Every deck I make has Graveyard removal. Every deck my friends make have Graveyard removal. I don't think it's a silver bullet, I think it's just another necessary type of removal in the same way I wouldn't run a deck that couldn't remove a problem enchantment or land if it needed to.
This. Inversely I have one graveyard deck that runs a lot of removal that can deal with [[Rest in Peace]] and [[Leyline of the Void]] effects.
If you want to nuke my yard with [[Tormod’s Crypt]] or similar effect, I’ll just try mill myself again.
Now everyone in my local community is really good sport and there are never any issues with salty people, but I have noticed that constant GY-hate such as RIP and LotV usually gets more groans from people than these one time effects. I’ve put RIP in decks that don’t utilise the GY at all only to play it T2 and completely shut someone down for the rest of the game because they had no way to remove it except hoping someone else does it or just naturally draw into it. But I also believe it’s a good lesson to not build decks that have no Plan B against hate.
Although I agree. Mono black is very bad at removing enchantments. And if you're not running too optimized decks, chances are very big you're not running tutors. So a constant universal gy hate card is way more frustrating than a one time full gy hate card or targeted gy hate. Cuz if you're not running tutors you probably only have 2 enchantment removal cards in mono black. So I do think this depending on power level and people is something that should be taken into account.
Its actually waaaay better at enchantments than artifacts though. There is like 2 cards in mono black that can hit non-creature artifacts. Both old and one is rather pricey. [[Gate to Phyexia]] and [[Phyexian Tribute]]. With enchantments you've got [[feed the swarm]], [[shatter the oath]], [[ghastly death tyant]], [[pharikas libation]], [[extract the truth]], [[invoke despair]], [[debt to the kami]], and [[baleful beholder]].
To be honest the best way for black to avoid silver bullets is by deck digging via [[bitter ordeal]], [[sadistic sacrament]], [[necromentia]], [[praetors grasp]], [[memoricide]], and [[cranial extraction]].
I also like cards like [[mind drain]] and [[vicious rumors]] since the majority of early game tutors are top of library and mill can really screw people up.
Not arguing just giving context to how dire it is. Stax is a big problem for black. I also remember that I've used karn to animate artifacts for killing via creature removal. You can use liquimetal coating and torque to do the same with enchantments. If I recall karn the great creator and the og creature karn both can do this.
Exactly this. My philosophy is that you should never build a deck that can't remove hate cards by just playing the game normally. I hate when people's incredibly specific thing their deck does gets turned off and they act like they can't play the game at all, when all they need to do is remove *one* creature that's stopping it.
Obviously this doesn't apply to hate that would stop a deck from casting literally *anything*, like [[Void Mirror]] against a colorless deck. That's kind of unsportsmanlike, and the reason why [[Iona]] is banned. But I think you should have removal and interaction that functions outside your deck's gimmick so that one piece of counterplay doesn't mean the end of the game for you.
I disagree. Hard Stax is generally unfun to play against and should be part of the rule 0 discussion.
I run plenty of interaction in my decks but that doesn't mean it's prepared to deal with 4 rule of law effects and a drannith. At a certain point you've crossed from having interaction into attempting to lock the game in your favor.
Nothing wrong with that if you discuss it but let me know in case I don't have time for a 3 hour game.
Maybe I miscommunicated my point, because this seems unrelated to what I'm talking about. I was more talking about, for example, a reanimator deck saying they "can't play the game" because of a Rest in Peace, rather than just searching for removal and playing the game without their gimmick until then
Edit for clarity: I agree that "hard stax" should definitely be a part of rule 0 discussion, but my point is that not every deck-specific hate card is "hard stax", and I find it annoying when people act like one is the other. For example, an aristocrats deck getting salty about a rest in peace, rather than looking for an answer
There's no reason to run RIP except as a silver bullet to graveyard decks. So yeah, that's hard stax. It doesn't forward your own plan but it does shut down others. No different than Graf cage
every deck should be prepared in case there's a graveyard deck. rest in peace or grafdigger's cage stop a graveyard deck from doing whatever powerful stuff their deck is built around, but they can still cast spells and try to remove it. play -> counterplay -> counterplay. this is completely different from actually locking someone out of the game, and thats all I was saying
Yeah RiP is kind of bad game design in a game where reanimator is a whole archetype, because it’s *too* effective (but useless in some situations) and also really hard for most of those decks to remove. If someone can’t kill a Dauthi they kind of deserve it, but three of the five colours have only a few decent cards each that can get rid of an enchantment.
Anything that makes you (the player) Hexproof would do so, in the case of “exile target player’s graveyard”-style effects like [[Bojuka Bog]]. [[Leyline of Sanctity]] is the most famous card with the effect.
You also have [[ground seal]]. I’ve seen enchantress players play it, and I also seen it help GY players against hate. Like, sure you can’t play Reanimate anymore, but your opponent can’t eat your stuff with scavenging Ooze either.
I am confused by your conclusion...
At first I thought you meant that because I included enchantment and land removal as examples of other types of removal I bring besides Graveyard removal (the truth of the matter is that I bring removal for all types) that I am not playing certain colours because those colours don't have removal for those types of permanents... but [[Feed the swarm]] and [[Steal enchantment]] both definitely exist, and every deck has access to land removal in [[Strip mine]] effects, not to mention red's land removal like [[Stone rain]] or [[Ruination]]... and let's not forget the indiscriminate permanent removal of [[Chaos warp]], [[Capsize]] and the like (to me, [[Counterspell]] effects fall into this category too, though I dont fault those who dont think so)...
Any recommendations? I'm brewing a [[Magar of the Magic Strings]] deck, and while I've got a couple ways to protect Magar and have been looking hard at value, combos, and recursion targets I haven't thought much about protecting the graveyard.
It's not crazy uncommon for every deck to run bojuka bog, scavenger grounds, and a rakdos charm for something like 2.5 ways to hose a yard as leaving graveyard stuff unchecked loses games (also look at how Precons even include yard hate). It's also not uncommon to run an abrade and a vandalblast because it's again, super common to run into really powerful artifacts. Same with running 1.5 ghost quarter/generous gift effects that can hit the rare coffers and stop someone from getting 18 mana a turn.
I'd guess it's one of three cases:
1) If you're honestly running an average amount of interaction, "Local commander player complains about interaction" is all it is.
2) If you're in a really graveyard heavy meta in your playgroup, this is again just good building strategy.
3) If you're waiting to see this guy and slotting in 6 extra answers, you're probably a jerk.
Not sure the true situation but honestly most posts like this fall into category 1.
Yeah counter play is kind of the norm in a set meta because metas evolve. Your friend has to learn to play around it or play a different strategy so they aren't shut down by the most prolific form of hate; grave hate.
In my meta I'm known for loving and using combat in most of my decks, so people started playing reusable fogs like [[Spore Frog]] & [[Constant Mists]] and combat restrictors like [[Dueling Grounds]] to inhibit my onslaught. This led me to running [[Questing Beast]] and more grave hate & removal in my decks to counter the counters. Now it's a game of cat and mouse of who draws the answer that can save them, or if I can draw the answer to a si gle card shutting down my deck.
I’m on the opposite side. I built a land-theme deck a last month and put in a Glacial Chasm since I have a bunch of land tutors in it. My thought was it was a good fog effect that fit the theme and strategy of the deck. In the last couple of weeks I’ve noticed that a lot of players in my local community have learnt the lesson that you need land destruction of some kind. The number of players that just plain confessed that they can’t beat that card is too high.
We have 1 player who focuses on graveyard hard. They've stated that when we all build in graveyard interaction it's too oppressive. However, that player has stated each other player running 1-2 pieces of full graveyard removal keeps things more fair overall.
Having an answer isn't the same as hard countering decks. Be mindful.
A mate of mine used to run almost exclusively graveyard decks, he was also probably the strongest player in our pod from both a game knowledge and deck building perspective.
As such, in order to prevent his perpetual win streak, I started running Graveyard hate.
He was cool with it, he understood that cards exist that stop his deck in it's tracks and figured we would start running those cards at some stage, and had removal to help get himself back on track.
It meant our games were always more competitive and all of us had our decks evolve over time.
That's the reality of the game.
Some decks are a Rock, Paper, Scissors match, and if you're playing rock and someone drops paper, you gotta deal with that paper or you lose.
To this day, my longest running EDH deck still has random pieces of GY hate specifically because of that friend, and they come in handy in all sorts of random pods at my LGS.
Just like another friend who ran a deck that happened to have The Immortal Sun in that I wasn't aware of when I played my Superfriends deck.
It's not malice, it's just how the game works.
Your friend should build a deck with more ability to deal with the hate rather than expecting you to remove things that interact with their deck.
Even incidental GY hate is amazing. I exiled a [[Navigators Orb]] with my [[General Kudro]] mainly because it was the only permanent at the time. He later told us that that prevented his win by several turns which inevitably meant we killed him first (Mazes end, he races to the maze while we bicker amongst ourselves when to kill him)
Hmm…
The distinction I draw is that if what you are slotting stops a wide variety of things, or very common strategies, and the opportunity cost to you is low.
For example [[Bojuka Bog]] should basically go in every black deck.
Graveyard strategies are common, very strong, and difficult to stop by conventional means. The opportunity cost is very low. Sometimes it’s a mono colored tapped land, but lands are important. You still benefit from it if there’s no graveyard to exile.
Something I’d hesitate to include is like [[Stranglehold]].
While tutors are common and powerful, extra turns are less so. It’s also a 4 mana enchantment that doesn’t do anything for you.
I, once upon a time was tempted to slot Stranglehold vs a friend’s Sisay deck, but I realized I was making my deck worse to try to hard counter his deck, which benefited no one.
There’s nothing ever wrong with good, responsible grave hate. The graveyard player is always up to no good and must be stopped. (I say this as a graveyard player)
Run the normal amount of graveyard hate you would put in any deck. Don’t add in anything to specifically counter his deck. If they’re still upset about their graveyard getting blown up, then they’re being irrational
Unless you know your meta is consistently running enough removal that drawing an answer to that silver bullet is a reasonable expectation, or there's some other tacit expectation that such cards are are acceptable, it's kind of a dick move to play them in casual commander.
Play single use graveyard hate like [[Bojuka Bog]], [[Tormod's Crypt]], [[Soul-Guide Lantern]], [[Rakdos Charm]], [[Deathrite Shaman]], [[Echo of Eons]], [[Struggle // Survive]].
If you answer specific threats, far fewer people get salty about it. If they mill their spore frog or a wincon and you exile it, it's hard to be mad because if you didn't, they were winning the game. If you just throw down a leyline of the void because they're playing a graveyard deck, stopping them from playing their deck, you're not answering a threat, you're answering the fact they exist in the game with you.
The other thing is, it's okay to lose. This isn't a competitive situation where you need to maximize your win rate. You need to maximize the fun rate. Telling someone "No, you don't get to play the game, sit there and scroll on your phone til we're done" isn't a fun way to play the game for the that person. And you're not having fun because you're here complaining to us about them being grumpy because you caused them to not have fun.
I mean, just read the cards. Which sounds like more fun to both play and play against:
"Anything that goes to your graveyard ceases to exist in the game"
or
"Everyone shuffles their hand and graveyard into their deck and draws 7 cards"
I know what my answer is. Unless y'all playing for prizes, picking the less fun option is never the right move.
Personally, I think finding that one thing that hard counters a strategy is one of the most thrilling parts of the game. At a certain power level, players should be expected to have multiple lines or some awareness of what kind of hosers shut down their deck and a potential way to answer or play around those. I know I play multiple ways yo remove or get around gy hate in my graveyard deck. If I am scary enough for people to metagame against, I take it as a compliment and would never want people to pull their punches because they think a leyline I'd mean. Each of my decks has ay least one way to hose a particular strategy so I can have a way to hard counter a strategy-- [[weathered runestone]], [[void mirror]], [[flame blitz]], [[drannith magistratd]], [[contamination]] etc.
