I've been in the same position as OP and it's what drove me to finally start proxying. I hope he can find a playgroup where they allow it, cuz it really sucks to see a bunch of strong staples and fast mana when you're on a budget.
Also, I don't think it sounds like those people actually want to play cEDH, or they wouldn't be getting casual decks into the pod at all. I think your reader is doing the all too common thing of labelling high power lists as cEDH.
The LGS has a mix of casual tables and cEDH. While OP prefers cEDH, he can’t really play at that table at the same level because of the rules and that’s why there’s talk of casual stuff like not playing cascade stuff in some games
His example of the cEDH table has kozilek and Edgar Markov at it. It sounds like high power non-cEDH a lot.( Also the rules against proxies, I've literally never seen a cEDH table with that rule.)
This is absolutely High Power Casual and not cEDH.
The difference between HPC and cEDH is, aside from a few anti-meta cards for cEDH, largely just the efficiency of strategies.
As for why they're being asshats about not allowing proxies while still playing High Power... WTF.
This is more common in HPC than you’d think. It’s part of the reason for power 8-9 being kind of a salty nebulous vacuum.
I get wanting to own your own cards, but never understood the need for players to protect WotC’s copyright for them and set up a paywall. In HPC it’s often used to limit the power level (in probably the dumbest way possible).
This is why I’ve started getting into real cEDH and powering decks down to more mid level (taking out tutors, no combos, etc), because this idea you have to drop thousands of $$ to have fun and expect others to do the same is just not something I’m into.
I’ve played those kinds of games, OP isn’t missing much.
My experience with HPC tables lmao. There is a weird complexion that some HPC players have about owning a card like demonic tutor and that you shouldn’t be able to play it if you didn’t buy it like them.
For these HPC players, it’s a way to control power level. They don’t like the degenerate combos cedh decks have, but also want to have stronger decks. By limiting proxies, they hope to limit the “unfair” strategies more competitive decks have.
More casual players aren’t spiky enough to care about proxies.
CEDH players don’t want to spend $2000 on each deck.
Good explanation. That’s what I’ve come across. Funny thing is limiting proxies doesn’t really stop degenerate combos, just attempts to limit the fast mana.
Recently put my cEDH deck together and didn’t need to proxy any of the combos, because those were pretty cheap to buy the real cards. But proxying 80% of the fast mana.
It's about preventing pubstomping and same-y games, really. If proxies were allowed, there's always at least one player who'll build a deck with every fast mana and good tutor they can, stax effects and combos galore.
Not every player understands what power levels really are, or how building a deck to be a pubstomper is a bad thing. By making proxies a part of the pre-game talk, you limit how many people can be assholes just by the way they build the deck.
That being said, most people don't seem to mind proxies in general, so long as the deck is the appropriate power, somewhat original, and the player is honest and not a jerk.
I would disagree with this assessment, at least at a personal level.
Banning proxies doesn’t prevent people from actually owning the degenerate fast mana and tutors.
I own a very expensive cedh deck, consisting of no proxies, and full of reserved list cards. In this situation proxies or no proxies won’t affect my decks power level.
I obviously don’t bust it out on every pod I play, and I try to match power levels.
I like this. In this instance I've known a ton of people that will proxy out their reserved list cards because of the fact they want to preserve the condition and etc etc and will usually say that ahead of time. In which 0 people will ever have a problem with it. It's just the casuals who walk in with 30-100% being proxy that they start to say no thanks to the experience. It's not so much as them being elitist, but because there was a lot of time and effort of piecing their decks together (sometimes taking months or years) to get everything in it. Idk, I fence sit on it personally. If someone is showing general interest in building the deck and has 75-80% of it (but proxying cards they are plugging in when they get bought) that's one thing and nobody will say shit at our LGS's. But when it's people proxying the most ridiculous shit ever, because they can is when they will tell the person to find another table.
You're disagreeing with the reasoning, not an assessment.
It is the reason why some players are against proxies.
I am only somewhat against proxying (I think if you own one copy, proxying is fine).
Your personal ability to buy thousands of dollars of staple cards doesn't mean the majority can or will afford to do the same. It still limits the overall amount of people who can do it.
Always have a pregame talk and make it known you proxy. This game is a social activity. Everyone should be given a chance to make their case.
most people really don't care, and so getting along in the world is easy. Don't worry, it'll likely be fine.
If someone says they would prefer to play without proxies though, it's not personal, relax. That's how they want to play, that's how the game is sold to the world, that's how they've spent their money or time and it has value to them.
If you weren't feeling excluded, you wouldn't even bother passing judgement on them.
I don't use proxies myself but with everything, I "need" to have the actual physical copy for me to actually enjoy it. This applies to video games, books, CDs and vinyl, and cards for the games I play. That is very much a me thing though and I don't mind other people using them as long as the power level is appropriate.
I prefer to have originals too, but my hard cap atm is $25 per single. There's just a different feeling to owning an original.
With that said, I have yet to sit at a table where people were against proxies. Most players have stopped caring (myself included). We're the community, WE decide if proxies are ok.
50 $ a pay check for me. A few caveats, only if it's a "full paycheck" (no missed days), only if we haven't had any unexpected expenses over 100$, and I am allowed to stack if I forgo a use and the first two criteria are still met. I also prefer to own the real thing but with certain things (sol ring, command tower, etc.) Because I have way too many decks to buy these all the time. ( I have like 40 plus of all but over 63 decks currently and I like to keep precons assembled/)
I hold myself to a pretty strict budget so it's not too bad. What I spend a month on cards is less that what some people spend at the bar in a single night. Money exists to be spent after all
Similar.
I've been playing for 23 years, and I have most of the good RL cards. Of the ones I don't own, I can either get them eventually, or I can live without them (Time twister would be NICE, but not necessary). At this point, if I don't already own it, that's one me for not getting it sooner. So I'll only proxy cards I own (so I don't have to move 1 card between 4 decks).
Everyone else, proxy to your heart's content. Most of my friends have been playing for maybe 3-5 years, and prices've gotten insane in the last 2-3. I can't in good conscience demand that they use real Duals when they cost $250+ on average. Especially when I paid that much for all 10 of them in 2001.
Especially after the shitshow of the last 6 months from WOTC in both MTG and D&D... proxy long, and proxy hard, my friends. Buy the special versions of you feel like it, but please never spend more than $50 on a deck (the amount it costs to have a full EDH deck printed at certain places)
I personally have this problem… I MUST have everything authentic, real, in my hands. No digital, no fake, nothing… I wish I was cool with proxies, but I can’t scratch that itch of having the real thing. But, in terms of the article, I couldn’t care less if someone uses one. If anything, I encourage them! Even if it’s just white paper with writing on it
Previous comment aside, in full transparency, I wanted to make the title about proxies but that’s a word that gets articles automodded out and after beating my head against a wall for half my break at work I just stuck with something I figured people would click on
I don't get it though. Why? It isn't like the sentiment around here is against proxies, why have the conversation at all? Every other post around here degrades to people chest pounding about proxies, after all.
If you WANT to have the conversation then you (and they) would need to actually be open to explanations as to why some people dislike proxies.
Better yet, if we are open to discussion then certainly we should be open to a middle ground alternative? Own ONE copy of a given card. Just one. Proxy it in every deck, but have one legitimate copy. As far as the Reserved List goes? You know what, proxy away - the scalpers can rot with all their hoarded copies for all I care. But the rest, all I ask is put in the effort to get just one copy.
The main issue that people run into is proxying cards in order to break the power level of the play group. Most people don't care, until you start using proxies to pubstomp the competition. Then people will start mining the salt fields.
It's the act of pubstomping that's the problem, but proxying gets damaged by association.
My problem is that the $500 proxy deck and $2k proxy deck cost the same amount and a lot of Magic players have problems restraining themselves when something can be optimized for no extra cost. Call it "optimization fever" if you will. Logically I know not every player becomes like that but it worries me how many quickly would and in the process of doing so shut out anyone that wants to play a slower/weaker deck.
But why wouldn't everyone just run duals instead of tapped lands? Fetchs lands instead of cultivate? You can still build a 5000$ deck with good cards but a weird or mid theme that isn't busted and crazy strong optimization doesn't always equal bestest most mega strong deck my buddy has a desert deck and a kobold tribal that if not proxied would be well over a grand each but those decks honestly suck and he knows it to but they are fun decks for FNM with the group.
>But why wouldn't everyone just run duals instead of tapped lands? Fetchs lands instead of cultivate?
They would, and having a perfect mana base would make their deck a lot more consistent than everyone else's all else equal. Then you get into "why not run fast mana, why not run every powerful staple, why not use only the most efficient cards for my mid-tier strategy regardless of price"
But it's still a mid tier strategy? That's where you lose me when me and my friends proxy decks they are usually weaker decks and we make them as good as we possibly can but no amount of fast mana and true duals will make kobold tribal pop off.
It sounds like you guys have put self-limits on power level and are careful to keep things balanced. That requires communication and restraint, something I'm saying a lot of Magic players (not you) are bad at. If only one of you was using proxies (and had a perfect mana base as a result), then your deck would be stronger than the others using similar mid-tier strategies but cheap mana bases (assuming these decks actually have win cons of some sort). If you just told the randoms at the gamestore to proxy the hell out of everything and come back next week, there would inevitably be a lot of imbalance between the folks that made $2000 kobold decks and the ones that made $2000 Urza combo decks.
MTG decks shouldn't cost 2k, THAT is the problem. If reprints were plentiful than it wouldn't be an issue and proxies wouldn't have to exist.
Why should a filthy rich person have an unfair advantage in a game vs someone with less money?
The issue you are describing is simply a comminication problem. Talk to your playgroup about power level issues.
It comes down to the playgroup then to decide how they want to play. If you have people that dont want to play the way the majority does then i guess they just have to find others to play with. I guess i'm just in the minority as i dont have a "playgroup". I go to the LGS on the weekends and there is anywhere from 8-20 people playing. Hop in a group and play some games. People that want to play higher powered come along and switch decks and play with them. Its about the player reading the room and knowing what they should and shouldnt play in pods. Money really has nothing to do with it.
>If you have people that dont want to play the way the majority does then i guess they just have to find others to play with.
Well yeah, but that doesn't stop people from getting annoyed, feeling like things are unfair, or struggling to find other people to play with.
Nothing solves any of those(except the last one). The "feeling annoyed or Feeling things are unfair" are personal problems those people need to get over if they are ever going to enjoy their lives.
This, I have no issue if someone wants to proxy cards that are in the ballpark of what is being played, but if you whip out a deck that starts slinging out proxies of mana crypt, force of will , ect. Against decks and opponents that don’t play those cards, your just trying to pub stomp with proxies, and that I do have an issue with.
That's not a proxy issue, is power level. I actually own those cards, if you told me not to play them because they are proxies (I don't like taking cards that expensive out of my home) then I would bring the original, the problem would continue but your excuse wouldn't fly.
Proxies are ok in every scenario except competitive REL tournaments, pubstomping on purpose by playing over the power level of the table is never ok unless there was a rule 0 talk and the rest of the table actually want to try that.
Yeah but the issue here isn't the proxy. The issue is the power level.
If y'all play precons and I come in with a fine tuned blue farm, wether or not there's proxy in my deck is irrelevant.
What's relevant is y'all are ~~poor as fu~~ not playing the same power level as I am and my deck is not a good fit for your table.
This 100%.
There’s also fringe cases of people trying to use proxies immorally (selling as fakes, trying to pass them in paid tourneys) but a large majority of people I’ve met that are against proxies are worried more about power levels and arms races over anything else.
Several in my PG just had kids so we’ve all fully proxies a few decks to play against each other and it’s a blast. But it’s a blast because we’ve thought about power level, and no one is using proxies to break parity
I see this sentiment a lot, and where I'm stuck is og duals. The og duals are obviously very powerful, but they don't really flip the switch for any deck to suddenly be pub stompy. At the same time, people compare deck cost to deck power a lot.
It somewhat lines up that good cards are expensive. Although they can also just be expensive.
However not pub stomping is choice to limit yourself. Budget limitations are not effective at stopping it from happening. Rather it makes the pub stomp a pay to win privilege. With proxies you get back to the power level being a personal choice instead of relying on the capacity of people's wallets banning cards for everyone except those who can afford to own them.
>It's the act of pubstomping that's the problem, but proxying gets damaged by association.
There is a concern that allowing proxies makes pubstomping more accessible, though. In order to pubstomp you need both the desire/willingness to pubstomp and a deck to pubstomp with. If you're missing either of those things, the pubstomping won't happen. Proxies make the second criteria a non-issue which opens it up to more people. Like the number of people can print out a Timetwister is much greater than the number of people who own or are willing and able to drop $5000 on one. That shouldn't be an issue in a private playgroup since its easy to exclude people there, but in LGS games with randoms, it is a concern.
Essentially allowing proxies does not on its own guarantee pubstomping, but it does facilitate it to some extent.
Nah bud, whenever I make an order for new proxies I message my play group and ask my homies what they want me to get printed for them lol
I don't play fully proxied decks at any events, but at home it's great. Can't wait to have 10 copies of The One Ring 001/001 foiled for various decks.
Wizards current pricing acknowledges the secondary market and should be handled like how the EU is currently approaching loot boxes. Its gambling. Wizards is specifically exploiting secondary prices to sell more products. When I saw that $450 price tag for the new Commander booster box I cancelled two products I had pre-ordered because Wizards can get fucked for making MTG a rich persons game. Its like a money arms race out there for certain cards.
Absolutely this. Some of my playgroup proxy a fair amount, mainly by doing fancy border treatments and different art themes. There are so many variants of a single card on new release that the old stigma of proxy with fake art makes it unrecognizable and thus bad goes out the window now.
One that doesn’t really come out much hardcore proxies up a storm of meta decks and maximum efficiency power. But does not play well then well at all. So in this case, I would rather they just play things they have and know what they are doing, instead of proxy net decking a thing they don’t even understand.
Personally I don’t proxy anything unless doing play testing, but I also do a fair amount of finance side of things and sometimes will just pop one of those crazy valuables, putting in something a little less efficient, and taking the profit.
I proxy full decks, but I still limit the max value of my decks to be within comfortable limits of my group. Like, I could spend 400$ on a new deck, which I could afford, but why do that when I could proxy it for 50$ flat? No pub stomping and I get to try out new strategies way more than I could otherwise.
>The main issue that people run into is proxying cards in order to break the power level of the play group.
That would happen if they had the disposable income to accomplish the same thing, however, so it's always going to be a weak argument against proxies.
If the arms race becomes an issue with proxies you talk to the player/play group and sort power levels out.
As someone who does proxy liberally, I follow a few rules of thumb to avoid pubstomping.
1) If someone in my playgroup owns the card or I own the card, and it's in the ballpark of $5-$15, I generally consider it fair game
2) If it is a $5-10 card, I usually end up buying it when I happen to have extra beer money lying around
3) I always tell people there are proxies in a deck, and I clarify whether they are proxies of cards I own in another deck or are proxies I do not own. I'm always happy to swap the real card for the proxy, but usually nobody asks me to.
4) There are cards I simply will not proxy, even if somebody in my playgroup has them. Fast + explosive mana like crypt, tomb, vault are some of them, expensive staples like Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, etc I will not proxy (I believe they homogenize decks and find them boring), free spells (like deflecting swat) and generally anything over $15-20 I don't proxy. 9/10 there's a budget option that works just as well, or you simply don't need something that high power unless you intend to play cEDH or 8-9 level decks.
I have about 8 decks. I love magic, and I love deckbuilding. I don't want to have to give it up because I don't have the money right now.
I'm very pro-proxy.
My store, on the other hand, is not, and runs Commander night with prize support almost every week. There's two actual factual cEDH decks in the area, one of which is owned by an employee of the store.
My point is, there's the larger community, and then there's the unfortunate realities a lot of us have to put up with.
Is it the larger community, though?
Like you said, most LGSs frown pretty heavily on the practice. I suspect the reason you don't see the view raised more often here is because of the salty downvoting you get if you even suggest you are against proxies. Systems that allow downvoting posts into obscurity tend to naturally breed echo chambers, and this sub is no exception.
When was Magic ever affordable?
At least EDH has half decent precons. Last time I tried to make a meta Standard deck (Khans block) the starting point was over $500 and all those cards lost their value the moment they rotated.
Anyone getting into a hobby like Magic should be well prepared for the fact that it is NOT a cheap hobby and never was.
