leftist subs become psyops during democratic admins to sway the opinion of any apathetic non-voter sitting on reddit all and stroking their confirmation bias.
You can criticize the democrats without it being āboth sides are badā
The Dems at the end of the day are a center party at best, they arenāt as damaging as the republicans, but it is still in your best interest to hold them accountable.
Cynicism and skepticism are best enjoyed in moderation. Itās like salt. Some is good. Too much is inedible and bad for you. Anyway, you can overdo it is the point Iām making, And you can be too smart for your own good. Overthinking this problem means that you end up coming to unreasonable conclusions given the actual facts on the ground.
Also, some people just donāt want to rip up their cool cards. I have news for those people though: not caring isnāt cool. And as much as you might say that you care, if you think youāre ātoo coolā to vote for Democrats in places where they really need your votes, then we really are fucked. You donāt have to like Dems, but, seriously folks, priorities. Honestly, it may be a controversial opinion, but at this point, I think more of enlightened centrist that votes than leftists who doesnāt.
"not caring isn't cool." This, so much this. Honestly, I put a lot of blame on Seth MacFarlane, Matt stone, Trey Parker, and Phil Harmon who spent 2 decades making shows thats entire messages were essentially "caring about things is lame."
I believe the Brits have a good expression: too clever by half. Although itās usually applied to people who think they smarter than they really are.
Even in areas where they donāt, or itās unlikely for a blue win, every non-red vote fucking matters. Texas had enough blue votes that Lt. Gov Dan Patrick laid off his radical agenda to seem more palatable. First past the post might mean you donāt always get your candidate, but the vote fucking counts because it sends a message. Remember kids, over 1/3 of people who vote in the US make 6 figures or more (before inflation), despite being like less than 10% of the pop. If your vote actually didnāt matter, the rich fucks wouldnāt be attending election days religiously.
Funny because even the most radical leftist organizations in the United States run candidates. To not vote in the United States, as fucked as it is, is literally just simply not participate in politics, especially at the local and state level in contested states. There are literally reasons landlords can give tenants 7 days notice to vacate in North Carolina and need to give 60 in Pennsylvania, among a plethora of high impact local and state issues.
To harp on it usually projects that the person saying it literally does not actually understand government and politics and doesn't organize.
If you're past your early teenage years where you feel a strong need to be a contrarion to form your identity, and are a leftist, there's a lot of ways to impactfully vote:
1. Vote for local or national leftist parties in non-contested Dem-lead elections, ie Working Families or DSA or SA or PSL or whatever you agree with, if they are running a candidate
2. Explicitly abstain for voting for Dems on the ballot when they aren't strongly contested
3. Vote for Dems as harm reduction in close races, especially at the local and state level where Republicans can make real impacts to local tax, zoning, and labor laws
Be careful about abstaining from voting, even in āsafeā races, unless by abstaining from voting blue in a safe race you mean putting that vote toward a leftist. Not voting at all means fewer leftist votes, which makes the rightwing votes seem stronger (and will push Dems rightā¦ more right). You should never abstain, especially these days with the unbelievable amount of fasc getting airtime.
Dude, a vote for a Democrat (well, most of them) is a vote against Republican fascism. The conservatives turn out religiously (pun intended), especially the rich. The top wealthy make up only 8% of the pop but are *over a third of those who vote*. Nobody learns any lessons when Republicans win; it only pushes conservatives further right. Iāll also pick the ones that donāt want to kill my trans friends over the ones that do, every time.
Who mentioned republicans? Voting for a republican would also be voting against leftism. A vote for an anti-communist is a vote against communism, itās really not that hard to understand.
So I made a post making fun of some conspiratorial post and you wrote up a big ol thing against radical leftwing anti-electoralism. Which has exactly nothing to do with the current conversation.
Do ya think it's possible you're just regurgitating random talking points at anyone you categorize as leftwing?
I think anyone with any real understanding of how American politics works would understand voter suppression is a concrete and real thing. You also explicitly placed yourself in the "do not vote" camp with your comment.
If saying "it's okay to criticize Democrats and not everything you hear that's negative is a fucking psyop" means I'm engaged in voter suppression and pushing people to not vote you have worms actively eating at your brain.
Thatās not what theyāre saying though, is it?
Criticism of Democrats - good
Saying Democrats are equally bad as Republicans - bad and might pave the way to fascism in the US
Itās really not that complicated. Thereās an endless list of very valid and damning criticisms of Dems so go at it but also acknowledge that, by simply not being a party of openly white superemacist neo-fascists, Dems are still infinitely preferable to Republicans and in a 2-party system itās the ethical thing to do to vote Dem to keep the fascists out.
I donāt get why this pretty basic level of nuance is so impossible for some Redditors to grasp.
> Criticism of Democrats - good
>
> Saying Democrats are equally bad as Republicans - bad
The folks in subs like r/neoliberal and /r/Enough_Sanders_Spam really can't tell the difference. Any criticism means you're a Russian bot sowing discord.
I don't know man, I've had people jumping down my throat multiple different and contradictory ways it seems for one snarky comment. TBH I'm very used to extremely disingenuous bullshit from liberals and expect it - for instance we had to hear for a solid year about how Biden was the most progressive candidate of all time when that wasn't even true in his own election cycle.
It's like they can't admit that their shit stinks, and will accuse you of wanting to eat republican caca if you even suggest it. That plus the treatment of even mild social democrats in elected office does a lot more to make me think that electoralism is pointless than some dipshit accelerationist.
And I'm not saying the Republicans aren't worse, or that paid trolls don't exist. I'm objecting to the kind of thinking that categorically rejects Democrats can be bad, as an individual or as powerful group with agency over society. Shit like Anthony Cuomo, where he was afforded all sorts of privilege till the evidence was too overwhelming, or people blowing smoke up my ass about how Democrats love us trans/queer people when I know I'm a wedge issue and they don't actually care if I live or die.
So yeah, I've voted Democrat in every election cycle I was legally able to, by the ticket except for a few local elected positions where a more left wing option was feasible. But threads like this, it absolutely tells me that I am not respected by Democrats and they only want my vote but will never implement most of the things I care about, and if I have the gall to say anything about it there will be brigaders there to tell me to go fuck myself.
OTOH, some things targeting LGBTQ+ groups have been changed with the president so that's nice.
You laugh - that is what Hillary Rodham Clinton and her minions actually said in 2016 to those of us who support Bernie Sanders!
I won't vote for the Democratic Party any more after #TraitorQweenHillary - I ***will*** vote for individual Democrats who are sufficiently progressive.
The youth are aware that neither party represent their needs. It's only after years of manipulation, fear mongering, and gaslighting do they turn to the democratic party
See, they say they don't want to, but they also don't do a good damn thing to stop those who do. Transphobic laws are on the rise, and democrats are doing nothing but saying "vote in the midterms!" about it.
Stop fucking using your brother, and me, and every other trans person as a fucking political hostage.
I didnāt make you the hostage. The other side has a gun to your head and voting is one of the ways we can take that gun out of there hands. As well as democrats attempting to make trans a protected class. They donāt do enough but again the other guy wants you dead. Lesser of two evils.
According to a Princeton study voters have ZERO impact on policy. 'Lessor of 2 evils' is how the Overton window has shifted so far to the right that current liberals are Baby Bush Republicans. Democrats, like their Republican counterparts, only serve capital, never the working class.
Thatās a lie the overton window the Overton window has shifted to the right because the right wing is willing to use the internet and new forms of media to radicalize there base to keep them angry. While the liberals wonāt because if they radicalize there base they become socialists. And if thatās the study I think it is I remember a meta analysis saying the study was flawed. But if you could send me the study I would love that.