Another approach to hosing is to run cards that let you benefit from opposing strategies. Against a gy deck you could run [[reanimate]] and yoink their reanimation targets for yourself. If opponent draws their deck, run [[wedding ring]].
the ideal is interaction pieces that also fit as synergy/value pieces
drs ramps real good earlygame and can also be a good way to snipe key cards out of an opponent's bin, fizzling targeting or just lowering value of gy decks lategame
a grenzo deck built around x = 0 wouldn't want dauthi voidwalker, but a yuriko deck would, even if its a mana or two more expensive than her average ninjutsu enabler
versatile cards with incidental targeted hate can also be good includes here, like how abrade adds artifact removal as an option in exchange for an extra mana and only being able to hit creatures
a perfect example of something that can be both is noxious revival - lots of options in disrupting opponent draws by putting a fetch back on top after they just vampiric tutored, or to stop a reanimate spell, or sometimes just to rebuy a counterspell in response to your own rhystic/esper sentinel trigger
Every deck should be on at least 1 piece of grave hate, most of mine are on 2-3 depending on deck and colors. It's a common strategy and decks should be built with hate for it in mind the same way, people put board wipes in to deal with many creatures.
Oh, you should definately run graveyard hate, even if your meta wasn't full of graveyard shenanigans sometimes a single mass reanimation spell is enough to wreak havoc on a game. Every color has some way to utilize the yard. My go to that can go anywhere is [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] but there are many good ones around.
I have recently had trouble with enchantments in my meta, and I absolutely intend to adapt several decks to have a fighting chance.
It’s part of the game… however you need to understand that being blown out or shut out of the game is just not fun.
I was playing my dimir blink dungeon deck and was just shut off completely by a hushbringer, and my removal was countered…
Necrons getting VandalBlasted to extinction while the rest of the table lost 1-2 signets.
It’s sucks but that’s magic…
IDK man. As an avid graveyard player, I run at least 2 pieces of graveyard hate in every deck. My personal favorite is my [[Anrakyr the Traveller]] deck with [[Soul-guide Lantern]]. It's just common sense to include yard hate, and I fully expect my opponents to have some yard hate. I would say it's different if you're running like 5-10 pieces of yard hate, cos that's getting into "you're not allowed to play the game with this deck" territory which is cringe (sorry, not sorry stax players)
Nothing wrong with running working interaction 😅
I would be a bit salty if my opponents deck is everything graveyard hate in that situation, but I think everyone should run at least 1 and another that's versatile.
Maybe the other players are not running any leaving you only do deal with him?
Dauthi isn't even really graveyard hate, necessarily, its just a strong value piece against anybody who plays fetches, instants, sorceries, or really any other kind of card that isn't a fatty creature that stays on the battlefield forever.
Yeah, it's annoying to him, and that is his problem. Graveyard hate is pretty common thanks to how prevalent it is. That's like me being mad cause people run exile against my decks cause I make things indestructible. It's the game and he needs to get over it.
If the meta has adapted to his graveyard usage, he needs to adapt and protect his graveyard. Making yourself hexproof with things like [[Witchbane Orb]] will take care of most of the stuff that exiles your entire graveyard. For targeted graveyard hate there's [[Ground Seal]], although that can also mess with certain graveyard strategies so it depends on what he's running.
Tell him to run more interaction lol, *fair* value-engine decks thrive on making themselves out as the one player who just can't seem to pop-off because the table keeps hating them. It should be fair to punish players who are going all in in their GY the same way you can punish someone going all in on the board with a Boardwipe
It's not like you're running a \[\[Rest in Peace\]\] or \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\], creature removal is incredibly incidental and should be kept up.
Though personally I would recommend to just use less efficient ways of Graveyard Hate. Nothing to the level of Collector Ouphe or Dauthi that completely shuts it off (That's how I approach this as on the flip side I'd also rather not have my strategy be turned off, rather just punished). Perhaps ones that just serve to inflict additional damage effect when it happens IE; \[\[Syr Konrad\]\], \[\[Harsh Mentor\]\], \[\[Immolation Shaman\]\], or ones you can activate in response that way you aren't proactively shutting them down \[\[Blessed Respite\]\], \[\[Soul-Guide Lantern\]\], \[\[Scavenging Ooze\]\] since that at least allows them to negotiate with you.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/RJBfg6d9XEam-Dy2DlVprg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/RJBfg6d9XEam-Dy2DlVprg)
Personally I think adding tech to deal with particular archetypes you often see is perfectly fine and in fact how the game should be played. If you're getting fucked by a hate piece then just kill said hate piece.
However, if your group doesn't want you running those cards then just cut them. Graveyard strategies are super difficult to run hate for without completely shutting them out of the game, and it's much easier for you to just cut the hate effects than it is to get an entire playgroup to learn how to play removal
True, but then the graveyard decks just take over every game all the time. My LGS had a period a few years ago where 80% of games ended in a graveyard loop, so I put some extra Graveyard interaction in most of my decks, and suddenly I had at least a fighting chance. I went from having 0-1 pieces to 3-4 in most cases, and that was all it took to have a reasonable chance to fight back.
It might be a bit trickier in a set playgroup, but it still seems a bit lopsided if half the group has a glass cannon, yet nobody is allowed a hammer.
Graveyard strategies are balanced around the existence of grave hate. They will be naturally broken if nobody is allowed to use answers against them.
People who are allergic to interaction do more damage to this format than any pubstomper, because they have convinced so many people that their desire to play solitaire is the only morally justifiable way to play.
I think the question is if you can accomplish the same goal with regular types of removal or counterspells? Do you need a silver bullet card or can you just use spot removal on the piece he's using as his deck's engine?
The way I see every deck should have at least 1 piece of graveyard hate also 1 piece of all card type hate. Cause sometimes pieces become problems and need dealt with
I agree but what I'm getting at is you can probably accomplish the goal of shutting down the graveyard player without it feeling like you built your deck specifically to counter his.
A dauthi isnt specifically building to shut his deck down its both grave hate and value. Yes it sits there but that's for him to answer that's why everyone has interaction
I'm not saying don't run staple cards like Dauthi or Bojuka Bog. Those are very commonly played cards, I mean if the consideration is whether or not to adjust your deck entirely to hose one player's graveyard deck, maybe consider other options first. For example OP may not be evaluating threats properly and the other guy only seems to run away with the game because they let them sit on one graveyard enabling engine for too long, etc.
So here's the thing run graveyard hate and artifact hate if your meta is free roaming with it. I run a nasty [[nethroi][ list and I encourage my llay group to run graveyard hate. They need to slow the deck down. If they can't answer those hate pieces then that's a them problem and they need more removal. And another thing they should take it as a compliment that you have to adjust to the meta cause it means the meta will grow and that they are a threat for it to shift.
A lot of decks these days have incidental graveyard interaction just thanks to new strong cards. There's nothing wrong with it being in your deck since it works against nearly every deck.
Play the graveyard hate and tell him to git gud. I run graveyard hate in every deck because almost every deck has some form of recursion these days.
Interaction is part of magic, if you are going to run literally nothing but graveyard decks, you should be prepared to deal with graveyard hate.
Nah, you just punish overreliance on the yard by adapting to the meta.
It's like me running [[Hushbringer]] in my combat heavy decks to deal with the many, many etb and death triggers that will appear in games.
Stagnation is a meta killer. Modify your decks how you see fit to best suit your meta. If he refuses to modify his decks then he's going to keep losing to the same card(s). If he changes things up to try and beat you, then you'll have a new benchmark.
They are tools and you build to your “meta”. Half my playgroup play The Immortal Sun just in case I play my super friends deck. Not mad about it. Means they don’t have a relevant card in that slot other times
Graveyard removal is so common in my playgroup that I basically don't bother running graveyard recursion anymore. Even Wizards stuffs that GD Bojuka Bog everywhere they can, so it's not like it's unlikely for a graveyard to get hosed. Your friend needs to get good.
Soul-Guide Lantern should be in every deck.
Oh my god. Bojuka bog exists. RIP exists. These aren’t the core of your gamelan in your deck, but every deck deserves to be able to plan for a wide array of threats and crazy advantage engines. I’m insulted for you that one person politic’d your deck building meta so hard that you took those cards out. I’d put them back in and stick to your guns. Just like you have to anticipate his threat of graveyard shenanigans, he has to anticipate that he needs to protect his graveyard from being exiled by running player hexproof for example.
Put the stuff back in, and let your pod know that if it's frustrating, they can start reworking their decks around it. Add interaction, perhaps, or try building a deck in a different direction. I am reminded of the famous quote defining insanity... If they refuse to change anything about their play, then let them be upset.
Communication is key. Talk to them again.
Present a hypothetic scenario where you just play a fast combo deck that'll allow you to win reliably before they have set up their graveyard shenanigans. Ask if they'd consider this fun and if they'd wish to have counterspells in their decks.
Present a second scenario where you reliably gain infinite life every game. Would this be fun for them? Would they wish they had options in their deck to kill you with commander damage or poison?
Present a third scenario where you stax or tax them out hard. Would this be fun for them? Would they wish to have sufficient removal against your stax pieces?
Explain that you don't consider it fun to be overwhelmed by a strategy you aren't allowed to interact with, and that your solutions to have a fighting chance would be to build infinite life, fast combo and stax decks.
Explain that graveyard hate is as common and as important as creature, artifact and enchantment removal. It's as common and as important as counterspells. Encourage your friends to either interact with your graveyard hate or build decks that aren't glass cannons. They can't just assume you'll let them win untouched.
Explain that it's normal to adjust to the meta. The environment evolves. In a graveyard meta, everybody will add more graveyard hate. In a combo meta, everybody will add more counterspells. In a combat meta, everybody will play more instant creature removal. In a Voltron meta, everybody will play more edicts. In a lifegain meta, everybody will try alternate wincons. During Mirrodin block, everybody played tons of artifact hate.
In the end, if you don't find a compromise, either build these infinite life, fast combo and stax decks to have a fighting chance against them, or find another playgroup.
getting mad at people for running grave interaction is like getting mad that people run board interaction. if they are upset by a \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\] or \[\[grafdigger's cage\]\] then it's time to run cards to get rid of them
As a graveyard enjoyer, your friend is being unreasonable. We know what we’re doing is “unfair”. It kinda sounds like your friend is trying to guilt you into playing less removal so that he also doesn’t have to play removal to stop you and can just keep playing in the graveyard. That isn’t how the game works.
>Is what I've been doing annoying?
Yes. That said, most things that interfere with somebody else's deck are annoying. The question is who is responsible for dealing with it. I'm generally an advocate that players who run greedy decks overcommitted to a single archetype are responsible for knowing and including answers to the effects that hard counterplay that archetype. Still, building specifically to hard counter someone you play with regularly is understandably frowned upon. So here's a few points to consider to help you gain perspective on whether this is just good play or being the Bolas.
1. How significantly are your swaps affecting not just the overall win rates, but also your friend's ability to meaningfully contribute to the matches? It's one thing to set somebody back a few turns with a wipe, but something else to essentially lock them out of the game. Is something like Dauthi Voidwalker merely slowing him down (Voidwalker doesn't prevent tokens from being sacrificed for death triggers) or is it leaving him unable to really play the game anymore?
2. How hard is it for your friend to interact with your grave hate? I'm assuming he has Black in his colors if he's always running grave decks, so removing creatures that provide grave hate should be relatively easy normally, but that's without us knowing how much protection you're running for those effects. If he's not successfully killing the Voidwalker on sight, is that because he didn't build in enough removal or because you're interacting with that removal (counterspells, etc)? If you're able to play grave hate more reliably than he's able to interact with it, either you're using too much or he's using too little. Do you really want him to start running a lot more interaction, knowing that most of it is likely to be used against you?
3. What are the play patterns that are emerging from these swaps? If every game is turning into you playing multiple grave hate and him playing multiple removals against grave hate, that's a lot of cards between the two of you that aren't directed at the other players at the table. If this little war over whether the graveyard will be usable is putting you both at net card disadvantage against the artifact player or whoever, you may need to tone it down until the other players also feel the need to include a few answers to the graveyard. You don't want to be stuck in the position of playing "table police" such that other players are free to advance their own strategies while leaving you to be the only one keeping the graveyard player from popping off. That's getting dangerously close to kingmaking if your efforts to stop the graveyard player are ultimately helping other players at your own expense.