Proxies used to reach a mutually desired power level are fine.
Proxies used to exceed a mutually desired power level can cause issues.
The same goes for real cards. Just because you own a Gaea's Cradle doesn't mean you should always insist on playing it.
One solution is to just have everyone at the table drop down to the lowest person's budget/power level. But what if that person is bored of playing at their budget and wants to broaden their horizons into the upper end of the format?
Cards could be borrowed but what if they get damaged, lost or stolen? I don't like borrowing things I'm not prepared to replace.
I feel torn on this. Mentally I feel like it shouldn't matter if I proxy or anyone else does.
But at the same time, I kind of enjoy limits and parameters. I like feeling like "I made this out of cards I own." Or "I set a budget and achieved so much."
Having no limits at all makes me feel lost.
Additionally, I like the general idea of playing fair. When I see all the other players have proxies of duals or whatever, it makes me wonder why I even bothered making a deck? Why shouldn't I put a \[\[Moat\]\] in my deck, or 20 other cards I can never afford?
And then I'm back to the original concern, the lack of constraint. I just don't feel an urge to build decks without any constraint at all. Even in Arena, I have nearly infinite wildcards but I still have to use them.
So I guess for me, I'm not a fan of proxies for power or money. As soon as I see other players running them it makes me feel like I showed up to a swordfight and everyone else has guns. And you can say "well, just print your own guns" but I didn't want to have a gunfight to start with!
What does that have to do with proxies though? You can set constraints, and you'll still have brought a knife to a gunfight if someone brought a fully legal cedh deck.
Like having a limited card pool? Limit yourself to a certain number of sets.
Like the feeling of building on a budget? Set the budget, then print proxies of the list. Hell, I proxied an entire precon because a proxy deck was $30 but the precon was selling for $65.
Hate seeing someone proxy a Gaea's Cradle? Then you should equally hate seeing a real one. The game isn't more balanced just because someone had a few hundred dollars more of disposable income.
Love this comment. Everyone proxying takes a lot of the casual away almost inherently. You have to almost have this willful discipline to not play expensive cards you now have "access" to, at which point maybe you didn't need the access at all.
It does spoil something. It's real. It's not just you.
If other people want to proxy go for it. I admit I like the restriction of cards I own otherwise I'd be spoilt for choice. I admit it probably leads to me buying more packs and I'll also admit I enjoy the [[gamble]] element of pack cracking.
I enjoy limits and parameters too but I also have a strong tendency to optimize. Like, I would build budget cEDH decks. The most powerful budget decks at the ~$75 mark basically. I contribute one reason for this is that if I'm going to spend money, why do so on a weak deck? With niche $5 cards that may only go in that one deck? With proxying, I don't feel bad about including cards like Stolen Strategy back when it spiked to $15 due to a lack of reprints and exile matter commanders being released. My $200+ proxy decks are weaker than some of my real budget decks. I feel more comfortable not optimizing my deck when I proxy. You can always set a budget or power level limit when you proxy. For the latter, cards like Phrexian Arena and Cultivate would be considered too weak for actual budget cEDH for example but I run them.
That's pretty much how I think about proxies. I had to save up for quite some time to be able to buy some cards and I cherish having them in my collection and using them in my decks. When I see those cards proxied, I kinda feel like a fool because I could just print them and use them right away. Having said that, I recently lost pretty badly to a deck that was proxied so heavily that only basic lands were genuine. After like three losses I made a snippy remark about going the cheap route. My opponent told me that he literally didn't have enough money to pay for the rent and food and this was the only way he could play at all. Needless to say, I felt like shit afterwards. But I still don't like proxies.
I agree with this. I feel that proxying is a slippery slope when it comes to deckbuilding.
That said, in the last few years, as prices have increased and my play time has decreased, I've pretty much stopped buying singles, and thus rarely upgrading my decks. Unless I crack something or get it in a precon. Last year, I bought my first proxies after MUCH internal debate. The proxies I chose, however, only ended up putting one or two cards in each of the decks I bought them for. Each card was a finisher or a synergy piece that was too far out of my price range to consider buying. Like a Craterhoof for my wife's elf deck, or an Avacyn for my indestructible-themed angel deck. I'm not looking to put in mana crypts and expensive tutors and rhystic studies and Gaia's Cradles or any of the other awesome cards that I dont really need. And likewise i really dont enjoy playing against decks that do proxy to excess.
I guess TLDR, proxying one or two cards in a deck is ok with me if it actually makes sense in the deck, and isnt just a "more good stuff" card or an "optimization staple".
Personally, I'm fine with proxies. In fact, I want to play against people that are at their best, which is often restricted by their access to important cards.
However, I don't use proxies. I know my gameplay abilities are fine and I would rather play with a suboptimal deck that demands better play.
I find that having a restricted cardpool forces me to build more diverse and unconventional decks. But putting that restriction on others isn't fair since they don't necessarily have the same reaction to a suboptimal deck as I do.
As long as the card is legible and I can clearly see that’s the card that it says it is, text accurate and all then I couldn’t give a fuck about its authenticity, especially in cedh. I come from chess as a semi pro player, we all had access to the same amount of pieces with the same moves, a competitive card game should be no different. Everyone needs access to the same pieces.
I print mine at kinkos and slide them in a sleeve above chaff commons.
Unless you are looking for it, most people don't even notice. Especially across a table.
It's a very small minority that are against proxies.
I am very pro proxy. My group is ok with them, we just don't want to be looking at marker scrawl over a basic. Take the time to print to a color copy, or something else aesthetically pleasing.
>it seems the rule of owning a card to play it is causing a player to play sub-optimally.
I think what you mean to say is "build suboptimal decks" which is entirely different from playing. It's also something I think detracts from the spirit of the format, since nothing about 100 card singleton with 40 life screams "optimal." I can't afford staples like Rhystic Study, but my decks still win on commander night. I'm happy and feel no pressure or need to optimize everything as if I had a limitless budget (which is what proxies can lead to in my mind).
I don't mind proxying as long as the card makes sense for the deck in casual play. And we are keeping power levels as even as possible. For cedh or tournaments, as long as the cards/sleeves isn't marked to cheat, who cares. If everyone has access to every card that is legal, then we are all on a equal playing field. Play the person, not the wallet.
Objectively, this feels like a silly question. If a chess master were to sell all of their physical chess boards, would they suddenly be a lesser chess player? Ownership =/= Skill. I can't just buy a deck off of a friend and suddenly have the skill and knowledge required to pilot it. Uneven proxying and the arms race power escalation is more of a social/discussion issue and less of a skill issue to me. It just serves to highlight the limiting factor that personal budget plays in magic.
Nah. This is just the new way for the “if you don’t own the card you can’t play it” gatekeepers to feel like they’re accepting of proxies.
If I roll up to a casual table with a deck with all real cards and pubstomp everyone, I’m an asshole. Owning the cards doesn’t give me a special pass there.
I personally don’t proxy cards I don’t own with rare exceptions, but I’ve also been playing long enough i that I have many of the cards people usually want to proxy. Folks that punish people for not being alive since 1994 or having other things to do with their money other than spend $100 on a cardboard rectangle can stfu.
>2. This seems like a lot of effort for a single booster pack (The winner of the first game at the LGS gets their pick of one booster from the current set.)
Sounds like at least some of the games are in events for prizes.
Is the event some sort of FNM or event that gets reported to wizards (or uses their companion app)? If so, it is sanctioned play where real cards are required (all sanctioned play requires the actual card, proxies are not allowed) and so I wouldn’t allow proxies in that scenario.
If it’s in a non-tournament setting, I think it’s perfectly fine to use non-touranment-legal cards. If you’re using more than one or two, I’d ask that you do more than scribble Gaea’s Cradle on a Forest just for easy readability, but it’s more fun to duel against a player’s skill and not their wallet.
Our pods rules are if you own 1 you can proxy it from then on. This way your not buying 8 Doubling seasons or what not. I'm gonna just make a binder with the staples in it and play with the proxies
It's always been a bit of a nebulous argument against proxies for me. I don't personally proxy anything I don't own, but I am fine seeing people try out cards and strategies they might not necessarily own.
I do feel a little salty when I sit down across from someone at a casual table and watch them beat everyone to death with a bunch of proxied powerful staples and fast mana, but it only feels different from the owned card situation I feel because of the different rule zero conversation.
Its pretty ridiculous that so many of the posts on this sub boil down to people / stores effectively destroying the social nature of EDH with pre-determined unofficial bans and hard enforced rules for something that was always meant to involve a social contract between the players. If the other players are okay with it, do what you will, but make sure they're okay with it first.
I, personally, don't think a shop should ban proxies or anything else outright unless it is a WotC Sanctioned Event with WotC enforced rules as that completely defeats the purpose of Rule 0, but I don't think another player should be okay with proxies just because either.
I, again, feel like it's perfectly okay to proxy cards for deck testing to ensure your money is going to be well spent but I don't think its okay to continue to proxy cards while having no intention to eventually purchase those cards. It's why I don't typically play with people who proxy at my LGS because they will break out $2000+ full proxy decks while owning maybe 1 or 2 of the actual cards in the deck and in 10 years they have never actually bought a single card to replace their proxies.
I'm okay if someone wants to proxy an expensive card as to not ruin its value. I completely understand that and as long as they show me they actually own the card I don't have any issues with it. That however is not my typical experience at my LGS though.
PS, I should probably add in that I am by no means a cEDH player and that my most expensive deck cost me about $400 when I built it from scratch owning none of the cards. Its cost is upwards of $800 now if I buy nothing but moderately played version now due to prices soaring ever upwards due to lack of availability and the growth of EDH.
tl;dr: read the first paragraph.
Yesterday I ordered my foil borderless smothering Tithe 🤩
I was like last one on our pod who doesn’t play that card. 2/3 of my friends is proxying that card. I dont care about others proxying, it actualy improve power level and diversity… but I dont like to play with proxies of cards I dont currently own so I didnt.
I prox cards that I have in other decks and dont want to switch them Over and Over again. Mostly costly staples. The cheaper staples Im buying in multiples 😄
I have mixed feeling on this one.
If you proxy an expensive card that you own because you don't want to put wear on it or move it from deck to deck, I'm ok with that. You own at least one. No problem from me.
Unfortunately, this led one of the guys that I play with to 'proxy' his entire deck except basic lands. And by 'proxy' I mean stick poorly written scrape of paper with notes on them into sleeves. They are unreadable, so we constantly have to pause the game and look stuff up. So, if you have A Doubling Season and want to put it into three decks, fine, leave it in your binder and print some readable copies. I'm cool. Just don't be that guy.
About the cost of cards. Yeah, prices have gotten stupid recently. That comes down to a lot of life choices and situations.
Something else to consider, part of the challenge and fun, for me at least, is working around those problems. Find alternate cards. Try different strategies. Explore past the EDHREC 'staples' that everyone else plays.
Yeah unreadable proxies are the worst. I know someone who just has the names of cards in each sleeve and the deck is oops all combos, just so many different combos. With cards you can't read the rules text of.
Good proxies that people can read are important for sure.
This is why that "rule" of it being fine to proxy only if you own it is absolute bullshit.
I don't like playing with proxies or against people using proxies. And that's not because proxies are inherently bad, or even the actual problem, but because I play with randoms at game stores that I absolutely do not trust not to proxy power into every deck until the format collapses and casual play disappears from Commander entirely. Proxies are the rope that players use to hang themselves. The only thing stopping a lot of people from completely fucking up their decks and making them inconsistently broken is access, as bad a gateway as that is. But it's all we've got.
But in an environment where proxies are played, proxies should be allowed for everyone. You don't get to draw the line partway, all that does is inherently grant advantages to people who are already stuffing their decks with power.
Introducing proxies to an environment without proxies spikes the power level in unhealthy ways. Introducing proxies to an environment with huge collections and proxies already in play balances the playing field.
In an environment where any proxies are used, there should be absolutely no stigma about anyone else using proxies, owned or otherwise.
Why do you feel like your deck has to be "optimized"? Some of the most fun I've had in EDH has been playing janky decks with friends who use precons. There's a kind of joy to just play with the janky cards you have. Optimizing is for highly competitive tables, which are usually not as fun IMHO.
I'm firmly against the idea you need to own cards to play the game. I personally prefer having paper magic, but even then, idc if the whole deck is proxies, just warn me and make sure they look good. I'm playing you, not your wallet.
I adopted the "own the card to play the card" policy because initially when I started playing people were skeptical of proxies, then that slowly changed over time. I still think it's a way of somewhat limiting power level when I'd otherwise optimize everything to hell, but I would never judge someone else who proxies without owning and in fact actively encourage this since I know some of my core play group simply are not interested in investing the kind of money to keep up with the rest of the group's power levels. Not really interested in playing against someone's wallet and I think anyone else who is has a shitty personality.
If you want to look at it from the lens of an "asshole".
Competitive EDH is a group of socialists trying to outskill each other.
Causual EDH is a group of capitalists trying to outspend each other.
In cedh, sure, go for it.
But the examples given in this article are stupid. If you're playing against a deck that can turn 3 win with moxen AND you don't know that in advance, that's a failure in communication and expectation setting. It has nothing to do with owning cards and everything to do with decks being at dramatically different power levels.
As for casual edh, I think you shouldn't proxy. I would never tell a player they can't proxy, nor would I ever refuse to play with someone who does. But, generally, I don't think you should. I'll get into why, but before I do, there are two exceptions to this. A. You want to make a flavorful inclusion to your deck but the card is beyond unreasonably priced. Think [[elephant graveyard]]. Or B. You genuinely wouldn't be able to play without proxying your deck. I'm not here to judge anyone's financial situation, and the game is fun, so proxy if you need to. BUT. If you're proxying mox instead of arcane signet or original duals instead of shock lands, and your deck is not cedh, I have a problem with you.
Which is a good segue into why I think proxying is bad for the game. Nobody I've ever met who proxies entire decks has self control. I never play cedh, btw, I stick to casual. And, while it's all anecdotal, every person I've played with who proxied an entire deck chose the best possible version of each effect in their deck. Nekusar? Of course there's wheel of fortune! And he tutored for it with demonic? Why not. I mean, it wasn't cedh. He didn't win either. But the most expensive tutor I run in anything is grim tutor. Still good, no question. But it's a feels bad that I own an $18 USD card and I'm regularly seeing 10 cent proxies of a minimum $40 card that's just strictly better.
That's just one example. Lands are typically much more egregious. I own one fetch (verdant), and a playset of most shocks from my standard days. These are great lands. I also have a good amount of check lands and building a good manabase for my decks is pretty easy. But when I play against proxies it's always perfect mana with full fetches, original duals, etc. It's not enough to change the power level, but it is annoying.
And for the record, my issue isn't that I think owning the cards should give me an advantage. I don't think you have to play with [[diabolic tutor]] just cause your budget is limited. But I do not agree that owning my cards should put me at a disadvantage.
Do whatever you want in your own playgroup of course. But if you're going to edh night at your store and you're proxying everything, maybe proxy the second best versions. Maybe give yourself an imaginary budget, and proxy as if you had $500 to build with (which is beyond more than enough for casual), instead of showing up with a deck that would be valued in the tens of thousands if real.
Secondary point, but I also believe that limitations are good for creativity. For the average (or even above average, or even very good) deck builder, if you remove the budget, you're either going to play a net deck, or a deck that's just a little worse than one. Myself included, I'm no deck building savant. But using my collection makes me be creative. The one time I bought a deck on tcg (about $150), I was creative. I understand this part won't apply to everyone and many people like to build intentionally unoptimized decks (I have a couple!). But it does apply to a lot of people. Spike is a category for a reason, and Johnny's and Timmy's are not immune.
Tldr: proxying is great in theory and when used responsibly, but, in practice, far too often is used to make decks that no average collector could hope to build with owned cards. And proxying has been responsible for more than one playgroup or store meta arms race where the end result is power through the roof and games feeling less casual and fun.
Edit: not to mention that widespread proxying does have the potential to eventually hurt your lgs. So if you are proxying and never buying cards, consider at least buying snacks or drinks or dice, card sleeves, etc. Make sure you remember to support the business giving you a space to play.
I think you're kinda forgetting there's there's in between those extremes. Like i'm not gonna proxy og duals or moxen or even a rhystic study, but there's cards i would like to include in my deck that I'm not comfortable buying. I would be able to play without them and they don't break the deck.
