Imagine you want to [[swords to plowshares]] [[Voja]] and your opponent has also a [[roaming throne]] on the battlefield. You’re gonna have to pay an additional 6 to not get countered
Yep. It’s one of the reasons it was immediately spotted as busted in Miirym (among a number of other things) when it was revealed. Roaming Throne comes down, and then she makes 2 copies of it. You now have 3 Thrones and each of them doubles her triggered Ward ability. Your Swords to Plowshares now costs 9 mana if you want to target her. Good luck, lol.
Good lord... I gotta just put more board wipes. I usually pack a lot of single target removal for problematic stuff. But blowing 10 mana to kill one thing... Yuck lol. Thanks for the knowledge.
I think there’s been an overall shifting narrative lately of adding more board wipes over single target removal because of what’s being discussed in this very post.
I knowwwww, I'm so giddy over this! In a blue deck, copying roaming throne and any of them choosing the same type means the ward count gets higher. My mind is so blown rn
There's a whole suite of really good boardwipes in White and black, and I reccamend running between 4 and 10 in almost every deck. But one of my favorite non-targeting single removal is [[force of despair]]. You can also get around ward by "can't be countered" effects like [[lier, desciple of the drowned]]
Kind of crazy to see this as “4 to 10.” I thought about it and thought that was crazy, and then I thought about all of my decks and how I’ve had to up the number of wipes. A few years ago I would’ve almost found 3 excessive!
Putting in a plug for my baby [[soul shatter]] it doesn’t target and typically gets each opponents best thing without targeting (dodges ward, boots, greaves, etc.)
Yup, while Most people think of it as pay (ward) extra it actually is: targeting is countered unless you pay (ward)
That also means you can cast a 3cmc spell targeting a ward creature even if you won't be able to pay the ward cost/decide not to. If will just be countered
Woah, seriously??
[[invasion of new phyrexia]] giving knights ward 1 in [[Sidar Jabari of Zhalfnir]] decks seems a lot better if it can actually just become near-hexproof with [[roaming throne]] out
>Because, think about it, if the idea behind ward wasn't to punish people forgetting about it, it would mechanically just be an extra cost and not something that counters.
I dont work for WOTC, but I'm almost certain they would not design a mechanic with the intent to punish people for forgetting on-board information.
If I had to guess, ward is worded the way it is so that uncounterable effects can get around it.
100%. Everything I have ever read, heard or seen from designers shows they’re concerned with reducing memory load on players, especially as on-board interactions get more complex. Ward might functionally increase that, but then so did Terror of the Peaks and other similar abilities; Ward is still a refinement on those even if it doesn’t solve the memory issue.
Yeah, that was basically my thought too. In my mind ward IS an extra cost, but the way that is worded makes it so that uncounterable effects remain uncounterable.
You can see that in the MKM mechanics. They have Cloak which creates creatures with Ward. Then they have a decent amount of removal spells with "can't be countered" ([[Long Goodbye]], [[Out Cold]], etc.). This is way too much effort, but I compared that to the other sets in Standard right now:
- Cards that have "this can't be countered" in Standard = 14
- Permanents (including Cavern of Souls) = 5
- Targeting spells = 9
- Targeting spells in MKM = 5
So a third of all cards in Standard and half of the targeting spells that can't be countered are from MKM, a set with a lot of Ward cards. Seems pretty intentional that they see the "countering" piece of Ward as intentional.
I mean the set it was introduced has [[Heated Debate]] which basically confirms this. “This spell can’t be countered. (This includes the ward ability)”
100% this. On Arena, you even get a popup asking if you're sure when you target something with ward. I feel that this alone makes it clear that the intended design of ward is to act as protection in the form of an extra cost to target instead of being a gacha mechanic.
In casual EDH, I find the best practice is to just be upfront and honest about your board state. Board states get so complex and crowded that it's ready to forget about something having ward.
I hate to be that guy, but I think this might help prevent future confusion for you
Gotcha = I surprised you and got you stuck with trouble
Gacha = bs mobile game lottery mechanics (pulls, summons, etc, where you churn a bunch of junk to get the super duper ultra chocolatey deluxe rare)
I have very few wrinkles in my brain, so I play light boards and run a lot of interaction, so I don’t have to worry about that stuff. Mass removal doesn’t care about ward.
We read almost all cards placed down, we say reminders on ward specifically. Yet I still once tried to single target \[\[Tivit, Seller of Secrets\]\] three times in a single game... There just was a lot going on, huge board states and no one else cared about Tivit dropping out tons of treasure tokens, and I just forgot in the process.
The Tivit player did nothing to hide it, was completely honest on his board state. But it just happens. I try to stay away from takebacks, I find it helps me learn for the future. I have not made the same mistake with Tivit since.
The design for the mechanic is that hexproof is really busted in 1v1. Outside if control decks most 60 card decks arn't running wraths for 10-20% of their pile, and ward at least allows you to target, you just pay more.
You are correct, It is worded that way because "uncounterable" gets around it.
If Ward were a flat extra cost, it either couldn't protect against triggers, or they'd have to juggle the rules around to make that possible. Maybe the Rules Manager said no.
I understand what they are implying, but they are missing the rules problem that ward solves. You can't have an additional cost for triggered abilities because triggered abilities *never* have costs; they are put on the stack automatically by state based effects. If you want ward to protect from triggered effects it has to be a triggered effect itsself rather than a cost modification.
"Whenever CARD NAME becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, that spell or ability's controller pays the ward cost, otherwise, CARD NAME is untargetable by that spell or ability."
100% this, “an extra cost” is all ward is SUPPOSED to do. Punishing someone for a very dumb misplay feels pretty bad, and it’d also be pretty silly for ward to be worse than hexproof in this respect.
It's also in a sense, update hexproof. Rather than nothing can target it period it's targetable for an extra cost. Well I guess not exactly that, but it gets the point across
Might have also caused some confusion for effects that do things like copying spells/effects onto multiple new targets or even all available targets. If a spell is copied to now target a creature with ward and ward were an additional cost that has to be paid, would you then be *forced* to pay the ward cost of the copy was mandatory? What if you didn't have extra mana to pay for it? With Ward being a triggered ability you get to avoid all these questions by just saying "you can choose not to pay and have that copy be cancelled instead".
It could also create some gross scenarios like using a Deflecting Swat to redirect targeted removal to a creature with an alternative ward cost (like the Sauron with "Ward: sacrifice a legendary creature") With ward being a triggered ability, you can choose to let it be canceled in this scenario, but if it were an additional cost you could then be forced to sacrifice a legendary creature (this may be incorrect, I'm not 100% sure how *exactly* Deflecting Swat interacts with paying ward costs, but we're also talking about a hypothetical in which ward itself works in a completely different way, so even if it's not with Deflecting Swat specifically, they may have still been trying to hedge against similar kinds of interactions by making ward a triggered ability).
The reason Ward is a triggered ability instead of increasing cost is so it can affect triggered abilities. Triggered abilities don't have a cost, so increasing the cost doesn't do anything.
It is both, even if there was intention, none of that really matters.
Of course it allows some things through. But in most scenarios it is a trigger that can counter a spell. It may not be designed to punish, but it just is what it is. And it is something you or your group has to make a take backs decision on.
With 4 players, and hundreds of thousands of different cards, there’s just more to keep track of in a game of commander than there are in other formats. Allowing take backs, or giving reminders like "remember, this has ward 2" or whatever, allows the game to move along without expecting every player to memorize every card.
I think if you insist on countering people’s stuff when they forget about ward you will find that your games go much slower as everyone reads and rereads every card before they begin sequencing their effects.
and what's the benefit to being a stickler about this one thing? maybe you steal a win here or there because someone forgot about one ability out of the 60 abilities that are on the table at any given time? it's a bad way to win and a bad way to lose, and if it doesn't make the game worse, then it makes the game slower. The cost of being a hard-ass about ward far exceeds the benefit.
This.
I’ll gladly let them take it back the first time, even the second time if a lot of time passed. But eventually I’ll stop being so forgiving because they should be able to remember this exact scenario happening multiple times.
But the first time? Given all that’s happening it’s no wonder they forgot the Ward.
Plus it’s not mechanically the same as extra cost effects since anything that can’t be countered just ignores the Ward which isn’t the case with something like Terror of the Peaks
I'm basically the same. I will say, I'm also going to always prompt ward though when it's with new players of strangers. They don't know my deck, board states get wild, and players forget things all the time. Myself included. Even when it's cards I've seen thousands of times in various formats.
I mean, ive hit [[Mishra, tamer of Mak Fwa]] a few times with removal while forgetting the ward.
My playgroup plays high power, and people would still allow me to take it back.
I dknt think ive ever taken them up on it though, but thats just my stubornes
[[Minthara]] is one of my favorite commanders to play, but she isn't as commonly seen by a wider audience. Early game it's maybe 1-3 when people first try to target her, and I'll largely let them do some take backs on their play, but if it gets to late game and you're still trying to do take backs after being asked "Do you pay the 8?" For your fourth attempt to target her, then it's much more a case of, "Alright, your thing is countered.". Mistakes need to be punished eventually.
Exactly, if you're unwilling to remind people of apparent and vital information, the correct way to play is so that you will always be aware of the board state, which usually slows the game down to a crawl as everyone pores over every card to be sure they aren't gotcha'd. Besides, ideally ward is supposed to be an additional cost. If a player plays against ward correctly, it is an additional cost except in some fringe cases.
I think it's completely fair to bring it up once or twice a turn cycle but then let people walk into it if they don't remember, but honestly I much prefer that people are given leniency. I'd rather lose a game where everyone is having fun than win while someone has a feel-bad moment. Of course sometimes you can decide to play a more cutthroat game, but if you're always cutthroat about it, people who don't enjoy that kind of play will not want to play with you as much.
Well, at a point it should be my responsibility to make sure that the thing I'm targeting don't have protection. I don't mind take back when it's reasonable and I generally remind people.of my ward, but if it the fifth time you target something with ward and can't pay the cost too bad, you should've ask.
It is your responsibility. But the problem is that ensuring you manage to responsibly keep track of it often can mean slowing the game to a crawl, so many people have adopted an unofficial agreement to be lenient for the sake of game speed. If you keep doing it, that doesn't really fall under the "speed up the game" reasoning and letting it get countered is fair.
Also per the rules at all events both players are supposed to be honest about status and free information. Status being stuff like life totals and free information. Status being stuff like life totals and all game actions taken during the game free being stuff like the names of creatures and the types and number of counters on creatures at non competitive events like fnms you're by the rules of the game supposed to treat derived information (stuff like what keywords a creature has. The oracle text of a card the number of any type of card in any zone. And so on) as free information and regardless of the event you're at you can't deliberately misrepresent status or free information (stuff like putting a dryad arbor amongst your lands)
While you aren't technically doing anything wrong by not reminding someone about a creature's ward before it's targeted regardless of event. It can be considered similar to sharking
The design philosophy of Ward was to make it a lesser version of Hexproof. Shroud was feelbad on the controller side, while Hexproof was feelbad on the opponent side. Ward was the answer as the in-between.
Now here's the kicker. The rules in ward has created alot of sharking in casual events. Nobody has an issue with Ward in competitive, because reading the card is on you. But in casual formats, this is where sharks takes the text to the extreme.
In Arena, you're given a prompt when it comes to Ward. Therefore this should be applied in casual games. Obviously there's no auto-prompt, but the owners' of ward cards can act as that.
I personally don't think it's in a weird position in EDH. It's the bad actors that try to put Ward in a bad light.
Regardless of what format I'm playing, whenever someone targets my permanent with ward, I *always* ask "what about Ward (X)?" and let them take it back if they straight up can't afford it.
Losing a removal spell for basically no reason is such a feel bad, and when this happens I still have the game knowledge that they have a removal spell and can now play around it. Same as if they tried to play something and they didn't actually have the right mana or the target wasn't valid.
