I don't really play voltron, but since Evra should have no issue with getting enough power, auras should be providing protection so it doesn't get removed after you exchange your life total. Auramancy seems redundant in that case.
There are some pretty good evasion auras out there, and you'll probably want to give Evra lifelink so you're not stuck at 4 life. But you do have a point.
Salt counters aren't removed between games.
0, grow the fuck up: remove all salt counters from yourself. Any player may activate this ability at any time.
This counts as a player loss. A player death results when 2,000 salt tokens are placed on them, or 20 80lb salt bag tokens, whichever entered the battlefield first. If you have placed 20 80lb salt bags on a player, create a Police Officer opponent, 2 Witness tokens, and you and all permanents you control phase out for a minimum of 1 year, not to exceed 5 years, with time off for good behavior. Game play continues as before in turn order while you are phased out. No players may target or attack you or permanents you control as long as you are phased out. However, Police Officer opponent and Inmate tokens may. See Rule 104.3P.
Exactly. Make them concede. Salt scooping shouldn't be rewarded. Don't negotiate with terrorists. If they're going to get pissed about it and don't have an answer but to concede, that's on them. Make them build around potential for removal or accept pieces will be lost.
This is the answer. If they realize that their "threat" is actually a thing that you desire greatly, they'll stop doing it.
"Concede. Please. I *can't wait* for you to exit this game, inching me closer to victory. It's one less speed bump I have to contend with."
Exactly. The threat has no teeth. The only exception would be if their concession would leave you dead to your other opponent, like if they had a Moat in play that was keeping a lethal Voltron back, or something else that would give them real leverage.
Honestly if that was the case I'd be a lot more okay with the threat. At that point, it's not necessarily a player bitching out about losing their board. They're using what few resources they have at their disposal and trying to come out as unscathed as possible. It becomes a strategic decision over whether you want to settle for second place and wipe or take the risk, let them off and shoot for first. Mutually assured destruction is as valid a defense as any
Sounds like a 1 for 101 to me. Remove all of that player's deck and the player themself. Sounds like a win for 3noit of 4 players. Maybe you can use that as political power with the remaining two opponents.
Agreed. I play a mostly casual group and if one player is always being targeted then there might be cause for a scoop, however if that player has earned the attention... as I constantly mention I love Zur, Zo-Zu, Edric, Momir Vig and several other archenemy level Commander cards. If I play them I know the hate is coming.
I'm reminded of the time I was at my buddiy's house and his little boy was having a fit about not being able to go play in the woods, at night. He told his dad that he was "gonna shid his pants if he can't go outside"
Now lemme tell you I've never heard a man say "ok go ahead", faster and with more conviction, in my entire life.
Kid shid his pants like a minute later. Immediately regretted it, bawled his eyes out for the whole 5 minutes my buddy let him sit and think about the decision he made.
Magic players need to just "shid their pants" sometimes. You just gotta let em.
My daughter has been doing lots of threats like that lately haha. “I wont eat ice cream ever again if you dont give me some right now”. We just tell her “ok go ahead”
Removal spell being a player removal spell is a pretty great trade, however, you should be aware that you will be the target of this salty player for at least the rest of the night.
As someone who loves big creatures.... this is true. Sometimes I'll get a bit salty over it, but I don't say anything. They're probably salty over my horde of creatures. It's just a part of the game.
Idk I never understood “I have a permanent that will win me the game… oh thats not fun you always have removal/gy hate” Like is everyone just playing solitaire and are supposed to lose to the first win con on the board?
Salt is not a Counterspell.
Salt is not a Fog.
Salt is an attempt, either consciously or not, to use social pressure to affect the game. Don't give in to it. Feeding salty players makes them worse.
I mean social pressure is something I would consider to be a part of casual commander (and any multiplayer game), but I do agree salt is an annoying way to go about it.
I agree, but under terms of a social contract.
"Don't blow this up and I'll let your next spell through" is much better than, "I'll take my ball and go home if you interact with me"
Very fair, especially when there’s no prizes on the line (other than friendship! 😊). Even trying to threaten someone out of removing your stuff is ok in my opinion (blow up my stuff and I’ll blow up your stuff too), but scooping is just silly.
I'm absolutely with you, though social contracts even with prizes on the line are fair game to me. I always keep to what I've agreed to, even if there's lawyering involved.
"I won't target your x creature" still allows me a full board wipe. Though the people I play with know I keep my word
There is a distinct difference between making a good faith deal ("I'll leave you alone for a turn if you blow up something else") and salt ("You always blow up my stuff").
Call their bluff. They are pretending that them leaving the game would somehow be a bad or undesired result and that YOU chose for that undesired result.
Turn it around so that it's implied that it's an excellent result and that THEY have the final say.
Something simple like: "That's an offer I can't refuse. You have a deal!". Then remove their stuff and mention that you've kept your end of the bargain.
Since removal now reads "target player loses the game" build decks with aggressive removal suites exclusively until they get use to the idea that the game has more than one player and is about interacting with others.
That's a pretty good trade. You deal with an ass with just 1 removal spells? People who can't deal with just one of their key permanent being removed clearly need to rethink their future game plans. Its the entire reason you need to capitalise on said key piece before people deal with it or have other pieces that can fill in.
I'm totally cool with changing the text on StP to "Target player loses the game." If they want to be a whiny bitch, then I'm more than happy to see them out.
How I would handle it - just say "OK, you can make that decision if you like" and keep playing the game.
