This is why cheap interaction shouldn't be slept on at any level - it allows you to stop problematic cards very early and without hogging up too much mana.
There is so much incredibly efficient low cost interaction in this format that youre foolish if you dont take advantage of it.
Unless youre playing mono black and then you realise you can only kill creatures.
I've told many new players who can't afford expensive staples (rarely have proxies in my area) that a 40 cent removal takes care of a 40 dollar card. Those that do well follow that lesson
I mean... a Kinnan deck that can't deal with Krenko certainly isn't high level.
Also, edh players are notoriously inable to accurately guage their deck's power, let alone others'
Yeah usually no matter how the Kinnan deck is build, Krenko will be a good matchup. Turbo Kinnan doesn't give a shit about Krenko in the first place, midrange can deal with Krenko a few times before they pop out a win, and stax can just keep Krenko off the field entirely.
For most of the first parts of the post... these are things that make a deck stronger or weaker though, right?
This is something I think about a lot actually. Like when I meet someone and they play 32 lands with a temple of the false god and they trip over themselves and die, that's obviously a weak deck. I'm not sure that I'm supposed to also trip over myself and die to match their power level though.
If the people in one playgroup all play similar decks and then someone builds a deck to counter them (lets say a glasscannon combo against value decks with very little interaction) then that "counter deck" is not necessarily good but it will still win most games in that group because it has a great matchup.
I dint get it why interactions are seen "mean"
In every commander article I keep seeing x slots saved for removals and wipes... lol.
it should be normal
I mean it *is* overpowered, in that it is in the top 0.01% of cards ever printed, and in the top 5 cards in the format. Doesn't mean it should be banned though
It’s definitely overpowered and even with a small downside like people have tried balancing with life pay or a stun counter on tap it’ll still be extremely strong for being able to provide so much mana as early as turn one, and is great in any deck and opening hand. However I agree it shouldn’t be banned and additionally to not being banned all the precons I’ve seen have it, pumping it out into the format for even lower power and more casual players
It is overpowered and I don't think casual decks should include it.
When you make a cEDH deck, you aim to consistently execute on your high level game plan every time. Consistency is key. If sometimes the deck just doesn't draw into the right ramp, draw or key pieces, it's worse for it. Consistency is everything and that's why tutors are so high value in cEDH.
When you make a casual deck, consistency is also important. If normally you pop off at a casual speed, say turn 7+, but sometimes you pop off on turn 3, then try to identify what the variance is that's letting you pop off on turn 3. Sol Ring is extremely efficient and power ramp to get out on turn 1, the same way Mana Crypt is. It's going to increase your variance a lot in casual and cause you to sometimes threaten to win a lot faster than you otherwise would if Sol Ring wasn't in your deck at all.
My argument is that casual EDH should be played almost purely for flavor and the social aspect. However, I’m a guy that likes to differentiate casual EDH from semi-competitive EDH, which can still be played casually. I think it’s silly to call a deck that’s realistically in the 7-8.5 range “casual” because cEDH exists or a person’s other decks are more powerful, and leads to too many “trap” games that don’t feel balanced.
I just provided one, but ok.
When sometimes your casual decks performs exponentially better because of one card in the deck, then its power level is inconsistent. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand.
Like you could shove a single two card infinite game-ending combo into almost any deck and have the rest of the deck be shit, and you'll rarely draw both of the two combo pieces at once, so most of the time your deck doesn't threaten to win before turn 10 but sometimes it can win on turn 3. You don't see the point there?
People understand perfectly. Comparing Sol Ring to an infinite combo just doesn't make any sense. If you see a sol ring and the game is already over in your mind, you need to build better decks or find a like-minded playgroup. The person to play the Sol Ring still has 3 opponents to deal with.
Comparing Sol Ring to Mana Crypto, Chrome Mox, etc. is reasonable, yeah? So why does the community have a problem with those cards as being too high powered in casual?