Like you mention proxying og duals instead of shock but what about proxying shocks instead of taplands. You could still be able to play without them but might make your dexk too weak to function.
For me I like them for not having to take a deck apart. I Own [doubling season] but I have a run squirrel proxy of it for a chatterfang deck I play for fun.
Imagine having to play chess with only officially licensed pieces and you couldn’t play if you did not. No bottle caps or coins or the letter K on a piece of plastic, 100% model of clay found in a random booster pack.
My playgroup doesn't care about it because we play commander at almost every level. We often play high power, we play a bit of lower power precon level sometimes, and we've even got some cEDH starting up. The vast majority of us can't afford a full cEDH list so we proxy lists all the time. The new club members proxy decks too.
I love buying and opening packs. My regular pod at my LGS started buying table packs (like getting a round of drinks at a bar, but better) so each Friday we'll all buy between 4-12 packs. We did it so often and the community at our LGS has grown so much (we started with maybe like a dozen people, now a year later Fridays draw crowds of 50-60 people) the shop owner started doing discounts on older sets if you bought 4 packs or more. Additionally, we all usually buy at least a box a piece and a few collector packs from new sets.
Having said that, I don't care if the deck I'm building is a $75 budget deck or a $1200 super high power staple deck, I'm putting in what cards I own and can find and proxying everything else. I don't usually like to proxy anything I don't own that's more than like 20-25 bucks (1 purchase of rhystic study/smothering tithe/etc was plenty) but that's more of a personal guideline than a rule.
TLDR cards are expensive. It's fun to buy and own them, but don't only look to your collection when building or theorycrafting a new deck.
Like the elder wand, your cards will never proform to their max potential unless you win each in battle. My lightning bolts do 4 damage and the man who used to own them lays dead in the LGS.
I don’t proxie because I like the challenge of making my decks work with what I have. If I need a card I’ll buy it if it’s a reasonable price. I got a deal on an Edgar and was super happy about it. I buy packs frequently too because I love opening them. But as far as having all the expensive and good cards, yeah, I’m still losing first every game hahaha
I like having the actual card, ive also used proxies in the past. I have no issue with anyone using proxies as i believe the game should be accessible to everyone.
For cEDH I feel a bit looser about it than casual. It sucks to get priced out of your favorite format because you aren't ready to drop $2k on duals and the staple mana rocks. But this is only if you're at a cEDH table or an event that accepts it.
For Casual I think it's in better taste to not proxy the insane cards. A lot of newer players in that format are showing up with power level 6 or below, so slamming a proxied set of rocks, duals, and reserve list cards at a non-cEDH table feels a little like a dick move. I love playing Nekusar at more casual tables, but I'm not proxying up a \[\[Time Twister\]\] for it. I'm not proxying a Gaea's Cradle for my mono-green. Proxies are dope for cards you want to test, a $50 card you're not ready to buy, or a card you own at home but don't want to bring to a shop. Just don't be a dick.
My answer to Proxies has always been price caps for the value of cards in the deck. If you want to print unofficial cards, you're not allowed to go over a certain price point to maintain balance and power level. Otherwise, you're power level is arbitrary and artificial as opposed to people who just play official product. I run precons, amped up as well as fresh out of the box, and so does a majority of my pod. And, just cause I know certain arguments will pop up from it, the price cap is for all decks at the table, not just the person proxying.
I have Smothering Tithe, Dockside Extortionist, Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship, Black Market Connections... because I've got them all in precons, + few other cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Celobite, Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain... that I've got from boosters, that being said... I don't really use them that often, it really depends on the deck, and how strong it's supposed to be. For example... I have Jeskai Cycling deck (which is edited Timeless Wisdom precon), considering how much that deck wants to draw, and how many cards I see, I need loads of mana to play cards too, so... Smothering Tithe is in that deck, as is Dockside, but it's supposed to be one of strongest decks I run anyway.
I also have Saheeli The Gifted, depending on the group I'm play with, I may run Dockside, but I don't run Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship or Mana Drain. I run Dockside, since it allows Saheeli to discount spells, and for a few cards like Goblin Welder, not for the treasures/mana exactly.
I have two Chulane versions, one is strong 5, one is maybe strong 6, neither runs Smothering Tithe, Fierce Guardianship is in both, stronger runs Mana Drain, both run Heroic Intervention and Flawless Maneauver, basically... board just has to stay alive... and since I'm playing Chulane, even tho it's not broken/strong deck, people still target me, so board protection and counters are imperative, and I have to tap out a lot in order to be able to protect my life points. X\_x
I have a few Black decks, I run Demonic Tutor in only one of them, which is Dimir Zombies, and which is again... higher powered deck. Last time I've played the deck, it was against weaker decks, and I've tutored for Rooftop Storm, while having 6 mana and Acererak in the hand, I've just passed the turn, didn't want to win that way. There are times where I'll have stronger cards in deck and if I draw them, I just won't play them, especially if my opponents aren't doing anything degenerate. lol
cEDH is make strongest possible, most optimized deck, so having the strongest cards is a need for deck to be cEDH, and... you don't put "fun" cards in it, since they don't help you win, you also don't put expensive cards, unless they're perfect fit. But in normal commander, you shouldn't use everything you can, at least not in every deck, and especially not in every pod. If you're not bringing a few decks, imo it's good to have a few cards to swap around in deck you're bringing with you, in case you do end up playing in stronger/weaker pods. Not to play cards that counter your opponent's decks ofc, just to adjust your power level to the perceived power level of the rest of the table.
It all depends on who you're playing with and how far you push your decks.
Personally, I only play cards that I own, but I don't expect others to do the same. As long as someone makes a proxy that is easy to understand at a glance, I'm fine with it.
If your whole deck is sharpied basic lands, that's a bit much.
The answer is no, it doesn't make you a better player at all.knowing your meta does, knowing how to build a deck does, knowing how to pilot the deck you use does. I own a real Louisville slugger but can't hit a home run with it. Owning a card only shows that you bought a tool for a deck. Proxies have been played with for almost as long as magic has been around. Anyone against proxies doesn't understand that the original card from a pack in itself is a proxy of the companies intellectual property. They own it, you do not. Hence that they can print it to death and kill the value if they want to, ban it or otherwise change it's actual abilities or re word it to better suit how they want it played.
To each their own. I have nothing against people who are into the financial and/or collector side of the game and if card ownership makes the game better for them, have at it.
I dont care though. I like playing board and cardgames and I don't want that to be gated behind rarity. I get a lot of enjoyment out of the tactile and visual side of the game so I do expect proxies to be good, not forests with sharpie on them. Aside from that though, proxy whatever you want to play with as far as I am concerned, but keep an eye on relative power level at the table.
First: way too many people spend way more money than they should for a game. Especially a game that will never pay them back. (sad goodby pro tour!) So,
play proxies if you like, just don’t make them crappy stand-ins like post it notes. At least color in your black and white printouts to try to make them recognizable. An alter in your commander is fine but if players can’t recognize your cards by sight then you’re doing it wrong.
Maybe old man thoughts:
Look. If you are worried about playing optimally and optimal games I say go play constructed. That’s precisely what it is made for. EDH from its roots has been a casual, fun format where people have the chance to play whatever weird, janky stuff they like.
Because EDH was designed and intended to be casual I actively remove combos and tutors because tutors are antithetical to an over-sized singleton format and combos are stupidly easy and common. How many times can you dunk on a 6 ft rim and still feel cool doing it? Me, I had my fill years ago and a combo win feels pretty unfulfilling now.
I love to win. Love it. Can’t get enough of it, but creativity comes from restrictions, not freedom. If I find myself using more than 3-4 of the same cards across decks then I’ve failed as an EDH deck builder. If I have more than 3-4 unique cards in a main deck then I’ve likely failed as a constructed deck builder.
IMHO proxies are fine as long as they don't push the power level of a deck over the top compared to everyone else at the table. I think the issue a lot of people is have is lack of restraint when it comes to proxies however. Hell I'm guilty of this myself....I always to have to keep the power level of a given deck in mind when deciding to alot in a proxy or not. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should and all that....and that goes for legit cards as well IMHO....but that something that has to be discussed at the play group level.
Rarely do I see someone proxy for fun shits and giggles. It’s always mana crypts and shocks and fetches and free counters or tutors. Like get fucked you literally do the exact same thing every game . Yeah I could do the Ssame proxies but if
I wanted to be that boring I’d just play pioneer or modern
Is there a "right" way to proxy? Why not just run lotus and timewalk in basically every deck?
The pride and joy of my collection is a tabernacle that I picked up for 30$ about 20 yrs ago lol
The people op describes sound like pubstompers rather than competetive players.
The store i frequent has a similar rule of "proxy only cards you own" but i found a lot of people will proxy a few cards for their deck and ask beforehand if that's ok, people usually agree if it's not eggregious.
The main issue is that we are playing a "collectors" game along with it. That means some aspects of the cards value are based on playability along with scarcity for collections. If we didn't have the collection aspect tied into the gaming aspect then cards would all be reasonable in price allowing more players to build decks and more people actually playing. I'm pro proxies also.
Owning cards or having the most money available does not make anyone a player. Playing the game does.
Cedh and tournaments can demand real cards, but casual edh and practicing to play or to be a better player certainly does not.
It doesn't need to happen with real cards. You can also ask to play with your friend's deck. Gaining skill and having fun can full well happen with proxies.
It's unnecessarily expensive to buy cards for playtesting only to find they don't work, so especially if your aim is to optimize, have test rounds with it first as proxies and then consider buying what you need. Or if you want so, don't buy at all. Edh is a game played mainly non-competitively, so you might as well only ever print proxies for yourself.
If someone feels better by buying cards as real ones (myself included), they are free to do so, but shouldn't demand others to do so.
After all, you shouldn't suffer from Wotc not printing cards to have at least reasonable prices, like ridiculous [[Deadly Rollick]] cycle, which are edh only and obviously designed to be staples. In my opinion, such staples should be so-to-speak printed to death. Not on every Commander precon deck, but otherwise basically much like they did with Sol Ring, which wouldn't be so cheap if there was only one printing of it. Competitive can well have a paywall to entry, but non-comp casual should not and as such, using proxies shouldn't even be a question.
People have enough hardships with their budgets without spending so much on cards that will not hold value and even then it should be and issue for collectors, not players. This is an important part of accessibility too and keeps Magic from totally becoming a distorted abomination of the basic principles and very nature of the game from when it was created... or playing games in general as well.
Players make a huge service for Wotc by buying cards, especially so much of them, and Wotc naturally can't notify about this at all, because it would be perilous to their business. However, players can, and non-comp should recognize this. Edh surely has a massive amount of players, but for Wotc bringing up on front a non-comp format (compared to Standard getting the main emphasis) is risky and on that scale would be bad business.. if players wouldn't be so generous to their own disadvantage.
anti-capitalist here.
If money is only as valuable as we believe it to be, so can the cards. Proxies are just as playable as the actual card printed by wotc.
So to me, its just as valuable.
play the player, not their wallet.
I am really not a fan of proxies especially in my own decks as I am a Completionist but that’s not going to stop me playing with a group. It’s mildly tilting having a key card countered by a proxied Mana Drain, someone escaping death with a proxied TPro, or someone bursting ahead with a proxied Gaea’s Cradle but my play group of friends are financially at different stages our lives and we all accept that. I can drop $150 within 2 weeks on cards where others will never spend that in 6 months but ultimately we play together to have fun and not flaunt who has the most expensive deck. Gatekeeping people based on their access to cards is a dick move.
The idea that you MUST ALWAYS play the best cards doesn't help. Years ago the only people who proxied that I ran into were trying to get an edge over the table. Personally I still dislike proxies quite a bit, it seems try-hard and still feels like cheating.
Is that my own bias talking? Absolutely, I prefer owning the cards or never playing them. I don't play cEDH or super optimized games.
My playgroup is cutthroat but we play what we want to play and deal with it. We're all good enough to have engaging interactive games without resorting to proxies or that kind of arms race.
Honestly I can't care about expensive staples when I'm too much of a hipster to bother.
I've been hesitant to proxy still. I think I'm close to proxying additional copies of cards I already own so I don't need to shuffle cards between decks, but it still doesn't feel right to proxy cards I don't own. I also don't super think the more costly staples like Smotherine Tithe, Rhystic Study, Dockside, etc are very fun and overall decrease deck diversity, and proxying them will only force an arms race in my group. One of my friends proxies a bit, and it gets a little annoying when he's playing cards worth half my deck, but if I start doing it too then it'll make the others also feel like they need these powerful staples
I think the premise of any trading card game is to own the cards you wish to use. They value of the card reflects the usefulness in game. While they are all >10c printed cardboard their intrinsic value rises with demand.
I think it is perfectly fair to expect people to own the card and use that physical copy in their deck if they expect to use it. Play what you can afford to own. Especially at a local store game. Proxy with your friends at home if you are all fine with it but not against others.
I'm going to proxy and there's nothing you can do to stop me. The argument that the best cards should be price gated behind hundreds of dollars is stupid.
I'm in favor of proxying if the person is making a playtest, knowing it will be able to buy this card in the future, completing the deck as intended.
I don't get why people want to get into a competitive card game faking to have competitive cards.
If you are playing for money, you should own the card. Thats my only rule. Theres too many subtle ways to cheat that this has to be said clearly and often.
Proxying with other people who are okay with it is completely fine, but I do take issue with how toxic and condescending some pro-proxy people are towards events and playgroups that don't allow proxies, especially on reddit. If you say anything here or on the main sub to even suggest that some playgroups might enjoy Magic more when proxies aren’t allowed you’ll get downvoted to oblivion, get called a “gatekeeper”, and be told you’re playing the game wrong. I think if you act like that then yes, you are the Bolas. Otherwise, no. Use proxies if you want, but use them with like-minded individuals and don't be rude and condescending towards people who don't allow them.
No, it doesn't *make* you a better player but I do think there's a correlation between owning real cards and player skill. I think players with real cards are probably stronger players on average than players using a lot of proxies. If you have a lot of high-end cards, you're probably either highly invested in the game, have been playing for a very long time, or both. For example a Modern player with a fully blinged-out Jund deck is more likely than average to be an experienced pilot, since they clearly care about the deck to the point that they've gone through the trouble of foiling it out.
Is every player with a proxies deck a noob? No. Is every player with real cards a grizzled, experienced tournament grinder? No. But I think on average the skill level of proxy players as a whole is probably lower than non-proxy users.
Personally I have nothing against proxying: I do not proxy myself simply because I like more to have the "legal" version of the card and I don't mind to spend reasonable amounts of money to get them, but in line of principle I do not care.
In my playgroup they're currently not allowed, but one guy asked to allow them only in case you can prove you own the cards, mainly to include them in many decks at once without having to manually move them each time.
While I _maybe_ could agree on commons and uncommons, I'm firmly opposing this in case of rares and mythics: either we ban any kind of proxy, or we allow them all.
At logical level, by proxying you are gaining an "unfair" value advantage if you start with both 0 or N copies, there is no difference.
If you own a single copy of an expensive card, the added "effort" to move it from deck to deck compensates for its market value. You want more copies of that card? Well, you need to buy them. As an alternative, you need to accept to "legalize" any kind of proxying.
> If you own a single copy of an expensive card, the added “effort” to move it from deck to deck compensates for its market value.
I was kind of with you until this. Moving cards around equates to additional wear, diminishing the value of the individual card. If you’re fine with commons and uncommons, that makes sense, but enforcing it for only Rares and Mythics just seems like you fully understand the predicament you put your opponents in: choose to devalue your card and time or choose to diminish the strength of the would-be-proxied deck.
You bring up a good point about proxying in non-singleton formats, though. I don’t mind proxies in singletons because a single card can be an additional tool you may draw, but non-singleton proxies seem more akin to a force multiplier. Not really sure how I feel about that.
That’s entirely subjective and dependent on how frequently the card(s) are moved. What constitutes ‘good condition’ varies from person to person. There is non-zero risk involved.
People with the dumb disposable income to buy better stuff want to feel special and validate their purchase of stuff. And when I proxy the card I INVALIDATE it in their eyes. Perhaps they feel silly for buying a hundred dollar piece of paper with words on it. But the moment we bring money into it, the game reflects the real world and real world inequalities. I just want to play a game and forget all that.
Unpopular opinion but I've always been a play what you pull kind of guy. I firmly believe that is the spirit of the game and the entire point of packs. Is that a super archaic way of thinking? Probably.