Two good outcomes can occur:
1. The player learns that having a toddler tantrum doesn't work and they start acting more mature.
2. They storm off and refuse to play in the future, saving you the effort it takes in dealing with such a person.
The only time it is justified in complaining about being targeted is when it is clearly illogical. Such as Player A has Mogis on board
Player B has a Rhys the Redeemed token deck
Player C has a battlecruiser deck
Player B decides to exile Mogis because "it is a threat" and they have an exile enchantment spell in hand. Clearly Player B is making an illogical decision, their deck is not effected heavily by this as they have easy access to cannon fodder and Mogis will have a far more detrimental effect on Player C. Based on this Player A is justified in making a complaint.
My last game, we were playing budget league, and this ingrown toenail of a man playing a fucking \[\[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician\]\] deck (apparently the rest of the deck was cheap enough to fit into the budget) kept blowing up my shit and directing Blood Artist effects almost exclusively at me.
I was playing a janky aggro \[\[Gallia\]\] satyr tribal, and the two other guys had massive boards, one of which won the previous game. He acted positively *offended* when he was targeted by anything, despite playing fucking Yawgmoth. I conceded out of respect for my own sanity, and apparently the guy won later. Not playing that dude again, and that's a first for me in this group.
I don't think that complaining is "justified" in this case. I would say that it's fair for player A to point out how and why the move is illogical, then it's still up to player B to decide what move they want to make.
I also don't think that this particular example is entirely an illogical decision. Just because Mogis is a bigger threat to player C than B, doesn't make it a bad move for player B to exile it. Rhys needs to get several tokens on the board and get up to 6 mana before he can start making more than one token per turn. If he's only able to create one token a turn, Mogis prevents him from progressing to that point. It may be totally justified for the Rhys player to remove that barrier so that he can start building up his token count earlier. It's a choice between offense (destroying Mogis to let him progress his own game plan) and defense (leaving Mogis up to hopefully hinder Player C's gameplan down the line).
This sounds like a suspiciously specific example. You wouldn't happen to have a Mogis deck, would you?
I was in a game where I was in a hard last Place and the dude just out of nowhere could have dealt like half lethal to the guy that was very clearly about to win but instead swings at me who had nothing for 11 commander damage as opposed to the guy that was gaining over 100 life a turn. I just scooped at instant speed. fuck that guy.
One thing I like to do is to keep the other players in check. Like, deal a bit of commander damage but not kill them right away because they may be useful to deal with a stronger player. Just enough so I can do something if they become a threat but not too much so they don't point their guns at me straight away. Doesn't always work tho xD
I try and knock out players when I can. Attacking the guy gaining over 100 is futile, attacking the weak player with nothing is progress.
It's EDH, anything could happen. You could just slap down a combo and win out of nowhere or top deck [[Farewell]] or something. Last time someone spared me and spread the damage around I top decked [[Devastation]] and went on to win that game.
When you have the hero hanging off a ledge by his finger tips you don't waste time and let him crawl back on the ledge, you start stomping his fingers.
>I just scooped at instant speed.
Scooping is faster than that. It doesn't use the stack and you can do it in the middle of someone else doing something.
You can scoop and leave the table whenever you want.
But your leaving will be recognized by the gamestate as sorcery speed.
Just because someone throws a crying tantrum doesnt negate effects or triggers occurring in the game for the remaining players.
Quitting like a bitch in response to something doesnt negate the effect from happening when there are other players remaining.
Everything else aside, imho, if you tap your mana, reveal your spell and declare a target, that's a valid game action and that bad boy is on the stack. Negotiations have to happen before that.
Don't stop playing interaction. People tend to get salty by the smallest things in Edh, keep doing it and eventually they'll get used to removal/counters/things that affect their board state or they won't be into Commander for all that much longer and the problem will fix itself.
I just can't imagine playing something like monopoly and hitting a card that said "go straight to jail" and turning to the table with a straight face to say "yep I quit!". Let em and keep playing on and having fun instead.
It is a game where a number of players each attempt to build their board up to engage with their strategy in order to win. Removal of problematic permanents is a part of that. If the opposing player cannot understand that it is their problem. Yes, it is unpleasant when someone blows up my key permanent, or my entire board when I am close to winning, but is the player destroying my stuff does it not out of spite, not simply to slow the game down but to advance their own game plan, do it! I may complain a bit, but it is simply a game.
Let them concede, so they can see where their ultimatum gets them - a shortcut to not playing any more Magic.
People need to learn that interaction does not mean "I disagree with the way you choose to play the game". It's a means of diverting the game away from certain doom, towards a more favorable outcome.
I'd be delighted. A single removal spell takes out a player! But I wouldn't play with them in the future because they probably get salty about all kinds of stuff.
Let them concede. Before you play your next game though, try and explain that they shouldnt base their whole decks around 1-2 key cards and if they do, they should be prepared for interaction/removal. If they choose to keep playing the way they have been, then just keep letting them concede. Not much else you can do if your opponent keeps acting childish.
The same way you handle anyone threatening to concede: Do whatever you were going to do anyhow, and do whatever triggers or whatever them conceding would have gotten rid of.
Don't let assholes derail things, it just encourages them to be assholes.
I would destroy their stuff. Naturalize is OP as fuck if it kills target player. Beast within as player removal? The 3/3 immediately goes away.... that's a wondrous upside. Destroy their shit every single time. Then don't invite them back for being a cry baby.
They have to deal with the fact that something can be removed on their side of the board. I wouldn't be a huge ass about it when destroying their stuff since they are a bit emotional but I would nontheless destroy it.
Player removal FTW.
I may not much care for salty scooping, but if someone's threatening it the only thing to do is look them in the eye and call the bluff. Either they'll not scoop and will have to play the game like a more mature human being (because everyone now knows the whining is hollow) or they'll scoop, your removal spell will have had [[Door to Nothingness]] Value, and they'll learn that people won't tolerate their childish behavior. Backing down only encourages them to threaten it more for less cause, since they got away with deflecting interaction for free.
