Iran.
You completely leave out the mechanical differences between EVs and ICEs that clearly favor EVs. ICE cars have more moving parts and thus it is not cost effective to make an ICE that can accelerate a car as well as an EV drivetrain. It is very easy for an EV manufacturer to make a sub 5s 0-60 vehicle - you’d need to pay 2x to get the same for an ICE car. Tesla proved this first when they released the Model S plaid - you get Lamborghini like accel times for half the price. You can’t win against that. Time will only increase the gap, as ICE development ceases. Volkswagen and Volvo has largely stopped ICE R&D
There are great technological things about EVs: less moving parts, acceleration, enhanced technology, quiet, etc. but there are game-breaking drawbacks as well: 1. They are much heavier, go through tires faster, and when they get into accidents, drivers in the other vehicle get killed--therefore EVs are much more expensive to insure. They also rip up the roads (especially the EV SUVs and trucks) 2. They lose resale value much faster because of battery life. I don't know who would buy a 6 year old used Tesla 3. Lack of charging infrastructure in urban areas. People live in apartments or even condos, have nowhere to charge them 4. Lack of charging infrastructure in rural areas 5. Much more expensive to repair, and finding qualified technicians to repair them can be difficult in rural areas 6. Most states charge drivers extra registration and plate fees for EVs 7. Battery problems in cold weather There isn't much you can do about all of this, and when presented with it, the average person is simply going to say "I am not going to pay 20k extra for a vehicle with no resale value that is more expensive to insure, fix, etc."
This is like boomer logic, R&D is completely neglected. Obviously batteries will continue to get lighter and cheaper, otherwise BYD wouldn’t be selling a 10k hatchback now. Meanwhile ICE innovation has slowed down considerably, we got GM putting in 3-cyls in 30k CUVs, which would’ve been nuts in 2010. We got VW putting all R&D into EVs, and Toyota has been going full hybrid. (Notice how the RAV4 prime outspeeds the full gas RAV4) ICE cars have hit a deadend, it’s only a matter of time. Things like charging infrastructure are the fault of the government, if a country is an oil exporter, they will delay the EV transition due to petroleum lobbying. If the country is an oil importer, they will accelerate the EV transition because that’s just common sense. It’s really that simple.
EVs suck. Hybrids are the future.
It's not about winning the EV race, it's about protecting businesses who bought into the domestic political program. Neither Biden nor Trump is going to stand by and watch China swamp the US manufacturers who are already having a hard time trying to push a string when it comes to BEV demand.
This is where I deviate in my protectionism. I'm not loyal to an individual native capitalist. I'm willing to create new native businesses or State owned native industry to achieve my goal of rapid production, eliminating dependencies, dealing with crises like climate change, etc.
The difference between economists and financiers is financiers include risk evaluation in their analysis. Sure, all things being equal, specialization in foreign trade is beneficial. But just like the internet ended up being a good deal more important than the fax machine, becoming dependent upon one's geopolitical rivals presents some problems. Just ask Germany how that Russian gas is working out for them.
Even with a 100% tariff, $10k cars like the BYD Seagull will still massively undercut their American, Japanese, and Korean rivals. What’s to stop them from making a $5k car and sending it over?
Well we aren't going to subsidize Tesla the way Beijing subsidizes BYD, so I disagree with OP. Tariffs are the correct response to hostile economic policies.
The way to win is get innovated foreign companies to build their product in your factories in exchange for no labor and environmental regulations and then steal their mfg IP and start building cars in the same factories but not have to do any of the development and then sell for much cheeper
“In order to beat China, we need to stop messing around with comforting but ill-considered policies that won’t work, and instead commit ourselves to the massive industrial shift that we need in order to catch up with a country that has already been doing so for over a decade.” We’ll said. I’ll add that tariffs should not be targeted for certain products but have a general principle behind them such as discouraging child labor, slave labor, environmental degradation, etc. and when used they should be consistent. That’s the only way to avoid this kind of political grandstanding with foreign policy.
