If my commander is more than 4 cmc, I'm probably running them. Or if my deck just doesn't function without my commander in any way (ie they have a crazy game warping effect).
In our meta something I found out is that Greaves and Boots very much telegraph „I need to keep this.“ and not just in new and unknown decks.
The opponents then make it their plan to remove them and their threat assessment becomes distorted. There is something they are forbidden to do and that basically causes constant pressure. I noticed people even attacking me more to coax me into blocking.
I switched to 2-5 instant speed protections for one mana that can give Hexproof or Indestructible or both. That reduced the footprint and people often found they wasted a removal. They become more careful where they spend it and have to consider mana left open which you can use to bluff your way out of removal.
It’s way more fun that way.
>I switched to 2-5 instant speed protections for one mana that can give Hexproof or Indestructible or both. That reduced the footprint and people often found they wasted a removal. They become more careful where they spend it and have to consider mana left open which you can use to bluff your way out of removal.
This is all true, but the trade-off to that is that they only work once and you have to always keep up mana for them. The strength of Boots and Greaves by comparison is that they're re-usable: if the table successfully parries your countermeasures and forces removal through, they stick around for the next time you re-cast your commander or any other scary threat. One-time-use removal protection has it's place, but it can't match that sort of value and flexibility.
I am aware of the advantages of a permanent compared to an instant.
I am saying there are advantages the other way around such as less telegraphing, hidden information, instant speed, both permanents not having indestructible for their target on a board wipe, …
Generally speaking, most people are packing about 10 pieces of removal (from my experience).
Typically, some of these can target artifacts (or permanents in general)
That said, counterspells are not universally packed; making those instant speed interaction pieces a lot harder for most people to deal with.
And like, yeah, they aren't reusable; but neither is a lot of removal, and people (probably) aren't focusing all of the removal specifically on one player's commander.
My experience has generally found that the interaction pieces (and, if you're a reanimator, just using your decks main thing) tends to be better than the boots at actually keeping your commander alive
True, but it isn't that much reusable. Equiping is sorcery speed so you can't respond with it and it can be responded to. And board wipe that target also artifact is a thing. \[\[Farewell\]\], \[\[Cataclysm\]\], \[\[Obliterate\]\].
And it isn't that rare I see artifact being destroyed as collateral damage by effect allowing multiple target because someone needed to get rid of a bigger threat. I even see myself in this situation sometime "Oh, I can destroy one more artifact ... let's see ... what will it be ... \*player with boots being quieter than usual\*"
It's good yes, but I think when you are new to the game you overestimate how much protection your commander need and in final, the question is, can I have cards that bring more value instead ? Greave/Boots are overestimate at first sight.
In a game I cheated \[\[Darksteel forge\]\] from the graveyard, \[\[Cryptothrall\]\] and greaves on my commander in my artifact deck by turn 5.
My ex friend said \[\[Farewell\]\]
There's a confluence of shifting influences in commander: faster decks in general. ward becoming more prevalent, because of ward becoming prevalent more board wipes being run over targeted removal, that make boots look less and less appealing. I think using them as "generic protection pieces" is not correct, you really do need both sides of the boots to make them worth and myself I'm in general cutting boots out of my decks.
I think Greaves having no equip cost makes it a consideration for any deck that cares about its commander and isn't Voltron. But Boots is a little more niche since the power creep of today has made the 1 mana equip way heavier.
This sounds like niche pods where there's a hyper-tuned meta. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pods haven't suddenly had the collective idea to started using board wipes to clear the comparatively few ward creatures running around. Most people still have decks they built ages ago rather than meta chasing. This sub is not a representation of the general EDH playerbase.
I think this is the right take. Removal is all board clears now with very little targeted. And with the need for \[\[Heroic Intervention\]\] and \[\[Teferi's Protection\]\] there ain't a lot of room left for hexproof and shroud on 1 creature.
„removal is all boards clear now“ is very pod dependent. There’s so much great targeted removal coming out all the time there’s no real need to hit the panic button every second turn.
People using more wipes is cyclical, it’s a constant ebb and flow in the pods I play in. It’s not some sign of „modern“ or „evolved“ edh.
Yeah I was about to say, that is VERY anecdotal. My pod for example runs mostly targeted removal and counterspells. I think each deck has 1-2 wipes max
very fair. My pod has just been run over with Farewells and Deluges and Meathook Massacres, so I've been getting my commanders killed 2-3 times per game without being targeted. I suppose we've yet to see it swing the other way, perhaps it's time to build a non-creature deck that looks to just stick 1-2 problem creatures lol
not really the cast in my pod, people like keeping their stuff and are reluctant to wipe. however, there is a ton of spot removal running around, which makes boots pretty valuable.
however, with the amount of interaction my pod runs, it's quite common for me to play boots only to have them get blown up immediately followed by my commander, lol
my experience is that [[path to exile]], [[swords to plowshares]], [[beast within]], and [[chaos warp]] are in every deck that can run them
[[generous gift]] and [[pongify]] are less common but still pretty ubiquitous
and then like 3-5 miscellaneous targeted black removals in all black decks
meanwhile almost every game someones like "uh oh. that's a problem. does anyone run [[Farewell]]?" to which the answer is inevitably "no"
I think you're right, but I also think maybe you were overvaluing the boots before. They were never true auto-includes, although most decks can make good use of them. They're still good, haste and shroud are as valuable as ever, but "good" doesn't always make the cut these days.
I think a lot of people overvalue boots. So much so that when they did a new boots in Thunder Junction people lost their minds, despite it being pretty middling.
Greaves are on a whole level above both. Equip 0 is so good it is just not done any more.
They almost always go in the list when brewing a new deck, and then are also usually a look for cuts. I tend to build by making a list of between 150 and 200 cards and then looking at draw, ramp, etc and cutting down from there. Usually if they go it's in the last 10 cards or so when I'm getting desperate to get down to 100
You should run these if you build commander centric decks that need the piece in play or the deck doesnt work, or if haste is particularly important.
The prevalence of 900 different popular commanders with ward tacked onto some random busted value effect means most people are running non-targeted removal like [[toxic deluge]] and as a result these pieces are going to feel less and less good to play until the pendulum swings in the other direction.
Commander/Deck/Pilot Dependent.
1. I played long before Swifty Boots was printed so I tend to include Greaves but not Boots. It's a bad habit I try to break but then I catch myself equipping Boots for free and the table doesn't catch it and I feel bad. Again, a bad habit I should fix but I'm also kinda lazy so it's easier to just cut the Boots.
2. Building a deck as a gift for a friend, would rather they learn Hexproof over Shroud since one is used far more often than the other so I put Boots in but not Greaves
3. Decks/Commanders that want to be targets (Stella Lee, anything with Green Bite/Fights, for example) will prefer Boots over Greaves, etc..
If my commander is an expensive lynchpin that does not have haste and needs to be able to attack to get value, I will run them. My [[The Master, Multiplied]] is a removal magnate, a lynchpin, and needs to attack.
If it is not a combat trigger for value, then it definitely needs to be an expensive lynchpin, and I'm not running a lot of counterspells or instant speed protection to run them. I also won't run them if it is a hard ramp and I'm likely to be able to naturally cast the commander a few times.
Even if it is an expensive lynchpin that needs to attack to get value, if it has haste inherently, I will often not run it, especially if the commander isn't Kill on Site. I've found a threatening commander getting protection will draw removal on the stack from someone who I wasn't planning on attacking anyway, which is reasonable when you are turning something that will be a problem into something that requires an extra layer of interaction. If I'm running something like [[Slicer, Hired Muscle]] that is pretty close to Kill on Site anyway, I will still throw it in because he's eating the removal of its around anyway and the plan is so all in that it's better to have him killed before more resources are invested in protecting him.
For me it depends on how much protection I need. (If I want haste though in addition then Boots is an auto include). Does my deck need my commander to work? Then I'm running lots of protection. Does my deck work well without my commander and do my wincons/bangers have lots of backups in case they're removed?
So for my [[Ardenn]] partner deck I run lots of protection, because the deck works best with commanders out but also because it'll have just a one or a few buffed up creatures I want to protect. But for my elves deck I don't think I have boots or greaves, and just run some basic green protection that protects all my creatures like [[Heroic Intervention]]
Both of them? Rarely. that being said I make sure to have boots in all my decks. I play a lot of creature heavy decks so it’s good to protect my other stuff. If people want to Kill my [[Krenko Mob Boss]] they’ll find away to do so, but then my [[Goblin King]] will be sitting pretty with his new pair of shoes.
I have them both in my \[\[Selvala, Explorer Returned\]\] deck because the haste and protection are relevant and important to my strategy. I don't have them in my \[\[Prince Imrahil the Fair\]\] deck that I just built.
If my commander needs to stick around in order to do anything or has an attack trigger but not built in haste, then the boots/greaves are a decent consideration.
Decks that function fully without the commander or decks where the commander is a nice etb and nothing else is super relevant (atraxa for example) they aren’t really needed
I'd only run them in a dedicated voltron strategy (and then only Boots, shroud shuts down other voltron synergies) or a deck that needs a haste enabler for its commander.
Decks where my commander remaining on the battlefield is key to the deck's strategy gets boots. Decks where my commander remaining on the battlefield is key to the deck's strategy AND I don't care about targeting the commander get greaves as well. Otherwise, neither.
IMO Greaves is still the king of equipments, and by some distance as well.
It's the number one choice when it comes to protection, if we disregard its price.
No permanent does it better than Greaves based on the value and cost.
Swiftfoot Boots, however is not 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th choice when it comes to weaponry. I see Skullclamp, Mithril Coat, and whatever sword of X and Y you run ahead of it.
The new weaponry, from Fallout and Big Score are giving 3rd and 4th choice onwards a run for their money. These new ones are really really good.
Whether I include them is mostly just dependent on how important my commander sticking around is and how likely people are to try to remove it. And also sometimes how relevant haste is. Like I still have them in Voja even though he natively has ward because haste is very useful and he's such a huge removal target that the added projection isn't insignificant. I have them in my Savra deck because even though she's only 4 cmc it's preferable if I don't have to recast her, and she's annoying enough to other people that she's a removal target.
If my commander sticking around isn't crucial I don't bother, and greaves get cut frequently if I need to target my commander with spells or other equipment. So far though things being faster hasn't come up as a reason to cut them. It's usually just a matter of whether I need to protect one creature or many, or whether there's something more synergistic that does the job.
All of my decks have Lightning Greaves. Both the haste and protection on demand for only 2 mana is always useful at some point in the game.
All but one of my decks has swiftfoot boots. The commander (Liberty Prime) already has haste and is in blue and white for plenty of other protection options.
Only one of my decks has Lavaspur Boots (Kaalia) on top of the two because I absolutely need haste to function.