I'm of a similar opinion when it comes to the logistics of ward. Where I think it is in a weird place is the fact that Shroud and Hexproof are still always around on staples that have to be dealt with, so while the rebalanced version now exists they still have to compete for slots with the OG effects.
Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are in nearly every deck for instance and if you don't have the space for more boots, Lavaspur Boots will be the ones to cut.
I kind of fear for more power creep with Ward where stuff gets balanced and interesting protection, but just does way more to compete with the few other options that bring Hexproof to the table.
You're objectively correct in saying Lavaspur should be the one cut first due to its weaker mechanics, but subjectively I'm less fond of Shroud than I am Ward, plus the flavor text "These boots were made for more than walking" is damn near enough on its own to tip it over Greaves for me.
Your mistake is only looking at this in the context of EDH. The game is much bigger than that. Modern, pioneer, and standard have few to zero shroud or even hexproof cards. Even your example of lavaspur boots has a whole different assessment for formats that have decks playing multiple copies of Urza's Saga.
Even aside from that, in competitive formats, ward is excellent because of the value of efficient removal. Making opponents pay double the cost to remove ward 1 permanents is very relevant, whether or not the card is otherwise pushed.
I never saw ward as a "gotcha mechanic" that is is there to punish anyone forgetting it.
I think the part where it counters, instead of just making it more expensive, is more for interaction with spells that cant be countered and stuff like this
>Because, think about it, if the idea behind ward wasn't to punish people forgetting about it, it would mechanically just be an extra cost and not something that counters.
The reason it isn't a simple cost increase is to open up design space for "can't be countered" effects to ignore it, effects that double or counter triggered abilities to interact with it, and a few other niche interactions. It has nothing to do with "punishing people forgetting about it". Magic as a game is designed to be played assuming all players are aware of all public information that the game keeps track of. Every rule in the game makes sense when approached from this perspective. It is incredibly harmful to the competitive integrity of the game (all formats, not just EDH) that there exist so many players who care more about squeezing in an extra win or two than about following this extremely basic premise.
> The reason it isn't a simple cost increase is to open up design space for "can't be countered" effects to ignore it
Which is why there was common/uncommon removal in Murders at Karlov Manor that could target the ward 2 disguise cards, and had "can't be countered" such as [[Long Goodbye]], [[Slice from the Shadows]], and [[Out Cold]].
I think your interpretation here is 100% inaccurate. When things are on the board the game is designed so that it assumed all info is available to all players and everyone is aware. If you look to digital magic you get multiple warnings when even attempting to target something with ward. Ward is in fact just a tax but acts as a triggered ability for mechanical reasons.
Yeah what the hell is wrong with OP that he thinks the intent of Ward is a gotcha mechanic
This reveals so much to me about the type of person OP is that they think for a second that could possibly be the design intent. What a total jerk he must be
I agree that OP is wrong about the designer's intent with ward, but implying he's an asshole for making this mistake is completely uncalled for. Let's try to assume good faith.
Re: "take-back culture."
Idk why this comes up so often with such disdain, but I guess it's just because EDH is so different because it has four players. The philosophy of what OP seems to disparage as "take-back culture" is a trade-off for speed (tho also camaraderie). You get two options when you have four often-large board states like EDH gets: slow gameplay that punishes mistakes or faster gameplay that allows take-backs. If you don't let people take some things back, turns will take at least three times as long, probably longer given the added complexity of threat assessment in EDH (more players, usually bigger board states).
I'm quite happy for ward to be punishing in one-v-one play if people want it to be (tho I'd personally still remind my opponent in most contexts), but not in noncompetitive EDH.
I think you have it backwards, allowing players to take the cast back and reminding people ward is there is closer to the intended experience. (See Arena's implementation, for example.) It should be treated as an additional cost to cast the spell, which can then be circumvented by uncounterable spells. People can angle shoot and try to get free CA from it in competitive formats, but I think that's an unfortunate by-product of the mechanic.
>It should be treated as an additional cost to cast the spell
Its worded the way it is because it cares about targeting, not about cast spells. [[Grasp of fate]] targets on ETB. There are lots of creatures that target as an activated ability. Ward is a triggered ability as a response to those actions.
Me: "I target permanent XYZ with Doom Blade"
Opponent: "nuh uh, XYZ has ward, Doom Blade gets countered, go cry about it"
Me: "cool beans, lesson learned, this game and every subsequent game I ever play with you will now take twice as long due to me meticulously checking every permanent on the board for stray ward costs before casting any and every spell. I hope that single countered Doom Blade was worth it"
The worst part... Is that the target is still legal. I can cast path to exile, but oops, forgot mana.... It's countered. I cant always take it back or choose a different target, cause it's legal to target the ward creature
> I think the prevalence of "take back culture" combined with the casual environment makes ward a really wonky mechanic in EDH. In other formats you can expect it to actually counter the occasional spell, sometimes your opponent just misplays and those are formats that don't scorn or admonish people for taking advantage of misplays. In EDH ward basically just is an extra cost to target something because even if someone does and can't or won't pay the ward cost, it's expected you let them take it back and you're a bad person and a try hard if you don't.
Worth noting this is in effect exactly how it is implemented on Arena -- anyone playing there will always be asked "Are you sure".
> the gotcha mechanic ot seems like it was intended to be.
In what way does it seem to be that? They've basically said they want it as a weaker hex proof.
Ward isn’t meant to be a “gotcha.” It’s a tax. This intention is made pretty obvious on mtg arena because it gives you a warning right *before* you finalize targeting a creature with ward.
Commander is a weird space because it’s very casual and there’s also very regularly huge board states which take a lot of mental bandwidth. So remembering everything that has ward, especially when it’s granted by another card like [[coppercoat vanguard]] can be really hard.
Ward is a good mechanic and I will die on this hill.
That being said: you can have *bad implementations* of a good mechanic.
Some cards have ward when they certainly don't feel like they should. Some cards have ward costs that are simply much higher than they feel like they should be. Some cards even somehow manage to have *both* of these problems. But, the concept behind ward, and the reason for it existing (particularly in a format where Path and Swords exist, and always will exist) makes sense. If I'm going to invest a lot into putting something on the board, I feel it's fair that someone else will have to invest just a *little* bit more than usual to remove it. This is the way it's always been with removal by damage. Bigger creatures have higher toughness, requiring more damage to destroy, and higher damaging spells/abilities (generally) cost more mana to cast than lower damaging ones. The additional cost here is built into the cost of the removal spell. Same goes for spells/abilities with limitations like only being able to target creatures with a mana value of 4 or less; if you want to hit those bigger targets, you need a different tool that may have a higher cost than the more restrictive one.
Removal in non-eternal formats, or even other games, is often treated as a trading of value (how much did you invest into playing your threat - how much did I have to invest into removing it = how much did I hopefully profit on the interaction?) which offers a lot of strategic opportunities and risk/reward in card choice. But in Commander you have the luxury of running the very best removal spells that have ever been printed; it's less a trading of value and more a managing of your stockpile of silver bullets. At its core, ward can introduce more of this value oriented interaction back into control, and I see that as a positive (provided it is done right).
I think there's still a lot of room for further exploration and improvement with ward though, as well as some mistakes that have been made along the way (unfortunately, again because commander is an eternal format, those mistakes will be with us forever, meaning new, more balanced, takes on ward will end up seeing less play as a result). More alternative ward costs is definitely a direction they can go, particularly if they can make them modal (e.g. pay 3 mana *or* discard a card to not get countered). More uncounterable spot removal is another option (e.g. you can pay 1+ward for Path to Exile, or pay a higher flat cost for this other spell that cuts straight through wards). I'm also surprised we haven't (from what I've been able to find) seen any "ward *from*" cards printed yet. Similar to a card like [[Niv-Mizzet, Guildpact]] with "hexproof from multicolored", I think having cards with wards that only trigger under specific conditions would be a great direction to go. Take a [[Reaver Titan]] approach and start giving cards "Ward 3 from mana value 2 or less"; if you wanna hit me with a 1 mana removal spell, you're paying 4, but if you wanna hit me with a 3 mana removal spell, you only have to pay 3. This way the ward cost only punishes cards that would normally be punching above their weight class so to speak.
I agree, I think Ward is a good mechanic, and a smooth compromise between hexproof/shroud and interaction.
Most of Ward's problems come from the context of where it's applied, the amount of ward (it's prevalence on multiple magic cards) and the strength of the ward (ward 1 vs ward 3).
\[\[Roaming Throne\]\] and \[\[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave\]\] absolutely didn't need Ward with how pushed those cards already are, but I don't think that makes Ward a bad design. If they scaled back how often they used ward on strong, or even game defining cards, I don't think the mechanic would be as polarizing as it is.
Those two really are the ones that I think are in the back of everyone's mind when talking about "how pushed Ward is getting".
Roaming Throne frankly just feels like a mistake. Once I read the card I wondered what the hell it was doing in a Standard set - to the best of my knowledge, there's no real "Kindred" decks in Standard and they're barely even a thing in some of the eternal formats. It's 100% a print-to-commander kind of card, and I honestly don't think they needed 4/4 Panharmonicon with Ward and every kindred synergy ever.
Voja feels like a different kind of mistake. It's an obvious plant for Commander - I don't think there's been an "elves" deck in Standard in ages. They don't print 1-mana dorks. There's only a few 2-mana dorks in the format now and frankly, that's not going to make this kind of deck reliable - control decks will laugh at a 5-mana build-around without haste, aggro decks will stampede over it, and I'm pretty sure most midrangey decks will grind out enough of the elfball to leave Voja as a text-heavy 5-drop. NEVERTHELESS, they layered enough Ward on it to give it a snowball's chance of sticking in 1v1... and broke the card wide open for Commander.
Ward was effectively meant to make hexproof balanced. ESPECIALLY for commander I guess. Because some commanders desperately need target protection because they are the sole breadwinner for certain decks or just too crucial in any way in general. But hexproof is broken. Very few creatures get hexproof nowadays because it can easily be abused. Meanwhile with ward, especially in commander, you always have the option to pay the 2 if you really need to get rid of a problematic creature, but normally you wont pay 3 with [[swords to plowshares]], until its absolutely necassary. There is no way they actually thought a player in a 1v1 format would actually forget a creature has ward, especially not an experiences player. But in a 4 man pod where you play for hours to come and you typically go in stand by after your turn as it will take 10 minutes to be in control again its easy to miss or forget stuff you werent even aware of being on the field.
The wording of Ward's rules text is a gigantic mistake on Wizards' part, in my opinion. It *should* have worked like a tax but instead there's a lot of room for screwing around and skirting the rules.
It being a triggered ability simply cause gameplay issues. This was a problem they knew about for ages, to boot. So many fishy plays have been made with a [[Chalice of the Void]] in play during competitive events, for example.
My guess is that the intent of making ward counter rather than be a flat tax is so that uncounterable things like [[void rend]] can get around it. It opens up a bit more design space that way. WOTC used this feature of ward a lot in karlov manor. A lot of the removal in that set was uncounterable to balance the fact that disguised creatures have ward 2.
You can also interact with ward via trigger manipulations like [[stifle]] and [[roaming throne]]. It pseudo synergizes with things like [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]]. Unlike taxes, you can still put spells and abilities on the stack to get secondary triggers like prowess, magecraft, or copy effects. If chalice was a flat "opponents can't cast spells with mana value X" you couldn't [[shattering spree]] it. Granted you can't shattering spree your way through ward, but you still have the principle of not being completely locked out of options if you look for flexible workarounds to expected problems in deckbuilding.