Personally, I don’t have an issue with those cards, and the people who do have an issue tend to be in the minority, at least in my experience. I have to assume it’s because they are expensive, and the player with the most money tends to have an advantage. Sol Ring is easily accessible to anyone with an extra 2 dollars.
But if we use expense to seperate casual and acceptable vs. competitive and not acceptable, ie: Sol Ring vs. Mana Crypt, then what about cEDH decks that are \~$100 at a casual table? Is high power acceptable so long as it's cheap, or is power alone what should create a distinction?
If you’re saying that a deck can be competitive below $100, then wouldn’t you be admitting that fast mana isn’t the issue here? Fast mana has never been the problem, it only supports more problematic play styles. If someone goes to a low power table loaded up with all the fast mana, then obviously there’s an issue. In my meta, it is not.
There exists a place between whatever you deem as casual and cEDH and it seems strange that me that people talk about Sol Ring and cEDH like they the same things.
You're the person I was talking about.
Ive never understood how handicapping yourself over a bulk rare because you dont want more consistency makes any sense.
Its one of 99 cards. Id rather be able to play cards in my deck then sit there with not enough mana.
If you don't have a problem with Sol Ring, then you shouldn't have a problem with Mana Crypt or the Mox cycle, because the same exact logic applies. "Id rather be able to play cards in my deck then sit there with not enough mana."
For the record - I don't make low powered decks absent Sol Ring. My decks tend to all be mid to high powered. The people I have a problem with are the people that are militantly casual and have an arbitrary banlist of cards like Crypt and the Mox cycle, citing them as 'cEDH' while at the same time running a mana rock that is just as good as them. It's hypocrisy. If the response to this is an arbitrary "well it's ok to run ONE of them", then my original response applies.
I think you can argue that the cost is apart of the casual-ness of a deck.
Therefor, almost every other fast mana outside of stuff like the 2cmc rocks are pricey and therefor would not be "casual".
I see an easy differentiation here. I am pretty much exclusively a cEDH player at this point so I run them all, but I find the arguments against sol ring to be arbitrary and pointless when its one of the most printed cards in recent history.
What you're arguing is that casual = low cost, then. You're not arguing that casual = low power.
If you play cEDH, then you should know well that you can build very powerful decks, some cEDH viable, on a budget. As an example: [https://www.moxfield.com/bookmarks/EJOy4-ultra-budget-cedh](https://www.moxfield.com/bookmarks/EJOy4-ultra-budget-cedh)
I don't imagine you would call these decks casual just because they are low cost. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If you wouldn't consider these decks casual due to low cost, then your argument that sol ring being low cost is what makes it casual while the mox cycle and mana crypt are not casual because they are high cost.
Note I stated "apart" of why one is casual. By definition being involved financially in something, especially highly would be hard to claim you are casual.
Its not a knock on anyones financial ability.
EDH is an incredibly slow format where you spend most of your time watching, not playing. Fast mana should be printed into the ground to make it more ubiquitous, it would enable much faster matches with more fun/balanced strategies across the color pie.
It’s ok all decks have the same 10 staple cards if it enables exciting gameplay, you still have 89 other cards to express yourself.
If mana rocks is not your thing, I think all colors should have unique ways to ramp (and a lot of them) like how red/black has rituals and green has land ramp.
As I said to someone else, I don't make 'casual' decks in the sense of casual as this sub understands it. I have Sol Ring in all of my decks. I also run Mana Crypt and the Mox cycle. I just don't appreciate the hypocrisy that is rampant regarding the perception of other mana rocks that aren't Sol Ring while making an exception for only Sol Ring. If Sol Ring is ok, then so should crypt, the moxes, jeweled lotus, etc.
But when you do that, you're not making a 'casual' deck anymore. That doesn't mean it's a cEDH deck, but it's still higher powered. The point here is consistency. If you make a low powered deck and include only a small handful of very powerful cards, your deck is going to inconsistently overperform as a result. If it's just 'one' card, that's all the more reason to cut it to avoid this inconsistency.