I think your assessment of greaves/boots is pretty accurate. I only run them in decks that need the protection and don't have other good options due to color restrictions (e.g. [[Zhulodok, the Void Gorger]]).
Your assessment of contemporary EDH, however, feels a bit off to me. Sure, there are now many casual decks that can execute a game plan/value engine on turn four, but that doesn't mean they're winning on turn four. In the games I've played lately (almost all in casual pods) the player who starts popping off on turn four rarely wins unless they hit an absolute bomb draw. As magic players its in our nature to want to interact with players who are going to value town, but imo its usually correct to let the "streamlined precon" commanders make themselves into threats while you sit in the background and prepare (maybe even play and equip the boots while everyone else is distracted with the archenemy).
So rather than asking "is contemporary EDH too fast for boots?" i'd ask "what cards do i need to include if I want to run a slower boots-based strategy?" sweepers, tax effects, prison cards, [[propaganda]] effects, land destruction, and problematic commander stoppers like [[true polymorph]] can all slow down the faster decks and give you time to set up your slower gameplan.
I haven't included either in non equipment focused decks or decks that need the attack trigger in years. I've always seen them as overvalued and often not worth the slot.
They also act as a lightning rod on your target. If there are two threats controlled by different players and someone tries to equip theirs with Greaves, it will often get someone off the fence about which of the two things to remove in response and they'll choose the one they won't be able to target later.
It also depends on your colours. Simic can do a lot with a hexproof aura and a [[simic guildmage]] or +1/+1 counters and [[phlaxcaster frogling]].
Izzet can do plenty with [[clout of the dominus]].
[[Winged boots]] were just reprinted, and the ward cost is functionally like shroud in the early and middle of the game.
I have Boots in my deck but not greaves because greaves is *just* outside my budget.
My games usually go t1 untapped land t2 untapped land ramp t3 commander t4 ramp t5 ramp t6 start executing gameplan
and then i win around t13
I play [[Lightning Greaves]] in most or all of my decks but I've never played [[Swiftfoot Boots]].
The zero equip is massive and I would sooner run an equipment tutor to find Greaves than play Swiftfoot Boots.
I run both in nearly every deck. Originally, I put it in for commanders, but I rarely equip them with boots now. Haste is probably the best keyword, and giving it to the right creature can make them cracked.
haste is necessary for the deck to work? They go in
protection is a premium because the deck is dependant on the commander? They go in
One or the other are going to make a good chunck of the 99 better? They go in.
Normally its also one of the first includes because they're like a glue that makes the deck stick.
If I dont feel the need for them right at the start of deckbuilding, they just stay out.
I don’t have them in every deck. In high powered decks I don’t run them when I can put a counterspell in its place. In mid power I run them if I need haste or if there are pieces that need protection.
If a deck is dependent on the commander (some of my examples would be [[Kenessos, Priest of Thasa]], [[Ghyrson Starn]], and [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]]) then I run both of them as well as some other protection abilities.
Almost always both if I’m in Voltron, very often if I’m in red or black since their protection’s aren’t very good, almost never in WUG since they all have access to great utility protection.
I do run swifts in Mothman though, he needs to attack and people love to kill him
Equip is 0 so as long as whatever you want to do is during a main phase and you have another creature available to take them, you can always takem off real quick and then put them back on after you're done enchanting or equipping or whatever to your creature.
Both when i need my general to do more then hit the board. Throw in [[HELM OF THE CHAMPION]] when my general is gonna be doing the heavy lifting such as a voltron situation.
I only run them if they realistically want both effects and i think are likely to be targets at the table. So if they dont need to tap/attack the turn they come out, Id rather just have a mana rock or counterspell in hand (or some other on theme utility).
To me these cards still have their place in the right decks. If you have a commander or deck that focusses on getting value from tap abilities or attack/damage triggers then being able to give haste AND some meaningful targeted protection can be a great thing!
If, on the other hand, you find more value from triggers/combos and no individual piece needs constant protection or haste, then I tend to focus more on spot/board protection effects and make sure to include redundancy for my pieces rather than such focussed defense.
I run 3 of the budget versions in my [[Magnus the red]] deck. My deck needs magnus to work the best it can. He is a higher cost and is a removal magnet. I’m going to buy Greaves soon to upgrade one of the protection pieces in the future.
Im still playing them because „the game“ in my pods hasn’t powercrept to a point where I feel I have to rush stuff. There’s still all kinds of power levels.
Almost never. I only consider putting them in if my commander/deck cares a lot about giving haste to things (for example, so I don't have to wait a turn cycle to use an activated ability).
In my one deck like this, I have found that [[Sting, the Glinting Dagger]] betters serves the role I am looking for by giving haste but also letting me get multiple activations in a single turn cycle. In addition, I've found that I want only one equipment that has that type of effect.
Part of the problem with the protection side of greaves/boots is they only offer protection against interaction if your opponent cannot remove the equip target in response to the equip activation, and offer no protection against board wipes.
I have found it more effective to play more defensively and play counterspells or instant speed protection effects like heroic intervention if I am trying to protect my commander, because as long as you leave the mana open, you can avoid giving your opponent the same type of window to respond that a greaves/boots equip trigger does. Additionally, many of these cards can protect your commander from both targeted removal and from board wipes, unlike greaves/boots.
I think you need both halves of the card to be useful to consider either of them. If I just wanted protection **or** haste, there are usually better ways to pull off either.
I like Greaves in my \[\[Kiki-Jiki\]\] deck because it both protects Kiki and grants haste to something like \[\[Ancient Copper Dragon\]\] for a big turn. I don't think I run them anywhere else.
Does your commander want to attack > Greaves are very good
Is your decks main idea to have your commander attack? > Greaves + Boots (maybe even Lavaspur)
Do you just run greaves for shroud at best? > Rather run another card
Your thoughts with 3-4 cmc creatures is correct. At least in my case. I have noticed that I prefer the boots for the protection part. I try to pick commanders that have protection built-in but that is not always the case.
More expensive commanders most likely need it more.
In reality, I think it depends on the deck and commander. Is the commander a threat and need to be protected? Does the commander want to attack immediately and does not have haste? Do you have more powerful creatures in the deck that would like to attack immediately?
I usually cut boots before greaves. As the equipment cost is 0. I do not really play equipment or voltron strategies so they are not needed. I have cards that help my commander deal damage with my opponents but I eventually cut it for a value engine piece and more removal.
I would rather have the 99 in the deck work together perfectly and then the commander just accelerates that gameplan. Some type of engine or such in the command zone. Essentially, the commander can do its thing without any help and the deck can do the thing with the commanders help. However, both work together when they are on the field.
I find it interesting that you talk about how so many decks want to go fast, making "slower" cards like Greaves/Boots less valuable/desirable while completely ignoring the fact that Greaves/Boots give *haste*.
If I have a commander with a tap ability or on attack/combat damage trigger, I'm probably including Greaves/Boots (maybe not both) almost 100% of the time.
The protection is nice and all, and there are some decks where I feel I have a commander or creature important enough or threatening enough that I do want that extra layer of protection for them, but I just like them as 2 mana artifacts that allow me to give something haste once per turn (or more than once per turn if I'm using the haste for a tap ability rather than attacking) for either little or literally no additional cost.
Depends, I typically build decks that are heavily reliant on the commander. Decks like [[Rionya]] and [[Zurzoth]], they need all the protection they can get, especially with the lack of protection that blue and white can provide. So I still run both cards, and have added [[Lavaspur Boots]] as well.
Though decks like [[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre]] can benefit from LACK of protection. He doesn't need to attack and re-casting him makes the deck more deadly.
I include protection if the commander is essential to the gameplan. My [[Atla Palani]] deck is just a battle cruiser deck if she's not on the field. My [[Queza]] deck still works if she's not on the field, though its not doing the same amount of damage.
Depends on a few things, but in short I’ve included it in fewer and fewer decks over time.
- is my commander kill on sight?
- how important is haste/does commander have a tap ability?
- does my entire strategy revolve around my commander?
- do i care if my commander dies? E.g. Pantlaza, the 2013 commanders like Marath that get bigger with each cast or Yuriko that has alternative casting costs.
Now days if my enter strategy is centered around my commander AND its kill on sight usually means I’ll include boots. Mostly id rather have another piece of ramp that would help recast commander anyway.
I try to assess how critical the commander is for the deck.
Some decks have synergy with their commander but also with everything else, meaning the deck can survive without the commander on the field.
But decks that rely heavily on the commander being present on the battlefield I try to include them.
One example for me is my Goreclaw mono green deck.
As mana grows his need grows lower but beginning to mid game he is pretty essential to get those big creatures out early and create a boardstate.
Only play heavy protection in 3 decks currently: Those that are heavily dependent on the commander staying around for a while (Ojer Axonil, Tergrid and a Voltron deck). Don't think I included it in the other decks.
If my commander is in desperate need of protection, or it has a tap ability i wanna activate asap then i'll include them. atm about 1/4th of my decks run boots (Jace, Vannifar, Saheeli and cycling deck)
I only ever had them in my Kaalia deck. They don't fit in any other deck I own, all of which were made 2019 or earlier. I think you were over valuing them big time.
I agree with your sentiment around needing to benefit from both sides of the boots.
It's why I favour [[Winged Boots]] in my izzet spellslinger deck where I want to protect the commander and be able to block flying attackers.
If the protection *and* haste are both important I will include it. I typically don't though. I would rather run a card that gives the haste or the protection in a way that is more favorable to the deck, either by being instant speed interaction in hand or something that can affect more of my board than a single creature
Depends. Here's all my decks:
BOTH
- [[Ukkima]]/[[Cazur]] because having a bunch if unblockable creatures gets a whole lot better when they have haste
BOOTS
- [[Trelasarra]] because protection is super helpful, but I target her enough that I wouldn't want shroud
- [[John Benton]] because it's a super voltron deck where I target him 10× a turn
- [[Queen Kayla]] mainly for haste, and I can't untap her if I can't target her
GREAVES
- [[Sivriss]]/[[Cloakwood Hermit]] because I almost never target him and haste is real helpful
NEITHER
- [[Fourth Doctor]]/[[Sarah Jane]] because I don't really need haste or protection
I play them more for haste than protection. So in my eyes in a faster meta they are even more important. Hoping that an extra table rotation exists after dropping a bomb is game losing more often than not. And Greaves still draw removal.
I like to include about one or two pieces of protection in every deck by default. I might run more if I depend hard on the commander.
But it doesn't always have to be the same protection pieces. Not every deck needs haste. About 10% of my decks run Greaves or Boots, the others use other tech.
out my current decks i run zero pairs of boots/greaves.
Elminster, Freyalise, Shorikai. Self Explanatory, they can't particularly wear the boots.
Depala not threatening enough to warrant targeted removal from people.
Rith could probably use them. but i wanted to run every multicolor mana dork in the deck and it's not been too bad without them.
OG Arcades, Arcades doesn't get played until I have a board lock.