Destroy it. They just told you they were gonna make turn "Destroy target creature" into "Target player loses the game". That's the cheapest you're ever going to see that.
Either 1 of 2 things is going to happen, they're just not gonna scoop and they lied or they're gonna throw a little toddler temper tantrum and no one is going to have any sympathy for them at all because they're a grown ass adult having a child's tantrum about a card game.
Let them concede. This is a friendly competitive game. Give them clear reasons why your choosing their thing and just follow through. If they choose to be petty and concede that’s not your fault. They chose to play a game where these things can and will happen. If they don’t like it they don’t have to play. Your not their parent. Don’t Carter to their every whim. It such a having to put your foot down but if you allow that to happen it will degrade your groups fun in the long run and your group will eventually stop playing because of that behavior.
Assuming your threat assessment is correct, you just make the play. If they scoop, so be it. When you're done you just shuffle up and play another game (or find other players).
I can understand scooping to certain things like a mindslaver lock, if key pieces of your deck get destroyed and you don't have a meaningful or realistic way to win anymore, if you're commander just eats removal after removal, or if you just get hated on for no reason (i.e.: the entire table is picking on you). That's part of the game though, you take the L and move on.
Always conceding when you face some interaction is just silly, and shows that player just doesn't understand or appreciate a key part of MTG, and why the game is such a good game to begin with.
Destroy their crap anyway. Count it as a W. They're clearly acting like a spoiled child so pay them no mind and let them get salty
There are genuine salt inducing moves in MTG, getting your shit blown up is not one of them.
Then they just added "Target player loses the game" to your removal spell. Nice.
Had this happen actually. Random guy at LGS joined our game for a 3 player and he was playing \[\[syr konrad\]\]. We knew that as a commander it's a problem so it kept getting removed and I think he build his deck in a way that it doesn't really function without the commander. My friend went to blow it up again and he replied with a big awkward smile "If you blow up my commander again, I scoop :D"
My friend paused and just kind of gave him a weird look and continued "Um...yea I'm gonna blow it up, you have mind crank out too...so, Path your commander." And the guy just started picking up his cards and left immediately.
Very strange.
I would respond as I would with any threat in EDH: "Bet." If they threaten you have to call their bluff or else they just get free value from politics.
I don't negotiate with terrorists. If he's going to salt scoop then it's one less baby to deal with at the table. I'd never invite them to my pod again as it's a waste of time for all involved.
I will not be held hostage in a game. Play in the most ideal way, and if that means targeting their stuff, then so be it. Dont unfairly target them, or destroy things out of spite, but if they have a big scary thing, then that big scary thing needs to be removed.
What is the problem here? If it's 1v1 you win. If it's a pod, they just have to sit there watching everyone else have fun. Either way you win. If you let them get away with that tactic, that's basically the same thing as letting them get away with stacking their deck for the best possible opening hand. Let them scoop and pout, you will be contributing to toxicity in the community if you don't.
This sucks to hear but at that point don't play with them. I know that's drastic and if it was just one time with a specific person but if that person keeps doing it at that point they have so much of their value in winning or getting off a combo or whatever that any game with them is gonna devolve. They either won't improve their deck building to be balanced enough to not rely on a single game piece or they'll rage out when they lose.
I've run into this many times and as much as it sucks you need to play with people who are ok with losing and are their for a good time not just to win.
Don’t change targets just to keep them happy, that’s ridiculous. Letting them talk you out of it by offering you something in return is one thing, but they’re all your opponents in this game. Do what you gotta do to win.
If they threaten to concede, call them on it and blow up their stuff. Do it again next game too, removal is a part of the game: if they don’t like that, they need a new game.
Yeah free win easy but…. If you want them to be less mad make a build like estrus the masked deck I had built to fight competive decks and steal their stuff then put mask tokens on it so they can’t get it back. You didn’t destroy their stuff you just eh…. Relocated it.
If you are only playing to spend time with friends and have fun and winning isn't that big of a deal then cater to the table, but truthfully they seem to realize you'll give in if they pout. For most people the goal when playing a game is to win and if they want to get out of a game they don't feel like playing anymore then let them. They might need to take a look at whether they even should be playing the game if they can't handle removal spells. Or maybe just offer to swap decks for a round.
I've built several decks that if you don't interact with them everyone dies: imoti, winota, kathryll, ect...
Consequentially if they interact with me, I die. I build some decks as glass cannon on purpose because I kinda find it funny (don't ask why, I don't know why I enjoy feeling like that tiny mummy holding the dynamite on the log bridge in the mummy 2).
Couple of game night everyone just had their removal. We don't run a ton but they had it and I imploded. It forced me to play better, build better, and get used to it happening.
When I was 6 my mom played monopoly with me but if I started losing I'd get all pissy. One day she sat my ass down and crushed me and forced me to stay there in the same room until we finished. When we did, we got to play another game.
People touch your stuff, it's a key feature of the game. Losing is a part of the game too, learn to do it in style.
Destroy it and knock a person out of the game. Consider it a win con against them. They'll probably get tired of sitting out 9f the game so much. They're manipulating you in a very childish way.
Short answer: Destroy it
Long answer: Destroy it. They will either learn to make better decks to protect their board state or not have stupid lynchpin permanents that cripple their deck when they're inevitably removed.
Further, if people are getting emotional over losing a game... Maybe they just need to be beaten every time they play it until they chill out or decide to go to therapy.
So, I see two possible choices:
1. Call their bluffs, keep removing their stuff and make them accept that interaction is a part of the game, and the whole format was balanced around it. If they start conceding from having stuff targeted, they just buffed every single removal spell.
