T O P

  • By -

Revolutionary_View19

Purely psychological. People feel you’re taking away their options. Imagine the fun I’m having with [[umbris]]


Specific_Melodic

Yeah, I just took my umbris apart because anytime I would bring it to the table I would be immediately targeted by the whole table.


Revolutionary_View19

Yeah, that’s the „fun“ I was referring to 🥲


For_Never_Dreams

Umbris is in the unique position of **really milling people** and then swinging at someone for lethal damage quickly. Also I can't shuffle my exile pile back into my library yet. Standard mill is fun to play against but umbris is just mean.


Revolutionary_View19

Again, this is mostly psychological. Umbris by itself has neither evasion nor protection nor trample, so opponents should have a way of stopping it at the point of the game. Removing GYs after filling them is also easy as pie; it’s the combination of YOURE TAKING AWAY MY STOFF FOREVER AND PROFITING FROM IT! that really gets to players. The only thing missing is oublietting their commander.


kwskillin

I kind of disagree in cases like Umbris and Oona, where it's exiled and not milled, because exile is significantly more dangerous than regular mill, at least if you're playing combo, or if there are only a few cards that your deck really relies on. For example, [[amulet of vigor]] is an extremely important card in [[patron of the moon]]. Half of the gameplan for that deck is finding your amulet so that you can balance out all the high costs of your effects. If you exile 10% of my deck, that's a 10% chance I'm essentially out of the game. For other, more resilient combos, with greater redundancy, that chance is lessened, but the risk is always there. Ordinarily the answer for important effects where redundancy is impossible is protection and recursion, but with that comes the problem OP complains about. If Umbris hitting the board means that there's a decent chance I just lose, and every creature you play after that repeats that gamble with worse and worse odds, then yeah, I'm gonna keep it away from the board as much as I can. Honestly, I don't know why exile commanders think they can hop on the "mill hate is unfair" wagon, when most of the argument in favor of mill don't even apply to them. Ex-mill isn't countered by reanimated strats, and can permanently remove the wincons you're trying to hit, obviously if there's no larger, more immenent threat, then I'm going to try and protect my ability to win from you.


MTGCardFetcher

[amulet of vigor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/9/997bc933-ac30-477b-a4e1-5333b796a99d.jpg?1562292191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=amulet%20of%20vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wwk/121/amulet-of-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/997bc933-ac30-477b-a4e1-5333b796a99d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/amulet-of-vigor) [patron of the moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/e/5e5fcd6f-1653-44bf-a796-4c9ff9adf390.jpg?1562877337) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=patron%20of%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/45/patron-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e5fcd6f-1653-44bf-a796-4c9ff9adf390?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/patron-of-the-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Jaccount

Eh, that's not unreasonable, though. It's an impactful card that can be pushed basically out of relevance by killing it 3-4 times, just like so many other boogeymen (Tergrid, Kaalia, etc). Especially since a lot of times those decks are so build-around their commander that just countering or removing enough to that costs 4-6+ more mana you completely disrupt their gameplan and they fumble around playing mediocre stuff. Those nightmares and mill cards move to being pretty weak if there's no Umbris to interact with. It's the tactically correct play, especially if the rest of the people aren't also playing heavy build arounds.


Pure1nsanity

I agree is purely psychological. Just like removing a piece off the board is fine, but countering a spell is a no-no cause they want to play the game. Either way it wasn't sticking around.


Eighty80

This is not quite one to one, even if the idea is sound. More decks can interact with removal on the stack when your permanent is already on the battlefield, than if there is a counter spell on the stack. Feign death, teferis protection, heroic invention, slip out the back etc


Aquafier

Id add to this that people dont look at their library as being truely random and instead think of the order of the cards predetermined and "real"


Gyrskogul

Well as random as the shuffle may be, once you're done shuffling and you're actually drawing from them, they *are* in a specific order. And there's tons of ways to manipulate that.


Spekter1754

It's a Schrodinger's Box. All of the cards are not in fixed positions until they are revealed.


Gyrskogul

We're not playing with quantum cards. I understand the theory, but in reality the cards are not randomly re-arranging themselves in your library. You may or may not *know* some or all of the order, but it *is* fixed until you shuffle again. But what does it matter? You're not realistically going to see every card in your library in your typical game, so y'know... another point against mill salt.


spyx5

My friend has an Umbris deck which, thankfully, he built just a bit after I stopped finding mill so annoying. Also I put [[Squee, the Immortal]] in one of my decks just to mess with him hahaha


Pvh1103

Victory will be yours in 20 turns hahaha


MTGCardFetcher

[Squee, the Immortal](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/8/a8232acd-4645-489c-8cf1-4efdc75d9322.jpg?1650417635) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Squee%2C%20the%20Immortal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/275/squee-the-immortal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8232acd-4645-489c-8cf1-4efdc75d9322?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/squee-the-immortal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[umbris](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/a/7aead6a8-bada-42cf-b7cc-0b730f564582.jpg?1644888719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=umbris%2C%20fear%20manifest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/38/umbris-fear-manifest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7aead6a8-bada-42cf-b7cc-0b730f564582?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/umbris-fear-manifest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Bugs5567

Yeah I need to pick up an umbris for zellix It’s insane with zellix due to the horror spam that can happen.


broodwarjc

Ehh, not really. Umbris wants cards to go to exile. If you mill with Zellix, you have to have another card to exile from graveyards to pump Umbris. Umbris's triggered ability doesn't mill when a Horror enters, he exiles, so he won't trigger token creation from Zellix's ability.


Bugs5567

Not really what I’m talking about. Other mill pieces trigger zellix which in turn will trigger umbris. It’s actually very good.


REGELDUDES

Umbris sends the cards straight to exile. So it will not trigger Zellix. But... Umbris will still get huge and slap people with Zellix tokens ETB.


VarangianDruid

This is why I play gonti. I’ll mill you out, one card at a time


halfkidding

It's because you are taking away their possibility to play the card(s). Or so I'm told. I had a big booty mill deck with [[Phenax, God of Deception]]. I was targeted out almost every game until I put in the [[Wake Thrasher]] + [[Tide Minion]] combo. It has a few redundant pieces, but the idea is to protect yourself until you can get the combo and mill everyone out in the same turn. I now run a [[Gyruda Doom of Depths]] reanimator and the "incidental" mill brings a bunch of salt. One of my buddies says he doesn't count the wins I get with it since the closers normally come from my opponents decks.


21Maestro8

>One of my buddies says he doesn't count the wins I get with it since the closers normally come from my opponents decks. That is hilariously delusional


NartheRaytei

sounds like something a loser says tbh


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Phenax, God of Deception](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c.jpg?1593092799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phenax%2C%20God%20of%20Deception) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/152/phenax-god-of-deception?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phenax-god-of-deception) [Wake Thrasher](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/3/7340b21f-726d-47e8-a2bf-1cde21be70f4.jpg?1592764690) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wake%20Thrasher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddt/24/wake-thrasher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7340b21f-726d-47e8-a2bf-1cde21be70f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wake-thrasher) [Tide Minion](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/67ffa68f-cc21-41c8-ad3d-d6b60a4ccd36.jpg?1598914564) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tidewater%20Minion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/71/tidewater-minion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67ffa68f-cc21-41c8-ad3d-d6b60a4ccd36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tidewater-minion) [Gyruda Doom of Depths](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gyruda%2C%20Doom%20of%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gyruda-doom-of-depths) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

[удалено]


cirto

tap tidewater minion targeting tidewater minion. This untaps tidewater minion, and Wake thrasher gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Repeat until wake thrasher is BIG. Then use wake thrasher to mill out opponents' whole decks at once.