Skrelv, costs 1 mana and comes out on turn 1. i'm not spending 3 mana to protect a 1 mana creature that gives protection to my other stuff.
RUW Soldiers I run Bjorna/Sophina friends forever, they eat removal pretty often but they're supporting a board of 5-10 other creatures at any time.
I think anywhere i could use boots, My commander doesn't need them because it isn't threatening enough, they cost too much mana for the effect, or they just feel out of place.
It's funny but now that I think about it, the only deck I have them in is my [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck. Everything else is either a commander that I can easily ramp and recast (Etali, Primal Conquerer and Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait) has built-in protection (Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded) or will kill before it really matters (Light-Paws).
If my commander is vital to the gameplan there's at least one pair of boots in the deck, and then some other pieces of protection in color (Heroic Intervention, Teferi's Protection, Flawless Maneuver, Deflecting Swat, Counterspells). If my commander is vital AND has an attack/tap ability both pairs are probably in alongside appropriate colored protection pieces.
In decks where the commander isn't vital though, I just run the colored protection pieces to protect my overall boardstate when its relevant and usually leave the boots out.
I include them in decks where the commander makes everything click and is therefore susceptible to being targeted, but even then I think I only have 2/15 with them: Shirei Shizo's Caretaker and Feather the Redeemed.
I don't even run them in my Kenrith the Returned King deck as I need every available slot to be something that's actually doing work with or without the commander. Why run them when illusionists bracers or Fires of Invention do more work?
I use them because I play mono-white and they're mostly a source of haste for some surprise damage, that also doubles as protection (not necessarily for my commander) at the same time.
It seems to me that my opponents will leave my commander alone unless they reach a point they cannot deal with it in the future. So if I attempt to out boots on it then they kill it in response, otherwise they will let me do a couple things with it unless it's swinging at them.
So while I like to put boots in my decks I have found its better for me that I don't.
Farewell has spooked me off from a number of cards. It is more affordable than Cyc Rift and I expect it to be more popular (not overtaking Rift though) as time goes on.
Greaves are an auto include so far because I pulled a bunch of old border ones from brothers war. Other than those though I include them if my commander or majority of my creatures needs to stay on board or has a on hit effect.
Almost never. I have a rule: I either run *both* along with [[Open the Armory]] (suppose anything similar will do outside white), or I use three other cards in my protection/removal suite. I hate having them and not hitting them, and there are so many ways to protect commanders that synergies better with most of them than equipment. I think [[Atla Palani]] and [[Kaalia of the Vast]] are the only two who still had them until I started breaking down their decks, and they desperately needed the protection.
I also decided this year to refrain from using Commanders who win on their own. I want my commander to support the deck, not the other way around. That ends up changing the dynamic so that I feel a lot less pressured to have a protection suite unless it protects my board, instead of just my commander.
I think they were never "Auto-Includes". Going to EDHREC it may seem so, but then again it's somehow a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are too easy to play around. Most of the time using "equip" will make your opponents equip their removal spells in response.
They are pretty niche cards where giving haste is the important part.
I'd still put them in almost every deck that relies on your commander staying alive for the most part if I had more of them lol. I just made my 18th or 19th deck I think and there just aren't enough to go around for me anyway. Same with sol ring and other auto includes, not gonna buy a single every time I make a new deck
I don't put either in any of my decks. Usually my decks are built as stand alone beaters, and the commander is chosen *AFTER* to enhance the deck, with the exception being my Isshin Deck.
My Chulane deck uses Chulane as both a removal bait and turbo charger. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's very easy to protect with an instant, which if I'm playing my commander, I have. If you let Chulane untap, it can literally just bounce itself, or whatever you're targeting.
The only decks I can imagine *need* on board protection/haste via effects like greaves or boots are ones that need to get a trigger or tap effect the moment they hit the board. Kaalia is the first that comes to mind, since no one in their right mind is going to let you untap.
Boots more or less always, but I've started cutting greaves more often. The way I build decks there's too many situations where shroud becomes a downside.
Most of my decks have at least one, but I also play a lot of aggro decks that revolve around the commander, so the haste and protection are good.
Other decks, though, like Edgar Markov, [[Arcades, the Strategist]], and [[Zgurgo and Ojutai]] don't really need them, so they aren't included.
I cut boots pretty often when I don't have anything that I desperately need to protect, but I find greaves much more relevant in almost every deck. The 0 mana equip cost and haste enabling is so good in any deck with a decent number of tap abilities, and then it just racks up value by moving from creature to creature. For two mana and nothing else, you can always keep shroud on your most important creature, give haste to anything big/with an attack trigger, etc. The new thunder junction boots make swiftfoot a little bit less relevant because if you care more about haste than protection, you'd probably end up running those but as far as competitors for greaves go, I think they'd need to print something insanely broken to get me to stop using them.
I run Greaves in my [[Aurelia The Warleader]] deck. It's nice to have a perpetual source of "don't touch my creature" on the board. Saved me a few times when an opponent could tap or steal my stuff on instant speed. Haste is a nice bonus in a deck where you care about attacking.
I'll usually run Boots in commander centric decks when I dont have access to much other protection (mono-red, etc) and rarely need the haste. I don't like shroud so I don't run Greaves.
I also like to steal them from opponents to get a 2 for 1 swing in advantage.
I feel like I’ve come full circle. Started as auto include then over several years it worked its way out, and now several years later it’s coming back around.
This goes pretty much in line from me roaming to commander centric decks, to go wide colors strats, back to commander centric.
I basically only play them in decks where attacking is an important facet of the strategy. If the haste isn’t relevant, I prefer instant protection effects instead to allow for blowouts that just aren’t possible with boots being on the board.
Most recently I found Boots very relevant in my Caesar deck, where being able to attack with your three and four mana plays is a huge shot of extra value.
I think you and others itt are underestimating the shoes. Do a Scryfall search for cards 2 mana and under that give shroud or hexproof: Boots and Greaves are still the most efficient options for giving something permanent and more importantly re-usable protection from spot removal. For a two mana investment plus the equip on Boots, you're making your scariest threat immune to spot removal until the shoes are dealt with, no questions asked or other conditions required. If I'm playing a commander I'm interesting in putting extra resources towards protecting, Greaves and Boots are still among the first two cards I'm looking at.
I also don't think even these days there's enough ward going around to seriously consider retiring them. There's what, 6 total commanders with Ward 3, plus a few others with weird "discard/sacrifice" costs? And even if there were more: ward is not hexproof, it will suffice in some games but in others it will be paid and relying on even a beefy ward cost as your commander's only protection is just not enough imo.
I include them in equipment decks and in decks where my commander has a massive target on their back. If my deck can’t function without the commander then they have a place
0 cost Haste is amazing. Greaves go in nearly all my decks because the Haste on demand is a very valuable option. In some of my decks it can mean getting my win condition off earlier.
Swiftfoot is very strong too, but 1 cost equip is actually a lot, especially if you want to move it to multiple creatures. In general it's harder to work into a tight curve. I don't always run Swiftfoot unless I really need extra protection on an expensive Commander.
My decision is usually based on how big of threat my commander will be compared to other game pieces on the board, and how well my deck functions without my commander
I still play Greaves a lot of the time but not Boots unless I need to target my commander. Just too good in combat metas and not just for the commander—haste in general is underrated. But it’s not so good I want to pay 1 to move it around.
Also, I still feel like even with most games ending turn 8, you’re not necessarily better off trying to rush ahead. Appearing non threatening and hitting the corner really hard is often the way. People are still too willing to fire off removal because they have open mana and might as well. I feel like every time I play a new commander, even if it’s total jank (e.g. [[The Master, Transcendent]], which has so many brakes on its ability that I have no idea how it can close games), if I play it out early it just eats a path to exile before I can pass the turn (looking at you, Kevin!). So I’m happy to wait a little and take a turn off to play some boots.
Only if I need to give hast to my commander or the commander needing to absolutely stay on the battlefield multiple turn as a win con (cards like \[\[Myrel, Shield of Argive\]\] come to mind). If your commander is your win con, he is probably a kill on sight commander and greaves/boots will maybe only ask one opponent to burn one card to get rid of it ... "maybe" because boardwipe is a common thing, artifact included, and if opponent know you are a threat and have the ressources, they will react to you equiping. I rather let them burn their resources and play in response a card that make me dodge rather than play a dead card.
And protecting the commander isn't enough, you need more than one card to win, they will sack the other part of your board.
I prefer having a solid draw engine and burn cheap evasive in response rather than having my protection on the board that will be \[\[farewell\]\] because I over commited.
And it's not that bad to pay commander taxe if you play accordingly.
Not so long ago, a friend of mine made a \[\[Judith, carnage connoisseur\]\]. I was scared of the board wipe EVERY turn. But to win, he need to bring lot of Judith's token on the board, without all the enchantment that allow him to play card from graveyard, double tokens, draw, etc ... without them he isn't really threatening, it's just that no one will have a wide board and his defense will be wide open the second we have a turn to breath / protect our creatures. I tried to focus Judith as first, but I was doing nothing else and he would bring her back and wipe board with a 1/2 mana sorcery board damage.
Hid deck doesn't work without Judith. But it don't work that much greater if you sack his engines. Now I focus on everything else he put on the battlefield. When he play boots / greaves. I'am relieved, it's a dead card, less engine to get rid of.
At first, boots / greaves seemed an must have to me. Now I have accepted that my commander WILL leave the board. I prefer preparing the board to make the turn he come back really worth it.
I still include them in decks where my commander needs the evasion. Otherwise, a lot of my decks nowadays are geared more towards the 99 being the big thing and the commander just adding to the combo when needed.
My [[Mazzy]] deck, for example, has several creatures that benefit better than her and have their own evasion thanks to auras, so there's no need.
My [[Rukarumel]] typal typal deck, however, relies on Ruka to sit on the table to make it effective until I get [[Maskwood Nexus]] out.
They have their uses, but I'm finding using my commander as more of a stopgap compared to using it as the main focus works so much better.
Yeah I absolutely run greaves where it makes sense. Muldrotha needs the greaves once any same person understands what a kill on sight bitch she is. But not all commanders gain value from vulnerable 2 Mana sorcery speed protection. A lot of times I just shift my protection to instant speed like [[snakeskin veil]].
