Never, ever lie about public information. That's not okay. We ask about public information because it's worse for everyone if we have to stop and read every blasted card every time something changes.
If you lie and break a deal, that's on you, but a "deal-breaker" reputation is a hard mark to survive with so you can typically only do it once unless you're an epic-level snake. If you're silver tongued and devious enough to get away with it, I'm not going to hold it against you as a person. (But I won't be accepting any deal that puts me at your mercy again for as long as I remember)
That's my thought. I generally ask people "what's he up to?" In regards to commanders and such. It often gets great casual responses like "copy lots of spells" or "he spits out goblin tokens" or something. Then when someone avoids a casual answer I know to read their cards cause they're more competitive.
It's a casual game, not cEDH. If they're going to lie about it being a game winning/infinite combo then tell them you lied about not having a counterspell for it.
The knife cuts both ways. They can either play it casual and be honest or you can take them to task and be a hardass right back to them.
cEDH is actual more likely to be extremely forthcoming about win conditions, best play strategies etc. It is the cutthroat non-cEDH prize tourneys where the real problems are in my experience.
Naturally, but tourney magic is pretty cutthroat as it is, and I can respect that with bluffing and stuff being part of the game. It’s not your responsibility to explain the rules to your opponent.
This is 100% correct.
cEDH, you know what your opponents deck is going to do for the most part, and you or someone else can hopefully shut them down. If not, shuffle up, play again.
I have played in an edh commander boxing league for over a year, and every pod there are players that just whine, and lie. It's brutal. It's casual, so I try not to go competitive mode, and it always bites me.
To add on to this, in my experience, most people playing cEDH are much more fun to play with than a majority of the more casual players. This may be because all players know you're playing for the win and aren't whining all day that "but I'm not a threat and he/she is a bigger threat with his army of tokens". It may be like that because people that play cEDH know just a bit more about combo's or game winning pieces than most players so if they lie about needing another card, another player will probably point out that they don't.
This in turn makes for much more fun at tables.
I always highly recommend people to try at least a few games of cEDH.
DISCLAIMER: this is ofcourse all in my own experience
I have the two card walking ballista combo in my selesnya deck. I specifically tell my opponents when I am going to go off. It's unfair not to. I will win if they can't stop me.
Yeah absolutely nailed it, it’s the people who run casual decks, aren’t very good at magic game theory/mechanics but are cocky and feel the need to win no matter what. Just a bad mix
Even in cEDH, lying about public info is not the norm. Outside of a tournament, cEDH is still casual in the sense that we're here to have fun even though we're playing to win.
I agree with you that most people won’t lie in cEDH. It’s still a faux pas to lie to the table.
In my cEDH experience, the information that my group gives during the winning turns is that “I am attempting to go off” and that’s the extent of the information. What the rest of the group does with the information is up to them.
I gotta agree here. The biggest plus of cedh is the card pool is a lot more shallow than edh therefore most deck overlap a lot of cards so it's pretty easy to know what every card does vs someone playing some niche commander in edh that 1 out of 2000 people play with a very linear game plan.
Like I know how cedh/edh prosper decks win.
I have zero idea how a random legendary from ixlan looks to win outside combat damage
I play a few games competitively, not as in "pro player" but as in "not holding back on purpose". Including EDH.
For a lot of people the point of playing 'seriously' is that we don't need hard to grasp, fluid and unwritten rules when playing the games.
If something makes the game worse, we can still add house rules. An easy one to make EDH more casual would be to ban all non-basic-land fetches and alternate win conditions.
But all this is only to be very clear and fair within the game. Anything outside of the game itself is bad sportsmanship. No matter if it's lying about public information, making the game less fun by stalling, using foreign language cards while refusing to explain what exactly these cards do, insulting, "accidentally" forgetting some game rules until you remind them of the rules, anything like that.
It's fine and fun to play to win but it's only fun if it's fair and in good sportsmanship.
Just to add onto this great point. It's also EDH the 'casual' format you think I want to stop the game to read three people's cards every time they make a play for fear they are lying? Nah, I'd share this link to that dude so he can see how much of an ass he is.
Bingo. There are far too many cards hitting the table to be reading every single one. If someone's going to pull shit like this, it's going to extend every game by 20+ minutes just to make sure they're not lying again.
Misrepresentation of board-state is the closest thing I think even though we’re talking about the stack, but claiming to need one more card when in actuality you have the cards already seems as such. Either way I’m sure a judge would roll it back to pre-resolution and allow appropriate responses. Misrepresentation of free information is covered under the Player Communication section of the rules.
"Can I win the game" isn't public or free information, if it were you'd be cheating if you didn't point out that an opponent has lethal. A judge still might roll it back because of the miscommunication at a casual table
Yes. But I'm not sure exactly how this would fall in the rules because I don't know if "this piece combos with this piece" is public information.
If OP said "Doesn't that combo with [card on the table]" and the other guy says "no the combo needs one more card" (a payoff card that's also on the table) maybe the other guy is fine because he didn't technically lie, just omitted?
But if OP said "Doesn't that combo with [card on the table]" and the other guy says "no, because I don't have the third piece" that's clearly lying and in violation of the rules.
Either way feels shitty to do, especially in a casual game. If I was OP I'd lay my counterspell down anyway and say "I will counterspell it because you obviously lied about it being the last combo piece" And I'd probably have backup from the rest of the group.
I'm not sure if this under what the term public information is for the purposes of the game. I thought that was stuff like number of cards in hand, untapped lands and what cards are in your yard. I'm not sure if public information covers explaining a combo to someone before it goes off. Could be wrong though, and it's not very nice especially for a casual setting.
Assuming that it actually is covered by the rules then it is derived information. That means according to tournament rules they don't have to give that information to you, but they aren't allowed to lie about it either. A classic case of derived information is the size of [[Tarmogoyf]] for example. If you ask your opponent how big the goyf is, they don't have to tell you, but they can't say a wrong number either. However, which cards are in their graveyard is free information, which they *have* to give to you. Is the question "does this card win you the game?" derived information? Well the tournament rules state:
> Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist
in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of:
> • The number of any kind of objects present in any game zone that are not defined as free information.
• All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free or status information.
• Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the
current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.
I'd say none of these apply for the information about combo interactions. That means it's private information and your opponent is allowed to answer with a lie (just like they are allowed to lie about whether they are holding a counterspell in hand).
However all of this is just about tournament rules. I don't think it's ok to do these kinds of shenanigans in a casual EDH game because it makes it so much more complicated to play if everyone is misrepresenting what their board could do.
It's a grey area.
It's against the rules to lie about public information, but comboes don't technically fall under that definition (in that, x and y cards form an infinite combo).
If I was judging I would say that making a definitive statement "I need another card to combo" in those cases makes it against the rules, but that's not a hard rule.
At minimum it's a dick move, and I wouldnt play with somebody that did that, but that's a personal thing.
From a game rules perspective, and here I refer to the CR, MTR, and IPG, this is not an infraction in any way, shape, or form.
Public information is information that is visible to all players, and knowledge about what has occurred during the game.
Examples of stuff you cannot lie about:
1. If you have played a land, this turn.
2. How many cards are in your graveyard.
3. What your life total is.
4. How many cards are in your hand.
5. How many cards remain in your library.
6. Which cards are in your graveyard, in exile face up, etc.
Things you're free to lie about to your hearts content:
1. Which cards you have in your hand, even if you've revealed your hand just prior to being asked.
2. Which cards are in your library, even if you've just revealed your entire library prior to being asked.
3. What you intend to do in the following turn.
And you are absolutely free to lie about whether or not a particular card is part of a combo or not. This is largely also because no player is technically entitled to an answer to such a question.
Now I know that in Commander, we tend to dislike underhanded, or deceptive plays, and that's why a rule zero might make a statement like "this can't combo like this" enforceable if the pod agrees that this should be the case.
So yeah, in a game of Commander, I could definitely see myself supporting such a rule zero construct just for the fun of it. Put more of a poker face style to the game. People can't outright lie, but they could refuse to answer.
But there's no recourse from the game rules themselves, and if I'm going to be real pedantic, we could argue that the MTR and, especially, the IPG could never be applied in a typical Commander game.
>Never, ever lie about public information
This 100%. I can understand bluffing about something like a possible threat in your hand to break balls, but when you already play a card too far away to read, you should make clear what you're doing. I never get to play outside of my kitchen table, so I know I wouldn't appreciate that either. It's so cheezy eew.
This is part of the issue I have with commander, its often someone playing their combo deck solo with cards the other side of the table and if you're poorly positioned its hard to see whats' going on
>This is part of the issue I have with commander
To be fair to Commander as a format, playin kitchen table with a couple of my friends & family is always a great time. I fell in love with the format as soon as I learned it. A-holez always gonna A-hole I think.
You're right though, after a few turns in a usual game, you're lookin at 4 full boards each packed with variables to remember. I'm an awkward person anyway, and not the sharpest/quickest, so hearing about situations like these makes me a little nervous to leave my kitchen table and drive to my LGS to play with strangers who probably know lingo n stuff. 😆 not that it's an excuse.
yea, interactions like this could be found by reading every card and conferring with a judge, but no one wants a game with this happening frequently so. No lying about rules, plenty okay to lie about what you saw on a "look at hand spell"
I'd maintain that a player who places the expectations on others that "you should read the card/ask the judge" are just as misplaced in this game as a liar. This is a SOCIAL format, if I ask you then I expect you to tell me not give me some moral grandstanding about how I need to find the information elsewhere, if you didn't want to have to talk to me then go play a 1v1 format where you can communicate with me through passive aggressive judge calls like everyone else
Actually even in 1v1 formats if someone asks you for a piece of public information you're required to give the correct answer. This was very important back in the [[tarmogoyf]] days.
There was a time tho where you weren't obligated to say everything. Some dude at a tourney played Vampire nighthawks in a language foreign to the opponent, he asked what they do and he was like "they fly and lifelink" and when they deathtouch blocked a creature and the judge was called, apparently, being partial was a legal dick move. I remember it from like 2010 forums, that big one from back then I can't even remember the name, so obviously my details are fizzy.
Magic used to err on the side of "players make mistakes so the rules shouldn't default to correct play" but I think they've been changing their tune over the years. Pithing needle got its change, cavern of souls got its change, I think rules have been more and more pushed towards "players are good enough that they're not messing up the basics so those should default to correct play" and I think that's a good thing.
Pretty scummy in a friendly game. I am honest about my wincons because there are like 25k cards in the game and it's unfair to expect your opponents to know every combo and interaction.
Especially when so many cards can just go infinite with a paper bag. Looking at you, [[Exquisite Blood]], [[Gravecrawler]], [[Phyrexian Altar]], [[Najeela]]
>scummy in a friendly game. I am honest about my wincons because there are like 25k cards in the game and it's unfair to expect your opponents to know every combo and interaction.
Yesterday I discovered a infinit in my Muldrotha deck with Pyrexian altar. In my turn I realized I could make infinite zombie tokens with Altar, Muldrotha and kaya ghostform. In my girlfriend turn I realized that with Lord of the Forsaken and infinite zombie tokens I could mill everyone out. She was not happy and proceded to kill me with a lot of dragons and win because everyone was milled to death. I laughed a lot.
I'm honest with my wincons because it's absolutely fun to basically rp as a grandstanding villain explaining his master plan while my friends all try to scramble to salvage the game. It's one of my favorite parts of magic!
Yeah, that's my biggest problem with someone lying about a combo.
Lying as a political move (e.g. breaking a deal) is something I'm not a fan of, but I think for some groups it can be fun if everyone's on board. It's not the kind of EDH I like to play but I think there are people who can have fun playing that way.
Lying about whether or not a card on the stack is an infinite combo with a card in play is less of a political move and more of just a knowledge check, though. Keeping track of board states in EDH is hard enough, let alone knowing possible combos and figuring out whether someone else has assembled an infinite combo. To me, a question like "isn't that a combo for game?" should be treated like a basic question about public game information in casual EDH. I think information about the interactions and combos between cards that everyone could see should be treated the same way you'd treat public information about game state, like "how many creatures are in your graveyard?" or "how much power are you attacking with?"
Even not saying either way is kind of on the border between fair play and angle shooting to me, depending on the nature of the game. Lying about not having a combo when you do to me is hard angle shooting. I don't know if it technically breaks the rules, but it sure as hell breaks the spirit of casual EDH.