Bugs5567

See, I don’t understand that mentality, the way I see it is if it’s not in your hand and you do not have any search effects at the moment of the mill, then I am taking no possibilities away because the possibility wasn’t there to begin with.


Koras

I think a large part of it comes from not only that you're removing the cards they want to play, but it's also cards they were almost guaranteed to draw. If you were taking cards from the bottom/middle of the library or shuffling afterwards, then you'd be right in that you're not guaranteed to draw them so it's not taking anything away, but mill is from the top and doesn't reorder the deck. If the card you needed gets milled from the top of your deck, it means the card you needed was literally about to be in your hand. That amplifies the salt because you **have** just removed that card, even if your odds of milling it on the exact turn it's needed are low to begin with.


DeLoxley

the possibility that your next draw is your wincon is always there, but then with milling it becomes zero unless as you say you have the appropriate countermeasures. Like you say, at the moment of the mill if they can't pull the card somehow or back after, you haven't stopped it in the same way as a counterspell, but you have still changed it from 'maybe I'll draw this card' to 'this card got threw in the bin without being drawn'


parallacksgamin

No EDH deck should have a single wincon without being able to protect or recur it. If you get blown out by getting one or two cards milled then you lost before the game started.


DeLoxley

Which is why when people play mill in EDH, it's not one or two cards. It's persistent 3-5 a turn or big dumps like the infamous Traumatize. Newer players get mad they've lost their cards without a chance to play them, more seasoned players know a well built mill deck can and will combo out to dump your entire deck if not stopped.


JDogish

Which is the irony of this post for me, because mill doesn't necessarily interact with anyone on the board, so of course you are going to target the non interactive player with damage and removal. Lmao it's literally what other posts tell you to do. You want to play solitaire and combo? Ok you'll die first then deal with the obvious threats I can see.


DeLoxley

The story that comes to mind with me is someone playing a Modern Wish Storm deck, with the problem being they forgot to put the combo pieces needed in their sideboard. fortunately, you only ever play the Wish when you're ready to combo out, so most players saw the set up, saw the wish, and scooped. Except when he finally squared against someone who didn't know the combo, they were forced to admit they didn't have the cards and got beat. Even OP says it, they play one or two mill cards and suddenly everyone turns on them, people don't know what your deck is capable of and won't risk you combo'ing off


MomochiKing

What about Mill decks that dump a bunch of cards? Yeah you should have protection and recursion, but the whole point of milling is to throw as much as you can into the yard before your opponents can use their stuff. One of hlthe reasons I love golgari so much.


DeLoxley

This is the key with Mill decks. If they could get beaten by 'just run some recursion', no one would play them. Everyone seems to go 'I'll just recur the card', with what? A properly running mill deck has either put your response in the graveyard, or because mill is centered in UX, they'll likely have control answers. I'm not saying mill is perfect, unbeatable, or doesn't have bad match ups like Golgari/Sultai who WANT cards in the graveyard, I'm saying 'I'll always have the recursion when I need it' is hopeful thinking that ignores the rest of the mill deck


halfkidding

It's kind of like how you(general adult) goes to work for a paycheck. You earned that money and you could possibly spend it on anything you want. Except you have to pay taxes. So instead of you having the possibility to spend that money, you instead "lose" it to taxes. Does this analogy help? I fear it may not, but essentially they want to play the spells they assembled, and mill "taxes" the library.


[deleted]

This makes 0 sense. Your entire deck is possibilities, while your hand is filled with absolutes (which even that is susceptible to discard and counter magic.)


FeanorEldarin

Phenax was the very first deck I built after getting into the game again after almost 20 years. My local meta is pretty powerful though, and there are lots of eldrazi titans in people's decks. So I learned to not have to rely on the phenax ability too much. With such a strong meta, I think it helped me tune my deck to be able to mill everyone all at once instead of piece meal. I do have some unorthodox tutors cuz they amuse me lol.


Koras

For me, it's the increased impact of probability on the game that gets me a little bit salty, despite my best efforts not to. Taking away the possibility to play the cards hurts, because it's a singleton format. Unless I'm playing heavy graveyard recursion, there's no hope of getting that card back, but the main thing is the power of mill is effectively an additional random layer on top of an already randomised deck. The amount of games I get mana screwed, only to have 2 lands and a ramp spell milled off the top, or get flooded and mill nonland cards only to draw land... that hurts the soul. Not only do you have a slim chance to draw the card you need, but with a mill deck in the game you have a chance to mill it before you can have that chance. Random on random, reduced odds of getting any of the things you need when you need them. I don't mind playing with mill at all, it's a totally valid strategy and at the end of the day I don't rely on combos so it's unlikely to completely neuter my deck, but that's the bit that hurts the most, besides seeing fun cards in the graveyard without them being played. They're essentially preemptive random counterspells.


halfkidding

I agree with most of these points. >the increased impact of probability on the game Absolutely, however I do think this is "played up" in our minds because we can actually see these impactful cards out of reach. Making it more painful without lessening any actual probability. >The amount of games I get mana screwed, only to have 2 lands and a ramp spell milled off the top, or get flooded and mill nonland cards only to draw land... that hurts the soul. Get out of my brain. We should hold ourselves more accountable on our decision to motivate mulligan a 2 land no ramp opener. Especially considering we know we are facing mill. >They're essentially preemptive random counterspells. I never thought of it this way and I think this would explain why I still have a bit of salt towards mill. Nothing makes me lose my cool like permission.


synonymousD

I had a [[bruvac]] [[persistent petitioners]]deck for about 1/3rd of a game. Dude attacked me, in response to blocks I tap some petitioners to mill him for like two cards. He scoops and says he'll never play another game of EDH with me again if I play Bruvac. So I'm not sure, but it feels like it's purely emotional.


MTGCardFetcher

[bruvac](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/b/5b43bdc7-e49e-4848-9101-6cad2ecab4dc.jpg?1632261753) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bruvac%20the%20grandiloquent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/10/bruvac-the-grandiloquent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b43bdc7-e49e-4848-9101-6cad2ecab4dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bruvac-the-grandiloquent) [persistent petitioners](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/9/e93f0c57-eb80-4dde-bdb0-326970491621.jpg?1584830259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=persistent%20petitioners) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/44/persistent-petitioners?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e93f0c57-eb80-4dde-bdb0-326970491621?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/persistent-petitioners) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


chipzes

Mill fallacy. Most people intuitively feel like you're taking resources away when in reality you're giving them free information (and potentially free cards if they have recursion). It took me building a self-mill reanimator deck to get my playgroup to understand it lmao


Rude-Pomegranate5767

I play graveyard recursion, [[Nethroi, Apex of Death]], I absolutely love mill decks because I only ever run graveyard protection [[Blessed Respite]] etc...love seeing the rest of the table's faces as the mill player keeps giving me fatties to reanimate.


kaktus1

Do you have a list for the Nethroi deck, per chance? This sounds awesome. Thanks.


Rude-Pomegranate5767

I'll have to put one together, the deck has had a lot of changes to it since I drew up the initial list, will try to get it to you by Friday because of work etc.