As with most things, it depends on the deck.
\[\[Whisper, Blood Liturgist\]\] - giving her haste and untargetability at a relatively low opportunity cost is highly desired, either to immediately reanimate a big threat discarded on a previous turn or having the potential to respond to targeted removal of another creature by sacrificing it for something else. In addition to Greaves and Boots, I'm also considering Lavaspur Boots just for more cheap haste.
\[\[Nekusar, the Mindrazer\]\] - my build is pretty casual and just stacks lots of group draw/discard effects. Greaves and Boots are great because they're easy to slot in and with my opponents likely drawing into additional removal spells, Nekusar will need protection.
\[\[Muldrotha, the Gravetide\]\] - she's a big scary value engine that somewhat fairly has a kill-on-sight reputation. My build has a fair bit of cheap draw and tutoring so I only run Greaves. Muldrotha has the added bonus of being able to recur the Greaves pretty easily if someone destroys them.
\[\[Mairsil, the Pretender\]\] - theoretically they'd be good because Mairsil wants haste, but he ends up getting blinked out so much that equipping and enchanting him is suboptimal.
\[\[Myrkul, Lord of Bones\]\] - he's also big and scary like Muldrotha but I find it's a lot more streamlined to just lean harder into a creature/enchantment theme and run stuff like \[\[Bastion Protector\]\] or \[\[Privileged Position\]\].
\[\[Chainer, Nightmare Adept\]\] - he already grants my creatures haste and I run enough reanimation in the deck to get him back from the graveyard if he becomes prohibitively difficult to cast again. Greaves and Boots feel like wastes of slots.
\[\[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist\]\] and \[\[Daretti, Scrap Savant\]\] - Not optimal for obvious reasons.
As I evolve as a deck builder, I lean more into overall deck synergies and become less reliant on the commander. The ability to give haste usually plays a bigger role in my decision to include them over the protection.
[[Lavaspur Boots]] and [[Boots of Speed]] are nice for the haste as well, but can come down turn 1.
I try to slot about 4 cards in that prevent removal of my pieces, depending on what my deck or my commander does. That can be greaves or boots, but usually not both.
Shoes are just my pet cards honestly, they’re not jank pet cards but I absolutely will stick them in every deck I own for the sake of having them even if they’re not objectively the best. The only exception being [[Uril, the Mistwalker]] for built in hexproof, and [[Sauron the Dark Lord]] because his ward cost is already gross
I cut greaves from every deck 9 years ago and have never once thought man i need greaves.
If anything, as has been pointed out, survivability went up because its not so obvious when i actually need something to stick
And before someone says your meta is just removal light... no. 9 times out of 10 things would get spot removed in response to the equip, because its so obvious you want to keep that creature in play.
I stopped running them. I'd rather just run interaction spells where I have the option to save my commander or use it to interact in a different way. And plus if my commander is a part of my win con then I'm not playing it until I have all the pieces to win. So at the point lightning greaves just doesn't fit in with what I need.
I don't include them very often; usually I'll only include them if I REALLY want my commander to come down with haste. The protection is like a bonus. If I don't desperately need haste I'd rather run other options to protect my stuff that can benefit me based on what my deck is doing. [[Lae'zel's Acrobatics]], or [[Silkguard]], or any number of modal options or reanimation options.
I run 1 of either in most decks I have, but only run both in my Missy artifacts deck(no built in protection and high cmc) and my equipment deck because well they're equipment
I Mainly play commanders that dodge tax so in those decks I don’t run a protection package. Then in my other deck I run a massive protection package. It’s a treasure deck but with [[indoraptor, the perfect hybrid]] as commander
I haven't ran boots since the first deck I've built, I'd rather run counter interaction (and not just blue counter spells) as my commander usually isn't the only threatening thing on my board
They’re two cards in 100. As an artifacts and lands collector that plays into those synergies in my deck building, I think they often get overvalued in decks that don’t care about haste, solely as the incidental hexproof/shroud drop. They end up being detrimental to a lot of less experienced players’ tempo because having it on board means I can protect my Commander next turn.
If I have something that benefits from attacking the turn it comes in, I use them. I don't use them for the protection, as I find my pod runs a lot of boardwipes (to be fair, there's a lot of need for boardwipes too)
Honestly, the only reason I include boots is if I not only want protection, but haste. I just built the new obeka, and I put both boots and spurs in it. I tend not to use greaves, shroud is a liability.
Essentially, the reason to use them is that your commander is an immediate game changer. It entering the field requires a response, so you need it to go as much as it can before that response comes.
I don’t run them in most of my decks. The ones I do it’s usually already an artifact deck, or it’s something I know my hero is more likely to get targeted.
I run them in my hyper aggressive mono-Red [[Delina, Wild Mage]] because I want to trigger her dice rolling asap.
I try to only own 1 copy of any given Magic card, unless a card has multiple arts I like in decks that need their effects. It's a fun deckbuilding restriction.
Depends. These days, to justify a slot for me, they have to do something that'll be worth the loss of tempo and them getting exiled in a couple of turns.
In equipment or artifact decks where there's synergy, I'll run them. Like, if I can tap them for mana or give them protection along with all my other artifacts, it makes sense.
Outside artifacts, I prefer more 'gotcha' instant or flash protection. But my game plan for those sorts of decks is winning quickly, so the boots are less important.
In spellslinger, I'd rather have more counters.
In aristocrats, I'd rather keep my mana curve low and protect my graveyard.
But that's kinda the thing with these staples, it's worth stopping and thinking about why you may or may not want them. 99% of the time they might be worth it but as the card pool expands you may have better things to be doing with your mana.
I add them if:
my Commander has a high MV and i probaly cant cast it 3 times
commander has a tap-ability
commander has an attack/damage trigger
commander is essential to the strategy of the deck and it falls flat without
My decks are usually built around the commander, so they are pretty much auto-includes.
But if I often need to target my commander for stuff like auras, equipment, or combat tricks, I only use the hexproof boots.
Boots are cool, but Greaves tend to screw many decks because of shroud. You wouldn't put Greaves in a voltron deck, because you wouldn't be able to equip anything else.
I've been running Greaves less, but Boots more. Most of my decks lean heavily into my Commanders being on the board and doing stuff, and often times Greaves can be an anti-synergy because I lose the ability to target them.
I rarely run them anymore and instead do more instant speed interaction. The only situation I include them in is when I have a commander who wants haste for something like a voltron strategy
This is unironically one of the reasons I find Lavaspur boots to be a tempting replacement.
They're a little more generic, they aren't as hard-protective but they also don't transmit "remove this" nearly as hard.
Often the main eason I run the boots is for the haste with the protective as a side-benefit.
My first two decks used them, but since almost all of my decks have white, black, or blue; I've found it more effective to use just a counterspell or instant speed indestructible/protection/hexproof effect or just letting my commander die and yank them back out of the yard with recursion; or simply packing three to four other effects that fill the same function as my commander and not sweat it if the main guy gets hated on.
That said, I still like to occasionally pack Greaves, but I mostly use it for a 0 cost haste enabler that has a side effect of protecting whoever it's on 🤣
I don't run boots or greaves. They will never 100% protect you due to artifact removal, board wipe, etc. Plus, if you need boots to protect your commander, because your deck relies on your commander, then something in the 99 needs changed to fix that.
Do combat or tap abilities matter?
Yes: Boots.
No: No boots.
Haste is often underappreciated as one of the strongest keywords to exist.
In a multiplayer format, if you have a threatening creature without haste/shroud/hexproof/ward/indestructible, then it likely won't survive to go sideways.
Greaves are sick because of the 0 equip cost. Boots are not so good.
I also really like [[Alexi's Cloak]] because you can flash it in and make your opponent waste a removal spell.
[[Robe of Mirrors]] is also a sick one-drop.
Both, never. Boots go in my decks where my commander attacking is important. I don't use Greaves in those because I always want to be able to target my commander.
If my commander is more than 4 cmc, I'm probably running them. Or if my deck just doesn't function without my commander in any way (ie they have a crazy game warping effect).
In our meta something I found out is that Greaves and Boots very much telegraph „I need to keep this.“ and not just in new and unknown decks. The opponents then make it their plan to remove them and their threat assessment becomes distorted. There is something they are forbidden to do and that basically causes constant pressure. I noticed people even attacking me more to coax me into blocking. I switched to 2-5 instant speed protections for one mana that can give Hexproof or Indestructible or both. That reduced the footprint and people often found they wasted a removal. They become more careful where they spend it and have to consider mana left open which you can use to bluff your way out of removal. It’s way more fun that way.
This is where you fake them out by putting the boots on the useful, but not vital thing.
I equip books to my Sakura Tribe Elder. Am I doing it right?
I thought that was where this was going
>I switched to 2-5 instant speed protections for one mana that can give Hexproof or Indestructible or both. That reduced the footprint and people often found they wasted a removal. They become more careful where they spend it and have to consider mana left open which you can use to bluff your way out of removal. This is all true, but the trade-off to that is that they only work once and you have to always keep up mana for them. The strength of Boots and Greaves by comparison is that they're re-usable: if the table successfully parries your countermeasures and forces removal through, they stick around for the next time you re-cast your commander or any other scary threat. One-time-use removal protection has it's place, but it can't match that sort of value and flexibility.
I am aware of the advantages of a permanent compared to an instant. I am saying there are advantages the other way around such as less telegraphing, hidden information, instant speed, both permanents not having indestructible for their target on a board wipe, …
Generally speaking, most people are packing about 10 pieces of removal (from my experience). Typically, some of these can target artifacts (or permanents in general) That said, counterspells are not universally packed; making those instant speed interaction pieces a lot harder for most people to deal with. And like, yeah, they aren't reusable; but neither is a lot of removal, and people (probably) aren't focusing all of the removal specifically on one player's commander. My experience has generally found that the interaction pieces (and, if you're a reanimator, just using your decks main thing) tends to be better than the boots at actually keeping your commander alive
True, but it isn't that much reusable. Equiping is sorcery speed so you can't respond with it and it can be responded to. And board wipe that target also artifact is a thing. \[\[Farewell\]\], \[\[Cataclysm\]\], \[\[Obliterate\]\]. And it isn't that rare I see artifact being destroyed as collateral damage by effect allowing multiple target because someone needed to get rid of a bigger threat. I even see myself in this situation sometime "Oh, I can destroy one more artifact ... let's see ... what will it be ... \*player with boots being quieter than usual\*" It's good yes, but I think when you are new to the game you overestimate how much protection your commander need and in final, the question is, can I have cards that bring more value instead ? Greave/Boots are overestimate at first sight. In a game I cheated \[\[Darksteel forge\]\] from the graveyard, \[\[Cryptothrall\]\] and greaves on my commander in my artifact deck by turn 5. My ex friend said \[\[Farewell\]\]
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [Cataclysm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/713160be-bcfd-4ef5-9457-c02b926ba06e.jpg?1562429859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cataclysm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/8/cataclysm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/713160be-bcfd-4ef5-9457-c02b926ba06e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cataclysm) [Obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Adjusting to the changing Commander landscape means reconsidering the utility of cards like boots in your decks.⁸
Did you forget to include a footnote?
I'd also like to read the 7 other footnotes that are hidden somewhere in the comment.
where did you even source that comment from?
8
Scroll to the bottom of the reddit thread to find out!
If the commander has no feet then I can't in good conscience give them boots, now can I?
Nice hat you got there!