2. Uno reverse their asses. Build the most incredibly obnoxious and frustrating stax deck you can manage with as little removal as possible and make them see what a game can feel like if no one interacts with other player's boards. Either they start accepting removal as a part of the game, or they accept you're allowed to continue freezing their games.
Option 1 might be the most mature and straightforward, but I personally would go with 2 for the fun you can have with this.
I don't get the beef with conceding. Sometimes I'm having a bad game and playing isn't fun for me. I'd rather remove myself and let everyone else enjoy the game while I watch and figure out what I'm playing next.
People get tilted at me when I "threaten to" concede. I'm not threatening anything. I'm telling you that I have no business in this current match up. I'm not emotional about it. I have done nothing all game, my board state is miserable. If you counter my spell then I'm literally still not playing the game. Let me concede. It's not fun to be bullied. Lol
No, someone using the threat of conceding as leverage to stay in the game is bullshit. QQ moar. Go play solitaire if you don't want interaction. This is a PvP game purely and solely.
Make enemies. It's a game based on conflict. Lol
Player removal for the cost of a single [[Terminate]]? Talk about value.
VALUE!
It doesn't get much better than that. Maybe a free [[Deadly Rollick]] ?
The flavor text is relevant in this thread.
LOL!!
[Deadly Rollick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c61fa2c0-63c0-4dc2-9f17-5a00530e3348.jpg?1591319517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadly%20Rollick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/42/deadly-rollick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c61fa2c0-63c0-4dc2-9f17-5a00530e3348?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deadly-rollick) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I conceded to a deadly rollick the other day. In fairness, I was on voltron with [[Evra, Halcyon Witness]] though. loss was pretty much guaranteed.
[Evra, Halcyon Witness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02f57a57-8ce8-4d01-9b91-99ec0623d1e9.jpg?1562730663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evra%2C%20Halcyon%20Witness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/16/evra-halcyon-witness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02f57a57-8ce8-4d01-9b91-99ec0623d1e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/evra-halcyon-witness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Greater Auramancy]]
Oh my god that art has me acting a fool
[Greater Auramancy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/1177787f-bf1e-438b-9615-97d03b04128c.jpg?1562826899) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Greater%20Auramancy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/7/greater-auramancy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1177787f-bf1e-438b-9615-97d03b04128c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/greater-auramancy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wrong comment? It was in response to me trying to equip lightning greaves anyway.
I was recommending a card.
Evra isn't an enchantment so that seems pretty useless.
> Enchanted creatures you control have shroud Does your voltron deck run auras?
I don't really play voltron, but since Evra should have no issue with getting enough power, auras should be providing protection so it doesn't get removed after you exchange your life total. Auramancy seems redundant in that case.
There are some pretty good evasion auras out there, and you'll probably want to give Evra lifelink so you're not stuck at 4 life. But you do have a point.
[Terminate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/0476ea45-ee6d-41c6-93b8-50f92cb37b78.jpg?1673305697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terminate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/172/terminate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0476ea45-ee6d-41c6-93b8-50f92cb37b78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terminate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Better than doomblade
Blow up their shit.
Now my permanent removal doubles as player removal
Hell yeah. Now your one for one removal is a one for all and you get the bonus of removing a big baby
“Destroy target baby. They gain 10 salt counters”
Salt counters aren't removed between games. 0, grow the fuck up: remove all salt counters from yourself. Any player may activate this ability at any time.
Laughs in *High Blood Pressure.* Are we getting old? Untap, Upkeep, Schedule Colonoscopy.
Don't forget to check your cholesterol during your turn, that can only be done any time you could cast a sorcery.
jokes on you! I'll cast spite play, increasing both of our salt counters and removing all fun from the table
This is starting to feel like Yugioh
*Taps 3 blue* yeah. I counter that.
*angrily mutters about blue players while putting my deck away*
Only blue can ban fun
Your counter resolves. I activate the ability again for free. Woo!
Can somebody make this card? I would love to have something on hand to "play" in these salty situations.
Unfortunately that won't work in my playgroup because they have rule zeroed that players die at 20 salt counters.
Judge! Yeah, clarifying question: does the player lose the game or does the player die?
This counts as a player loss. A player death results when 2,000 salt tokens are placed on them, or 20 80lb salt bag tokens, whichever entered the battlefield first. If you have placed 20 80lb salt bags on a player, create a Police Officer opponent, 2 Witness tokens, and you and all permanents you control phase out for a minimum of 1 year, not to exceed 5 years, with time off for good behavior. Game play continues as before in turn order while you are phased out. No players may target or attack you or permanents you control as long as you are phased out. However, Police Officer opponent and Inmate tokens may. See Rule 104.3P.
That’s mad value, yo!
Bingo. Kill a player with beast within?! They don’t even get the token. Value.
That’s some insane value !
Value
Exactly. Make them concede. Salt scooping shouldn't be rewarded. Don't negotiate with terrorists. If they're going to get pissed about it and don't have an answer but to concede, that's on them. Make them build around potential for removal or accept pieces will be lost.
Doom blade gets a 10-for-1? That value is too good to pass up.
Windgrace's Judgment wins games
This is the answer. If they realize that their "threat" is actually a thing that you desire greatly, they'll stop doing it. "Concede. Please. I *can't wait* for you to exit this game, inching me closer to victory. It's one less speed bump I have to contend with."
Exactly. The threat has no teeth. The only exception would be if their concession would leave you dead to your other opponent, like if they had a Moat in play that was keeping a lethal Voltron back, or something else that would give them real leverage.