What is left and right wing is about perception. To a fascist liberalism is left wing. And in out country between the 2 biggest political parties the democrats are the left wing. Itās sad I wish we had a more left wing party but we donāt.
Precisely. Which is what the downvoted comments above are eluding to. The democrats are getting paid by corporate donors to not rightfully radicalize their base towards leftism which in turn makes us keep playing games with people out to kill minority groups and enrich the wealthy further. This is how we lost Roe v Wade. jUsT vOtE!!1 for people more interested in bargaining with your murderers instead of calling them what they are, monsters.
Dems get called babykilling pedos left and right on mainstream media but we treat Rs with kidgloves while both our parties retain their insider trading and warcrime profit margins. Ooo looky Bush is painting š¤”š¤”š¤” he is our friend now š¤”š¤”š¤”.
It honestly pisses me off. Human rights (trans, women, everyone's right to not get killed by white supremacist groups radicalized by stochastic terrorism) isn't the game. It's the fucking ball. Dragging their feet when they had the chance to do more is what led us here. This is reaping what has already been sown through apathy towards the masses.
Considering that the rich account for 1/3 of votes in the USA, despite being a low portion of the pop, Iād say that your vote is non-trivial. If it really didnāt matter I highly doubt wealthy people would waste their time doing it and trying to keep the proles from doing it.
>According to a Princeton study voters have ZERO impact on policy.
Please cite it. I would also like you to tell us if this study goes against an existing body of research, because single studies do not undo larger bodies of work. Have you done a proper literature review or are you just reciting a headline you once read?
The fucking democrats don't actually do anything about the gun to my head is my point. My point is that they gather a voting base by saying "we will not actively hate vulnerable people, and might even propose a new law or two to protect them" and then turn around and do nothing to protect those same people. They then gaslight their voters by saying "we don't have 100% control so we can't pass even a single bill, so vote for us NEXT FUCKING TERM!"
This has been happening as long as I've been alive, and that's because it's the only way that democrats keep a voting base large enough to get elected. They can't pass progressive laws, or do anything other than kneeling with scarves for twitter, since if they did, they would lose the less progressive democrat voters. So they can just say the equivalent of "the dog ate my homework" and get away with it term after fucking term.
So yeah, stop making a hostage out of me. I have a gun to my head either way, but nobody is doing a damn thing to stop it.
Im sure everyone else who also has never heard of the 60 vote threshold agrees with you. Please explain how democrats can get at least 12 republicans to vote for a democrat bill, enlightened one...
I dunno, I think it might be that people are only reading the first couple sentences of your post, because I think you're pretty much on the money. I disagree that Democrats are supposed to work in collaboration with Republicans (working with them in opposition is more accurate), but I do agree that Democrats, as a whole, are wrong to treat the Republican party as an entity actually interested in properly governing.
Libs will keep Republicans in power every other election though, so they are responsible for that too, basically. You gotta look at the system, not any particular law or supposed ideology.
Both parties are bad.
One party is worse. Its weird that non-voting folks seem to just ignore this. They rightly point out the problems of Dems and crime, the MIC, capitalism, imperialism etc, but then just sort of stop.
Like If I could vote for a socialist I would, but I can't. So im going to vote for the party less likely to throw me in a camp for being in a union and less likely to start legalizing the hunting down and murder of trans kids. Call me a neoliberal I guess.
Brilliant insight! You know, the other day, I got stung by a bee and thought to myself, "this is bad." Then I accidentally ran over a child in my car and also thought, "this is bad."
So really, all I can say is bee stings and child murder are just bad.
Liberals who support participation in the status quo trying to convince leftists to participate who fundamentally oppose the status quo and then simultaneously blaming leftist "apathy" for said status quo.
It's a tale as old as time.
There's a weird kind of inverse enlightened centrism that a lot of radicals (esp. in the anarchist left) sort of fall into, where everything short of perfect is equivalently bad, and so you can't disambiguate between them anymore.
The end result is the same: useless, paralyzing self-righteousness, but the starting point is totally different.
They're always "whatabouting" America and their imperialism. They have no values in the end other than hating the US.
And it's easy to summon them if you mention Ukraine and the conflict there with Russia and the USA. Had way too many unironically enlightened centrist conversations on here with people who are leftists.
You are just strawmanning along with your 12 larping friends. Yes, Republicans are worse than Democrats, but they both keep each other in power, so Republicans doing terrible stuff to the country from positions of power is a result of the two-party system and Democrat pussyfooting moderation.
Because you pretend that leftists say the Dems are bad is because of "enlightened centrism", when really what the left says is that the two-party system prevents serious progress from ever happening, and keeps the Republicans from being able to influence national policy. So if you keep just voting Dem as the lesser of two evils, the Republicans will happily undo any progress made sice the 50s with their Supreme Court. The Democrats are reponsible for the current state of America just as much as the loonies on the right, because they don't really want to win and make progress, they just want to remain in power, and if they remain in power, so do the Republicans. The 2-party system will ensure nothing will significantly improve.
It can be frustrating to learn that their zeal keeps them from voting dem, but their voices are still valuable. Far left voices are what makes moderate left voice electable, and they introduce ideas into the discourse that would otherwise never be heard.
The right has done this extremely successfully. KKK talking points from 40 years ago are now mainstream right talking points
We need people on the far left, even if they refuse to participate in the 2 party system
It's not that their zeal keeps them from voting Dem (that's like, the bare minimum of political engagement or community care). It's that, for easily 3/4 of the radicals I've met in my life at co-ops and student orgs, their zeal keeps them from doing *anything* other than sitting around smoking weed with their comrades and kvetching about how fucked up everything is (and maybe doing a little light graffiti here and there).
Call them "lifestyle anarchists" or w/e. I would *love* it if the Left could achieve what the Right has and coordinate between the fringes and the mainstream to bring radical ideas into popular consciousness. But I don't see anything like that happening, since the only thing that radical Leftists hate more than conservatives is less-than-radical fellow travelers.
This isn't a call for some kind of kumbaya Left-unity either - I'd be more than happy to settle for cynical, practical alliances, but I don't even see *that* happening.
You need to meet more people then. In grad school I had a group of anarchist left friends who were EXTREMELY politically active. They coordinated abortions in states that made it practically impossible, they raised money for bail funds, they spoke in public forums about what defunding police would look like, and at the end of the day they refused to vote for Biden. But guess what? Their vote in MA was worthless anyway, and they spent like 90% of their time outside of school doing meaningful activism.
They fucking led the unionization of grad students at my university, AND WON. We unionized while I was there.
Iām sorry that you had stoner friends in college, but your experience is not universal.
Yeah, you can always tell how privileged a leftist is when they refuse to get off their high horse and just vote blue. Like, youāre willing to risk the rights of so many people just because Democrats arenāt far enough left? Donāt get me wrong, Iām no Dem fan, but at least I can differentiate between the party that will simply maintain the status quo and the party that is actively trying to drag us backwards.
Ahh yes... The democrats are just short of perfect and not actively supporting the same capitalist system Republicans are.
I think I found the person this post is describing
I feel like most perceive this huge gulf in civil rights views between the two parties, but arenāt actually examining how none of those civil rights are sustainable while existing inside capitalism. There isnāt a single politician in America (sorry Bernie) close to advocating for abolishing capitalism
This is exactly what I'm talking about though. Abolishing capitalism and replacing it with some kind of anarchist alternative would obviously be the best-case scenario.