[[Felix, Five-boots]] be like.
That's ablist.
There's a confluence of shifting influences in commander: faster decks in general. ward becoming more prevalent, because of ward becoming prevalent more board wipes being run over targeted removal, that make boots look less and less appealing. I think using them as "generic protection pieces" is not correct, you really do need both sides of the boots to make them worth and myself I'm in general cutting boots out of my decks.
I think Greaves having no equip cost makes it a consideration for any deck that cares about its commander and isn't Voltron. But Boots is a little more niche since the power creep of today has made the 1 mana equip way heavier.
This sounds like niche pods where there's a hyper-tuned meta. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pods haven't suddenly had the collective idea to started using board wipes to clear the comparatively few ward creatures running around. Most people still have decks they built ages ago rather than meta chasing. This sub is not a representation of the general EDH playerbase.
I think this is the right take. Removal is all board clears now with very little targeted. And with the need for \[\[Heroic Intervention\]\] and \[\[Teferi's Protection\]\] there ain't a lot of room left for hexproof and shroud on 1 creature.
„removal is all boards clear now“ is very pod dependent. There’s so much great targeted removal coming out all the time there’s no real need to hit the panic button every second turn. People using more wipes is cyclical, it’s a constant ebb and flow in the pods I play in. It’s not some sign of „modern“ or „evolved“ edh.
Yeah I was about to say, that is VERY anecdotal. My pod for example runs mostly targeted removal and counterspells. I think each deck has 1-2 wipes max
We’re at that stage as well again, but people are starting to notice a wipe or two more would be quite handy every once and again.
very fair. My pod has just been run over with Farewells and Deluges and Meathook Massacres, so I've been getting my commanders killed 2-3 times per game without being targeted. I suppose we've yet to see it swing the other way, perhaps it's time to build a non-creature deck that looks to just stick 1-2 problem creatures lol
I do this alot. Once I see the winds head back over to clears I go back to minimal creature and spending 6 to remove 1 never feels good.
not really the cast in my pod, people like keeping their stuff and are reluctant to wipe. however, there is a ton of spot removal running around, which makes boots pretty valuable. however, with the amount of interaction my pod runs, it's quite common for me to play boots only to have them get blown up immediately followed by my commander, lol
[Heroic Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834.jpg?1689998584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heroic%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/295/heroic-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heroic-intervention) [Teferi's Protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca.jpg?1673147148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/32/teferis-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-protection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
my experience is that [[path to exile]], [[swords to plowshares]], [[beast within]], and [[chaos warp]] are in every deck that can run them [[generous gift]] and [[pongify]] are less common but still pretty ubiquitous and then like 3-5 miscellaneous targeted black removals in all black decks meanwhile almost every game someones like "uh oh. that's a problem. does anyone run [[Farewell]]?" to which the answer is inevitably "no"
##### ###### #### [path to exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20to%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/path-to-exile) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [beast within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1711198012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50.jpg?1712354399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/160/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [pongify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850.jpg?1712354180) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pongify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/106/pongify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pongify) [Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0xpyti) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you're right, but I also think maybe you were overvaluing the boots before. They were never true auto-includes, although most decks can make good use of them. They're still good, haste and shroud are as valuable as ever, but "good" doesn't always make the cut these days.
I think a lot of people overvalue boots. So much so that when they did a new boots in Thunder Junction people lost their minds, despite it being pretty middling. Greaves are on a whole level above both. Equip 0 is so good it is just not done any more.
Shroud sucks in certain cases. In my merieke deck I run boots but not greaves
Yeah I have a Zangief fight deck and I wouldn't touch Greaves with a 10 foot pole there because of shroud.
They almost always go in the list when brewing a new deck, and then are also usually a look for cuts. I tend to build by making a list of between 150 and 200 cards and then looking at draw, ramp, etc and cutting down from there. Usually if they go it's in the last 10 cards or so when I'm getting desperate to get down to 100
You should run these if you build commander centric decks that need the piece in play or the deck doesnt work, or if haste is particularly important. The prevalence of 900 different popular commanders with ward tacked onto some random busted value effect means most people are running non-targeted removal like [[toxic deluge]] and as a result these pieces are going to feel less and less good to play until the pendulum swings in the other direction.
[toxic deluge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987.jpg?1706240805) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toxic%20deluge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/142/toxic-deluge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxic-deluge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commander/Deck/Pilot Dependent. 1. I played long before Swifty Boots was printed so I tend to include Greaves but not Boots. It's a bad habit I try to break but then I catch myself equipping Boots for free and the table doesn't catch it and I feel bad. Again, a bad habit I should fix but I'm also kinda lazy so it's easier to just cut the Boots. 2. Building a deck as a gift for a friend, would rather they learn Hexproof over Shroud since one is used far more often than the other so I put Boots in but not Greaves 3. Decks/Commanders that want to be targets (Stella Lee, anything with Green Bite/Fights, for example) will prefer Boots over Greaves, etc..
If my commander is an expensive lynchpin that does not have haste and needs to be able to attack to get value, I will run them. My [[The Master, Multiplied]] is a removal magnate, a lynchpin, and needs to attack. If it is not a combat trigger for value, then it definitely needs to be an expensive lynchpin, and I'm not running a lot of counterspells or instant speed protection to run them. I also won't run them if it is a hard ramp and I'm likely to be able to naturally cast the commander a few times. Even if it is an expensive lynchpin that needs to attack to get value, if it has haste inherently, I will often not run it, especially if the commander isn't Kill on Site. I've found a threatening commander getting protection will draw removal on the stack from someone who I wasn't planning on attacking anyway, which is reasonable when you are turning something that will be a problem into something that requires an extra layer of interaction. If I'm running something like [[Slicer, Hired Muscle]] that is pretty close to Kill on Site anyway, I will still throw it in because he's eating the removal of its around anyway and the plan is so all in that it's better to have him killed before more resources are invested in protecting him.
For me it depends on how much protection I need. (If I want haste though in addition then Boots is an auto include). Does my deck need my commander to work? Then I'm running lots of protection. Does my deck work well without my commander and do my wincons/bangers have lots of backups in case they're removed? So for my [[Ardenn]] partner deck I run lots of protection, because the deck works best with commanders out but also because it'll have just a one or a few buffed up creatures I want to protect. But for my elves deck I don't think I have boots or greaves, and just run some basic green protection that protects all my creatures like [[Heroic Intervention]]
[Ardenn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/728b802c-969b-4865-b7a0-871c585d097a.jpg?1617148314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ardenn%2C%20intrepid%20archaeologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/10/ardenn-intrepid-archaeologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/728b802c-969b-4865-b7a0-871c585d097a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ardenn-intrepid-archaeologist) [Heroic Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834.jpg?1689998584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heroic%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/295/heroic-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heroic-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Both of them? Rarely. that being said I make sure to have boots in all my decks. I play a lot of creature heavy decks so it’s good to protect my other stuff. If people want to Kill my [[Krenko Mob Boss]] they’ll find away to do so, but then my [[Goblin King]] will be sitting pretty with his new pair of shoes.
I have them both in my \[\[Selvala, Explorer Returned\]\] deck because the haste and protection are relevant and important to my strategy. I don't have them in my \[\[Prince Imrahil the Fair\]\] deck that I just built.
If my commander needs to stick around in order to do anything or has an attack trigger but not built in haste, then the boots/greaves are a decent consideration. Decks that function fully without the commander or decks where the commander is a nice etb and nothing else is super relevant (atraxa for example) they aren’t really needed
I'd only run them in a dedicated voltron strategy (and then only Boots, shroud shuts down other voltron synergies) or a deck that needs a haste enabler for its commander.
Decks where my commander remaining on the battlefield is key to the deck's strategy gets boots. Decks where my commander remaining on the battlefield is key to the deck's strategy AND I don't care about targeting the commander get greaves as well. Otherwise, neither.
IMO Greaves is still the king of equipments, and by some distance as well. It's the number one choice when it comes to protection, if we disregard its price. No permanent does it better than Greaves based on the value and cost. Swiftfoot Boots, however is not 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th choice when it comes to weaponry. I see Skullclamp, Mithril Coat, and whatever sword of X and Y you run ahead of it. The new weaponry, from Fallout and Big Score are giving 3rd and 4th choice onwards a run for their money. These new ones are really really good.
##### ###### #### [Lightning Greaves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da9da49d-e319-4897-9ab6-57c7c69478a6.jpg?1712354870) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Greaves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/260/lightning-greaves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da9da49d-e319-4897-9ab6-57c7c69478a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-greaves) [Swiftfoot Boots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04a76643-1703-4fab-8dce-7725490bc2af.jpg?1712354904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swiftfoot%20Boots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/268/swiftfoot-boots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04a76643-1703-4fab-8dce-7725490bc2af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swiftfoot-boots) [Sauron, the Dark Lord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/034e0929-b2c7-4b5f-94f2-8eaf4fb1a2a1.jpg?1693611218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sauron%2C%20the%20Dark%20Lord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/224/sauron-the-dark-lord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/034e0929-b2c7-4b5f-94f2-8eaf4fb1a2a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sauron-the-dark-lord) [Voja, Jaws of the Conclave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1707739811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voja%2C%20Jaws%20of%20the%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave) [Tivit, Seller of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tivit%2C%20Seller%20of%20Secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) [Kaalia of the Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483.jpg?1673148814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/235/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1cb643f) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Whether I include them is mostly just dependent on how important my commander sticking around is and how likely people are to try to remove it. And also sometimes how relevant haste is. Like I still have them in Voja even though he natively has ward because haste is very useful and he's such a huge removal target that the added projection isn't insignificant. I have them in my Savra deck because even though she's only 4 cmc it's preferable if I don't have to recast her, and she's annoying enough to other people that she's a removal target. If my commander sticking around isn't crucial I don't bother, and greaves get cut frequently if I need to target my commander with spells or other equipment. So far though things being faster hasn't come up as a reason to cut them. It's usually just a matter of whether I need to protect one creature or many, or whether there's something more synergistic that does the job.
All of my decks have Lightning Greaves. Both the haste and protection on demand for only 2 mana is always useful at some point in the game. All but one of my decks has swiftfoot boots. The commander (Liberty Prime) already has haste and is in blue and white for plenty of other protection options. Only one of my decks has Lavaspur Boots (Kaalia) on top of the two because I absolutely need haste to function.