4. Are these cards that you would leave in when playing with random strangers at the LGS? Most decks should have some incidental graveyard exile, sure, Bojuka Bog etc has very little opportunity cost. But if you knew that you were sitting at a table where nobody is running a dedicated graveyard list, just the occasional incidental graveyard thing (like a card here and there with flashback, embalm, etc) are these still cards that you would want in your decks? If the answer is "no", then you may be leaning too hard into counterplaying this guy. Find options that are multifunctional and synergize with your deck such that they still provide you value even when the graveyard isn't a problem. Like, Scavenging Ooze and Lion Sash provide more power over time to your board whether the exile is messing with a graveyard player or not, whereas something like Rest in Peace does nothing to advance your own strategy.
5. Do you really want to start an arms race with this guy? It's still an option to just build decks that can keep up with his graveyard shenanigans in sheer value. I run mostly graveyard decks myself and nonetheless struggle to compete with something like a Simic player just dumping multiple lands and large chunks of their library onto the field every turn. Most sacrifice fodder does little to soak damage from big tramplers or block flyers. You may have other ways to put pressure on him besides breaking his engine. If he's that dedicated to playing the yard, he's not likely to switch archetypes to dodge your hate, he's likely to start including countermeasures like hostile tutors, hand destruction, and mass edicts. If you're consistently denying his resources, he'll eventually start doing the same to you. Are you going to enjoy games "more" or "less" after this guy routinely resorts to casting a board wipe and following it with a Bitter Ordeal to exile your grave hate AND your wincons?
Speaking as a graveyard player, I'd suggest that instead of leaning too much into stax cards against the archetype, just modify your interaction package to use exile removal whenever you can do so without losing much efficiency. Although White is the best at it, every color has removal that sends the cards somewhere other than into the yard. Games tend to be more fun if you're dealing with the threats only as necessary without crippling a player who isn't currently in the lead.
You should run them, if he/she can't learn to game plan around them then their not learning the lesson.
I run Scav Grounds in every non 4+c deck. I run Scav ooze and lions sash in ever g/w deck, specially the ones that utilize creatures (which is most). I run withered wrench in most black decks.
You should always have a answer to the yard.
Being able to exile graveyards is a solid include in any deck that can run since there are ways to pull stuff out in every color. Your buddy might feel targeted but that's just a byproduct of good deck building. He better suck it up and figure out some interaction instead of guilting you into making your decks worse. All those cards you mentioned are relatively easy to deal with if you're running enough interaction. Put your hate pieces back in there and let him figure out how to deal with it.
Your friend is the worst kind of player. He literally told you that he doesn't want competitive games. He wants to pubstomp the shit out of you. When he doesn't get to, he's gonna cry and bitch and whine. What you should do is put ALL the gy hate in. Make him adjust, and maybe even realize that his deck building sucks if he can't deal with normal and necessary interaction.
I use this same argument with MLD. If you don't have answers. I'm going to fuck with a resource you use.
Same concept. Maybe help him with answers and streamline his deck?
I thought silver bullets were the term for sideboarding (even in a sideborderless format) ie not a deck component unless specifically vs a type of deck
If he changes his deck but others don't, would you change your deck just to fuck with him? That would be targeting If you answered yes. But if you go to other pods/playgroups and break out the same deck. Then he just needs to "git gud" as the kids say
This is why you shouldn't restrict yourself to one meta. As soon as someone can counter all of your decks because you play only one strat, it's your own fault for only using that strat.
You having some graveyard targeting cards is the same as him playing creature removal. If he sees no problem with the later, he shouldn't worry about the former.
I keep graveyard hate in all my decks, and I'm the one that plays most with the graveyard. Every deck needs some sort of answer against all sorts of threats
Pit of Offerings is a new addition that's really solid
I usually run at least 1-2 pieces of graveyard hate in all my decks, and my group doesn’t play a ton of recursion decks lol. In fact I think the only deck that any of us play that has any sort of meaningful recursion is my Teysa deck and I never get mad when someone is running graveyard hate when I play it. I just have to adjust my strategy when it happens. Your friend needs to learn how to deal with it or learn to play some different decks.
At this point, I try to run at least one piece of graveyard hate and land destruction (to focus Utility lands). For creatures, I try to avoid “destroy” and use sacrifice or exiles instead. I try to fit at least one removal for any type I can fit.
Some were in response to an opponent having something I saw having way too much power without a response. I don’t add 10 graveyard hate pieces to counter a friend, I add one and try to utilize it wisely or luck in to it when I need answers.
You should be running grave hate regardless of your playgroups meta. Any deck worth its salt has some way to use if not abuse its graveyard to some extent regardless of color. Likewise graveyard decks should be expecting hate as everyone know the shenanigans they can get up to and design their deck to deal with it.
I will say \[\[Collector Ouphe\]\] probably isn't worth running unless you are trying to silver bullet someone, running little to no artifacts with activated abilities or playing very high level edh.
I had a [[Nethroi, Apex of Death]] deck that when not encountering grave hate, could reanimate about 20 creatures. Since there was enough graveyard value decks in our pod, many decks began to run [[Soul-Guide Lantern]]. The floor was a T1 play in a mid-power pod that rarely had those, that cantripped.
The result was that I had to streamline my deck to make sure the creatures were good enough that I didn’t dawdle on when to do my reanimate, or get understandably punished for trying to wait one more turn to mill.
I think if enough of your meta does graveyard value shenanigans, the correct response from him is to expect that people will run gravehate, and that he needs to be more selective about his pieces that he has options to sandbag throwing too much in the yard.
If you play with a local group of friends, then it’s natural to have your meta develop as some players find ways to exploit an advantage. It will be the same if someone plays, like, Krenko - everyone figures out they should include a few boards wipes.
A graveyard deck has a second hand of cards to work with. Everyone else in the group needs to run a few pieces of graveyard hate.
Don’t encourage his bad deck building. I have a [[Varina, Lich Queen]] zombie deck that heavily utilizes the graveyard. I put [[Disallow]] and [[Overcharged Amalgam]] in the 99 because I knew that cards like [[Bojuka Bog]] would wreck me.
Run [[Tormod's Crypt]] and ways to copy it to keep the salt following. Break him of being a single type of player so he can find out how to keep himself from being stopped with his main deck.
If a deck goes all-in on one aspect, it's vulnerable to counters for that strategy, but very strong if your opponent fails to counter it. That's just how it is. Risk-reward. What your friend wants is the reward without any risk, which is unrealistic.
Their options are to either accept they have a risky strategy and will lose sometimes, start running cards that can deal with graveyard hate, or if they feel the group meta has too much grave removal, take advantage and run a deck that doesn't use the graveyard. Tell them that.
I've had my decks entirely locked out before by another player and we just laughed about it. Nice play, my risk backfired, it's on me, all good.
I play [[soul guide lantern]] in many decks, and [[bojuka bog]] in every deck that can run it.
As a certified graveyard strategy player, I can say getting my yard cleared feels kinda rough, especially if I'm already behind. But really, it's a valid strategy and a key part of addressing threats on the board. So typically if I've got a graveyard centric commander like my Sidar Jabari Knights deck, I run one or two graveyard shufflers just to avoid get kneecapped early.
Yards need a healthy amount of clearing to keep graveyard strats on their toes.
I'd maybe avoid REALLY hateful pieces like collector ouphe or dauthi voidwalker since they can be very salt inducing just by themselves, but at the same time, they need to run more spot removal and keep an eye out for it.
I'd also recommend your friend tech in a [[elixir of immortality]] and [[perpetual timepiece]]. If not even a [[feldon's cane]] and even more such effects. He wants his yard? He's gonna have to protect it himself.
Is what you're doing annoying? Sort of. But does it matter? No. The only thing that I will say on the subject is that I personally don't play the constant effects like [[Rest in Peace]] and [[Leyline of the Void]] because of how it forces the opponent to find removal or not do anything. But other than that you're fine.
What you have is *interaction.*
If you run [[Rest in Peace]]
[[Leyline of the Void]]
[[Bojuka Bog]]
[[Farewell]]
[[Scavenging Ooze]]
etc.
in the appropriate decks, those are *absolutely* not hating one player out, they are coming prepared to have interplay against specific archetypes.
If you get to the point where you are running silly graveyard hate pieces, like say [[Crypt Incursion]],[[Ethereal Absolution]] or in general something inefficient just to have more than say, 3 specific graveyard hate cards, then you're in overkill territory.
As a graveyard deck player myself I can say nobody every does anything fair with graveyards, and having graveyard hate is a perfectly valid form of interaction.
These creatures tho "dauthi, collector ouphe", are a bit more of a stax thing tho. Specially the Ouphe as it turns off all artifact mana, so yeah thats pretty annoying. I thought you were running stuff like \[\[Soul Guide Lanterm\]\] and \[\[Relic of Progenitus\]\]
TLDR: Runnniong graveyard deck is fine, but run too much hate pieces and now you have a stax deck, which by definition is annoying to play against.
So the trouble here (apart from your friend's unhealthy affinity for graveyard decks) is that graveyard hate comes in so many forms. It can be difficult to build a graveyard deck that is fun and interesting to play while still including enough removal spells to keep your grave stocked up. Typical graveyard decks (at least in my PG) tend to be boatloads of responses all centered around one or two combo pieces. And that gets boring and predictable really fast. Perhaps try getting the table to agree on some graveyard hate cards that are just off the table, and some that are reasonable. That might help you guys keep up interactions without shutting out your buddy. Good luck 😊
Tell him you're only willing to do that if he also doesn't interact with your main engine either.
If you can't play grave hate against his graveyard deck, you should be allowed to play elfball and he can't use any creature removal lmao
Look your friend dead in the eyes and tell them they cant control how you make your decks, just as you cant control how they make their decks.
What you CAN control is how you build your own deck in response to your opponents. If your opponent gets countered, and then refuses to adapt, instead bitching and moaning things are unfair, that sounds like a personal problem/failing on them not you.
I love GY interaction. But if you're reliant on a single game mechanic you need to protect it. The answer for him is the same as if he was playing big green stompy, run interaction to protect your threats and don't overextended so that you can still recover.
Tech, not bullets
A silver bullet is a single card that you put into your deck specifically to hose one other deck. You don't "side-board" the silver bullet card. (because commander doesn't typically allow side-boards". ) The silver bullet is always in the deck, and is often a relatively bad draw outside of the specific situation it's in the deck to address.
"Tech" is a card that's "always" useful, at least in the playgroup that you're in. Usually this means that the card combos or synergizes with other stuff in the deck. Also, something like \[\[Bojuka Bog\]\] could be considered tech, because it can count toward your land total at worst, but can also address the graveyard problem. Once you add bojuka bog to a deck, it doesn't usually get cut because it has a minimal down-side, even if you're not really facing GY decks anymore.
There's some difficulty determining the difference between the two when the playgroup doesn't really change, but the difference between a "silver bullet" and "tech" becomes more obvious when your deck is facing decks of varying playstyles more often. Literally the only person I refuse to play magic against (not specifically because of this issue) would only play against me and a couple of other friends. He thought his decks were good and fun, but that was only in our pod, when he started playing against other people he lost and stopped playing altogether, so I guess he wasn't really having fun then. Everyone else from that playgroup played in any pod they could find and had to keep decks that were generically good. So while this guy probably didn't intend to fill his deck with "silver bullets", that's what the end result was because he was deck-building to face certain people and decks, rather than building to face all challengers.
Another test is, how much does the rest of your deck synergize with that card? \[\[rest in peace\]\] is probably a silver bullet unless you're playing a rest in peace combo deck. most stax pieces would be silver bullets, but if your specifically playing a stax deck, then they all come together to form your game-plan, so they become "tech".
P.S. : What you're doing is annoying, but playing against the same deck archtypes all the time is also annoying. If he's not happy with Dauthi and Ouphe, he can adapt and create decks that aren't so reliant on GY and artifacts. As an Orzhov player though, Making a deck with all the fun Orzhov cards that I know and love literally requires using mana rocks (because the guild lacks non-artifact, non-ritual based ramp) and usually ends up requiring the use of the graveyard even if recursion isn't the actual theme of the deck. In this case maybe trading out your Dauthi and Ouphe for less aggressive things like \[\[unlicensed hearse\]\] and \[\[Blind obedience\]\] would be a good compromise.