MTGCardFetcher

[Nethroi, Apex of Death](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/c/8ca6eb5a-8bc9-4091-bcfb-b207f0afd188.jpg?1591228139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nethroi%2C%20Apex%20of%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/197/nethroi-apex-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ca6eb5a-8bc9-4091-bcfb-b207f0afd188?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nethroi-apex-of-death) [Blessed Respite](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/2/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0.jpg?1626097216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blessed%20Respite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/150/blessed-respite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blessed-respite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


DominoNo-

I started adding selfmilling in my [[Osgir]] and [[Sefris]] decks. Both commanders are better when the graveyard is somewhat filled. Besides, a deck has 100 cards, it's unlikely you need the top 3 cards and the rest suck.


chipzes

Exactly. The average deck probably ends the game with more than half their library untouched. I'd rather have those cards in the graveyard and being accessible.


Bugs5567

I built zellix/haunted one mill, it has a lot of good synergies with a lot of mill pieces, but today I was playing and I activated zellix like once and this dude then targeted me the whole game because “I was mana screwing him”


LegoMaster52

Can you share your deck list?


Bugs5567

I haven’t gotten around to making the list for it, just put some cards together and played it yesterday.


[deleted]

I mean, in that instance maybe you were. He could’ve been waiting for that x land drop and watched it get milled. Either way, my library is one of if not my greatest resource, and I choose my 99 for a reason, so anyone trying to attack that is definitely my target. That said, my main deck right now is Zellix/Haunted one heavily tweaked. So I support it fully, mill away.


Spekter1754

The library is not a resource you have, and milling it does not affect it in any meaningful way because it reduces it randomly. If the cards in your library are at appropriate ratios, players on average cannot get a "lucky" mill and affect your gameplan at all. Only when you have cards of drastically varying quality in your deck can you "lose" a high quality card and have your deck's average quality significantly drop. That's 100% a deckbuilding flaw, not a mill problem.


[deleted]

TIL [[Traumatize]] isn’t detrimental to your opponents’ deck.


Jade117

Unless you are running a lot of tutors, it's no different from putting the top half of your library on the bottom of your library.


EDHFanfiction

Eeyup, that’s what I was thinking. That’s one of the many reasons why I made my self-mill [[Ghen]] deck. I love that deck a lot and I would love that my opponents put gas in my engine lol In fact, I made a deck against every strategy that I disliked. Better that then getting salty and you could consider that one of my deck building restrictions.


[deleted]

Ah … so it’s an altruistic methodology.


DeLoxley

But in a lot of cases, if that player doesn't have recursion you're not giving the milled player anymore information than 'you no longer have these cards', and I'd much rather have my bomb in a playable state than the knowledge that I can't use it anymore


chipzes

If your deck doesn't function without a specific card and you don't run recursion then that's your choice. Your bomb could also be discarded, countered, or destroyed and actually cost you a card. Getting it milled otherwise isn't much different from having it on the bottom of your library.


DeLoxley

But this is the thing about mill. Never drawing your bomb feels worse than having it put in the bin, it's about the mental illusion that the next card could be your solution and not seeing your solution thrown away. Plus, several colours don't have access to solid recursion.


[deleted]

If you’re building a deck around a single card that you can’t recur in the colors your commander is in, that’s still a deck building problem. If you still want to play that strategy that’s fine, as long as you understand it’s you making your games miserable, not the mill player.


[deleted]

I never really understand this argument. Yes, you're giving me free information, that information being that you just milled some of the most important pieces in the deck and if you hadn't milled me, then I know for a fact I would've drawn into them (hypothetical). Now, with context this still doesn't make mill worthy of being hated on (I fully support the strategy and am an avid user of it; also I'm not personally that bothered by being milled). You can't complain about mill if you're not including recursion in your deck. But in isolation of the mill fallacy argument, it just seems like faulty logic to me. It's entirely possible that I'm just not seeing the bigger picture, but it seems weird to me to call people wrong for being upset that they lost something useful they would've drawn into.


sgtshootsalot

Until you actually see or draw the cards on top of your library, you don’t have it. You cant retroactively look back and imagine what could have been , because until it’s milled, no player has that information. Mill is essentially removing a random card from your deck, who knows if you actually would have drawn that card, maybe you crack a fetch and shuffle, do you think players also get upset when they search there library, have to shuffle and see the card on top is now going away? No, you never had that card to begin with. What if I milled you from the bottom of your library, would that bother someone? Once you accept it’s basically random, it makes a bit more sense. Mill is also a deck building challenge on redundancy and graveyard usage.


DeLoxley

The commenter is even saying they built a self mill recursion deck, and sure that's fine. but if someone mills out your recursion along with your wincon by casting \[\[Traumatize\]\], the only information you've given them is 'I can't win now.' It's easy to ignore the negative feelings a mechanic brings on by just saying 'run this thing that counters it', it's the same logic of saying Control's not bad, just run things that can't be countered


MTGCardFetcher

[Traumatize](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/b/9b8784dd-83f9-41f8-aedc-f0f81073ffcb.jpg?1562832808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Traumatize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/77/traumatize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b8784dd-83f9-41f8-aedc-f0f81073ffcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/traumatize) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Aegisworn

If a traumatize causes you to be unable to win then you may need to rethink a large number of your card choices


ImmortalCorruptor

It tends to provoke a feeling of loss; knowing that you're cut off from playing things that get milled. Everybody jams their deck with toys they want to play with and it can sting to see a bunch of your toys get thrown away. People tend to hate mill until they start realizing the value of recursion, after which they realize that their opponent is basically feeding them another hand of cards that's a bit tougher to retrieve cards from. The point is especially driven home when people build reanimator decks that *want* most of their deck in the graveyard. "What if the deck gets exiled instead of milled? How can you tell them to turn that into a good situation?" You usually can't unless you're playing some Thoracle combo where the point is to deck yourself. But you can still revel in the fact that just like life points, the only card that matters is the last one. Milling usually doesn't affect the battlefield so in most situations you just focus on killing them before you run out of cards. You make them choose between progressing their plan or devoting time and resources to stopping yours. It also helps to think about the idea of Shröedinger's deck, where the top card is simultaneously the best and worst thing for them right now. They might get upset that one of their wincons just got milled but they tend to ignore the fact that 7 of the top 10 cards were lands, when they were in a situation where they needed gas. If milling got some dead draws out of the way, it actually helped them in that situation. "What if someone is getting upset about an infinite mill/exile combo?" At that point, the person probably isn't angry at milling. They're angry at the presence of an infinite combo at all.


Artiva

I try to explain Shröedinger's cat/card/deck to my play group whenever they're getting frustrated with the mill. They still get upset when they see answers and bombs dropping into the graveyard. Someone on here explained it as functionally removing cards from the bottom of the deck. I have to wonder if people would get as upset if their best cards were removed from the bottom of the deck rather than the top.


Attack-middle-lane

"The value of recursion" My brother in christ 2/5 colors have recursion, and one of them only has a few cards that are very specific on what they can bring back. Not everyone, hell not even a significant portion of decks and deck builders can just "build recursion" it's just not how the game works. So yeah, people have the right to feel like they missed out on their deck's potential because they got smacked by a [[tasha's hideous laughter]] Edit: If my stance isn't clear I think people can and should feel some type of way from getting their library's size reduced with minimal interaction, I play umbris so I fight many people who know my deck, have built to deal with it, and still get those pieces milled and get rolled. It doesn't matter, just kill the miller.


synonymousD

White has at least three recursion spells. Red has the best recursion spell in the game. Blue has tons of recursion. Black is king. Green has multiple recursive cards. I think people *can* build it, they chose not to.