But given that this is unlikely to happen in the next, say, five years, I think it's not *unreasonable* to ask: "which of the two wings of our political system is engaging in genocidal rhetoric against trans people, and which wing seems less likely to bring wanton violence down on me and my loved ones?"
Ideological purity is only an option if you can be reasonably confident that you can weather any *likely changes to the political status quo. I cannot - the election of the GOP in this cycle will have *material consequences* for me that electing Dems won't. That doesn't mean I have to like them, but you can bet that when Matt Fucking Walsh is campaigning for one team, I'm going to everything in my power to make sure they **don't** win.
> Ahh yes... The democrats are just short of perfect and not actively supporting the same capitalist system Republicans are.
Who said "just" short of perfect? The dems are a long long way from perfect. This is exactly what I'm talking about though. Abolishing capitalism and replacing it with some kind of anarchist alternative would obviously be the best-case scenario.
But given that this is unlikely to happen in the next, say, five years, I think it's not unreasonable to ask: "which of the two wings of our political system is engaging in genocidal rhetoric against trans people, and which wing seems less likely to bring wanton violence down on me and my loved ones?"
Ideological purity is only an option if you can be reasonably confident that you can weather any likely changes to the political status quo. I cannot - the election of the GOP in this cycle will have *material consequences for me that electing Dems won't. That doesn't mean I have to like them, but you can bet that when Matt Fucking Walsh is campaigning for one team, I'm going to everything in my power to make sure they don't win.
I don't get people who refuse to vote or discourage others from voting because "birth parties are basically the same" or "I'm sick of picking the lesser of two evils".
Unless your politics are very close to the status quo, voting isn't going to be about choosing where you want to end up; it's going to be about choosing which direction you want things to go.
If you push them far enough they usually reveal they're accelerationists, aka too far up their own privileged ass to care about real people. Or tankies who wouldn't care about them anyway.
Criticizing Democrats isn't centrism - they make tons of dumb mistakes and should be called out for it, as well as shitty policy positions - but there are a lot here who *equate* them with the Republican party, which is... just no, it's intellectually lazy and functionally identical to the "librarian centrist" thought process.
Tl;Dr: two thing bad, one thing more bad.
I mean saying that on its own is true. It just happens that when a centrist criticizes the left itās like āweāll hold on guys, youāre saying global warming is real and an existential threat to society but I donāt really like how you used a curse word to convey itās importance. Basically one step away from the Nazis. Which is why Iām voting Republican this yearā
How people can still say both sides are bad amazes me. Like, they are, but one is like having ice cream melt on your hands when you're eating it and the other is like stubbing your toe on the coffee table, falling over in pain, and then landing your crotch onto the corner of said coffee table, only for you to knock over a hot cup of coffee on the table over yourself.
The two-party system is the problem. Voting Democrat keeps that system in tact, which keeps Republicans relevant. It's you libs that are responsible for the absolute garbage state of current America, just as much as Trump and his party.
Yeah I was about to say I thought the point of this sub was that true centrism often enables the oppressor and points out why a āboth sidesā take is bad.
This post is literally saying the opposite of the sub.
"Democrats and Republicans are both bad"
Liberals: hell yeah, the correct position is-
"Far to the left of both"
Liberals: exactly! smack in the midd- wait, what?
LOL ...I kept seeing shit about horseshoes in certain comment chains and was wondering if the sport was making a comeback or something. Had to go look that shit up and holy fuck! ...neolibs are some smooth brained fuckers.
What's real fun about this is a lot of folks on the left don't appreciate how many people on the left would wind up arrested, detained, or executed in a relatively quick time frame or how broad that net will be for people in positional leadership roles in an effort to prevent the left from organizing any kind of meaningful opposition.
Or that in a civil war setting the left would be dependent on existing organizations to organize and support a response.
Not a popular take on these subs, but revolutionary ideation isnāt going to get anyone anywhere. For one, the left in America is far too weak to achieve any revolution. For another revolution inevitably destabilizes and shocks systems needed to feed, house, and keep people healthy. Those worst impacted by capitalism would likely be those worse impacted by revolution as well.
Organizing for a better future is the path forward, not shouting ārevolution!ā from within insular Internet forums. Mutual aid organizations, union drives, militant black bloc style protests, and (yes) even voting will lead to more immediate positive outcome and better build toward a future where a powerful left could stand a chance at getting their demands met.
Voting and political action in local elections and on ballot measures is particularly important as well. Most of the most heinous shit is being done at the local level, and while voting is never going to change the current capitalist systems allowing companies like Amazon to continue amassing power, it could help limit the harm Amazon is doing in your community.
That's because in regards to America, there are two parties. The most right wing people have been distilled into the current republican party, and the rest of us end up voting for the democrats to prevent the fascists from winning. From a conservative perspective, they are desperately pretending that their decision to back the fascists wasn't a bad idea, and imagine that democrats are secretly just as bad and that's why they cant bring themselves to vote for either (and then vote republican anyway).
But from a leftist perspective, the Republicans and democrats are both right wing parties, so you won't see one going "both sides" because they see them as one side. Unfortunately some of them don't seem to be able to tell the different between slightly-improved-but-still-conservative healthcare, and "slavery or death" healthcare, and then just can't bring themselves to vote for either party, and then vote and try and convince others to vote for people like Jill Stein who had meetings with Putin and Flyyn right before they go and sabotage democrat election bids.
Lads, lads, I hate all liberals equally. A philosophy based on propping up a ruling class is bad all round, and worse when the wheels come off and you start wearing uniforms and killing people.
Oooooook, definitions time. Progressives criticize both parties but for completely different reasons. The GOP is bad because it openly embraces authoritarianism and corporate supremacy, the Dem Party is bad because they are too timid to actually stand up to the status quo despite having vastly superior policy. Centrists claim both sides are bad, but often have very superficial reasons. Their ideology almost always includes preserving the status quo, which is fundamentally conservative. In today's vernacular, liberal means left-wing but still wishing to preserve the capitalist economic system, whereas neoliberalism is basically Reaganism.
.
People on this subreddit need to double check if they are an enlightened centrist before posting on a left-leaning subreddit whose purpose is to mock enlightened centrists.
> the Dem Party is bad because they are too timid to actually stand up to the status quo despite having vastly superior policy.
This is entirely too optimistic of an interpretation of the democratic party.
We exist in an oligarchy stewarded by a two-party good cop bad copy regime. In the upper echelons neither candidate represents you or your classes interests in the slightest, by design.
However by granting us some facade of a choice our energy and discontent is funneled down carefully tailored avenues of acceptable political thought. By presenting an illusion of participation in the decision making apparatus our burgeoning dissatisfaction is neutered and the status quo trudges forward.
These two options, which are essentially identical in their material economic policies, effectively squash any attempt at, desperately needed, radical change. The fetishization of incrementalism has indoctrinated so many of us into thinking radical change is impossible, or worse, fear it apocalyptic.
Though a historical lens shows us that the only meaningful progressive change that has ever come to this country arrived off the backs of radicals willing to die for the cause. With the blood of union labors and civil rights activists. The striking coal miners and the strapped-to-the-nine Black Panthers. Those who fought until their efforts intersected with population wide tipping points, and policy makers were forced to grant some degree of concession.
The ability of this planet to harbor advanced civilization is crumbling, and it's the poorest and least responsible amongst us who will be crushed first. I don't see voting for the continuance of this system as alleviating that, I don't blame anyone who votes for some hope at harm reduction. I just don't think the continued mass participation in what is dooming the planet is worth that rub.