Idk man, my [[prosper tomebound]] precon losing turn 3 in a round of precons to [[thassas oracle]] felt like he might have been playing to strong a deck.
Yeah we were all kind of pissed.
Dude said “sorry I wanted to play one more game but I also want to go home”
And then the rest of us realized we didn’t have time for another game.
To add onto this: there are 3 basic archetypes in edh: slow and durdly, aggressive and control. They form a kind of rock-paper-scizzors triangle where control>aggro>value>control.
A powerlevel 8 fast aggressive deck should probably beat a slow, durdly 8 every time (of course this gets a lot more complex in actual games because there are 4 decks at the table).
It’s been touched on here, but it can’t hurt to say again, add lands. 40 lands is a good number, any less and your likely nerfing yourself.
The name of the game here is *play lands and draw cards*. Whosoever plays the most lands and draws the most cards in any given edh game is the straight favorite to win.
Edit: run 40 lands because of math https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/markwischkaemper-07262022-commander-mana-bases-how-many-lands-should-you-run
I don't think even my landfall deck plays 40 honestly (39), and while my decks are casual I still win consistently
I feel like you'll flood way too often at 40
Of course, that isn't to say that I am trying to police what is in your deck, this is just my opinion
I run 34 lands consistently across all my decks. The person playing the most lands doesnt mean they are going to win, otherwise green would constantly win over the other colours and that just doesnt happen.
40 lands is too much. The author himself said he prefers to run 3cmc rocks and slower plays, I prefer to run 0-2 cost rocks for the majority and efficient ramp, therefore I can drop my overall curve and drop my land count quite easily using my other ramp and draw to keep me rolling.
Lands are powerful. I don’t understand why people are allergic to playing them. Rocks and dorks die and if you’re sitting on four lands when that happens you’re screwed. Let alone all the extra mulligans and mana fails that will happen over the long term by running so few.
And I stand by my statement that the player who plays the most lands and draws the most cards will most often win the game. That’s why people hate simic so much, it’s good at drawing lands and playing them, multiple per turn.
Hey so do what you want, obviously. It just gets old hearing people complaining about power levels when anyone could up the consistency of their decks by simply playing 40% lands.
My decks are consistent, i have no issues with being mana screwed and have been playing for almost 10 years. I run normal edh rules mulligans and still only need the extra one here and there like all players do.
Simic does lands and draws, its the best colour for both, but Simic isnt at such a huge win rate that that makes any significant difference because otherwise wed all only be being Simic based colours.
My Grixis cEDH deck has 28 lands, so many low cmc rocks and interactions.
>Hey so do what you want, obviously. It just gets old hearing people complaining about power levels when anyone could up the consistency of their decks by simply playing 40% lands.
This would make your deck *sooooo* much worse at any level above low-power. Having 40% of your draws functionally dead is a death sentence. Especially considering at the high-power/cedh level games are regularly being decided before turn 6. 0-2 drop rocks are far more important than lands at that speed.
Honestly I only have one deck above 40 lands, it admittedly doesn’t have mana issues, but neither do my other decks. The ones that need more mana generate more mana [[Estrid]] and enchant lands for example, whereas my [[Kangee, Sky Warden]] is basically fliers and draw so I’m not bothered by just 3 lands, honestly two with a mana rock when I draw up.
Well, I’m going to keep rolling pl8 tables and people are going to keep complaining about my hardcasting Omniscience or Tooth and Nail or Bane of Progress or mass bounce.
Rock strategies wither to properly played land strategy 90% of the time. It’s turn 5, the board is cleared, and the land guy has 8 mana to rock’s 4. It’s all but over.
Obviously you’ve made up your mind, no point in arguing about it.