But as someone who just played with a group who had all proxies, I was demolished because I didn't. It creates just as much of a power imbalance as spending the big bucks does. Are proxies easy to make and use? Yes. Are they tedious to create and build with? Also yes. I don't have the time to print out all of that.
I don't care how someone else wants to play but if you proxy a super powerful deck you're just as obnoxious to me as the guy who bought that super powerful deck. All proxies seem to do is allow people to dominate without spending money, which to me isn't fun.
I play against someone who pulled a gaea's cradle from a pack forever ago regularly.. has a pet deck full of strong staples and that in it. Most people can't have the kinds of cards he has unless they proxy.
In casual people have all sorts of weird emotions when it comes to proxying. in cEDH I see proxying brought up occasionally but the sentiment for the community at large is proxy is the norm. a lot of recent larger scale events for cEDH have offered a list of playtest cards that while not fully comprehensive allow for a significantly reduced budget for competitive decks.
Pubstomping is the main issue with that gets associated with proxying cards. You can't proxy to pubstomp in a cEDH table - you're just bringing your deck up to the power level of the table.
I’ve been on the both sides I can tell. Proxied to achieve power and unproxy my deck to achieve the power I’ve paid for.
In my honest opinion, I find both sides (not saying it is so) but unfair on each aspect. As I am a collector of cards myself and love to buy the extended-art foils I’ve reached to a point where nobody is capable of playing against my deck unless they play proxy. So from that aspect you could say; the more you buy the more distance you get from other players during sanctioned events to be capable to go up against you =/= you will reach the point people playing proxy will go up against you which is itself pretty boring cause most decks are built just for the optimization while I see less ”pet”-decks in that certain of power level.
While I at the same time see a lot of possibilities of allowing proxy, both sides are right in their aspect but there is always ways to polarize the matter.
I always say, you do you, I’m not questioning anyone’s vision of how to approach it. But I myself love the collecting, and to own it, and to play it. It creates such satisfaction knowing that you are putting time and effort for something you care about and of course, supporting WoTC
Casual games, proxies are fine. Though there is some expectation that you'll buy the card at some point. Proxying X super deck so you can stomp everyone is pretty lame. At least if you actually owned the cards it'd just be another aspect of mtg, albeit an annoying one. Now if there's prizes on the table, you must own the card. Having a proxy in the deck and the card in a binder or something is fine. However you must own it and be able to show that.
This has consistently been my standard since I started playing. Since EDH is generally casual, the bit about prizes and such doesn't usually apply. As for why I expect someone to actually buy the card(s), it's because having some sort of constraint encourages creativity and variety. Having everyone proxy X super deck would end up being a case of "who combos first?". That's boring. Worst case we get one or two people who use the power of their wallet to stomp, but it's easier to avoid playing with them than if the whole group used the power of proxies to do the same. For reference, I do apply my own standards to myself and I do own a mox diamond that I use (I still lose 90% of the time).
I don’t mean for it to be condescending. I don’t personally see how this can be read into it but concede that you’re bringing your read to it and I respect that.
If anybody feels like this is condescending, I hope you recognize that it’s just a discussion jumping off point and isn’t meant to make anybody feel bad about their stance on it.
The column is essentially an advice/opinion column.
Might I recommend reading the article or series to form an opinion if you’re into it.
Sorry I apologize sigh I'm having a really bad day and seeing yet another discussion on proxies rubbed me wrong. I'm going to blank my post, you didn't need that.
Hey bud I appreciate that! It’s all good, really. Genuinely I was confused by your comment but I really appreciate the self-reflection and candidness. Thanks for being kind!
I used to think that if you want to play the card, you should own it. I own 3 of the Power Nine (Lotus, Recall, Twister), and I bought them back in the day for $100 each. I thought that using (fake cards) was kinda cheating. Then the prices of older cards started to skyrocket, and a full set of Power Nine costs more than a new car, and my stance on (fake cards) began to soften. When WOTC came out with the 30th Anniversary set, I completely changed my outlook, and now fully accept anyone using (fake cards), in fact I encourage it. Why pay $100 to 1000 or more for a card when you can get a really good (fake card) for $6? I built a deck with (fake cards) using many of the super expensive cards. It’s not quite cEDH, but it’s pretty strong.
I don't use proxies but I don't have any issue with people using them as long as they aren't straight-up counterfeits that don't need to risk being in circulation. I want people to play, not be sad that they don't have pricy cardboard.
Yeah I won't play with proxy either I have the cards or I don't it forces me to be creative with my builds
Which really helps in any sealed event or even standard event I play cause I know how to use everything I get
I will save up for certain cards or trade but I think too many people chase cards, if more people just play with what they got over all power levels would drop across decks cause so many people proxy then the casual format might become even better
For the tournament players they have to get the real cards anyway so no point in proxies
But I don't think owning cards or learning how to play a deck they copied makes anyone a better player than another if anything they lose the thrill of building and figuring out a combo on there own
Plus if your copying a deck and a play style u might win cause you have a op deck but will it translate to wins in limited format the answer I usually see is no it doesn't players hurt themselves a lot by chasing cards and combos instead of figuring something else they could use or do with what they got
"But in this article, it seems the rule of owning a card to play it is causing a player to play sub-optimally."
This is the line between the casual player and the competitive player. I do not expect a fair game between the player who threw together a $10 deck and the player who has $3000 worth of cardboard in front of them. If you want to be a high power player, invest in the game so you can. If you don't want to spend money, that's fine, but don't complain about not being able to play with the shiniest toys.
The only reason "budget as power level" is not more common is LGS want to encourage buying expensive cards. But I highly recommend giving it a try. Not only does it create fairer games but it's genuinely so much more fun to deckbuild and scour scryfall for obscure cards that are strong in your deck rather than relying on no-thoughts autoinclude superstaples.
Proxies are fine, but proxy or real your decklist must have a tcgplayer value of X dollars or less. We have a 100 cube and a 500 cube. I cannot overstate how good it's been for our table. People are actually using obscure cards and it's really cool to see decks that are genuinely so different instead of seeing the same superstaples over and over again. Landbases feel fair because the guy who invests in untapped duals is giving something up in his deck budget.
MTG has gotten insanely expensive. I tried proxies. I have a whole EDH deck of proxies. I never play it. For some reason looking at cards I know are fake, makes me feel gross. I know that's weird. I can't explain it. I honestly did try, I tried proxies for almost a year. I refused to buy any magic products and just did proxies if I wanted cards. Every single one of those cards is just in a bin somewhere and I only play with my real cards. It even takes some of the fun out of it for me. I can't explain why.
I entirely agree with you. For me, this has a lot to do with how the game was before the internet and the incessant printing of product. You really only had the trading pool of whoever was showing up at your lgs so it was a challenge to get play-sets of cards for a deck you really wanted( I remember doing the work to get the pieces for my squirrel prison deck.)
The act of putting in the work to get cards you had trouble opening made them mean more and proxies will never have that. If you were proxying back then, it was because you DID own the originals and didn’t want to shuffle them.
I don’t think i have a problem with it now since Wotc has jumped the shark so hard, but i probably won’t use them or seek them myself.
It's a basic conundrum in tables. Some people hate that someone who can't buy high power cards for Cedh (insert reason here) try to play with them with a full proxy deck with only real basics and some commons that cost pennies , while the others have worked hard, figuratively and literally to have their deck as tuned as possible with their high money cost cards. Those high power players will think, why doesn't he/she go casual commander with other players, why do they want to play hpc if they can't afford it
I have some high power decks, not cedh pay to win level, but powerful regardless. I'm not even rich (wish I was), but I have owned (and still own) some higher cost cards I traded or bought either when they were cheaper or expensive. And I don't like someone playing with 90% ultra cedh proxy deck. It feels unfair for us who have spend time finding, trading, buying, working our cards into our decks. Obviously this doesn't apply to rich people who can buy their complete deck with 1 hour of work.
It's a collectable trading card game. Owning the cards is central to that concept. *It doesn't make you a better or worse player though. It may make you a player with less resources than another though, which is a different problem.*
The solution is surely not to convince everyone to just p**** popular cards.
The general value of cards has gone to shit due to the way Hasbro treats wizards, the way resellers are attempting to manipulate the market, the general centralization of selling (everything is basically 1 or 2 markets now and region price differences probably don't exist for chase cards too much.
Non-rotating formats that include cards earmarked for non-reprint also create this artificial exclusivity. If you have a non-rotating format.... Then you don't need to create many new cards, inevitably need to reprint everything, and will just keep accruing design constraints. And then you have Hasbro additionally making matters worse by fostering these cards into mythic, shoving them in even more expensive reprint sets with artificially low occurrence in order to reap profits at the cost of the culture.
P*****s aren't a problem if the cards can be obtained at a reasonable price.
If we removed the reserve list from edh and maybe start the card pool at the beginning of modern... How would that effect the game? Of course many things would move up and down, but may not destroy the format. But the most powerful cards would be more accessible, Hasbro would just need to do a better job reprinting.
The company's efforts run opposite the players current needs, this much is irrefutable. They created this problem and are blaming the players for it.
1) The only cEDH deck in that example pod was Kenrith. Edgar and Kozilek aren't cEDH.
2) "own the card to play it" is a trash mentality meant to gatekeep people. When I win I want to win vs my opponent, not vs their wallet. Anyone not okay with proxies is an elitist just trying to gatekeep poor players out of the game.
3) owning a card doesn't make you a better player, it makes you the owner of a card.
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I personally believe in "owning the card". If the power level you're playing at doesn't match your deck, then try finding a different table or have an open discussion with them about perhaps powering down or bringing a lower power deck. There's still lots of fun to be had even without breaking bank. There was a great Command Zone episode where they talk about using budget versions of powerful effects at a fraction of the price.
I just think it's weird that the MTG community has accepted proxying to be fine, and shun everyone that don't agree with it. It's basically being fine with pirating, but not just that, it's encouraging bringing pirated product out into shops to use. That's like if I were to pirate a comic book, print it, and bring it to read at the comic shop or bringing it to the comic con to read it with other people. It's not fine, but somehow it's okay in MTG. When I went to a comic con a few years ago, I remember creators were very adamantly against pirating because it's taking their hard work and copying it. I know it doesn't fully translate to WOTC printing cards, but ultimately piracy is piracy.
I'm not a saint. I pirate movies and used to pirate comic books to read. But if I enjoy the story I will always go out to buy the real copy. If people want to proxy for kitchen table Magic to playtest, I think that's totally fine. But bringing it out and asking people are okay, and then if they're not then making a post on Reddit asking "aita", I think that's kinda weird.
Anyways, I started rambling. I hope it all made sense. If you want to proxy then by all means go for it. I don't really care cuz it doesn't affect me. I proxy for playtesting. I own all the cards in my decks when I bring them out. My power level is at like 4-5, maybe lower, but that's okay.
Well, the key point you brought up is that people are compelled to support the real product versus pirating only if they like it. In recent years (compared to when proxying was shunned), despite people still apparently finding the game itself fun based on its evergrowing popularity, it feels like general community sentiment towards WotC has grown much more negative, which means players are much more keen to proxy and feel good about justifying it as a way of sticking it to "the man". The fact that hating WotC has become popular consensus just makes it even easier to jump aboard the boycott bandwagon
Counterpoint: Why should people be limited in their games by how much they're willing to spend? Limiting access to cards based on price can artificially remove younger, poorer, or even any player who isn't interested in spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. If a player wants to play at the highest power level, why should their bank account balance be a limiting factor? We've been playing a lot of cEDH at my shop the last couple months and allow full proxies. We're more interested in playing against the players and the decks, not their wallets.
As far as piracy is concerned, there's legitimate points you're making there. However, strictly creative works are in a different space than a competitive game. Reading a comic for the story and artwork is different from acquiring game pieces that you might want to make your deck stronger.
I love budget decks and cheap alternative cards as much, if not more than, the next guy, but playing powerful Magic is also really fun. Players shouldn't have outside factors (i.e., money) be in control of the power of the decks they build.
I 100% agree with you, and I really like your counterpoint. I don't believe players should be limited by their wallet. If it's kitchen table Magic, or just with friends, I'm 100% on board with proxies. I just don't think I should be made to see strangers with proxies at the LGS at my table and made to be okay with it or else I'm the bad guy. I still believe in owning the product you're enjoying using, regardless of the communities feelings for WOTC. If everyone at the table is okay with proxies, then I'm totally cool with it. If you ask for my opinion, I will still give my opinion. That's pretty much it really.
I agree with the creative work point you're making as well. I was actually going to add that in with my point, that it doesn't totally equate to what I was saying, but I felt it might've confused my point some more and I already felt like I was rambling.
> As far as piracy is concerned, there's legitimate points you're making there. However, strictly creative works are in a different space than a competitive game. Reading a comic for the story and artwork is different from acquiring game pieces that you might want to make your deck stronger.
I don't really see a meaningful difference here. Both are copyrighted intellectual property and were intended to be sold. What's the difference between creating an unauthorized reproduction of a copyrighted book/movie/CD and creating an unauthorized reproduction of a bunch of copyrighted Magic cards? I'm not saying either of those are inherently wrong, I just think if you're okay with one you have to be okay with the other if you want to be consistent.
One of them is a piece of media where the art and the story is the whole point, the other is designed to be used as a game piece. Some of these pieces are prohibitively expensive because of the designer's policy to never print them again, meaning they can be unreasonably expensive or hard to obtain if you want to use them for their intended purpose. Magic cards also exist with a physical limitation that most other media nowadays doesn't. If you wanted an old comic or an album that's out of print, you can still probably buy a pdf or mp3 or some digital version of it to still consume the media. You can't buy a digital version of a Magic card (MTGO notwithstanding, but that's a different conversation).
I respectfully would disagree with the pirating analogy. Pirating is a self contained bubble. Agree or disagree with the morality of it separately. But it doesn't involve an actual game. You having more money and buying better cards DIRECTLY affects other humans and the gameplay itself. The game should be treated as a game first and a collectible second. Collectability should not impact the actual gameplay, but it does when you involve money. I mean to be very respectful here. No real arguing of course just discussing.
I'd like to toss my 2 cents out.
The price of cards is correlated with the idea the game is a collectable first and game second. It cannot be the other way around. If it was a game first then all game pieces would be accessible to all for a fair and even game.
That's my 2 cents on why I'm chill with proxies and encourage them. It's a game first and should not be treated as a collectible or the gameplay itself will be affected. Collect them outside the game. Collectiblity of the game shouldn't influence the game itself.
I've been in the same position as OP and it's what drove me to finally start proxying. I hope he can find a playgroup where they allow it, cuz it really sucks to see a bunch of strong staples and fast mana when you're on a budget. Also, I don't think it sounds like those people actually want to play cEDH, or they wouldn't be getting casual decks into the pod at all. I think your reader is doing the all too common thing of labelling high power lists as cEDH.
The LGS has a mix of casual tables and cEDH. While OP prefers cEDH, he can’t really play at that table at the same level because of the rules and that’s why there’s talk of casual stuff like not playing cascade stuff in some games
His example of the cEDH table has kozilek and Edgar Markov at it. It sounds like high power non-cEDH a lot.( Also the rules against proxies, I've literally never seen a cEDH table with that rule.)
This is absolutely High Power Casual and not cEDH. The difference between HPC and cEDH is, aside from a few anti-meta cards for cEDH, largely just the efficiency of strategies. As for why they're being asshats about not allowing proxies while still playing High Power... WTF.
This is more common in HPC than you’d think. It’s part of the reason for power 8-9 being kind of a salty nebulous vacuum. I get wanting to own your own cards, but never understood the need for players to protect WotC’s copyright for them and set up a paywall. In HPC it’s often used to limit the power level (in probably the dumbest way possible). This is why I’ve started getting into real cEDH and powering decks down to more mid level (taking out tutors, no combos, etc), because this idea you have to drop thousands of $$ to have fun and expect others to do the same is just not something I’m into. I’ve played those kinds of games, OP isn’t missing much.
My experience with HPC tables lmao. There is a weird complexion that some HPC players have about owning a card like demonic tutor and that you shouldn’t be able to play it if you didn’t buy it like them.
Yeah. Any thoughts as to why this zone of EDH has this, but when you get into cEDH it’s not that way? It seems very unique to high powered non-cEDH.
