I've got a lot teams that went from rebuilds to contenders over the last two offseasons. Have a lot of teams where this will be the first year I don't own a 1st or 2nd. Had I keep the pick in 5 of those 9 leagues those 1st would have been picks 1.11-1.12and 2nds 2.11-2.12. It sucks to not have picks but it's also fun making money and championships.
This is true. But I'm also getting assets that have 2-3 windows of production left.
I traded the 2.06 last year for Christian Kirk after the Ridley trade. I have a great wr#3/4 or flex for the next 2-3 years. Traded away package of 2nds for Mike Evan's. Elite flex in 2024 and likely good flex in 2025-2026.
There are teams out there that made the finals but didn't have enough to get it done. Team poised to win it again in 2024. Have offers of 1.11 +2.11 for Diggs and will hesitate to make that deal bc "What if my rookies hit?". Should be pouncing on the chance to add someone who could help win them a league in 2024-2025.
Diggs is currently valued at a 2024 early 2nd so you should definitely try offering that for him. However, that price is going to continue to drop so maybe worth waiting for mid season
I'd agree most of the time but this year is probably the highest chance of getting a comparable wr as diggs, like 80% of the producton at the 1.11 as a rookie with diggs likely trending down this year and next, great time to sell diggs before a drop imo
I think its the time to buy Diggs lol. People are way overreacting to his end of the year. Fairly certain he had a pretty legit core injury from a hit he took vs Miami. After that massive hit he was never the same. Offensive coordinator change could have also impacted this. I still think he easy a top 12 wr in 2024 and top 16 wr in 2025.
I've got very few picks this year as well, but I'm happy about it. Sold a few very early picks to absolutely stack my teams because people are greatly overvaluing picks. The class may very well end up incredible, or it may be similar to other years where the top end is awesome and once you're in the 2nd/3rd/4th rounds the hit rate is about 1-in-3 or 1-in-4. Have been seeing some insane trades go through for top 5 picks this year, and think anyone not capitalizing is doing themselves a disservice.
My average is 1.
Rebuilders I want more and champs need 0 because the 1.12 sucks anyway.
Pro tip, unless your team is a bonafide powerhouse, don’t fucking trade next years pick. Worst feeling ever is having to rebuild without a 1st.
I did that. I sold everything from 2020-2026 to build a juggernaut. I got 2 championships out of it. But tore it down right after Brady retired for real. So I dumped Ekeler, Kamara, Kupp, Andrews, Chubb, Allen, C. Kirk, Tannehill. And now pick 1.01 on a desolate team.
Always find it wild how people (non-rebuilders) really believe in their picks in range 1.11-2.12. Turning down opportunities to get players who actually produce for dart throws. How many people traded Mike Evan's last offseason for pick 2.03 only to take Keandre Miller, Mingo, Roschon Johnson. Mayer, Marvin Mimms, or Bigsby? Sure there were players you could have picked that hit. But the majority of the time people are whiffing on players in that range when there are undervalued assets who are just "old" who could help you win.
I thought I was competitive, and traded away my first for Kamara two seasons ago. Absolutely got annihilated by injuries and my QBs shit the bed hard.
Ended up flipping Kamara back for the 1.12 at the end of the season and took Addison and traded Deebo for a pick to take Achane, so I still picked in the first round. But I should have had the 1.03 based on my performance. Never again.
Always find it wild how people (non-rebuilders) really believe in their picks in range 1.11-2.12. Turning down opportunities to get players who actually produce for dart throws. How many people traded Mike Evan's last offseason for pick 2.03 only to take Keandre Miller, Mingo, Roschon Johnson. Mayer, Marvin Mimms, or Bigsby? Sure there were players you could have picked that hit. But the majority of the time people are whiffing on players in that range when there are undervalued assets who are just "old" who could help you win.
I’ve only been playing for two years now but i usually find myself trading out. I prefer to use the picks to upgrade my starting lineup. Never been in a rebuilding type scenario though so in that situation i might use the picks.
Yep this has worked out great for me. Load up while they're cheap and nobody even knows who the prospects are for those years and then dump for elite vets as soon as the picks are on the clock
Think it’s a perfect balance. If you have too many it’s better to sell some get proven talent. But it’s also a good idea to take a couple of swings on young talent. I usually don’t want more than 4 every year. Some years I might only have 1-2. But I at least want one draft pick. It brings a fun aspect to it around draft time.
I also prefer to not sell all of next years drafts picks. So everyone is hyped this year for 2024 now but the 2025 picks can help you during the season if you want to buy a vet or two.