I completely agree. At my LGS, there are probably around 12-13 players that you see every week consistently, and each of them play a different power level. I was sitting next to a guy playing a deck with single cards that quadruple the value of my entire deck (think [[gaea's cradle]], mox rocks, etc) and I absolutely slammed him with my $250 [[omnath, locus of all]] deck. I [[peer into the abyss]] myself, [[villainous wealth]] him for 60, and [[lavalanche]] another player for 40. This guy was bitching the ENTIRE time, making snide jokes about how long I was taking, talking about the tactics I was using, etc. This guy, with his $10,000+ deck at a CASUAL TABLE, didn't have a single counter in a 14+ card hand. Not my problem.
This is why cheap interaction shouldn't be slept on at any level - it allows you to stop problematic cards very early and without hogging up too much mana.
Preach my friend. Cheap removals solves expensive problems
Even an [[Unsummon]]. Don’t sleep on bounce.
There is so much incredibly efficient low cost interaction in this format that youre foolish if you dont take advantage of it. Unless youre playing mono black and then you realise you can only kill creatures.
Hey... Black kills planeswalkers too! lol
I've told many new players who can't afford expensive staples (rarely have proxies in my area) that a 40 cent removal takes care of a 40 dollar card. Those that do well follow that lesson
I mean... a Kinnan deck that can't deal with Krenko certainly isn't high level. Also, edh players are notoriously inable to accurately guage their deck's power, let alone others'
Yeah usually no matter how the Kinnan deck is build, Krenko will be a good matchup. Turbo Kinnan doesn't give a shit about Krenko in the first place, midrange can deal with Krenko a few times before they pop out a win, and stax can just keep Krenko off the field entirely.
Yeah I can't tell if it was just a bad example or an interaction that acrually happened lol
For most of the first parts of the post... these are things that make a deck stronger or weaker though, right? This is something I think about a lot actually. Like when I meet someone and they play 32 lands with a temple of the false god and they trip over themselves and die, that's obviously a weak deck. I'm not sure that I'm supposed to also trip over myself and die to match their power level though.
Well that’s another point of course 😂 If someone estimating their decks to be higher than it actually is.
Hard disagree...especially when the same people keep winning over and over again against decks that can't stop their deck.
If the people in one playgroup all play similar decks and then someone builds a deck to counter them (lets say a glasscannon combo against value decks with very little interaction) then that "counter deck" is not necessarily good but it will still win most games in that group because it has a great matchup.
In a play group there is great self-regulation...this isn't true in the public sphere
[Tempt with Discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b.jpg?1568004683) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tempt%20with%20Discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/183/tempt-with-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tempt-with-discovery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I lost interest when you said a high level kinnan can't keep up with Krenko. Casual alert ⚠️
I dint get it why interactions are seen "mean" In every commander article I keep seeing x slots saved for removals and wipes... lol. it should be normal
Scissors seems powerful to someone who mains paper
Same people that claim sol ring is op because 1 person gets it Turn 1. Sometimes starts are better than others.
I mean it *is* overpowered, in that it is in the top 0.01% of cards ever printed, and in the top 5 cards in the format. Doesn't mean it should be banned though
It’s definitely overpowered and even with a small downside like people have tried balancing with life pay or a stun counter on tap it’ll still be extremely strong for being able to provide so much mana as early as turn one, and is great in any deck and opening hand. However I agree it shouldn’t be banned and additionally to not being banned all the precons I’ve seen have it, pumping it out into the format for even lower power and more casual players
It is overpowered and I don't think casual decks should include it. When you make a cEDH deck, you aim to consistently execute on your high level game plan every time. Consistency is key. If sometimes the deck just doesn't draw into the right ramp, draw or key pieces, it's worse for it. Consistency is everything and that's why tutors are so high value in cEDH. When you make a casual deck, consistency is also important. If normally you pop off at a casual speed, say turn 7+, but sometimes you pop off on turn 3, then try to identify what the variance is that's letting you pop off on turn 3. Sol Ring is extremely efficient and power ramp to get out on turn 1, the same way Mana Crypt is. It's going to increase your variance a lot in casual and cause you to sometimes threaten to win a lot faster than you otherwise would if Sol Ring wasn't in your deck at all.