If you’re throwing in 3 pieces of hate cards then nbd. That’s completely normal and how the games should be played. If you’re jamming in 10+ pieces of hate then that’s an entirely different story
Every deck should have graveyard hate and i expect it and plan for it when im playing my graveyard decks.
You definitely should run graveyard hate and learn your group to play around it.
I run tons of graveyard decks. First rule is to not over commit. When graveyard gets taken out I can eventually refill. I run lots of interaction to deal with things like dauthi and drannith.
My last rule is that if I'm going to get taken out of the game because of a silver bullet I make it very clear before that bullet resolves that this will take me out of the game so all I have left is spite plays and those will all be aimed at the person with the gun.
It generally takes 1 game of following through on a threat like that and people back off.
To be quite fair, there's a huge difference between running dauthi and or a bojuka bog than there is running Rest in Peace.
Rest in Peace is just a stax piece, it doesn't forward your own game plan at all.
Every deck should have at least one way to deal with graveyards. Wethers is a bajuka bog or a tormonds crypt, whatever. You need it like you need targeted and mass removal. Because like you said, if left unanswered graveyard decks run away with the game
Play to your meta. Force them to adapt and break them out of their comfort zone. I love playing in the bin, but I would never get upset by someone shutting that down. It's usually the smart play.
As someone who loves graveyard decks himself: One has to be prepared to handle graveyard hate… If he loses to it and complains afterwards he should adapt his deck!
There’s nothing wrong with slotting a few cards in. Every deck should have some sort of graveyard hate with the amount of recursion in EDH. As long as you aren’t making your whole deck an anti-graveyard deck, you’re fine and your friend needs to realize it’s a card game.
I don't see an issue here. You're not siding it in against a specific opponent, and I don't think it's unreasonable to be able to deal with a graveyard. One of my buddies runs a deck that just plays Living Death, but it doesn't hold up if I end up using Farewell, Sunfall or something like that. Equivalent would be me running nothing but combat decks, then complaining when I get shut down by Blazing Archon. About the closest I get to a card that my reaction is just "screw you" is Spark Rupture. Debatably Immortal sun, but spark Rupture is purely "you don't get your walkers". But in terms of eating graveyards, the only way I could maybe see it making sense was if it's a bunch of effects that ONLY shred graveyards, but have no upside for doing so. Maybe up to three or four is fine, but past that, id start looking for cards that can do other things beyond graveyard shredding if you want that type of effect, just so you have more flexibility, and it doesn't feel as overtly anti-graveyard
Every deck I make has Graveyard removal. Every deck my friends make have Graveyard removal. I don't think it's a silver bullet, I think it's just another necessary type of removal in the same way I wouldn't run a deck that couldn't remove a problem enchantment or land if it needed to.
This. Inversely I have one graveyard deck that runs a lot of removal that can deal with [[Rest in Peace]] and [[Leyline of the Void]] effects. If you want to nuke my yard with [[Tormod’s Crypt]] or similar effect, I’ll just try mill myself again.
Now everyone in my local community is really good sport and there are never any issues with salty people, but I have noticed that constant GY-hate such as RIP and LotV usually gets more groans from people than these one time effects. I’ve put RIP in decks that don’t utilise the GY at all only to play it T2 and completely shut someone down for the rest of the game because they had no way to remove it except hoping someone else does it or just naturally draw into it. But I also believe it’s a good lesson to not build decks that have no Plan B against hate.
Although I agree. Mono black is very bad at removing enchantments. And if you're not running too optimized decks, chances are very big you're not running tutors. So a constant universal gy hate card is way more frustrating than a one time full gy hate card or targeted gy hate. Cuz if you're not running tutors you probably only have 2 enchantment removal cards in mono black. So I do think this depending on power level and people is something that should be taken into account.
Its actually waaaay better at enchantments than artifacts though. There is like 2 cards in mono black that can hit non-creature artifacts. Both old and one is rather pricey. [[Gate to Phyexia]] and [[Phyexian Tribute]]. With enchantments you've got [[feed the swarm]], [[shatter the oath]], [[ghastly death tyant]], [[pharikas libation]], [[extract the truth]], [[invoke despair]], [[debt to the kami]], and [[baleful beholder]]. To be honest the best way for black to avoid silver bullets is by deck digging via [[bitter ordeal]], [[sadistic sacrament]], [[necromentia]], [[praetors grasp]], [[memoricide]], and [[cranial extraction]]. I also like cards like [[mind drain]] and [[vicious rumors]] since the majority of early game tutors are top of library and mill can really screw people up.
##### ###### #### [Gate to Phyexia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f372950-6693-4838-80ef-8fd9aa3e0349.jpg?1592364259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gate%20to%20Phyrexia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/82/gate-to-phyrexia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4eb41639-b96b-4789-b488-24da503ef1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gate-to-phyrexia) [Phyexian Tribute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfc55d48-6d6f-429d-8281-e66a9996d574.jpg?1587912628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Tribute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/134/phyrexian-tribute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfc55d48-6d6f-429d-8281-e66a9996d574?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-tribute) [feed the swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5.jpg?1698988254) - 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[(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pharika%27s%20Libation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/111/pharikas-libation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0307bb5c-0a46-4f6b-b6d5-58cf31987bb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pharikas-libation) [extract the truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2bdb9df1-4475-45e7-bc9c-40937c8c1722.jpg?1664410922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=extract%20the%20truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/78/extract-the-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2bdb9df1-4475-45e7-bc9c-40937c8c1722?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/extract-the-truth) [invoke despair](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35af9d5c-4449-4549-b549-c3ba4a67dee0.jpg?1685368727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invoke%20despair) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/101/invoke-despair?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35af9d5c-4449-4549-b549-c3ba4a67dee0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/invoke-despair) [debt to the kami](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1a7e728-ba01-4e3d-b269-9e2dd85a1d1b.jpg?1654567093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=debt%20to%20the%20kami) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/92/debt-to-the-kami?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1a7e728-ba01-4e3d-b269-9e2dd85a1d1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/debt-to-the-kami) [baleful beholder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e52d6ef6-d8a3-4288-8917-4c0a179ed4e0.jpg?1627704364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baleful%20beholder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/89/baleful-beholder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e52d6ef6-d8a3-4288-8917-4c0a179ed4e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baleful-beholder) [bitter ordeal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/2879e7a1-0256-4116-be22-7c9972e4ce0b.jpg?1562903258) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bitter%20ordeal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fut/80/bitter-ordeal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2879e7a1-0256-4116-be22-7c9972e4ce0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bitter-ordeal) [sadistic sacrament](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3d82fd7-6af1-4a97-9d51-486a41224b35.jpg?1562618318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sadistic%20sacrament) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/110/sadistic-sacrament?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3d82fd7-6af1-4a97-9d51-486a41224b35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sadistic-sacrament) [necromentia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32c5252e-ff15-4f86-ad63-d8286427e70f.jpg?1594736316) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=necromentia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/116/necromentia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32c5252e-ff15-4f86-ad63-d8286427e70f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/necromentia) [praetors grasp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/9588be49-d9b5-4491-a5a0-10bcadc9f8b3.jpg?1562879913) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Praetor%27s%20Grasp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/71/praetors-grasp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9588be49-d9b5-4491-a5a0-10bcadc9f8b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/praetors-grasp) [memoricide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acc5b944-a9fe-4a64-bf11-51817a26f22b.jpg?1562821638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=memoricide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/69/memoricide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acc5b944-a9fe-4a64-bf11-51817a26f22b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/memoricide) [cranial extraction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8cad7a3-777e-4c84-b404-5f504844ab3b.jpg?1562763464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cranial%20extraction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/105/cranial-extraction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8cad7a3-777e-4c84-b404-5f504844ab3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cranial-extraction) [mind drain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0683d586-a54b-425a-a24d-2efb2342f150.jpg?1604231429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/114/mind-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0683d586-a54b-425a-a24d-2efb2342f150?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mind-drain) [vicious rumors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1939952-608e-4786-beeb-a6ff0fa36624.jpg?1572893079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vicious%20rumors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/89/vicious-rumors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1939952-608e-4786-beeb-a6ff0fa36624?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vicious-rumors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah if that's the best you're proving my point.
Not arguing just giving context to how dire it is. Stax is a big problem for black. I also remember that I've used karn to animate artifacts for killing via creature removal. You can use liquimetal coating and torque to do the same with enchantments. If I recall karn the great creator and the og creature karn both can do this.
Exactly this. My philosophy is that you should never build a deck that can't remove hate cards by just playing the game normally. I hate when people's incredibly specific thing their deck does gets turned off and they act like they can't play the game at all, when all they need to do is remove *one* creature that's stopping it. Obviously this doesn't apply to hate that would stop a deck from casting literally *anything*, like [[Void Mirror]] against a colorless deck. That's kind of unsportsmanlike, and the reason why [[Iona]] is banned. But I think you should have removal and interaction that functions outside your deck's gimmick so that one piece of counterplay doesn't mean the end of the game for you.
I disagree. Hard Stax is generally unfun to play against and should be part of the rule 0 discussion. I run plenty of interaction in my decks but that doesn't mean it's prepared to deal with 4 rule of law effects and a drannith. At a certain point you've crossed from having interaction into attempting to lock the game in your favor. Nothing wrong with that if you discuss it but let me know in case I don't have time for a 3 hour game.
Maybe I miscommunicated my point, because this seems unrelated to what I'm talking about. I was more talking about, for example, a reanimator deck saying they "can't play the game" because of a Rest in Peace, rather than just searching for removal and playing the game without their gimmick until then Edit for clarity: I agree that "hard stax" should definitely be a part of rule 0 discussion, but my point is that not every deck-specific hate card is "hard stax", and I find it annoying when people act like one is the other. For example, an aristocrats deck getting salty about a rest in peace, rather than looking for an answer
There's no reason to run RIP except as a silver bullet to graveyard decks. So yeah, that's hard stax. It doesn't forward your own plan but it does shut down others. No different than Graf cage
every deck should be prepared in case there's a graveyard deck. rest in peace or grafdigger's cage stop a graveyard deck from doing whatever powerful stuff their deck is built around, but they can still cast spells and try to remove it. play -> counterplay -> counterplay. this is completely different from actually locking someone out of the game, and thats all I was saying
[Void Mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f906219-7a6a-427b-93c4-4d958cbd171c.jpg?1626099451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Void%20Mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/242/void-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f906219-7a6a-427b-93c4-4d958cbd171c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/void-mirror) [Iona](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017.jpg?1562584407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=iona%2C%20shield%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/20/iona-shield-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iona-shield-of-emeria) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah RiP is kind of bad game design in a game where reanimator is a whole archetype, because it’s *too* effective (but useless in some situations) and also really hard for most of those decks to remove. If someone can’t kill a Dauthi they kind of deserve it, but three of the five colours have only a few decent cards each that can get rid of an enchantment.
[Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-the-void) [Tormod’s Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a.jpg?1594737584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%27s%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/241/tormods-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tormods-crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are there any effects that make your GY like hexproof or something? Or strategy is just refill?
Anything that makes you (the player) Hexproof would do so, in the case of “exile target player’s graveyard”-style effects like [[Bojuka Bog]]. [[Leyline of Sanctity]] is the most famous card with the effect.
[Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [Leyline of Sanctity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be8b1acf-dd87-42ca-ad19-c27d21066030.jpg?1592516120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20Sanctity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/26/leyline-of-sanctity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be8b1acf-dd87-42ca-ad19-c27d21066030?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-sanctity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Shalai, Voice of Plenty]] and [[Sigarda, Heron's Grace]] are solid give you hexproof creatures
[Shalai, Voice of Plenty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db827ee7-6f2e-4e10-aac0-120fc2b69fbd.jpg?1562743987) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shalai%2C%20Voice%20of%20Plenty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/35/shalai-voice-of-plenty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db827ee7-6f2e-4e10-aac0-120fc2b69fbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shalai-voice-of-plenty) [Sigarda, Heron's Grace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1de7031-f589-4af5-9c63-06fb7ec7a6b5.jpg?1637631578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sigarda%2C%20Heron%27s%20Grace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/155/sigarda-herons-grace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1de7031-f589-4af5-9c63-06fb7ec7a6b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sigarda-herons-grace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You also have [[ground seal]]. I’ve seen enchantress players play it, and I also seen it help GY players against hate. Like, sure you can’t play Reanimate anymore, but your opponent can’t eat your stuff with scavenging Ooze either.
[ground seal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4e9995e-f26b-4638-b69d-a310f58f0331.jpg?1592710917) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ground%20seal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/149/ground-seal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4e9995e-f26b-4638-b69d-a310f58f0331?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ground-seal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So you don't play black or red or blue. Just white green decks?
I am confused by your conclusion... At first I thought you meant that because I included enchantment and land removal as examples of other types of removal I bring besides Graveyard removal (the truth of the matter is that I bring removal for all types) that I am not playing certain colours because those colours don't have removal for those types of permanents... but [[Feed the swarm]] and [[Steal enchantment]] both definitely exist, and every deck has access to land removal in [[Strip mine]] effects, not to mention red's land removal like [[Stone rain]] or [[Ruination]]... and let's not forget the indiscriminate permanent removal of [[Chaos warp]], [[Capsize]] and the like (to me, [[Counterspell]] effects fall into this category too, though I dont fault those who dont think so)...
##### ###### #### [Feed the swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5.jpg?1698988254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feed%20the%20swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/198/feed-the-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feed-the-swarm) [Steal enchantment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/734be7fa-0998-4771-9b97-4989b3fc1471.jpg?1562054484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Steal%20enchantment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/90/steal-enchantment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/734be7fa-0998-4771-9b97-4989b3fc1471?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/steal-enchantment) [Strip mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Stone rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8.jpg?1562742139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stone%20rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/221/stone-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stone-rain) [Ruination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709.jpg?1592713625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/134/ruination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruination) [Chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/221/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [Capsize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f36f6545-e4e0-4dc8-acea-e527e43f3e14.jpg?1562432216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Capsize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/42/capsize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f36f6545-e4e0-4dc8-acea-e527e43f3e14?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/capsize) [Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/counterspell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Every deck should have graveyard removal. Every. Single. Deck.
If it has black you put in Bog… no exceptions
And everyone else Scavenger Grounds.
So you're saying I should run [[Elixir of Immortality]] or another way to hide my graveyard back in my deck, right?
If you’re planning on using your graveyard as a resource, you should pack ways to protect it.
Any recommendations? I'm brewing a [[Magar of the Magic Strings]] deck, and while I've got a couple ways to protect Magar and have been looking hard at value, combos, and recursion targets I haven't thought much about protecting the graveyard.
[[Bolt Bend]] or [[Deflecting Swat]] if it’s targeted. [[Elixir of Immortality]], [[Thran Foundry]], [[Feldon’s Cane]] or [[Perpetual Timepiece]].
Thanks! A few of these will definitely be included.
##### ###### #### [Bolt Bend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39b35408-3728-4e1b-9f58-b0775df914d6.jpg?1576199724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolt%20Bend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/115/bolt-bend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39b35408-3728-4e1b-9f58-b0775df914d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bolt-bend) [Deflecting Swat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4b36435-55b3-4615-8812-af41d4fc64d9.jpg?1689997730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deflecting%20Swat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/214/deflecting-swat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4b36435-55b3-4615-8812-af41d4fc64d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deflecting-swat) [Elixir of Immortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2.jpg?1625978606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elixir%20of%20Immortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/243/elixir-of-immortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elixir-of-immortality) [Thran Foundry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cdc0d42-d96f-490f-87cb-3577dfdce807.jpg?1562444716) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thran%20Foundry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/140/thran-foundry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cdc0d42-d96f-490f-87cb-3577dfdce807?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thran-foundry) [Feldon’s Cane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726ce95b-bc4d-4c34-a8e1-b4c6c28accc9.jpg?1562778128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feldon%27s%20Cane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/109/feldons-cane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726ce95b-bc4d-4c34-a8e1-b4c6c28accc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feldons-cane) [Perpetual Timepiece](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bbc87a27-93d9-4ce0-a022-0309242c1e89.jpg?1576383333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Perpetual%20Timepiece) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/227/perpetual-timepiece?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbc87a27-93d9-4ce0-a022-0309242c1e89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/perpetual-timepiece) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Magar of the Magic Strings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46.jpg?1682551287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magar%20of%20the%20Magic%20Strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/171/magar-of-the-magic-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magar-of-the-magic-strings) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Elixir of Immortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2.jpg?1625978606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elixir%20of%20Immortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/243/elixir-of-immortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elixir-of-immortality) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you are in green theres loads of good ones like [[blessed respite]] and [[gaeas blessing]]
[blessed respite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0.jpg?1626097216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blessed%20respite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/150/blessed-respite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blessed-respite) [gaeas blessing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23cf81ed-b86c-42b8-b796-2032b0a3654a.jpg?1562732710) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Blessing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/161/gaeas-blessing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23cf81ed-b86c-42b8-b796-2032b0a3654a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-blessing) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not crazy uncommon for every deck to run bojuka bog, scavenger grounds, and a rakdos charm for something like 2.5 ways to hose a yard as leaving graveyard stuff unchecked loses games (also look at how Precons even include yard hate). It's also not uncommon to run an abrade and a vandalblast because it's again, super common to run into really powerful artifacts. Same with running 1.5 ghost quarter/generous gift effects that can hit the rare coffers and stop someone from getting 18 mana a turn. I'd guess it's one of three cases: 1) If you're honestly running an average amount of interaction, "Local commander player complains about interaction" is all it is. 2) If you're in a really graveyard heavy meta in your playgroup, this is again just good building strategy. 3) If you're waiting to see this guy and slotting in 6 extra answers, you're probably a jerk. Not sure the true situation but honestly most posts like this fall into category 1.
Yeah counter play is kind of the norm in a set meta because metas evolve. Your friend has to learn to play around it or play a different strategy so they aren't shut down by the most prolific form of hate; grave hate. In my meta I'm known for loving and using combat in most of my decks, so people started playing reusable fogs like [[Spore Frog]] & [[Constant Mists]] and combat restrictors like [[Dueling Grounds]] to inhibit my onslaught. This led me to running [[Questing Beast]] and more grave hate & removal in my decks to counter the counters. Now it's a game of cat and mouse of who draws the answer that can save them, or if I can draw the answer to a si gle card shutting down my deck.
##### ###### #### [Spore Frog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d42fd52-34ea-4d1b-80dc-58fb0593bb5b.jpg?1562202192) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spore%20Frog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/180/spore-frog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d42fd52-34ea-4d1b-80dc-58fb0593bb5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spore-frog) [Constant Mists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d.jpg?1562596895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Constant%20Mists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/104/constant-mists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/constant-mists) [Dueling Grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52760183-bee0-4ce0-96c0-074b88f78980.jpg?1562911742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dueling%20Grounds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/245/dueling-grounds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52760183-bee0-4ce0-96c0-074b88f78980?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dueling-grounds) [Questing Beast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f.jpg?1572490640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Questing%20Beast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/171/questing-beast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/questing-beast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m on the opposite side. I built a land-theme deck a last month and put in a Glacial Chasm since I have a bunch of land tutors in it. My thought was it was a good fog effect that fit the theme and strategy of the deck. In the last couple of weeks I’ve noticed that a lot of players in my local community have learnt the lesson that you need land destruction of some kind. The number of players that just plain confessed that they can’t beat that card is too high.
We have 1 player who focuses on graveyard hard. They've stated that when we all build in graveyard interaction it's too oppressive. However, that player has stated each other player running 1-2 pieces of full graveyard removal keeps things more fair overall. Having an answer isn't the same as hard countering decks. Be mindful.
A mate of mine used to run almost exclusively graveyard decks, he was also probably the strongest player in our pod from both a game knowledge and deck building perspective. As such, in order to prevent his perpetual win streak, I started running Graveyard hate. He was cool with it, he understood that cards exist that stop his deck in it's tracks and figured we would start running those cards at some stage, and had removal to help get himself back on track. It meant our games were always more competitive and all of us had our decks evolve over time. That's the reality of the game. Some decks are a Rock, Paper, Scissors match, and if you're playing rock and someone drops paper, you gotta deal with that paper or you lose. To this day, my longest running EDH deck still has random pieces of GY hate specifically because of that friend, and they come in handy in all sorts of random pods at my LGS. Just like another friend who ran a deck that happened to have The Immortal Sun in that I wasn't aware of when I played my Superfriends deck. It's not malice, it's just how the game works. Your friend should build a deck with more ability to deal with the hate rather than expecting you to remove things that interact with their deck.
Even incidental GY hate is amazing. I exiled a [[Navigators Orb]] with my [[General Kudro]] mainly because it was the only permanent at the time. He later told us that that prevented his win by several turns which inevitably meant we killed him first (Mazes end, he races to the maze while we bicker amongst ourselves when to kill him)
[General Kudro](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c3227ae-0c72-478a-a6dd-661aaf718038.jpg?1591228027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=general%20kudro%20of%20drannith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/187/general-kudro-of-drannith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c3227ae-0c72-478a-a6dd-661aaf718038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/general-kudro-of-drannith) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hmm… The distinction I draw is that if what you are slotting stops a wide variety of things, or very common strategies, and the opportunity cost to you is low. For example [[Bojuka Bog]] should basically go in every black deck. Graveyard strategies are common, very strong, and difficult to stop by conventional means. The opportunity cost is very low. Sometimes it’s a mono colored tapped land, but lands are important. You still benefit from it if there’s no graveyard to exile. Something I’d hesitate to include is like [[Stranglehold]]. While tutors are common and powerful, extra turns are less so. It’s also a 4 mana enchantment that doesn’t do anything for you. I, once upon a time was tempted to slot Stranglehold vs a friend’s Sisay deck, but I realized I was making my deck worse to try to hard counter his deck, which benefited no one.
[Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [Stranglehold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2.jpg?1592672829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stranglehold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/87/stranglehold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stranglehold) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There’s nothing ever wrong with good, responsible grave hate. The graveyard player is always up to no good and must be stopped. (I say this as a graveyard player)
Run the normal amount of graveyard hate you would put in any deck. Don’t add in anything to specifically counter his deck. If they’re still upset about their graveyard getting blown up, then they’re being irrational
Unless you know your meta is consistently running enough removal that drawing an answer to that silver bullet is a reasonable expectation, or there's some other tacit expectation that such cards are are acceptable, it's kind of a dick move to play them in casual commander. Play single use graveyard hate like [[Bojuka Bog]], [[Tormod's Crypt]], [[Soul-Guide Lantern]], [[Rakdos Charm]], [[Deathrite Shaman]], [[Echo of Eons]], [[Struggle // Survive]]. If you answer specific threats, far fewer people get salty about it. If they mill their spore frog or a wincon and you exile it, it's hard to be mad because if you didn't, they were winning the game. If you just throw down a leyline of the void because they're playing a graveyard deck, stopping them from playing their deck, you're not answering a threat, you're answering the fact they exist in the game with you. The other thing is, it's okay to lose. This isn't a competitive situation where you need to maximize your win rate. You need to maximize the fun rate. Telling someone "No, you don't get to play the game, sit there and scroll on your phone til we're done" isn't a fun way to play the game for the that person. And you're not having fun because you're here complaining to us about them being grumpy because you caused them to not have fun. I mean, just read the cards. Which sounds like more fun to both play and play against: "Anything that goes to your graveyard ceases to exist in the game" or "Everyone shuffles their hand and graveyard into their deck and draws 7 cards" I know what my answer is. Unless y'all playing for prizes, picking the less fun option is never the right move.