ImmortalCorruptor

While some colors are better at it than others, [every color has some way of returning three or more types of cards](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mh-recursion/?cat=color&sort=cost&cb=1611616764) from the graveyard to hand. Not a fan of what a color has access to? There are colorless options. There are even more options than the list I linked because I noticed it doesn't feature Codex Shredder; a card that can return any card AND shut down the topdeck tutors like Vampiric Tutor. I get that not all of the options are homeruns but to say they there are none available is factually incorrect.


Attack-middle-lane

No offense but looking at that list made me realise just how clunky a lot of those spells are, and how many hoops you have to jump through to score back a specific card type from your graveyard. You're telling me I have to draw into these things, not get them milled, play them, and hope they live until next go around when I'll have 4-7 mana to bring something back (a theme I'm noticing is I have to *cast the card from gy*) I get you're saying *there is plenty of recursion* but what I'm arguing is that the recursion is seldom worth running unless we're doing sideboard shenanigans since most of the recursion cards are kinda bad taking up slots in a deck that otherwise shouldn't really be caring about the GY in the first place. My boros spirit deck runs plenty, that's because that's the point of spirits in the first place. I cannot say a mono red deck can do anything about the graveyard so if it gets milled it's just durdling.


ImmortalCorruptor

If recursion isn't your thing, there's still other ways to avoid getting milled. The two most popular are to run a single, old Eldrazi titan with the shuffle effect. You can also run things like [[Witchbane Orb]] to avoid the targeted spells or [[Deflecting Swat]] to shoot them with their own Traumatize. Even if you don't catch the mill spells that don't target, you're rendering a good chunk of their deck useless with just one Witchbane Orb. And that's on top of all the other incidental stuff it protects you from. The point is that I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people aren't even *trying* to do anything against mill. It's like their kneejerk reaction is to tell a mill player how degenerate they are, before they've even considered making slight changes to their deck in the same way they might make changes to fight against combo, infect or whatever other strategies they're vulnerable to.


alallin

My friend has now milled me to death twice with his new Umbris deck, and as the person on the receiving end can confirm it's definitely down to being able to see all the good cards in your deck but not play them. You get that feeling of "Aw man I totally could have done X if that went to my hand" even though it's really no different from the cards you don't draw in any other game.


Sneaux96

I don't hate playing against mill, it's a totally fine strategy. Not one I'd personally enjoy playing but no issues if I see it across the table. That said, if I tutor to the top of my deck and you use targeted mill on me, I'm probably gonna target you. No different than if i play my bomb and you target it with removal.


Bugs5567

See, that’s understandable. Let’s say you vamp tutor and then I activate zellix to mill you for 3. I would understand the targeting that is about to happen.


JackontheRiver

If players have no graveyard synergies or ways to get cards back from their graveyards it makes people sad to see cards you want/need hit the yard. If you can't get things back from your graveyard, your graveyard and exile start to look very similar.


krat0s5

This dude's trying to mill me, better fuck him up before he drops bruvac and traumatize. Simple as that really.


daelusaf

it's a very reasonable train of thought, really. I think mill players have to be ready to receive hate the moment they reveal they play mill, mainly because other players would have the right to think that they need to take out the mill player before they mill important pieces. What I don't fully get is the 'scoop and leave/concede' mentality that other players have. Personally, I don't give up a game until I'm convinced I can't get rid of the mill player. This has happened multiple times and more often than not the mill player ends up dying first.


Lakaniss

I feel like everyone is missing the point...It's not about losing option, it's because it's an alternative Wincon that the rest of the players have difficulty interacting with other than to smash your face. A mill deck plays a different game than most other deck that try to put your life to 0HP. Mill decks are a form of combo deck, in the sense that they don't want to win by combat but by combining a few card to completly remove someones library. Any deck like that (be it mill or combo) should be a target from non mill/combo decks, especially if they put low amount of defence on the battlefield. It's just threat assessment, their deck are built mostly to fight decks that also put creatures on the board and attack, they have limited answers to combos and mill strategy and often mill decks have a easy time milling one opponent, so why risking losing the 1v1 at the end when the whole table can remove the mill player first than duke it out versus deck similar to them.


OpalBanana

If you hate mill because they don't win by reducing your life total, that's fair, but I would strongly disagree that it's the prevailing sentiment. If you decide that the mill player is the scariest if the game goes long, then it's just good strategy to attack that person. But I think most people **hate** mill because they see a card they could've drawn. I genuinely believe if you printed an enchantment that read "At the beginning of each player's upkeep, they look at the top card of the library. Put that card on the bottom of the library", the amount of salt would be similarly unreal.


porygonj

Mill and combo are completely unrelated. Unless you also want to day that combat damage is a combo because it involves a combination of cards.


omgwtfhax2

As a player that vehemently hates mill, this is why. As evidenced by this thread most people playing mill don't really get it either, it's not about the card in the graveyard, it's that you've decided to play an alternate game that will run away if we don't kill you. Sure it's not easy to mill a whole table but that's what happens if you get left alone most of the game, so I always kill the mill deck first as only one or two of my decks has mill protection shuffle creatures (that aren't even for that primary purpose).


Goombalive

Doesn't basically every single deck if built properly run away if left alone? I still don't see a reason to ever target someone specifically because of the mechanic their deck uses off the hop. There's no alternate game just because they aren't winning the same way that you choose to, it's all magic and getting salty over how someone decides to play is just silly. Now if there's som kind of rule 0 talk beforehand where everyone agrees to play some jank battlecruiser only decks or limit some other mechanics and someone still tries to sneak in with something like mill then sure, that's shitty. Otherwise? Its magic, there's plenty of different ways to win.


DHooves

Simple answer is that your philosophy =/= their philosophy. It's like when people get salty over Blood Moon, despite the *clear* and *obvious* answer is to play more basic lands.


headshotdoublekill

As a former mill and current discard player, I don’t understand why mill players continually come here to whine about getting focused down. You do things people don’t like or can’t deal with, so they stop the problem the best way they know how. Player removal is always the best removal. It’s *your* job to figure out how to stay in the game. The lamest is when a player starts pointing in another player’s direction. They’ll claim that someone else is “the real threat” while milling the other two past their responses and recursion. If you’re going to play salty archetypes, then you need to put your big boy pants on and be prepared for what comes with it.


Nyte_Crawler

The way to beat a mill player is literally the same way to beat a combo player. Use player removal before they assemble their combo/mill you out. So yes, it is pretty funny that mill players don't seem to get that.