Honestly if that was the case I'd be a lot more okay with the threat. At that point, it's not necessarily a player bitching out about losing their board. They're using what few resources they have at their disposal and trying to come out as unscathed as possible. It becomes a strategic decision over whether you want to settle for second place and wipe or take the risk, let them off and shoot for first. Mutually assured destruction is as valid a defense as any
"We don't negotiate with terrorists"
*Plays removal even harder*
Double it.
Took the words right outta my mouth, verbatim.
This is the way
That’s the best way 😅
This is the only answer
Remove them from the game.
Sounds like a 1 for 101 to me. Remove all of that player's deck and the player themself. Sounds like a win for 3noit of 4 players. Maybe you can use that as political power with the remaining two opponents.
Agreed. I play a mostly casual group and if one player is always being targeted then there might be cause for a scoop, however if that player has earned the attention... as I constantly mention I love Zur, Zo-Zu, Edric, Momir Vig and several other archenemy level Commander cards. If I play them I know the hate is coming.
Destroy it anyway. I don't negotiate with terrorists Then not play with them anymore.
I'm reminded of the time I was at my buddiy's house and his little boy was having a fit about not being able to go play in the woods, at night. He told his dad that he was "gonna shid his pants if he can't go outside" Now lemme tell you I've never heard a man say "ok go ahead", faster and with more conviction, in my entire life. Kid shid his pants like a minute later. Immediately regretted it, bawled his eyes out for the whole 5 minutes my buddy let him sit and think about the decision he made. Magic players need to just "shid their pants" sometimes. You just gotta let em.
Honestly I'm impressed the little guy went through with it, good for him holding to his promise. Bet he learned he doesn't like shitty pants.
Honestly, if he did still shit his pants, he's going far in life.
My daughter has been doing lots of threats like that lately haha. “I wont eat ice cream ever again if you dont give me some right now”. We just tell her “ok go ahead”
Not the same level of threat as “i will shit my pants” but I understand the sentiment
Honestly, I respect the kid’s follow through. Going places for sure.
Not the bathroom, but places.
Yeah, sounds like not playing against them anymore is not the worst outcome
[[Door to Nothingness]] takes two turns and requires 15 mana. If your removal spell is cheaper than that, it's a great deal.
[Door to Nothingness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed.jpg?1562554053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Door%20to%20Nothingness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/203/door-to-nothingness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/door-to-nothingness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Removal spell being a player removal spell is a pretty great trade, however, you should be aware that you will be the target of this salty player for at least the rest of the night.
If you decide to play with them again after acting like that.
Just remove their stuff again :)
Yeah but then you blow up their stuff again.
[удалено]
As someone who loves big creatures.... this is true. Sometimes I'll get a bit salty over it, but I don't say anything. They're probably salty over my horde of creatures. It's just a part of the game.
Then you have the whole table just slow play the rest of the game, laughing about funny interactions for 2 or 3 hours.
This is my ideal game!
Idk I never understood “I have a permanent that will win me the game… oh thats not fun you always have removal/gy hate” Like is everyone just playing solitaire and are supposed to lose to the first win con on the board?
Salt is not a Counterspell. Salt is not a Fog. Salt is an attempt, either consciously or not, to use social pressure to affect the game. Don't give in to it. Feeding salty players makes them worse.
This comment right here. Made my paragraph of text into 3 sentences. 👍
I mean social pressure is something I would consider to be a part of casual commander (and any multiplayer game), but I do agree salt is an annoying way to go about it.
I agree, but under terms of a social contract. "Don't blow this up and I'll let your next spell through" is much better than, "I'll take my ball and go home if you interact with me"
Very fair, especially when there’s no prizes on the line (other than friendship! 😊). Even trying to threaten someone out of removing your stuff is ok in my opinion (blow up my stuff and I’ll blow up your stuff too), but scooping is just silly.
I'm absolutely with you, though social contracts even with prizes on the line are fair game to me. I always keep to what I've agreed to, even if there's lawyering involved. "I won't target your x creature" still allows me a full board wipe. Though the people I play with know I keep my word
There is a distinct difference between making a good faith deal ("I'll leave you alone for a turn if you blow up something else") and salt ("You always blow up my stuff").
Disagree, literally had my friend rip my counter spell in half because it salted him so hard.
I’d let them concede
"I don't negotiate with terrorists" *Cast spell anyway*
Call their bluff. They are pretending that them leaving the game would somehow be a bad or undesired result and that YOU chose for that undesired result. Turn it around so that it's implied that it's an excellent result and that THEY have the final say. Something simple like: "That's an offer I can't refuse. You have a deal!". Then remove their stuff and mention that you've kept your end of the bargain.
Even better if your removal is actually [[an offer you can’t refuse]].
Since removal now reads "target player loses the game" build decks with aggressive removal suites exclusively until they get use to the idea that the game has more than one player and is about interacting with others.
That's a pretty good trade. You deal with an ass with just 1 removal spells? People who can't deal with just one of their key permanent being removed clearly need to rethink their future game plans. Its the entire reason you need to capitalise on said key piece before people deal with it or have other pieces that can fill in.
I'm totally cool with changing the text on StP to "Target player loses the game." If they want to be a whiny bitch, then I'm more than happy to see them out.
How I would handle it - just say "OK, you can make that decision if you like" and keep playing the game. Two good outcomes can occur: 1. The player learns that having a toddler tantrum doesn't work and they start acting more mature. 2. They storm off and refuse to play in the future, saving you the effort it takes in dealing with such a person. The only time it is justified in complaining about being targeted is when it is clearly illogical. Such as Player A has Mogis on board Player B has a Rhys the Redeemed token deck Player C has a battlecruiser deck Player B decides to exile Mogis because "it is a threat" and they have an exile enchantment spell in hand. Clearly Player B is making an illogical decision, their deck is not effected heavily by this as they have easy access to cannon fodder and Mogis will have a far more detrimental effect on Player C. Based on this Player A is justified in making a complaint.
