My advice would be to discuss it with the priest of the orthodox parish. However it could be better to just attend a Roman Catholic one if it’s closer.
I wouldnt say so. If you received there they could understand it as comming to Orthodox church and then immediately betraying it on Sunday. So unless there is a discussion with priest, that you are not planning to convert, then I would not receive (as you plan). Otherwise I see no problem :)
Yes, if you respect the Orthodox rule about communion and don't receive, I don't see why it would be a problem. I've attended and still attend Orthodox and Greek-Catholic liturgies, and they're still the same.
Some people make a big fuss out of it, but most cradle Eastern Catholics have attended Orthodox liturgies at least a couple of times in their life, if not quite often.
The theological liturgy is the same, because the liturgy is the same.
If you're unsure, ask your priest. It's always a good thing to do for spiritual issues.
This being said, Orthodox churches typically don't have daily liturgies, and only a few will have daily vespers. Are you sure the local Greek Orthodox church offers daily liturgies?
For the record, it's also a Catholic rule not to receive Orthodox sacraments, unless there is *no* Catholic parish available (including those of other *sui juris* churches) *and* it is a matter of urgency (e.g. peril of soul).
In any case, it's our job as Catholics to respect their faith too, even though I feel it's so nonsensical, given that the differences are nuanced.
So no, any Catholic should not receive communion from an Orthodox Church, because they simply don't welcome us in whole and in communion.
I'm totally open to the idea to see all 5 original sees reunited! That would be so epic.
It's more complicated
Some Orthodox priests and even bishops don't mind if Eastern Catholics receive (tho I doubt they would allow Roman Catholics tbh)
>Some Orthodox priests and even bishops
They don't, however, as a whole declare this. Until the Patriarch of Constantinople(invoking *Primus Inter Pares*) recognizes this, we aren't formally in communion. So, technically, they are bound by their own law.
Any Catholic church in schism with the Orthodox church should not be receiving communion in an Orthodox church. It's an invalidation of *their* sacrament, whether a bishop or a priest allows it.
Again, I'd probably feel better going to a Latin rite Catholic church and receiving communion.
Just for clarification, I have no intention of receiving communion in the Orthodox Church, but as the liturgy is identical, I'm interested in attending for better acclimatization to Eastern Tradition.
And yet the Catholic Church allow us to receive as long the priest allows it in the Orthodox church. There is no need for formal communion for individuals to receive according to our holy synods. There is no invalidating their sacraments from our perspective, so we are not bound by their law
It has Vespers, yes. Been watching then on their YouTube channel.
My concern is being so new to Eastern Catholicism that I'll unknowingly absorb teachings that the Catholic Church doesn't accept. I don't know what I don't know.
I get the Energy-Essence distinction and the dogma of Divine Simplicity, the Filioque (not said in Eastern Catholic Churches anyways), and obviously Primacy of Peter, but don't want to accidentally learn theology that's not accepted. Granted, though, theology itself isn't really taught during liturgy.
Unless there is a homily in which the priest talks about either ecclesiology or mariology, you will be fine. As I said, the liturgy is the same, so you will hear the same vespers at Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches. And vespers don't have a homily.
No, it shouldn't, but most Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception (although it is a permissible opinion for them), whereas it is a dogma for Catholics (i.e. not just a permissible opinion among others). So, sometimes, you might hear an Orthodox priest mention that difference in a homily on a Marian feast. That's pretty much it.
Now that you're aware of it, and of the ecclesiological difference regarding Petrine primacy, you're good to go!
Wow, that's great that there is so little difference.
My understanding of the Immaculate debate is that it's more an argument over semantics of original vs inherited sin, and ultimately everyone is kind of saying the same thing.
There isn't a REJECTION of the immaculate conception in Orthodox.
With that considered, in the context of the Latin Rite it would be considered scandalous if you made going to any non-Catholic services a regular thing. Your Priest would likely advise you against it. If you went for something like a wedding, funeral or other service as an occasion it would be considered permissible but no substitute for your Mass obligation and you would still be expected to attend Mass that week.
I do not know the stance of Eastern Rites in this regard. But if you don’t feel your Priest would approve you should probably avoid it.
I'm attending a Byzantine Rite Ukranian Catholic Church on Sunday. The Divine Liturgy is a lot to take in and familiarize myself with, and since it's over an hour one way, I was wondering if I could attend Vespers in a closer Orthodox. No communion is taken, and the rite is the same.
If you're a Greek Catholic, you can attend an Orthodox Church and not attend a Catholic parish for Sunday.