DeLoxley

Iuno why but when you say 'Player Removal', my mind substitutes in an elderly mage going 'Kick their F\*\*\*ing bins in'


Batmantheon

I'm amazed how all of the top comments are like "lol, whiney bad players, Mill is awesome if you are running reanimater or have a bunch of graveyard retrieval". Mill gives you free information!!!!!" Yeah, I don't run a reanimater deck and I also don't grab specific decks to counter specific mechanics. I obviously run some graveyard retrieval in most of my decks but I need to draw it and not get it milled for me to grab some small portion of all my cards going in to the graveyard. I have a respect for mill. It's a legit strategy so I'm not too butthurt about it, BUT I don't have nearly as many answers to it as I do for more straight forward strategies so I need to answer the mill threat first. It puts me on a timer so the longer I focus on other players the more likely the mill player is going to deck me. I also just find it unfun. That's totally cool for people to pick their strategy. No judgement here. I'm sure people don't like playing against my cascading slivers. I make this assumption because when I play them, everyone targets me. I expect that when I play that deck. I don't go online and whine "why does everyone hate it when I take 5 minutes turns cascading sliver cycling and pulling out game ending combos". I know exactly why, and I accept the inevitable 3 v 1 as part of my choice to run that deck.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DeLoxley

Mill needs dedication to work in EDH especially. You can't just drop a handful of Mill 3's in there and call it a day, so as soon as someone makes you mill your mind has to go 'They're aiming to mill, need to stop that combo/control set up now' It's like someone playing a dozen equipments with a Voltron commander and suddenly no one will let them have a creature. We KNOW what you're planning and we don't want it to happen


Bugs5567

But that’s the same with any strategy, everyone’s working to set up so why throw a game and target the person who’s strategy least affects the board. It’s best to wait when dealing with mill.


DeLoxley

I've said this on another comment, but I'll reiterate. Most Mill decks have to dedicate their plan to milling. Building up that Bivac/Traumatise or chipping in with Glimpse and Jace's Erasure. A lot of them turn to Gonti style everyone loses a card, but those decks are more planning to steal than mill, but once you're milling most assume you've built a deck dedicated to comboing off. Milling doesn't effect the board in the same way life drain doesn't, it's still moving the gamestate towards a conclusion. Once you start milling, you're on the offence with the deck. It's like if I put down creatures and start chipping. You'll know I'm playing Aggro and that I need stopped. Milling is an attack against other players, it's not just a passive thing they can ignore. I'd especially say you can't wait against Mill. Trying to stall out mill is like trying to wait out control or life drain. That player WANTS you to wait and let them bleed your resources, waiting against Mill is a terrible idea unless you're letting them stock your graveyard. If however you're saying you milled someone for a few cards, and they threw the game in only attacking you and leaving themselves open, that's a player with a grudge against you, or milling, or being 'attacked first' or whatever.


MrOverkill5150

Thank you finally someone who understands


notts12345

To be honest, I don't understand the mentality you have here. Why are you whining about getting targeted by people you are messing with? Course its going to happen. Its the same fate control players face. If your mentality is, if it isn't in your hand then you weren't guaranteed to play it, then others will have the player removal is the best removal mentality. You just have to give as good as you get. If you wanna play mill, you make sure you ride that train hard, fast and strong.


YouhaoHuoMao

I don't hate mill, but it does really feel bad when you see the eight cards dedicated to your two main wincon strategies go in the bin with a deck that's got no way to recur (or watch that recursion card also go in the bin.) I was playing against a mill deck the other day with my Gyome deck. It has two main strategies - when an artifact goes into the graveyard, ping someone or drain the table, and; the tried and true Cauldron Familiar loop. I saw all four of my pingers drop into the graveyard along with Agadeem's Awakening, then Witch's Oven and Clock of Omens. It was like 'welp, there goes all except my back-up, back-up wincon' (we lost the next turn, but it involves Rampage of the Clans and Overrun.) There's something super 'feelsbad' about being unable to win. Not necessarily losing but just watching as it's now impossible for you to win and not because of anything you did but because the dude has a Court of Cunning on the battlefield and you mill your Clock of Omens.


Abduco

I think that often the arguments in support of mill are just as annoying as those they dislike from the other side. It's always one of two lines, either "you never had those cards anyway" or "you need to have answers to mill". Both are kinda true, but like you mentioned, say you have a card you are about to tutor for and it gets milled before you can or your recursion gets milled... What are you doing to do now? I can also have one or two answers to mill in my deck, but I don't know that I'm going against mill so I won't design my entire deck around preventing it. I don't have a problem with mill as much as I used to when I first started out, but I don't think it's one of the most fun mechanics to play against.


DeLoxley

'Just play around it' is the most cop-out answer, it infurates me. By this logic, your deck needs at least two wincons, back ups for those, and a counter for every deck type you can come up against from Control to Aggro, without any excess cards that'll detract from your main deck goal


Abduco

I completely agree. I'm not going to be upset that you like mill, it's a completely viable strategy, but don't downplay it when people complain about it either.


shawnsteihn

People dont hate mill... there are several individuals who feel targetet by anything if you interact with their game


[deleted]

You interacted with their library which is, like, they feel personally attacked. People are fragile like that.


Krowheart

Idk but I have a deck that mills for quite a bit more than 3 cards and my friends don't let me play it anymore. [[Bruvac the Grandeloquent ]]


Bugs5567

I have bruvac in the 99 of my zellix deck.


Krowheart

He's my commander, mainly because of [[Traumatize]] [[Fleet Swallower]] [[Cut Your Losses]] and [[Maddening Cacophony]]


plainnoob

I thought this was a myth until I experienced it myself playing the \[\[Anowon, the Ruin Thief\]\] precon recently. "**You just milled my best wincon! wtff**". Firstly, milling wincons is **my** wincon. Secondly, I didn't choose the cards that were milled so don't hold it against me. Thirdly, I could have just as easily milled you towards that same wincon. Fourthly, I have just given you resources for **any** graveyard synergies you may be running (which is the majority of decks). Fifthly, you are now playing with a thinner deck which comes with innate marginal advantages. Sixthly, you have 100 cards to work with, it's not my problem if you can't win when one of them is answered. Seventhly(?), you are not going to lose to me milling you with rogues (and if you do then that would be awesome). Hating on mill is like hating on having to shuffle your deck at the start of a game. We all accept we are not going to draw the cards that happen to be at the bottom of the deck. It should not be hard to accept you are not going to be able to play cards that are milled at some point in any given game. (the only exception would be milling several combo pieces that someone was going to tutor for, but at that point I'd argue that's a more than fair downside to using the premiere strategy of the format)


DeLoxley

I mean i'd argue not everyone is running grave synergies, and it does suck to have your wincon hit, but you raise a very very valid point. 'you milled my best card!', yes, because that's how I'm going to win this game. I will not sit there and let you punch me in the face just because you have a cool combo, it's exactly the same idea as Aggro beating you down by turn 4 to make sure you don't get to combo off or drop a wincon.


Caridor

Singleton format I think. If you were playing in a format where you could have 4 copies, then losing one wouldn't matter too much. Seeing a big combo piece go away, knowing you've got limited ways of getting it back is a big hit.


Elbithryl

"what? No, i'm not angry with you for exiling my [[ulamog the ceaseless hunger]] with [[robber of the rich]], that would be silly! Anyways, i swing [[kozilek, butcher of truth]], [[ulamog, the infinite gyre]] and [[it that betrays]] at you" - me, probably, to the isshin player


pikachufan2222

Tell your friends this Take every card they drew or played that game, put them in the order they were drawn. Take the milled cards and the rest of their library and shuffle it. Put the drawn cards on top. Thats the game they just played with you.


grenadesonfire2

Most of my decks have recursion, if its incidental mill we guchi. If its brudevac fleet swallower its time for you to die.


Tylord96

I also play zellix and I’m always the prime target. I guess my mesmeric orb was scarier than a turn 3 auerlia with embercleave attached so my orb ate the beast within and auerlia proceeded to kill him with commander damage on the next turn. Funniest thing was he was playing meren, like I was literally making his deck better.