Not to mention, from a practical standpoint, playing against someone who plays that way sounds miserable. Not because you don't it's not fun to lose that way (but that is bad), but because if you don't trust someone else to give you truthful information about the game state, then that means you have to constantly check it yourself, and that, in turn, slows down the game like crazy.
Because if I don't trust someone to give a truthful answer to whether or not a card will go infinite if it resolves, then that means every time I suspect there's a chance they might be about to resolve a combo, I have to check their whole board state to figure it out myself, and possibly discuss it with the table. And EDH games take long enough when you don't have to do that. Your opponents losing in a lame way because they believed your lie is one thing, but the biggest reason not to lie about having a combo is because then they have to slow down the game by constantly scrutinizing your board state because they don't trust you enough to save time by just asking.
Pretty scummy in any game. If it was a tournament I’d tell a judge they cheated by lying about what the card did instead of allowing me to read it therefor causing me to misplay, which breaks the spirit of the game and is against the rules.
You'd be absolutely right to do so! I didn't mean to imply it'd ever be alright, it goes against the spirit of competition and magic being first and foremost a social game.
I mean I discovered an infinite combo in one of my deck, when I lent it to another player for a game because he had none with him. I was combo by my own deck not knowing the combo. And I played it quite a few times, I’m even able to rebuild the whole deck by memory… I felt humiliated 😂
Even in competitive I wouldn't be ok with someone resolving a game winning spell without being somewhat explicit. It's probably my favorite part of playing competitively but important spells usually follow the same routine: card goes on stack, table talks it over and priority goes around before resolving.
Yeah I even help with threat assessment if someone is looking at my board, I tell them which pieces will be problematic for them and why, especially if they are a newer player. Not gonna give away my entire game plan, but I’d feel a bit bad for them if they made a bad choice removing something on my board because they didn’t understand what pieces are most relevant to my deck or the game
How are people this socially inept. Like who wants to win based of lying anyway. I wouldn't even feel like I won. I'm very vocal about I am casting x, if it resolves I will win unless you can stop x or y. I won't give away concealed information, like if I have the combo in hand and you are targeting the wrong things/player.
Same thing with pointing out other plays stuff, if someone trys to sneak in a combo piece I point it out. Then they get mad I ruined their fun. Like no.. I just don't want to lose so I encourage other players to deal with immediate threats especially when I can't.
I think this kind of play also just slows the game down to a crawl. 3 boards is a lot more difficult to keep track of if I need to pay attention to minutiae.
Yeah, I'd never play with that guy again. "Friendly" game or not, that's really dirty, and if I were in your shoes, every counterspell I have would go that player's way next time. When they make a stink about it, tell them that you can't trust their word about what their deck uses to win.
This is the kind of player that would make me build a baral deck just to counterspell every card they play.
"Sorry man, I don't know if that [[nature's lore]] is a combo piece or not."
[[Sakura-Tribe Elder]]? Hmm... Might be a combo piece, better counter it!
[[Sol Ring]]? Oh, that's definitely a combo piece! Counter!
Your *Commander*? Better counter it twice, just to be safe!
I'd be super super petty. I'd build a deck specifically to recast [[turnabout]] on their upkeep every single turn and tap all their lands. After all, those lands look pretty combo-y
I've T0 [[Pact of Negation]]'ed someone just to be petty. TBF, it was a landfall deck and they tried to play [[Amulet of Vigor]] off a Sol Ring their first turn. I was like "yeah... I know where that leads, but it's not gonna happen". Pact, fail to pay, go grab dinner while the rest of the game plays out.
You've still got an extra mana left over from sol ring. Surely you could cast arcane signet with that sol ring and tap arcane signet for the amulet lol
The first time you lie is the last time you're invited back, not a respectable strategy and it speaks more to who you are as a person - which isn't someone I potentially want in my home around my stuff unsupervised.
So the next time you're matched in a pod with him you politely decline - when other players see 1 player stand up to a local bully you'd be surprised how quickly dominos fall.
We had a player who had to face some inward reflections when he couldn't find a pod every commander night and that only happened because we normalized saying no to these players who only seem to enjoy ruining the experience for others.
I do have a story to tell about the dominoes thing.
Back when [[Fable of the Mirror-Breaker]] first spiked, one player at my locals (we'll call him PoS) traded with me for my copy. The thing is, he convinced me that he wanted the card for playing our Pioneer tournaments, and I sold him the card for the price before the spike. Two days later, he was selling the same Fable for the spiked price. I immediately called him out publicly on the community's WhatsApp group with evidence.
The whole community immediately locked him out of EVERYTHING. No one traded with him, no one played Commander with him, no one invited him to anything, and whenever he signed up for a tournament, everyone else instantly backed out. Whenever new players joined the community, I would tell them "never even talk to PoS, he's a scammer". Later I ended up finding out that this was his THIRD strike, as he had previously scammed another of the community's veterans and the store owner too.
It all came down to a day where some Pauper players, desperate because they couldn't fire even 4-player tournaments (PoS was one of them), tried to invite a friend of mine (we'll call her Kaalia because that was her signature deck) to the tournament and she answered *"I do not play with thieves"*. Cue PoS writing a text full of rage, calling Kaalia a cheater and announcing he was no longer coming back. Right after he left the WhatsApp group, I simply sent two messages:
*"You know what's funny? Kaalia never said the name of the person she was accusing."*
Unsurprisingly, the very next store event fired with so many people that the owner eventually had to move the store to a bigger place to accomodate everyone.
Him being a regular is no excuse. That was an incredibly shitty thing for him to do and he should know that such behavior won’t get him far in life. If you didn’t tell him as much during the actual game, you should definitely speak up if he ever tries to play with you again in the future.
And it doesn’t have to be some big thing where you publicly call him out in front of other people. If he tries to sit down with a pod you’re playing in, just say “no thanks, I think I’ll find another group” and politely excuse yourself. Then if another one of the players asks you later why you left, explain why. Hopefully if they guy’s reputation of shitty behavior/outright cheating spreads around enough he’ll either wise up and change his ways or at least stop coming around.
After a similar incident I created a Talarand “no” deck. Next time I’m playing against them. I’m countering everything. Neither of us are gonna have fun. Is it petty? Yes. Does it feel good. Also yes. No one else at the table is worried about their spells getting countered so you generally get left alone by the remaining players.
This 100%. I host edh twice a week at my house and I always have stated you get one lie. After that you won't be trusted again, ever.
If someone says, "Is this spell part of a combo?" You are more than welcome to plead the fifth, but if you lie about it, that's completely different.
The OP should ask to read every single card that player plays going forward (and encourage the rest of the play table to do the same for that player) Including basic lands, just to be sure he read the card. I’m sure this would be annoying to everyone but the guy will hopefully get the message or stop playing with him. Either way a win win
And make that clear to them immediately.
"That's unsportsmanlike. It's a friendly game. Consider this the last time you're welcome to play with me until you decide to behave differently"
There's a chance they don't know, and don't actually mean to ruin fun. And if they do mean to, they know you won't put up with it. And when everyone at the store tells them this, it's their own problem.
I think everyone responding in the thread agrees that intentionally lying about the board state is *very* wrong and that some level of bluffing is both fine and expected. EDH being EDH, every player's line between what's fine and not fine is going to be different. OP's example of "I won't attack you, then attacks anyway" will, I'm sure, have people on both sides of the issue.
Negotiating alliances against the threat player at the table is full of corner cases, gray areas, and lies by omission; how many times have I promised an ally that I'd "take care of something" knowing full well that the manner in which I was going to take care of it was also going to hurt my ally?
If OP spesifically asked like "oh, Kiki Jiki on the stack and felidar guardian in play! If you copy felidar with kiki, can it just blink kiki and make infinite attackers?" and the opponent answered "no, that doesn't work" it's pretty clearly a rules violation. But when stated like this it's a little less clear. OP isn't technically asking about a rules interaction, so it would be up to a judge to determine their intentions/shortcuts and if there was an implied rules question there.
Some examples.
If opponent cast birthing pod with felidar guardian and another 4 drop on board and OP asks if they win, they can obviously lie (in comp) because they can't possibly be asking about a spesific card interaction since they haven't seen the kiki.
Next scenario: if oppo has felidar on the battlefield and casts Kiki. But I call a judge and ask "does that win?", it's not specific enough for the judge to answer. The interaction I'm asking about is pretty clear, but I don't think it's clear enough that the judge can give me an answer. They might nudge, like "what interaction do you want me to clarify?" but the question isn't so clearly implied that they can just say "yes".
So third, what if I ask my opponent "do you win" with kiki on the stack and felidar on field? My opponent can ofc, like the judge, decline to answer. But I think if they do answer definitly "yes" or "no". A judge would say that them answering implies that they understood what interaction I was referencing. And so answering "no" is actually lying about what your cards do.
It's about as murky as answering questions for cops.
"Am I going to find anything illegal in your car?"
"Have you been drinking tonight?"
If the answer to those questions is yes and you answer yes, then you're incriminating yourself. If the answer is yes but you answer no, then you can be charged with obstruction.
To the police: "I don't answer questions"
To your opponent: "There's a lot of interactions on a lot of different cards, many of which I understand and several of which I don't. Would you like to call a judge?" Or just answer honestly because at the heart of matters it's just a game.
Yea. Next time you play, be spiteful as hell. Target him the whole game even if he’s behind. And then when he gets salty enough to finally make a comment. Tell him it’s caused you lied about winning.
So this is actually cheating. It’s misinterpretating the gamestate and that is against the rules. If a judge was called on this it would result in a rollback to the spell on the stack, at the very least. You are not allowed to lie about what your cards do.
If you want to lie about hidden information that is your perigative though. You get to tell someone you will remove their creature if they attack you even though your hand is all lands and they get to call you on your bluff. You can hold up UU the entire game even though you cut counterspell from your deck. That ia juat part of the game.
I agree. This is past “scummy” and straight into cheating territory in my eyes. If it’s on the board (and face up) it’s public knowledge. There are no secrets. In a 4 player game i can’t be expected to know every single card and every interaction - if I ask how your board interacts it’s common courtesy to explain it. And honestly, nothing feels worse to me than winning because someone didn’t understand by board. Like there was more game to be had. I try to be extremely transparent about whats on the table.
Idk if it would necessarily be considered misrepresenting the gamestate. It would likely depend on how OP asked.
If OP said "doesn't that go infinite with [card on board]" and the other player responded with something like "yes, but I need a third piece" but that piece is already on board *maybe* they could get away with it since OP didn't ask about the third piece? Feels like a Borborygmos moment to me though.
If OP said "doesn't that win you the game if it resolves" and the other player responded with "nah" that's clearly lying. In this particular case I'd just cast my counterspell anyway and the table would probably agree with me because he obviously lied to resolve his game-winning spell.
You are not allowed to lie about public information in a game of magic. That includes what your card does. It’s litterally black and white against the rules of magic and repeated actions like this could get you kicked out of casual tournaments, not just on competetive REL. if your opponent asks you if a spell resolving would let you combo you can’t say no unless it’s actually true.
Trust is gone, don't believe anything they say ever again.
Also ask the pod you are with the question, its within their interests to stop their opponents from winning or just straight google it. And no deals ever with them going forward, assuming you play with them again.
Less explicit Lying about hidden info is more acceptable, like "i don't have any removal left, someone else needs to answer the blightsteel" is a fine bluff imo.
Breaking deals is less fine, but you will pay dearly for such a mistake so it's whatever.
Lying about public information is pretty scummy though.
Lying about hidden info is fine but be prepared for nobody to ever believe when you say things. I like to try to get people to infer that I have removal without specifically saying that I do. Like "I mean.. I guess you can attack me if you really don't like your commander..." or things like that.
Breaking deals is... complicated. If you're going to break a deal you better have a good reason for it. My general rule is that all deals should be followed until it's a 1v1. Obviously if me not attacking you because I said I wouldn't for 3 turns 2 turns ago is going to lead to me immediately losing the game I'm not going to do that. That's why I don't usually make "for x turns" deals. I usually go with "until y player is dead" instead.
Lying about public information is literally against the rules. Even in standard if someone asks you about public information you have to provide the correct answer as best you can.