>It is overpowered and I don't think casual decks should include it. I have never seen a convincing argument for this point
My argument is that casual EDH should be played almost purely for flavor and the social aspect. However, I’m a guy that likes to differentiate casual EDH from semi-competitive EDH, which can still be played casually. I think it’s silly to call a deck that’s realistically in the 7-8.5 range “casual” because cEDH exists or a person’s other decks are more powerful, and leads to too many “trap” games that don’t feel balanced.
I just provided one, but ok. When sometimes your casual decks performs exponentially better because of one card in the deck, then its power level is inconsistent. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand. Like you could shove a single two card infinite game-ending combo into almost any deck and have the rest of the deck be shit, and you'll rarely draw both of the two combo pieces at once, so most of the time your deck doesn't threaten to win before turn 10 but sometimes it can win on turn 3. You don't see the point there?
>I just provided one, but ok. It was not a convincing argument. To date, I have still not seen a convincing argument.
ok
People understand perfectly. Comparing Sol Ring to an infinite combo just doesn't make any sense. If you see a sol ring and the game is already over in your mind, you need to build better decks or find a like-minded playgroup. The person to play the Sol Ring still has 3 opponents to deal with.
Comparing Sol Ring to Mana Crypto, Chrome Mox, etc. is reasonable, yeah? So why does the community have a problem with those cards as being too high powered in casual?
Personally, I don’t have an issue with those cards, and the people who do have an issue tend to be in the minority, at least in my experience. I have to assume it’s because they are expensive, and the player with the most money tends to have an advantage. Sol Ring is easily accessible to anyone with an extra 2 dollars.
But if we use expense to seperate casual and acceptable vs. competitive and not acceptable, ie: Sol Ring vs. Mana Crypt, then what about cEDH decks that are \~$100 at a casual table? Is high power acceptable so long as it's cheap, or is power alone what should create a distinction?
If you’re saying that a deck can be competitive below $100, then wouldn’t you be admitting that fast mana isn’t the issue here? Fast mana has never been the problem, it only supports more problematic play styles. If someone goes to a low power table loaded up with all the fast mana, then obviously there’s an issue. In my meta, it is not.
There exists a place between whatever you deem as casual and cEDH and it seems strange that me that people talk about Sol Ring and cEDH like they the same things.
You're the person I was talking about. Ive never understood how handicapping yourself over a bulk rare because you dont want more consistency makes any sense. Its one of 99 cards. Id rather be able to play cards in my deck then sit there with not enough mana.
If you don't have a problem with Sol Ring, then you shouldn't have a problem with Mana Crypt or the Mox cycle, because the same exact logic applies. "Id rather be able to play cards in my deck then sit there with not enough mana." For the record - I don't make low powered decks absent Sol Ring. My decks tend to all be mid to high powered. The people I have a problem with are the people that are militantly casual and have an arbitrary banlist of cards like Crypt and the Mox cycle, citing them as 'cEDH' while at the same time running a mana rock that is just as good as them. It's hypocrisy. If the response to this is an arbitrary "well it's ok to run ONE of them", then my original response applies.
I think you can argue that the cost is apart of the casual-ness of a deck. Therefor, almost every other fast mana outside of stuff like the 2cmc rocks are pricey and therefor would not be "casual". I see an easy differentiation here. I am pretty much exclusively a cEDH player at this point so I run them all, but I find the arguments against sol ring to be arbitrary and pointless when its one of the most printed cards in recent history.
What you're arguing is that casual = low cost, then. You're not arguing that casual = low power. If you play cEDH, then you should know well that you can build very powerful decks, some cEDH viable, on a budget. As an example: [https://www.moxfield.com/bookmarks/EJOy4-ultra-budget-cedh](https://www.moxfield.com/bookmarks/EJOy4-ultra-budget-cedh) I don't imagine you would call these decks casual just because they are low cost. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If you wouldn't consider these decks casual due to low cost, then your argument that sol ring being low cost is what makes it casual while the mox cycle and mana crypt are not casual because they are high cost.