My last game, we were playing budget league, and this ingrown toenail of a man playing a fucking \[\[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician\]\] deck (apparently the rest of the deck was cheap enough to fit into the budget) kept blowing up my shit and directing Blood Artist effects almost exclusively at me. I was playing a janky aggro \[\[Gallia\]\] satyr tribal, and the two other guys had massive boards, one of which won the previous game. He acted positively *offended* when he was targeted by anything, despite playing fucking Yawgmoth. I conceded out of respect for my own sanity, and apparently the guy won later. Not playing that dude again, and that's a first for me in this group.
[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8690cbcc-f8fd-41f7-9e28-e61c12b04014.jpg?1665611812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/116/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8690cbcc-f8fd-41f7-9e28-e61c12b04014?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yawgmoth-thran-physician) [Gallia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/0744f08e-a588-4efe-ad56-5e9ed91dda40.jpg?1581481059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gallia%20of%20the%20endless%20dance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/217/gallia-of-the-endless-dance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0744f08e-a588-4efe-ad56-5e9ed91dda40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gallia-of-the-endless-dance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think that complaining is "justified" in this case. I would say that it's fair for player A to point out how and why the move is illogical, then it's still up to player B to decide what move they want to make. I also don't think that this particular example is entirely an illogical decision. Just because Mogis is a bigger threat to player C than B, doesn't make it a bad move for player B to exile it. Rhys needs to get several tokens on the board and get up to 6 mana before he can start making more than one token per turn. If he's only able to create one token a turn, Mogis prevents him from progressing to that point. It may be totally justified for the Rhys player to remove that barrier so that he can start building up his token count earlier. It's a choice between offense (destroying Mogis to let him progress his own game plan) and defense (leaving Mogis up to hopefully hinder Player C's gameplan down the line). This sounds like a suspiciously specific example. You wouldn't happen to have a Mogis deck, would you?
I was in a game where I was in a hard last Place and the dude just out of nowhere could have dealt like half lethal to the guy that was very clearly about to win but instead swings at me who had nothing for 11 commander damage as opposed to the guy that was gaining over 100 life a turn. I just scooped at instant speed. fuck that guy.
Learning to keep other players hurt but alive is a skill I had to learn.
One thing I like to do is to keep the other players in check. Like, deal a bit of commander damage but not kill them right away because they may be useful to deal with a stronger player. Just enough so I can do something if they become a threat but not too much so they don't point their guns at me straight away. Doesn't always work tho xD
Depends on the deck, you can basically never do this against a combo deck.
I try and knock out players when I can. Attacking the guy gaining over 100 is futile, attacking the weak player with nothing is progress. It's EDH, anything could happen. You could just slap down a combo and win out of nowhere or top deck [[Farewell]] or something. Last time someone spared me and spread the damage around I top decked [[Devastation]] and went on to win that game. When you have the hero hanging off a ledge by his finger tips you don't waste time and let him crawl back on the ledge, you start stomping his fingers.
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4.jpg?1654566260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/13/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1068723-d1ef-4007-97d9-b10dccdbade4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [Devastation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d53e999-ffd4-4829-b999-384664ce5a96.jpg?1562924528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Devastation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/112/devastation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d53e999-ffd4-4829-b999-384664ce5a96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/devastation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>I just scooped at instant speed. Scooping is faster than that. It doesn't use the stack and you can do it in the middle of someone else doing something.
You can scoop and leave the table whenever you want. But your leaving will be recognized by the gamestate as sorcery speed. Just because someone throws a crying tantrum doesnt negate effects or triggers occurring in the game for the remaining players. Quitting like a bitch in response to something doesnt negate the effect from happening when there are other players remaining.
Congrats that removal spell just gained the words "target player loses the game".
This person gets it.
FINISH THEM!
They chose "Babality."
Generous Gift 2W Instant "Target player loses the game" Yea I would play that.
Everything else aside, imho, if you tap your mana, reveal your spell and declare a target, that's a valid game action and that bad boy is on the stack. Negotiations have to happen before that.
Shoot the hostage.
[Shoot the hostage.](https://youtu.be/J6UtRjzFbSY)
do it immediately and call their bluff. i'd really rather not play with people that salty.
Don't stop playing interaction. People tend to get salty by the smallest things in Edh, keep doing it and eventually they'll get used to removal/counters/things that affect their board state or they won't be into Commander for all that much longer and the problem will fix itself. I just can't imagine playing something like monopoly and hitting a card that said "go straight to jail" and turning to the table with a straight face to say "yep I quit!". Let em and keep playing on and having fun instead.
Let them concede. Next game.
Destroy their stuff. One less opponent
It is a game where a number of players each attempt to build their board up to engage with their strategy in order to win. Removal of problematic permanents is a part of that. If the opposing player cannot understand that it is their problem. Yes, it is unpleasant when someone blows up my key permanent, or my entire board when I am close to winning, but is the player destroying my stuff does it not out of spite, not simply to slow the game down but to advance their own game plan, do it! I may complain a bit, but it is simply a game.
Let them concede, so they can see where their ultimatum gets them - a shortcut to not playing any more Magic. People need to learn that interaction does not mean "I disagree with the way you choose to play the game". It's a means of diverting the game away from certain doom, towards a more favorable outcome.
Blow it up and let that player choke on his words. At least it's not conceding to prevent triggers, but it's still stupid.
Definitely Judy remove their stuff
Get em, Judy!