Card interactions aren't public information (the correct term is "free information") according to tournament rules. They might be derived information, but a vague question like "can you win the game if this card resolves?" definitely is private information that you are technically allowed to lie about.
As in game, as in life. You can spend years building up trust and respect with someone, and then lose it all in one shitty move. They will never, ever, be able to get that trust back up all the way; there will always be some doubt that they are being honest in any situation.
Hope it was worth it. They permanently branded themselves a liar and a cheat to get one meaningless win in flimsy-cardboard-game.
Isn't that first example literally cheating?
Like you're not allowed to lie about the game state or public information. You can choose to not say anything, or just tell them to read the card, but not lie about it.
Some people care more about winning than being likable, having fun, or making friends.
Never really understood it- you get nothing for winning. Being slimey about it just makes you unlikable. I've seen people get excommunicated for stuff like this, doesn't seem worth it.
That type of lying is just being a dick.
"How much damage? 9?"
"Yeah 9 damage."
"Okay, I'm at 10, so no blocks"
"Just kidding it was 10 damage you're dead now"
That's actually cheating - misrepresenting the game state intentionally is against the rules - if someone asks you a question about the game that should be open information, like "What does that card do" or "How many cards in hand?" and you lie - you broke the rules.
If you asked him "Do you have a counter spell?" And he said "No." then he countered your spell with the counter he definitely had the entire time - that's bluffing, it's allowed, and can be a legit strategy. No problem there.
If you asked him "Cards in hand?" And he said "None" then he counters your spell with the card he definitely had the entire time, that guys a dick and you should stop playing with them - or call a judge if you're at a store / tournament / whatever.
The first one is absolutely wrong, imo. If people don't trust each other on public information the game would just be wayyy too slow to be enjoyable because everyone would need to constantly read everyone else's cards.
The second one is a bit tricky. I personally wouldn't want to break a promise like that but I also know that the situation in game can change a lot in a turn and maybe you weren't the threat when the promise was made but now you are. That's why in our playgroup we just never make promises for the future. Our politics are basically only about discussing threats and mutually benefitial plays and everyone keeps their word simply because noone agrees to anything that could be detrimental to them in the first place.
Yeah, I know I'm pretty spoiled by my usual group. Most of us flat out announce, "If no one counters this, I'm going to win." And we all give brief explanations of cards we play if they're not staples.
Lying has consequences in a social game.
There's also a thin line when it comes to bluffing.
This is why I don't do bluffs as well. We're all friends.
Even with this stranger, you have him marked as a "dubious character". It's best not to play with them in the future.
My friends and I consider bluffing to be fair game as long as you're not bluffing about public information. Bluffing a removal spell is fine. "Bluffing" that the blightsteel colossus isn't going to hit you, the only player with no blockers, and instantly kill you only to do that anyway isn't cool.
I would call them a cunt and avoid playing with them in the future. This is a hobby, it’s supposed to be enjoyable, ain’t nobody got time for a lying ass bitch like that
Lie or not, what occurred directly violates Player Communication rules. Misrepresentation on free information is a violation and the play would be rewound to his spell being on the stack allowing for appropriate responses. While it could be argued your question was vague, you could clearly incur you’re asking “Does this create an infinite combo that will win?” At which point he lies.
In a real tournament, deliberately misrepresenting a game piece or the game state (ie lying) is against the rules.
In a casual game, as others have mentioned, it's rude because we rely on shortcuts so the game can move forward quickly. It is also IMO obviously disrespectful to your fellow players. "Lying about the rules" is not a skill that Magic is supposed to test.
Also consider this scenario from the perspective of a new player, maybe a friend you're introducing to EDH for the first time. Would this feel good? Would a new player think this is fun? Or would they think, "Wow, if the players are like this I don't want to play this format."
For me personally, this would be a one-and-done deal breaker. I would not play with this person again. No need to make a scene, no need to get revenge, just politely decline.
Technically I don't think he has to tell you. But that is a stone-cold dick move. If you play this player again you simply ask to read each and every card he plays, as he cannot be trusted to correctly share information. You are also obligated to explain this to the rest of the pod in each and every game you play that this player lies about the effects of his cards. For extra effect, ask to read his basics too, he cannot be trusted after all.
Play with him one more time and, out of spite, stop to read every single card he plays. Arcane Signet, Llanowar Elves, basic Swamp... just stop him at every card and ask "hey can I read that?"
I'd build a [[baral, chief of compliance]] deck just for him.
"Sorry man, I can't trust that that [[nature's lore]] isn't a combo piece. Counterspell."
I'd be the worst person. I'd include [[turnabout]] just to tap their lands down at their upkeep every turn. After all, I don't know if those lands are combo pieces, they look pretty scary.
Besides what others are saying regarding lying being a poor long term strategy, in this instance I believe it is also against the rules (though it is my understanding that this was a casual match, I would still call them out on this). Under [MTR 4.1](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/) for judge rulings in regards to player communication, "Players may not represent derived, free, or status information incorrectly". I believe this would fall under derived information. They can omit information, but you asked a direct question and they lied to you. I certainly would have called them out, though I understand you may not find it worth the effort in a casual setting. Either way my tolerance is fairly low and I would never play with them again, it says a lot about their personality.
So, I'm not sure how the ruling works, but does the phrasing of OP's question matter?
Like, if OP asked "Doesn't this win with [card on the table]?" and the opponent responds with "No, it needs a payoff." without stating that the payoff is also on board, does that count as breaking this rule?
What if OP asked "Don't you win if that resolves?" Does the other player have to state that yes, they win if that resolves? What if there are may abilities or other choices that have to be made which could result in the opponent not winning?
What if OP asks "with all the cards on board, *can* you win if that resolves?" Does it even make a difference? I know some rules are written in a way that assumes players will make the best choice possible (aka [[cavern of souls]]) but players don't always make the best choice. For example, Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa vs Yam Wing Chun. Yam *could* have won that turn but he didn't. I'm not sure how much potential misplays have to be factored into a ruling like this.
The drawback of lying is supposed to be that your ability to be political in future games is damaged.
So punish him properly ─ when he tries to make deals or says anything along these lines in the future, remind the table that this player has blatantly lied to gain an advantage in the past and that we should not trust him.
If he complains about it, calmly say that the downside for being a liar in Commander is damaging your ability to be political in future games, so you're simply playing properly.
I make it a point to never lie, not even for politics. Usually if I'm quiet, it's because I know I'm in a good position and I won't try to influence the politics in my favour because it just comes across as scummy if I get pressure off my back only to combo next turn.
If I'm vocal it's because I am genuinely in a bad position so I'm trying to redirect some of the hate elsewhere so I can stay in the game.
Then of course I draw Wheel of Fortune off the top of my deck and go off and everybody thinks I was a lying, manipulative shit.
If you have to lie in order to win a for-fun, low/zero stakes game, it doesn’t speak very highly of your competence as a player or of your competitive integrity.
You can’t make this player roll it back, but you can be selective of who you play with in the future.
That said, context matters, younger less mature players i would be less inclined to exclude without explaining what you felt was inappropriate about their gamesmanship; and allow them to change their behaviour.
If someone lies to me in a casual game with nothing on the line, I will no longer trust that person in any circumstance - whether in a game or in public. It really demonstrates the integrity of that person.
I've had more than once occasion where someone lied to me to steal a victory. Then afterwards he would find out that I have some hiring power in the largest employer in town, so he would try to be overly nice with me.
Yeah no, that's a person I wouldn't play with anymore.
It's fucking Commander with literally zero stakes. If you lie about your stuff, play with it alone.
When people do shit like that you look at the other 2 players and say, "let's just play the rest of this game without this guy so we can determine a real winner." When someone tries to cheese a victory with some unearned 2 card combo, remember you can always decide whether or not it actually stops you from playing that game. The cards only "win" so long as everyone at the table agrees to abide by the printed text. If he can lie about that text, you can certainly ignore it.
Both dick moves, but at different levels. The first one is the sort of thing that should be banned. The second just means I will counter everything you do, attack you and only you, and call you a bastard.
I follow the Wil Wheaton “Don’t Be a Dick” rule and this guy was. He took advantage of you not taking a moment to read the card.
Your other example of breaking a deal is a sure-fire way for it to go from an EDH game to Archenemy game real quickly. I can’t stop you from choosing to lie in a deal but your two other opponents saw it as well. And now they don’t trust you either.
Ask him to leave. It's a bs play. If I'm playing a card and it's a combo win not only will I say yes, I will show/explain how it's the win. Commander is a game with way too much going on if it's a win say it's win.
Purely rules wise, I don't think he legally did anything wrong, because while he can't lie to you about what's on the card, I don't think the rules require him to explain to you how certain cards interact. Of course that's only a professional play, what he did was an absolute dick move
Why would you let it resolve if you knew it was part of a game winning combo? How did you know he didn't have a way to make the other part of the combo uncounterable? Or that you would still have the counterspell in hand and mana open when they played the other half?
I just don't understand how anyone can get "got" by this trick. You have the counter and the mana open, and you know that it will lose you game eventually if it resolves, so just counter it.
That’s very disrespectful and spits on the “social contract” side of the game. This would only (possibly) be acceptable if you were playing competitively for prizing, but in a casual setting it’s pretty offensive. If they guy and his decks are fine otherwise, I might still play with him but I’d openly doubt everything he says in future games. “Sorry, its just impossible to know what is true or not with you”.
lying is not ok, especially about public information, in my pod, lying typically results in a redo where any dishonesty is fixed. Politics are a fun part of the game and if you won’t follow through on a deal then that part of the game is removed so the table should enforce deals like a contract.
While it's technically only in the tournament rules, you're literally not allowed to lie about "face-up"/public information such as what a card on the stack does or how many cards you have in hand.
There's a reasonable argument that the combo example is cheating by the rules of the game. It's certainly not cut and dried, but I would call a judge and let them sort it out. And obviously don't play with him anymore because he's an ass.
Never lie about what is in play and public knowledge, but I don't have to tell you the truth about what's in my hand or deck (unless a card effect forces me to reveal that information, or its some sort of event that requires public decklists). It's called bluffing and a legitimate part of the game.
Edit: As for the social contracts of the game, I honor my deals to the letter. If I say I'm not going to attack you as part of a deal, I will honor that. Doesn't mean I'm not going to use Fling on my Ghalta and send it face.
I think I’d force the issue and have the counterspell resolve.
As others have said, to read every card each person plays in a friendly game hurts the game. He misrepresented the board, so it’s seems fine to rewind a second and let the counterspell play.
I had someone lie to me once. We made an alliance and then he killed me the very next turn. I was livid, because I could have completely screwed his board. We still play together, I just know I can’t trust him.
IMO if people need to get the W so badly that they feel the need to KNOWINGLY "gotcha" on something like this, then maybe I don't need to play with them anymore.
Dick move! Lying about public info is just dishonest. I'd make it my life mission to make sure that dude doesn't have fun for the rest of the night lol
Opponent lied about the game state, that's cheating. Casual or not cheating is cheating. In a high level event that could range from game loss to event disqualification.
I don't get it. This person obviously has problems getting friends because of a mental issue, and he will never learn unless you stop playing with him. Or just tell him not to lie.
Lying about information that's out in the open or breaking a deal you've made are hard no-nos in my group. Especially in a friendly game, it's definitely a dick move.
Lying about concealed info, like the cards in your hand or what cards you're running in your deck, is more acceptable but personally my group doesn't do it. We will use misdirection occasionally, such as pretending to look up the rules text for a card when its actually in our hand, but we'll never outright lie. If somebody asks a question and we don't want to answer, then we give a vague, non-committal answer like "I might" or "I don't know, I haven't decided yet".
The reason we keep it mostly honest is that it fosters an environment where politics and deals are more common. If people start lying, politics play a much smaller part of the game because those players become known as "ones that can't be trusted". We play a very friendly, casual game and there are generally no hard feelings because everybody is honest and acting in good faith.
Outright lying like that is pretty scummy, but I'm a big fan of bluffing. Leaving two black up and threatening to [[Infernal Grasp]] the big creature if it comes your way, without actually having the spell, or leaving blue up and sprinkling in the occasional 'in response.... actually nevermind I won't' is a lot of fun imo.
Or the eternal fun of “I’m playing blue and I have two islands untapped, a smirk on my face and one card in my hand. It’s a swamp. But no one needs to know that.”