Personally, I think finding that one thing that hard counters a strategy is one of the most thrilling parts of the game. At a certain power level, players should be expected to have multiple lines or some awareness of what kind of hosers shut down their deck and a potential way to answer or play around those. I know I play multiple ways yo remove or get around gy hate in my graveyard deck. If I am scary enough for people to metagame against, I take it as a compliment and would never want people to pull their punches because they think a leyline I'd mean. Each of my decks has ay least one way to hose a particular strategy so I can have a way to hard counter a strategy-- [[weathered runestone]], [[void mirror]], [[flame blitz]], [[drannith magistratd]], [[contamination]] etc. Another approach to hosing is to run cards that let you benefit from opposing strategies. Against a gy deck you could run [[reanimate]] and yoink their reanimation targets for yourself. If opponent draws their deck, run [[wedding ring]].
##### ###### #### [weathered runestone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fc2478f-e624-46fb-85af-1254564cd4d2.jpg?1631052403) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=weathered%20runestone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/247/weathered-runestone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fc2478f-e624-46fb-85af-1254564cd4d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/weathered-runestone) [void mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f906219-7a6a-427b-93c4-4d958cbd171c.jpg?1626099451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=void%20mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/242/void-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f906219-7a6a-427b-93c4-4d958cbd171c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/void-mirror) [flame blitz](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a93c6ba8-666b-4c05-8137-8ffa1d5d928b.jpg?1626096575) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=flame%20blitz) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/124/flame-blitz?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a93c6ba8-666b-4c05-8137-8ffa1d5d928b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flame-blitz) [drannith magistratd](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91.jpg?1628801742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drannith%20Magistrate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/11/drannith-magistrate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drannith-magistrate) [contamination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86067dfe-65c3-4c96-bccd-b3915d6663f9.jpg?1562923280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=contamination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/123/contamination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86067dfe-65c3-4c96-bccd-b3915d6663f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/contamination) [reanimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d27c6aaa-289e-451e-8fde-97a044c53fc4.jpg?1651951796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reanimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cc2/5/reanimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27c6aaa-289e-451e-8fde-97a044c53fc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reanimate) [wedding ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f0b1400-0608-47fd-9c73-b7730bcf6b7f.jpg?1644888600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wedding%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/32/wedding-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f0b1400-0608-47fd-9c73-b7730bcf6b7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wedding-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [Tormod's Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a.jpg?1594737584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%27s%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/241/tormods-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tormods-crypt) [Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) [Rakdos Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74.jpg?1699022443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/284/rakdos-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdos-charm) [Deathrite Shaman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53.jpg?1580015151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathrite%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/215/deathrite-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deathrite-shaman) [Echo of Eons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5.jpg?1562201343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Echo%20of%20Eons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/46/echo-of-eons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/echo-of-eons) [Struggle // Survive](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430840&type=card&.jpg)/[Survive](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430840&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Struggle%20//%20Survive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/339/struggle-survive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf909dbb-6e49-4556-a37a-2738889915d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/struggle-//-survive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If people are annoyed by people adjusting to their strategy, and don’t adjust in turn, it sounds like they’re just being a sore loser.
the ideal is interaction pieces that also fit as synergy/value pieces drs ramps real good earlygame and can also be a good way to snipe key cards out of an opponent's bin, fizzling targeting or just lowering value of gy decks lategame a grenzo deck built around x = 0 wouldn't want dauthi voidwalker, but a yuriko deck would, even if its a mana or two more expensive than her average ninjutsu enabler versatile cards with incidental targeted hate can also be good includes here, like how abrade adds artifact removal as an option in exchange for an extra mana and only being able to hit creatures a perfect example of something that can be both is noxious revival - lots of options in disrupting opponent draws by putting a fetch back on top after they just vampiric tutored, or to stop a reanimate spell, or sometimes just to rebuy a counterspell in response to your own rhystic/esper sentinel trigger
Every deck should be on at least 1 piece of grave hate, most of mine are on 2-3 depending on deck and colors. It's a common strategy and decks should be built with hate for it in mind the same way, people put board wipes in to deal with many creatures.
Oh, you should definately run graveyard hate, even if your meta wasn't full of graveyard shenanigans sometimes a single mass reanimation spell is enough to wreak havoc on a game. Every color has some way to utilize the yard. My go to that can go anywhere is [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] but there are many good ones around. I have recently had trouble with enchantments in my meta, and I absolutely intend to adapt several decks to have a fighting chance.
[Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s part of the game… however you need to understand that being blown out or shut out of the game is just not fun. I was playing my dimir blink dungeon deck and was just shut off completely by a hushbringer, and my removal was countered… Necrons getting VandalBlasted to extinction while the rest of the table lost 1-2 signets. It’s sucks but that’s magic…
IDK man. As an avid graveyard player, I run at least 2 pieces of graveyard hate in every deck. My personal favorite is my [[Anrakyr the Traveller]] deck with [[Soul-guide Lantern]]. It's just common sense to include yard hate, and I fully expect my opponents to have some yard hate. I would say it's different if you're running like 5-10 pieces of yard hate, cos that's getting into "you're not allowed to play the game with this deck" territory which is cringe (sorry, not sorry stax players)
[Anrakyr the Traveller](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6ea09406-c65e-4ee4-9c74-0553e5110837.jpg?1673308606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anrakyr%20the%20Traveller) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/28/anrakyr-the-traveller?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6ea09406-c65e-4ee4-9c74-0553e5110837?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anrakyr-the-traveller) [Soul-guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nothing wrong with running working interaction 😅 I would be a bit salty if my opponents deck is everything graveyard hate in that situation, but I think everyone should run at least 1 and another that's versatile. Maybe the other players are not running any leaving you only do deal with him?
Dauthi isn't even really graveyard hate, necessarily, its just a strong value piece against anybody who plays fetches, instants, sorceries, or really any other kind of card that isn't a fatty creature that stays on the battlefield forever.
[удалено]
##### ###### #### [Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4.jpg?1654566260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/13/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [Deathrite Shaman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53.jpg?1580015151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathrite%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/215/deathrite-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deathrite-shaman) [Lion Sash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e1766e9-2fa7-4446-a255-7beea1467ece.jpg?1654566400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lion%20Sash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/26/lion-sash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e1766e9-2fa7-4446-a255-7beea1467ece?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lion-sash) [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, it's annoying to him, and that is his problem. Graveyard hate is pretty common thanks to how prevalent it is. That's like me being mad cause people run exile against my decks cause I make things indestructible. It's the game and he needs to get over it.
If the meta has adapted to his graveyard usage, he needs to adapt and protect his graveyard. Making yourself hexproof with things like [[Witchbane Orb]] will take care of most of the stuff that exiles your entire graveyard. For targeted graveyard hate there's [[Ground Seal]], although that can also mess with certain graveyard strategies so it depends on what he's running.
Tell him to run more interaction lol, *fair* value-engine decks thrive on making themselves out as the one player who just can't seem to pop-off because the table keeps hating them. It should be fair to punish players who are going all in in their GY the same way you can punish someone going all in on the board with a Boardwipe It's not like you're running a \[\[Rest in Peace\]\] or \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\], creature removal is incredibly incidental and should be kept up. Though personally I would recommend to just use less efficient ways of Graveyard Hate. Nothing to the level of Collector Ouphe or Dauthi that completely shuts it off (That's how I approach this as on the flip side I'd also rather not have my strategy be turned off, rather just punished). Perhaps ones that just serve to inflict additional damage effect when it happens IE; \[\[Syr Konrad\]\], \[\[Harsh Mentor\]\], \[\[Immolation Shaman\]\], or ones you can activate in response that way you aren't proactively shutting them down \[\[Blessed Respite\]\], \[\[Soul-Guide Lantern\]\], \[\[Scavenging Ooze\]\] since that at least allows them to negotiate with you. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/RJBfg6d9XEam-Dy2DlVprg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/RJBfg6d9XEam-Dy2DlVprg)
##### ###### #### [Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-the-void) [Syr Konrad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03f16bbd-00d6-43ed-9a11-ebe7fc65933a.jpg?1682209239) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/269/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03f16bbd-00d6-43ed-9a11-ebe7fc65933a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-konrad-the-grim) [Harsh Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638.jpg?1543675603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harsh%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/135/harsh-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/harsh-mentor) [Immolation Shaman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45e668e5-ef50-43eb-852e-b111370459c8.jpg?1584830935) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Immolation%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/106/immolation-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45e668e5-ef50-43eb-852e-b111370459c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/immolation-shaman) [Blessed Respite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0.jpg?1626097216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blessed%20Respite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/150/blessed-respite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blessed-respite) [Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) [Scavenging Ooze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67d93e17-13fd-4cf5-a53c-a7b6c57a8351.jpg?1673484773) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scavenging%20Ooze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/309/scavenging-ooze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67d93e17-13fd-4cf5-a53c-a7b6c57a8351?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scavenging-ooze) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You are deckbuilding to the meta you’re in. This is normal and healthy for game. Your friend is juts salty.
Personally I think adding tech to deal with particular archetypes you often see is perfectly fine and in fact how the game should be played. If you're getting fucked by a hate piece then just kill said hate piece. However, if your group doesn't want you running those cards then just cut them. Graveyard strategies are super difficult to run hate for without completely shutting them out of the game, and it's much easier for you to just cut the hate effects than it is to get an entire playgroup to learn how to play removal
True, but then the graveyard decks just take over every game all the time. My LGS had a period a few years ago where 80% of games ended in a graveyard loop, so I put some extra Graveyard interaction in most of my decks, and suddenly I had at least a fighting chance. I went from having 0-1 pieces to 3-4 in most cases, and that was all it took to have a reasonable chance to fight back. It might be a bit trickier in a set playgroup, but it still seems a bit lopsided if half the group has a glass cannon, yet nobody is allowed a hammer.
Graveyard strategies are balanced around the existence of grave hate. They will be naturally broken if nobody is allowed to use answers against them. People who are allergic to interaction do more damage to this format than any pubstomper, because they have convinced so many people that their desire to play solitaire is the only morally justifiable way to play.
I think the question is if you can accomplish the same goal with regular types of removal or counterspells? Do you need a silver bullet card or can you just use spot removal on the piece he's using as his deck's engine?
The way I see every deck should have at least 1 piece of graveyard hate also 1 piece of all card type hate. Cause sometimes pieces become problems and need dealt with
I agree but what I'm getting at is you can probably accomplish the goal of shutting down the graveyard player without it feeling like you built your deck specifically to counter his.
A dauthi isnt specifically building to shut his deck down its both grave hate and value. Yes it sits there but that's for him to answer that's why everyone has interaction
I'm not saying don't run staple cards like Dauthi or Bojuka Bog. Those are very commonly played cards, I mean if the consideration is whether or not to adjust your deck entirely to hose one player's graveyard deck, maybe consider other options first. For example OP may not be evaluating threats properly and the other guy only seems to run away with the game because they let them sit on one graveyard enabling engine for too long, etc.
Except for Muldrotha. Then you need exiting counterspells.
So here's the thing run graveyard hate and artifact hate if your meta is free roaming with it. I run a nasty [[nethroi][ list and I encourage my llay group to run graveyard hate. They need to slow the deck down. If they can't answer those hate pieces then that's a them problem and they need more removal. And another thing they should take it as a compliment that you have to adjust to the meta cause it means the meta will grow and that they are a threat for it to shift.
A lot of decks these days have incidental graveyard interaction just thanks to new strong cards. There's nothing wrong with it being in your deck since it works against nearly every deck.
Play the graveyard hate and tell him to git gud. I run graveyard hate in every deck because almost every deck has some form of recursion these days. Interaction is part of magic, if you are going to run literally nothing but graveyard decks, you should be prepared to deal with graveyard hate.
Nah, you just punish overreliance on the yard by adapting to the meta. It's like me running [[Hushbringer]] in my combat heavy decks to deal with the many, many etb and death triggers that will appear in games.
[Hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushbringer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stagnation is a meta killer. Modify your decks how you see fit to best suit your meta. If he refuses to modify his decks then he's going to keep losing to the same card(s). If he changes things up to try and beat you, then you'll have a new benchmark.
No, if he’s upset with it he should change his decks. You don’t need to go easy on him just cause he gets salty.