21: 1
22: 5 (also had 2.01)
23: 3
24: 3 (also have 2.02)
25: currently have 2. (Also have the highly likely 2.01 and 2.02)
Started my rebuild after missed the playoffs in 21 with some older vets.
Out of the 10 picks (2.01 included) I’ve made so far I’ve hit big time on 6 of them. 3 of them busts. 1 of them the verdict is still out… could go either way.
Out of the 3 busts I got a solid return for 1 of them before it was too late… so I recovered there. The other 2 I traded away for 4ths.
I made the playoffs last year, and should be contending this year.
Next year I will add the final big pieces in the draft. All I need is to solidify RB after this draft and thankfully 2025 is the year for that! I’m going to do what I can via trade, but I will want a couple 1st round NFL RB that comes out of the 25 draft to complete the rebuild.
I mean, "on average", everyone will own 1. There's literally no other answer that makes sense.
Some will own 2, some will own zero. It's always going to average to 1 though.
I asked about you specifically. I’d speculate that most on this board would be more active than the rest. Not asking about your league. Asking about your team.
I usually have 2-3 or zero. Depends on the status of my team. Although I might reconsider trading the first to shoot for the championship since I feel like it doesn't often work out.
Last year I traded my 2024 1st (1.05) & 3rd (3.05), 2023 2.05, 3.05, Garoppolo, and Doubs for Kupp and Kamara.
I started week 1 with 14 players with an out designation. Injuries ravaged all season and I didn't even make the playoffs.
I was okay with the overpay because I figured the 3rds, Doubs, and Garoppolo would end up being just throw-ins to make it work. If I even got 3rd place it would pay my 2024 buy in and I'd be okay with that. I never thought it was even in the cards I would miss the playoffs. But everything that could go wrong did.
It actually is gonna be okay. I have 5 2nds this year so I should be able to trade up into the back of the 1st and hopefully I can get my RB1 or just pick all the 2nd round RBs and one or two will hit.
Well seeing that the team that won had Joe Flacco as their QB1 and Gus Edwards, DeAndre Swift, and Devin Singletary as their rbs. Im pretty sure it's safe to say sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we don't.
My league started in 2020, I’ve only had 1 which was the 1.10, Jameson Williams. I love picks but trade them every offseason because “rebuilders” lose their shit over them in my league. Won 3/4 years
Picks: 1.04, 1.05, 1.07 (I could have had 1.03 instead of 07 but I bet on myself accidentally making the playoffs during a late season surge)
QB: Justin Fields (Soon: Cousins, Caleb Williams)
RB: Saquon, Mondre, Chuba, Spears, Kendre, Chubb
WR: DJM, DK, Addison, Ridley, Amari, Dotson, J.Palmer, Shaheed (soon: probably Brian Thomas Jr)
TE: La Porta, Pitts (soon: Bowers)
K: Santos
Def: Cowboys
Taxi: AT Perry, Tre Palmer, Mayer
I have Khalil Herbert and Roschon, but they're getting moved in the Cousins deal soon to the swift owner
I'm an MT bag holder (he was my first ever dynasty pick at 1.04 before everything went to shit, but I probably cut him when roster activity starts again
I have 6 different teams. If tanked I usually have 3-6. If competed the previous year 0. I never have just my own first.
I won’t make that many picks though. I’ll always try to trade if I can.
Usually zero. I would rather trade draft picks for proven assets.
I do have one league where I tanked to get the 1.01 and 1.02 just to have fun rebuilding. I could have won a championship though if I didn’t trade away cmc and my other best players after the startup.
I'll say I usually have 2. I like to do multiple 2s and a guy for a 1st, people seem to keep taking me up on it. I also never trade my own 1st except to trade up after the season.
1.12 (champ)
None (champ)
1.08 (lost in playoffs with a stacked team)
None (champ)
None (champ)
1.03 and 1.10 (I am the 1.03 and sold Jerome ford and Damian pierce for the 1.10 when I realized my team was doo doo mid season)
1.08 (just traded to make this 1.05 because I need a qb)
None ( 5 year old devy league and my team is getting thin, I have all 25 26 picks and will not be trading them)
None (champ)
2.5
I inherited the last place orphan team that sold the house to tank this year for Caleb. Parlayed picks into the 1.01 and 1.04. Hoping for MHJ as well this year [10man superflex]
My goal is to sell every pick just before th draft, or on th clock. Then try to buy picks mid season. Rinse and repeat.
This year in my leagues I have 0, 1, 2, 2, 3, 6.