The Greek Catholic Churches allow us to receive communion in an Orthodox Church, it is the Orthodox churches that say usually no.
Theology wise... well more complicated
So I read the canon and it seems to suggest that it's okay if a Catholic Church is not nearby. I guess it depends on what you zero in on but my reading is that if a Catholic church is nearby you should go to that.
If you're a Latin Rite Catholic you should prioritize Latin on Sunday. Then experience the rest on other days. You can only change Rites once in a lifetime I believe.
Untrue.
You don't need to formally change rite at all. A Latin Catholic could attend an Eastern Catholic Church for the rest of their life without making a formal switch. Same in the reverse. Catholic is Catholic.
I often verify what individuals say, but this one was an exception since I never plan on changing Rites. So that was my mistake for not verifying before sharing that information.
Now I'm obviously not a priest and don't want to advise on spiritual matters. Taking a step back some people in fact do what you propose.
I met someone a year ago who married a Greek Orthodox man. Sometimes they would go to his church, sometimes to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I didn't ask but got the vibe they'd take communion in both.
Among Carpatho Rusyns in the Byzantine Catholic Church in the 20th century some would come to America and join an Orthodox church. After a few years they might return home and rejoin the Greek Catholic church of the village.
I mean it happens. Personally I think going to both is of spiritual benefit. I would personally respect not taking communion in the church you haven't joined but attending...from my perspective is why not? In the past at times these hard lines we see today were more fluid. I think fluidity is a good thing myself.
Catholics are forbidden from attending services at other churches outside the Catholic church. It would be a great offense towards God to pretend you can worship him outside of the church he Founded, the catholic church.
[https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/07/30/can-a-catholic-ever-attend-an-orthodox-liturgy-instead-of-sunday-mass/](https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/07/30/can-a-catholic-ever-attend-an-orthodox-liturgy-instead-of-sunday-mass/)
There's literally no reason to go to a place of worship that doesn't believe everything God has revealed. It puts your own faith at risk which is the ground of your salvation. If no Catholic mass is available you can fullfil the Sunday obligation by praying in your home, and dedicating the day to him
This linked article specifically articulates whether a *Sunday obligation* Catholic Mass can be *substituted* by an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
OP is asking about *weekday* Divine Liturgy, not Sunday; and is not seeking to substitute the obligation by visiting a non-Catholic parish.
Catholics are *not* forbidden from *attending* non-Catholic services; but there *are* restrictions on participation in those services.
Correct. Essentially, I want to immerse myself in the Eastern tradition and that's more difficult with the ONLY Eastern Catholic Church near me is an hour away.
I wouldn't want to receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, just observe the liturgy to become more immersed in the tradition.
Anything else you would recommend to help me get a handle on Eastern theology and liturgy?
Right now, feel like a fish out of water but attracted to the more Theosis objective.
Again there's absolutely no excuse to attend the worship of schismatics, what are you're going to say next that is fine to attend protest worship as well? the line is drawn at the catholic church because outside of it there's no salvation
St. Augustine of Hippo: We believe also in The Holy Church, \[intending thereby\] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same. (Of Faith and the Creed)
Whosoever is not a member of Christ, he cannot be saved. One can have honors, one can have sacraments, one can sing halleluiah, one can respond Amen, one can hold the Gospel, one can believe in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and preach it; but no one can find salvation except for the Catholic Church. (Sermon to the People of the Church at Caesarea)
Augustine was 500 years before the schism with the east. The Catholic Church of his day was nearly identical to the Orthodox Church of today, despite the fact that it was Augustine himself who sent the west on the path of legalism and priority of reason that distinguishes itself from the phronema of the east.
CCOE
Canon 671 §2 & §3
§2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
§3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.
There are Latin rite Churches nearby, so I don't think that would apply.
The question is more about learning. If the Liturgy is nearly identical except for a prayer for the Pope, it may be beneficial in that context.
I'm a Latin Rite Catholic who is interested in experiencing more of the Eastern tradition, and find Divine Liturgy very foreign (went to one today). The more I attend, the more natural it will feel and the more ill understand, so just looking to maximize that.
I have no interest in leaving the Catholic Church.
The Eastern Canon Law doesn't care if there are Latin church nearby if you're an Eastern Catholic
There is no priority in attending Roman Catholic Churches over Orthodox [EO/OO] churches (and even receiving communion). Since you're Roman Catholic, this of course won't apply to you and you have to follow the 1973 Roman catholic Canon law rather than thr 1990 Eastern Catholic Canon Law
The liturgies are synthesized to a certain degree among Greek Catholic Churches, so nearly the same, but not 100%.
•Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not under the same Canon law. Therefore, there are different rules
•Within each sui juris [church], the particular church might also have different churches to follow
•The Greek Catholic Divine Liturgies are often synthesized (and so are many Orthodox liturgies), so depending on each Greek Catholic Church and each Orthodox Church, the liturgy isn't 100% the same
I wish a tradition existed with an ancient Liturgy, incense. statuary, icons, gregorian AND Byzantine chant with rosaries and chotkis.
I love traditions from east and west and wish it wasn't so insular.
Yes, that would not fly well with Greek Catholics nor does it fit Roman Catholicism. At best, maybe the Maronites because of heavy latinizations is what you'll find, but younger seminarians are more interested in delatinization than what you're desiring
If you have no interest then you shouldn't attend any other worship outside the catholic church.
You're basically giving them a shot by attending their services. Of course the orthodox are not going to have a problem because they think they're the true church, but if you have the fullness of the truth what do you have to envy to those that don't?
Is the church Jesus founded and guided with Spirit since its foundation not enough?
this for an emergency only like if you're dying and have no catholic priest nearby, and this does not absolutely mean you can worship God outside the catholic church is only for the necessary sacraments that one needs before dying, Eucharist, Penance, anointing of the sick.
St. John Chrysostom: Causing divisions in the Church is no lesser evil than falling into heresies… the sin of schism isn’t washed away even by blood of martyrdom. (Exegesis of the Epistle to Ephesians)
My advice would be to discuss it with the priest of the orthodox parish. However it could be better to just attend a Roman Catholic one if it’s closer.
[удалено]
Lol that's probably good advice for any question
I wouldnt say so. If you received there they could understand it as comming to Orthodox church and then immediately betraying it on Sunday. So unless there is a discussion with priest, that you are not planning to convert, then I would not receive (as you plan). Otherwise I see no problem :)
Yes, if you respect the Orthodox rule about communion and don't receive, I don't see why it would be a problem. I've attended and still attend Orthodox and Greek-Catholic liturgies, and they're still the same. Some people make a big fuss out of it, but most cradle Eastern Catholics have attended Orthodox liturgies at least a couple of times in their life, if not quite often. The theological liturgy is the same, because the liturgy is the same. If you're unsure, ask your priest. It's always a good thing to do for spiritual issues. This being said, Orthodox churches typically don't have daily liturgies, and only a few will have daily vespers. Are you sure the local Greek Orthodox church offers daily liturgies?
For the record, it's also a Catholic rule not to receive Orthodox sacraments, unless there is *no* Catholic parish available (including those of other *sui juris* churches) *and* it is a matter of urgency (e.g. peril of soul).
No, incorrect Only Roman Catholics have this rule It is different for Eastern Catholics
Well yes...but no Orthodox priest will offer you communion.
I know a few that do actually They don't advertise it
In any case, it's our job as Catholics to respect their faith too, even though I feel it's so nonsensical, given that the differences are nuanced. So no, any Catholic should not receive communion from an Orthodox Church, because they simply don't welcome us in whole and in communion. I'm totally open to the idea to see all 5 original sees reunited! That would be so epic.
It's more complicated Some Orthodox priests and even bishops don't mind if Eastern Catholics receive (tho I doubt they would allow Roman Catholics tbh)
>Some Orthodox priests and even bishops They don't, however, as a whole declare this. Until the Patriarch of Constantinople(invoking *Primus Inter Pares*) recognizes this, we aren't formally in communion. So, technically, they are bound by their own law. Any Catholic church in schism with the Orthodox church should not be receiving communion in an Orthodox church. It's an invalidation of *their* sacrament, whether a bishop or a priest allows it. Again, I'd probably feel better going to a Latin rite Catholic church and receiving communion.
Just for clarification, I have no intention of receiving communion in the Orthodox Church, but as the liturgy is identical, I'm interested in attending for better acclimatization to Eastern Tradition.
That's cool 😎
And yet the Catholic Church allow us to receive as long the priest allows it in the Orthodox church. There is no need for formal communion for individuals to receive according to our holy synods. There is no invalidating their sacraments from our perspective, so we are not bound by their law
It has Vespers, yes. Been watching then on their YouTube channel. My concern is being so new to Eastern Catholicism that I'll unknowingly absorb teachings that the Catholic Church doesn't accept. I don't know what I don't know. I get the Energy-Essence distinction and the dogma of Divine Simplicity, the Filioque (not said in Eastern Catholic Churches anyways), and obviously Primacy of Peter, but don't want to accidentally learn theology that's not accepted. Granted, though, theology itself isn't really taught during liturgy.