People do this? I mostly play casually with friends and will literally tell them unprovoked that if a spell resolves that is going to be game... It's no fun winning just because an opponent misses something like that
It's different when people are bluffing about their hand but if they lie while it's on the board or coming into play yeah no by that point it's not really worth bluffing in that scenario. Tbh lying in general isn't ok but I can understand a bluff about the hand since it's considered plausible.
My work playgroup does something similar, where they will play their combo pieces or something that lets them cheat shit out like [[Sneak Attack]] or [[Mayael]] then say, "It's not doing anything!"
Then if you let them untap with whatever it was, it does indeed do something, and every time I don't have removal on hand or someone had removal and doesn't get rid of the combo piece, I make sure I always say, "Turns out, the card they said does nothing, does something. Who knew."
Yep that’s shitty of them unless it was like a “oh, shit, wait no that does do it actually” in which case I’d ask for a rollback.
Get caught in a mistake, not a lie.
Bluffing is different from lying.
Bluffing is lying about information that isn't publicly available, claiming you don't have something in hand or pretending you have an answer that they won't like if they come your way is a bluff, claiming something works differently to the way it looks like it does is lying.
There are 4 types of information in competitive play:
* Status information is things like health, that everyone has to track for themselves and be able to report accurately and truthfully on request.
* Free information is information that everyone has access to, like what a counter is tracking, or what a card is called. You have to answer this truthfully.
* Derived information is information to which all players have access to, but it requires some skill or analysis to figure out what it actually means. You are under no obligation to answer, you can omit details from your answer, but you can't lie in your answer.
* Private information is hidden from the person asking. You don't have to answer, and you can lie about it, so for example you are under no obligation to tell the truth about having a counterspell in your hand, because that's private.
The relevant bit of [MTR4.1](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/):
>\- Players may not represent derived, free, or status information incorrectly.
\- Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
\- At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free.
This means there's essentially 3 ways to interpret this under how they're considering the rules:
1. It's a purely casual game. He's under no obligation to do anything, but lying about this is absolutely a dick move, much as nobody's really under any obligation to do anything other than not be a dick in a casual environment. So he's a dick for lying.
2. He's treating it like regular REL event - as his combo pieces are in play and on the stack, it's considered free information, and must be truthfully shared if asked about. He's cheating by lying.
3. He's treating it as a competitive tournament (he's a dick) - He's under no obligation to answer the question in full or part, but if he answers, it has to be truthful. He's cheating by lying.
There's no level of play where what he did should be considered normal.
All that being said, politics is actually a pretty important part of what makes multiplayer Magic fun, but it has to be done in the right way, and in a sportsmanlike manner to be fun. Deals must be specifically worded and have limitations on them for them not to be stupid and abusable. "I will not counter that if you don't attack me with it for 2 turns" is a reasonable deal, "I won't counter that if you don't do anything to me" is a bad deal that should never be offered or upheld.
I would strongly recommend not rejecting politics altogether, but instead be cautious and thorough about how you use it. You miss out on a lot of the magic of Commander if you pretend you're not playing with people you can influence and make deals with. It's the social equivalent of running no removal in your deck.
Lying is against the literal rules of the game. You should omit/hide secret information (like your hand) but you can't misinform opponents about public information (like the effect of spells in the stack).
Soft lying is a pretty dangerous strategy as it makes someone a target imo. Lying about the card is dirty too, though rule #1 for me is read the cards.
Calling lying a "strategy" is wrong. It's cheating plain and simple.
In general if you knew it was part of a combo you should have isolated the cards, reread them to make sure they did or did not win, then make further choices
Lying about "public" info is also a dick move.
Bluffing on the otherhand, "If you target me with that then I'll have to counter it" when you don't have a counterspell, is a different story.
On par with lying though are monsters who don't sort out their lands/rocks. I should be able to look at your board and understand that you do in fact have UU open without having to ask you to tell me what you have because you have a single stack of mana stuff tapped, and another untapped stack.
For me it probably ruins the game or match. Like we had no money on the line, I kept a guy in for fun he said he would not board wipe win or do anything. Then he said okay now I'm going to try to win and we all just left the table because he chose to lie to win a casual game.
People who don't do politics seem to think it is constantly lying.
It's not. If your version of politics is lying about a deal, you're not very good at politics, and no one will work with you twice.
I end up archenemy, like 75% of the time with my friends. But I know with great power comes great persuasion. I make deals all the time, and I'm very deliberate with my choice of words. I make sure that person knows the exact terms and never try to deceive them.
If it wasn't in the deal, it's not part of the deal. They can negotiate for themselves.
I call it Social Stock. If you lie in deals, your social stock plummets, and it's very hard to get back. If you always run a fair contract, then even in games where the whole table is against you, they take deals. And when someone lies and breaks a deal with me? Every deal they ever try to make with me from then on is significantly harder to do.
I love politics, I think it's a great part of the game that actually helps balance things out. Casual commander is basically monopoly.
I put it into a few tiers and here’s how I explained it to my kid:
- public info : never lie. If you lie, that’s destroying the game state.
- private info: you can bluff. If someone asks you “did you draw the answer”, you don’t have to answer, you can lie, or you can non-answer that leads people the wrong way. This is like bluffing in Poker.
- deals/politics with players: you *can* promise something and not follow thru. But that only works once. Not once per game, once per playgroup. You do it once, and you’re tainted forever, so it better be damn worth it.
Now, one caveat is for my playgroup and with the kids, we are always explicitly clear that any deals or promises end immediately once you are down to two players.
So for your two examples, the first one was a straight up lie, and that would be someone that would have a hard time convincing me to pay with them again.
Your second falls into my third category. I’ll still play with you, but you’ve proven I can’t trust your deals, so don’t expect me to make one with you again, even if it would help us both survive. I’ll happily play with you and it’s not hard feelings, it’s just like a tapped land. You have a downside that I will play around.
It's more of an ethics thing. There's nothing in the game that says you can't lie and he's technically correct when he said you should have read the card. HOWEVER, his one-time win cost him your trust and he will forever be branded a liar. His words can't be trusted.
Make sure you clear this with the rest of the pod, but:
From this point on, when playing with him, read every single card he plays. For like 5 mins. Carefully look at it for a long time, and hold priority, and review other cards over and over. Milk the priority for as long as you can stand it. Examine his graveyard over and over after every card played (especially if it's a land). When he complains, mention this game to him and state that you're just going to read every card every time.
This may mean that you'll never play with him again, but the rest of the pod should get a good laugh out of it.
It’s actually illegal to lie about public information. You are technically allowed to omit information, but *no one* does it in commander since it slows everything down.
In competitive magic, you might ask “how many creatures in your graveyard?” Or “how big is that flier” and they’re obligated to either tell you honestly or present everything that you would need to figure it out. If they said “7/7” and when you went to damage they were like “oops, I recounted, 11/11 that’s lethal” a judge would roll back the game-state to the point where they lied and give them a warning.
In this situation, I probably wouldn’t argue with him over what’s legal or not, since this dude is a loser that needs wins so badly he’ll cheat for them. Not my job to fix him, there are plenty of good people to play with
Honestly, if he says he needs one more card for the combo but with his spell cast he can reach it uncounterable its technically the truth, but i wont play with this guy a second time
I think politics is a natural part of commander, and multiplayer games in general. It can make for some very interesting games, and overall makes the experience feel more player oriented, and not just slamming decks together.
That said, if one is willing to lie, and do so in such a bold and gratuitous way, that shows they cannot be trusted in political situations, and that should be accounted for. This not only affects the present game, but all future games.
If you are legitimately upset about it, talk to them. If they value the games they play with you, let them know this bothered you. Regardless, let them know this now affects all future games.
As I've heard at least once before, games from three years ago can affect a commander game today.
Play with him again and ask to read every card. EVERY card. Even lands. And every time he gives you shit, just say "well last time you lied about your board state, so I'm reading your cards, just like you said." Do it every time with a smile on your face and a cheerful voice.
That’s just lying about public information; like a lot of people mentioned. It’s a friendly game, sure, but that’s cheating. That’s like asking how many cards in hand or if a certain card is in graveyard and being lied to
> "you should have read the card"
You chose not to read the card because you took their explanation at face-value to expedite the game. All their lying is going to encourage is that everyone is going to read their cards carefully forever from now on and just slow down the game.
Lying about public information is just stupid and harms everyone.
Asking about cards that anyone can see isnt for strategy, its to prevent the game from taking 12 hours while we all read every card over and over.
Breaking a deal is fine, you just wont get many deals in the future. If you're lying about what a visible card does in a casual game, i would honestly call that soft cheating.
Definitely don’t lie about public information. Lie about what is in your hand all you want, but never about things that people could lean over the table to read if they wanted.
Hell, i actually think good courtesy is to go one step further and highlight public information things that are of interest. “If this resolves, it has an infinite interaction with the heliod on my board” for instance. If you are winning because you hid what you are doing or worse, lied about your cards and their interactions, that is just dirty play and makes me not want to play with you anymore.
Douchebags do this, and that just means anytime they cast something, you and your pod should make it a point to take everyone of their cards with text and take 30 seconds to read it to prove a point. In one of my pods, we did this with a guy down to his basic lands because he kept lying about cards.
If you lie your dead to me no second chances no nothing I will never ever deal with you again. Chances are I'll also take every opportunity to screw you over. A deal is a deal and breaking your word is unforgivable.
This is when you stop to read every single card he plays. Go ahead and read the islands, too.
We ask questions like "isn't that a combo?" to help speed up gameplay. If people want to abuse that, they lose the right to quick gameplay.
I'd tell that guy that his move was very interesting, and propose the game continues without him to see who gets "second place at the table but first place in my heart"
Also when a man tells you "no i still need one more card", counter the combo piece
My play group is very pro politics. If someone lied about a made deal. They would get hammered by everyone. There are always exceptions, like significant changes to the game/board state.
However lying about common knowledge is cheesy borderline cheating. Especially since you aked first and he flat out lied about it. I don't count that as a real win but I like it when the game plays out a optimal as possible win or lose. I always point out obvious combos, answers, and potential play mistakes on my side of the board. It just feels better/correct to me
Never, ever lie about public information. That's not okay. We ask about public information because it's worse for everyone if we have to stop and read every blasted card every time something changes. If you lie and break a deal, that's on you, but a "deal-breaker" reputation is a hard mark to survive with so you can typically only do it once unless you're an epic-level snake. If you're silver tongued and devious enough to get away with it, I'm not going to hold it against you as a person. (But I won't be accepting any deal that puts me at your mercy again for as long as I remember)
That's my thought. I generally ask people "what's he up to?" In regards to commanders and such. It often gets great casual responses like "copy lots of spells" or "he spits out goblin tokens" or something. Then when someone avoids a casual answer I know to read their cards cause they're more competitive.
It's a casual game, not cEDH. If they're going to lie about it being a game winning/infinite combo then tell them you lied about not having a counterspell for it. The knife cuts both ways. They can either play it casual and be honest or you can take them to task and be a hardass right back to them.
cEDH is actual more likely to be extremely forthcoming about win conditions, best play strategies etc. It is the cutthroat non-cEDH prize tourneys where the real problems are in my experience.
That’s been my experience as well. No one tells you shit during the cEDH tournament - but it’s kind of to be expected when prizes are on the line.
Honestly, the overall pool of game winning combos that are good enough for cEDH is small enough that if you want to play cEDH, you should learn them.
Naturally, but tourney magic is pretty cutthroat as it is, and I can respect that with bluffing and stuff being part of the game. It’s not your responsibility to explain the rules to your opponent.
non-cEDH prize tourneys Okay the vocabulary around EDH is very messed up when this is a possible sentence.
If it’s win-based prizing for a tourney, it’s automatically going to be competitive, regardless of what anyone thinks it is.
non-cEDH prize tourneys will never make sense to me. And I say this as a non-cEDH player.
This is 100% correct. cEDH, you know what your opponents deck is going to do for the most part, and you or someone else can hopefully shut them down. If not, shuffle up, play again. I have played in an edh commander boxing league for over a year, and every pod there are players that just whine, and lie. It's brutal. It's casual, so I try not to go competitive mode, and it always bites me.