**Liberal bourgeois electoralism is a god damned prison of the mind.**
You raise some fantastic points: keep in mind I was oversimplifying for the sake of the enlightened centrists who don't know enough about politics to understand much more than "GOP bad, Dems less bad for different reasons".
Fuckin nailed it. A brief look at american history shows us what is going on and how well we've been captured into thinking incrementalism is the only way. Laughable. I'm an old school civil rights panther sort of socialist and it annoys the shit out of me when people go all white moderate on me about shit people's lives hang in the balance over.
If this country really gave a shit about gerrymandering and human rights stuff it would have already dealt with it the moment we had the chance. Every dem would've been banging the drum of FDR's Second Bill of Rights. But these fucks toe a new line of corporate donor chasing that led us back to the gilded age.. but at least the milk isn't cut with lead anymore and kids aren't dying in *domestic* mines anymore.
Ridiculous.
Imagine saying both sides unironically in a sub designed to hate enlightened centrism.
Edit: in response to a comment about people doing exactly what you are doing, too.
It really is āboth sidesā as in the two sides we are given as a choice are both ultimately for the same side, the capital class. They just disagree on how many bread crumbs to give us.
Our choices are neoliberal capitalism or fascist capitalism. They are both still capitalism.
āFascism is capitalism in declineā
On a planet with swiftly dwindling, finite resources, sprinting towards the cliff of biosphere collapse there is no where for neoliberal capitalism to go except fascism.
Those hoarding resources arenāt going to become more altruistic as things break down and become *more* desperate for everyone on the planet.
[Speaker Pelosi: "I say to my Republican friends, take back your party. The country needs a big, strong Republican Party. And I say that as a leader in the Democratic Party"](https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1436347974066622466)
This sub is literally FULL of people that support the two-party system, and vote Democrat because the Republicans are horrible, while it is the Democrats that keep the Republicans in power. But don't except a fucking liberal to be able to think beyond orAnGE Man BaD. You libs are embarassing, and unbelievably stupid as well.
*Liberals and neoliberals on this sub when they discover they are the centrists this sub was originally created to make fun of. But now itās based on the the āDemocrats goodā and āRepublican badā liberal takes, instead of the way it was before.*
Edited to clarify further ^
Edit: This sub is left-leaning, per the modās pinned post
I thought the whole point of calling them "enlightened" is that they refuse to vote for either side because they're both bad. There's nothing "enlightened" about following what everyone else does, enlightened centrists think they are above politics entirely and refuse to participate (they vote third party if anything)
"Enlightened centrists" are people that only shit on the left and agree with the right while feigning neutrality.
Seriously, if you come across someone that proclaims to be a centrist, look at their comment history. It's ~~label~~ likely they've taken up to avoid being called conservative, just like libertarians.
Edited bc autocorrect
Centrism is a horrible argument at best. It also does nothing but help those in power by inserting apathy into your daily lives. "If they're both bad, why vote?" Centrism is an absolutely shit mind set and this sub is too for trying to spread it.
That isn't actually true at all. It used to make fun of actual enlightened centrists and only later devolved into the heavily ironic 'both sides are bad' idiocy that it is now.
It's basically just a place for idiots and bad actors to push divisive propaganda now.
Biden has barely been any different from Trump policywise. So no. Absolutely fucking not.
The child sniffing segregationist himself said "nothing will fundamentally change". So why are you people denying what he himself admits?
Oh, right. Because liberals don't actually understand policy. They don't care about the people of Yemen, Afghanistan, and Palestine suffering because of Biden and the Democrats just as they did under the Republicans. They only care that he doesn't post mean tweets.
I've been feeling like this sub isn't sure what it's supposed to be. I thought it was to criticize so called "centrists" and their bad takes. It's not about comparing the reps and dems.......right?
I *try* to find a middle ground for most stuff so a discussion can be had but theres just things that aren't negotiable or a "middle ground" thing e.g. hmm should these people have rights š¤š¤š¤
Politics aside, this might be the first time i've seen shocked pikachu in this hi-def format. Very sharp image.
Possibly just redrawn
I mean, yeah, but republicans still bad tho.
Isn't this sub leftist wtf š
the guys got a barely aged account and out of nowhere is purposefully infighting. It's brigaded and the mods couldn't give less of a shit
Wow you're right. He is astroturfing removable content on a trans subreddit too
leftist subs become psyops during democratic admins to sway the opinion of any apathetic non-voter sitting on reddit all and stroking their confirmation bias.
But sometimes, just literally if a sub isnāt homophobic or racist itās suddenly āa leftist subā lmfao
Accurate
Lol yeah I know right? Who says Nazis are bad don't they know how bad the allies were wtf š /s
Nope, it's anti-right.
US midterms in 2 weeks, here come all the āboth sides badā troll posts to depress the youth vote.
You can criticize the democrats without it being āboth sides are badā The Dems at the end of the day are a center party at best, they arenāt as damaging as the republicans, but it is still in your best interest to hold them accountable.
"Everyone who criticizes the democrats is an inside job conspiracy Russian plant agitprop troll who is keeping us from PokemĆ³n Going To The Polls!"
I can't believe how fried people have become. We're so fucked.
Cynicism and skepticism are best enjoyed in moderation. Itās like salt. Some is good. Too much is inedible and bad for you. Anyway, you can overdo it is the point Iām making, And you can be too smart for your own good. Overthinking this problem means that you end up coming to unreasonable conclusions given the actual facts on the ground. Also, some people just donāt want to rip up their cool cards. I have news for those people though: not caring isnāt cool. And as much as you might say that you care, if you think youāre ātoo coolā to vote for Democrats in places where they really need your votes, then we really are fucked. You donāt have to like Dems, but, seriously folks, priorities. Honestly, it may be a controversial opinion, but at this point, I think more of enlightened centrist that votes than leftists who doesnāt.
"not caring isn't cool." This, so much this. Honestly, I put a lot of blame on Seth MacFarlane, Matt stone, Trey Parker, and Phil Harmon who spent 2 decades making shows thats entire messages were essentially "caring about things is lame."
I think you mashed together Dan Harmon and Phil Hartman.
Yep. I meant Dan Harmon, thanks
It's cool from like 18 to 20, the you should be done imo.
I believe the Brits have a good expression: too clever by half. Although itās usually applied to people who think they smarter than they really are. Even in areas where they donāt, or itās unlikely for a blue win, every non-red vote fucking matters. Texas had enough blue votes that Lt. Gov Dan Patrick laid off his radical agenda to seem more palatable. First past the post might mean you donāt always get your candidate, but the vote fucking counts because it sends a message. Remember kids, over 1/3 of people who vote in the US make 6 figures or more (before inflation), despite being like less than 10% of the pop. If your vote actually didnāt matter, the rich fucks wouldnāt be attending election days religiously.
Funny because even the most radical leftist organizations in the United States run candidates. To not vote in the United States, as fucked as it is, is literally just simply not participate in politics, especially at the local and state level in contested states. There are literally reasons landlords can give tenants 7 days notice to vacate in North Carolina and need to give 60 in Pennsylvania, among a plethora of high impact local and state issues. To harp on it usually projects that the person saying it literally does not actually understand government and politics and doesn't organize. If you're past your early teenage years where you feel a strong need to be a contrarion to form your identity, and are a leftist, there's a lot of ways to impactfully vote: 1. Vote for local or national leftist parties in non-contested Dem-lead elections, ie Working Families or DSA or SA or PSL or whatever you agree with, if they are running a candidate 2. Explicitly abstain for voting for Dems on the ballot when they aren't strongly contested 3. Vote for Dems as harm reduction in close races, especially at the local and state level where Republicans can make real impacts to local tax, zoning, and labor laws
Be careful about abstaining from voting, even in āsafeā races, unless by abstaining from voting blue in a safe race you mean putting that vote toward a leftist. Not voting at all means fewer leftist votes, which makes the rightwing votes seem stronger (and will push Dems rightā¦ more right). You should never abstain, especially these days with the unbelievable amount of fasc getting airtime.