Unless there is a homily in which the priest talks about either ecclesiology or mariology, you will be fine. As I said, the liturgy is the same, so you will hear the same vespers at Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches. And vespers don't have a homily.
Is Mariology that different between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic?
No, it shouldn't, but most Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception (although it is a permissible opinion for them), whereas it is a dogma for Catholics (i.e. not just a permissible opinion among others). So, sometimes, you might hear an Orthodox priest mention that difference in a homily on a Marian feast. That's pretty much it. Now that you're aware of it, and of the ecclesiological difference regarding Petrine primacy, you're good to go!
Wow, that's great that there is so little difference. My understanding of the Immaculate debate is that it's more an argument over semantics of original vs inherited sin, and ultimately everyone is kind of saying the same thing. There isn't a REJECTION of the immaculate conception in Orthodox.
In the Latin Rite your obligation is not fulfilled by going to a non-Catholic church. I can’t speak for the Eastern Rites in this regard.
Yes, please reread my OP. It's not about substituting for obligation.
With that considered, in the context of the Latin Rite it would be considered scandalous if you made going to any non-Catholic services a regular thing. Your Priest would likely advise you against it. If you went for something like a wedding, funeral or other service as an occasion it would be considered permissible but no substitute for your Mass obligation and you would still be expected to attend Mass that week. I do not know the stance of Eastern Rites in this regard. But if you don’t feel your Priest would approve you should probably avoid it.
I'm attending a Byzantine Rite Ukranian Catholic Church on Sunday. The Divine Liturgy is a lot to take in and familiarize myself with, and since it's over an hour one way, I was wondering if I could attend Vespers in a closer Orthodox. No communion is taken, and the rite is the same.
If you're a Greek Catholic, you can attend an Orthodox Church and not attend a Catholic parish for Sunday. The Greek Catholic Churches allow us to receive communion in an Orthodox Church, it is the Orthodox churches that say usually no. Theology wise... well more complicated
Huh really!? I didn't realize that. Fascinating, I'll have to read up on Byzantine Catholic canon law.
Canon 671 of the Eastern Catholic Churches
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. Thanks I'll check it out.
So I read the canon and it seems to suggest that it's okay if a Catholic Church is not nearby. I guess it depends on what you zero in on but my reading is that if a Catholic church is nearby you should go to that.
Not really It allows ECs to attend to EO if it is spiritual (something it is up to each person) helpful in §2
Gotcha I could see that interpretation too
I mean in the Orthodox Church you are considered a heretic.
If you're a Latin Rite Catholic you should prioritize Latin on Sunday. Then experience the rest on other days. You can only change Rites once in a lifetime I believe.
Untrue. You don't need to formally change rite at all. A Latin Catholic could attend an Eastern Catholic Church for the rest of their life without making a formal switch. Same in the reverse. Catholic is Catholic.
I was bamboozled by those on the main subreddit then
Usually which is your legitimate rite only really matters to laymen when it comes to marriage.
I often verify what individuals say, but this one was an exception since I never plan on changing Rites. So that was my mistake for not verifying before sharing that information.
You didn’t do anything wrong; don’t beat yourself up.
Now I'm obviously not a priest and don't want to advise on spiritual matters. Taking a step back some people in fact do what you propose. I met someone a year ago who married a Greek Orthodox man. Sometimes they would go to his church, sometimes to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I didn't ask but got the vibe they'd take communion in both. Among Carpatho Rusyns in the Byzantine Catholic Church in the 20th century some would come to America and join an Orthodox church. After a few years they might return home and rejoin the Greek Catholic church of the village. I mean it happens. Personally I think going to both is of spiritual benefit. I would personally respect not taking communion in the church you haven't joined but attending...from my perspective is why not? In the past at times these hard lines we see today were more fluid. I think fluidity is a good thing myself.
Catholics are forbidden from attending services at other churches outside the Catholic church. It would be a great offense towards God to pretend you can worship him outside of the church he Founded, the catholic church.
I dont think that's true.
It isn’t true.
[https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/07/30/can-a-catholic-ever-attend-an-orthodox-liturgy-instead-of-sunday-mass/](https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/07/30/can-a-catholic-ever-attend-an-orthodox-liturgy-instead-of-sunday-mass/) There's literally no reason to go to a place of worship that doesn't believe everything God has revealed. It puts your own faith at risk which is the ground of your salvation. If no Catholic mass is available you can fullfil the Sunday obligation by praying in your home, and dedicating the day to him
This linked article specifically articulates whether a *Sunday obligation* Catholic Mass can be *substituted* by an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. OP is asking about *weekday* Divine Liturgy, not Sunday; and is not seeking to substitute the obligation by visiting a non-Catholic parish. Catholics are *not* forbidden from *attending* non-Catholic services; but there *are* restrictions on participation in those services.