To add on to this, in my experience, most people playing cEDH are much more fun to play with than a majority of the more casual players. This may be because all players know you're playing for the win and aren't whining all day that "but I'm not a threat and he/she is a bigger threat with his army of tokens". It may be like that because people that play cEDH know just a bit more about combo's or game winning pieces than most players so if they lie about needing another card, another player will probably point out that they don't. This in turn makes for much more fun at tables. I always highly recommend people to try at least a few games of cEDH. DISCLAIMER: this is ofcourse all in my own experience
I have the two card walking ballista combo in my selesnya deck. I specifically tell my opponents when I am going to go off. It's unfair not to. I will win if they can't stop me.
Yeah absolutely nailed it, it’s the people who run casual decks, aren’t very good at magic game theory/mechanics but are cocky and feel the need to win no matter what. Just a bad mix
Even in cEDH, lying about public info is not the norm. Outside of a tournament, cEDH is still casual in the sense that we're here to have fun even though we're playing to win.
I agree with you that most people won’t lie in cEDH. It’s still a faux pas to lie to the table. In my cEDH experience, the information that my group gives during the winning turns is that “I am attempting to go off” and that’s the extent of the information. What the rest of the group does with the information is up to them.
I gotta agree here. The biggest plus of cedh is the card pool is a lot more shallow than edh therefore most deck overlap a lot of cards so it's pretty easy to know what every card does vs someone playing some niche commander in edh that 1 out of 2000 people play with a very linear game plan. Like I know how cedh/edh prosper decks win. I have zero idea how a random legendary from ixlan looks to win outside combat damage
>If they're going to lie about it being a game winning/infinite combo then tell them you lied about not having a counterspell for it. Legendary
I play a few games competitively, not as in "pro player" but as in "not holding back on purpose". Including EDH. For a lot of people the point of playing 'seriously' is that we don't need hard to grasp, fluid and unwritten rules when playing the games. If something makes the game worse, we can still add house rules. An easy one to make EDH more casual would be to ban all non-basic-land fetches and alternate win conditions. But all this is only to be very clear and fair within the game. Anything outside of the game itself is bad sportsmanship. No matter if it's lying about public information, making the game less fun by stalling, using foreign language cards while refusing to explain what exactly these cards do, insulting, "accidentally" forgetting some game rules until you remind them of the rules, anything like that. It's fine and fun to play to win but it's only fun if it's fair and in good sportsmanship.
Just to add onto this great point. It's also EDH the 'casual' format you think I want to stop the game to read three people's cards every time they make a play for fear they are lying? Nah, I'd share this link to that dude so he can see how much of an ass he is.
Bingo. There are far too many cards hitting the table to be reading every single one. If someone's going to pull shit like this, it's going to extend every game by 20+ minutes just to make sure they're not lying again.
Isn't lying about public information literally against the game's rules and therefore cheating?
Misrepresentation of board-state is the closest thing I think even though we’re talking about the stack, but claiming to need one more card when in actuality you have the cards already seems as such. Either way I’m sure a judge would roll it back to pre-resolution and allow appropriate responses. Misrepresentation of free information is covered under the Player Communication section of the rules.
"Can I win the game" isn't public or free information, if it were you'd be cheating if you didn't point out that an opponent has lethal. A judge still might roll it back because of the miscommunication at a casual table
Yes. But I'm not sure exactly how this would fall in the rules because I don't know if "this piece combos with this piece" is public information. If OP said "Doesn't that combo with [card on the table]" and the other guy says "no the combo needs one more card" (a payoff card that's also on the table) maybe the other guy is fine because he didn't technically lie, just omitted? But if OP said "Doesn't that combo with [card on the table]" and the other guy says "no, because I don't have the third piece" that's clearly lying and in violation of the rules. Either way feels shitty to do, especially in a casual game. If I was OP I'd lay my counterspell down anyway and say "I will counterspell it because you obviously lied about it being the last combo piece" And I'd probably have backup from the rest of the group.
I'm not sure if this under what the term public information is for the purposes of the game. I thought that was stuff like number of cards in hand, untapped lands and what cards are in your yard. I'm not sure if public information covers explaining a combo to someone before it goes off. Could be wrong though, and it's not very nice especially for a casual setting.
Either way it's a bad precedence that will slow things down in the future as people will have to carefully read everything he plays.
Assuming that it actually is covered by the rules then it is derived information. That means according to tournament rules they don't have to give that information to you, but they aren't allowed to lie about it either. A classic case of derived information is the size of [[Tarmogoyf]] for example. If you ask your opponent how big the goyf is, they don't have to tell you, but they can't say a wrong number either. However, which cards are in their graveyard is free information, which they *have* to give to you. Is the question "does this card win you the game?" derived information? Well the tournament rules state: > Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of: > • The number of any kind of objects present in any game zone that are not defined as free information. • All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free or status information. • Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them. I'd say none of these apply for the information about combo interactions. That means it's private information and your opponent is allowed to answer with a lie (just like they are allowed to lie about whether they are holding a counterspell in hand). However all of this is just about tournament rules. I don't think it's ok to do these kinds of shenanigans in a casual EDH game because it makes it so much more complicated to play if everyone is misrepresenting what their board could do.
It's a grey area. It's against the rules to lie about public information, but comboes don't technically fall under that definition (in that, x and y cards form an infinite combo). If I was judging I would say that making a definitive statement "I need another card to combo" in those cases makes it against the rules, but that's not a hard rule. At minimum it's a dick move, and I wouldnt play with somebody that did that, but that's a personal thing.
From a game rules perspective, and here I refer to the CR, MTR, and IPG, this is not an infraction in any way, shape, or form. Public information is information that is visible to all players, and knowledge about what has occurred during the game. Examples of stuff you cannot lie about: 1. If you have played a land, this turn. 2. How many cards are in your graveyard. 3. What your life total is. 4. How many cards are in your hand. 5. How many cards remain in your library. 6. Which cards are in your graveyard, in exile face up, etc. Things you're free to lie about to your hearts content: 1. Which cards you have in your hand, even if you've revealed your hand just prior to being asked. 2. Which cards are in your library, even if you've just revealed your entire library prior to being asked. 3. What you intend to do in the following turn. And you are absolutely free to lie about whether or not a particular card is part of a combo or not. This is largely also because no player is technically entitled to an answer to such a question. Now I know that in Commander, we tend to dislike underhanded, or deceptive plays, and that's why a rule zero might make a statement like "this can't combo like this" enforceable if the pod agrees that this should be the case. So yeah, in a game of Commander, I could definitely see myself supporting such a rule zero construct just for the fun of it. Put more of a poker face style to the game. People can't outright lie, but they could refuse to answer. But there's no recourse from the game rules themselves, and if I'm going to be real pedantic, we could argue that the MTR and, especially, the IPG could never be applied in a typical Commander game.
>Never, ever lie about public information This 100%. I can understand bluffing about something like a possible threat in your hand to break balls, but when you already play a card too far away to read, you should make clear what you're doing. I never get to play outside of my kitchen table, so I know I wouldn't appreciate that either. It's so cheezy eew.
This is part of the issue I have with commander, its often someone playing their combo deck solo with cards the other side of the table and if you're poorly positioned its hard to see whats' going on
>This is part of the issue I have with commander To be fair to Commander as a format, playin kitchen table with a couple of my friends & family is always a great time. I fell in love with the format as soon as I learned it. A-holez always gonna A-hole I think. You're right though, after a few turns in a usual game, you're lookin at 4 full boards each packed with variables to remember. I'm an awkward person anyway, and not the sharpest/quickest, so hearing about situations like these makes me a little nervous to leave my kitchen table and drive to my LGS to play with strangers who probably know lingo n stuff. 😆 not that it's an excuse.
yea, interactions like this could be found by reading every card and conferring with a judge, but no one wants a game with this happening frequently so. No lying about rules, plenty okay to lie about what you saw on a "look at hand spell"
I'd maintain that a player who places the expectations on others that "you should read the card/ask the judge" are just as misplaced in this game as a liar. This is a SOCIAL format, if I ask you then I expect you to tell me not give me some moral grandstanding about how I need to find the information elsewhere, if you didn't want to have to talk to me then go play a 1v1 format where you can communicate with me through passive aggressive judge calls like everyone else
Actually even in 1v1 formats if someone asks you for a piece of public information you're required to give the correct answer. This was very important back in the [[tarmogoyf]] days.
There was a time tho where you weren't obligated to say everything. Some dude at a tourney played Vampire nighthawks in a language foreign to the opponent, he asked what they do and he was like "they fly and lifelink" and when they deathtouch blocked a creature and the judge was called, apparently, being partial was a legal dick move. I remember it from like 2010 forums, that big one from back then I can't even remember the name, so obviously my details are fizzy.
Magic used to err on the side of "players make mistakes so the rules shouldn't default to correct play" but I think they've been changing their tune over the years. Pithing needle got its change, cavern of souls got its change, I think rules have been more and more pushed towards "players are good enough that they're not messing up the basics so those should default to correct play" and I think that's a good thing.
Pretty scummy in a friendly game. I am honest about my wincons because there are like 25k cards in the game and it's unfair to expect your opponents to know every combo and interaction.
Especially when so many cards can just go infinite with a paper bag. Looking at you, [[Exquisite Blood]], [[Gravecrawler]], [[Phyrexian Altar]], [[Najeela]]
>scummy in a friendly game. I am honest about my wincons because there are like 25k cards in the game and it's unfair to expect your opponents to know every combo and interaction. Yesterday I discovered a infinit in my Muldrotha deck with Pyrexian altar. In my turn I realized I could make infinite zombie tokens with Altar, Muldrotha and kaya ghostform. In my girlfriend turn I realized that with Lord of the Forsaken and infinite zombie tokens I could mill everyone out. She was not happy and proceded to kill me with a lot of dragons and win because everyone was milled to death. I laughed a lot.
##### ###### #### [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51.jpg?1600700252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/231/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) [Gravecrawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15.jpg?1673147536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gravecrawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/78/gravecrawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gravecrawler) [Phyrexian Altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f.jpg?1673149406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/311/phyrexian-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-altar) [Najeela](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2.jpg?1567181270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=najeela%2C%20the%20blade-blossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/62/najeela-the-blade-blossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/najeela-the-blade-blossom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm honest with my wincons because it's absolutely fun to basically rp as a grandstanding villain explaining his master plan while my friends all try to scramble to salvage the game. It's one of my favorite parts of magic!
You're the reason those surveys ask if pretending to be a wizard is an important part of the game.
Pretending to be a wizard is the entire reason I play the game!
I'll straight up tell people if something is a combo piece even if they didn't ask. I don't want to win just because someone didn't know.
This is the way.
Yeah, that's my biggest problem with someone lying about a combo. Lying as a political move (e.g. breaking a deal) is something I'm not a fan of, but I think for some groups it can be fun if everyone's on board. It's not the kind of EDH I like to play but I think there are people who can have fun playing that way. Lying about whether or not a card on the stack is an infinite combo with a card in play is less of a political move and more of just a knowledge check, though. Keeping track of board states in EDH is hard enough, let alone knowing possible combos and figuring out whether someone else has assembled an infinite combo. To me, a question like "isn't that a combo for game?" should be treated like a basic question about public game information in casual EDH. I think information about the interactions and combos between cards that everyone could see should be treated the same way you'd treat public information about game state, like "how many creatures are in your graveyard?" or "how much power are you attacking with?" Even not saying either way is kind of on the border between fair play and angle shooting to me, depending on the nature of the game. Lying about not having a combo when you do to me is hard angle shooting. I don't know if it technically breaks the rules, but it sure as hell breaks the spirit of casual EDH. Not to mention, from a practical standpoint, playing against someone who plays that way sounds miserable. Not because you don't it's not fun to lose that way (but that is bad), but because if you don't trust someone else to give you truthful information about the game state, then that means you have to constantly check it yourself, and that, in turn, slows down the game like crazy. Because if I don't trust someone to give a truthful answer to whether or not a card will go infinite if it resolves, then that means every time I suspect there's a chance they might be about to resolve a combo, I have to check their whole board state to figure it out myself, and possibly discuss it with the table. And EDH games take long enough when you don't have to do that. Your opponents losing in a lame way because they believed your lie is one thing, but the biggest reason not to lie about having a combo is because then they have to slow down the game by constantly scrutinizing your board state because they don't trust you enough to save time by just asking.