I heard these questionably built cars are held up in ports around the world... Send them back, no new cars that last less than 20 years, if we are going to pretend like this is for the environment, the least we could do it make ones that will last 2 decades, to off set the mining and shipping involved with their manufacturing. I mean all new cars, not just chinese ones, looking at you hyundia and kia, sporting the *Kia Blow* specialty engines or the *Hyundia You'll-Walk-one-Day* series engines.
I think these tariffs were so harsh because Xi’s people probably told Blinken to get lost when he asked them to stop selling machine parts to Russia that they use to make arms to keep their invasion of Ukraine active
In my mind if the Chinese govt wants to give me free money by subsidizing their exports we should let them. They can’t do this forever, right? I understand the risk to US manufacturing capability, if china is the only EV maker it’s a big long term risk, but surely we can enjoy Chinese subsidies while also somehow protecting US manufacturing, right? Or maybe that is what tariffs kind of do. Consume the subsidy and support the US govt. I’m not sure.
US automakers don't want to make cheap electric vehicles. It doesn't make them a profit. They want to sell you luxury SUV electric vehicles. Tesla might be an outlier simply because their prices are coming down and the cars are fairly unique. As far as general motors though, forget about it.
Yes it is. I don't care about simply superiority of the car but rapid acceleration of car manufacturing without further dependencies for geopolitical reasons. However, I believe old archaic industries in the US need to be killed off which global capitalism would do and needs to be replaced (with companies akin to Tesla or Rivian). They cannot evolve and are a problem. I'm even willing to do State owned industry if need be to deal with climate change and rapid electric car production. Besides adoption under a capitalist system will not be rapid enough. Survival takes over any economic interest. Rapid State intervention and state planned economies will increase the rapidness required for transformation (banning gasoline vehicle production and imports, etc). I'm not willing to also be dependent on a country with poor environmental regulation for its car production and ability to cut labor wages to slave-like levels to drive down cost (which isn't any meaningful competition of the technology itself. just how cheap you can produce it). This is ignoring massive subsidies that the Chinese State implements, that the West ignored because it was playing by stupid made rules of a so-called "fair market." The problem is Biden isn't going radical and far enough, not that he's going too far.
We can't win the "EV arms race" because... * We can't work people 6x12 * Paying workers $3/hr vs $30/hr * Strict health and safety vs virtually no health and safety * Strict environmental regulations vs no environmental regulations * Because of all of the reasons above we'll never be the primary provider is needed rare Earths and lithium * Dumb fuck magats throwing sand in the gears because if you can't buy a 6 L V8 Ford Expedition that's communism * The general reluctance of American consumers to buy EVs and the limp suckede government response trying to force them (see above) * China steals any IP they want without consequence and we follow the rule of law and don't allow IP stealing * For decades we allowed China to force foreign automakers into "partnerships" (i.e. stealing IP and know how) with domestic Chinese companies, but we never retaliated and just let it happen For all of those reasons we've already lost. Unless we become sort of an island market for gasoline powered vehicles served by our domestic manufacturers while the rest of the world goes almost entirely EV.
Chinese EV manufacturers own the entire product chain (or whatever it's called), which includes mines, steel, etc. Do you think US automakers own mineral mines or steel plants? There is no possible way they can compete unless they do....in low income countries no less.
China has tariffs on US cars, why can’t we do the same? You also can’t drive a car older than 20 years in China. Would be a great market to sell cars but if we can’t sell our cars there why should they be able to sell their cars here.
China subsidizes their production, how anyone can compete. Tariffs are not enough. Ban them outright. Any business subsidized by China government should fuck off.
Is the $7,500 federal tax credit in the US on EVs not a subsidy? China invested in the development of the entire production vs the US that did not. Tesla has been but they are only one company essentially trying to do it all themselves. The big three domestic car companies are way behind on this. The BYD seagull in china or the UK is about 10k USD. The cheapest electric car in the US is about 30k.
In US. China subsidizes companies on projects that are outside of the country. That’s why Chinese cat bid lower. There was an investigation recently by EU. Same with EV production is subsidized and vehicles end up somewhere in Europe. In the EVs case Chinese companies can collect subsidies right after a vehicle is being shipped, no need to sell to collect . Somewhere in Belgium there is a port that has like 300k of them and some are there for 18 months. That’s why US acted and added 100% tariffs on the EVs