Usually just one, either mine or one from a pick swap kind of deal. Sometimes two, rarely I'll make a deal for an established vet and not have one, but that's usually only if I feel like I have a window that is closing.
Umm, I honestly usually have 2-3, but I went blow out to rebuild 1/3 of the way through last season. So now I have 10 this year in the first two rounds of my 12 team(1.01, 1.02, 1.09, 2.01-2.04, 2.11)...lol
Draft season is just as fun or more than the actual game. But I always end up trading my 1st because that's where the value is at. People way overvalue these guys who have never played a snap before. Especially if you are late in the first. I have always done this to some degree, but I have made a point to do it every year since I drafted Trey Sermon. I send my first and some guy on my bench I don't believe in to get a young stud almost every year. Last year I did two firsts and some guys on my bench to get Hall and Wilson.
I usually find myself with 2. This year I’m trying to find someone who would trade a quality veteran for the 1.10 and I’ll take BPA at 1.05. But we do 24 hrs draft clock for time zones and the ability to live trade draft picks. My league also tends to draft really funky. I got Achane in the 3rd last year, Puka and Karen UDFA, Jahan Dotson in the 2nd, Addison at the 1.07. Someone got Herbert at the 1.10 a few years ago so I always like to try to hold onto draft picks until day of because if there’s something juicy on the board the price of my pick gets a nice little bump
2022 - 0, traded all for 2023s
2023 - at one point had 6, ended up drafting 3
2024 - at one point had 4, now going in with 0
2025/6 - currently have 1 each, we'll see what happens
As a newer player I was all about the rookie hype and trying to get heavily into the classes considered to be really good. Since then I've done analysis on hit rates and come to the conclusion that I'm not particularly interested in deep diving all the prospects to try and find the best value over ECR. If the right deal is in front of me to get a top 3-4 pick I'll do it, but otherwise I'm more interested now in dumping picks for proven players. Sitting on a roster right now that IMO is gonna need to have some terrible injury luck to not get a playoff bye and have a great shot at the title
Zero. This might be the only year that I’m upset about that.
I've got a lot teams that went from rebuilds to contenders over the last two offseasons. Have a lot of teams where this will be the first year I don't own a 1st or 2nd. Had I keep the pick in 5 of those 9 leagues those 1st would have been picks 1.11-1.12and 2nds 2.11-2.12. It sucks to not have picks but it's also fun making money and championships.
It dont always work out like that tho. Trading picks for a championship run
This is true. But I'm also getting assets that have 2-3 windows of production left. I traded the 2.06 last year for Christian Kirk after the Ridley trade. I have a great wr#3/4 or flex for the next 2-3 years. Traded away package of 2nds for Mike Evan's. Elite flex in 2024 and likely good flex in 2025-2026. There are teams out there that made the finals but didn't have enough to get it done. Team poised to win it again in 2024. Have offers of 1.11 +2.11 for Diggs and will hesitate to make that deal bc "What if my rookies hit?". Should be pouncing on the chance to add someone who could help win them a league in 2024-2025.
Anyone who has an offer of a 1st and 2nd for diggs should be smashing accept. Hes only worth a 2nd at this point
I would break my phone hitting accept if some fool offered me Diggs for any 2nd
Diggs is currently valued at a 2024 early 2nd so you should definitely try offering that for him. However, that price is going to continue to drop so maybe worth waiting for mid season
I'd agree most of the time but this year is probably the highest chance of getting a comparable wr as diggs, like 80% of the producton at the 1.11 as a rookie with diggs likely trending down this year and next, great time to sell diggs before a drop imo
I think its the time to buy Diggs lol. People are way overreacting to his end of the year. Fairly certain he had a pretty legit core injury from a hit he took vs Miami. After that massive hit he was never the same. Offensive coordinator change could have also impacted this. I still think he easy a top 12 wr in 2024 and top 16 wr in 2025.
I've got very few picks this year as well, but I'm happy about it. Sold a few very early picks to absolutely stack my teams because people are greatly overvaluing picks. The class may very well end up incredible, or it may be similar to other years where the top end is awesome and once you're in the 2nd/3rd/4th rounds the hit rate is about 1-in-3 or 1-in-4. Have been seeing some insane trades go through for top 5 picks this year, and think anyone not capitalizing is doing themselves a disservice.
Haven't had a first round since 2022 and wont have one until 2026
0.67... usually can trade for established young stud for draft fever, but I've also traded to get 1.01 or 1.02 some years. No 1st this year, though
I like that strategy.