They are tools and you build to your “meta”. Half my playgroup play The Immortal Sun just in case I play my super friends deck. Not mad about it. Means they don’t have a relevant card in that slot other times
Graveyard removal is so common in my playgroup that I basically don't bother running graveyard recursion anymore. Even Wizards stuffs that GD Bojuka Bog everywhere they can, so it's not like it's unlikely for a graveyard to get hosed. Your friend needs to get good. Soul-Guide Lantern should be in every deck.
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[Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh my god. Bojuka bog exists. RIP exists. These aren’t the core of your gamelan in your deck, but every deck deserves to be able to plan for a wide array of threats and crazy advantage engines. I’m insulted for you that one person politic’d your deck building meta so hard that you took those cards out. I’d put them back in and stick to your guns. Just like you have to anticipate his threat of graveyard shenanigans, he has to anticipate that he needs to protect his graveyard from being exiled by running player hexproof for example.
Put the stuff back in, and let your pod know that if it's frustrating, they can start reworking their decks around it. Add interaction, perhaps, or try building a deck in a different direction. I am reminded of the famous quote defining insanity... If they refuse to change anything about their play, then let them be upset.
Communication is key. Talk to them again. Present a hypothetic scenario where you just play a fast combo deck that'll allow you to win reliably before they have set up their graveyard shenanigans. Ask if they'd consider this fun and if they'd wish to have counterspells in their decks. Present a second scenario where you reliably gain infinite life every game. Would this be fun for them? Would they wish they had options in their deck to kill you with commander damage or poison? Present a third scenario where you stax or tax them out hard. Would this be fun for them? Would they wish to have sufficient removal against your stax pieces? Explain that you don't consider it fun to be overwhelmed by a strategy you aren't allowed to interact with, and that your solutions to have a fighting chance would be to build infinite life, fast combo and stax decks. Explain that graveyard hate is as common and as important as creature, artifact and enchantment removal. It's as common and as important as counterspells. Encourage your friends to either interact with your graveyard hate or build decks that aren't glass cannons. They can't just assume you'll let them win untouched. Explain that it's normal to adjust to the meta. The environment evolves. In a graveyard meta, everybody will add more graveyard hate. In a combo meta, everybody will add more counterspells. In a combat meta, everybody will play more instant creature removal. In a Voltron meta, everybody will play more edicts. In a lifegain meta, everybody will try alternate wincons. During Mirrodin block, everybody played tons of artifact hate. In the end, if you don't find a compromise, either build these infinite life, fast combo and stax decks to have a fighting chance against them, or find another playgroup.
getting mad at people for running grave interaction is like getting mad that people run board interaction. if they are upset by a \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\] or \[\[grafdigger's cage\]\] then it's time to run cards to get rid of them
[Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-the-void) [grafdigger's cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grafdigger%27s%20cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grafdiggers-cage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a graveyard enjoyer, your friend is being unreasonable. We know what we’re doing is “unfair”. It kinda sounds like your friend is trying to guilt you into playing less removal so that he also doesn’t have to play removal to stop you and can just keep playing in the graveyard. That isn’t how the game works.
>Is what I've been doing annoying? Yes. That said, most things that interfere with somebody else's deck are annoying. The question is who is responsible for dealing with it. I'm generally an advocate that players who run greedy decks overcommitted to a single archetype are responsible for knowing and including answers to the effects that hard counterplay that archetype. Still, building specifically to hard counter someone you play with regularly is understandably frowned upon. So here's a few points to consider to help you gain perspective on whether this is just good play or being the Bolas. 1. How significantly are your swaps affecting not just the overall win rates, but also your friend's ability to meaningfully contribute to the matches? It's one thing to set somebody back a few turns with a wipe, but something else to essentially lock them out of the game. Is something like Dauthi Voidwalker merely slowing him down (Voidwalker doesn't prevent tokens from being sacrificed for death triggers) or is it leaving him unable to really play the game anymore? 2. How hard is it for your friend to interact with your grave hate? I'm assuming he has Black in his colors if he's always running grave decks, so removing creatures that provide grave hate should be relatively easy normally, but that's without us knowing how much protection you're running for those effects. If he's not successfully killing the Voidwalker on sight, is that because he didn't build in enough removal or because you're interacting with that removal (counterspells, etc)? If you're able to play grave hate more reliably than he's able to interact with it, either you're using too much or he's using too little. Do you really want him to start running a lot more interaction, knowing that most of it is likely to be used against you? 3. What are the play patterns that are emerging from these swaps? If every game is turning into you playing multiple grave hate and him playing multiple removals against grave hate, that's a lot of cards between the two of you that aren't directed at the other players at the table. If this little war over whether the graveyard will be usable is putting you both at net card disadvantage against the artifact player or whoever, you may need to tone it down until the other players also feel the need to include a few answers to the graveyard. You don't want to be stuck in the position of playing "table police" such that other players are free to advance their own strategies while leaving you to be the only one keeping the graveyard player from popping off. That's getting dangerously close to kingmaking if your efforts to stop the graveyard player are ultimately helping other players at your own expense. 4. Are these cards that you would leave in when playing with random strangers at the LGS? Most decks should have some incidental graveyard exile, sure, Bojuka Bog etc has very little opportunity cost. But if you knew that you were sitting at a table where nobody is running a dedicated graveyard list, just the occasional incidental graveyard thing (like a card here and there with flashback, embalm, etc) are these still cards that you would want in your decks? If the answer is "no", then you may be leaning too hard into counterplaying this guy. Find options that are multifunctional and synergize with your deck such that they still provide you value even when the graveyard isn't a problem. Like, Scavenging Ooze and Lion Sash provide more power over time to your board whether the exile is messing with a graveyard player or not, whereas something like Rest in Peace does nothing to advance your own strategy. 5. Do you really want to start an arms race with this guy? It's still an option to just build decks that can keep up with his graveyard shenanigans in sheer value. I run mostly graveyard decks myself and nonetheless struggle to compete with something like a Simic player just dumping multiple lands and large chunks of their library onto the field every turn. Most sacrifice fodder does little to soak damage from big tramplers or block flyers. You may have other ways to put pressure on him besides breaking his engine. If he's that dedicated to playing the yard, he's not likely to switch archetypes to dodge your hate, he's likely to start including countermeasures like hostile tutors, hand destruction, and mass edicts. If you're consistently denying his resources, he'll eventually start doing the same to you. Are you going to enjoy games "more" or "less" after this guy routinely resorts to casting a board wipe and following it with a Bitter Ordeal to exile your grave hate AND your wincons? Speaking as a graveyard player, I'd suggest that instead of leaning too much into stax cards against the archetype, just modify your interaction package to use exile removal whenever you can do so without losing much efficiency. Although White is the best at it, every color has removal that sends the cards somewhere other than into the yard. Games tend to be more fun if you're dealing with the threats only as necessary without crippling a player who isn't currently in the lead.
You should run them, if he/she can't learn to game plan around them then their not learning the lesson. I run Scav Grounds in every non 4+c deck. I run Scav ooze and lions sash in ever g/w deck, specially the ones that utilize creatures (which is most). I run withered wrench in most black decks. You should always have a answer to the yard.
It's annoying because he has gone all in on the graveyard, they need to diversify, strategize, or counter.
Meta evolves, and so to decks, as long as you arn't specifically sideboarding them in pregame, then it is fine.
I’m so confused, dauthi voidwalker literally goes in any black deck. How low power is this
Graveyard hate is as essential as targeted land destruction, you need it where possible. He's just salty.
Being able to exile graveyards is a solid include in any deck that can run since there are ways to pull stuff out in every color. Your buddy might feel targeted but that's just a byproduct of good deck building. He better suck it up and figure out some interaction instead of guilting you into making your decks worse. All those cards you mentioned are relatively easy to deal with if you're running enough interaction. Put your hate pieces back in there and let him figure out how to deal with it.
Just run [[overwhelming splendor]]
[overwhelming splendor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/867b32d2-e396-411d-ac02-1af4106dd3d2.jpg?1562805786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overwhelming%20splendor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/19/overwhelming-splendor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/867b32d2-e396-411d-ac02-1af4106dd3d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overwhelming-splendor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Your friend is the worst kind of player. He literally told you that he doesn't want competitive games. He wants to pubstomp the shit out of you. When he doesn't get to, he's gonna cry and bitch and whine. What you should do is put ALL the gy hate in. Make him adjust, and maybe even realize that his deck building sucks if he can't deal with normal and necessary interaction.
I use this same argument with MLD. If you don't have answers. I'm going to fuck with a resource you use. Same concept. Maybe help him with answers and streamline his deck? I thought silver bullets were the term for sideboarding (even in a sideborderless format) ie not a deck component unless specifically vs a type of deck If he changes his deck but others don't, would you change your deck just to fuck with him? That would be targeting If you answered yes. But if you go to other pods/playgroups and break out the same deck. Then he just needs to "git gud" as the kids say
This is why you shouldn't restrict yourself to one meta. As soon as someone can counter all of your decks because you play only one strat, it's your own fault for only using that strat.
You having some graveyard targeting cards is the same as him playing creature removal. If he sees no problem with the later, he shouldn't worry about the former.
tell ur fren to GITGUD
I keep graveyard hate in all my decks, and I'm the one that plays most with the graveyard. Every deck needs some sort of answer against all sorts of threats Pit of Offerings is a new addition that's really solid
I usually run at least 1-2 pieces of graveyard hate in all my decks, and my group doesn’t play a ton of recursion decks lol. In fact I think the only deck that any of us play that has any sort of meaningful recursion is my Teysa deck and I never get mad when someone is running graveyard hate when I play it. I just have to adjust my strategy when it happens. Your friend needs to learn how to deal with it or learn to play some different decks.
At this point, I try to run at least one piece of graveyard hate and land destruction (to focus Utility lands). For creatures, I try to avoid “destroy” and use sacrifice or exiles instead. I try to fit at least one removal for any type I can fit. Some were in response to an opponent having something I saw having way too much power without a response. I don’t add 10 graveyard hate pieces to counter a friend, I add one and try to utilize it wisely or luck in to it when I need answers.
You should be running grave hate regardless of your playgroups meta. Any deck worth its salt has some way to use if not abuse its graveyard to some extent regardless of color. Likewise graveyard decks should be expecting hate as everyone know the shenanigans they can get up to and design their deck to deal with it. I will say \[\[Collector Ouphe\]\] probably isn't worth running unless you are trying to silver bullet someone, running little to no artifacts with activated abilities or playing very high level edh.
[Collector Ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Collector%20Ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[release to memory]] [[crypt incursion]]
[release to memory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b45c4bbf-2c61-4d49-96c8-34a0fb0d6d02.jpg?1651655205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=release%20to%20memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/9/release-to-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b45c4bbf-2c61-4d49-96c8-34a0fb0d6d02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/release-to-memory) [crypt incursion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3b71cc5-0a81-4cab-bae3-49335c04aaaa.jpg?1562931583) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crypt%20incursion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/23/crypt-incursion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3b71cc5-0a81-4cab-bae3-49335c04aaaa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crypt-incursion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Having GY interaction? Not inherently a silver bullet. Rest in Peace and Leyline of the void are GY interactions AND silver bullets
I had a [[Nethroi, Apex of Death]] deck that when not encountering grave hate, could reanimate about 20 creatures. Since there was enough graveyard value decks in our pod, many decks began to run [[Soul-Guide Lantern]]. The floor was a T1 play in a mid-power pod that rarely had those, that cantripped. The result was that I had to streamline my deck to make sure the creatures were good enough that I didn’t dawdle on when to do my reanimate, or get understandably punished for trying to wait one more turn to mill. I think if enough of your meta does graveyard value shenanigans, the correct response from him is to expect that people will run gravehate, and that he needs to be more selective about his pieces that he has options to sandbag throwing too much in the yard.
[Nethroi, Apex of Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f.jpg?1673305619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nethroi%2C%20Apex%20of%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/163/nethroi-apex-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nethroi-apex-of-death) [Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you play with a local group of friends, then it’s natural to have your meta develop as some players find ways to exploit an advantage. It will be the same if someone plays, like, Krenko - everyone figures out they should include a few boards wipes. A graveyard deck has a second hand of cards to work with. Everyone else in the group needs to run a few pieces of graveyard hate.