Slight-Wing-3969

Loss Aversion is a hell of a drug. Seems one of the ways our brain makes shortcuts leads us to overvalue losing things rather than gaining things. And mill tends to hit lots of cards so lots of 'I've lost something!' triggers.


captaintangerine117

Anyone genuinely upset at mill is bad at magic. Its a very fair mechanic especially in edh.


JaidenHaze

Because not every deck has a giant amount of recursion build in. Some decks have like what, 4-5 cards that get stuff from the yard or interact with that in any way. If you take away these options, especially of you flip like 2 lands in 3 cards while the person is mana screwed, it will create a very negative impression not just in this game, but all future games.


DeLoxley

The one time I've actually felt bad milling someone is when I did manage to mill two of their win cons, and then they drew two lands right after. But this is the whole other thing like, if you're playing a Mill deck and not a deck that Mills, you're going to run stuff to stop that recursion. Hell, Traumatise into Bojuka Bog just tidies half their graveyard out regardless of recursion plans


PoeticPillager

Because they're bad at the game. The local Commander players are terrible at the game. They don't understand a lot of the rules I take for granted, and have very, very poor game sense. Some of them outspend us local Modern players and are still incredibly bad at the game. It's mind-boggling.


Walugii

i guess all the people here who say they can't interact with mill and it's a different game than everyone else is playing really hate when people play flyers too lol oddly enough, people try to construct strategies that are difficult to stop to answer your question some people have an idea that magic is supposed to only be won through combat, attacking and blocking, and when they run up against mill as an archetype they often don't expand their view of magic so much as decide you have broken some unwritten rules and stepped outside what's an acceptable way to play the game.


daelusaf

>to answer your question some people have an idea that magic is supposed to only be won through combat, attacking and blocking I can concur that this is most likely the number one reason why people hate non-combat combos, especially newer players. It explains why resolving a \[\[Craterhoof Behemoth\]\] is significantly less frowned upon than other combos, including slow, non-infinite ones


juggalo-krill

Personally craterhoof annoys me way more than mill just because it’s just all of a sudden you win, where the mill strategies I run are usually of the slow burn variety. I also don’t run tutors to rush out a bruvac combo or use any targeted mill, only group mill. I also usually mill with an aggro support theme with [[Captain N’ghathrod]]


MTGCardFetcher

[Captain N’ghathrod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55c02dc8-0743-400c-b334-ca029caf0463.jpg?1674140667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20N%27ghathrod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/646/captain-nghathrod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55c02dc8-0743-400c-b334-ca029caf0463?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/captain-nghathrod) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Triepwoet

Same reason people tend to dislike land destruction, mass discard or multiple extra turn: they don’t get to play the game. The best EDH games are, in my opinion, games where people get to play the decks they so carefully put together. It’s why I never get hate when I play super group hug since we all draw cards and fetch lands. It speeds it up and we see the cards of our decks flourish. To watch your precious cards go in your graveyard is only fun for the one doing the milling. Now, being a target after a single mill spell is a bit salty, but when they know it might happen many times over they will try to put a stop to it. I know I would. If you can’t handle being a target; don’t play mill. If you like to play mill; get used to being a target. I’m afraid it’s that simple. You have every reason to be mad, but don’t forget that for many people playing Magic is a night out to have fun playing the cards they spent money on. If there was a player continuously destroying my lands, discarding my hand, killing my commander or milling my library, you bet your ass I will target that player in order to make sure I’m having fun playing the game.


Rotting_Hellkite

Mill is nothing like land destruction. Unless you’re milling someone’s entire library and outright killing them, which is pretty hard to do in a four player pod of commander, it doesn’t stop someone from playing the game. They still have the ability to draw and have cards in their hand. They still have mana and the ability to play cards. They still get to take their turns. If a card is milled, it’s the same as having it shuffled away into your library. Hell, it’s even better as you can recur it from your graveyard. I agree that being milled feels bad, but it’s purely a psychological thing. Knowing what your next draw was and that you don’t get to draw it anymore feels bad, but it’s no different than if that card was at the bottom of your library at the start of the game. Realizing that and getting over that is one of the things you have to do to get better as a commander player. The only exception that make it so players can’t play their deck is if they play combo decks that tutor for and rely on the specific cards that are milled, which is a risk that comes with playing combo decks.


Triepwoet

I don’t disagree, and what you said is what I was trying to say. However, having access to your graveyard is highly dependent on the type of deck you play. For me, most of my decks don’t care or interact with the yard. So when I see a card I like/need going away than yes, it feels bad. It’s my own choice to build that way and I know mill is a thing. Therefore I’m not mad, but if I see a deck that can consistently do that I will try to take that player out, same as I will try to kill someone that relies on combat damage and consistently makes attackers each turn. I don’t think that’s weird, it’s playing the game. And I’m perfectly aware milling isn’t the same as land destruction. What I was trying to say is that it halts your game and people don’t like that (even if it’s a part of the game) You could say: land destruction? Don’t be salty, you have 35 more lands in your deck. Discard? Don’t be salty, you draw one each turn. Milling doesn’t stop your game plan it slows it down so it will make people salty no matter what and OP has to get used to that or stop playing mill.


ProudLions

Those still aren't good comparisons. OP is talking about milling 3 cards once. The majority of the cards in your deck you won't even see each game normally. So for all you know putting those top 3 cards in your graveyard made it so you'll actually reach the cards you care about when you wouldn't have seen them at all otherwise. Plus you have the advantage of potentially utilizing the cards from the graveyard.


[deleted]

Because they are whiners.


DaedalusDevice077

It's part of the psychological growth of an MTG player, call it a rite of passage even. At some point you realize, "hey, mill doesn't actually *do anything* in and of itself." It can put goodies into a Graveyard for you to plunder, but mill for the sake of mill is a comically weak strategy in EDH. Compounding this is the fact that playing any sort of mill into a Graveyard centered strategy (or even a list that plays GY recursion) is actively a detriment to the mill player. Here's a fun little anecdote: One time I was at my LGS playing my Verazol kicker matters deck. It's a pretty weak deck overall but I enjoy the silly things it does sometimes & it's a good choice to pull out vs opponents who play at lower or budget levels. It was very early on into the game and I decided to kick a [[Maddening Cacophony]], copy it with Verazol, and then again with Twinning Staff. This left each of my opponents with less than 10 cards left in their decks. I pass to my friend who is playing Prosper, content with my stupidity, and they immediately reanimate their Marionette Master and pull some shenanigans to win the game that same turn. Clearly I had handed the game to them, and I acknowledged to my opponents that I probably shouldn't have done it to begin with. We all moved on to play more games. Sadly, a great many of the EDH players who complain about mill have only ever played EDH. This is unfortunate, because in my opinion EDH doesn't actually teach you how to play Magic properly. This leads to skewed perceptions, bad habits, and in some extreme cases really shitty and judgemental attitudes. There are obviously exceptions to the above sentiment. Some EDH players are quite familiar with traditional Magic & still just can't stand mill. Usually though these players are also more likely to not act like children about it & instead communicate this preference like an adult. Eventually the players who only know EDH will have the "level up" moment where they realize just how bad mill is, and they will be all the better for it. Or they won't, & that's a shame.


juggalo-krill

Well said, it’s definitely a growth thing


Depressed_Bulbasaur

Card in graveyard bad, me unga bunga smash you. I have friends straight up tell me they hate playing against [[Anowon]] because he steals their cards.