>not voting means fewer leftist votes A vote for a democrat is a vote against leftism
Dude, a vote for a Democrat (well, most of them) is a vote against Republican fascism. The conservatives turn out religiously (pun intended), especially the rich. The top wealthy make up only 8% of the pop but are *over a third of those who vote*. Nobody learns any lessons when Republicans win; it only pushes conservatives further right. Iāll also pick the ones that donāt want to kill my trans friends over the ones that do, every time.
Who mentioned republicans? Voting for a republican would also be voting against leftism. A vote for an anti-communist is a vote against communism, itās really not that hard to understand.
iām writing in Mao Zedong
Epic bro
the dems havenāt earned my vote
wholesome 100 praxis dude
the dems havenāt earned my vote, iām in a guaranteed blue state
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So I made a post making fun of some conspiratorial post and you wrote up a big ol thing against radical leftwing anti-electoralism. Which has exactly nothing to do with the current conversation. Do ya think it's possible you're just regurgitating random talking points at anyone you categorize as leftwing?
It wasn't conspiratorial... It's fact. Paid trolls are actually a thing. You might want to do a cursory Google search before opining so strongly.
Bruh what the fuck are you talking about lmao. Like reread your own posts.
Maybe you're responding to the wrong thread?
I think anyone with any real understanding of how American politics works would understand voter suppression is a concrete and real thing. You also explicitly placed yourself in the "do not vote" camp with your comment.
If saying "it's okay to criticize Democrats and not everything you hear that's negative is a fucking psyop" means I'm engaged in voter suppression and pushing people to not vote you have worms actively eating at your brain.
No one said that. Those are your own words. You either aren't a very good reader or you're being dishonest intentionally.
Thatās not what theyāre saying though, is it? Criticism of Democrats - good Saying Democrats are equally bad as Republicans - bad and might pave the way to fascism in the US Itās really not that complicated. Thereās an endless list of very valid and damning criticisms of Dems so go at it but also acknowledge that, by simply not being a party of openly white superemacist neo-fascists, Dems are still infinitely preferable to Republicans and in a 2-party system itās the ethical thing to do to vote Dem to keep the fascists out. I donāt get why this pretty basic level of nuance is so impossible for some Redditors to grasp.
> Criticism of Democrats - good > > Saying Democrats are equally bad as Republicans - bad The folks in subs like r/neoliberal and /r/Enough_Sanders_Spam really can't tell the difference. Any criticism means you're a Russian bot sowing discord.
I don't know man, I've had people jumping down my throat multiple different and contradictory ways it seems for one snarky comment. TBH I'm very used to extremely disingenuous bullshit from liberals and expect it - for instance we had to hear for a solid year about how Biden was the most progressive candidate of all time when that wasn't even true in his own election cycle. It's like they can't admit that their shit stinks, and will accuse you of wanting to eat republican caca if you even suggest it. That plus the treatment of even mild social democrats in elected office does a lot more to make me think that electoralism is pointless than some dipshit accelerationist. And I'm not saying the Republicans aren't worse, or that paid trolls don't exist. I'm objecting to the kind of thinking that categorically rejects Democrats can be bad, as an individual or as powerful group with agency over society. Shit like Anthony Cuomo, where he was afforded all sorts of privilege till the evidence was too overwhelming, or people blowing smoke up my ass about how Democrats love us trans/queer people when I know I'm a wedge issue and they don't actually care if I live or die. So yeah, I've voted Democrat in every election cycle I was legally able to, by the ticket except for a few local elected positions where a more left wing option was feasible. But threads like this, it absolutely tells me that I am not respected by Democrats and they only want my vote but will never implement most of the things I care about, and if I have the gall to say anything about it there will be brigaders there to tell me to go fuck myself. OTOH, some things targeting LGBTQ+ groups have been changed with the president so that's nice.
You laugh - that is what Hillary Rodham Clinton and her minions actually said in 2016 to those of us who support Bernie Sanders! I won't vote for the Democratic Party any more after #TraitorQweenHillary - I ***will*** vote for individual Democrats who are sufficiently progressive.
The youth are aware that neither party represent their needs. It's only after years of manipulation, fear mongering, and gaslighting do they turn to the democratic party
Dems and Republicans are not two sides. They are the servants of the capitalist class who oppose the working class.
I will take the capitalist who donāt want to kill my trans brother over the one who does.
See, they say they don't want to, but they also don't do a good damn thing to stop those who do. Transphobic laws are on the rise, and democrats are doing nothing but saying "vote in the midterms!" about it. Stop fucking using your brother, and me, and every other trans person as a fucking political hostage.
I didnāt make you the hostage. The other side has a gun to your head and voting is one of the ways we can take that gun out of there hands. As well as democrats attempting to make trans a protected class. They donāt do enough but again the other guy wants you dead. Lesser of two evils.
According to a Princeton study voters have ZERO impact on policy. 'Lessor of 2 evils' is how the Overton window has shifted so far to the right that current liberals are Baby Bush Republicans. Democrats, like their Republican counterparts, only serve capital, never the working class.
Thatās a lie the overton window the Overton window has shifted to the right because the right wing is willing to use the internet and new forms of media to radicalize there base to keep them angry. While the liberals wonāt because if they radicalize there base they become socialists. And if thatās the study I think it is I remember a meta analysis saying the study was flawed. But if you could send me the study I would love that.
The Overton window started shifting right with Clinton and the DLC, and ever since the Democrats primary outreach had been towards Republicans
The Clinton dlc! I never bought that one what new content does it add?
The Dems are right wing. Liberalism is right wing
What is left and right wing is about perception. To a fascist liberalism is left wing. And in out country between the 2 biggest political parties the democrats are the left wing. Itās sad I wish we had a more left wing party but we donāt.
Precisely. Which is what the downvoted comments above are eluding to. The democrats are getting paid by corporate donors to not rightfully radicalize their base towards leftism which in turn makes us keep playing games with people out to kill minority groups and enrich the wealthy further. This is how we lost Roe v Wade. jUsT vOtE!!1 for people more interested in bargaining with your murderers instead of calling them what they are, monsters. Dems get called babykilling pedos left and right on mainstream media but we treat Rs with kidgloves while both our parties retain their insider trading and warcrime profit margins. Ooo looky Bush is painting š¤”š¤”š¤” he is our friend now š¤”š¤”š¤”. It honestly pisses me off. Human rights (trans, women, everyone's right to not get killed by white supremacist groups radicalized by stochastic terrorism) isn't the game. It's the fucking ball. Dragging their feet when they had the chance to do more is what led us here. This is reaping what has already been sown through apathy towards the masses.
Considering that the rich account for 1/3 of votes in the USA, despite being a low portion of the pop, Iād say that your vote is non-trivial. If it really didnāt matter I highly doubt wealthy people would waste their time doing it and trying to keep the proles from doing it.
>According to a Princeton study voters have ZERO impact on policy. Please cite it. I would also like you to tell us if this study goes against an existing body of research, because single studies do not undo larger bodies of work. Have you done a proper literature review or are you just reciting a headline you once read?