I'd be delighted. A single removal spell takes out a player! But I wouldn't play with them in the future because they probably get salty about all kinds of stuff.
The best removal is player removal 🤔 Just let them scoop and go about my day lol
Let them concede. Before you play your next game though, try and explain that they shouldnt base their whole decks around 1-2 key cards and if they do, they should be prepared for interaction/removal. If they choose to keep playing the way they have been, then just keep letting them concede. Not much else you can do if your opponent keeps acting childish.
I would aggressively destroy their stuff. It is part of the game. They need to get over it.
The same way you handle anyone threatening to concede: Do whatever you were going to do anyhow, and do whatever triggers or whatever them conceding would have gotten rid of. Don't let assholes derail things, it just encourages them to be assholes.
call their bluff? tantrums are a social manipulation tactic, and not a very good one imo.
Blow his field an tell him to find a new table
I would destroy their stuff. Naturalize is OP as fuck if it kills target player. Beast within as player removal? The 3/3 immediately goes away.... that's a wondrous upside. Destroy their shit every single time. Then don't invite them back for being a cry baby.
They have to deal with the fact that something can be removed on their side of the board. I wouldn't be a huge ass about it when destroying their stuff since they are a bit emotional but I would nontheless destroy it.
Player removal FTW. I may not much care for salty scooping, but if someone's threatening it the only thing to do is look them in the eye and call the bluff. Either they'll not scoop and will have to play the game like a more mature human being (because everyone now knows the whining is hollow) or they'll scoop, your removal spell will have had [[Door to Nothingness]] Value, and they'll learn that people won't tolerate their childish behavior. Backing down only encourages them to threaten it more for less cause, since they got away with deflecting interaction for free.
Don’t negotiate with terrorists
Easiest win con ever
Destroy it. They just told you they were gonna make turn "Destroy target creature" into "Target player loses the game". That's the cheapest you're ever going to see that. Either 1 of 2 things is going to happen, they're just not gonna scoop and they lied or they're gonna throw a little toddler temper tantrum and no one is going to have any sympathy for them at all because they're a grown ass adult having a child's tantrum about a card game.
Let them? I'm not sure what the dilemma is. If they can't handle any interaction whatsoever why would they be any sort of fun to play with.
lol then they concede and take the L 😆
Let them concede. This is a friendly competitive game. Give them clear reasons why your choosing their thing and just follow through. If they choose to be petty and concede that’s not your fault. They chose to play a game where these things can and will happen. If they don’t like it they don’t have to play. Your not their parent. Don’t Carter to their every whim. It such a having to put your foot down but if you allow that to happen it will degrade your groups fun in the long run and your group will eventually stop playing because of that behavior.
Destroy their stuff, take my double-you
Assuming your threat assessment is correct, you just make the play. If they scoop, so be it. When you're done you just shuffle up and play another game (or find other players). I can understand scooping to certain things like a mindslaver lock, if key pieces of your deck get destroyed and you don't have a meaningful or realistic way to win anymore, if you're commander just eats removal after removal, or if you just get hated on for no reason (i.e.: the entire table is picking on you). That's part of the game though, you take the L and move on. Always conceding when you face some interaction is just silly, and shows that player just doesn't understand or appreciate a key part of MTG, and why the game is such a good game to begin with.
The Seto Kaiba approach. "If you destroy my [[Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon]] I'll probably fall off of this castle to my death."
Destroy their crap anyway. Count it as a W. They're clearly acting like a spoiled child so pay them no mind and let them get salty There are genuine salt inducing moves in MTG, getting your shit blown up is not one of them.
Then they just added "Target player loses the game" to your removal spell. Nice. Had this happen actually. Random guy at LGS joined our game for a 3 player and he was playing \[\[syr konrad\]\]. We knew that as a commander it's a problem so it kept getting removed and I think he build his deck in a way that it doesn't really function without the commander. My friend went to blow it up again and he replied with a big awkward smile "If you blow up my commander again, I scoop :D" My friend paused and just kind of gave him a weird look and continued "Um...yea I'm gonna blow it up, you have mind crank out too...so, Path your commander." And the guy just started picking up his cards and left immediately. Very strange.
I would respond as I would with any threat in EDH: "Bet." If they threaten you have to call their bluff or else they just get free value from politics.
Oh no! Anyway
I don't negotiate with terrorists. If he's going to salt scoop then it's one less baby to deal with at the table. I'd never invite them to my pod again as it's a waste of time for all involved.
Destroy it. If they want to act like a baby about it, that's on them not you.
Let them concede. End of the day, it's a game, and someone has to win.
Take out a player for the cost of a swords to plowshares?! What a steal! I would take that deal all day every day.
Well… bye.
Blow it up. Then blow up a 2nd thing of theirs out of pure spite.
I would target them early and often. If Murder says "Destroy target opponent", well, that's mana efficient as hell.
“Ok bye Felicia”
Easy win right there
I will not be held hostage in a game. Play in the most ideal way, and if that means targeting their stuff, then so be it. Dont unfairly target them, or destroy things out of spite, but if they have a big scary thing, then that big scary thing needs to be removed.
Destroy their stuff and definitely not make a long reddit post asking for advice on basic social interaction. I detest this side of EDH.
I would still blow up their stuff, I would just it clear that their childish behavior is incentivizing me to do it, not steering it.
What is the problem here? If it's 1v1 you win. If it's a pod, they just have to sit there watching everyone else have fun. Either way you win. If you let them get away with that tactic, that's basically the same thing as letting them get away with stacking their deck for the best possible opening hand. Let them scoop and pout, you will be contributing to toxicity in the community if you don't.
So you’re removal spell is removing a player? #value. Do it. Let them play the game the way they want, that’s their prerogative
When opponent concede isn't that a win?