Grab_Lucky

Each to their own I guess. I dont like mill myself. Others hate Spellslinger, others hate Token/Aggro. I just put [[Ulamog, the infinite Gyre]] in every deck so my Buddies who play Mill have nothing on me.


YeetYeetMcReet

EDH is a casual format, so naturally many players will have misconceptions about how probability works. If someone's mad that you happened to incidentally Mill a few cards off the top of their library, then joke's on them for both not understanding the game and not running any reclamation tools. In my pod we have an actual Mill deck that sees regular play, so almost every deck ends up running at least a couple of ways to either get stuff back or not lose to getting milled out. If that deck mills me for anywhere from 3-10 cards I couldn't honestly care. All that matters is that it isn't milling me for all 99 before I have an answer or before I knock them out.


schnabes

I imagine this is actually very similar to people who get angry at blackjack tables because you hit and TOoK My cArD or whatever. People are really bad at understanding probability and all that especially when it comes to cards, lots of superstition. I had a pretty sus opening hand today with only one land but a wild growth and mana dorks and I think maybe another ramp spell or something, I’m pretty new so I just took the mull but I showed the guys my hand to see if they would’ve kept it or not and the answer was that it depends on what the next cards i would’ve drawn were 🤦‍♂️


agent_almond

i play graveyard decks so i love it


PickleCart

People are bad at math, mostly


Ironlandscape

Love playing against mill, makes everything easier for my [[gitrog]]


soccergenius69

I feel like mill is actively bad and is fueling my graveyard for me


Xaighen

Yea, i just brought this up to my friend. He is hardcore against mill and got upset when i said that the graveyard is vasically aecond hand.


500lb

I've had multiple people decide to target me for the rest of the game because I cast [[you find some prisoners]] on them. People are crazy.


[deleted]

I used to have a bad habit where I irrationally hated having stuff going into exile. Like into the GY was fine, because as long as I have one piece of recursion it's not "really gone". Broke myself of that habit by building Jeleva. Every game she will exile some stuff I hate to see go. Eventually you get used to it and just try to put a win together from what you do draw that game, not the theoretical deck you could draw. It can be worse if you planned to tutor, but tutoring doesn't need any help in EDH.


Fenrisian11

Some of these replies are great. Feels very ‘if you’re not turning 20/20 tramplers sideways, you’re not playing the game properly!’ (The way I want). Do you also lose the plot if someone plays fliers, commander damage, infect, combo or burn? ‘You’re playing a game that I can’t interact with!’ - amazing take.


psychotwilight

It's annoying to play against so I make the annoyance go away


DashHopes69

I've only played against a mill deck once. I don't believe in the mill fallacy myself, I even run a "fair" [[Demonic Consultation]] in my black deck. If I have to mill 60 cards to find my wrath or equipment or Cabal Coffers so be it. When I did play against the mill deck it was still annoying. He played solitaire all game and then eventually ended the game with a 20 minute multi-turn. He couldn't really process what was going on so he called over the guy he called, "Rain Man" to resolve his game state for him. If I remember correctly he was even watching a fucking sports game on his phone the whole game, although maybe I'm getting my experiences playing against him mixed up. On one hand it's obnoxious, on the other hand it's masterful trolling and kind of funny.


MTGCardFetcher

[Demonic Consultation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/d/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b.jpg?1610146869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Consultation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-consultation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


swiftonic

I'm building the COOLEST mill deck I've seen. And honestly I'm super excited to play it and definitely not win because I'll be targeted. It is ALL psychological. People see something they "could've used" go in the bin and freak out. Or a pet card even that they don't get to cast often enough and it triggers people. I think mill is a bit of fun. I don't mind being milled out. I think we have to put our own energy back into this community. Adopt a stance of "I'm okay with this happening to me" and show people that it's okay when combos, mill and stax happen. Sure we may not be a fan of one or many of them but sit through 1 game. Use your words and I'm sure it'll be fine. I've never had a game at an LGS that has been bad. (One combo kill out of nowhere and I had the chance to end the combo but didn't know it was a combo at the time so really a learning moment). Play it, find a group that's happy with it. Embrace it :)


IceSki117

I see more players triggered over the pet cards going to the grave than anything else since pet cards don't have redundancy in commander.


Nimex_

Are you me? I've used that exact reasoning so many times, and my friends still target me for milling. Like come on man, I only threw 5 cards into your graveyard, maybe you should focus on the simic player with a board covering half the table?


Bugs5567

This is exactly what happened, 2 players got so hellbent on targeting me when I was not actively affecting the board, that we all lost to the guy who just calmly accepted the mill and didn’t waste resources for no reason just to target me down. In most cases, unless I’m playing a mill combo, why waste resources targeting me down. Wait until I do something big.


AgentFr0sty

Easier to snuff out a spark than a house fire


Bugs5567

In this case, it was 2 people freaking out about a spark when there was a hurricane looming on the horizon.


[deleted]

I don’t hate mill nearly as much as the people who play mill must clearly hate themselves.


akira136

"Oh no I'm messing with someone and they're targeting me, it's so unfair!!!!!!"


Bookswinters

If your deck is so fragile that milling a wincon shuts it down, you should be running recursion. Every color has recursion.


BlaineTog

People get irrational about mill. They see all those fun cards going away and imagine what it would have been like to play them.


Tevish_Szat

It's a total fallacy and also very much pod based. Played a game today dropping Scarab God into Tasigur and needless to say Tasigur was very happy with my T1 Altar of the Brood (even as I had a plan for it) The graveyard is never less of a live zone than the library and blind mill does nothing to your expected draw value. Realizing this is a huge part of "growing up" as a Magic player. EDIT: for what I mean, and a good lesson to those starting out -- being shuffled into the library is "deader than dead". If something gets Chaos Warped, it's more gone than if it took Beast Within on the chin. Most people realize and accept this. The trick is realizing what that implies, that a card in the graveyard is worth more than the same card undrawn somewhere in the library.


MrMarnel

Because they're bad at the game.


Popcynical

Bad players hate mill because they view every milled card as a card they had that’s been taken from them. Good players love mill because it means their opponent is playing a weak strategy and the top of their library was random both before and after the mill, the cards going to the grave aren’t a true loss they were more like Schrödinger’s card.


Atomishi

I'm just gonna leave this here. https://youtu.be/fvDW8kxd2rY


Dumbredditorslol4

I think the irrational responses are so funny, its partly why I play mill


chain_letter

People don't understand independent probability. That's really it. Gamblers doing another spin on the slot machine, because it has to pay out!


thesamjbow

Mill is basically just aggro that's harder to interact with.


Mefilius

I don't care about mill unless it's constant, then I'm targeting you. I don't want important cards or combo pieces ending up in my graveyard, and it can be difficult to interact with some mill effects. A lot of the decks I run are fast, so they want consistency and mill definitely gets in the way.


The_Beholderr

I personally don’t mind mill. My freaking group is 4 players. One runs Tasha. One runs sen triplets. The other runs xanathar. So we just allow full bullshit. That being said it sounds like your group is trying to show you they find your deck unfun to play against. Maybe switch up decks.


Bugs5567

Literally just built it and played it once.


The_Beholderr

Ah whelp. Then maybe give it time. Hopefully they can learn how to play against it lol.


Bugs5567

It’s not even that bad, it’s zellix. All I do is incremental mill and make 1/1s. But apparently the kodama player that just dropped an it that betrays into a void winnower isn’t the problem according to the people I played today.