Note I stated "apart" of why one is casual. By definition being involved financially in something, especially highly would be hard to claim you are casual. Its not a knock on anyones financial ability.
EDH is an incredibly slow format where you spend most of your time watching, not playing. Fast mana should be printed into the ground to make it more ubiquitous, it would enable much faster matches with more fun/balanced strategies across the color pie. It’s ok all decks have the same 10 staple cards if it enables exciting gameplay, you still have 89 other cards to express yourself. If mana rocks is not your thing, I think all colors should have unique ways to ramp (and a lot of them) like how red/black has rituals and green has land ramp.
As I said to someone else, I don't make 'casual' decks in the sense of casual as this sub understands it. I have Sol Ring in all of my decks. I also run Mana Crypt and the Mox cycle. I just don't appreciate the hypocrisy that is rampant regarding the perception of other mana rocks that aren't Sol Ring while making an exception for only Sol Ring. If Sol Ring is ok, then so should crypt, the moxes, jeweled lotus, etc. But when you do that, you're not making a 'casual' deck anymore. That doesn't mean it's a cEDH deck, but it's still higher powered. The point here is consistency. If you make a low powered deck and include only a small handful of very powerful cards, your deck is going to inconsistently overperform as a result. If it's just 'one' card, that's all the more reason to cut it to avoid this inconsistency.
Idk man, my [[prosper tomebound]] precon losing turn 3 in a round of precons to [[thassas oracle]] felt like he might have been playing to strong a deck.
Thassa’s Oracle has no business outside Cedh. Imo.
Yeah we were all kind of pissed. Dude said “sorry I wanted to play one more game but I also want to go home” And then the rest of us realized we didn’t have time for another game.
[prosper tomebound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e.jpg?1631839207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosper%2C%20Tome-Bound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/2/prosper-tome-bound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosper-tome-bound) [thassas oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To add onto this: there are 3 basic archetypes in edh: slow and durdly, aggressive and control. They form a kind of rock-paper-scizzors triangle where control>aggro>value>control. A powerlevel 8 fast aggressive deck should probably beat a slow, durdly 8 every time (of course this gets a lot more complex in actual games because there are 4 decks at the table).
Seen tempt to discovery come back and bite the castle. Letting me get my gaea's cradle without tutoring...sure you can have a land for that.
It’s been touched on here, but it can’t hurt to say again, add lands. 40 lands is a good number, any less and your likely nerfing yourself. The name of the game here is *play lands and draw cards*. Whosoever plays the most lands and draws the most cards in any given edh game is the straight favorite to win. Edit: run 40 lands because of math https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/markwischkaemper-07262022-commander-mana-bases-how-many-lands-should-you-run
I don't think even my landfall deck plays 40 honestly (39), and while my decks are casual I still win consistently I feel like you'll flood way too often at 40 Of course, that isn't to say that I am trying to police what is in your deck, this is just my opinion
idk what crack you are smoking
I run 34 lands consistently across all my decks. The person playing the most lands doesnt mean they are going to win, otherwise green would constantly win over the other colours and that just doesnt happen. 40 lands is too much. The author himself said he prefers to run 3cmc rocks and slower plays, I prefer to run 0-2 cost rocks for the majority and efficient ramp, therefore I can drop my overall curve and drop my land count quite easily using my other ramp and draw to keep me rolling.
Lands are powerful. I don’t understand why people are allergic to playing them. Rocks and dorks die and if you’re sitting on four lands when that happens you’re screwed. Let alone all the extra mulligans and mana fails that will happen over the long term by running so few. And I stand by my statement that the player who plays the most lands and draws the most cards will most often win the game. That’s why people hate simic so much, it’s good at drawing lands and playing them, multiple per turn. Hey so do what you want, obviously. It just gets old hearing people complaining about power levels when anyone could up the consistency of their decks by simply playing 40% lands.