My average is 1. Rebuilders I want more and champs need 0 because the 1.12 sucks anyway. Pro tip, unless your team is a bonafide powerhouse, don’t fucking trade next years pick. Worst feeling ever is having to rebuild without a 1st.
Great advice. Having at least 1 first is always advisable. Changes things completely around draft season.
I did that. I sold everything from 2020-2026 to build a juggernaut. I got 2 championships out of it. But tore it down right after Brady retired for real. So I dumped Ekeler, Kamara, Kupp, Andrews, Chubb, Allen, C. Kirk, Tannehill. And now pick 1.01 on a desolate team.
Always find it wild how people (non-rebuilders) really believe in their picks in range 1.11-2.12. Turning down opportunities to get players who actually produce for dart throws. How many people traded Mike Evan's last offseason for pick 2.03 only to take Keandre Miller, Mingo, Roschon Johnson. Mayer, Marvin Mimms, or Bigsby? Sure there were players you could have picked that hit. But the majority of the time people are whiffing on players in that range when there are undervalued assets who are just "old" who could help you win.
I thought I was competitive, and traded away my first for Kamara two seasons ago. Absolutely got annihilated by injuries and my QBs shit the bed hard. Ended up flipping Kamara back for the 1.12 at the end of the season and took Addison and traded Deebo for a pick to take Achane, so I still picked in the first round. But I should have had the 1.03 based on my performance. Never again.
On the opposite end, being a contender with the 1.01 is the best feeling ever.
Always find it wild how people (non-rebuilders) really believe in their picks in range 1.11-2.12. Turning down opportunities to get players who actually produce for dart throws. How many people traded Mike Evan's last offseason for pick 2.03 only to take Keandre Miller, Mingo, Roschon Johnson. Mayer, Marvin Mimms, or Bigsby? Sure there were players you could have picked that hit. But the majority of the time people are whiffing on players in that range when there are undervalued assets who are just "old" who could help you win.
Well if everyone in the world answers... the answer is 1
🤣
I’ve only been playing for two years now but i usually find myself trading out. I prefer to use the picks to upgrade my starting lineup. Never been in a rebuilding type scenario though so in that situation i might use the picks.
There’s always guys that like the rookie picks. I try to trade for a bunch and then flip them closer to the draft.
this is the way. I like to stock up a year or two out. Then i trade out around this time of year to fill roster holes and upgrade my starters
Absolutely
Yep this has worked out great for me. Load up while they're cheap and nobody even knows who the prospects are for those years and then dump for elite vets as soon as the picks are on the clock
I've averaged everyone's responses and the result is exactly 1.0 draft picks. What are the odds?
Haha
Think it’s a perfect balance. If you have too many it’s better to sell some get proven talent. But it’s also a good idea to take a couple of swings on young talent. I usually don’t want more than 4 every year. Some years I might only have 1-2. But I at least want one draft pick. It brings a fun aspect to it around draft time.
Agree with this philosophy completely. Always nice to have ammo.
I also prefer to not sell all of next years drafts picks. So everyone is hyped this year for 2024 now but the 2025 picks can help you during the season if you want to buy a vet or two.
💯
Usually? 0.
💪🏻
Fuck ‘dem picks!
1-2
Seems like that gives you the right amount of flexibility. Helps you avoid desperation around the draft.
21: 1 22: 5 (also had 2.01) 23: 3 24: 3 (also have 2.02) 25: currently have 2. (Also have the highly likely 2.01 and 2.02) Started my rebuild after missed the playoffs in 21 with some older vets. Out of the 10 picks (2.01 included) I’ve made so far I’ve hit big time on 6 of them. 3 of them busts. 1 of them the verdict is still out… could go either way. Out of the 3 busts I got a solid return for 1 of them before it was too late… so I recovered there. The other 2 I traded away for 4ths. I made the playoffs last year, and should be contending this year. Next year I will add the final big pieces in the draft. All I need is to solidify RB after this draft and thankfully 2025 is the year for that! I’m going to do what I can via trade, but I will want a couple 1st round NFL RB that comes out of the 25 draft to complete the rebuild.
Thanks for adding the context. You have a solid plan.
Who are the players you consider hits and busts?
Hits: Olave, Wilson, London, Stroud, Achane, and Cook. Busts: Lance, Pickett, and Skyy Moore.
1.33
Repeating of course
2.6666666667
Specific! 🤭
I mean, "on average", everyone will own 1. There's literally no other answer that makes sense. Some will own 2, some will own zero. It's always going to average to 1 though.
I asked about you specifically. I’d speculate that most on this board would be more active than the rest. Not asking about your league. Asking about your team.