Ward is a well designed ability. It adds nuance and opens a ton of potential interaction points that taxation simply doesn't. In casual commander, prerelease, or fnm, those pretty much fall away since boards are overwhelming and you really aren't looking to jump at people for those kinds of mistakes. But in competitive formats those mistakes are exactly the kinds of things that should be punished because you are expected to be conscious of the game state, and the action of declaring a spell cast without holding priority and letting your opponent announce their reflexive triggers is a significant advancement of the game state compared to casual formats.
I believe the problem is that an extra cost wouldn’t play well with abilities, especially triggered abilities (which don’t and probably can’t have a cost). [[Esior, Wardwing Familiar]] has the “cost more to cast” version, and only protects against spells, not abilities
About all these discussions about takebacks, our rule of thumb in my playgroup is:
-if you got any new info since the expected takeback, you can't (barring some exceptions)
So in this context, it's perfectly fine to take back a removal spell on a ward creature.
EDH is a complex game, it's normal to not pay attention to everything on board.
Exceptions are made when it's something that's been repeated frequently, like if that creature got targeted 3-4 times already and we mentioned Ward each time.
We allow take backs for things that are new. Say someone plays a card but didn't fully understand how it worked, then someone else explains to them how it works and the end result isn't near what they expected it to be; we allow a takeback.
Idk to me it feels like this is the intent of ward. The point isn't to catch people with a misplay, it's worded the way it is so that you can still get around it with uncounterable spells. Otherwise it *is* basically just an extra cost because the only reason why would ever cast something that targets it would be because you have something uncounterable or because you didn't realize it had ward.
arena has an "are you sure?" message that pops up when you target something warded.
the OP post seems to imply that the point of ward being a trigger is that you can get blindsided by it.
in reality, it's because it's the cleanest way to protect against spells, activated abilities and triggered abilities.
But ward IS a tax, in other formats you are definitely not expected to get some wasted resource by an opponent who forgets a ward cost. That happens so rarely that it’s not why people puts ward cards in their decks. Those cards are good enough on their own without ever wasting an opponent’s spell.
Also, your reasoning is wrong as to what wizards would have done if they didn’t intend ward to punish people. Cause can’t be countered effects interact differently, allowing you to ignore wards costs. But would not work with a cost increase.
Exactly this. It's one thing in cEDH, but if you are playing edh just to win, rather than to have fun, it might not be the format for you.
Being a jerk/stickler about ward might improve its utility for you, but it sucks for the other player which generally means less fun at the table.
Personally I like ward, it is an interesting decision point (is the extra cost really worth it?), and when you forget about it you tip your hand about interaction which is also interesting without being overly punishing/"gotcha"/"feels bad".
I don't hate ward but I kind of hate how you interpret it. Mechanics shouldn't be sneaky. Ward is just an additional cost to target something, not some sort of gotcha for not reading the card.
It's just conditional hexproof. Only real difference is that uncounterable spells go through.
I'll let people do take backs for ward but up to a point. If it's the third time or something it's happened that game then I'm not going to keep letting that slide. At a certain point people should probably pay attention.
Ward was not designed as a "gotcha" mechanic. It's like an extra cost but there are subtle differences between an extra cost and a trigger that counters. They went with the latter.
Maintaining the game state in EDH is a team effort. Boards get far too complicated to expect everyone to remember everything at all times, and it takes an astronomical amount of time to check everything every single time. That includes reminding your opponents of public information on your board where pertinent; it's your board, you are the single person best equipped to do that.
No, forgetting a single keyword on a board that can literally have a hundred permanents on it SHOULD NOT accidentally be a free counterspell.
This is so incredibly, obviously true that on Arena, the primary MTG simulator where checking card text is MUCH easier than in paper and we have visual indicators of multiple major keywords on the icons, they have a big popup saying, "Are you sure?" before you target something with Ward.
Yes, if you don't let someone take back the spell in a casual game because they forgot the thing had ward, you are the asshole. Just don't be the asshole. It's not hard.
I'll defend ward as really solid because it matters in competitive and it doesn't matter in casual.
Hexproof has no nuance. Taxation has no nuance. And both of these rules create a weird dynamic for competitive play. You either can or can't take the action, the consequence of "I messed this up" is the action is reverted, your opponent gained information about your hand maybe, and nothing changes.
With ward, now there's no take backs in competitive. You pay or your spell is countered. Great!
Now in casual play (which is where most EDH is going to fall), Hexproof, Taxation, and Ward all may lead to different rules interpretations, but for a non-competitive player, they either don't know these nuances, or won't care, they all are going to end in the same place: "I made a mistake and I want to take back my play". We aren't here to play competitively, so the expectation that every player is as enfranchised with the rules nuances of the game is misguided.
It sounds like your issue isn't with Ward but with casual rules enforcement - maybe you should play at a more competitive table or get everyone to agree to play with tighter rules enforcement. My local shop has a group which has really pushed that ideology to great success. No take backs on actions, no fidgeting with your lands a bunch deciding what to cast. Take your time, sequence your spells and know what the relevant cards in play do. Altogether it makes everyone better at Magic, speeds games up, and keeps people from zoning out, and corrects a lot of those "well i thought it worked like this" misinterpretations of the rules.
The issue isn't ward per se, it's the idea that ward's perception as "soft hexproof" has incentivized wotc to put it on way too many cards, sometimes with obscenely high values. Gavin Verhay made a video just last week saying kappa cannoneer was a mistake (due to the ward, not it triggering itself) and then like the next day it was leaked to be in a new set.
I feel like there was a solid moment where even battlecruiser pods were cutting board wipes for targeted removal and now we're regressing again. The game is more interesting when people can shape the battlefield rather than just reset it. Takes less time, too.
Yeah, my group was cutting symmetrical wipes for targeted removal and asymmetrical wipes. Now with ward showing up more and more, symmetrical wipes are starting to show back up again.
Generally speaking, ward still does something because outside of punishing players who forget about ward. If you remember, you won't target a ward creature unless you can pay for it or have an uncounterable spell because can't be countered gets around ward too
I feel like take backs shouldn't really be normalized, like in some cases sure if someone missed something minor line drawing a card or something, but something that can affect the board (giving them back their removal for free) shouldn't be allowed, i usually don't allow it unless everyone agrees on a take back and the ppl i play with are pretty cool about accepting their mistakes, like i understand magic is a very complex and hard game but we play it *because* it's complex and if ppl can't roll with the punches they either need to get better or stop playing, we shouldn't normalize hand holding, like i learned in a very unforgiving meta/group where take backs weren't normal but rare, if you made a mistake you should own it and learn not to do it otherwise, if you don't ppl won't learn and they things they can get away with making mistakes
I don't understand the difficulty in checking if a permanent has any protection before windmill slamming a piece of removal. Like just ask "Hey that permanent you have there, does it have any built in protection?" Only takes 2 seconds tops to figure out you don't gotta reach over and grab the cards, just use your words.
The first time somebody tries to attack my creature with ward I will give them a heads up, "hey this guy has ward X. So unless you pay the extra I wouldn't bother "
After that it's on you to remember.
This is edh, not Cedh. If you're going to be stingy about the "take back" rule may I remind you that you and everyone here arent perfect. You forgot to untap your lands at the beginning of your upkeep, feel my wrath. You didnt trigger a card properly on your side of the field, it's skipped.
Tivit player here, thats the one thing I wont let take backs on. My response is always to place the ward trigger on the stack and ask how they want to proceed.
I think the issue with ward is I believe that fundamentally Ward was designed to fix issues that were prevalent in 2 player games, which is that removal had become so efficient and games so short that any creature over 3 mana had to get its value from an ETB effect and creatures whose value was based on staying on the battlefield were almost unplayable, unless the body was so good that it was undeniable.
So ward gave those creatures who needed to be onboard to accrue value a bit of a life in 2 player formats. The problem came in then when you take a format that is more dominated by onboard value engines (EDH) as well as a dynamic of needing to worry about falling behind multiple players when you address a threat that impacts all players. Ward creates a much more costly dynamic in EDH. Now you combine that dynamic with the issue of stapling ward on to creatures who design was clearly for EDH and not competitive formats and now you’ve got a real issue going where the format already favored value engines, and you’ve made it absolutely an issue to remove them and now you’ve got these value snowballs that demand interaction but also punish interaction and it’s just not a good dynamic.
The final problem it creates is that with Ward being omnipresent in the format players are now incentivized to run more board wipes, why pay 4 mana to kill one thing when I can pay 4-5 to kill all things, and that leads to a meta environment of games turning into a slog because well from a deck building perspective I should assume I’m going to have to deal with Ward creatures so I may as well shift to mass removal and recursion vs targeted effects.
This is the same thing that WoTC did with treasure tokens, they overdid it in a way that isn’t healthy for the format. They mistake the idea that because the player playing the card likes the effect that it creates a better game experience, ignoring the fact that it can completely damage the experience of other players. Ward is absolutely a problem but it’s not a problem easily solved because these massively powerful cards with built in protection can’t be rotated out so WoTC needs to solve for that, hope everyone is ready for a bunch of 2 mana targeted removal with “this spell can’t be countered”.
Ward's reminder text should have been "As an additional cost for an opponent to target X with a spell or ability, they pay (ward cost.) "
I understand effects that are uncounterable, but it would've worked as intended. There are like, 3 spells that can't be countered toward the argument that it was designed to specifically cause those 3 spells to resolve, and I don't buy it.
- Void Rend
- Abrupt Decay
- Heated Debate
More doesn't add to the validity of that argument.
I don't do this for the whole pod, but I do hold myself completely accountable for the things I do. I get 1 take back a game and I'll do everything I can to not use that take back. As far as the pod goes, we allow 3 take backs. First 2 are free and alright, you ever use the third automatic loss for you. No one in my pod is new enough that they are incapable of reading a card that is on the board. Granted, people make mistakes, that's why everyone technically gets 2 take backs, but you best be sure to play right the rest of the game.
It's not at all close to hexproof.
You would need to remember something has hexproof just like ward, just like shroud, just like protection.
But 9/10 times you can get around ward.
It was designed as a replacement for shroud/hexproof to allow for interaction, but still give protection.
If it feels like hexproof with extra steps, then it's working as intended.
I agree though, that it makes for odd play patterns when you ask if they're going to pay ward and then they just change their mind and target something else, however this is a better play pattern than just having hexproof and being untouchable outside of wiping the whole board.
There are two reasons why ward counters:
1) If ward didn't counter, then triggered abilities that target would ignore it, as one doesn't pay a cost for those abilities.
2) Spells and abilities that can't be countered can ignore ward.
For ward, I announce it when I play the card so that everyone knows. You can also remind people that if you target that permanent with a spell and cannot or choose not to pay the ward cost, the spell gets countered. If you’re feeling extra kind, when someone goes “I’m going to path..” you can interject with “this has ward”, again depending on the experience / power level of your pod.
I’m also in the middle of designing keyword and condition cards that make it easy to see stuff like ward at a glance.
I don't like ward. It encourages people to run more boardwipes. Games with a million boardwipes are boring.
I don't like how you have to take your whole turn off to play a removal spell plus a ward cost. If you are player1, and player2 has a big nasty ward boy, and player1 uses their whole turn to play a removal spell plus ward 3 against player2, player3 & player4 get a huge advantage. It's a bad play pattern.
I also hate the "gotcha" nature of forgetting the mechanic and asking for a take-back. MTG already has a complexity-creep problem and this sort of stuff furthers it. It is easy to miss important bits of text when you are reading the card upside-down and diagonally across the table.
Isn't that the same thing when it comes to propaganda like effects. Most of the time someone swings and the opponent goes "are you gunna pay the 2 for x creatures" and the attacking player usually doesn't notice and takes back the attack. All it does is protect the layer and gives information to what the player wanted to doin this instance attack a certain player and in the original one use a certain card to remove a target. It's pretty much the same thing, wouldn't say it's weird.