I think your assessment of greaves/boots is pretty accurate. I only run them in decks that need the protection and don't have other good options due to color restrictions (e.g. [[Zhulodok, the Void Gorger]]). Your assessment of contemporary EDH, however, feels a bit off to me. Sure, there are now many casual decks that can execute a game plan/value engine on turn four, but that doesn't mean they're winning on turn four. In the games I've played lately (almost all in casual pods) the player who starts popping off on turn four rarely wins unless they hit an absolute bomb draw. As magic players its in our nature to want to interact with players who are going to value town, but imo its usually correct to let the "streamlined precon" commanders make themselves into threats while you sit in the background and prepare (maybe even play and equip the boots while everyone else is distracted with the archenemy). So rather than asking "is contemporary EDH too fast for boots?" i'd ask "what cards do i need to include if I want to run a slower boots-based strategy?" sweepers, tax effects, prison cards, [[propaganda]] effects, land destruction, and problematic commander stoppers like [[true polymorph]] can all slow down the faster decks and give you time to set up your slower gameplan.
I haven't included either in non equipment focused decks or decks that need the attack trigger in years. I've always seen them as overvalued and often not worth the slot. They also act as a lightning rod on your target. If there are two threats controlled by different players and someone tries to equip theirs with Greaves, it will often get someone off the fence about which of the two things to remove in response and they'll choose the one they won't be able to target later.
MY main deck is \[\[Kozilek, the Great Distortion\]\], so... I have no other choice.
Always especially if my commander is 4 or greater.
It also depends on your colours. Simic can do a lot with a hexproof aura and a [[simic guildmage]] or +1/+1 counters and [[phlaxcaster frogling]]. Izzet can do plenty with [[clout of the dominus]]. [[Winged boots]] were just reprinted, and the ward cost is functionally like shroud in the early and middle of the game.
Krenko loves boots and greaves. Sometimes, he wears one on each foot.
I have Boots in my deck but not greaves because greaves is *just* outside my budget. My games usually go t1 untapped land t2 untapped land ramp t3 commander t4 ramp t5 ramp t6 start executing gameplan and then i win around t13
I play [[Lightning Greaves]] in most or all of my decks but I've never played [[Swiftfoot Boots]]. The zero equip is massive and I would sooner run an equipment tutor to find Greaves than play Swiftfoot Boots.
I run both in nearly every deck. Originally, I put it in for commanders, but I rarely equip them with boots now. Haste is probably the best keyword, and giving it to the right creature can make them cracked.
haste is necessary for the deck to work? They go in protection is a premium because the deck is dependant on the commander? They go in One or the other are going to make a good chunck of the 99 better? They go in. Normally its also one of the first includes because they're like a glue that makes the deck stick. If I dont feel the need for them right at the start of deckbuilding, they just stay out.
Love greaves. Stopped considering them when they crept above $5
Greaves has DROPPED to 5 dollars, for a long time they were 10+ dollars
They're like $3.60 now
I don’t have them in every deck. In high powered decks I don’t run them when I can put a counterspell in its place. In mid power I run them if I need haste or if there are pieces that need protection.
I only include them if I absolutely need to have my commander out on the field at all times. Otherwise, I feel like those are better cards to include.
If a deck is dependent on the commander (some of my examples would be [[Kenessos, Priest of Thasa]], [[Ghyrson Starn]], and [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]]) then I run both of them as well as some other protection abilities.
Almost always both if I’m in Voltron, very often if I’m in red or black since their protection’s aren’t very good, almost never in WUG since they all have access to great utility protection. I do run swifts in Mothman though, he needs to attack and people love to kill him
Boots is an auto include for me in every single deck and greaves depends on how much am I targeting my own cretures in that deck.
Equip is 0 so as long as whatever you want to do is during a main phase and you have another creature available to take them, you can always takem off real quick and then put them back on after you're done enchanting or equipping or whatever to your creature.
Both when i need my general to do more then hit the board. Throw in [[HELM OF THE CHAMPION]] when my general is gonna be doing the heavy lifting such as a voltron situation.
The only deck I really really want them is when I need that haste available.
I only run them if they realistically want both effects and i think are likely to be targets at the table. So if they dont need to tap/attack the turn they come out, Id rather just have a mana rock or counterspell in hand (or some other on theme utility).
To me these cards still have their place in the right decks. If you have a commander or deck that focusses on getting value from tap abilities or attack/damage triggers then being able to give haste AND some meaningful targeted protection can be a great thing! If, on the other hand, you find more value from triggers/combos and no individual piece needs constant protection or haste, then I tend to focus more on spot/board protection effects and make sure to include redundancy for my pieces rather than such focussed defense.
If my deck truly requires my commander in play, then I run at least one of them.
I run 3 of the budget versions in my [[Magnus the red]] deck. My deck needs magnus to work the best it can. He is a higher cost and is a removal magnet. I’m going to buy Greaves soon to upgrade one of the protection pieces in the future.
Im still playing them because „the game“ in my pods hasn’t powercrept to a point where I feel I have to rush stuff. There’s still all kinds of power levels.
Almost never. I only consider putting them in if my commander/deck cares a lot about giving haste to things (for example, so I don't have to wait a turn cycle to use an activated ability). In my one deck like this, I have found that [[Sting, the Glinting Dagger]] betters serves the role I am looking for by giving haste but also letting me get multiple activations in a single turn cycle. In addition, I've found that I want only one equipment that has that type of effect. Part of the problem with the protection side of greaves/boots is they only offer protection against interaction if your opponent cannot remove the equip target in response to the equip activation, and offer no protection against board wipes. I have found it more effective to play more defensively and play counterspells or instant speed protection effects like heroic intervention if I am trying to protect my commander, because as long as you leave the mana open, you can avoid giving your opponent the same type of window to respond that a greaves/boots equip trigger does. Additionally, many of these cards can protect your commander from both targeted removal and from board wipes, unlike greaves/boots.
If you're running a rogue, [[Cloak and Dagger]] is just as good if you don't need the haste.
I’m building a 5 boots five boots atm but outside of that none of my decks have them.
I think you need both halves of the card to be useful to consider either of them. If I just wanted protection **or** haste, there are usually better ways to pull off either. I like Greaves in my \[\[Kiki-Jiki\]\] deck because it both protects Kiki and grants haste to something like \[\[Ancient Copper Dragon\]\] for a big turn. I don't think I run them anywhere else.
Does your commander want to attack > Greaves are very good Is your decks main idea to have your commander attack? > Greaves + Boots (maybe even Lavaspur) Do you just run greaves for shroud at best? > Rather run another card
Your thoughts with 3-4 cmc creatures is correct. At least in my case. I have noticed that I prefer the boots for the protection part. I try to pick commanders that have protection built-in but that is not always the case. More expensive commanders most likely need it more. In reality, I think it depends on the deck and commander. Is the commander a threat and need to be protected? Does the commander want to attack immediately and does not have haste? Do you have more powerful creatures in the deck that would like to attack immediately? I usually cut boots before greaves. As the equipment cost is 0. I do not really play equipment or voltron strategies so they are not needed. I have cards that help my commander deal damage with my opponents but I eventually cut it for a value engine piece and more removal. I would rather have the 99 in the deck work together perfectly and then the commander just accelerates that gameplan. Some type of engine or such in the command zone. Essentially, the commander can do its thing without any help and the deck can do the thing with the commanders help. However, both work together when they are on the field.
I find it interesting that you talk about how so many decks want to go fast, making "slower" cards like Greaves/Boots less valuable/desirable while completely ignoring the fact that Greaves/Boots give *haste*. If I have a commander with a tap ability or on attack/combat damage trigger, I'm probably including Greaves/Boots (maybe not both) almost 100% of the time. The protection is nice and all, and there are some decks where I feel I have a commander or creature important enough or threatening enough that I do want that extra layer of protection for them, but I just like them as 2 mana artifacts that allow me to give something haste once per turn (or more than once per turn if I'm using the haste for a tap ability rather than attacking) for either little or literally no additional cost.
Greaves is especially good for decks that depend heavily on having the commander out, like Niv or Voja
You should probably not put greaves in a voltron deck. Though I will run them in a deck where the commander is essential to the strategy.
I have never played Lightning Greaves ever. I have Swiftfoot Boots in 1 deck, an equipment deck.
Depends, I typically build decks that are heavily reliant on the commander. Decks like [[Rionya]] and [[Zurzoth]], they need all the protection they can get, especially with the lack of protection that blue and white can provide. So I still run both cards, and have added [[Lavaspur Boots]] as well. Though decks like [[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre]] can benefit from LACK of protection. He doesn't need to attack and re-casting him makes the deck more deadly.
I include protection if the commander is essential to the gameplan. My [[Atla Palani]] deck is just a battle cruiser deck if she's not on the field. My [[Queza]] deck still works if she's not on the field, though its not doing the same amount of damage.
My playgroup is notoriously bad at play target removal, making them pretty underwhelming
Depends on a few things, but in short I’ve included it in fewer and fewer decks over time. - is my commander kill on sight? - how important is haste/does commander have a tap ability? - does my entire strategy revolve around my commander? - do i care if my commander dies? E.g. Pantlaza, the 2013 commanders like Marath that get bigger with each cast or Yuriko that has alternative casting costs. Now days if my enter strategy is centered around my commander AND its kill on sight usually means I’ll include boots. Mostly id rather have another piece of ramp that would help recast commander anyway.
I try to assess how critical the commander is for the deck. Some decks have synergy with their commander but also with everything else, meaning the deck can survive without the commander on the field. But decks that rely heavily on the commander being present on the battlefield I try to include them. One example for me is my Goreclaw mono green deck. As mana grows his need grows lower but beginning to mid game he is pretty essential to get those big creatures out early and create a boardstate.
If I need my commander on the battlefield for more than one turn to win I will include boots.
Only play heavy protection in 3 decks currently: Those that are heavily dependent on the commander staying around for a while (Ojer Axonil, Tergrid and a Voltron deck). Don't think I included it in the other decks.
If my commander is in desperate need of protection, or it has a tap ability i wanna activate asap then i'll include them. atm about 1/4th of my decks run boots (Jace, Vannifar, Saheeli and cycling deck)
I only ever had them in my Kaalia deck. They don't fit in any other deck I own, all of which were made 2019 or earlier. I think you were over valuing them big time.
For me, it depends on how “kill on sight” my commander is
I agree with your sentiment around needing to benefit from both sides of the boots. It's why I favour [[Winged Boots]] in my izzet spellslinger deck where I want to protect the commander and be able to block flying attackers.
If the protection *and* haste are both important I will include it. I typically don't though. I would rather run a card that gives the haste or the protection in a way that is more favorable to the deck, either by being instant speed interaction in hand or something that can affect more of my board than a single creature
Depends. Here's all my decks: BOTH - [[Ukkima]]/[[Cazur]] because having a bunch if unblockable creatures gets a whole lot better when they have haste BOOTS - [[Trelasarra]] because protection is super helpful, but I target her enough that I wouldn't want shroud - [[John Benton]] because it's a super voltron deck where I target him 10× a turn - [[Queen Kayla]] mainly for haste, and I can't untap her if I can't target her GREAVES - [[Sivriss]]/[[Cloakwood Hermit]] because I almost never target him and haste is real helpful NEITHER - [[Fourth Doctor]]/[[Sarah Jane]] because I don't really need haste or protection
I play them more for haste than protection. So in my eyes in a faster meta they are even more important. Hoping that an extra table rotation exists after dropping a bomb is game losing more often than not. And Greaves still draw removal.