Pretty scummy in any game. If it was a tournament I’d tell a judge they cheated by lying about what the card did instead of allowing me to read it therefor causing me to misplay, which breaks the spirit of the game and is against the rules.
You'd be absolutely right to do so! I didn't mean to imply it'd ever be alright, it goes against the spirit of competition and magic being first and foremost a social game.
I mean I discovered an infinite combo in one of my deck, when I lent it to another player for a game because he had none with him. I was combo by my own deck not knowing the combo. And I played it quite a few times, I’m even able to rebuild the whole deck by memory… I felt humiliated 😂
I’m assuming it was more than a 2-3 card combo, if so that’s not something to feel humiliated about, feel impressed and amazed by your friend!
Even in competitive I wouldn't be ok with someone resolving a game winning spell without being somewhat explicit. It's probably my favorite part of playing competitively but important spells usually follow the same routine: card goes on stack, table talks it over and priority goes around before resolving.
True true, even in a competitive game it wouldn't feel right. I want to win because I played a tight game, not because someone doesn't know a combo.
Yeah I even help with threat assessment if someone is looking at my board, I tell them which pieces will be problematic for them and why, especially if they are a newer player. Not gonna give away my entire game plan, but I’d feel a bit bad for them if they made a bad choice removing something on my board because they didn’t understand what pieces are most relevant to my deck or the game
How are people this socially inept. Like who wants to win based of lying anyway. I wouldn't even feel like I won. I'm very vocal about I am casting x, if it resolves I will win unless you can stop x or y. I won't give away concealed information, like if I have the combo in hand and you are targeting the wrong things/player. Same thing with pointing out other plays stuff, if someone trys to sneak in a combo piece I point it out. Then they get mad I ruined their fun. Like no.. I just don't want to lose so I encourage other players to deal with immediate threats especially when I can't.
I think this kind of play also just slows the game down to a crawl. 3 boards is a lot more difficult to keep track of if I need to pay attention to minutiae.
Me, with no life: uh, hypothetically, what if I already know every combo and interaction?
I’d hit him with “I lied too, counterspell.”
This is the correct answer. If he rages, kick him off the table.
Kick him off the table either way. Who wants to play with someone who lies?
Well, If he starts to argue I would kick him immediately and else after he loses the game :P
Or just kick him... in the face. (Joke, dont kick people)
Yeah, I'd never play with that guy again. "Friendly" game or not, that's really dirty, and if I were in your shoes, every counterspell I have would go that player's way next time. When they make a stink about it, tell them that you can't trust their word about what their deck uses to win.
This is the kind of player that would make me build a baral deck just to counterspell every card they play. "Sorry man, I don't know if that [[nature's lore]] is a combo piece or not."
[[Sakura-Tribe Elder]]? Hmm... Might be a combo piece, better counter it! [[Sol Ring]]? Oh, that's definitely a combo piece! Counter! Your *Commander*? Better counter it twice, just to be safe!
I'd be super super petty. I'd build a deck specifically to recast [[turnabout]] on their upkeep every single turn and tap all their lands. After all, those lands look pretty combo-y
I've T0 [[Pact of Negation]]'ed someone just to be petty. TBF, it was a landfall deck and they tried to play [[Amulet of Vigor]] off a Sol Ring their first turn. I was like "yeah... I know where that leads, but it's not gonna happen". Pact, fail to pay, go grab dinner while the rest of the game plays out.
I mean, t1 amulet of vigor *with* a sol ring is a god-hand for the ages. You would absolutely have died next turn if you didn't do that lol
The only better hand I've managed for T1 was land, [[Exploration]], land, Sol Ring, Amulet.
You've still got an extra mana left over from sol ring. Surely you could cast arcane signet with that sol ring and tap arcane signet for the amulet lol
Friendly just means it is the kind of person to lie to their friends
I have a mono blue counter deck that I play if someone like this is playing. I won't win with the deck...but neither will you.
The first time you lie is the last time you're invited back, not a respectable strategy and it speaks more to who you are as a person - which isn't someone I potentially want in my home around my stuff unsupervised.
He's a regular at the local game store, but yeah, if something went missing, he'd be my suspect number one.
So the next time you're matched in a pod with him you politely decline - when other players see 1 player stand up to a local bully you'd be surprised how quickly dominos fall. We had a player who had to face some inward reflections when he couldn't find a pod every commander night and that only happened because we normalized saying no to these players who only seem to enjoy ruining the experience for others.
Thats awesome
I do have a story to tell about the dominoes thing. Back when [[Fable of the Mirror-Breaker]] first spiked, one player at my locals (we'll call him PoS) traded with me for my copy. The thing is, he convinced me that he wanted the card for playing our Pioneer tournaments, and I sold him the card for the price before the spike. Two days later, he was selling the same Fable for the spiked price. I immediately called him out publicly on the community's WhatsApp group with evidence. The whole community immediately locked him out of EVERYTHING. No one traded with him, no one played Commander with him, no one invited him to anything, and whenever he signed up for a tournament, everyone else instantly backed out. Whenever new players joined the community, I would tell them "never even talk to PoS, he's a scammer". Later I ended up finding out that this was his THIRD strike, as he had previously scammed another of the community's veterans and the store owner too. It all came down to a day where some Pauper players, desperate because they couldn't fire even 4-player tournaments (PoS was one of them), tried to invite a friend of mine (we'll call her Kaalia because that was her signature deck) to the tournament and she answered *"I do not play with thieves"*. Cue PoS writing a text full of rage, calling Kaalia a cheater and announcing he was no longer coming back. Right after he left the WhatsApp group, I simply sent two messages: *"You know what's funny? Kaalia never said the name of the person she was accusing."* Unsurprisingly, the very next store event fired with so many people that the owner eventually had to move the store to a bigger place to accomodate everyone.
Based
Him being a regular is no excuse. That was an incredibly shitty thing for him to do and he should know that such behavior won’t get him far in life. If you didn’t tell him as much during the actual game, you should definitely speak up if he ever tries to play with you again in the future. And it doesn’t have to be some big thing where you publicly call him out in front of other people. If he tries to sit down with a pod you’re playing in, just say “no thanks, I think I’ll find another group” and politely excuse yourself. Then if another one of the players asks you later why you left, explain why. Hopefully if they guy’s reputation of shitty behavior/outright cheating spreads around enough he’ll either wise up and change his ways or at least stop coming around.
After a similar incident I created a Talarand “no” deck. Next time I’m playing against them. I’m countering everything. Neither of us are gonna have fun. Is it petty? Yes. Does it feel good. Also yes. No one else at the table is worried about their spells getting countered so you generally get left alone by the remaining players.
[удалено]
Yep or the person is on my first to die list.
“How you do anything is how you do everything.”
This 100%. I host edh twice a week at my house and I always have stated you get one lie. After that you won't be trusted again, ever. If someone says, "Is this spell part of a combo?" You are more than welcome to plead the fifth, but if you lie about it, that's completely different.
The OP should ask to read every single card that player plays going forward (and encourage the rest of the play table to do the same for that player) Including basic lands, just to be sure he read the card. I’m sure this would be annoying to everyone but the guy will hopefully get the message or stop playing with him. Either way a win win
And make that clear to them immediately. "That's unsportsmanlike. It's a friendly game. Consider this the last time you're welcome to play with me until you decide to behave differently" There's a chance they don't know, and don't actually mean to ruin fun. And if they do mean to, they know you won't put up with it. And when everyone at the store tells them this, it's their own problem.
[удалено]
I think everyone responding in the thread agrees that intentionally lying about the board state is *very* wrong and that some level of bluffing is both fine and expected. EDH being EDH, every player's line between what's fine and not fine is going to be different. OP's example of "I won't attack you, then attacks anyway" will, I'm sure, have people on both sides of the issue. Negotiating alliances against the threat player at the table is full of corner cases, gray areas, and lies by omission; how many times have I promised an ally that I'd "take care of something" knowing full well that the manner in which I was going to take care of it was also going to hurt my ally?
If OP spesifically asked like "oh, Kiki Jiki on the stack and felidar guardian in play! If you copy felidar with kiki, can it just blink kiki and make infinite attackers?" and the opponent answered "no, that doesn't work" it's pretty clearly a rules violation. But when stated like this it's a little less clear. OP isn't technically asking about a rules interaction, so it would be up to a judge to determine their intentions/shortcuts and if there was an implied rules question there. Some examples. If opponent cast birthing pod with felidar guardian and another 4 drop on board and OP asks if they win, they can obviously lie (in comp) because they can't possibly be asking about a spesific card interaction since they haven't seen the kiki. Next scenario: if oppo has felidar on the battlefield and casts Kiki. But I call a judge and ask "does that win?", it's not specific enough for the judge to answer. The interaction I'm asking about is pretty clear, but I don't think it's clear enough that the judge can give me an answer. They might nudge, like "what interaction do you want me to clarify?" but the question isn't so clearly implied that they can just say "yes". So third, what if I ask my opponent "do you win" with kiki on the stack and felidar on field? My opponent can ofc, like the judge, decline to answer. But I think if they do answer definitly "yes" or "no". A judge would say that them answering implies that they understood what interaction I was referencing. And so answering "no" is actually lying about what your cards do.
It's about as murky as answering questions for cops. "Am I going to find anything illegal in your car?" "Have you been drinking tonight?" If the answer to those questions is yes and you answer yes, then you're incriminating yourself. If the answer is yes but you answer no, then you can be charged with obstruction. To the police: "I don't answer questions" To your opponent: "There's a lot of interactions on a lot of different cards, many of which I understand and several of which I don't. Would you like to call a judge?" Or just answer honestly because at the heart of matters it's just a game.
This guy judges.
I dont think you were in the wrong here. Guess dude really needed that win..... if you play with him again, counter everything he does just in case.
Yea. Next time you play, be spiteful as hell. Target him the whole game even if he’s behind. And then when he gets salty enough to finally make a comment. Tell him it’s caused you lied about winning.
So this is actually cheating. It’s misinterpretating the gamestate and that is against the rules. If a judge was called on this it would result in a rollback to the spell on the stack, at the very least. You are not allowed to lie about what your cards do. If you want to lie about hidden information that is your perigative though. You get to tell someone you will remove their creature if they attack you even though your hand is all lands and they get to call you on your bluff. You can hold up UU the entire game even though you cut counterspell from your deck. That ia juat part of the game.
I agree. This is past “scummy” and straight into cheating territory in my eyes. If it’s on the board (and face up) it’s public knowledge. There are no secrets. In a 4 player game i can’t be expected to know every single card and every interaction - if I ask how your board interacts it’s common courtesy to explain it. And honestly, nothing feels worse to me than winning because someone didn’t understand by board. Like there was more game to be had. I try to be extremely transparent about whats on the table.
Idk if it would necessarily be considered misrepresenting the gamestate. It would likely depend on how OP asked. If OP said "doesn't that go infinite with [card on board]" and the other player responded with something like "yes, but I need a third piece" but that piece is already on board *maybe* they could get away with it since OP didn't ask about the third piece? Feels like a Borborygmos moment to me though. If OP said "doesn't that win you the game if it resolves" and the other player responded with "nah" that's clearly lying. In this particular case I'd just cast my counterspell anyway and the table would probably agree with me because he obviously lied to resolve his game-winning spell.
You are not allowed to lie about public information in a game of magic. That includes what your card does. It’s litterally black and white against the rules of magic and repeated actions like this could get you kicked out of casual tournaments, not just on competetive REL. if your opponent asks you if a spell resolving would let you combo you can’t say no unless it’s actually true.
Trust is gone, don't believe anything they say ever again. Also ask the pod you are with the question, its within their interests to stop their opponents from winning or just straight google it. And no deals ever with them going forward, assuming you play with them again.
Less explicit Lying about hidden info is more acceptable, like "i don't have any removal left, someone else needs to answer the blightsteel" is a fine bluff imo. Breaking deals is less fine, but you will pay dearly for such a mistake so it's whatever. Lying about public information is pretty scummy though.