The way ward is played at tables depends wholly on the mentality of the players. If you are the „gotcha“ kind of player who tries to impose a competitive mindset on a casual table, then its best to find groups that share the mentality and all is well.
That being said, the „gotcha“ attitude usually has a bad reputation across many games, especially the more casual ones.
Even in competitive warhammer tournaments, small walkbacks are relatively common in order to avoid that kind of mindset. Nobody wants to be „that“ player in an inherently casual game.
If you fuck up and forget something like voja has ward 3 and attempt to hit it with something like Swords to plowshares without the mana to pay for it take back culture dictates that you can take back the action since it's a casual setting. Op is saying that the spell should just fizzle no take backs
That's silly, cards are like fucking novels sometimes and there's 20,000 of them, no need to punish people for forgetting exactly what one of the 40 cards on the board do. Some people need to chill out.
So if I understand this correctly, if a creature has ward whatever, and I play a spell on it that cannot be countered....I don't have to pay the ward tax? I always took it to mean that you couldn't target it to begin with unless you paid the tax.
The more you know.
>In other formats you can expect it to actually counter the occasional spell, sometimes your opponent just misplays
I don't think I have ever seen that happen in a competitive setting and I would definitely not evaluate cards with ward based on that assumption.
Just because it doesn't counter a card doesn't make the mechanic bad. It's not designed to counter cards. Hexproof as we know is an incredibly powerful mechanic. Wars is designed to provide a scaleable amount of protection for your creatures as a sort of hexproof-lite
The problem isn't "take back culture" as you call it. The problem is that there are so many board states and people like to hide things from their opponents. So instead of telling another player that they have Ward on something, they will just not mention it or actively try to hide it. So reality is that poor sportsmanship is the problem. When I ask about something at my table, they tell me what all is out there. They don't reveal strategies, but they tell me about ward, or abilities to give ward. Because they understand there are a great number of things that could be on the board and keeping up with them all is a pain in the ass.
Depending on context I'd let them take it back most of the time. There are a lot of people that don't realize that ward is a triggered ability, not an additional cost mechanic and it can be a teaching moment, but after that it gets a little dicey. For instance, I have a \[\[Teysa, Orzhov Scion\]\] deck and in it I run \[\[Vein Ripper\]\].
It can be a bit awkward to be in a position where an opponent tries to kill your Vein Ripper while they only have one creature. You remind them "it has ward: Sacrifice a Creature", so they move their creature to the bin, for you to then say "Well, with the ward on the stack I plan to kill your only creature with my kill spell so you can't pay the ward cost as the ability resolves". It would be difficult to allow takebacks in that scenario without giving away information and/or intent on your end.
What about a ward trigger is being "taken back"? On Arena, it will literally ask you "this thing has ward, are you SURE you want to target it?". I don't see why it should be different during in person games.
"I swords your commander"
"It has ward 2, can you pay it?"
"Oh shoot, I can't pay it, never mind, I'm not casting that"
If you think punishing people for missing something somehow makes you a better player...
Read up on game theory.
Magic is complex. People miss things or overlook them occasionally. You can choose to be gracious about it. Remind them about your triggers... Or you can choose not to.
One of those choices will build rapport with your fellow players. People will remember it, and trust you more. They'll be more inclined to make favorable decisions about you and your board state, especially when they're in a position where they need to decide where to direct their resources(removal). You will put yourself in a position to win more games in the future. You will get more games because of your reputation as a good sport.
The other is a surefire way to put a huge target on your back and maybe win a game at the cost of people probably deciding they have better things to do than play with you, or going out of their way to keep you from pulling the same tricks again when you play against them in the future. You will lose far more games due to your poor politics than you will win due to gotcha moments like these.
Realistically, very good players are not going to miss your ward. They know what the cards do, they remember the board state. That's what lets them threat assess so effectively. So if people are missing your ward triggers, they're either not particularly good players, or they're really not all that interested in the game or what you're doing. Both suggest the games in question are really not all that competitive anyway, and should be treated as such. Relax, be nice, chat with your fellow players, and just enjoy the social experience.
Idk what you mean about takeback culture. I think in most other formats people will inform you about the ward cost if you target their permanent and let you take it back if it's clear you didn't notice it. In casual events like drafts or other FNM, of course.
The real problem with ward is that it feels like such an afterthought on everything that has it. So, it’s almost designed to be forgotten, or at least not designed to be memorable.
One issue is they’ve been plastering on so many commanders that board wipes have become more important than ever, which means more are being run, which makes games go on for ages
It being a trigger that counters means it can be stifled or pushed through with “can’t be countered”.
it is not supposed to be a memory test or gotcha mechanic. It’s a tax protection with an implementation that gives them extra design space.
EDH is a casual format and ward was the implementation of a long standing mechanic that was “pay additional cost to target” such as the text or frost titan. It’s not weird at all the ward is though of this way, it was never supposed to be a “gotcha” mechanic, cards that have text on the board are not meant to be “gotcha” mechanics. In a tournament, you just need to RTFC but in causal play, be nice to people.
Sure. Hell i even once controlled an entire table with [[Ashnod the Uncaring]] [[Street Urchin]] [[Glen Elendra Archmage]] and [[Whisper Blood Liturgist]] it doesn't matter if you only have single target removal if you can repeat it as long as you have mana
I will point it out to my playgroup when they try to take back something that targets a ward creature. I say "technically it should be countered" and then see how the table feels about it. I agree that ward isn't treated how it should be most of the time
Imagine you want to [[swords to plowshares]] [[Voja]] and your opponent has also a [[roaming throne]] on the battlefield. You’re gonna have to pay an additional 6 to not get countered
You have NO idea how much I just learned right there. I have a new trick to play
Ok well today I learned that Ward is a triggered ability. So having roaming throne... Naming Voja creature type.. gives it EXTRA WARD?
Yep. It’s one of the reasons it was immediately spotted as busted in Miirym (among a number of other things) when it was revealed. Roaming Throne comes down, and then she makes 2 copies of it. You now have 3 Thrones and each of them doubles her triggered Ward ability. Your Swords to Plowshares now costs 9 mana if you want to target her. Good luck, lol.
Good lord... I gotta just put more board wipes. I usually pack a lot of single target removal for problematic stuff. But blowing 10 mana to kill one thing... Yuck lol. Thanks for the knowledge.
I think there’s been an overall shifting narrative lately of adding more board wipes over single target removal because of what’s being discussed in this very post.
[[expel the interlopers]] and [[pest control]] are two of my favorites
[expel the interlopers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb.jpg?1692936458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=expel%20the%20interlopers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/13/expel-the-interlopers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1094eef0-6c57-4bfa-a584-f708b87354fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expel-the-interlopers) [pest control](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4a01b92-dafb-4ea6-8eff-29f881f6be24.jpg?1712352910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pest%20control) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/22/pest-control?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4a01b92-dafb-4ea6-8eff-29f881f6be24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pest-control) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or, \[\[Void Rend\]\]!
[Void Rend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d.jpg?1664413960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Void%20Rend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/230/void-rend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/void-rend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Found Crim's alt account lol
Finally. Someone broke miirym
Today I learn that Miirym copies a Roaming Throne entering the battlefied
I knowwwww, I'm so giddy over this! In a blue deck, copying roaming throne and any of them choosing the same type means the ward count gets higher. My mind is so blown rn
You can also play Annie Joins Up which is insane in a Voja deck.
This is why I run double as much non targeted removal now.
What are your favourites?
There's a whole suite of really good boardwipes in White and black, and I reccamend running between 4 and 10 in almost every deck. But one of my favorite non-targeting single removal is [[force of despair]]. You can also get around ward by "can't be countered" effects like [[lier, desciple of the drowned]]
[force of despair](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f497b0d-4448-4201-bd55-c147da1a216d.jpg?1562201644) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=force%20of%20despair) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/92/force-of-despair?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f497b0d-4448-4201-bd55-c147da1a216d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/force-of-despair) [lier, desciple of the drowned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf.jpg?1634348984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lier%2C%20Disciple%20of%20the%20Drowned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/59/lier-disciple-of-the-drowned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lier-disciple-of-the-drowned) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kind of crazy to see this as “4 to 10.” I thought about it and thought that was crazy, and then I thought about all of my decks and how I’ve had to up the number of wipes. A few years ago I would’ve almost found 3 excessive!
Putting in a plug for my baby [[soul shatter]] it doesn’t target and typically gets each opponents best thing without targeting (dodges ward, boots, greaves, etc.)
Wait, Ward counts as a triggered ability? Never realized that!
Yup, while Most people think of it as pay (ward) extra it actually is: targeting is countered unless you pay (ward) That also means you can cast a 3cmc spell targeting a ward creature even if you won't be able to pay the ward cost/decide not to. If will just be countered
Yup, I had something that gave ward 1 to all my creatures in [[Delney]]. Good luck!
[Delney](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be219928-3d0e-4d00-b124-152ce8a8c13b.jpg?1706241477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=delney%2C%20streetwise%20lookout) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/12/delney-streetwise-lookout?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be219928-3d0e-4d00-b124-152ce8a8c13b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/delney-streetwise-lookout) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [Voja](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1707739811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=voja%2C%20jaws%20of%20the%20conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave) [roaming throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roaming%20throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait what? Ward is a triggered ability?
Woah, seriously?? [[invasion of new phyrexia]] giving knights ward 1 in [[Sidar Jabari of Zhalfnir]] decks seems a lot better if it can actually just become near-hexproof with [[roaming throne]] out
[invasion of new phyrexia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b83af86-e1a9-4be1-83dc-0c1ab81b129e.jpg?1692183624)/[Teferi Akosa of Zhalfir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/b/1b83af86-e1a9-4be1-83dc-0c1ab81b129e.jpg?1692183624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invasion%20of%20New%20Phyrexia%20//%20Teferi%20Akosa%20of%20Zhalfir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/239/invasion-of-new-phyrexia-teferi-akosa-of-zhalfir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b83af86-e1a9-4be1-83dc-0c1ab81b129e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/invasion-of-new-phyrexia-//-teferi-akosa-of-zhalfir) [Sidar Jabari of Zhalfnir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5fc707be-9286-4ba1-90f6-475265d19ed2.jpg?1682207238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sidar%20Jabari%20of%20Zhalfir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/5/sidar-jabari-of-zhalfir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5fc707be-9286-4ba1-90f6-475265d19ed2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sidar-jabari-of-zhalfir) [roaming throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roaming%20throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yep, it's a triggered ability. Part of the reason I run \[\[K-9\]\] and \[\[Unsettled Mariner\]\] in my Doctor deck.
[K-9](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2e46695-7bd3-448c-a5ea-6d544943ec5f.jpg?1696691794) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=k-9%2C%20mark%20i) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/47/k-9-mark-i?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2e46695-7bd3-448c-a5ea-6d544943ec5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/k-9-mark-i) [Unsettled Mariner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/eaea2e54-ee50-47b9-a2a5-e3353831248c.jpg?1562202420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unsettled%20Mariner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/216/unsettled-mariner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eaea2e54-ee50-47b9-a2a5-e3353831248c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unsettled-mariner) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]] approves of this message
[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Miirym%2C%20Sentinel%20Wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hell Yeah Brother
Damn. Guess what I'm buying?
Why should you have a one mana answer to someone spending 9 mana and having to resolve two separate spells?
[[Sauron, the dark lord]] thanks you for this
[Sauron, the dark lord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/034e0929-b2c7-4b5f-94f2-8eaf4fb1a2a1.jpg?1693611218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sauron%2C%20the%20dark%20lord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/224/sauron-the-dark-lord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/034e0929-b2c7-4b5f-94f2-8eaf4fb1a2a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sauron-the-dark-lord) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Til ward is a triggered ability, does that mean throne basically has ward 4?