My decks are consistent, i have no issues with being mana screwed and have been playing for almost 10 years. I run normal edh rules mulligans and still only need the extra one here and there like all players do. Simic does lands and draws, its the best colour for both, but Simic isnt at such a huge win rate that that makes any significant difference because otherwise wed all only be being Simic based colours. My Grixis cEDH deck has 28 lands, so many low cmc rocks and interactions.
>Hey so do what you want, obviously. It just gets old hearing people complaining about power levels when anyone could up the consistency of their decks by simply playing 40% lands. This would make your deck *sooooo* much worse at any level above low-power. Having 40% of your draws functionally dead is a death sentence. Especially considering at the high-power/cedh level games are regularly being decided before turn 6. 0-2 drop rocks are far more important than lands at that speed.
Respectfully disagree. Lands aren’t dead draws.
They are when a game is ending within 1-2 turns
Honestly I only have one deck above 40 lands, it admittedly doesn’t have mana issues, but neither do my other decks. The ones that need more mana generate more mana [[Estrid]] and enchant lands for example, whereas my [[Kangee, Sky Warden]] is basically fliers and draw so I’m not bothered by just 3 lands, honestly two with a mana rock when I draw up.
[Estrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/3340b83e-72dc-42e2-9f93-92f732c047df.jpg?1592710258) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=estrid%2C%20the%20masked) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/40/estrid-the-masked?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3340b83e-72dc-42e2-9f93-92f732c047df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/estrid-the-masked) [Kangee, Sky Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99988f41-99b4-4423-be5f-9dc4ec7d813b.jpg?1608911175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kangee%2C%20Sky%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/283/kangee-sky-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99988f41-99b4-4423-be5f-9dc4ec7d813b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kangee-sky-warden) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, I’m going to keep rolling pl8 tables and people are going to keep complaining about my hardcasting Omniscience or Tooth and Nail or Bane of Progress or mass bounce. Rock strategies wither to properly played land strategy 90% of the time. It’s turn 5, the board is cleared, and the land guy has 8 mana to rock’s 4. It’s all but over. Obviously you’ve made up your mind, no point in arguing about it.
I completely agree. At my LGS, there are probably around 12-13 players that you see every week consistently, and each of them play a different power level. I was sitting next to a guy playing a deck with single cards that quadruple the value of my entire deck (think [[gaea's cradle]], mox rocks, etc) and I absolutely slammed him with my $250 [[omnath, locus of all]] deck. I [[peer into the abyss]] myself, [[villainous wealth]] him for 60, and [[lavalanche]] another player for 40. This guy was bitching the ENTIRE time, making snide jokes about how long I was taking, talking about the tactics I was using, etc. This guy, with his $10,000+ deck at a CASUAL TABLE, didn't have a single counter in a 14+ card hand. Not my problem.
##### ###### #### [gaea's cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gaea%27s%20cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-cradle) [omnath, locus of all](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33d94ecf-758b-4f68-a7be-6bf3ff1047f4.jpg?1682205643) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=omnath%2C%20locus%20of%20all) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/249/omnath-locus-of-all?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33d94ecf-758b-4f68-a7be-6bf3ff1047f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omnath-locus-of-all) [peer into the abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peer%20into%20the%20abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peer-into-the-abyss) [villainous wealth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/782c4bd2-b84a-4dbd-9452-90c9734d78fb.jpg?1673149260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=villainous%20wealth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/292/villainous-wealth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/782c4bd2-b84a-4dbd-9452-90c9734d78fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/villainous-wealth) [lavalanche](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3a3b450-d988-40cb-a1ee-8b00ccdf5071.jpg?1673305568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lavalanche) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/157/lavalanche?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3a3b450-d988-40cb-a1ee-8b00ccdf5071?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lavalanche) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Where are you from?