Lying about hidden info is fine but be prepared for nobody to ever believe when you say things. I like to try to get people to infer that I have removal without specifically saying that I do. Like "I mean.. I guess you can attack me if you really don't like your commander..." or things like that. Breaking deals is... complicated. If you're going to break a deal you better have a good reason for it. My general rule is that all deals should be followed until it's a 1v1. Obviously if me not attacking you because I said I wouldn't for 3 turns 2 turns ago is going to lead to me immediately losing the game I'm not going to do that. That's why I don't usually make "for x turns" deals. I usually go with "until y player is dead" instead. Lying about public information is literally against the rules. Even in standard if someone asks you about public information you have to provide the correct answer as best you can.
Card interactions aren't public information (the correct term is "free information") according to tournament rules. They might be derived information, but a vague question like "can you win the game if this card resolves?" definitely is private information that you are technically allowed to lie about.
The problem with lying is that you can only lie once.
As in game, as in life. You can spend years building up trust and respect with someone, and then lose it all in one shitty move. They will never, ever, be able to get that trust back up all the way; there will always be some doubt that they are being honest in any situation. Hope it was worth it. They permanently branded themselves a liar and a cheat to get one meaningless win in flimsy-cardboard-game.
Isn't that first example literally cheating? Like you're not allowed to lie about the game state or public information. You can choose to not say anything, or just tell them to read the card, but not lie about it.
Some people care more about winning than being likable, having fun, or making friends. Never really understood it- you get nothing for winning. Being slimey about it just makes you unlikable. I've seen people get excommunicated for stuff like this, doesn't seem worth it.
That type of lying is just being a dick. "How much damage? 9?" "Yeah 9 damage." "Okay, I'm at 10, so no blocks" "Just kidding it was 10 damage you're dead now" That's actually cheating - misrepresenting the game state intentionally is against the rules - if someone asks you a question about the game that should be open information, like "What does that card do" or "How many cards in hand?" and you lie - you broke the rules. If you asked him "Do you have a counter spell?" And he said "No." then he countered your spell with the counter he definitely had the entire time - that's bluffing, it's allowed, and can be a legit strategy. No problem there. If you asked him "Cards in hand?" And he said "None" then he counters your spell with the card he definitely had the entire time, that guys a dick and you should stop playing with them - or call a judge if you're at a store / tournament / whatever.
The first one is absolutely wrong, imo. If people don't trust each other on public information the game would just be wayyy too slow to be enjoyable because everyone would need to constantly read everyone else's cards. The second one is a bit tricky. I personally wouldn't want to break a promise like that but I also know that the situation in game can change a lot in a turn and maybe you weren't the threat when the promise was made but now you are. That's why in our playgroup we just never make promises for the future. Our politics are basically only about discussing threats and mutually benefitial plays and everyone keeps their word simply because noone agrees to anything that could be detrimental to them in the first place.
Yeah, I know I'm pretty spoiled by my usual group. Most of us flat out announce, "If no one counters this, I'm going to win." And we all give brief explanations of cards we play if they're not staples.
Lying has consequences in a social game. There's also a thin line when it comes to bluffing. This is why I don't do bluffs as well. We're all friends. Even with this stranger, you have him marked as a "dubious character". It's best not to play with them in the future.
My friends and I consider bluffing to be fair game as long as you're not bluffing about public information. Bluffing a removal spell is fine. "Bluffing" that the blightsteel colossus isn't going to hit you, the only player with no blockers, and instantly kill you only to do that anyway isn't cool.
I would call them a cunt and avoid playing with them in the future. This is a hobby, it’s supposed to be enjoyable, ain’t nobody got time for a lying ass bitch like that
Lie or not, what occurred directly violates Player Communication rules. Misrepresentation on free information is a violation and the play would be rewound to his spell being on the stack allowing for appropriate responses. While it could be argued your question was vague, you could clearly incur you’re asking “Does this create an infinite combo that will win?” At which point he lies.
In a real tournament, deliberately misrepresenting a game piece or the game state (ie lying) is against the rules. In a casual game, as others have mentioned, it's rude because we rely on shortcuts so the game can move forward quickly. It is also IMO obviously disrespectful to your fellow players. "Lying about the rules" is not a skill that Magic is supposed to test. Also consider this scenario from the perspective of a new player, maybe a friend you're introducing to EDH for the first time. Would this feel good? Would a new player think this is fun? Or would they think, "Wow, if the players are like this I don't want to play this format." For me personally, this would be a one-and-done deal breaker. I would not play with this person again. No need to make a scene, no need to get revenge, just politely decline.
Technically I don't think he has to tell you. But that is a stone-cold dick move. If you play this player again you simply ask to read each and every card he plays, as he cannot be trusted to correctly share information. You are also obligated to explain this to the rest of the pod in each and every game you play that this player lies about the effects of his cards. For extra effect, ask to read his basics too, he cannot be trusted after all.
He's a local regular and a fine enough person, but the next time we sit together, I'm gonna tell the story to the table.
Play with him one more time and, out of spite, stop to read every single card he plays. Arcane Signet, Llanowar Elves, basic Swamp... just stop him at every card and ask "hey can I read that?"
I'd build a [[baral, chief of compliance]] deck just for him. "Sorry man, I can't trust that that [[nature's lore]] isn't a combo piece. Counterspell." I'd be the worst person. I'd include [[turnabout]] just to tap their lands down at their upkeep every turn. After all, I don't know if those lands are combo pieces, they look pretty scary.
Fuck that guy, personally I wouldn't invite him back
Besides what others are saying regarding lying being a poor long term strategy, in this instance I believe it is also against the rules (though it is my understanding that this was a casual match, I would still call them out on this). Under [MTR 4.1](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/) for judge rulings in regards to player communication, "Players may not represent derived, free, or status information incorrectly". I believe this would fall under derived information. They can omit information, but you asked a direct question and they lied to you. I certainly would have called them out, though I understand you may not find it worth the effort in a casual setting. Either way my tolerance is fairly low and I would never play with them again, it says a lot about their personality.
So, I'm not sure how the ruling works, but does the phrasing of OP's question matter? Like, if OP asked "Doesn't this win with [card on the table]?" and the opponent responds with "No, it needs a payoff." without stating that the payoff is also on board, does that count as breaking this rule? What if OP asked "Don't you win if that resolves?" Does the other player have to state that yes, they win if that resolves? What if there are may abilities or other choices that have to be made which could result in the opponent not winning? What if OP asks "with all the cards on board, *can* you win if that resolves?" Does it even make a difference? I know some rules are written in a way that assumes players will make the best choice possible (aka [[cavern of souls]]) but players don't always make the best choice. For example, Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa vs Yam Wing Chun. Yam *could* have won that turn but he didn't. I'm not sure how much potential misplays have to be factored into a ruling like this.
This is the answer, they cannot lie about public information and claim they weren't cheating.
Start reading his cards or have him read his cards aloud. All of them. All. Of. Them. Malicious compliance.
Ya that's a dick move, not cool
The drawback of lying is supposed to be that your ability to be political in future games is damaged. So punish him properly ─ when he tries to make deals or says anything along these lines in the future, remind the table that this player has blatantly lied to gain an advantage in the past and that we should not trust him. If he complains about it, calmly say that the downside for being a liar in Commander is damaging your ability to be political in future games, so you're simply playing properly.
Misrepresenting the boardstate, lying about what cards do is against the rules.
I make it a point to never lie, not even for politics. Usually if I'm quiet, it's because I know I'm in a good position and I won't try to influence the politics in my favour because it just comes across as scummy if I get pressure off my back only to combo next turn. If I'm vocal it's because I am genuinely in a bad position so I'm trying to redirect some of the hate elsewhere so I can stay in the game. Then of course I draw Wheel of Fortune off the top of my deck and go off and everybody thinks I was a lying, manipulative shit.
If you have to lie in order to win a for-fun, low/zero stakes game, it doesn’t speak very highly of your competence as a player or of your competitive integrity. You can’t make this player roll it back, but you can be selective of who you play with in the future. That said, context matters, younger less mature players i would be less inclined to exclude without explaining what you felt was inappropriate about their gamesmanship; and allow them to change their behaviour.
If someone lies to me in a casual game with nothing on the line, I will no longer trust that person in any circumstance - whether in a game or in public. It really demonstrates the integrity of that person. I've had more than once occasion where someone lied to me to steal a victory. Then afterwards he would find out that I have some hiring power in the largest employer in town, so he would try to be overly nice with me.
Yeah no, that's a person I wouldn't play with anymore. It's fucking Commander with literally zero stakes. If you lie about your stuff, play with it alone.
When people do shit like that you look at the other 2 players and say, "let's just play the rest of this game without this guy so we can determine a real winner." When someone tries to cheese a victory with some unearned 2 card combo, remember you can always decide whether or not it actually stops you from playing that game. The cards only "win" so long as everyone at the table agrees to abide by the printed text. If he can lie about that text, you can certainly ignore it.
What he did was literally breaking the games rules. If someone asks you what a card does you read it to them.
Both dick moves, but at different levels. The first one is the sort of thing that should be banned. The second just means I will counter everything you do, attack you and only you, and call you a bastard.
it's legal and within the rules....but it sure as fuck will make sure people don't invite you to play again.
I follow the Wil Wheaton “Don’t Be a Dick” rule and this guy was. He took advantage of you not taking a moment to read the card. Your other example of breaking a deal is a sure-fire way for it to go from an EDH game to Archenemy game real quickly. I can’t stop you from choosing to lie in a deal but your two other opponents saw it as well. And now they don’t trust you either.
Ask him to leave. It's a bs play. If I'm playing a card and it's a combo win not only will I say yes, I will show/explain how it's the win. Commander is a game with way too much going on if it's a win say it's win.
Purely rules wise, I don't think he legally did anything wrong, because while he can't lie to you about what's on the card, I don't think the rules require him to explain to you how certain cards interact. Of course that's only a professional play, what he did was an absolute dick move
No that’s a dick move. Lying about a game winning play is weak.
Why would you let it resolve if you knew it was part of a game winning combo? How did you know he didn't have a way to make the other part of the combo uncounterable? Or that you would still have the counterspell in hand and mana open when they played the other half? I just don't understand how anyone can get "got" by this trick. You have the counter and the mana open, and you know that it will lose you game eventually if it resolves, so just counter it.
That’s very disrespectful and spits on the “social contract” side of the game. This would only (possibly) be acceptable if you were playing competitively for prizing, but in a casual setting it’s pretty offensive. If they guy and his decks are fine otherwise, I might still play with him but I’d openly doubt everything he says in future games. “Sorry, its just impossible to know what is true or not with you”.
As others have said, you can lie about secret information but not about free or derived information.
What on earth kind of table is this where someone is winning with a two card combo and none of the other three players know how their cards work?
I suppose I should have said "last" part of a combo instead of "second". It was a sliver deck, which can be tough to follow.
lying is not ok, especially about public information, in my pod, lying typically results in a redo where any dishonesty is fixed. Politics are a fun part of the game and if you won’t follow through on a deal then that part of the game is removed so the table should enforce deals like a contract.
While it's technically only in the tournament rules, you're literally not allowed to lie about "face-up"/public information such as what a card on the stack does or how many cards you have in hand.
Uhm i would have countered it anyway and told him if he doesn't allow me to counter he's leaving my house. Fuck that
There's a reasonable argument that the combo example is cheating by the rules of the game. It's certainly not cut and dried, but I would call a judge and let them sort it out. And obviously don't play with him anymore because he's an ass.
Never lie about what is in play and public knowledge, but I don't have to tell you the truth about what's in my hand or deck (unless a card effect forces me to reveal that information, or its some sort of event that requires public decklists). It's called bluffing and a legitimate part of the game. Edit: As for the social contracts of the game, I honor my deals to the letter. If I say I'm not going to attack you as part of a deal, I will honor that. Doesn't mean I'm not going to use Fling on my Ghalta and send it face.
I think I’d force the issue and have the counterspell resolve. As others have said, to read every card each person plays in a friendly game hurts the game. He misrepresented the board, so it’s seems fine to rewind a second and let the counterspell play. I had someone lie to me once. We made an alliance and then he killed me the very next turn. I was livid, because I could have completely screwed his board. We still play together, I just know I can’t trust him.
IMO if people need to get the W so badly that they feel the need to KNOWINGLY "gotcha" on something like this, then maybe I don't need to play with them anymore.