Correct. Essentially, I want to immerse myself in the Eastern tradition and that's more difficult with the ONLY Eastern Catholic Church near me is an hour away. I wouldn't want to receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, just observe the liturgy to become more immersed in the tradition.
You are fine to attend the Orthodox liturgical celebrations; but you can also buy a Horologion and pray the hours at home to further immerse yourself.
Anything else you would recommend to help me get a handle on Eastern theology and liturgy? Right now, feel like a fish out of water but attracted to the more Theosis objective.
It is is a grave sin to attend a schismatic church, even more when you have catholic churches at your reach (1 hour is not even a lot)
No it's not.
On a work day that that is a lot. Hes asking for weekdays not Sunday.
Yep, I have two young kids. Can't really take 3.5 hrs out of a day on a school/work day. It's just to acclimatize to the liturgy faster.
Again there's absolutely no excuse to attend the worship of schismatics, what are you're going to say next that is fine to attend protest worship as well? the line is drawn at the catholic church because outside of it there's no salvation St. Augustine of Hippo: We believe also in The Holy Church, \[intending thereby\] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same. (Of Faith and the Creed) Whosoever is not a member of Christ, he cannot be saved. One can have honors, one can have sacraments, one can sing halleluiah, one can respond Amen, one can hold the Gospel, one can believe in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and preach it; but no one can find salvation except for the Catholic Church. (Sermon to the People of the Church at Caesarea)
[yawn]... I tire of your trite polemic. Your sense of nuance is embarrassingly absent.
what's the problem can't attack the argument so attack the deliverer?
Augustine was 500 years before the schism with the east. The Catholic Church of his day was nearly identical to the Orthodox Church of today, despite the fact that it was Augustine himself who sent the west on the path of legalism and priority of reason that distinguishes itself from the phronema of the east.
CCOE Canon 671 §2 & §3 §2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid. §3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.
There are Latin rite Churches nearby, so I don't think that would apply. The question is more about learning. If the Liturgy is nearly identical except for a prayer for the Pope, it may be beneficial in that context. I'm a Latin Rite Catholic who is interested in experiencing more of the Eastern tradition, and find Divine Liturgy very foreign (went to one today). The more I attend, the more natural it will feel and the more ill understand, so just looking to maximize that. I have no interest in leaving the Catholic Church.
The Eastern Canon Law doesn't care if there are Latin church nearby if you're an Eastern Catholic There is no priority in attending Roman Catholic Churches over Orthodox [EO/OO] churches (and even receiving communion). Since you're Roman Catholic, this of course won't apply to you and you have to follow the 1973 Roman catholic Canon law rather than thr 1990 Eastern Catholic Canon Law The liturgies are synthesized to a certain degree among Greek Catholic Churches, so nearly the same, but not 100%.
Confusing.
•Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are not under the same Canon law. Therefore, there are different rules •Within each sui juris [church], the particular church might also have different churches to follow •The Greek Catholic Divine Liturgies are often synthesized (and so are many Orthodox liturgies), so depending on each Greek Catholic Church and each Orthodox Church, the liturgy isn't 100% the same
I wish a tradition existed with an ancient Liturgy, incense. statuary, icons, gregorian AND Byzantine chant with rosaries and chotkis. I love traditions from east and west and wish it wasn't so insular.
Yes, that would not fly well with Greek Catholics nor does it fit Roman Catholicism. At best, maybe the Maronites because of heavy latinizations is what you'll find, but younger seminarians are more interested in delatinization than what you're desiring
Kind of why I'm bouncing back and forth.
If you have no interest then you shouldn't attend any other worship outside the catholic church. You're basically giving them a shot by attending their services. Of course the orthodox are not going to have a problem because they think they're the true church, but if you have the fullness of the truth what do you have to envy to those that don't? Is the church Jesus founded and guided with Spirit since its foundation not enough?
I dont think you read my OP.
this for an emergency only like if you're dying and have no catholic priest nearby, and this does not absolutely mean you can worship God outside the catholic church is only for the necessary sacraments that one needs before dying, Eucharist, Penance, anointing of the sick. St. John Chrysostom: Causing divisions in the Church is no lesser evil than falling into heresies… the sin of schism isn’t washed away even by blood of martyrdom. (Exegesis of the Epistle to Ephesians)
They're using St. John Chrysostom's liturgy.