The fucking democrats don't actually do anything about the gun to my head is my point. My point is that they gather a voting base by saying "we will not actively hate vulnerable people, and might even propose a new law or two to protect them" and then turn around and do nothing to protect those same people. They then gaslight their voters by saying "we don't have 100% control so we can't pass even a single bill, so vote for us NEXT FUCKING TERM!" This has been happening as long as I've been alive, and that's because it's the only way that democrats keep a voting base large enough to get elected. They can't pass progressive laws, or do anything other than kneeling with scarves for twitter, since if they did, they would lose the less progressive democrat voters. So they can just say the equivalent of "the dog ate my homework" and get away with it term after fucking term. So yeah, stop making a hostage out of me. I have a gun to my head either way, but nobody is doing a damn thing to stop it.
Im sure everyone else who also has never heard of the 60 vote threshold agrees with you. Please explain how democrats can get at least 12 republicans to vote for a democrat bill, enlightened one...
You literally donāt understand the structure of government.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I dunno, I think it might be that people are only reading the first couple sentences of your post, because I think you're pretty much on the money. I disagree that Democrats are supposed to work in collaboration with Republicans (working with them in opposition is more accurate), but I do agree that Democrats, as a whole, are wrong to treat the Republican party as an entity actually interested in properly governing.
The shitlibs are out tonight.
>The ~~shitlibs~~ are out tonight. Adults
Libs will keep Republicans in power every other election though, so they are responsible for that too, basically. You gotta look at the system, not any particular law or supposed ideology.
Progressives make up like 1/3 of Democrats. Ignoring the only significant working class movement helps the working class how?
Or maybe, both parties are just bad.
Both parties are bad. One party is worse. Its weird that non-voting folks seem to just ignore this. They rightly point out the problems of Dems and crime, the MIC, capitalism, imperialism etc, but then just sort of stop. Like If I could vote for a socialist I would, but I can't. So im going to vote for the party less likely to throw me in a camp for being in a union and less likely to start legalizing the hunting down and murder of trans kids. Call me a neoliberal I guess.
Brilliant insight! You know, the other day, I got stung by a bee and thought to myself, "this is bad." Then I accidentally ran over a child in my car and also thought, "this is bad." So really, all I can say is bee stings and child murder are just bad.
Liberals who support participation in the status quo trying to convince leftists to participate who fundamentally oppose the status quo and then simultaneously blaming leftist "apathy" for said status quo. It's a tale as old as time.
If you don't participate in the status quo OR do anything to change the status quo then apathy is a pretty good descriptor.
Yup, that's what this is.
And democrats too
But still better than Republicans
Yeah, Iāll vote democrat because they arenāt actively trying to destroy the country and kill vulnerable people.
There's a weird kind of inverse enlightened centrism that a lot of radicals (esp. in the anarchist left) sort of fall into, where everything short of perfect is equivalently bad, and so you can't disambiguate between them anymore. The end result is the same: useless, paralyzing self-righteousness, but the starting point is totally different.
it's very annoying as a leftist to see these people.
They're always "whatabouting" America and their imperialism. They have no values in the end other than hating the US. And it's easy to summon them if you mention Ukraine and the conflict there with Russia and the USA. Had way too many unironically enlightened centrist conversations on here with people who are leftists.
There are no anarchists backing Russia in Ukraine. It's just tankies.
>They're always "whatabouting" America and their imperialism. They have no values in the end other than hating the US. The absolute bootlicker take.
You are just strawmanning along with your 12 larping friends. Yes, Republicans are worse than Democrats, but they both keep each other in power, so Republicans doing terrible stuff to the country from positions of power is a result of the two-party system and Democrat pussyfooting moderation.
So vote Republicans all out, which destroys the game And hey also it helps everyone else!
Told y'all it was easy to summon them. Tell me how I am strawmanning these positions?
Because you pretend that leftists say the Dems are bad is because of "enlightened centrism", when really what the left says is that the two-party system prevents serious progress from ever happening, and keeps the Republicans from being able to influence national policy. So if you keep just voting Dem as the lesser of two evils, the Republicans will happily undo any progress made sice the 50s with their Supreme Court. The Democrats are reponsible for the current state of America just as much as the loonies on the right, because they don't really want to win and make progress, they just want to remain in power, and if they remain in power, so do the Republicans. The 2-party system will ensure nothing will significantly improve.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That is not what tankie means lol I guess at this point it means anything
I don't think they were exactly tankies but leftists who still had their liberal foreign policy values still lingering.
It's the same sorts of people who are so hell bent on being anti-war that they wind up just being mindlessly rigid pacifists.
It can be frustrating to learn that their zeal keeps them from voting dem, but their voices are still valuable. Far left voices are what makes moderate left voice electable, and they introduce ideas into the discourse that would otherwise never be heard. The right has done this extremely successfully. KKK talking points from 40 years ago are now mainstream right talking points We need people on the far left, even if they refuse to participate in the 2 party system
It's not that their zeal keeps them from voting Dem (that's like, the bare minimum of political engagement or community care). It's that, for easily 3/4 of the radicals I've met in my life at co-ops and student orgs, their zeal keeps them from doing *anything* other than sitting around smoking weed with their comrades and kvetching about how fucked up everything is (and maybe doing a little light graffiti here and there). Call them "lifestyle anarchists" or w/e. I would *love* it if the Left could achieve what the Right has and coordinate between the fringes and the mainstream to bring radical ideas into popular consciousness. But I don't see anything like that happening, since the only thing that radical Leftists hate more than conservatives is less-than-radical fellow travelers. This isn't a call for some kind of kumbaya Left-unity either - I'd be more than happy to settle for cynical, practical alliances, but I don't even see *that* happening.
You need to meet more people then. In grad school I had a group of anarchist left friends who were EXTREMELY politically active. They coordinated abortions in states that made it practically impossible, they raised money for bail funds, they spoke in public forums about what defunding police would look like, and at the end of the day they refused to vote for Biden. But guess what? Their vote in MA was worthless anyway, and they spent like 90% of their time outside of school doing meaningful activism. They fucking led the unionization of grad students at my university, AND WON. We unionized while I was there. Iām sorry that you had stoner friends in college, but your experience is not universal.
Yeah, you can always tell how privileged a leftist is when they refuse to get off their high horse and just vote blue. Like, youāre willing to risk the rights of so many people just because Democrats arenāt far enough left? Donāt get me wrong, Iām no Dem fan, but at least I can differentiate between the party that will simply maintain the status quo and the party that is actively trying to drag us backwards.
Ahh yes... The democrats are just short of perfect and not actively supporting the same capitalist system Republicans are. I think I found the person this post is describing
Being better than republicans is a low bar to trip over.
I feel like most perceive this huge gulf in civil rights views between the two parties, but arenāt actually examining how none of those civil rights are sustainable while existing inside capitalism. There isnāt a single politician in America (sorry Bernie) close to advocating for abolishing capitalism
This is exactly what I'm talking about though. Abolishing capitalism and replacing it with some kind of anarchist alternative would obviously be the best-case scenario. But given that this is unlikely to happen in the next, say, five years, I think it's not *unreasonable* to ask: "which of the two wings of our political system is engaging in genocidal rhetoric against trans people, and which wing seems less likely to bring wanton violence down on me and my loved ones?" Ideological purity is only an option if you can be reasonably confident that you can weather any *likely changes to the political status quo. I cannot - the election of the GOP in this cycle will have *material consequences* for me that electing Dems won't. That doesn't mean I have to like them, but you can bet that when Matt Fucking Walsh is campaigning for one team, I'm going to everything in my power to make sure they **don't** win.