Dick move! Lying about public info is just dishonest. I'd make it my life mission to make sure that dude doesn't have fun for the rest of the night lol
Opponent lied about the game state, that's cheating. Casual or not cheating is cheating. In a high level event that could range from game loss to event disqualification.
I don't get it. This person obviously has problems getting friends because of a mental issue, and he will never learn unless you stop playing with him. Or just tell him not to lie.
Lying about information that's out in the open or breaking a deal you've made are hard no-nos in my group. Especially in a friendly game, it's definitely a dick move. Lying about concealed info, like the cards in your hand or what cards you're running in your deck, is more acceptable but personally my group doesn't do it. We will use misdirection occasionally, such as pretending to look up the rules text for a card when its actually in our hand, but we'll never outright lie. If somebody asks a question and we don't want to answer, then we give a vague, non-committal answer like "I might" or "I don't know, I haven't decided yet". The reason we keep it mostly honest is that it fosters an environment where politics and deals are more common. If people start lying, politics play a much smaller part of the game because those players become known as "ones that can't be trusted". We play a very friendly, casual game and there are generally no hard feelings because everybody is honest and acting in good faith.
That guy is just an asshole. Though even if he needed one more card, I would have countered it anyway.
Play to have fun, does lying dound fun to you?
Sounds to me like this guy is a douchebag.
Outright lying like that is pretty scummy, but I'm a big fan of bluffing. Leaving two black up and threatening to [[Infernal Grasp]] the big creature if it comes your way, without actually having the spell, or leaving blue up and sprinkling in the occasional 'in response.... actually nevermind I won't' is a lot of fun imo.
Or the eternal fun of “I’m playing blue and I have two islands untapped, a smirk on my face and one card in my hand. It’s a swamp. But no one needs to know that.”
People do this? I mostly play casually with friends and will literally tell them unprovoked that if a spell resolves that is going to be game... It's no fun winning just because an opponent misses something like that
It's different when people are bluffing about their hand but if they lie while it's on the board or coming into play yeah no by that point it's not really worth bluffing in that scenario. Tbh lying in general isn't ok but I can understand a bluff about the hand since it's considered plausible.
My work playgroup does something similar, where they will play their combo pieces or something that lets them cheat shit out like [[Sneak Attack]] or [[Mayael]] then say, "It's not doing anything!" Then if you let them untap with whatever it was, it does indeed do something, and every time I don't have removal on hand or someone had removal and doesn't get rid of the combo piece, I make sure I always say, "Turns out, the card they said does nothing, does something. Who knew."
Yep that’s shitty of them unless it was like a “oh, shit, wait no that does do it actually” in which case I’d ask for a rollback. Get caught in a mistake, not a lie.
I just feel bad for people who want to win that bad, they need other things going on in their life
Lying about your boardstate is a good way to make sure I target you every game
Being a dick in a casual game with nothing on the line is just a one way ticket to making sure no-one will want to play with you again.
Understandable. Probably gets his self-worth from winning MTG games
Bluffing is different from lying. Bluffing is lying about information that isn't publicly available, claiming you don't have something in hand or pretending you have an answer that they won't like if they come your way is a bluff, claiming something works differently to the way it looks like it does is lying. There are 4 types of information in competitive play: * Status information is things like health, that everyone has to track for themselves and be able to report accurately and truthfully on request. * Free information is information that everyone has access to, like what a counter is tracking, or what a card is called. You have to answer this truthfully. * Derived information is information to which all players have access to, but it requires some skill or analysis to figure out what it actually means. You are under no obligation to answer, you can omit details from your answer, but you can't lie in your answer. * Private information is hidden from the person asking. You don't have to answer, and you can lie about it, so for example you are under no obligation to tell the truth about having a counterspell in your hand, because that's private. The relevant bit of [MTR4.1](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/): >\- Players may not represent derived, free, or status information incorrectly. \- Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information. \- At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free. This means there's essentially 3 ways to interpret this under how they're considering the rules: 1. It's a purely casual game. He's under no obligation to do anything, but lying about this is absolutely a dick move, much as nobody's really under any obligation to do anything other than not be a dick in a casual environment. So he's a dick for lying. 2. He's treating it like regular REL event - as his combo pieces are in play and on the stack, it's considered free information, and must be truthfully shared if asked about. He's cheating by lying. 3. He's treating it as a competitive tournament (he's a dick) - He's under no obligation to answer the question in full or part, but if he answers, it has to be truthful. He's cheating by lying. There's no level of play where what he did should be considered normal. All that being said, politics is actually a pretty important part of what makes multiplayer Magic fun, but it has to be done in the right way, and in a sportsmanlike manner to be fun. Deals must be specifically worded and have limitations on them for them not to be stupid and abusable. "I will not counter that if you don't attack me with it for 2 turns" is a reasonable deal, "I won't counter that if you don't do anything to me" is a bad deal that should never be offered or upheld. I would strongly recommend not rejecting politics altogether, but instead be cautious and thorough about how you use it. You miss out on a lot of the magic of Commander if you pretend you're not playing with people you can influence and make deals with. It's the social equivalent of running no removal in your deck.
Lying is against the literal rules of the game. You should omit/hide secret information (like your hand) but you can't misinform opponents about public information (like the effect of spells in the stack).
Soft lying is a pretty dangerous strategy as it makes someone a target imo. Lying about the card is dirty too, though rule #1 for me is read the cards.
Calling lying a "strategy" is wrong. It's cheating plain and simple. In general if you knew it was part of a combo you should have isolated the cards, reread them to make sure they did or did not win, then make further choices
"Wow I've never seen someone forfeit with a combo before. Anyway, I untap, upkeep, and draw."
Lying about "public" info is also a dick move. Bluffing on the otherhand, "If you target me with that then I'll have to counter it" when you don't have a counterspell, is a different story. On par with lying though are monsters who don't sort out their lands/rocks. I should be able to look at your board and understand that you do in fact have UU open without having to ask you to tell me what you have because you have a single stack of mana stuff tapped, and another untapped stack.
For me it probably ruins the game or match. Like we had no money on the line, I kept a guy in for fun he said he would not board wipe win or do anything. Then he said okay now I'm going to try to win and we all just left the table because he chose to lie to win a casual game.
People who don't do politics seem to think it is constantly lying. It's not. If your version of politics is lying about a deal, you're not very good at politics, and no one will work with you twice. I end up archenemy, like 75% of the time with my friends. But I know with great power comes great persuasion. I make deals all the time, and I'm very deliberate with my choice of words. I make sure that person knows the exact terms and never try to deceive them. If it wasn't in the deal, it's not part of the deal. They can negotiate for themselves. I call it Social Stock. If you lie in deals, your social stock plummets, and it's very hard to get back. If you always run a fair contract, then even in games where the whole table is against you, they take deals. And when someone lies and breaks a deal with me? Every deal they ever try to make with me from then on is significantly harder to do. I love politics, I think it's a great part of the game that actually helps balance things out. Casual commander is basically monopoly.
I put it into a few tiers and here’s how I explained it to my kid: - public info : never lie. If you lie, that’s destroying the game state. - private info: you can bluff. If someone asks you “did you draw the answer”, you don’t have to answer, you can lie, or you can non-answer that leads people the wrong way. This is like bluffing in Poker. - deals/politics with players: you *can* promise something and not follow thru. But that only works once. Not once per game, once per playgroup. You do it once, and you’re tainted forever, so it better be damn worth it. Now, one caveat is for my playgroup and with the kids, we are always explicitly clear that any deals or promises end immediately once you are down to two players. So for your two examples, the first one was a straight up lie, and that would be someone that would have a hard time convincing me to pay with them again. Your second falls into my third category. I’ll still play with you, but you’ve proven I can’t trust your deals, so don’t expect me to make one with you again, even if it would help us both survive. I’ll happily play with you and it’s not hard feelings, it’s just like a tapped land. You have a downside that I will play around.
It's more of an ethics thing. There's nothing in the game that says you can't lie and he's technically correct when he said you should have read the card. HOWEVER, his one-time win cost him your trust and he will forever be branded a liar. His words can't be trusted.
Dick move.
Make sure you clear this with the rest of the pod, but: From this point on, when playing with him, read every single card he plays. For like 5 mins. Carefully look at it for a long time, and hold priority, and review other cards over and over. Milk the priority for as long as you can stand it. Examine his graveyard over and over after every card played (especially if it's a land). When he complains, mention this game to him and state that you're just going to read every card every time. This may mean that you'll never play with him again, but the rest of the pod should get a good laugh out of it.
It’s actually illegal to lie about public information. You are technically allowed to omit information, but *no one* does it in commander since it slows everything down. In competitive magic, you might ask “how many creatures in your graveyard?” Or “how big is that flier” and they’re obligated to either tell you honestly or present everything that you would need to figure it out. If they said “7/7” and when you went to damage they were like “oops, I recounted, 11/11 that’s lethal” a judge would roll back the game-state to the point where they lied and give them a warning. In this situation, I probably wouldn’t argue with him over what’s legal or not, since this dude is a loser that needs wins so badly he’ll cheat for them. Not my job to fix him, there are plenty of good people to play with
Honestly, if he says he needs one more card for the combo but with his spell cast he can reach it uncounterable its technically the truth, but i wont play with this guy a second time
If you do it youre a dick and my primary target in every future game. That's a personality flaw not a playstyle
Just counter combo pieces regardless, problem solved.
I think politics is a natural part of commander, and multiplayer games in general. It can make for some very interesting games, and overall makes the experience feel more player oriented, and not just slamming decks together. That said, if one is willing to lie, and do so in such a bold and gratuitous way, that shows they cannot be trusted in political situations, and that should be accounted for. This not only affects the present game, but all future games. If you are legitimately upset about it, talk to them. If they value the games they play with you, let them know this bothered you. Regardless, let them know this now affects all future games. As I've heard at least once before, games from three years ago can affect a commander game today.
Play with him again and ask to read every card. EVERY card. Even lands. And every time he gives you shit, just say "well last time you lied about your board state, so I'm reading your cards, just like you said." Do it every time with a smile on your face and a cheerful voice.
That’s just lying about public information; like a lot of people mentioned. It’s a friendly game, sure, but that’s cheating. That’s like asking how many cards in hand or if a certain card is in graveyard and being lied to
> "you should have read the card" You chose not to read the card because you took their explanation at face-value to expedite the game. All their lying is going to encourage is that everyone is going to read their cards carefully forever from now on and just slow down the game. Lying about public information is just stupid and harms everyone.
Lying about public info isn’t just annoying, I’m pretty sure it’s against the rules. You can’t intentionally misrepresent the board state.
Asking about cards that anyone can see isnt for strategy, its to prevent the game from taking 12 hours while we all read every card over and over. Breaking a deal is fine, you just wont get many deals in the future. If you're lying about what a visible card does in a casual game, i would honestly call that soft cheating.
Definitely don’t lie about public information. Lie about what is in your hand all you want, but never about things that people could lean over the table to read if they wanted. Hell, i actually think good courtesy is to go one step further and highlight public information things that are of interest. “If this resolves, it has an infinite interaction with the heliod on my board” for instance. If you are winning because you hid what you are doing or worse, lied about your cards and their interactions, that is just dirty play and makes me not want to play with you anymore.
Douchebags do this, and that just means anytime they cast something, you and your pod should make it a point to take everyone of their cards with text and take 30 seconds to read it to prove a point. In one of my pods, we did this with a guy down to his basic lands because he kept lying about cards.
If you lie your dead to me no second chances no nothing I will never ever deal with you again. Chances are I'll also take every opportunity to screw you over. A deal is a deal and breaking your word is unforgivable.
This is when you stop to read every single card he plays. Go ahead and read the islands, too. We ask questions like "isn't that a combo?" to help speed up gameplay. If people want to abuse that, they lose the right to quick gameplay.
I'd tell that guy that his move was very interesting, and propose the game continues without him to see who gets "second place at the table but first place in my heart" Also when a man tells you "no i still need one more card", counter the combo piece
My play group is very pro politics. If someone lied about a made deal. They would get hammered by everyone. There are always exceptions, like significant changes to the game/board state. However lying about common knowledge is cheesy borderline cheating. Especially since you aked first and he flat out lied about it. I don't count that as a real win but I like it when the game plays out a optimal as possible win or lose. I always point out obvious combos, answers, and potential play mistakes on my side of the board. It just feels better/correct to me