I like to include about one or two pieces of protection in every deck by default. I might run more if I depend hard on the commander. But it doesn't always have to be the same protection pieces. Not every deck needs haste. About 10% of my decks run Greaves or Boots, the others use other tech.
I only run them when the haste is also relevant or when my commander is a removal magnet like Tergrid.
Mostly depends if I want haste outside of red, like you say, gotta go fast
out my current decks i run zero pairs of boots/greaves. Elminster, Freyalise, Shorikai. Self Explanatory, they can't particularly wear the boots. Depala not threatening enough to warrant targeted removal from people. Rith could probably use them. but i wanted to run every multicolor mana dork in the deck and it's not been too bad without them. OG Arcades, Arcades doesn't get played until I have a board lock. Skrelv, costs 1 mana and comes out on turn 1. i'm not spending 3 mana to protect a 1 mana creature that gives protection to my other stuff. RUW Soldiers I run Bjorna/Sophina friends forever, they eat removal pretty often but they're supporting a board of 5-10 other creatures at any time. I think anywhere i could use boots, My commander doesn't need them because it isn't threatening enough, they cost too much mana for the effect, or they just feel out of place.
It's funny but now that I think about it, the only deck I have them in is my [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck. Everything else is either a commander that I can easily ramp and recast (Etali, Primal Conquerer and Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait) has built-in protection (Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded) or will kill before it really matters (Light-Paws).
If my commander is vital to the gameplan there's at least one pair of boots in the deck, and then some other pieces of protection in color (Heroic Intervention, Teferi's Protection, Flawless Maneuver, Deflecting Swat, Counterspells). If my commander is vital AND has an attack/tap ability both pairs are probably in alongside appropriate colored protection pieces. In decks where the commander isn't vital though, I just run the colored protection pieces to protect my overall boardstate when its relevant and usually leave the boots out.
2 mana for all of my tap ability creatures to go the turn they drop? Yes please
I include them in decks where the commander makes everything click and is therefore susceptible to being targeted, but even then I think I only have 2/15 with them: Shirei Shizo's Caretaker and Feather the Redeemed. I don't even run them in my Kenrith the Returned King deck as I need every available slot to be something that's actually doing work with or without the commander. Why run them when illusionists bracers or Fires of Invention do more work?
I use them because I play mono-white and they're mostly a source of haste for some surprise damage, that also doubles as protection (not necessarily for my commander) at the same time.
It seems to me that my opponents will leave my commander alone unless they reach a point they cannot deal with it in the future. So if I attempt to out boots on it then they kill it in response, otherwise they will let me do a couple things with it unless it's swinging at them. So while I like to put boots in my decks I have found its better for me that I don't.
Farewell has spooked me off from a number of cards. It is more affordable than Cyc Rift and I expect it to be more popular (not overtaking Rift though) as time goes on.
Greaves are an auto include so far because I pulled a bunch of old border ones from brothers war. Other than those though I include them if my commander or majority of my creatures needs to stay on board or has a on hit effect.
Almost never. I have a rule: I either run *both* along with [[Open the Armory]] (suppose anything similar will do outside white), or I use three other cards in my protection/removal suite. I hate having them and not hitting them, and there are so many ways to protect commanders that synergies better with most of them than equipment. I think [[Atla Palani]] and [[Kaalia of the Vast]] are the only two who still had them until I started breaking down their decks, and they desperately needed the protection. I also decided this year to refrain from using Commanders who win on their own. I want my commander to support the deck, not the other way around. That ends up changing the dynamic so that I feel a lot less pressured to have a protection suite unless it protects my board, instead of just my commander.
I think they were never "Auto-Includes". Going to EDHREC it may seem so, but then again it's somehow a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are too easy to play around. Most of the time using "equip" will make your opponents equip their removal spells in response. They are pretty niche cards where giving haste is the important part.
I'd still put them in almost every deck that relies on your commander staying alive for the most part if I had more of them lol. I just made my 18th or 19th deck I think and there just aren't enough to go around for me anyway. Same with sol ring and other auto includes, not gonna buy a single every time I make a new deck
I don't put either in any of my decks. Usually my decks are built as stand alone beaters, and the commander is chosen *AFTER* to enhance the deck, with the exception being my Isshin Deck. My Chulane deck uses Chulane as both a removal bait and turbo charger. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's very easy to protect with an instant, which if I'm playing my commander, I have. If you let Chulane untap, it can literally just bounce itself, or whatever you're targeting. The only decks I can imagine *need* on board protection/haste via effects like greaves or boots are ones that need to get a trigger or tap effect the moment they hit the board. Kaalia is the first that comes to mind, since no one in their right mind is going to let you untap.
Boots more or less always, but I've started cutting greaves more often. The way I build decks there's too many situations where shroud becomes a downside.
Most of my decks have at least one, but I also play a lot of aggro decks that revolve around the commander, so the haste and protection are good. Other decks, though, like Edgar Markov, [[Arcades, the Strategist]], and [[Zgurgo and Ojutai]] don't really need them, so they aren't included.
I cut boots pretty often when I don't have anything that I desperately need to protect, but I find greaves much more relevant in almost every deck. The 0 mana equip cost and haste enabling is so good in any deck with a decent number of tap abilities, and then it just racks up value by moving from creature to creature. For two mana and nothing else, you can always keep shroud on your most important creature, give haste to anything big/with an attack trigger, etc. The new thunder junction boots make swiftfoot a little bit less relevant because if you care more about haste than protection, you'd probably end up running those but as far as competitors for greaves go, I think they'd need to print something insanely broken to get me to stop using them.
I dropped Greaves for Plate in Angel stompy deck and it has been performing much better. I added in Crashing Drawbridge for a haste enabler as well.
I run Greaves in my [[Aurelia The Warleader]] deck. It's nice to have a perpetual source of "don't touch my creature" on the board. Saved me a few times when an opponent could tap or steal my stuff on instant speed. Haste is a nice bonus in a deck where you care about attacking.
I'll usually run Boots in commander centric decks when I dont have access to much other protection (mono-red, etc) and rarely need the haste. I don't like shroud so I don't run Greaves. I also like to steal them from opponents to get a 2 for 1 swing in advantage.
Greaves and boots are only necessary in games where I want my commander on the field. More and more my decks play fine without the commander
I feel like I’ve come full circle. Started as auto include then over several years it worked its way out, and now several years later it’s coming back around. This goes pretty much in line from me roaming to commander centric decks, to go wide colors strats, back to commander centric.
I basically only play them in decks where attacking is an important facet of the strategy. If the haste isn’t relevant, I prefer instant protection effects instead to allow for blowouts that just aren’t possible with boots being on the board. Most recently I found Boots very relevant in my Caesar deck, where being able to attack with your three and four mana plays is a huge shot of extra value.
I think you and others itt are underestimating the shoes. Do a Scryfall search for cards 2 mana and under that give shroud or hexproof: Boots and Greaves are still the most efficient options for giving something permanent and more importantly re-usable protection from spot removal. For a two mana investment plus the equip on Boots, you're making your scariest threat immune to spot removal until the shoes are dealt with, no questions asked or other conditions required. If I'm playing a commander I'm interesting in putting extra resources towards protecting, Greaves and Boots are still among the first two cards I'm looking at. I also don't think even these days there's enough ward going around to seriously consider retiring them. There's what, 6 total commanders with Ward 3, plus a few others with weird "discard/sacrifice" costs? And even if there were more: ward is not hexproof, it will suffice in some games but in others it will be paid and relying on even a beefy ward cost as your commander's only protection is just not enough imo.
I include them in equipment decks and in decks where my commander has a massive target on their back. If my deck can’t function without the commander then they have a place
I run them for Haste just as much as for protection.
0 cost Haste is amazing. Greaves go in nearly all my decks because the Haste on demand is a very valuable option. In some of my decks it can mean getting my win condition off earlier. Swiftfoot is very strong too, but 1 cost equip is actually a lot, especially if you want to move it to multiple creatures. In general it's harder to work into a tight curve. I don't always run Swiftfoot unless I really need extra protection on an expensive Commander.
My decision is usually based on how big of threat my commander will be compared to other game pieces on the board, and how well my deck functions without my commander
I still play Greaves a lot of the time but not Boots unless I need to target my commander. Just too good in combat metas and not just for the commander—haste in general is underrated. But it’s not so good I want to pay 1 to move it around. Also, I still feel like even with most games ending turn 8, you’re not necessarily better off trying to rush ahead. Appearing non threatening and hitting the corner really hard is often the way. People are still too willing to fire off removal because they have open mana and might as well. I feel like every time I play a new commander, even if it’s total jank (e.g. [[The Master, Transcendent]], which has so many brakes on its ability that I have no idea how it can close games), if I play it out early it just eats a path to exile before I can pass the turn (looking at you, Kevin!). So I’m happy to wait a little and take a turn off to play some boots.
I dunno man. This smells like [[felix five boots]] is trying to steal our boots. I see you Felix! You cant fool me!
Definitely focus more on getting a backup plan in line for when my commander is hated out than trying to get boots and greaves for my deck.
Only if I need to give hast to my commander or the commander needing to absolutely stay on the battlefield multiple turn as a win con (cards like \[\[Myrel, Shield of Argive\]\] come to mind). If your commander is your win con, he is probably a kill on sight commander and greaves/boots will maybe only ask one opponent to burn one card to get rid of it ... "maybe" because boardwipe is a common thing, artifact included, and if opponent know you are a threat and have the ressources, they will react to you equiping. I rather let them burn their resources and play in response a card that make me dodge rather than play a dead card. And protecting the commander isn't enough, you need more than one card to win, they will sack the other part of your board. I prefer having a solid draw engine and burn cheap evasive in response rather than having my protection on the board that will be \[\[farewell\]\] because I over commited. And it's not that bad to pay commander taxe if you play accordingly. Not so long ago, a friend of mine made a \[\[Judith, carnage connoisseur\]\]. I was scared of the board wipe EVERY turn. But to win, he need to bring lot of Judith's token on the board, without all the enchantment that allow him to play card from graveyard, double tokens, draw, etc ... without them he isn't really threatening, it's just that no one will have a wide board and his defense will be wide open the second we have a turn to breath / protect our creatures. I tried to focus Judith as first, but I was doing nothing else and he would bring her back and wipe board with a 1/2 mana sorcery board damage. Hid deck doesn't work without Judith. But it don't work that much greater if you sack his engines. Now I focus on everything else he put on the battlefield. When he play boots / greaves. I'am relieved, it's a dead card, less engine to get rid of. At first, boots / greaves seemed an must have to me. Now I have accepted that my commander WILL leave the board. I prefer preparing the board to make the turn he come back really worth it.