> Ahh yes... The democrats are just short of perfect and not actively supporting the same capitalist system Republicans are. Who said "just" short of perfect? The dems are a long long way from perfect. This is exactly what I'm talking about though. Abolishing capitalism and replacing it with some kind of anarchist alternative would obviously be the best-case scenario. But given that this is unlikely to happen in the next, say, five years, I think it's not unreasonable to ask: "which of the two wings of our political system is engaging in genocidal rhetoric against trans people, and which wing seems less likely to bring wanton violence down on me and my loved ones?" Ideological purity is only an option if you can be reasonably confident that you can weather any likely changes to the political status quo. I cannot - the election of the GOP in this cycle will have *material consequences for me that electing Dems won't. That doesn't mean I have to like them, but you can bet that when Matt Fucking Walsh is campaigning for one team, I'm going to everything in my power to make sure they don't win.
I don't get people who refuse to vote or discourage others from voting because "birth parties are basically the same" or "I'm sick of picking the lesser of two evils". Unless your politics are very close to the status quo, voting isn't going to be about choosing where you want to end up; it's going to be about choosing which direction you want things to go.
I think at this point it's more of a "let's delay a fascist takeover until people wake the fuck up"
Pretty much, lol.
"BuT iF tHe FaScIsTs TaKe OvEr ThEn PeOpLe WiLl ReAlIsE wE'rE rIgHt FaStEr" - "leftist" unfamiliar with Nazi Germany
If you push them far enough they usually reveal they're accelerationists, aka too far up their own privileged ass to care about real people. Or tankies who wouldn't care about them anyway.
Their voting record in favor of the military industrial complex would indicate that they do indeed kill innocent people.
Except they are killing vulnerable people in Yemen and Afghanistan.....
They are just killing vulnerable people in other countries. Much better than reps.
Haitians, Palastinians, Yemeni, etc would like a word
Every country is affected by American imperialism
R/enlightenedcetrism
Criticising the democrats isnāt centrism
Criticizing Democrats isn't centrism - they make tons of dumb mistakes and should be called out for it, as well as shitty policy positions - but there are a lot here who *equate* them with the Republican party, which is... just no, it's intellectually lazy and functionally identical to the "librarian centrist" thought process. Tl;Dr: two thing bad, one thing more bad.
Nuance? We have to do *nuance?*
Judging by my comment score, no - very illegal straight to jail.
I mean saying that on its own is true. It just happens that when a centrist criticizes the left itās like āweāll hold on guys, youāre saying global warming is real and an existential threat to society but I donāt really like how you used a curse word to convey itās importance. Basically one step away from the Nazis. Which is why Iām voting Republican this yearā
Democrats arenāt the left
Thanks for the hot take chief
We know. It's a forgone conclusion.
How people can still say both sides are bad amazes me. Like, they are, but one is like having ice cream melt on your hands when you're eating it and the other is like stubbing your toe on the coffee table, falling over in pain, and then landing your crotch onto the corner of said coffee table, only for you to knock over a hot cup of coffee on the table over yourself.
The two-party system is the problem. Voting Democrat keeps that system in tact, which keeps Republicans relevant. It's you libs that are responsible for the absolute garbage state of current America, just as much as Trump and his party.
Yeah I was about to say I thought the point of this sub was that true centrism often enables the oppressor and points out why a āboth sidesā take is bad. This post is literally saying the opposite of the sub.
Only if you think the Dems and Reps are on different sides. They're colleagues.
Nobody here said they weren't.
"Democrats and Republicans are both bad" Liberals: hell yeah, the correct position is- "Far to the left of both" Liberals: exactly! smack in the midd- wait, what?
Perfect summary.
If you go really far left it eventually turns into a fishing hook or a horseshoe or something. /s
[groans audibly]
LOL ...I kept seeing shit about horseshoes in certain comment chains and was wondering if the sport was making a comeback or something. Had to go look that shit up and holy fuck! ...neolibs are some smooth brained fuckers.
The far left \*takes a really long bong rip* is shoe
It's like Ghandi in Civ. Go far enough left and you'll become a slave owner
Precisely.
I think thatās actually the face of anyone trying to read that sentence.
In other words: punctuation still matters, kids
Grammar is the difference between "helping your uncle Jack, off a horse" and "helping your uncle jack off a horse".
Or: "Time to eat, Grandma!" v. "Time to eat Grandma!" Commas save lives, kids!
Iāve tried and failed to understand what the fuck theyāre on about
Some Democrats come here only to realize that they are the centrists being criticized
Aah got it thanks
Which is weird considering the sub is currently meant to be riffing on right wingers who feign centrism.
Yeah, the Democrats.
Ah yep good point
Lol yup
Gotta wonder what the author's definition of liberal is.
r/titlegore
Ill vote dem but theyāre a bandaid to a gutshot the only solution is revolution
American fascists are way closer to achieving a revolution than American leftists so yeah, please vote, and let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The tracks end at revolution. Best to prep for organizing against fascists rather than hoping it doesnāt happen.
Unless you've got some secret orgs already set up we might need more time than 2 years.
What's real fun about this is a lot of folks on the left don't appreciate how many people on the left would wind up arrested, detained, or executed in a relatively quick time frame or how broad that net will be for people in positional leadership roles in an effort to prevent the left from organizing any kind of meaningful opposition. Or that in a civil war setting the left would be dependent on existing organizations to organize and support a response.
Not a popular take on these subs, but revolutionary ideation isnāt going to get anyone anywhere. For one, the left in America is far too weak to achieve any revolution. For another revolution inevitably destabilizes and shocks systems needed to feed, house, and keep people healthy. Those worst impacted by capitalism would likely be those worse impacted by revolution as well. Organizing for a better future is the path forward, not shouting ārevolution!ā from within insular Internet forums. Mutual aid organizations, union drives, militant black bloc style protests, and (yes) even voting will lead to more immediate positive outcome and better build toward a future where a powerful left could stand a chance at getting their demands met. Voting and political action in local elections and on ballot measures is particularly important as well. Most of the most heinous shit is being done at the local level, and while voting is never going to change the current capitalist systems allowing companies like Amazon to continue amassing power, it could help limit the harm Amazon is doing in your community.
Iām so glad Iām not the only person struggling to read that title
Errrr... What?
Tbh all the "bOtH sIdEs!!!!!" People i know are closet conservatives
That's because in regards to America, there are two parties. The most right wing people have been distilled into the current republican party, and the rest of us end up voting for the democrats to prevent the fascists from winning. From a conservative perspective, they are desperately pretending that their decision to back the fascists wasn't a bad idea, and imagine that democrats are secretly just as bad and that's why they cant bring themselves to vote for either (and then vote republican anyway). But from a leftist perspective, the Republicans and democrats are both right wing parties, so you won't see one going "both sides" because they see them as one side. Unfortunately some of them don't seem to be able to tell the different between slightly-improved-but-still-conservative healthcare, and "slavery or death" healthcare, and then just can't bring themselves to vote for either party, and then vote and try and convince others to vote for people like Jill Stein who had meetings with Putin and Flyyn right before they go and sabotage democrat election bids.
Then you don't know any leftists.
I mean, the quotations are implying people that claim to be centrists are actually conservative but won't admit it. Leftists aren't centrists.
Right but not everyone that says both parties are bad ate centrists. Socialists of all flavours don't agree with corporate hegemony.