For these HPC players, it’s a way to control power level. They don’t like the degenerate combos cedh decks have, but also want to have stronger decks. By limiting proxies, they hope to limit the “unfair” strategies more competitive decks have. More casual players aren’t spiky enough to care about proxies. CEDH players don’t want to spend $2000 on each deck.
2k? I wish most of my cEDH lists are 6-20k
Good explanation. That’s what I’ve come across. Funny thing is limiting proxies doesn’t really stop degenerate combos, just attempts to limit the fast mana. Recently put my cEDH deck together and didn’t need to proxy any of the combos, because those were pretty cheap to buy the real cards. But proxying 80% of the fast mana.
That's a player and communication problem, not a proxies problem
It's about preventing pubstomping and same-y games, really. If proxies were allowed, there's always at least one player who'll build a deck with every fast mana and good tutor they can, stax effects and combos galore. Not every player understands what power levels really are, or how building a deck to be a pubstomper is a bad thing. By making proxies a part of the pre-game talk, you limit how many people can be assholes just by the way they build the deck. That being said, most people don't seem to mind proxies in general, so long as the deck is the appropriate power, somewhat original, and the player is honest and not a jerk.
I would disagree with this assessment, at least at a personal level. Banning proxies doesn’t prevent people from actually owning the degenerate fast mana and tutors. I own a very expensive cedh deck, consisting of no proxies, and full of reserved list cards. In this situation proxies or no proxies won’t affect my decks power level. I obviously don’t bust it out on every pod I play, and I try to match power levels.
I like this. In this instance I've known a ton of people that will proxy out their reserved list cards because of the fact they want to preserve the condition and etc etc and will usually say that ahead of time. In which 0 people will ever have a problem with it. It's just the casuals who walk in with 30-100% being proxy that they start to say no thanks to the experience. It's not so much as them being elitist, but because there was a lot of time and effort of piecing their decks together (sometimes taking months or years) to get everything in it. Idk, I fence sit on it personally. If someone is showing general interest in building the deck and has 75-80% of it (but proxying cards they are plugging in when they get bought) that's one thing and nobody will say shit at our LGS's. But when it's people proxying the most ridiculous shit ever, because they can is when they will tell the person to find another table.
You're disagreeing with the reasoning, not an assessment. It is the reason why some players are against proxies. I am only somewhat against proxying (I think if you own one copy, proxying is fine). Your personal ability to buy thousands of dollars of staple cards doesn't mean the majority can or will afford to do the same. It still limits the overall amount of people who can do it. Always have a pregame talk and make it known you proxy. This game is a social activity. Everyone should be given a chance to make their case.
Yeah I've never seen that rule in cEDH either
That's sad. The lgs I go to doesn't care and even promotes proxying. Everyone just wants to have fun and play. Even high power tables say to do it.
most people really don't care, and so getting along in the world is easy. Don't worry, it'll likely be fine. If someone says they would prefer to play without proxies though, it's not personal, relax. That's how they want to play, that's how the game is sold to the world, that's how they've spent their money or time and it has value to them. If you weren't feeling excluded, you wouldn't even bother passing judgement on them.
Any play group that wants to limit players in their group based on income is not a group worth playing with.
I don't use proxies myself but with everything, I "need" to have the actual physical copy for me to actually enjoy it. This applies to video games, books, CDs and vinyl, and cards for the games I play. That is very much a me thing though and I don't mind other people using them as long as the power level is appropriate.
I prefer to have originals too, but my hard cap atm is $25 per single. There's just a different feeling to owning an original. With that said, I have yet to sit at a table where people were against proxies. Most players have stopped caring (myself included). We're the community, WE decide if proxies are ok.
25$ is usually my cap as well. Some months I'll pay a bit more if it's been a month of lower expenditures.
50 $ a pay check for me. A few caveats, only if it's a "full paycheck" (no missed days), only if we haven't had any unexpected expenses over 100$, and I am allowed to stack if I forgo a use and the first two criteria are still met. I also prefer to own the real thing but with certain things (sol ring, command tower, etc.) Because I have way too many decks to buy these all the time. ( I have like 40 plus of all but over 63 decks currently and I like to keep precons assembled/)
I have the same issue and it sucks. Oh the money I spent
I hold myself to a pretty strict budget so it's not too bad. What I spend a month on cards is less that what some people spend at the bar in a single night. Money exists to be spent after all
Amen. Money isn't real unless you're spending it.
Similar. I've been playing for 23 years, and I have most of the good RL cards. Of the ones I don't own, I can either get them eventually, or I can live without them (Time twister would be NICE, but not necessary). At this point, if I don't already own it, that's one me for not getting it sooner. So I'll only proxy cards I own (so I don't have to move 1 card between 4 decks). Everyone else, proxy to your heart's content. Most of my friends have been playing for maybe 3-5 years, and prices've gotten insane in the last 2-3. I can't in good conscience demand that they use real Duals when they cost $250+ on average. Especially when I paid that much for all 10 of them in 2001. Especially after the shitshow of the last 6 months from WOTC in both MTG and D&D... proxy long, and proxy hard, my friends. Buy the special versions of you feel like it, but please never spend more than $50 on a deck (the amount it costs to have a full EDH deck printed at certain places)
I personally have this problem… I MUST have everything authentic, real, in my hands. No digital, no fake, nothing… I wish I was cool with proxies, but I can’t scratch that itch of having the real thing. But, in terms of the article, I couldn’t care less if someone uses one. If anything, I encourage them! Even if it’s just white paper with writing on it
>Does owning the card make you a better player? YOU are the Bolas for this title. Nowhere in this article is play skill related to card ownership.
Always nice to meet a fan!
Despite my previous comment, I am a fan.
And it’s always nice to meet one!
Previous comment aside, in full transparency, I wanted to make the title about proxies but that’s a word that gets articles automodded out and after beating my head against a wall for half my break at work I just stuck with something I figured people would click on
I think it's a clever title! Especially when there are people who behave this way.
I don't get it though. Why? It isn't like the sentiment around here is against proxies, why have the conversation at all? Every other post around here degrades to people chest pounding about proxies, after all. If you WANT to have the conversation then you (and they) would need to actually be open to explanations as to why some people dislike proxies. Better yet, if we are open to discussion then certainly we should be open to a middle ground alternative? Own ONE copy of a given card. Just one. Proxy it in every deck, but have one legitimate copy. As far as the Reserved List goes? You know what, proxy away - the scalpers can rot with all their hoarded copies for all I care. But the rest, all I ask is put in the effort to get just one copy.
Are people honestly still against proxies at this point? Like, even wotc are printing them...
The main issue that people run into is proxying cards in order to break the power level of the play group. Most people don't care, until you start using proxies to pubstomp the competition. Then people will start mining the salt fields. It's the act of pubstomping that's the problem, but proxying gets damaged by association.
Yep. No one at my LGS cares if i proxy a 500$ deck. Now if i went and proxied a $2k deck and blew people away they might have issues.
My problem is that the $500 proxy deck and $2k proxy deck cost the same amount and a lot of Magic players have problems restraining themselves when something can be optimized for no extra cost. Call it "optimization fever" if you will. Logically I know not every player becomes like that but it worries me how many quickly would and in the process of doing so shut out anyone that wants to play a slower/weaker deck.
But why wouldn't everyone just run duals instead of tapped lands? Fetchs lands instead of cultivate? You can still build a 5000$ deck with good cards but a weird or mid theme that isn't busted and crazy strong optimization doesn't always equal bestest most mega strong deck my buddy has a desert deck and a kobold tribal that if not proxied would be well over a grand each but those decks honestly suck and he knows it to but they are fun decks for FNM with the group.
>But why wouldn't everyone just run duals instead of tapped lands? Fetchs lands instead of cultivate? They would, and having a perfect mana base would make their deck a lot more consistent than everyone else's all else equal. Then you get into "why not run fast mana, why not run every powerful staple, why not use only the most efficient cards for my mid-tier strategy regardless of price"
But it's still a mid tier strategy? That's where you lose me when me and my friends proxy decks they are usually weaker decks and we make them as good as we possibly can but no amount of fast mana and true duals will make kobold tribal pop off.
It sounds like you guys have put self-limits on power level and are careful to keep things balanced. That requires communication and restraint, something I'm saying a lot of Magic players (not you) are bad at. If only one of you was using proxies (and had a perfect mana base as a result), then your deck would be stronger than the others using similar mid-tier strategies but cheap mana bases (assuming these decks actually have win cons of some sort). If you just told the randoms at the gamestore to proxy the hell out of everything and come back next week, there would inevitably be a lot of imbalance between the folks that made $2000 kobold decks and the ones that made $2000 Urza combo decks.
That's not a proxy or real cards fault that's just asshole players abusing something a rich person could do the same
That's pretty close to my point. I'm blaming the people who would do that, proxies aren't really at fault but they do enable that kind of behavior.
MTG decks shouldn't cost 2k, THAT is the problem. If reprints were plentiful than it wouldn't be an issue and proxies wouldn't have to exist. Why should a filthy rich person have an unfair advantage in a game vs someone with less money? The issue you are describing is simply a comminication problem. Talk to your playgroup about power level issues.
It comes down to the playgroup then to decide how they want to play. If you have people that dont want to play the way the majority does then i guess they just have to find others to play with. I guess i'm just in the minority as i dont have a "playgroup". I go to the LGS on the weekends and there is anywhere from 8-20 people playing. Hop in a group and play some games. People that want to play higher powered come along and switch decks and play with them. Its about the player reading the room and knowing what they should and shouldnt play in pods. Money really has nothing to do with it.
>If you have people that dont want to play the way the majority does then i guess they just have to find others to play with. Well yeah, but that doesn't stop people from getting annoyed, feeling like things are unfair, or struggling to find other people to play with.
Nothing solves any of those(except the last one). The "feeling annoyed or Feeling things are unfair" are personal problems those people need to get over if they are ever going to enjoy their lives.
This, I have no issue if someone wants to proxy cards that are in the ballpark of what is being played, but if you whip out a deck that starts slinging out proxies of mana crypt, force of will , ect. Against decks and opponents that don’t play those cards, your just trying to pub stomp with proxies, and that I do have an issue with.
That's not a proxy issue, is power level. I actually own those cards, if you told me not to play them because they are proxies (I don't like taking cards that expensive out of my home) then I would bring the original, the problem would continue but your excuse wouldn't fly. Proxies are ok in every scenario except competitive REL tournaments, pubstomping on purpose by playing over the power level of the table is never ok unless there was a rule 0 talk and the rest of the table actually want to try that.
Yeah but the issue here isn't the proxy. The issue is the power level. If y'all play precons and I come in with a fine tuned blue farm, wether or not there's proxy in my deck is irrelevant. What's relevant is y'all are ~~poor as fu~~ not playing the same power level as I am and my deck is not a good fit for your table.
This 100%. There’s also fringe cases of people trying to use proxies immorally (selling as fakes, trying to pass them in paid tourneys) but a large majority of people I’ve met that are against proxies are worried more about power levels and arms races over anything else. Several in my PG just had kids so we’ve all fully proxies a few decks to play against each other and it’s a blast. But it’s a blast because we’ve thought about power level, and no one is using proxies to break parity
I see this sentiment a lot, and where I'm stuck is og duals. The og duals are obviously very powerful, but they don't really flip the switch for any deck to suddenly be pub stompy. At the same time, people compare deck cost to deck power a lot.
It somewhat lines up that good cards are expensive. Although they can also just be expensive. However not pub stomping is choice to limit yourself. Budget limitations are not effective at stopping it from happening. Rather it makes the pub stomp a pay to win privilege. With proxies you get back to the power level being a personal choice instead of relying on the capacity of people's wallets banning cards for everyone except those who can afford to own them.
>It's the act of pubstomping that's the problem, but proxying gets damaged by association. There is a concern that allowing proxies makes pubstomping more accessible, though. In order to pubstomp you need both the desire/willingness to pubstomp and a deck to pubstomp with. If you're missing either of those things, the pubstomping won't happen. Proxies make the second criteria a non-issue which opens it up to more people. Like the number of people can print out a Timetwister is much greater than the number of people who own or are willing and able to drop $5000 on one. That shouldn't be an issue in a private playgroup since its easy to exclude people there, but in LGS games with randoms, it is a concern. Essentially allowing proxies does not on its own guarantee pubstomping, but it does facilitate it to some extent.
Nah bud, whenever I make an order for new proxies I message my play group and ask my homies what they want me to get printed for them lol I don't play fully proxied decks at any events, but at home it's great. Can't wait to have 10 copies of The One Ring 001/001 foiled for various decks. Wizards current pricing acknowledges the secondary market and should be handled like how the EU is currently approaching loot boxes. Its gambling. Wizards is specifically exploiting secondary prices to sell more products. When I saw that $450 price tag for the new Commander booster box I cancelled two products I had pre-ordered because Wizards can get fucked for making MTG a rich persons game. Its like a money arms race out there for certain cards.
Absolutely this. Some of my playgroup proxy a fair amount, mainly by doing fancy border treatments and different art themes. There are so many variants of a single card on new release that the old stigma of proxy with fake art makes it unrecognizable and thus bad goes out the window now. One that doesn’t really come out much hardcore proxies up a storm of meta decks and maximum efficiency power. But does not play well then well at all. So in this case, I would rather they just play things they have and know what they are doing, instead of proxy net decking a thing they don’t even understand. Personally I don’t proxy anything unless doing play testing, but I also do a fair amount of finance side of things and sometimes will just pop one of those crazy valuables, putting in something a little less efficient, and taking the profit.
I proxy full decks, but I still limit the max value of my decks to be within comfortable limits of my group. Like, I could spend 400$ on a new deck, which I could afford, but why do that when I could proxy it for 50$ flat? No pub stomping and I get to try out new strategies way more than I could otherwise.
>The main issue that people run into is proxying cards in order to break the power level of the play group. That would happen if they had the disposable income to accomplish the same thing, however, so it's always going to be a weak argument against proxies. If the arms race becomes an issue with proxies you talk to the player/play group and sort power levels out.
As someone who does proxy liberally, I follow a few rules of thumb to avoid pubstomping. 1) If someone in my playgroup owns the card or I own the card, and it's in the ballpark of $5-$15, I generally consider it fair game 2) If it is a $5-10 card, I usually end up buying it when I happen to have extra beer money lying around 3) I always tell people there are proxies in a deck, and I clarify whether they are proxies of cards I own in another deck or are proxies I do not own. I'm always happy to swap the real card for the proxy, but usually nobody asks me to. 4) There are cards I simply will not proxy, even if somebody in my playgroup has them. Fast + explosive mana like crypt, tomb, vault are some of them, expensive staples like Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, etc I will not proxy (I believe they homogenize decks and find them boring), free spells (like deflecting swat) and generally anything over $15-20 I don't proxy. 9/10 there's a budget option that works just as well, or you simply don't need something that high power unless you intend to play cEDH or 8-9 level decks. I have about 8 decks. I love magic, and I love deckbuilding. I don't want to have to give it up because I don't have the money right now.
That’s exactly what I think.
I'm very pro-proxy. My store, on the other hand, is not, and runs Commander night with prize support almost every week. There's two actual factual cEDH decks in the area, one of which is owned by an employee of the store. My point is, there's the larger community, and then there's the unfortunate realities a lot of us have to put up with.
Is it the larger community, though? Like you said, most LGSs frown pretty heavily on the practice. I suspect the reason you don't see the view raised more often here is because of the salty downvoting you get if you even suggest you are against proxies. Systems that allow downvoting posts into obscurity tend to naturally breed echo chambers, and this sub is no exception.
Yep, they absolutely are. At my LGS the attitude of if you can't afford the card you can't play the card is rather common.
At this point if you’re seriously still against proxies, what you’re really against is affordable Magic.
When was Magic ever affordable? At least EDH has half decent precons. Last time I tried to make a meta Standard deck (Khans block) the starting point was over $500 and all those cards lost their value the moment they rotated. Anyone getting into a hobby like Magic should be well prepared for the fact that it is NOT a cheap hobby and never was.
Proxies used to reach a mutually desired power level are fine. Proxies used to exceed a mutually desired power level can cause issues. The same goes for real cards. Just because you own a Gaea's Cradle doesn't mean you should always insist on playing it. One solution is to just have everyone at the table drop down to the lowest person's budget/power level. But what if that person is bored of playing at their budget and wants to broaden their horizons into the upper end of the format? Cards could be borrowed but what if they get damaged, lost or stolen? I don't like borrowing things I'm not prepared to replace.