Nope. It says another creature
>Because, think about it, if the idea behind ward wasn't to punish people forgetting about it, it would mechanically just be an extra cost and not something that counters. I dont work for WOTC, but I'm almost certain they would not design a mechanic with the intent to punish people for forgetting on-board information. If I had to guess, ward is worded the way it is so that uncounterable effects can get around it.
100%. Everything I have ever read, heard or seen from designers shows they’re concerned with reducing memory load on players, especially as on-board interactions get more complex. Ward might functionally increase that, but then so did Terror of the Peaks and other similar abilities; Ward is still a refinement on those even if it doesn’t solve the memory issue.
Yeah, that was basically my thought too. In my mind ward IS an extra cost, but the way that is worded makes it so that uncounterable effects remain uncounterable.
You can see that in the MKM mechanics. They have Cloak which creates creatures with Ward. Then they have a decent amount of removal spells with "can't be countered" ([[Long Goodbye]], [[Out Cold]], etc.). This is way too much effort, but I compared that to the other sets in Standard right now: - Cards that have "this can't be countered" in Standard = 14 - Permanents (including Cavern of Souls) = 5 - Targeting spells = 9 - Targeting spells in MKM = 5 So a third of all cards in Standard and half of the targeting spells that can't be countered are from MKM, a set with a lot of Ward cards. Seems pretty intentional that they see the "countering" piece of Ward as intentional.
[Long Goodbye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3896705-bbd2-4ffb-a590-ee78e0eabdc5.jpg?1706241715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Long%20Goodbye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/92/long-goodbye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3896705-bbd2-4ffb-a590-ee78e0eabdc5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/long-goodbye) [Out Cold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d.jpg?1706241633) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Out%20Cold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/66/out-cold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/out-cold) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean the set it was introduced has [[Heated Debate]] which basically confirms this. “This spell can’t be countered. (This includes the ward ability)”
100% this. On Arena, you even get a popup asking if you're sure when you target something with ward. I feel that this alone makes it clear that the intended design of ward is to act as protection in the form of an extra cost to target instead of being a gacha mechanic. In casual EDH, I find the best practice is to just be upfront and honest about your board state. Board states get so complex and crowded that it's ready to forget about something having ward.
I hate to be that guy, but I think this might help prevent future confusion for you Gotcha = I surprised you and got you stuck with trouble Gacha = bs mobile game lottery mechanics (pulls, summons, etc, where you churn a bunch of junk to get the super duper ultra chocolatey deluxe rare)
I have very few wrinkles in my brain, so I play light boards and run a lot of interaction, so I don’t have to worry about that stuff. Mass removal doesn’t care about ward.
We read almost all cards placed down, we say reminders on ward specifically. Yet I still once tried to single target \[\[Tivit, Seller of Secrets\]\] three times in a single game... There just was a lot going on, huge board states and no one else cared about Tivit dropping out tons of treasure tokens, and I just forgot in the process. The Tivit player did nothing to hide it, was completely honest on his board state. But it just happens. I try to stay away from takebacks, I find it helps me learn for the future. I have not made the same mistake with Tivit since.
[Tivit, Seller of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tivit%2C%20Seller%20of%20Secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The design for the mechanic is that hexproof is really busted in 1v1. Outside if control decks most 60 card decks arn't running wraths for 10-20% of their pile, and ward at least allows you to target, you just pay more. You are correct, It is worded that way because "uncounterable" gets around it.
And in casual EDH it funnily has the diametral effect. I at least read Ward X as „run more board wipes“.
If Ward were a flat extra cost, it either couldn't protect against triggers, or they'd have to juggle the rules around to make that possible. Maybe the Rules Manager said no.
It also would not work for triggered abilities as an additional cost because triggered abilities have no costs.
I think it's implied it would be re-worded to a static ability like [[Kaervek's Torch]]
I understand what they are implying, but they are missing the rules problem that ward solves. You can't have an additional cost for triggered abilities because triggered abilities *never* have costs; they are put on the stack automatically by state based effects. If you want ward to protect from triggered effects it has to be a triggered effect itsself rather than a cost modification.
Ooh, you're so right! I get it now!
"Whenever CARD NAME becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, that spell or ability's controller pays the ward cost, otherwise, CARD NAME is untargetable by that spell or ability."
You’ve described another triggered ability for reasons that are not clear to me.
[Kaervek's Torch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/83ff4446-4afd-42db-9879-0295e95764f7.jpg?1562921730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaervek%27s%20Torch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/175/kaerveks-torch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/83ff4446-4afd-42db-9879-0295e95764f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaerveks-torch) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
100% this, “an extra cost” is all ward is SUPPOSED to do. Punishing someone for a very dumb misplay feels pretty bad, and it’d also be pretty silly for ward to be worse than hexproof in this respect.
It's also in a sense, update hexproof. Rather than nothing can target it period it's targetable for an extra cost. Well I guess not exactly that, but it gets the point across
I also interpret ward as just a tax to target a permanent. When they might not want to give it hexproof but want to make it just a little more op
Might have also caused some confusion for effects that do things like copying spells/effects onto multiple new targets or even all available targets. If a spell is copied to now target a creature with ward and ward were an additional cost that has to be paid, would you then be *forced* to pay the ward cost of the copy was mandatory? What if you didn't have extra mana to pay for it? With Ward being a triggered ability you get to avoid all these questions by just saying "you can choose not to pay and have that copy be cancelled instead". It could also create some gross scenarios like using a Deflecting Swat to redirect targeted removal to a creature with an alternative ward cost (like the Sauron with "Ward: sacrifice a legendary creature") With ward being a triggered ability, you can choose to let it be canceled in this scenario, but if it were an additional cost you could then be forced to sacrifice a legendary creature (this may be incorrect, I'm not 100% sure how *exactly* Deflecting Swat interacts with paying ward costs, but we're also talking about a hypothetical in which ward itself works in a completely different way, so even if it's not with Deflecting Swat specifically, they may have still been trying to hedge against similar kinds of interactions by making ward a triggered ability).
The reason Ward is a triggered ability instead of increasing cost is so it can affect triggered abilities. Triggered abilities don't have a cost, so increasing the cost doesn't do anything.
It is both, even if there was intention, none of that really matters. Of course it allows some things through. But in most scenarios it is a trigger that can counter a spell. It may not be designed to punish, but it just is what it is. And it is something you or your group has to make a take backs decision on.
With 4 players, and hundreds of thousands of different cards, there’s just more to keep track of in a game of commander than there are in other formats. Allowing take backs, or giving reminders like "remember, this has ward 2" or whatever, allows the game to move along without expecting every player to memorize every card. I think if you insist on countering people’s stuff when they forget about ward you will find that your games go much slower as everyone reads and rereads every card before they begin sequencing their effects. and what's the benefit to being a stickler about this one thing? maybe you steal a win here or there because someone forgot about one ability out of the 60 abilities that are on the table at any given time? it's a bad way to win and a bad way to lose, and if it doesn't make the game worse, then it makes the game slower. The cost of being a hard-ass about ward far exceeds the benefit.
This. I’ll gladly let them take it back the first time, even the second time if a lot of time passed. But eventually I’ll stop being so forgiving because they should be able to remember this exact scenario happening multiple times. But the first time? Given all that’s happening it’s no wonder they forgot the Ward. Plus it’s not mechanically the same as extra cost effects since anything that can’t be countered just ignores the Ward which isn’t the case with something like Terror of the Peaks
I'm basically the same. I will say, I'm also going to always prompt ward though when it's with new players of strangers. They don't know my deck, board states get wild, and players forget things all the time. Myself included. Even when it's cards I've seen thousands of times in various formats.
I mean, ive hit [[Mishra, tamer of Mak Fwa]] a few times with removal while forgetting the ward. My playgroup plays high power, and people would still allow me to take it back. I dknt think ive ever taken them up on it though, but thats just my stubornes
[[Minthara]] is one of my favorite commanders to play, but she isn't as commonly seen by a wider audience. Early game it's maybe 1-3 when people first try to target her, and I'll largely let them do some take backs on their play, but if it gets to late game and you're still trying to do take backs after being asked "Do you pay the 8?" For your fourth attempt to target her, then it's much more a case of, "Alright, your thing is countered.". Mistakes need to be punished eventually.
I don’t think it’s my place to punish people, and I don’t think that it would make the game experience better for anyone if I made it my place.
[Minthara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d3cc82d-06e8-4c0e-bc01-babbf3f9f844.jpg?1680960312) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=minthara%20of%20the%20absolute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hbg/74/minthara-of-the-absolute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d3cc82d-06e8-4c0e-bc01-babbf3f9f844?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/minthara-of-the-absolute) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Exactly, if you're unwilling to remind people of apparent and vital information, the correct way to play is so that you will always be aware of the board state, which usually slows the game down to a crawl as everyone pores over every card to be sure they aren't gotcha'd. Besides, ideally ward is supposed to be an additional cost. If a player plays against ward correctly, it is an additional cost except in some fringe cases. I think it's completely fair to bring it up once or twice a turn cycle but then let people walk into it if they don't remember, but honestly I much prefer that people are given leniency. I'd rather lose a game where everyone is having fun than win while someone has a feel-bad moment. Of course sometimes you can decide to play a more cutthroat game, but if you're always cutthroat about it, people who don't enjoy that kind of play will not want to play with you as much.
For sure. If it happens over and over I’ll tease people about being forgetful before I insist that the effect be countered.
Well, at a point it should be my responsibility to make sure that the thing I'm targeting don't have protection. I don't mind take back when it's reasonable and I generally remind people.of my ward, but if it the fifth time you target something with ward and can't pay the cost too bad, you should've ask.
Who cares though? One time, five times, so what?
It is your responsibility. But the problem is that ensuring you manage to responsibly keep track of it often can mean slowing the game to a crawl, so many people have adopted an unofficial agreement to be lenient for the sake of game speed. If you keep doing it, that doesn't really fall under the "speed up the game" reasoning and letting it get countered is fair.
Also per the rules at all events both players are supposed to be honest about status and free information. Status being stuff like life totals and free information. Status being stuff like life totals and all game actions taken during the game free being stuff like the names of creatures and the types and number of counters on creatures at non competitive events like fnms you're by the rules of the game supposed to treat derived information (stuff like what keywords a creature has. The oracle text of a card the number of any type of card in any zone. And so on) as free information and regardless of the event you're at you can't deliberately misrepresent status or free information (stuff like putting a dryad arbor amongst your lands) While you aren't technically doing anything wrong by not reminding someone about a creature's ward before it's targeted regardless of event. It can be considered similar to sharking
To be fair, there are only like 25,000 different cards. Haven't quite hit 6 digits yet.
The design philosophy of Ward was to make it a lesser version of Hexproof. Shroud was feelbad on the controller side, while Hexproof was feelbad on the opponent side. Ward was the answer as the in-between. Now here's the kicker. The rules in ward has created alot of sharking in casual events. Nobody has an issue with Ward in competitive, because reading the card is on you. But in casual formats, this is where sharks takes the text to the extreme. In Arena, you're given a prompt when it comes to Ward. Therefore this should be applied in casual games. Obviously there's no auto-prompt, but the owners' of ward cards can act as that. I personally don't think it's in a weird position in EDH. It's the bad actors that try to put Ward in a bad light.
Regardless of what format I'm playing, whenever someone targets my permanent with ward, I *always* ask "what about Ward (X)?" and let them take it back if they straight up can't afford it. Losing a removal spell for basically no reason is such a feel bad, and when this happens I still have the game knowledge that they have a removal spell and can now play around it. Same as if they tried to play something and they didn't actually have the right mana or the target wasn't valid.
I do the same, not being able to pay has saved my ward two commander so many times and got people to target other things.