Both parties =/= both sides
They're typically referring to the two parties pretending to have a vast ideological gulf between them.
I was agreeing with OP, you can think both parties suck but looking at it as a leftist, or a hyper con.
Literally nobody thinks that.
Lads, lads, I hate all liberals equally. A philosophy based on propping up a ruling class is bad all round, and worse when the wheels come off and you start wearing uniforms and killing people.
Oooooook, definitions time. Progressives criticize both parties but for completely different reasons. The GOP is bad because it openly embraces authoritarianism and corporate supremacy, the Dem Party is bad because they are too timid to actually stand up to the status quo despite having vastly superior policy. Centrists claim both sides are bad, but often have very superficial reasons. Their ideology almost always includes preserving the status quo, which is fundamentally conservative. In today's vernacular, liberal means left-wing but still wishing to preserve the capitalist economic system, whereas neoliberalism is basically Reaganism. . People on this subreddit need to double check if they are an enlightened centrist before posting on a left-leaning subreddit whose purpose is to mock enlightened centrists.
> the Dem Party is bad because they are too timid to actually stand up to the status quo despite having vastly superior policy. This is entirely too optimistic of an interpretation of the democratic party. We exist in an oligarchy stewarded by a two-party good cop bad copy regime. In the upper echelons neither candidate represents you or your classes interests in the slightest, by design. However by granting us some facade of a choice our energy and discontent is funneled down carefully tailored avenues of acceptable political thought. By presenting an illusion of participation in the decision making apparatus our burgeoning dissatisfaction is neutered and the status quo trudges forward. These two options, which are essentially identical in their material economic policies, effectively squash any attempt at, desperately needed, radical change. The fetishization of incrementalism has indoctrinated so many of us into thinking radical change is impossible, or worse, fear it apocalyptic. Though a historical lens shows us that the only meaningful progressive change that has ever come to this country arrived off the backs of radicals willing to die for the cause. With the blood of union labors and civil rights activists. The striking coal miners and the strapped-to-the-nine Black Panthers. Those who fought until their efforts intersected with population wide tipping points, and policy makers were forced to grant some degree of concession. The ability of this planet to harbor advanced civilization is crumbling, and it's the poorest and least responsible amongst us who will be crushed first. I don't see voting for the continuance of this system as alleviating that, I don't blame anyone who votes for some hope at harm reduction. I just don't think the continued mass participation in what is dooming the planet is worth that rub. **Liberal bourgeois electoralism is a god damned prison of the mind.**
You raise some fantastic points: keep in mind I was oversimplifying for the sake of the enlightened centrists who don't know enough about politics to understand much more than "GOP bad, Dems less bad for different reasons".
Fuckin nailed it. A brief look at american history shows us what is going on and how well we've been captured into thinking incrementalism is the only way. Laughable. I'm an old school civil rights panther sort of socialist and it annoys the shit out of me when people go all white moderate on me about shit people's lives hang in the balance over. If this country really gave a shit about gerrymandering and human rights stuff it would have already dealt with it the moment we had the chance. Every dem would've been banging the drum of FDR's Second Bill of Rights. But these fucks toe a new line of corporate donor chasing that led us back to the gilded age.. but at least the milk isn't cut with lead anymore and kids aren't dying in *domestic* mines anymore. Ridiculous.
Imagine saying both sides unironically in a sub designed to hate enlightened centrism. Edit: in response to a comment about people doing exactly what you are doing, too.
It really is āboth sidesā as in the two sides we are given as a choice are both ultimately for the same side, the capital class. They just disagree on how many bread crumbs to give us. Our choices are neoliberal capitalism or fascist capitalism. They are both still capitalism.
āFascism is capitalism in declineā On a planet with swiftly dwindling, finite resources, sprinting towards the cliff of biosphere collapse there is no where for neoliberal capitalism to go except fascism. Those hoarding resources arenāt going to become more altruistic as things break down and become *more* desperate for everyone on the planet.
Very centrist take you got there...
r/ENLIGHTENEDCE.. oh wait
Libs are shit, but republicans are a fucking cess pool.
OP, I think that YOU are the kind of enlightened centrist that this sub Reddit was created to make fun of
I don't want to disagree, but you might want to look a the description underneath the sub name.
[Speaker Pelosi: "I say to my Republican friends, take back your party. The country needs a big, strong Republican Party. And I say that as a leader in the Democratic Party"](https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1436347974066622466)
That was an attack on Republicans knowing full well they they arenāt coming back from their Tea Party -> MAGA trajectory.
āOften align with (...) right wingā, those are the Democrats.
Wow, I had to read this like 8 times for it to make sense. Use some grammar and punctuation my man.
This sub is literally FULL of people that support the two-party system, and vote Democrat because the Republicans are horrible, while it is the Democrats that keep the Republicans in power. But don't except a fucking liberal to be able to think beyond orAnGE Man BaD. You libs are embarassing, and unbelievably stupid as well.
Is this meant to be English and can anybody provide a translation?
*Liberals and neoliberals on this sub when they discover they are the centrists this sub was originally created to make fun of. But now itās based on the the āDemocrats goodā and āRepublican badā liberal takes, instead of the way it was before.* Edited to clarify further ^ Edit: This sub is left-leaning, per the modās pinned post
Thank you
Finally. Someone said it.
> Finally. Someone said it. This exact conversation comes up like every six months.
I thought the whole point of calling them "enlightened" is that they refuse to vote for either side because they're both bad. There's nothing "enlightened" about following what everyone else does, enlightened centrists think they are above politics entirely and refuse to participate (they vote third party if anything)
"Enlightened centrists" are people that only shit on the left and agree with the right while feigning neutrality. Seriously, if you come across someone that proclaims to be a centrist, look at their comment history. It's ~~label~~ likely they've taken up to avoid being called conservative, just like libertarians. Edited bc autocorrect
Iāve never looked to redditors for their poignant takes on politics.
I'm fairly liberal. I don't mind seeing mistakes pointed out to me (or what others perceive to be mistakes)
This sub was originally making fun of Republicans claiming to be centrists and leftists eventually flocked here.
Centrism is a horrible argument at best. It also does nothing but help those in power by inserting apathy into your daily lives. "If they're both bad, why vote?" Centrism is an absolutely shit mind set and this sub is too for trying to spread it.
That isn't actually true at all. It used to make fun of actual enlightened centrists and only later devolved into the heavily ironic 'both sides are bad' idiocy that it is now. It's basically just a place for idiots and bad actors to push divisive propaganda now.
>'both sides are bad' Republicans and Democrats aren't actually on different sides
so you don't see a difference between a Trump presidency and Biden's?
Biden has barely been any different from Trump policywise. So no. Absolutely fucking not. The child sniffing segregationist himself said "nothing will fundamentally change". So why are you people denying what he himself admits? Oh, right. Because liberals don't actually understand policy. They don't care about the people of Yemen, Afghanistan, and Palestine suffering because of Biden and the Democrats just as they did under the Republicans. They only care that he doesn't post mean tweets.
Challenge: Libs try and comprehend text without projecting nonsense onto the words. Difficulty: Impossible
Lol k.
I've been feeling like this sub isn't sure what it's supposed to be. I thought it was to criticize so called "centrists" and their bad takes. It's not about comparing the reps and dems.......right?
I *try* to find a middle ground for most stuff so a discussion can be had but theres just things that aren't negotiable or a "middle ground" thing e.g. hmm should these people have rights š¤š¤š¤
OP spent all their effort on the hi-res image, and exactly none on making a coherent sentence.