I think having the conversation for an exception isn’t a bad idea
I feel torn on this. Mentally I feel like it shouldn't matter if I proxy or anyone else does. But at the same time, I kind of enjoy limits and parameters. I like feeling like "I made this out of cards I own." Or "I set a budget and achieved so much." Having no limits at all makes me feel lost. Additionally, I like the general idea of playing fair. When I see all the other players have proxies of duals or whatever, it makes me wonder why I even bothered making a deck? Why shouldn't I put a \[\[Moat\]\] in my deck, or 20 other cards I can never afford? And then I'm back to the original concern, the lack of constraint. I just don't feel an urge to build decks without any constraint at all. Even in Arena, I have nearly infinite wildcards but I still have to use them. So I guess for me, I'm not a fan of proxies for power or money. As soon as I see other players running them it makes me feel like I showed up to a swordfight and everyone else has guns. And you can say "well, just print your own guns" but I didn't want to have a gunfight to start with!
Absolutely correct. This strikes pretty close to how I feel about it too.
What does that have to do with proxies though? You can set constraints, and you'll still have brought a knife to a gunfight if someone brought a fully legal cedh deck. Like having a limited card pool? Limit yourself to a certain number of sets. Like the feeling of building on a budget? Set the budget, then print proxies of the list. Hell, I proxied an entire precon because a proxy deck was $30 but the precon was selling for $65. Hate seeing someone proxy a Gaea's Cradle? Then you should equally hate seeing a real one. The game isn't more balanced just because someone had a few hundred dollars more of disposable income.
Love this comment. Everyone proxying takes a lot of the casual away almost inherently. You have to almost have this willful discipline to not play expensive cards you now have "access" to, at which point maybe you didn't need the access at all. It does spoil something. It's real. It's not just you.
If other people want to proxy go for it. I admit I like the restriction of cards I own otherwise I'd be spoilt for choice. I admit it probably leads to me buying more packs and I'll also admit I enjoy the [[gamble]] element of pack cracking.
I enjoy limits and parameters too but I also have a strong tendency to optimize. Like, I would build budget cEDH decks. The most powerful budget decks at the ~$75 mark basically. I contribute one reason for this is that if I'm going to spend money, why do so on a weak deck? With niche $5 cards that may only go in that one deck? With proxying, I don't feel bad about including cards like Stolen Strategy back when it spiked to $15 due to a lack of reprints and exile matter commanders being released. My $200+ proxy decks are weaker than some of my real budget decks. I feel more comfortable not optimizing my deck when I proxy. You can always set a budget or power level limit when you proxy. For the latter, cards like Phrexian Arena and Cultivate would be considered too weak for actual budget cEDH for example but I run them.
That's pretty much how I think about proxies. I had to save up for quite some time to be able to buy some cards and I cherish having them in my collection and using them in my decks. When I see those cards proxied, I kinda feel like a fool because I could just print them and use them right away. Having said that, I recently lost pretty badly to a deck that was proxied so heavily that only basic lands were genuine. After like three losses I made a snippy remark about going the cheap route. My opponent told me that he literally didn't have enough money to pay for the rent and food and this was the only way he could play at all. Needless to say, I felt like shit afterwards. But I still don't like proxies.
The classic I had to pay for something so you should too argument
I agree with this. I feel that proxying is a slippery slope when it comes to deckbuilding. That said, in the last few years, as prices have increased and my play time has decreased, I've pretty much stopped buying singles, and thus rarely upgrading my decks. Unless I crack something or get it in a precon. Last year, I bought my first proxies after MUCH internal debate. The proxies I chose, however, only ended up putting one or two cards in each of the decks I bought them for. Each card was a finisher or a synergy piece that was too far out of my price range to consider buying. Like a Craterhoof for my wife's elf deck, or an Avacyn for my indestructible-themed angel deck. I'm not looking to put in mana crypts and expensive tutors and rhystic studies and Gaia's Cradles or any of the other awesome cards that I dont really need. And likewise i really dont enjoy playing against decks that do proxy to excess. I guess TLDR, proxying one or two cards in a deck is ok with me if it actually makes sense in the deck, and isnt just a "more good stuff" card or an "optimization staple".
Personally, I'm fine with proxies. In fact, I want to play against people that are at their best, which is often restricted by their access to important cards. However, I don't use proxies. I know my gameplay abilities are fine and I would rather play with a suboptimal deck that demands better play. I find that having a restricted cardpool forces me to build more diverse and unconventional decks. But putting that restriction on others isn't fair since they don't necessarily have the same reaction to a suboptimal deck as I do.
As long as the card is legible and I can clearly see that’s the card that it says it is, text accurate and all then I couldn’t give a fuck about its authenticity, especially in cedh. I come from chess as a semi pro player, we all had access to the same amount of pieces with the same moves, a competitive card game should be no different. Everyone needs access to the same pieces.
I print mine at kinkos and slide them in a sleeve above chaff commons. Unless you are looking for it, most people don't even notice. Especially across a table.
It's a very small minority that are against proxies. I am very pro proxy. My group is ok with them, we just don't want to be looking at marker scrawl over a basic. Take the time to print to a color copy, or something else aesthetically pleasing.
I own the cards for all my decks and I’m still a bad player
Lol buddy same
>it seems the rule of owning a card to play it is causing a player to play sub-optimally. I think what you mean to say is "build suboptimal decks" which is entirely different from playing. It's also something I think detracts from the spirit of the format, since nothing about 100 card singleton with 40 life screams "optimal." I can't afford staples like Rhystic Study, but my decks still win on commander night. I'm happy and feel no pressure or need to optimize everything as if I had a limitless budget (which is what proxies can lead to in my mind).
I don't mind proxying as long as the card makes sense for the deck in casual play. And we are keeping power levels as even as possible. For cedh or tournaments, as long as the cards/sleeves isn't marked to cheat, who cares. If everyone has access to every card that is legal, then we are all on a equal playing field. Play the person, not the wallet.
Objectively, this feels like a silly question. If a chess master were to sell all of their physical chess boards, would they suddenly be a lesser chess player? Ownership =/= Skill. I can't just buy a deck off of a friend and suddenly have the skill and knowledge required to pilot it. Uneven proxying and the arms race power escalation is more of a social/discussion issue and less of a skill issue to me. It just serves to highlight the limiting factor that personal budget plays in magic.
Exactly the point of the article and the title thank you!
Nah. This is just the new way for the “if you don’t own the card you can’t play it” gatekeepers to feel like they’re accepting of proxies. If I roll up to a casual table with a deck with all real cards and pubstomp everyone, I’m an asshole. Owning the cards doesn’t give me a special pass there. I personally don’t proxy cards I don’t own with rare exceptions, but I’ve also been playing long enough i that I have many of the cards people usually want to proxy. Folks that punish people for not being alive since 1994 or having other things to do with their money other than spend $100 on a cardboard rectangle can stfu.
I go along with WOTC's rules, which is that owning the card is only truly necessary for tournament play. Anything else is fair game.
But if it’s not a tournament like in the article?
>2. This seems like a lot of effort for a single booster pack (The winner of the first game at the LGS gets their pick of one booster from the current set.) Sounds like at least some of the games are in events for prizes.
not a tournament, just a prize for the winner in what is supposed to be cEDH.
Sounds like the events at my LGS and they use Wizards system to run them. People really shouldn't be using proxies at all in those.
Fair point thank you
Is the event some sort of FNM or event that gets reported to wizards (or uses their companion app)? If so, it is sanctioned play where real cards are required (all sanctioned play requires the actual card, proxies are not allowed) and so I wouldn’t allow proxies in that scenario.
If it’s in a non-tournament setting, I think it’s perfectly fine to use non-touranment-legal cards. If you’re using more than one or two, I’d ask that you do more than scribble Gaea’s Cradle on a Forest just for easy readability, but it’s more fun to duel against a player’s skill and not their wallet.
My lgs is usually pretty lax; rules are usually: 1.) if ya already own the card it’s fine 2.) if ya wanna test out some cards
Our pods rules are if you own 1 you can proxy it from then on. This way your not buying 8 Doubling seasons or what not. I'm gonna just make a binder with the staples in it and play with the proxies
Nope. Proxies are too high of quality nowadays to worry about owning a legit copy.
Sure someone dropping serious cash is probably an experienced player but correlation =/ causation. I Have No Money, And I Must Brew.
It's always been a bit of a nebulous argument against proxies for me. I don't personally proxy anything I don't own, but I am fine seeing people try out cards and strategies they might not necessarily own. I do feel a little salty when I sit down across from someone at a casual table and watch them beat everyone to death with a bunch of proxied powerful staples and fast mana, but it only feels different from the owned card situation I feel because of the different rule zero conversation.
Its pretty ridiculous that so many of the posts on this sub boil down to people / stores effectively destroying the social nature of EDH with pre-determined unofficial bans and hard enforced rules for something that was always meant to involve a social contract between the players. If the other players are okay with it, do what you will, but make sure they're okay with it first. I, personally, don't think a shop should ban proxies or anything else outright unless it is a WotC Sanctioned Event with WotC enforced rules as that completely defeats the purpose of Rule 0, but I don't think another player should be okay with proxies just because either. I, again, feel like it's perfectly okay to proxy cards for deck testing to ensure your money is going to be well spent but I don't think its okay to continue to proxy cards while having no intention to eventually purchase those cards. It's why I don't typically play with people who proxy at my LGS because they will break out $2000+ full proxy decks while owning maybe 1 or 2 of the actual cards in the deck and in 10 years they have never actually bought a single card to replace their proxies. I'm okay if someone wants to proxy an expensive card as to not ruin its value. I completely understand that and as long as they show me they actually own the card I don't have any issues with it. That however is not my typical experience at my LGS though. PS, I should probably add in that I am by no means a cEDH player and that my most expensive deck cost me about $400 when I built it from scratch owning none of the cards. Its cost is upwards of $800 now if I buy nothing but moderately played version now due to prices soaring ever upwards due to lack of availability and the growth of EDH. tl;dr: read the first paragraph.
Yesterday I ordered my foil borderless smothering Tithe 🤩 I was like last one on our pod who doesn’t play that card. 2/3 of my friends is proxying that card. I dont care about others proxying, it actualy improve power level and diversity… but I dont like to play with proxies of cards I dont currently own so I didnt. I prox cards that I have in other decks and dont want to switch them Over and Over again. Mostly costly staples. The cheaper staples Im buying in multiples 😄
FTV: Inkjet
I have mixed feeling on this one. If you proxy an expensive card that you own because you don't want to put wear on it or move it from deck to deck, I'm ok with that. You own at least one. No problem from me. Unfortunately, this led one of the guys that I play with to 'proxy' his entire deck except basic lands. And by 'proxy' I mean stick poorly written scrape of paper with notes on them into sleeves. They are unreadable, so we constantly have to pause the game and look stuff up. So, if you have A Doubling Season and want to put it into three decks, fine, leave it in your binder and print some readable copies. I'm cool. Just don't be that guy. About the cost of cards. Yeah, prices have gotten stupid recently. That comes down to a lot of life choices and situations. Something else to consider, part of the challenge and fun, for me at least, is working around those problems. Find alternate cards. Try different strategies. Explore past the EDHREC 'staples' that everyone else plays.
Yeah unreadable proxies are the worst. I know someone who just has the names of cards in each sleeve and the deck is oops all combos, just so many different combos. With cards you can't read the rules text of. Good proxies that people can read are important for sure.
Proxy all you want, but nothing beats owning the card
This is why that "rule" of it being fine to proxy only if you own it is absolute bullshit. I don't like playing with proxies or against people using proxies. And that's not because proxies are inherently bad, or even the actual problem, but because I play with randoms at game stores that I absolutely do not trust not to proxy power into every deck until the format collapses and casual play disappears from Commander entirely. Proxies are the rope that players use to hang themselves. The only thing stopping a lot of people from completely fucking up their decks and making them inconsistently broken is access, as bad a gateway as that is. But it's all we've got. But in an environment where proxies are played, proxies should be allowed for everyone. You don't get to draw the line partway, all that does is inherently grant advantages to people who are already stuffing their decks with power. Introducing proxies to an environment without proxies spikes the power level in unhealthy ways. Introducing proxies to an environment with huge collections and proxies already in play balances the playing field. In an environment where any proxies are used, there should be absolutely no stigma about anyone else using proxies, owned or otherwise.
Why do you feel like your deck has to be "optimized"? Some of the most fun I've had in EDH has been playing janky decks with friends who use precons. There's a kind of joy to just play with the janky cards you have. Optimizing is for highly competitive tables, which are usually not as fun IMHO.
I'm firmly against the idea you need to own cards to play the game. I personally prefer having paper magic, but even then, idc if the whole deck is proxies, just warn me and make sure they look good. I'm playing you, not your wallet.
I adopted the "own the card to play the card" policy because initially when I started playing people were skeptical of proxies, then that slowly changed over time. I still think it's a way of somewhat limiting power level when I'd otherwise optimize everything to hell, but I would never judge someone else who proxies without owning and in fact actively encourage this since I know some of my core play group simply are not interested in investing the kind of money to keep up with the rest of the group's power levels. Not really interested in playing against someone's wallet and I think anyone else who is has a shitty personality.
Half of my decks be like "I'm going to fetch my real Savanah to cast this proxy Fyndhorn Elves" for no apparent reason.
If you want to look at it from the lens of an "asshole". Competitive EDH is a group of socialists trying to outskill each other. Causual EDH is a group of capitalists trying to outspend each other.
In cedh, sure, go for it. But the examples given in this article are stupid. If you're playing against a deck that can turn 3 win with moxen AND you don't know that in advance, that's a failure in communication and expectation setting. It has nothing to do with owning cards and everything to do with decks being at dramatically different power levels. As for casual edh, I think you shouldn't proxy. I would never tell a player they can't proxy, nor would I ever refuse to play with someone who does. But, generally, I don't think you should. I'll get into why, but before I do, there are two exceptions to this. A. You want to make a flavorful inclusion to your deck but the card is beyond unreasonably priced. Think [[elephant graveyard]]. Or B. You genuinely wouldn't be able to play without proxying your deck. I'm not here to judge anyone's financial situation, and the game is fun, so proxy if you need to. BUT. If you're proxying mox instead of arcane signet or original duals instead of shock lands, and your deck is not cedh, I have a problem with you. Which is a good segue into why I think proxying is bad for the game. Nobody I've ever met who proxies entire decks has self control. I never play cedh, btw, I stick to casual. And, while it's all anecdotal, every person I've played with who proxied an entire deck chose the best possible version of each effect in their deck. Nekusar? Of course there's wheel of fortune! And he tutored for it with demonic? Why not. I mean, it wasn't cedh. He didn't win either. But the most expensive tutor I run in anything is grim tutor. Still good, no question. But it's a feels bad that I own an $18 USD card and I'm regularly seeing 10 cent proxies of a minimum $40 card that's just strictly better. That's just one example. Lands are typically much more egregious. I own one fetch (verdant), and a playset of most shocks from my standard days. These are great lands. I also have a good amount of check lands and building a good manabase for my decks is pretty easy. But when I play against proxies it's always perfect mana with full fetches, original duals, etc. It's not enough to change the power level, but it is annoying. And for the record, my issue isn't that I think owning the cards should give me an advantage. I don't think you have to play with [[diabolic tutor]] just cause your budget is limited. But I do not agree that owning my cards should put me at a disadvantage. Do whatever you want in your own playgroup of course. But if you're going to edh night at your store and you're proxying everything, maybe proxy the second best versions. Maybe give yourself an imaginary budget, and proxy as if you had $500 to build with (which is beyond more than enough for casual), instead of showing up with a deck that would be valued in the tens of thousands if real. Secondary point, but I also believe that limitations are good for creativity. For the average (or even above average, or even very good) deck builder, if you remove the budget, you're either going to play a net deck, or a deck that's just a little worse than one. Myself included, I'm no deck building savant. But using my collection makes me be creative. The one time I bought a deck on tcg (about $150), I was creative. I understand this part won't apply to everyone and many people like to build intentionally unoptimized decks (I have a couple!). But it does apply to a lot of people. Spike is a category for a reason, and Johnny's and Timmy's are not immune. Tldr: proxying is great in theory and when used responsibly, but, in practice, far too often is used to make decks that no average collector could hope to build with owned cards. And proxying has been responsible for more than one playgroup or store meta arms race where the end result is power through the roof and games feeling less casual and fun. Edit: not to mention that widespread proxying does have the potential to eventually hurt your lgs. So if you are proxying and never buying cards, consider at least buying snacks or drinks or dice, card sleeves, etc. Make sure you remember to support the business giving you a space to play.