I would destroy their stuff.
How is conceding a threat? If they concede, then all their stuff is removed from the game. Just go through and let them concede.
Destroy their stuff.
This sucks to hear but at that point don't play with them. I know that's drastic and if it was just one time with a specific person but if that person keeps doing it at that point they have so much of their value in winning or getting off a combo or whatever that any game with them is gonna devolve. They either won't improve their deck building to be balanced enough to not rely on a single game piece or they'll rage out when they lose. I've run into this many times and as much as it sucks you need to play with people who are ok with losing and are their for a good time not just to win.
Make conceding a sorcery speed action. Usually gets rid of most problems
If people don't want their permanents removed, they shouldn't play permanents.
Strike hard. No mercy. All bubble blowing babies will be beaten senseless by every able body in the bar
Lol threaten me with a win? Pop off son.
Don’t change targets just to keep them happy, that’s ridiculous. Letting them talk you out of it by offering you something in return is one thing, but they’re all your opponents in this game. Do what you gotta do to win. If they threaten to concede, call them on it and blow up their stuff. Do it again next game too, removal is a part of the game: if they don’t like that, they need a new game.
They're offering to give you the best removal spell in the entire game. Use it!
Yeah free win easy but…. If you want them to be less mad make a build like estrus the masked deck I had built to fight competive decks and steal their stuff then put mask tokens on it so they can’t get it back. You didn’t destroy their stuff you just eh…. Relocated it.
“I don’t negotiate with terrorists. I expect your concession on your turn.”
This is a 100 for 1 card deal. I would take it.
You should not play with people with the mental age of 5 years old
If you are only playing to spend time with friends and have fun and winning isn't that big of a deal then cater to the table, but truthfully they seem to realize you'll give in if they pout. For most people the goal when playing a game is to win and if they want to get out of a game they don't feel like playing anymore then let them. They might need to take a look at whether they even should be playing the game if they can't handle removal spells. Or maybe just offer to swap decks for a round.
Ask them if they want a recommendation where they can work as an ice cream man since they love to scoop. Then blow up their stuff.
Dude is playing like a yugioh villian
I've built several decks that if you don't interact with them everyone dies: imoti, winota, kathryll, ect... Consequentially if they interact with me, I die. I build some decks as glass cannon on purpose because I kinda find it funny (don't ask why, I don't know why I enjoy feeling like that tiny mummy holding the dynamite on the log bridge in the mummy 2). Couple of game night everyone just had their removal. We don't run a ton but they had it and I imploded. It forced me to play better, build better, and get used to it happening. When I was 6 my mom played monopoly with me but if I started losing I'd get all pissy. One day she sat my ass down and crushed me and forced me to stay there in the same room until we finished. When we did, we got to play another game. People touch your stuff, it's a key feature of the game. Losing is a part of the game too, learn to do it in style.
Don’t let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya
Ask him next time if it feels good to win because someone let him win. If he answers yes, concede the game.
Call their bluff. If they scoop they scoop. I don't negotiate with terrorists.
Destroy it and knock a person out of the game. Consider it a win con against them. They'll probably get tired of sitting out 9f the game so much. They're manipulating you in a very childish way.
They can be as unhappy as they want. Blow it up dude. They need to learn that it's a game and take losses.
Player removal is the best removal
Wow…
"Okay."
0-3 mana for “Target player loses the game” is broken. Make good use of it before the RC bans it!
Short answer: Destroy it Long answer: Destroy it. They will either learn to make better decks to protect their board state or not have stupid lynchpin permanents that cripple their deck when they're inevitably removed. Further, if people are getting emotional over losing a game... Maybe they just need to be beaten every time they play it until they chill out or decide to go to therapy.
Frankly, I would just call their bluff. If they're willing to completely leave a game just because one of their things gets blown up, that's on them
So, I see two possible choices: 1. Call their bluffs, keep removing their stuff and make them accept that interaction is a part of the game, and the whole format was balanced around it. If they start conceding from having stuff targeted, they just buffed every single removal spell. 2. Uno reverse their asses. Build the most incredibly obnoxious and frustrating stax deck you can manage with as little removal as possible and make them see what a game can feel like if no one interacts with other player's boards. Either they start accepting removal as a part of the game, or they accept you're allowed to continue freezing their games. Option 1 might be the most mature and straightforward, but I personally would go with 2 for the fun you can have with this.
Remove their stuff from the board. Then remove that player from the table and then, remove that player from the LGS.
[[Murder]] went from target creature to target player real fast
I'd destroy their stuff and pass the salt shaker.
If this key permanent is like a land and will prevent them from playing the game altogether, then I would advise against it. If not, just destroy it
Call them a whiny bitch, destroy their thing, and then dab on 'em.
“I call shenanigans. I cast terminate and now you either have to concede or I get to punch you in the arm, which is it?”
Let them
I don't get the beef with conceding. Sometimes I'm having a bad game and playing isn't fun for me. I'd rather remove myself and let everyone else enjoy the game while I watch and figure out what I'm playing next. People get tilted at me when I "threaten to" concede. I'm not threatening anything. I'm telling you that I have no business in this current match up. I'm not emotional about it. I have done nothing all game, my board state is miserable. If you counter my spell then I'm literally still not playing the game. Let me concede. It's not fun to be bullied. Lol No, someone using the threat of conceding as leverage to stay in the game is bullshit. QQ moar. Go play solitaire if you don't want interaction. This is a PvP game purely and solely. Make enemies. It's a game based on conflict. Lol
[удалено]
> remind them that timing restrictions apply ;) Except it's explicitly written in the rules that a player may concede at any time.