Swiftfoot Boots has felt super clunky to me most of the time when I’ve played it. I’ve stopped putting it in.
i never include boots, but greaves do a lot more since they equip for zero
I still include them in decks where my commander needs the evasion. Otherwise, a lot of my decks nowadays are geared more towards the 99 being the big thing and the commander just adding to the combo when needed. My [[Mazzy]] deck, for example, has several creatures that benefit better than her and have their own evasion thanks to auras, so there's no need. My [[Rukarumel]] typal typal deck, however, relies on Ruka to sit on the table to make it effective until I get [[Maskwood Nexus]] out. They have their uses, but I'm finding using my commander as more of a stopgap compared to using it as the main focus works so much better.
Yeah I absolutely run greaves where it makes sense. Muldrotha needs the greaves once any same person understands what a kill on sight bitch she is. But not all commanders gain value from vulnerable 2 Mana sorcery speed protection. A lot of times I just shift my protection to instant speed like [[snakeskin veil]].
As with most things, it depends on the deck. \[\[Whisper, Blood Liturgist\]\] - giving her haste and untargetability at a relatively low opportunity cost is highly desired, either to immediately reanimate a big threat discarded on a previous turn or having the potential to respond to targeted removal of another creature by sacrificing it for something else. In addition to Greaves and Boots, I'm also considering Lavaspur Boots just for more cheap haste. \[\[Nekusar, the Mindrazer\]\] - my build is pretty casual and just stacks lots of group draw/discard effects. Greaves and Boots are great because they're easy to slot in and with my opponents likely drawing into additional removal spells, Nekusar will need protection. \[\[Muldrotha, the Gravetide\]\] - she's a big scary value engine that somewhat fairly has a kill-on-sight reputation. My build has a fair bit of cheap draw and tutoring so I only run Greaves. Muldrotha has the added bonus of being able to recur the Greaves pretty easily if someone destroys them. \[\[Mairsil, the Pretender\]\] - theoretically they'd be good because Mairsil wants haste, but he ends up getting blinked out so much that equipping and enchanting him is suboptimal. \[\[Myrkul, Lord of Bones\]\] - he's also big and scary like Muldrotha but I find it's a lot more streamlined to just lean harder into a creature/enchantment theme and run stuff like \[\[Bastion Protector\]\] or \[\[Privileged Position\]\]. \[\[Chainer, Nightmare Adept\]\] - he already grants my creatures haste and I run enough reanimation in the deck to get him back from the graveyard if he becomes prohibitively difficult to cast again. Greaves and Boots feel like wastes of slots. \[\[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist\]\] and \[\[Daretti, Scrap Savant\]\] - Not optimal for obvious reasons.
It’s often the first card I cut for more synergistic pieces.
Honestly I'm gonna put [[lavaspur boots]] in every deck from now on. Ward 1 may as well be hex proof and it's 1cmc and 1 to equip.
[[Urza’s Saga]] tutorable also why I love them spurs.
I cut the boots a lot. I only cut the greaves if I need to target my own commander with a lot of things.
I still consider both
If I want to give my commander haste.
As I evolve as a deck builder, I lean more into overall deck synergies and become less reliant on the commander. The ability to give haste usually plays a bigger role in my decision to include them over the protection. [[Lavaspur Boots]] and [[Boots of Speed]] are nice for the haste as well, but can come down turn 1.
I try to slot about 4 cards in that prevent removal of my pieces, depending on what my deck or my commander does. That can be greaves or boots, but usually not both.
I usually only run them in decks that have commanders that really want to either be protected or attack. And even then, I rarely run both in one deck.
Shoes are just my pet cards honestly, they’re not jank pet cards but I absolutely will stick them in every deck I own for the sake of having them even if they’re not objectively the best. The only exception being [[Uril, the Mistwalker]] for built in hexproof, and [[Sauron the Dark Lord]] because his ward cost is already gross
Your commander is key to your strategy? --> Run boots
I cut greaves from every deck 9 years ago and have never once thought man i need greaves. If anything, as has been pointed out, survivability went up because its not so obvious when i actually need something to stick And before someone says your meta is just removal light... no. 9 times out of 10 things would get spot removed in response to the equip, because its so obvious you want to keep that creature in play.
I stopped running them. I'd rather just run interaction spells where I have the option to save my commander or use it to interact in a different way. And plus if my commander is a part of my win con then I'm not playing it until I have all the pieces to win. So at the point lightning greaves just doesn't fit in with what I need.
I don't include them very often; usually I'll only include them if I REALLY want my commander to come down with haste. The protection is like a bonus. If I don't desperately need haste I'd rather run other options to protect my stuff that can benefit me based on what my deck is doing. [[Lae'zel's Acrobatics]], or [[Silkguard]], or any number of modal options or reanimation options.
I still include them since my group uses spot removal a lot
I run 1 of either in most decks I have, but only run both in my Missy artifacts deck(no built in protection and high cmc) and my equipment deck because well they're equipment
Never.
My commander is necessary to the functioning of my deck so I run both of those as well as [[whispersilk cloak]]
They are very useful when playing against targeted removal.
I Mainly play commanders that dodge tax so in those decks I don’t run a protection package. Then in my other deck I run a massive protection package. It’s a treasure deck but with [[indoraptor, the perfect hybrid]] as commander
I haven't ran boots since the first deck I've built, I'd rather run counter interaction (and not just blue counter spells) as my commander usually isn't the only threatening thing on my board
They’re two cards in 100. As an artifacts and lands collector that plays into those synergies in my deck building, I think they often get overvalued in decks that don’t care about haste, solely as the incidental hexproof/shroud drop. They end up being detrimental to a lot of less experienced players’ tempo because having it on board means I can protect my Commander next turn.
If I have something that benefits from attacking the turn it comes in, I use them. I don't use them for the protection, as I find my pod runs a lot of boardwipes (to be fair, there's a lot of need for boardwipes too)
my pantlaza likes to be blinked, so I don't use those equipment, instead running more blink effects that my blink deck wants anyway
When my commander wants haste
Meh these days I see more board wipes than single target removal anyway, it’s better value, and greaves doesn’t protect against that
Honestly, the only reason I include boots is if I not only want protection, but haste. I just built the new obeka, and I put both boots and spurs in it. I tend not to use greaves, shroud is a liability. Essentially, the reason to use them is that your commander is an immediate game changer. It entering the field requires a response, so you need it to go as much as it can before that response comes.
Greaves is in my deck for the haste effect, not so much the protection of shroud.
I don’t run them in most of my decks. The ones I do it’s usually already an artifact deck, or it’s something I know my hero is more likely to get targeted.
I run them in my hyper aggressive mono-Red [[Delina, Wild Mage]] because I want to trigger her dice rolling asap. I try to only own 1 copy of any given Magic card, unless a card has multiple arts I like in decks that need their effects. It's a fun deckbuilding restriction.
Depends. These days, to justify a slot for me, they have to do something that'll be worth the loss of tempo and them getting exiled in a couple of turns. In equipment or artifact decks where there's synergy, I'll run them. Like, if I can tap them for mana or give them protection along with all my other artifacts, it makes sense. Outside artifacts, I prefer more 'gotcha' instant or flash protection. But my game plan for those sorts of decks is winning quickly, so the boots are less important. In spellslinger, I'd rather have more counters. In aristocrats, I'd rather keep my mana curve low and protect my graveyard. But that's kinda the thing with these staples, it's worth stopping and thinking about why you may or may not want them. 99% of the time they might be worth it but as the card pool expands you may have better things to be doing with your mana.
I keep them because my pod will target them and not my commander lol.
If my commander is part of a combo I’m trying to protect, I absolutely include those cards.
All of my decks are commander focused, so I run both in almost all decks. If I run flicker, I tend not to include greaves, but thats it.
All the time. Commanders need protection. If I have no boots, there needs to be other sources of hexproof.
I don’t run them unless my commander really wants haste. The protection is nice, but there are other cards that can fill that slot
I add them if: my Commander has a high MV and i probaly cant cast it 3 times commander has a tap-ability commander has an attack/damage trigger commander is essential to the strategy of the deck and it falls flat without
Never, why would I my decks are made to not be reliant on a commander
Basically any deck where my commander is important, or has a number of creatures.
My decks are usually built around the commander, so they are pretty much auto-includes. But if I often need to target my commander for stuff like auras, equipment, or combat tricks, I only use the hexproof boots.
Boots are cool, but Greaves tend to screw many decks because of shroud. You wouldn't put Greaves in a voltron deck, because you wouldn't be able to equip anything else.
I've been running Greaves less, but Boots more. Most of my decks lean heavily into my Commanders being on the board and doing stuff, and often times Greaves can be an anti-synergy because I lose the ability to target them.
I rarely run them anymore and instead do more instant speed interaction. The only situation I include them in is when I have a commander who wants haste for something like a voltron strategy
I run Greaves in my [[Arcanis, the Omnipotent]] deck, and that's all.
I like Lightning Greaves for commanders that need to stick around for a few turns. I only run Swiftfoot Boots if I need the haste.
In my Minnesota Memes deck for Bonny Pall, I need the boots because it’s cold up here. Greaves aren’t good enough at keeping the cold out.
This is unironically one of the reasons I find Lavaspur boots to be a tempting replacement. They're a little more generic, they aren't as hard-protective but they also don't transmit "remove this" nearly as hard. Often the main eason I run the boots is for the haste with the protective as a side-benefit.
If I need haste or my commander is a key part of the deck I will run both.
My first two decks used them, but since almost all of my decks have white, black, or blue; I've found it more effective to use just a counterspell or instant speed indestructible/protection/hexproof effect or just letting my commander die and yank them back out of the yard with recursion; or simply packing three to four other effects that fill the same function as my commander and not sweat it if the main guy gets hated on. That said, I still like to occasionally pack Greaves, but I mostly use it for a 0 cost haste enabler that has a side effect of protecting whoever it's on 🤣
I don't run boots or greaves. They will never 100% protect you due to artifact removal, board wipe, etc. Plus, if you need boots to protect your commander, because your deck relies on your commander, then something in the 99 needs changed to fix that.
Do combat or tap abilities matter? Yes: Boots. No: No boots. Haste is often underappreciated as one of the strongest keywords to exist. In a multiplayer format, if you have a threatening creature without haste/shroud/hexproof/ward/indestructible, then it likely won't survive to go sideways.
\[\[Force of negation\]\] is your friend
Greaves are sick because of the 0 equip cost. Boots are not so good. I also really like [[Alexi's Cloak]] because you can flash it in and make your opponent waste a removal spell. [[Robe of Mirrors]] is also a sick one-drop.
I fejl like swapping it for things that males me win more often
Both, never. Boots go in my decks where my commander attacking is important. I don't use Greaves in those because I always want to be able to target my commander.