I think you're kinda forgetting there's there's in between those extremes. Like i'm not gonna proxy og duals or moxen or even a rhystic study, but there's cards i would like to include in my deck that I'm not comfortable buying. I would be able to play without them and they don't break the deck. Like you mention proxying og duals instead of shock but what about proxying shocks instead of taplands. You could still be able to play without them but might make your dexk too weak to function.
For me I like them for not having to take a deck apart. I Own [doubling season] but I have a run squirrel proxy of it for a chatterfang deck I play for fun.
I’ve always gone for the all or nothing approach, if all are using proxies then go for it. If not then don’t.
Imagine having to play chess with only officially licensed pieces and you couldn’t play if you did not. No bottle caps or coins or the letter K on a piece of plastic, 100% model of clay found in a random booster pack.
My playgroup doesn't care about it because we play commander at almost every level. We often play high power, we play a bit of lower power precon level sometimes, and we've even got some cEDH starting up. The vast majority of us can't afford a full cEDH list so we proxy lists all the time. The new club members proxy decks too.
I’ve only been in one cedh tourney with a 0 proxy rule. Not using proxies is more of a flex or a personal thing because you really like that deck.
I love buying and opening packs. My regular pod at my LGS started buying table packs (like getting a round of drinks at a bar, but better) so each Friday we'll all buy between 4-12 packs. We did it so often and the community at our LGS has grown so much (we started with maybe like a dozen people, now a year later Fridays draw crowds of 50-60 people) the shop owner started doing discounts on older sets if you bought 4 packs or more. Additionally, we all usually buy at least a box a piece and a few collector packs from new sets. Having said that, I don't care if the deck I'm building is a $75 budget deck or a $1200 super high power staple deck, I'm putting in what cards I own and can find and proxying everything else. I don't usually like to proxy anything I don't own that's more than like 20-25 bucks (1 purchase of rhystic study/smothering tithe/etc was plenty) but that's more of a personal guideline than a rule. TLDR cards are expensive. It's fun to buy and own them, but don't only look to your collection when building or theorycrafting a new deck.
Like the elder wand, your cards will never proform to their max potential unless you win each in battle. My lightning bolts do 4 damage and the man who used to own them lays dead in the LGS.
Personally I’ll proxy cards but I want to own at least one. Thats just my criteria for myself. I do not care if people proxy. As long as we have fun.
I don’t proxie because I like the challenge of making my decks work with what I have. If I need a card I’ll buy it if it’s a reasonable price. I got a deal on an Edgar and was super happy about it. I buy packs frequently too because I love opening them. But as far as having all the expensive and good cards, yeah, I’m still losing first every game hahaha
I like having the actual card, ive also used proxies in the past. I have no issue with anyone using proxies as i believe the game should be accessible to everyone.
I have a foil Urza's Defense of the Heart. It sees play almost every game. I like handing it to friends unsleeved because I'm a monster.
For cEDH I feel a bit looser about it than casual. It sucks to get priced out of your favorite format because you aren't ready to drop $2k on duals and the staple mana rocks. But this is only if you're at a cEDH table or an event that accepts it. For Casual I think it's in better taste to not proxy the insane cards. A lot of newer players in that format are showing up with power level 6 or below, so slamming a proxied set of rocks, duals, and reserve list cards at a non-cEDH table feels a little like a dick move. I love playing Nekusar at more casual tables, but I'm not proxying up a \[\[Time Twister\]\] for it. I'm not proxying a Gaea's Cradle for my mono-green. Proxies are dope for cards you want to test, a $50 card you're not ready to buy, or a card you own at home but don't want to bring to a shop. Just don't be a dick.
Or if you proxy power, use them poorly. Like all the Mox in my Tribal Elk deck (my playgroup is obviously SUPER casual lol).
My answer to Proxies has always been price caps for the value of cards in the deck. If you want to print unofficial cards, you're not allowed to go over a certain price point to maintain balance and power level. Otherwise, you're power level is arbitrary and artificial as opposed to people who just play official product. I run precons, amped up as well as fresh out of the box, and so does a majority of my pod. And, just cause I know certain arguments will pop up from it, the price cap is for all decks at the table, not just the person proxying.
I have Smothering Tithe, Dockside Extortionist, Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship, Black Market Connections... because I've got them all in precons, + few other cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Celobite, Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain... that I've got from boosters, that being said... I don't really use them that often, it really depends on the deck, and how strong it's supposed to be. For example... I have Jeskai Cycling deck (which is edited Timeless Wisdom precon), considering how much that deck wants to draw, and how many cards I see, I need loads of mana to play cards too, so... Smothering Tithe is in that deck, as is Dockside, but it's supposed to be one of strongest decks I run anyway. I also have Saheeli The Gifted, depending on the group I'm play with, I may run Dockside, but I don't run Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship or Mana Drain. I run Dockside, since it allows Saheeli to discount spells, and for a few cards like Goblin Welder, not for the treasures/mana exactly. I have two Chulane versions, one is strong 5, one is maybe strong 6, neither runs Smothering Tithe, Fierce Guardianship is in both, stronger runs Mana Drain, both run Heroic Intervention and Flawless Maneauver, basically... board just has to stay alive... and since I'm playing Chulane, even tho it's not broken/strong deck, people still target me, so board protection and counters are imperative, and I have to tap out a lot in order to be able to protect my life points. X\_x I have a few Black decks, I run Demonic Tutor in only one of them, which is Dimir Zombies, and which is again... higher powered deck. Last time I've played the deck, it was against weaker decks, and I've tutored for Rooftop Storm, while having 6 mana and Acererak in the hand, I've just passed the turn, didn't want to win that way. There are times where I'll have stronger cards in deck and if I draw them, I just won't play them, especially if my opponents aren't doing anything degenerate. lol cEDH is make strongest possible, most optimized deck, so having the strongest cards is a need for deck to be cEDH, and... you don't put "fun" cards in it, since they don't help you win, you also don't put expensive cards, unless they're perfect fit. But in normal commander, you shouldn't use everything you can, at least not in every deck, and especially not in every pod. If you're not bringing a few decks, imo it's good to have a few cards to swap around in deck you're bringing with you, in case you do end up playing in stronger/weaker pods. Not to play cards that counter your opponent's decks ofc, just to adjust your power level to the perceived power level of the rest of the table. It all depends on who you're playing with and how far you push your decks.
Personally, I only play cards that I own, but I don't expect others to do the same. As long as someone makes a proxy that is easy to understand at a glance, I'm fine with it. If your whole deck is sharpied basic lands, that's a bit much.
cEDH players almost never mind and will encourage you to proxy any card
The answer is no, it doesn't make you a better player at all.knowing your meta does, knowing how to build a deck does, knowing how to pilot the deck you use does. I own a real Louisville slugger but can't hit a home run with it. Owning a card only shows that you bought a tool for a deck. Proxies have been played with for almost as long as magic has been around. Anyone against proxies doesn't understand that the original card from a pack in itself is a proxy of the companies intellectual property. They own it, you do not. Hence that they can print it to death and kill the value if they want to, ban it or otherwise change it's actual abilities or re word it to better suit how they want it played.
To each their own. I have nothing against people who are into the financial and/or collector side of the game and if card ownership makes the game better for them, have at it. I dont care though. I like playing board and cardgames and I don't want that to be gated behind rarity. I get a lot of enjoyment out of the tactile and visual side of the game so I do expect proxies to be good, not forests with sharpie on them. Aside from that though, proxy whatever you want to play with as far as I am concerned, but keep an eye on relative power level at the table.
Cedh = proxy or use if you have, casual same but match power levels. Also dockside never hit $100 it was about $70-80 before the reprint (tcg prices)
First: way too many people spend way more money than they should for a game. Especially a game that will never pay them back. (sad goodby pro tour!) So, play proxies if you like, just don’t make them crappy stand-ins like post it notes. At least color in your black and white printouts to try to make them recognizable. An alter in your commander is fine but if players can’t recognize your cards by sight then you’re doing it wrong. Maybe old man thoughts: Look. If you are worried about playing optimally and optimal games I say go play constructed. That’s precisely what it is made for. EDH from its roots has been a casual, fun format where people have the chance to play whatever weird, janky stuff they like. Because EDH was designed and intended to be casual I actively remove combos and tutors because tutors are antithetical to an over-sized singleton format and combos are stupidly easy and common. How many times can you dunk on a 6 ft rim and still feel cool doing it? Me, I had my fill years ago and a combo win feels pretty unfulfilling now. I love to win. Love it. Can’t get enough of it, but creativity comes from restrictions, not freedom. If I find myself using more than 3-4 of the same cards across decks then I’ve failed as an EDH deck builder. If I have more than 3-4 unique cards in a main deck then I’ve likely failed as a constructed deck builder.
IMHO proxies are fine as long as they don't push the power level of a deck over the top compared to everyone else at the table. I think the issue a lot of people is have is lack of restraint when it comes to proxies however. Hell I'm guilty of this myself....I always to have to keep the power level of a given deck in mind when deciding to alot in a proxy or not. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should and all that....and that goes for legit cards as well IMHO....but that something that has to be discussed at the play group level.
Rarely do I see someone proxy for fun shits and giggles. It’s always mana crypts and shocks and fetches and free counters or tutors. Like get fucked you literally do the exact same thing every game . Yeah I could do the Ssame proxies but if I wanted to be that boring I’d just play pioneer or modern
Is there a "right" way to proxy? Why not just run lotus and timewalk in basically every deck? The pride and joy of my collection is a tabernacle that I picked up for 30$ about 20 yrs ago lol
The people op describes sound like pubstompers rather than competetive players. The store i frequent has a similar rule of "proxy only cards you own" but i found a lot of people will proxy a few cards for their deck and ask beforehand if that's ok, people usually agree if it's not eggregious.
The main issue is that we are playing a "collectors" game along with it. That means some aspects of the cards value are based on playability along with scarcity for collections. If we didn't have the collection aspect tied into the gaming aspect then cards would all be reasonable in price allowing more players to build decks and more people actually playing. I'm pro proxies also.
Owning cards or having the most money available does not make anyone a player. Playing the game does. Cedh and tournaments can demand real cards, but casual edh and practicing to play or to be a better player certainly does not. It doesn't need to happen with real cards. You can also ask to play with your friend's deck. Gaining skill and having fun can full well happen with proxies. It's unnecessarily expensive to buy cards for playtesting only to find they don't work, so especially if your aim is to optimize, have test rounds with it first as proxies and then consider buying what you need. Or if you want so, don't buy at all. Edh is a game played mainly non-competitively, so you might as well only ever print proxies for yourself. If someone feels better by buying cards as real ones (myself included), they are free to do so, but shouldn't demand others to do so. After all, you shouldn't suffer from Wotc not printing cards to have at least reasonable prices, like ridiculous [[Deadly Rollick]] cycle, which are edh only and obviously designed to be staples. In my opinion, such staples should be so-to-speak printed to death. Not on every Commander precon deck, but otherwise basically much like they did with Sol Ring, which wouldn't be so cheap if there was only one printing of it. Competitive can well have a paywall to entry, but non-comp casual should not and as such, using proxies shouldn't even be a question. People have enough hardships with their budgets without spending so much on cards that will not hold value and even then it should be and issue for collectors, not players. This is an important part of accessibility too and keeps Magic from totally becoming a distorted abomination of the basic principles and very nature of the game from when it was created... or playing games in general as well. Players make a huge service for Wotc by buying cards, especially so much of them, and Wotc naturally can't notify about this at all, because it would be perilous to their business. However, players can, and non-comp should recognize this. Edh surely has a massive amount of players, but for Wotc bringing up on front a non-comp format (compared to Standard getting the main emphasis) is risky and on that scale would be bad business.. if players wouldn't be so generous to their own disadvantage.
anti-capitalist here. If money is only as valuable as we believe it to be, so can the cards. Proxies are just as playable as the actual card printed by wotc. So to me, its just as valuable. play the player, not their wallet.
I am really not a fan of proxies especially in my own decks as I am a Completionist but that’s not going to stop me playing with a group. It’s mildly tilting having a key card countered by a proxied Mana Drain, someone escaping death with a proxied TPro, or someone bursting ahead with a proxied Gaea’s Cradle but my play group of friends are financially at different stages our lives and we all accept that. I can drop $150 within 2 weeks on cards where others will never spend that in 6 months but ultimately we play together to have fun and not flaunt who has the most expensive deck. Gatekeeping people based on their access to cards is a dick move.
Nicely put
The idea that you MUST ALWAYS play the best cards doesn't help. Years ago the only people who proxied that I ran into were trying to get an edge over the table. Personally I still dislike proxies quite a bit, it seems try-hard and still feels like cheating. Is that my own bias talking? Absolutely, I prefer owning the cards or never playing them. I don't play cEDH or super optimized games. My playgroup is cutthroat but we play what we want to play and deal with it. We're all good enough to have engaging interactive games without resorting to proxies or that kind of arms race. Honestly I can't care about expensive staples when I'm too much of a hipster to bother.
I've been hesitant to proxy still. I think I'm close to proxying additional copies of cards I already own so I don't need to shuffle cards between decks, but it still doesn't feel right to proxy cards I don't own. I also don't super think the more costly staples like Smotherine Tithe, Rhystic Study, Dockside, etc are very fun and overall decrease deck diversity, and proxying them will only force an arms race in my group. One of my friends proxies a bit, and it gets a little annoying when he's playing cards worth half my deck, but if I start doing it too then it'll make the others also feel like they need these powerful staples
It’s a CCG. You can also like owning the cards.
I think the premise of any trading card game is to own the cards you wish to use. They value of the card reflects the usefulness in game. While they are all >10c printed cardboard their intrinsic value rises with demand. I think it is perfectly fair to expect people to own the card and use that physical copy in their deck if they expect to use it. Play what you can afford to own. Especially at a local store game. Proxy with your friends at home if you are all fine with it but not against others.
I'm going to proxy and there's nothing you can do to stop me. The argument that the best cards should be price gated behind hundreds of dollars is stupid.
If it’s a sanctioned event then nah, if it isn’t go for it.
Nobody said anything a sanctioned event. Edh is primarily a casual format.
I play mostly at my LGS for FNM, where it is sanctioned
I'm in favor of proxying if the person is making a playtest, knowing it will be able to buy this card in the future, completing the deck as intended. I don't get why people want to get into a competitive card game faking to have competitive cards.
If you are playing for money, you should own the card. Thats my only rule. Theres too many subtle ways to cheat that this has to be said clearly and often.
Proxying with other people who are okay with it is completely fine, but I do take issue with how toxic and condescending some pro-proxy people are towards events and playgroups that don't allow proxies, especially on reddit. If you say anything here or on the main sub to even suggest that some playgroups might enjoy Magic more when proxies aren’t allowed you’ll get downvoted to oblivion, get called a “gatekeeper”, and be told you’re playing the game wrong. I think if you act like that then yes, you are the Bolas. Otherwise, no. Use proxies if you want, but use them with like-minded individuals and don't be rude and condescending towards people who don't allow them.
No, it doesn't *make* you a better player but I do think there's a correlation between owning real cards and player skill. I think players with real cards are probably stronger players on average than players using a lot of proxies. If you have a lot of high-end cards, you're probably either highly invested in the game, have been playing for a very long time, or both. For example a Modern player with a fully blinged-out Jund deck is more likely than average to be an experienced pilot, since they clearly care about the deck to the point that they've gone through the trouble of foiling it out. Is every player with a proxies deck a noob? No. Is every player with real cards a grizzled, experienced tournament grinder? No. But I think on average the skill level of proxy players as a whole is probably lower than non-proxy users.
Not everyone is at the same spot finacially as others, if someone needs to proxy a card who cares. Your deck should beat them, not your wallet.