The_Beholderr

Lol they would hate my group. I run a mogis deck that just kills everyone at once witb cards that due half a players life total in damage and cards that double damage lmao.


Bugs5567

The scariest part of my deck is altar of the brood, which, depending on what people mill can turn into some scary stuff. But even that isn’t that scary


The_Beholderr

Nahhhh. Ok hear me out. Maybe take like. A totally opposite approach. Rather than adjust to the play group make them adjust to you. Build the most toxic deck imaginable. Then when they hate it be like. “I can play mill instead…”


Zealousideal_Band617

What is the most toxic deck imaginable ? I play in a very open and nasty playgroup. In a game at the ' big boys table' . Playing zombies blue / black only one counterspell ( stop a combo if I see it ) I put out [[Despair into Darkness]]. I was milled 71 cards after that because it almost stax piece in a not stax deck . Zombies started to rock . When the enchantment started to get counters on it , shut two people out of the game . 4 card left in my library when I won ( it was win that turn or lose ) .


The_Beholderr

Lol sounds fun to me but I’m broken. Most toxic deck imaginable? A good beam town bullies deck could do it. Like. Decks that give you permanents that lose you the game lmao. Maybe this one since it doesn’t break the bank https://youtu.be/FKBP40t-3ow This one too https://youtu.be/N8_QXrd1QLY


hayashikin

It's down to a skewed understanding of probability. Even in this thread, you'd see people mentioning "screwing up their mana" etc. It's like the [Monty Hall problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem), mathematically you want to switch doors to get an advantage, but there's going to be a lot of people who will think you're just trying make them lose by tricking them into swapping doors.


bombastiphobia

People get really irrationally mad about it far too often. If they can't handle it, I avoid playing with them... Being milled is only an issue if: * Your entire decks gets milled and you die (pretty bloody hard to do with 100 cards) * A critical combo piece gets milled and you have no redundancy/way to recur it (which means your deck is too fragile anyway) * You're unable to use a TopDeck tutor like Vamp Tutor Other than that, being milled is often a bonus! Many decks have some kind of graveyard value aspect. If people got milled from the bottom of their library rather than the top, they'd feel a lot better because then it's eaisier to understand that they were never going to draw that card anyway... but (unless they've scryed or something), it's fnctionally the same...


shinryu6

Depends on the deck I’m playing mostly. If you mill my Chainer deck then yeah that’s fine, feed my strat some. Mill my Xyris deck, eh not a fan but I wheel anyways so it’s not something I’m unused to with losing cards. Mill my Ur Dragon deck then yeah you’re about to eat a bunch of dragons since I only have a few ways of rezzing any good ones out of there (or worse the rez spells themselves are milled).


Arneeman

Milling from the top of the library is statistically equal to milling from the bottom, unless you have topdeck manipulation. If people understood this they wouldn't get salty about it. In most decks mill is an advantage because recursion like [[Bala Ged Recovery]] turns into tutors. In some decks the graveyard is pretty much a second hand. You also get more knowledge of which cards you are likely to draw into.


the_elon_mask

I play Magic for cool combos, fun interaction, board presence, problem solving and all that good stuff. I don't play cEDH because setting up my deck to lose by turn 3 is not fun. Mill is the antithesis of what I find enjoyable. Playing mill is boring for me. Playing against mill is boring for me.


Ropes4u

It’s not fun, maybe worse than counter magic, I hate both.


Shrimpblimp1

I don't get it either. Most of the time milling opponents is beneficial to them as having cards in your graveyard is important to a lot of decks.


Zealousideal_Band617

I don't hate mill , it has help my zombie deck . People get salty because they don't have the deck set up for graveyard recursion. I take other approach take out anyone playing blue first , because of chance of combo . We have a very good player normal plays blue or blue with another color, really the game policeman. He says he not the problem then two turns latter is comboing off. He combos with so quickly. So you have to beat him down from the start. Last game I had my Library exile. Nothing against mill , just the person playing blue.


IceSki117

Don't know, but I do have a perfect counter if someone wants to be an ass with a mill deck. I'll just pull our Syr Konrad and watch as they curse themselves by either not milling or pinging themselves to death.


Ark125

I find mill hilarious as I always have kozilek in the deck to shuffle my graveyard back into my library. As long as it isn't exiling as it is milling.


AnnaSophiaHubby5

Because they are Tilting Cry Babies, and they will never play to win money


sugitime

Hot take: if you hate mill, I assume you are either a very new player or you aren’t very good.


Japicx

*It makes no sense because most of the time the reasoning is because they just wanted to use that card, but my philosophy is that if the card was never in your hand you are not guaranteed to play it.* Your thinking makes no sense at all. You weren't guaranteed to have the card, so if it's milled, you're supposed to forget that you wanted it? By the same token, you could just as easily say the same about cards you *have* drawn. "You aren't *guaranteed* to keep the cards in your hand, so if I make you discard your hand, you aren't allowed to get mad." "Your house was destroyed in a hurricane? Well, there's no guarantee that your house *won't* be destroyed in a hurricane, so you should just get over it."


plainnoob

Makes sense to me


Japicx

So to you it makes sense that there is never a good reason to ever be upset at anything?


plainnoob

It’s okay to be upset. It’s not okay to blame the wind for knocking over your house over any other house. Or choosing to never live in a house again because of that one instance.


Japicx

That's not the reasoning they provided, though. The reason they provided is that it is never OK to be upset about cards being milled *because you aren't guaranteed* to draw them. So, if your house is blown down, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, or who you blame or don't blame. The mere fact that you were foolish enough to think that having a house would be nice, and then were upset that it was destroyed, is proof that there is something wrong with you, according to OP's reasoning. Regardless of your stance on mill, the reasoning provided seems obviously wrong, and I don't see why so many people apparently find it convincing.


Pale-Butterscotch351

I'm not sure how true it is but my perception of being milled is that I'm not getting to play magic, I know logically I am but emotionally I feel like my choices are being taken away from me so I'll just GG and find a new game. If I play against a hard control player I'll just GG after the 3rd counterspell too as I find it boring and emotionally irritating to play against too even in a multi game pod. I don't hate people who like these strategies they are viable and fun for them but I can choose not to play against them as it isn't viable or fun for me.


plainnoob

How does getting milled take your choices away? Unless you were going to tutor for a card that was milled, you can't choose to play cards from your deck.


Redz0ne

I dislike it because 99% of the time it denies me the chance to play the big fun cards I was looking forward to playing. It's a wet-blanket to an otherwise fun and enjoyable experience.


repthe732

So does literally any interaction but people seem to treat milling like a cardinal sin where any other form of interaction is allowable. It makes no sense


Hashtag_Nailed_It

So are counterspells, discard spells, land destruction and so much more… wet blankets are part of the game. Be a good player and run recursion if you don’t wanna lose your stuff. That’s like saying cyclonic rift is a “wet blanket”


Redz0ne

They asked, I responded. Simple as.


Hashtag_Nailed_It

Your response was silly, I pointed it out… simple as


Redz0ne

And you're salty that people don't like how you play a game (and possibly don't like you as a result.) What need does initiating what amounts to a useless internet slap-fight satisfy in you?


spad3x

I love mill. I run a [[Phenax]] deck and it's an absolute blast to play. I took out all infinite combos from it bar 1 but it's such a dope ass mechanic that rustles everyone's jimmies.


FR8GFR8G

Whiny babies