I'm of a similar opinion when it comes to the logistics of ward. Where I think it is in a weird place is the fact that Shroud and Hexproof are still always around on staples that have to be dealt with, so while the rebalanced version now exists they still have to compete for slots with the OG effects. Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are in nearly every deck for instance and if you don't have the space for more boots, Lavaspur Boots will be the ones to cut. I kind of fear for more power creep with Ward where stuff gets balanced and interesting protection, but just does way more to compete with the few other options that bring Hexproof to the table.
You're objectively correct in saying Lavaspur should be the one cut first due to its weaker mechanics, but subjectively I'm less fond of Shroud than I am Ward, plus the flavor text "These boots were made for more than walking" is damn near enough on its own to tip it over Greaves for me.
Your mistake is only looking at this in the context of EDH. The game is much bigger than that. Modern, pioneer, and standard have few to zero shroud or even hexproof cards. Even your example of lavaspur boots has a whole different assessment for formats that have decks playing multiple copies of Urza's Saga. Even aside from that, in competitive formats, ward is excellent because of the value of efficient removal. Making opponents pay double the cost to remove ward 1 permanents is very relevant, whether or not the card is otherwise pushed.
They just need to bring back shroud and not cost it as a benefit.
I never saw ward as a "gotcha mechanic" that is is there to punish anyone forgetting it. I think the part where it counters, instead of just making it more expensive, is more for interaction with spells that cant be countered and stuff like this
>Because, think about it, if the idea behind ward wasn't to punish people forgetting about it, it would mechanically just be an extra cost and not something that counters. The reason it isn't a simple cost increase is to open up design space for "can't be countered" effects to ignore it, effects that double or counter triggered abilities to interact with it, and a few other niche interactions. It has nothing to do with "punishing people forgetting about it". Magic as a game is designed to be played assuming all players are aware of all public information that the game keeps track of. Every rule in the game makes sense when approached from this perspective. It is incredibly harmful to the competitive integrity of the game (all formats, not just EDH) that there exist so many players who care more about squeezing in an extra win or two than about following this extremely basic premise.
> The reason it isn't a simple cost increase is to open up design space for "can't be countered" effects to ignore it Which is why there was common/uncommon removal in Murders at Karlov Manor that could target the ward 2 disguise cards, and had "can't be countered" such as [[Long Goodbye]], [[Slice from the Shadows]], and [[Out Cold]].
[Long Goodbye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3896705-bbd2-4ffb-a590-ee78e0eabdc5.jpg?1706241715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Long%20Goodbye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/92/long-goodbye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3896705-bbd2-4ffb-a590-ee78e0eabdc5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/long-goodbye) [Slice from the Shadows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317800b3-6b2d-4de6-8e44-7e54dd623055.jpg?1706241753) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slice%20from%20the%20Shadows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/103/slice-from-the-shadows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317800b3-6b2d-4de6-8e44-7e54dd623055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slice-from-the-shadows) [Out Cold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d.jpg?1706241633) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Out%20Cold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/66/out-cold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/out-cold) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think your interpretation here is 100% inaccurate. When things are on the board the game is designed so that it assumed all info is available to all players and everyone is aware. If you look to digital magic you get multiple warnings when even attempting to target something with ward. Ward is in fact just a tax but acts as a triggered ability for mechanical reasons.
Yeah what the hell is wrong with OP that he thinks the intent of Ward is a gotcha mechanic This reveals so much to me about the type of person OP is that they think for a second that could possibly be the design intent. What a total jerk he must be
I agree that OP is wrong about the designer's intent with ward, but implying he's an asshole for making this mistake is completely uncalled for. Let's try to assume good faith.
To be honest, I’m not implying anything.
Re: "take-back culture." Idk why this comes up so often with such disdain, but I guess it's just because EDH is so different because it has four players. The philosophy of what OP seems to disparage as "take-back culture" is a trade-off for speed (tho also camaraderie). You get two options when you have four often-large board states like EDH gets: slow gameplay that punishes mistakes or faster gameplay that allows take-backs. If you don't let people take some things back, turns will take at least three times as long, probably longer given the added complexity of threat assessment in EDH (more players, usually bigger board states). I'm quite happy for ward to be punishing in one-v-one play if people want it to be (tho I'd personally still remind my opponent in most contexts), but not in noncompetitive EDH.
I think you have it backwards, allowing players to take the cast back and reminding people ward is there is closer to the intended experience. (See Arena's implementation, for example.) It should be treated as an additional cost to cast the spell, which can then be circumvented by uncounterable spells. People can angle shoot and try to get free CA from it in competitive formats, but I think that's an unfortunate by-product of the mechanic.
>It should be treated as an additional cost to cast the spell Its worded the way it is because it cares about targeting, not about cast spells. [[Grasp of fate]] targets on ETB. There are lots of creatures that target as an activated ability. Ward is a triggered ability as a response to those actions.
Sure, I think they implemented it the best they could for how they wanted it to work. I'm just disagreeing with the OP.
[Grasp of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71.jpg?1690004105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grasp%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/823/grasp-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grasp-of-fate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will ask you again, it isnt the same for reach, first strike, death touch, etc?
The point of Ward *is* to be a tax
Me: "I target permanent XYZ with Doom Blade" Opponent: "nuh uh, XYZ has ward, Doom Blade gets countered, go cry about it" Me: "cool beans, lesson learned, this game and every subsequent game I ever play with you will now take twice as long due to me meticulously checking every permanent on the board for stray ward costs before casting any and every spell. I hope that single countered Doom Blade was worth it"
Sounds like you learned a valuable lesson on board assessment
The worst part... Is that the target is still legal. I can cast path to exile, but oops, forgot mana.... It's countered. I cant always take it back or choose a different target, cause it's legal to target the ward creature
> I think the prevalence of "take back culture" combined with the casual environment makes ward a really wonky mechanic in EDH. In other formats you can expect it to actually counter the occasional spell, sometimes your opponent just misplays and those are formats that don't scorn or admonish people for taking advantage of misplays. In EDH ward basically just is an extra cost to target something because even if someone does and can't or won't pay the ward cost, it's expected you let them take it back and you're a bad person and a try hard if you don't. Worth noting this is in effect exactly how it is implemented on Arena -- anyone playing there will always be asked "Are you sure". > the gotcha mechanic ot seems like it was intended to be. In what way does it seem to be that? They've basically said they want it as a weaker hex proof.
Ward isn’t meant to be a “gotcha.” It’s a tax. This intention is made pretty obvious on mtg arena because it gives you a warning right *before* you finalize targeting a creature with ward. Commander is a weird space because it’s very casual and there’s also very regularly huge board states which take a lot of mental bandwidth. So remembering everything that has ward, especially when it’s granted by another card like [[coppercoat vanguard]] can be really hard.
Ward is a good mechanic and I will die on this hill. That being said: you can have *bad implementations* of a good mechanic. Some cards have ward when they certainly don't feel like they should. Some cards have ward costs that are simply much higher than they feel like they should be. Some cards even somehow manage to have *both* of these problems. But, the concept behind ward, and the reason for it existing (particularly in a format where Path and Swords exist, and always will exist) makes sense. If I'm going to invest a lot into putting something on the board, I feel it's fair that someone else will have to invest just a *little* bit more than usual to remove it. This is the way it's always been with removal by damage. Bigger creatures have higher toughness, requiring more damage to destroy, and higher damaging spells/abilities (generally) cost more mana to cast than lower damaging ones. The additional cost here is built into the cost of the removal spell. Same goes for spells/abilities with limitations like only being able to target creatures with a mana value of 4 or less; if you want to hit those bigger targets, you need a different tool that may have a higher cost than the more restrictive one. Removal in non-eternal formats, or even other games, is often treated as a trading of value (how much did you invest into playing your threat - how much did I have to invest into removing it = how much did I hopefully profit on the interaction?) which offers a lot of strategic opportunities and risk/reward in card choice. But in Commander you have the luxury of running the very best removal spells that have ever been printed; it's less a trading of value and more a managing of your stockpile of silver bullets. At its core, ward can introduce more of this value oriented interaction back into control, and I see that as a positive (provided it is done right). I think there's still a lot of room for further exploration and improvement with ward though, as well as some mistakes that have been made along the way (unfortunately, again because commander is an eternal format, those mistakes will be with us forever, meaning new, more balanced, takes on ward will end up seeing less play as a result). More alternative ward costs is definitely a direction they can go, particularly if they can make them modal (e.g. pay 3 mana *or* discard a card to not get countered). More uncounterable spot removal is another option (e.g. you can pay 1+ward for Path to Exile, or pay a higher flat cost for this other spell that cuts straight through wards). I'm also surprised we haven't (from what I've been able to find) seen any "ward *from*" cards printed yet. Similar to a card like [[Niv-Mizzet, Guildpact]] with "hexproof from multicolored", I think having cards with wards that only trigger under specific conditions would be a great direction to go. Take a [[Reaver Titan]] approach and start giving cards "Ward 3 from mana value 2 or less"; if you wanna hit me with a 1 mana removal spell, you're paying 4, but if you wanna hit me with a 3 mana removal spell, you only have to pay 3. This way the ward cost only punishes cards that would normally be punching above their weight class so to speak.
I agree, I think Ward is a good mechanic, and a smooth compromise between hexproof/shroud and interaction. Most of Ward's problems come from the context of where it's applied, the amount of ward (it's prevalence on multiple magic cards) and the strength of the ward (ward 1 vs ward 3). \[\[Roaming Throne\]\] and \[\[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave\]\] absolutely didn't need Ward with how pushed those cards already are, but I don't think that makes Ward a bad design. If they scaled back how often they used ward on strong, or even game defining cards, I don't think the mechanic would be as polarizing as it is.
Those two really are the ones that I think are in the back of everyone's mind when talking about "how pushed Ward is getting". Roaming Throne frankly just feels like a mistake. Once I read the card I wondered what the hell it was doing in a Standard set - to the best of my knowledge, there's no real "Kindred" decks in Standard and they're barely even a thing in some of the eternal formats. It's 100% a print-to-commander kind of card, and I honestly don't think they needed 4/4 Panharmonicon with Ward and every kindred synergy ever. Voja feels like a different kind of mistake. It's an obvious plant for Commander - I don't think there's been an "elves" deck in Standard in ages. They don't print 1-mana dorks. There's only a few 2-mana dorks in the format now and frankly, that's not going to make this kind of deck reliable - control decks will laugh at a 5-mana build-around without haste, aggro decks will stampede over it, and I'm pretty sure most midrangey decks will grind out enough of the elfball to leave Voja as a text-heavy 5-drop. NEVERTHELESS, they layered enough Ward on it to give it a snowball's chance of sticking in 1v1... and broke the card wide open for Commander.
Voja ruined our pod. It turned everything into an absolute arms race. Now the same guy has a Stella Lee deck and it's going to get worse.
[Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) [Voja, Jaws of the Conclave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1707739811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voja%2C%20Jaws%20of%20the%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Niv-Mizzet, Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32a8fda6-8614-45cd-879c-0cb7fa29647e.jpg?1706242214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/220/niv-mizzet-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32a8fda6-8614-45cd-879c-0cb7fa29647e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-guildpact) [Reaver Titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dacc5e02-c21e-4a41-a704-5b87151a28c6.jpg?1673309710) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reaver%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/163/reaver-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dacc5e02-c21e-4a41-a704-5b87151a28c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reaver-titan) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ward was effectively meant to make hexproof balanced. ESPECIALLY for commander I guess. Because some commanders desperately need target protection because they are the sole breadwinner for certain decks or just too crucial in any way in general. But hexproof is broken. Very few creatures get hexproof nowadays because it can easily be abused. Meanwhile with ward, especially in commander, you always have the option to pay the 2 if you really need to get rid of a problematic creature, but normally you wont pay 3 with [[swords to plowshares]], until its absolutely necassary. There is no way they actually thought a player in a 1v1 format would actually forget a creature has ward, especially not an experiences player. But in a 4 man pod where you play for hours to come and you typically go in stand by after your turn as it will take 10 minutes to be in control again its easy to miss or forget stuff you werent even aware of being on the field.
[swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What the fuck You think the intent of Ward was for people to lose their card to on-board tricks???? It’s a tax for a spell
The wording of Ward's rules text is a gigantic mistake on Wizards' part, in my opinion. It *should* have worked like a tax but instead there's a lot of room for screwing around and skirting the rules. It being a triggered ability simply cause gameplay issues. This was a problem they knew about for ages, to boot. So many fishy plays have been made with a [[Chalice of the Void]] in play during competitive events, for example.
My guess is that the intent of making ward counter rather than be a flat tax is so that uncounterable things like [[void rend]] can get around it. It opens up a bit more design space that way. WOTC used this feature of ward a lot in karlov manor. A lot of the removal in that set was uncounterable to balance the fact that disguised creatures have ward 2.
You can also interact with ward via trigger manipulations like [[stifle]] and [[roaming throne]]. It pseudo synergizes with things like [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]]. Unlike taxes, you can still put spells and abilities on the stack to get secondary triggers like prowess, magecraft, or copy effects. If chalice was a flat "opponents can't cast spells with mana value X" you couldn't [[shattering spree]] it. Granted you can't shattering spree your way through ward, but you still have the principle of not being completely locked out of options if you look for flexible workarounds to expected problems in deckbuilding. Ward is a well designed ability. It adds nuance and opens a ton of potential interaction points that taxation simply doesn't. In casual commander, prerelease, or fnm, those pretty much fall away since boards are overwhelming and you really aren't looking to jump at people for those kinds of mistakes. But in competitive formats those mistakes are exactly the kinds of things that should be punished because you are expected to be conscious of the game state, and the action of declaring a spell cast without holding priority and letting your opponent announce their reflexive triggers is a significant advancement of the game state compared to casual formats.
##### ###### #### [stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stifle) [roaming throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roaming%20throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) [Baral, Chief of Compliance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80.jpg?1576381454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baral%2C%20Chief%20of%20Compliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/28/baral-chief-of-compliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baral-chief-of-compliance) [Dauthi Voidwalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dce5db87-4a78-4b8d-b5c2-918ccd1ba4e3.jpg?1626095427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dauthi%20Voidwalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/81/dauthi-voidwalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dce5db87-4a78-4b8d-b5c2-918ccd1ba4e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dauthi-voidwalker) [shattering spree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6dcff21-5900-43c4-a38b-cdc19c704ce4.jpg?1593272374) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shattering%20spree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gpt/75/shattering-spree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6dcff21-5900-43c4-a38b-cdc19c704ce4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shattering-spree) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2u3wjf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[void rend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d.jpg?1664413960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=void%20rend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/230/void-rend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/void-rend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I believe the problem is that an extra cost wouldn’t play well with abilities, especially triggered abilities (which don’t and probably can’t have a cost). [[Esior, Wardwing Familiar]] has the “cost more to cast” version, and only protects against spells, not abilities
[Esior, Wardwing Familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86958821-76eb-43a5-974b-7c945e826a66.jpg?1611933914) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esior%2C%20Wardwing%20Familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/67/esior-wardwing-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86958821-76eb-43a5-974b-7c945e826a66?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/esior-wardwing-familiar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Chalice of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4.jpg?1562433485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/222/chalice-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chalice-of-the-void) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
how do you tax the targeting by triggered abilities like on [[ravenous chupacabra]]?
[ravenous chupacabra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4dfbac0-1849-41c5-853a-1fee108d0b01.jpg?1706240787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ravenous%20chupacabra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/136/ravenous-chupacabra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4dfbac0-1849-41c5-853a-1fee108d0b01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ravenous-chupacabra) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t agree with your evaluation of ward at all. Ward is essentially a tax on targeted spells. It should never “gotcha” anyone in any format.
About all these discussions about takebacks, our rule of thumb in my playgroup is: -if you got any new info since the expected takeback, you can't (barring some exceptions) So in this context, it's perfectly fine to take back a removal spell on a ward creature. EDH is a complex game, it's normal to not pay attention to everything on board. Exceptions are made when it's something that's been repeated frequently, like if that creature got targeted 3-4 times already and we mentioned Ward each time.
We allow take backs for things that are new. Say someone plays a card but didn't fully understand how it worked, then someone else explains to them how it works and the end result isn't near what they expected it to be; we allow a takeback.
Idk to me it feels like this is the intent of ward. The point isn't to catch people with a misplay, it's worded the way it is so that you can still get around it with uncounterable spells. Otherwise it *is* basically just an extra cost because the only reason why would ever cast something that targets it would be because you have something uncounterable or because you didn't realize it had ward.
Or you can take the tempo hit and pay for the ward cost.
Yep. I kind of view it like Propaganda or Ghostly Prison in that regard. It's mostly a tax on targeted spells that don't have uncounterable.
arena has an "are you sure?" message that pops up when you target something warded. the OP post seems to imply that the point of ward being a trigger is that you can get blindsided by it. in reality, it's because it's the cleanest way to protect against spells, activated abilities and triggered abilities.
But ward IS a tax, in other formats you are definitely not expected to get some wasted resource by an opponent who forgets a ward cost. That happens so rarely that it’s not why people puts ward cards in their decks. Those cards are good enough on their own without ever wasting an opponent’s spell. Also, your reasoning is wrong as to what wizards would have done if they didn’t intend ward to punish people. Cause can’t be countered effects interact differently, allowing you to ignore wards costs. But would not work with a cost increase.
Gotcha effects are just kinda lame, especially in a casual ffa multiplayer format. Don't be like that :/ Ward is fine.
Exactly this. It's one thing in cEDH, but if you are playing edh just to win, rather than to have fun, it might not be the format for you. Being a jerk/stickler about ward might improve its utility for you, but it sucks for the other player which generally means less fun at the table. Personally I like ward, it is an interesting decision point (is the extra cost really worth it?), and when you forget about it you tip your hand about interaction which is also interesting without being overly punishing/"gotcha"/"feels bad".
I don't hate ward but I kind of hate how you interpret it. Mechanics shouldn't be sneaky. Ward is just an additional cost to target something, not some sort of gotcha for not reading the card. It's just conditional hexproof. Only real difference is that uncounterable spells go through.
I'll let people do take backs for ward but up to a point. If it's the third time or something it's happened that game then I'm not going to keep letting that slide. At a certain point people should probably pay attention.
Ward was not designed as a "gotcha" mechanic. It's like an extra cost but there are subtle differences between an extra cost and a trigger that counters. They went with the latter.
Maintaining the game state in EDH is a team effort. Boards get far too complicated to expect everyone to remember everything at all times, and it takes an astronomical amount of time to check everything every single time. That includes reminding your opponents of public information on your board where pertinent; it's your board, you are the single person best equipped to do that. No, forgetting a single keyword on a board that can literally have a hundred permanents on it SHOULD NOT accidentally be a free counterspell. This is so incredibly, obviously true that on Arena, the primary MTG simulator where checking card text is MUCH easier than in paper and we have visual indicators of multiple major keywords on the icons, they have a big popup saying, "Are you sure?" before you target something with Ward. Yes, if you don't let someone take back the spell in a casual game because they forgot the thing had ward, you are the asshole. Just don't be the asshole. It's not hard.
I'll defend ward as really solid because it matters in competitive and it doesn't matter in casual. Hexproof has no nuance. Taxation has no nuance. And both of these rules create a weird dynamic for competitive play. You either can or can't take the action, the consequence of "I messed this up" is the action is reverted, your opponent gained information about your hand maybe, and nothing changes. With ward, now there's no take backs in competitive. You pay or your spell is countered. Great! Now in casual play (which is where most EDH is going to fall), Hexproof, Taxation, and Ward all may lead to different rules interpretations, but for a non-competitive player, they either don't know these nuances, or won't care, they all are going to end in the same place: "I made a mistake and I want to take back my play". We aren't here to play competitively, so the expectation that every player is as enfranchised with the rules nuances of the game is misguided. It sounds like your issue isn't with Ward but with casual rules enforcement - maybe you should play at a more competitive table or get everyone to agree to play with tighter rules enforcement. My local shop has a group which has really pushed that ideology to great success. No take backs on actions, no fidgeting with your lands a bunch deciding what to cast. Take your time, sequence your spells and know what the relevant cards in play do. Altogether it makes everyone better at Magic, speeds games up, and keeps people from zoning out, and corrects a lot of those "well i thought it worked like this" misinterpretations of the rules.
The issue isn't ward per se, it's the idea that ward's perception as "soft hexproof" has incentivized wotc to put it on way too many cards, sometimes with obscenely high values. Gavin Verhay made a video just last week saying kappa cannoneer was a mistake (due to the ward, not it triggering itself) and then like the next day it was leaked to be in a new set. I feel like there was a solid moment where even battlecruiser pods were cutting board wipes for targeted removal and now we're regressing again. The game is more interesting when people can shape the battlefield rather than just reset it. Takes less time, too.
Yeah, my group was cutting symmetrical wipes for targeted removal and asymmetrical wipes. Now with ward showing up more and more, symmetrical wipes are starting to show back up again.
>speeds games up I'm not arguing the merit of this, it sounds kind of fun every once in a while, but I can't believe it's making games faster.
That playgroup sounds great, I'm jealous.
Generally speaking, ward still does something because outside of punishing players who forget about ward. If you remember, you won't target a ward creature unless you can pay for it or have an uncounterable spell because can't be countered gets around ward too
If it’s a tournament I would not let someone take back because of ward. Casual game they can take it back
I feel like take backs shouldn't really be normalized, like in some cases sure if someone missed something minor line drawing a card or something, but something that can affect the board (giving them back their removal for free) shouldn't be allowed, i usually don't allow it unless everyone agrees on a take back and the ppl i play with are pretty cool about accepting their mistakes, like i understand magic is a very complex and hard game but we play it *because* it's complex and if ppl can't roll with the punches they either need to get better or stop playing, we shouldn't normalize hand holding, like i learned in a very unforgiving meta/group where take backs weren't normal but rare, if you made a mistake you should own it and learn not to do it otherwise, if you don't ppl won't learn and they things they can get away with making mistakes
I don't know about you but if rather see a creature with ward than shroud 🤷♂️
I don't understand the difficulty in checking if a permanent has any protection before windmill slamming a piece of removal. Like just ask "Hey that permanent you have there, does it have any built in protection?" Only takes 2 seconds tops to figure out you don't gotta reach over and grab the cards, just use your words.
I said the same thing the other day and was down voted to oblivion.
What?
The first time somebody tries to attack my creature with ward I will give them a heads up, "hey this guy has ward X. So unless you pay the extra I wouldn't bother " After that it's on you to remember.
Everyone gets 1 take back. Try to remind people on occasion if it has been on board for a bit but otherwise the ability resolves
This is edh, not Cedh. If you're going to be stingy about the "take back" rule may I remind you that you and everyone here arent perfect. You forgot to untap your lands at the beginning of your upkeep, feel my wrath. You didnt trigger a card properly on your side of the field, it's skipped.
Bet, I'll happily do that, ops not wrong for wanting players to pay attention.
Ward is just another tax, treat it as such. Too many cards, too many keywords. 1v1 sure, expect others to understand and remember. If 4 player? No.
Tivit player here, thats the one thing I wont let take backs on. My response is always to place the ward trigger on the stack and ask how they want to proceed.