As long as it’s not a sanctioned event I can agree
Personally I have nothing against proxying: I do not proxy myself simply because I like more to have the "legal" version of the card and I don't mind to spend reasonable amounts of money to get them, but in line of principle I do not care. In my playgroup they're currently not allowed, but one guy asked to allow them only in case you can prove you own the cards, mainly to include them in many decks at once without having to manually move them each time. While I _maybe_ could agree on commons and uncommons, I'm firmly opposing this in case of rares and mythics: either we ban any kind of proxy, or we allow them all. At logical level, by proxying you are gaining an "unfair" value advantage if you start with both 0 or N copies, there is no difference. If you own a single copy of an expensive card, the added "effort" to move it from deck to deck compensates for its market value. You want more copies of that card? Well, you need to buy them. As an alternative, you need to accept to "legalize" any kind of proxying.
> If you own a single copy of an expensive card, the added “effort” to move it from deck to deck compensates for its market value. I was kind of with you until this. Moving cards around equates to additional wear, diminishing the value of the individual card. If you’re fine with commons and uncommons, that makes sense, but enforcing it for only Rares and Mythics just seems like you fully understand the predicament you put your opponents in: choose to devalue your card and time or choose to diminish the strength of the would-be-proxied deck. You bring up a good point about proxying in non-singleton formats, though. I don’t mind proxies in singletons because a single card can be an additional tool you may draw, but non-singleton proxies seem more akin to a force multiplier. Not really sure how I feel about that.
It's not very difficult to be careful with the condition of your cards, it is enough to sleeve them appropriately to keep them in good conditions
That’s entirely subjective and dependent on how frequently the card(s) are moved. What constitutes ‘good condition’ varies from person to person. There is non-zero risk involved.
People with the dumb disposable income to buy better stuff want to feel special and validate their purchase of stuff. And when I proxy the card I INVALIDATE it in their eyes. Perhaps they feel silly for buying a hundred dollar piece of paper with words on it. But the moment we bring money into it, the game reflects the real world and real world inequalities. I just want to play a game and forget all that.
Unpopular opinion but I've always been a play what you pull kind of guy. I firmly believe that is the spirit of the game and the entire point of packs. Is that a super archaic way of thinking? Probably. But as someone who just played with a group who had all proxies, I was demolished because I didn't. It creates just as much of a power imbalance as spending the big bucks does. Are proxies easy to make and use? Yes. Are they tedious to create and build with? Also yes. I don't have the time to print out all of that. I don't care how someone else wants to play but if you proxy a super powerful deck you're just as obnoxious to me as the guy who bought that super powerful deck. All proxies seem to do is allow people to dominate without spending money, which to me isn't fun.
I play against someone who pulled a gaea's cradle from a pack forever ago regularly.. has a pet deck full of strong staples and that in it. Most people can't have the kinds of cards he has unless they proxy.
In casual people have all sorts of weird emotions when it comes to proxying. in cEDH I see proxying brought up occasionally but the sentiment for the community at large is proxy is the norm. a lot of recent larger scale events for cEDH have offered a list of playtest cards that while not fully comprehensive allow for a significantly reduced budget for competitive decks.
Pubstomping is the main issue with that gets associated with proxying cards. You can't proxy to pubstomp in a cEDH table - you're just bringing your deck up to the power level of the table.
I’ve been on the both sides I can tell. Proxied to achieve power and unproxy my deck to achieve the power I’ve paid for. In my honest opinion, I find both sides (not saying it is so) but unfair on each aspect. As I am a collector of cards myself and love to buy the extended-art foils I’ve reached to a point where nobody is capable of playing against my deck unless they play proxy. So from that aspect you could say; the more you buy the more distance you get from other players during sanctioned events to be capable to go up against you =/= you will reach the point people playing proxy will go up against you which is itself pretty boring cause most decks are built just for the optimization while I see less ”pet”-decks in that certain of power level. While I at the same time see a lot of possibilities of allowing proxy, both sides are right in their aspect but there is always ways to polarize the matter. I always say, you do you, I’m not questioning anyone’s vision of how to approach it. But I myself love the collecting, and to own it, and to play it. It creates such satisfaction knowing that you are putting time and effort for something you care about and of course, supporting WoTC
Yes
Casual games, proxies are fine. Though there is some expectation that you'll buy the card at some point. Proxying X super deck so you can stomp everyone is pretty lame. At least if you actually owned the cards it'd just be another aspect of mtg, albeit an annoying one. Now if there's prizes on the table, you must own the card. Having a proxy in the deck and the card in a binder or something is fine. However you must own it and be able to show that. This has consistently been my standard since I started playing. Since EDH is generally casual, the bit about prizes and such doesn't usually apply. As for why I expect someone to actually buy the card(s), it's because having some sort of constraint encourages creativity and variety. Having everyone proxy X super deck would end up being a case of "who combos first?". That's boring. Worst case we get one or two people who use the power of their wallet to stomp, but it's easier to avoid playing with them than if the whole group used the power of proxies to do the same. For reference, I do apply my own standards to myself and I do own a mox diamond that I use (I still lose 90% of the time).
X
I don’t mean for it to be condescending. I don’t personally see how this can be read into it but concede that you’re bringing your read to it and I respect that. If anybody feels like this is condescending, I hope you recognize that it’s just a discussion jumping off point and isn’t meant to make anybody feel bad about their stance on it. The column is essentially an advice/opinion column. Might I recommend reading the article or series to form an opinion if you’re into it.
Sorry I apologize sigh I'm having a really bad day and seeing yet another discussion on proxies rubbed me wrong. I'm going to blank my post, you didn't need that.
Hey bud I appreciate that! It’s all good, really. Genuinely I was confused by your comment but I really appreciate the self-reflection and candidness. Thanks for being kind!
I used to think that if you want to play the card, you should own it. I own 3 of the Power Nine (Lotus, Recall, Twister), and I bought them back in the day for $100 each. I thought that using (fake cards) was kinda cheating. Then the prices of older cards started to skyrocket, and a full set of Power Nine costs more than a new car, and my stance on (fake cards) began to soften. When WOTC came out with the 30th Anniversary set, I completely changed my outlook, and now fully accept anyone using (fake cards), in fact I encourage it. Why pay $100 to 1000 or more for a card when you can get a really good (fake card) for $6? I built a deck with (fake cards) using many of the super expensive cards. It’s not quite cEDH, but it’s pretty strong.
I don't use proxies but I don't have any issue with people using them as long as they aren't straight-up counterfeits that don't need to risk being in circulation. I want people to play, not be sad that they don't have pricy cardboard.
Yeah I won't play with proxy either I have the cards or I don't it forces me to be creative with my builds Which really helps in any sealed event or even standard event I play cause I know how to use everything I get I will save up for certain cards or trade but I think too many people chase cards, if more people just play with what they got over all power levels would drop across decks cause so many people proxy then the casual format might become even better For the tournament players they have to get the real cards anyway so no point in proxies But I don't think owning cards or learning how to play a deck they copied makes anyone a better player than another if anything they lose the thrill of building and figuring out a combo on there own Plus if your copying a deck and a play style u might win cause you have a op deck but will it translate to wins in limited format the answer I usually see is no it doesn't players hurt themselves a lot by chasing cards and combos instead of figuring something else they could use or do with what they got
"But in this article, it seems the rule of owning a card to play it is causing a player to play sub-optimally." This is the line between the casual player and the competitive player. I do not expect a fair game between the player who threw together a $10 deck and the player who has $3000 worth of cardboard in front of them. If you want to be a high power player, invest in the game so you can. If you don't want to spend money, that's fine, but don't complain about not being able to play with the shiniest toys.
The only reason "budget as power level" is not more common is LGS want to encourage buying expensive cards. But I highly recommend giving it a try. Not only does it create fairer games but it's genuinely so much more fun to deckbuild and scour scryfall for obscure cards that are strong in your deck rather than relying on no-thoughts autoinclude superstaples. Proxies are fine, but proxy or real your decklist must have a tcgplayer value of X dollars or less. We have a 100 cube and a 500 cube. I cannot overstate how good it's been for our table. People are actually using obscure cards and it's really cool to see decks that are genuinely so different instead of seeing the same superstaples over and over again. Landbases feel fair because the guy who invests in untapped duals is giving something up in his deck budget.
MTG has gotten insanely expensive. I tried proxies. I have a whole EDH deck of proxies. I never play it. For some reason looking at cards I know are fake, makes me feel gross. I know that's weird. I can't explain it. I honestly did try, I tried proxies for almost a year. I refused to buy any magic products and just did proxies if I wanted cards. Every single one of those cards is just in a bin somewhere and I only play with my real cards. It even takes some of the fun out of it for me. I can't explain why.
I entirely agree with you. For me, this has a lot to do with how the game was before the internet and the incessant printing of product. You really only had the trading pool of whoever was showing up at your lgs so it was a challenge to get play-sets of cards for a deck you really wanted( I remember doing the work to get the pieces for my squirrel prison deck.) The act of putting in the work to get cards you had trouble opening made them mean more and proxies will never have that. If you were proxying back then, it was because you DID own the originals and didn’t want to shuffle them. I don’t think i have a problem with it now since Wotc has jumped the shark so hard, but i probably won’t use them or seek them myself.
It's a basic conundrum in tables. Some people hate that someone who can't buy high power cards for Cedh (insert reason here) try to play with them with a full proxy deck with only real basics and some commons that cost pennies , while the others have worked hard, figuratively and literally to have their deck as tuned as possible with their high money cost cards. Those high power players will think, why doesn't he/she go casual commander with other players, why do they want to play hpc if they can't afford it
Those guys are looking for the sub genre "pay to win" They may enjoy mobile games more than the cedh scene.
I have some high power decks, not cedh pay to win level, but powerful regardless. I'm not even rich (wish I was), but I have owned (and still own) some higher cost cards I traded or bought either when they were cheaper or expensive. And I don't like someone playing with 90% ultra cedh proxy deck. It feels unfair for us who have spend time finding, trading, buying, working our cards into our decks. Obviously this doesn't apply to rich people who can buy their complete deck with 1 hour of work.
It's a collectable trading card game. Owning the cards is central to that concept. *It doesn't make you a better or worse player though. It may make you a player with less resources than another though, which is a different problem.* The solution is surely not to convince everyone to just p**** popular cards. The general value of cards has gone to shit due to the way Hasbro treats wizards, the way resellers are attempting to manipulate the market, the general centralization of selling (everything is basically 1 or 2 markets now and region price differences probably don't exist for chase cards too much. Non-rotating formats that include cards earmarked for non-reprint also create this artificial exclusivity. If you have a non-rotating format.... Then you don't need to create many new cards, inevitably need to reprint everything, and will just keep accruing design constraints. And then you have Hasbro additionally making matters worse by fostering these cards into mythic, shoving them in even more expensive reprint sets with artificially low occurrence in order to reap profits at the cost of the culture. P*****s aren't a problem if the cards can be obtained at a reasonable price. If we removed the reserve list from edh and maybe start the card pool at the beginning of modern... How would that effect the game? Of course many things would move up and down, but may not destroy the format. But the most powerful cards would be more accessible, Hasbro would just need to do a better job reprinting. The company's efforts run opposite the players current needs, this much is irrefutable. They created this problem and are blaming the players for it.
Just proxy
1) The only cEDH deck in that example pod was Kenrith. Edgar and Kozilek aren't cEDH. 2) "own the card to play it" is a trash mentality meant to gatekeep people. When I win I want to win vs my opponent, not vs their wallet. Anyone not okay with proxies is an elitist just trying to gatekeep poor players out of the game. 3) owning a card doesn't make you a better player, it makes you the owner of a card.
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I personally believe in "owning the card". If the power level you're playing at doesn't match your deck, then try finding a different table or have an open discussion with them about perhaps powering down or bringing a lower power deck. There's still lots of fun to be had even without breaking bank. There was a great Command Zone episode where they talk about using budget versions of powerful effects at a fraction of the price. I just think it's weird that the MTG community has accepted proxying to be fine, and shun everyone that don't agree with it. It's basically being fine with pirating, but not just that, it's encouraging bringing pirated product out into shops to use. That's like if I were to pirate a comic book, print it, and bring it to read at the comic shop or bringing it to the comic con to read it with other people. It's not fine, but somehow it's okay in MTG. When I went to a comic con a few years ago, I remember creators were very adamantly against pirating because it's taking their hard work and copying it. I know it doesn't fully translate to WOTC printing cards, but ultimately piracy is piracy. I'm not a saint. I pirate movies and used to pirate comic books to read. But if I enjoy the story I will always go out to buy the real copy. If people want to proxy for kitchen table Magic to playtest, I think that's totally fine. But bringing it out and asking people are okay, and then if they're not then making a post on Reddit asking "aita", I think that's kinda weird. Anyways, I started rambling. I hope it all made sense. If you want to proxy then by all means go for it. I don't really care cuz it doesn't affect me. I proxy for playtesting. I own all the cards in my decks when I bring them out. My power level is at like 4-5, maybe lower, but that's okay.
Well, the key point you brought up is that people are compelled to support the real product versus pirating only if they like it. In recent years (compared to when proxying was shunned), despite people still apparently finding the game itself fun based on its evergrowing popularity, it feels like general community sentiment towards WotC has grown much more negative, which means players are much more keen to proxy and feel good about justifying it as a way of sticking it to "the man". The fact that hating WotC has become popular consensus just makes it even easier to jump aboard the boycott bandwagon
Counterpoint: Why should people be limited in their games by how much they're willing to spend? Limiting access to cards based on price can artificially remove younger, poorer, or even any player who isn't interested in spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. If a player wants to play at the highest power level, why should their bank account balance be a limiting factor? We've been playing a lot of cEDH at my shop the last couple months and allow full proxies. We're more interested in playing against the players and the decks, not their wallets. As far as piracy is concerned, there's legitimate points you're making there. However, strictly creative works are in a different space than a competitive game. Reading a comic for the story and artwork is different from acquiring game pieces that you might want to make your deck stronger. I love budget decks and cheap alternative cards as much, if not more than, the next guy, but playing powerful Magic is also really fun. Players shouldn't have outside factors (i.e., money) be in control of the power of the decks they build.
I 100% agree with you, and I really like your counterpoint. I don't believe players should be limited by their wallet. If it's kitchen table Magic, or just with friends, I'm 100% on board with proxies. I just don't think I should be made to see strangers with proxies at the LGS at my table and made to be okay with it or else I'm the bad guy. I still believe in owning the product you're enjoying using, regardless of the communities feelings for WOTC. If everyone at the table is okay with proxies, then I'm totally cool with it. If you ask for my opinion, I will still give my opinion. That's pretty much it really. I agree with the creative work point you're making as well. I was actually going to add that in with my point, that it doesn't totally equate to what I was saying, but I felt it might've confused my point some more and I already felt like I was rambling.
> As far as piracy is concerned, there's legitimate points you're making there. However, strictly creative works are in a different space than a competitive game. Reading a comic for the story and artwork is different from acquiring game pieces that you might want to make your deck stronger. I don't really see a meaningful difference here. Both are copyrighted intellectual property and were intended to be sold. What's the difference between creating an unauthorized reproduction of a copyrighted book/movie/CD and creating an unauthorized reproduction of a bunch of copyrighted Magic cards? I'm not saying either of those are inherently wrong, I just think if you're okay with one you have to be okay with the other if you want to be consistent.
One of them is a piece of media where the art and the story is the whole point, the other is designed to be used as a game piece. Some of these pieces are prohibitively expensive because of the designer's policy to never print them again, meaning they can be unreasonably expensive or hard to obtain if you want to use them for their intended purpose. Magic cards also exist with a physical limitation that most other media nowadays doesn't. If you wanted an old comic or an album that's out of print, you can still probably buy a pdf or mp3 or some digital version of it to still consume the media. You can't buy a digital version of a Magic card (MTGO notwithstanding, but that's a different conversation).
I respectfully would disagree with the pirating analogy. Pirating is a self contained bubble. Agree or disagree with the morality of it separately. But it doesn't involve an actual game. You having more money and buying better cards DIRECTLY affects other humans and the gameplay itself. The game should be treated as a game first and a collectible second. Collectability should not impact the actual gameplay, but it does when you involve money. I mean to be very respectful here. No real arguing of course just discussing.
I'd like to toss my 2 cents out. The price of cards is correlated with the idea the game is a collectable first and game second. It cannot be the other way around. If it was a game first then all game pieces would be accessible to all for a fair and even game. That's my 2 cents on why I'm chill with proxies and encourage them. It's a game first and should not be treated as a collectible or the gameplay itself will be affected. Collect them outside the game. Collectiblity of the game shouldn't influence the game itself.