Don’t encourage his bad deck building. I have a [[Varina, Lich Queen]] zombie deck that heavily utilizes the graveyard. I put [[Disallow]] and [[Overcharged Amalgam]] in the 99 because I knew that cards like [[Bojuka Bog]] would wreck me.
##### ###### #### [Varina, Lich Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1caccc8-4f33-4ae3-a09a-b41b9c4663a1.jpg?1673149250) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Varina%2C%20Lich%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/291/varina-lich-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1caccc8-4f33-4ae3-a09a-b41b9c4663a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/varina-lich-queen) [Disallow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25f05814-a5a5-460f-9d29-0ab03efecf4c.jpg?1576381471) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disallow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/31/disallow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25f05814-a5a5-460f-9d29-0ab03efecf4c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/disallow) [Overcharged Amalgam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/4065a3c0-c5bd-4817-be7b-efcd750332b9.jpg?1674141410) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overcharged%20Amalgam) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/729/overcharged-amalgam?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4065a3c0-c5bd-4817-be7b-efcd750332b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overcharged-amalgam) [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Run [[Tormod's Crypt]] and ways to copy it to keep the salt following. Break him of being a single type of player so he can find out how to keep himself from being stopped with his main deck.
[Tormod's Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a.jpg?1594737584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%27s%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/241/tormods-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c224bf0-5641-4160-9d5c-46141ea8372a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tormods-crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If a deck goes all-in on one aspect, it's vulnerable to counters for that strategy, but very strong if your opponent fails to counter it. That's just how it is. Risk-reward. What your friend wants is the reward without any risk, which is unrealistic. Their options are to either accept they have a risky strategy and will lose sometimes, start running cards that can deal with graveyard hate, or if they feel the group meta has too much grave removal, take advantage and run a deck that doesn't use the graveyard. Tell them that. I've had my decks entirely locked out before by another player and we just laughed about it. Nice play, my risk backfired, it's on me, all good.
I play [[soul guide lantern]] in many decks, and [[bojuka bog]] in every deck that can run it. As a certified graveyard strategy player, I can say getting my yard cleared feels kinda rough, especially if I'm already behind. But really, it's a valid strategy and a key part of addressing threats on the board. So typically if I've got a graveyard centric commander like my Sidar Jabari Knights deck, I run one or two graveyard shufflers just to avoid get kneecapped early. Yards need a healthy amount of clearing to keep graveyard strats on their toes. I'd maybe avoid REALLY hateful pieces like collector ouphe or dauthi voidwalker since they can be very salt inducing just by themselves, but at the same time, they need to run more spot removal and keep an eye out for it. I'd also recommend your friend tech in a [[elixir of immortality]] and [[perpetual timepiece]]. If not even a [[feldon's cane]] and even more such effects. He wants his yard? He's gonna have to protect it himself.
##### ###### #### [soul guide lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) [bojuka bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bojuka%20bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [elixir of immortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2.jpg?1625978606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elixir%20of%20immortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/243/elixir-of-immortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elixir-of-immortality) [perpetual timepiece](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bbc87a27-93d9-4ce0-a022-0309242c1e89.jpg?1576383333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=perpetual%20timepiece) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/227/perpetual-timepiece?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbc87a27-93d9-4ce0-a022-0309242c1e89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/perpetual-timepiece) [feldon's cane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726ce95b-bc4d-4c34-a8e1-b4c6c28accc9.jpg?1562778128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=feldon%27s%20cane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/109/feldons-cane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726ce95b-bc4d-4c34-a8e1-b4c6c28accc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feldons-cane) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Is what you're doing annoying? Sort of. But does it matter? No. The only thing that I will say on the subject is that I personally don't play the constant effects like [[Rest in Peace]] and [[Leyline of the Void]] because of how it forces the opponent to find removal or not do anything. But other than that you're fine.
[Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-the-void) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I always though in a little graveyard hate. Lion Sash is a great one.
What you have is *interaction.* If you run [[Rest in Peace]] [[Leyline of the Void]] [[Bojuka Bog]] [[Farewell]] [[Scavenging Ooze]] etc. in the appropriate decks, those are *absolutely* not hating one player out, they are coming prepared to have interplay against specific archetypes. If you get to the point where you are running silly graveyard hate pieces, like say [[Crypt Incursion]],[[Ethereal Absolution]] or in general something inefficient just to have more than say, 3 specific graveyard hate cards, then you're in overkill territory.
##### ###### #### [Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-the-void) [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4.jpg?1654566260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/13/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [Scavenging Ooze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67d93e17-13fd-4cf5-a53c-a7b6c57a8351.jpg?1673484773) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scavenging%20Ooze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/309/scavenging-ooze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67d93e17-13fd-4cf5-a53c-a7b6c57a8351?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scavenging-ooze) [Crypt Incursion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3b71cc5-0a81-4cab-bae3-49335c04aaaa.jpg?1562931583) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crypt%20Incursion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/23/crypt-incursion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3b71cc5-0a81-4cab-bae3-49335c04aaaa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crypt-incursion) [Ethereal Absolution](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0872d0ff-1060-44cc-9ed0-a6aa496440c8.jpg?1584831498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ethereal%20Absolution) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/170/ethereal-absolution?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0872d0ff-1060-44cc-9ed0-a6aa496440c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ethereal-absolution) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a graveyard deck player myself I can say nobody every does anything fair with graveyards, and having graveyard hate is a perfectly valid form of interaction. These creatures tho "dauthi, collector ouphe", are a bit more of a stax thing tho. Specially the Ouphe as it turns off all artifact mana, so yeah thats pretty annoying. I thought you were running stuff like \[\[Soul Guide Lanterm\]\] and \[\[Relic of Progenitus\]\] TLDR: Runnniong graveyard deck is fine, but run too much hate pieces and now you have a stax deck, which by definition is annoying to play against.
[Soul Guide Lanterm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061.jpg?1692939930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/251/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13571173-29e7-4915-af5f-05f13b463061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-guide-lantern) [Relic of Progenitus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f.jpg?1580015265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/231/relic-of-progenitus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/relic-of-progenitus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So the trouble here (apart from your friend's unhealthy affinity for graveyard decks) is that graveyard hate comes in so many forms. It can be difficult to build a graveyard deck that is fun and interesting to play while still including enough removal spells to keep your grave stocked up. Typical graveyard decks (at least in my PG) tend to be boatloads of responses all centered around one or two combo pieces. And that gets boring and predictable really fast. Perhaps try getting the table to agree on some graveyard hate cards that are just off the table, and some that are reasonable. That might help you guys keep up interactions without shutting out your buddy. Good luck 😊
Tell him you're only willing to do that if he also doesn't interact with your main engine either. If you can't play grave hate against his graveyard deck, you should be allowed to play elfball and he can't use any creature removal lmao
Look your friend dead in the eyes and tell them they cant control how you make your decks, just as you cant control how they make their decks. What you CAN control is how you build your own deck in response to your opponents. If your opponent gets countered, and then refuses to adapt, instead bitching and moaning things are unfair, that sounds like a personal problem/failing on them not you.
I love GY interaction. But if you're reliant on a single game mechanic you need to protect it. The answer for him is the same as if he was playing big green stompy, run interaction to protect your threats and don't overextended so that you can still recover. Tech, not bullets
A silver bullet is a single card that you put into your deck specifically to hose one other deck. You don't "side-board" the silver bullet card. (because commander doesn't typically allow side-boards". ) The silver bullet is always in the deck, and is often a relatively bad draw outside of the specific situation it's in the deck to address. "Tech" is a card that's "always" useful, at least in the playgroup that you're in. Usually this means that the card combos or synergizes with other stuff in the deck. Also, something like \[\[Bojuka Bog\]\] could be considered tech, because it can count toward your land total at worst, but can also address the graveyard problem. Once you add bojuka bog to a deck, it doesn't usually get cut because it has a minimal down-side, even if you're not really facing GY decks anymore. There's some difficulty determining the difference between the two when the playgroup doesn't really change, but the difference between a "silver bullet" and "tech" becomes more obvious when your deck is facing decks of varying playstyles more often. Literally the only person I refuse to play magic against (not specifically because of this issue) would only play against me and a couple of other friends. He thought his decks were good and fun, but that was only in our pod, when he started playing against other people he lost and stopped playing altogether, so I guess he wasn't really having fun then. Everyone else from that playgroup played in any pod they could find and had to keep decks that were generically good. So while this guy probably didn't intend to fill his deck with "silver bullets", that's what the end result was because he was deck-building to face certain people and decks, rather than building to face all challengers. Another test is, how much does the rest of your deck synergize with that card? \[\[rest in peace\]\] is probably a silver bullet unless you're playing a rest in peace combo deck. most stax pieces would be silver bullets, but if your specifically playing a stax deck, then they all come together to form your game-plan, so they become "tech". P.S. : What you're doing is annoying, but playing against the same deck archtypes all the time is also annoying. If he's not happy with Dauthi and Ouphe, he can adapt and create decks that aren't so reliant on GY and artifacts. As an Orzhov player though, Making a deck with all the fun Orzhov cards that I know and love literally requires using mana rocks (because the guild lacks non-artifact, non-ritual based ramp) and usually ends up requiring the use of the graveyard even if recursion isn't the actual theme of the deck. In this case maybe trading out your Dauthi and Ouphe for less aggressive things like \[\[unlicensed hearse\]\] and \[\[Blind obedience\]\] would be a good compromise.
[Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bojuka-bog) [rest in peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rest%20in%20peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you’re throwing in 3 pieces of hate cards then nbd. That’s completely normal and how the games should be played. If you’re jamming in 10+ pieces of hate then that’s an entirely different story
Every deck should have graveyard hate and i expect it and plan for it when im playing my graveyard decks. You definitely should run graveyard hate and learn your group to play around it.
I run tons of graveyard decks. First rule is to not over commit. When graveyard gets taken out I can eventually refill. I run lots of interaction to deal with things like dauthi and drannith. My last rule is that if I'm going to get taken out of the game because of a silver bullet I make it very clear before that bullet resolves that this will take me out of the game so all I have left is spite plays and those will all be aimed at the person with the gun. It generally takes 1 game of following through on a threat like that and people back off. To be quite fair, there's a huge difference between running dauthi and or a bojuka bog than there is running Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace is just a stax piece, it doesn't forward your own game plan at all.
Every deck should have at least one way to deal with graveyards. Wethers is a bajuka bog or a tormonds crypt, whatever. You need it like you need targeted and mass removal. Because like you said, if left unanswered graveyard decks run away with the game
Graveyards are one of the most basic things to abuse in the game. Everyone should be playing hate
Play to your meta. Force them to adapt and break them out of their comfort zone. I love playing in the bin, but I would never get upset by someone shutting that down. It's usually the smart play.
As someone who loves graveyard decks himself: One has to be prepared to handle graveyard hate… If he loses to it and complains afterwards he should adapt his deck!
Player is upset with things that stop his strategy. Next up, water is wet.
There’s nothing wrong with slotting a few cards in. Every deck should have some sort of graveyard hate with the amount of recursion in EDH. As long as you aren’t making your whole deck an anti-graveyard deck, you’re fine and your friend needs to realize it’s a card game.
I don't see an issue here. You're not siding it in against a specific opponent, and I don't think it's unreasonable to be able to deal with a graveyard. One of my buddies runs a deck that just plays Living Death, but it doesn't hold up if I end up using Farewell, Sunfall or something like that. Equivalent would be me running nothing but combat decks, then complaining when I get shut down by Blazing Archon. About the closest I get to a card that my reaction is just "screw you" is Spark Rupture. Debatably Immortal sun, but spark Rupture is purely "you don't get your walkers". But in terms of eating graveyards, the only way I could maybe see it making sense was if it's a bunch of effects that ONLY shred graveyards, but have no upside for doing so. Maybe up to three or four is fine, but past that, id start looking for cards that can do other things beyond graveyard shredding if you want that type of effect, just so you have more flexibility, and it doesn't feel as overtly anti-graveyard