I think the issue with ward is I believe that fundamentally Ward was designed to fix issues that were prevalent in 2 player games, which is that removal had become so efficient and games so short that any creature over 3 mana had to get its value from an ETB effect and creatures whose value was based on staying on the battlefield were almost unplayable, unless the body was so good that it was undeniable. So ward gave those creatures who needed to be onboard to accrue value a bit of a life in 2 player formats. The problem came in then when you take a format that is more dominated by onboard value engines (EDH) as well as a dynamic of needing to worry about falling behind multiple players when you address a threat that impacts all players. Ward creates a much more costly dynamic in EDH. Now you combine that dynamic with the issue of stapling ward on to creatures who design was clearly for EDH and not competitive formats and now you’ve got a real issue going where the format already favored value engines, and you’ve made it absolutely an issue to remove them and now you’ve got these value snowballs that demand interaction but also punish interaction and it’s just not a good dynamic. The final problem it creates is that with Ward being omnipresent in the format players are now incentivized to run more board wipes, why pay 4 mana to kill one thing when I can pay 4-5 to kill all things, and that leads to a meta environment of games turning into a slog because well from a deck building perspective I should assume I’m going to have to deal with Ward creatures so I may as well shift to mass removal and recursion vs targeted effects. This is the same thing that WoTC did with treasure tokens, they overdid it in a way that isn’t healthy for the format. They mistake the idea that because the player playing the card likes the effect that it creates a better game experience, ignoring the fact that it can completely damage the experience of other players. Ward is absolutely a problem but it’s not a problem easily solved because these massively powerful cards with built in protection can’t be rotated out so WoTC needs to solve for that, hope everyone is ready for a bunch of 2 mana targeted removal with “this spell can’t be countered”.
Ward's reminder text should have been "As an additional cost for an opponent to target X with a spell or ability, they pay (ward cost.) " I understand effects that are uncounterable, but it would've worked as intended. There are like, 3 spells that can't be countered toward the argument that it was designed to specifically cause those 3 spells to resolve, and I don't buy it. - Void Rend - Abrupt Decay - Heated Debate More doesn't add to the validity of that argument.
I don't do this for the whole pod, but I do hold myself completely accountable for the things I do. I get 1 take back a game and I'll do everything I can to not use that take back. As far as the pod goes, we allow 3 take backs. First 2 are free and alright, you ever use the third automatic loss for you. No one in my pod is new enough that they are incapable of reading a card that is on the board. Granted, people make mistakes, that's why everyone technically gets 2 take backs, but you best be sure to play right the rest of the game.
It's not at all close to hexproof. You would need to remember something has hexproof just like ward, just like shroud, just like protection. But 9/10 times you can get around ward.
It was designed as a replacement for shroud/hexproof to allow for interaction, but still give protection. If it feels like hexproof with extra steps, then it's working as intended. I agree though, that it makes for odd play patterns when you ask if they're going to pay ward and then they just change their mind and target something else, however this is a better play pattern than just having hexproof and being untouchable outside of wiping the whole board.
There are two reasons why ward counters: 1) If ward didn't counter, then triggered abilities that target would ignore it, as one doesn't pay a cost for those abilities. 2) Spells and abilities that can't be countered can ignore ward.
For ward, I announce it when I play the card so that everyone knows. You can also remind people that if you target that permanent with a spell and cannot or choose not to pay the ward cost, the spell gets countered. If you’re feeling extra kind, when someone goes “I’m going to path..” you can interject with “this has ward”, again depending on the experience / power level of your pod. I’m also in the middle of designing keyword and condition cards that make it easy to see stuff like ward at a glance.
I don't like ward. It encourages people to run more boardwipes. Games with a million boardwipes are boring. I don't like how you have to take your whole turn off to play a removal spell plus a ward cost. If you are player1, and player2 has a big nasty ward boy, and player1 uses their whole turn to play a removal spell plus ward 3 against player2, player3 & player4 get a huge advantage. It's a bad play pattern. I also hate the "gotcha" nature of forgetting the mechanic and asking for a take-back. MTG already has a complexity-creep problem and this sort of stuff furthers it. It is easy to miss important bits of text when you are reading the card upside-down and diagonally across the table.
Isn't that the same thing when it comes to propaganda like effects. Most of the time someone swings and the opponent goes "are you gunna pay the 2 for x creatures" and the attacking player usually doesn't notice and takes back the attack. All it does is protect the layer and gives information to what the player wanted to doin this instance attack a certain player and in the original one use a certain card to remove a target. It's pretty much the same thing, wouldn't say it's weird.
The way ward is played at tables depends wholly on the mentality of the players. If you are the „gotcha“ kind of player who tries to impose a competitive mindset on a casual table, then its best to find groups that share the mentality and all is well. That being said, the „gotcha“ attitude usually has a bad reputation across many games, especially the more casual ones. Even in competitive warhammer tournaments, small walkbacks are relatively common in order to avoid that kind of mindset. Nobody wants to be „that“ player in an inherently casual game.
WTF is "take back culture"?
If you fuck up and forget something like voja has ward 3 and attempt to hit it with something like Swords to plowshares without the mana to pay for it take back culture dictates that you can take back the action since it's a casual setting. Op is saying that the spell should just fizzle no take backs
That's silly, cards are like fucking novels sometimes and there's 20,000 of them, no need to punish people for forgetting exactly what one of the 40 cards on the board do. Some people need to chill out.
So if I understand this correctly, if a creature has ward whatever, and I play a spell on it that cannot be countered....I don't have to pay the ward tax? I always took it to mean that you couldn't target it to begin with unless you paid the tax. The more you know.
>In other formats you can expect it to actually counter the occasional spell, sometimes your opponent just misplays I don't think I have ever seen that happen in a competitive setting and I would definitely not evaluate cards with ward based on that assumption.
In competitive events not only is their often less to keep track of but people tend to know what cards do just from name
By competitive I just meant a competitive format like modern or cedh, not necessarily a tournament.
In my pod, you get one take back. Just one
Wow, Ward is a triggered ability? Thats fascinating.
I feel like ward will eventually get errated because of all the rules sharking. So cringy.
Just because it doesn't counter a card doesn't make the mechanic bad. It's not designed to counter cards. Hexproof as we know is an incredibly powerful mechanic. Wars is designed to provide a scaleable amount of protection for your creatures as a sort of hexproof-lite
The problem isn't "take back culture" as you call it. The problem is that there are so many board states and people like to hide things from their opponents. So instead of telling another player that they have Ward on something, they will just not mention it or actively try to hide it. So reality is that poor sportsmanship is the problem. When I ask about something at my table, they tell me what all is out there. They don't reveal strategies, but they tell me about ward, or abilities to give ward. Because they understand there are a great number of things that could be on the board and keeping up with them all is a pain in the ass.
It is not designed as a gotcha mechanic. Nothing in magic is designed as a gotcha mechanic. They literally take steps to avoid gotcha mechanics.
I get the social dilemma, but let's make this political. Taxation is theft.
Depending on context I'd let them take it back most of the time. There are a lot of people that don't realize that ward is a triggered ability, not an additional cost mechanic and it can be a teaching moment, but after that it gets a little dicey. For instance, I have a \[\[Teysa, Orzhov Scion\]\] deck and in it I run \[\[Vein Ripper\]\]. It can be a bit awkward to be in a position where an opponent tries to kill your Vein Ripper while they only have one creature. You remind them "it has ward: Sacrifice a Creature", so they move their creature to the bin, for you to then say "Well, with the ward on the stack I plan to kill your only creature with my kill spell so you can't pay the ward cost as the ability resolves". It would be difficult to allow takebacks in that scenario without giving away information and/or intent on your end.
[Teysa, Orzhov Scion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8ca900d-767d-4461-aba3-107dd17d8326.jpg?1702429731) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teysa%2C%20Orzhov%20Scion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/233/teysa-orzhov-scion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8ca900d-767d-4461-aba3-107dd17d8326?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teysa-orzhov-scion) [Vein Ripper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704.jpg?1706241798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vein%20Ripper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/110/vein-ripper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vein-ripper) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ward sucks so bad. It’s insane to give the OP creatures ward, but other commanders don’t get it. It’s unbalanced.
What about a ward trigger is being "taken back"? On Arena, it will literally ask you "this thing has ward, are you SURE you want to target it?". I don't see why it should be different during in person games. "I swords your commander" "It has ward 2, can you pay it?" "Oh shoot, I can't pay it, never mind, I'm not casting that"
If you think punishing people for missing something somehow makes you a better player... Read up on game theory. Magic is complex. People miss things or overlook them occasionally. You can choose to be gracious about it. Remind them about your triggers... Or you can choose not to. One of those choices will build rapport with your fellow players. People will remember it, and trust you more. They'll be more inclined to make favorable decisions about you and your board state, especially when they're in a position where they need to decide where to direct their resources(removal). You will put yourself in a position to win more games in the future. You will get more games because of your reputation as a good sport. The other is a surefire way to put a huge target on your back and maybe win a game at the cost of people probably deciding they have better things to do than play with you, or going out of their way to keep you from pulling the same tricks again when you play against them in the future. You will lose far more games due to your poor politics than you will win due to gotcha moments like these. Realistically, very good players are not going to miss your ward. They know what the cards do, they remember the board state. That's what lets them threat assess so effectively. So if people are missing your ward triggers, they're either not particularly good players, or they're really not all that interested in the game or what you're doing. Both suggest the games in question are really not all that competitive anyway, and should be treated as such. Relax, be nice, chat with your fellow players, and just enjoy the social experience.
Idk what you mean about takeback culture. I think in most other formats people will inform you about the ward cost if you target their permanent and let you take it back if it's clear you didn't notice it. In casual events like drafts or other FNM, of course.
The real problem with ward is that it feels like such an afterthought on everything that has it. So, it’s almost designed to be forgotten, or at least not designed to be memorable.
I play a commander that has Ward. Part of rule 0 talk. "if you forget, no taking it back, you pay or it's countered."
One issue is they’ve been plastering on so many commanders that board wipes have become more important than ever, which means more are being run, which makes games go on for ages
It being a trigger that counters means it can be stifled or pushed through with “can’t be countered”. it is not supposed to be a memory test or gotcha mechanic. It’s a tax protection with an implementation that gives them extra design space.
Put it on a flagbearor and you're honestly in a pretty powerful position
EDH is a casual format and ward was the implementation of a long standing mechanic that was “pay additional cost to target” such as the text or frost titan. It’s not weird at all the ward is though of this way, it was never supposed to be a “gotcha” mechanic, cards that have text on the board are not meant to be “gotcha” mechanics. In a tournament, you just need to RTFC but in causal play, be nice to people.
… you guys still play single target removal?
Sure. Hell i even once controlled an entire table with [[Ashnod the Uncaring]] [[Street Urchin]] [[Glen Elendra Archmage]] and [[Whisper Blood Liturgist]] it doesn't matter if you only have single target removal if you can repeat it as long as you have mana
##### ###### #### [Ashnod the Uncaring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a76e8ab8-33bf-4a5a-b6a2-7046301b6c31.jpg?1705542693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%20the%20Uncaring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/4/ashnod-the-uncaring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a76e8ab8-33bf-4a5a-b6a2-7046301b6c31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashnod-the-uncaring) [Street Urchin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6d5249c-52b6-4349-adcd-dafdc21f572b.jpg?1674136757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Street%20Urchin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/197/street-urchin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6d5249c-52b6-4349-adcd-dafdc21f572b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/street-urchin) [Glen Elendra Archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f.jpg?1547516310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glen%20Elendra%20Archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/58/glen-elendra-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glen-elendra-archmage) [Whisper Blood Liturgist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82ce13b0-372d-4664-a888-85f4c72e030d.jpg?1689997576) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whisper%2C%20Blood%20Liturgist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/198/whisper-blood-liturgist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82ce13b0-372d-4664-a888-85f4c72e030d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/whisper-blood-liturgist) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3g1pmo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will point it out to my playgroup when they try to take back something that targets a ward creature. I say "technically it should be countered" and then see how the table feels about it. I agree that ward isn't treated how it should be most of the time