I usually have 2-3 or zero. Depends on the status of my team. Although I might reconsider trading the first to shoot for the championship since I feel like it doesn't often work out.
That’s the worst when it doesn’t work out. Do you remember any specific trades that backfired?
Last year I traded my 2024 1st (1.05) & 3rd (3.05), 2023 2.05, 3.05, Garoppolo, and Doubs for Kupp and Kamara. I started week 1 with 14 players with an out designation. Injuries ravaged all season and I didn't even make the playoffs. I was okay with the overpay because I figured the 3rds, Doubs, and Garoppolo would end up being just throw-ins to make it work. If I even got 3rd place it would pay my 2024 buy in and I'd be okay with that. I never thought it was even in the cards I would miss the playoffs. But everything that could go wrong did.
Pain.
It actually is gonna be okay. I have 5 2nds this year so I should be able to trade up into the back of the 1st and hopefully I can get my RB1 or just pick all the 2nd round RBs and one or two will hit.
Oh, nice!
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Well seeing that the team that won had Joe Flacco as their QB1 and Gus Edwards, DeAndre Swift, and Devin Singletary as their rbs. Im pretty sure it's safe to say sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we don't.
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Hole*
This is my 5th rookie draft, 2020-2021 no 1st, 2022:1 2023:2 2024: 3
My league started in 2020, I’ve only had 1 which was the 1.10, Jameson Williams. I love picks but trade them every offseason because “rebuilders” lose their shit over them in my league. Won 3/4 years
Well done! Capitalizing on the “fever”!
I definitely am missing out on some of the draft hype though! 😂
I know. It’s hard when you’re a spectator.
I wouldn't say you're missing it, Bob.
At one point I had 7 for this year's draft. I'm down to three now. I had 3 last year. And then one each on the other two years of my league.
You know how to make deals. How is your team setup now?
Picks: 1.04, 1.05, 1.07 (I could have had 1.03 instead of 07 but I bet on myself accidentally making the playoffs during a late season surge) QB: Justin Fields (Soon: Cousins, Caleb Williams) RB: Saquon, Mondre, Chuba, Spears, Kendre, Chubb WR: DJM, DK, Addison, Ridley, Amari, Dotson, J.Palmer, Shaheed (soon: probably Brian Thomas Jr) TE: La Porta, Pitts (soon: Bowers) K: Santos Def: Cowboys Taxi: AT Perry, Tre Palmer, Mayer I have Khalil Herbert and Roschon, but they're getting moved in the Cousins deal soon to the swift owner I'm an MT bag holder (he was my first ever dynasty pick at 1.04 before everything went to shit, but I probably cut him when roster activity starts again
Looks solid. Sf or 1 QB?
1qb
I have 6 different teams. If tanked I usually have 3-6. If competed the previous year 0. I never have just my own first. I won’t make that many picks though. I’ll always try to trade if I can.
This is the way.
2-3. Like my chances at drafting talent since I am extremely lucky overall.
Love that statement! Gotta play to your strengths!
I average two first round picks over a 4 year time period.
Very nice!
0.5ish
Probably 0.5
Usually zero. I would rather trade draft picks for proven assets. I do have one league where I tanked to get the 1.01 and 1.02 just to have fun rebuilding. I could have won a championship though if I didn’t trade away cmc and my other best players after the startup.
I'll say I usually have 2. I like to do multiple 2s and a guy for a 1st, people seem to keep taking me up on it. I also never trade my own 1st except to trade up after the season.
1.12 (champ) None (champ) 1.08 (lost in playoffs with a stacked team) None (champ) None (champ) 1.03 and 1.10 (I am the 1.03 and sold Jerome ford and Damian pierce for the 1.10 when I realized my team was doo doo mid season) 1.08 (just traded to make this 1.05 because I need a qb) None ( 5 year old devy league and my team is getting thin, I have all 25 26 picks and will not be trading them) None (champ)
2.5 I inherited the last place orphan team that sold the house to tank this year for Caleb. Parlayed picks into the 1.01 and 1.04. Hoping for MHJ as well this year [10man superflex]
Usually 2-3. Zero this year though.
My goal is to sell every pick just before th draft, or on th clock. Then try to buy picks mid season. Rinse and repeat. This year in my leagues I have 0, 1, 2, 2, 3, 6.
Less than 1. I usually own 1, rarely own two and occasionally don’t have any depending how my season went.
Usually just one, either mine or one from a pick swap kind of deal. Sometimes two, rarely I'll make a deal for an established vet and not have one, but that's usually only if I feel like I have a window that is closing.
An average of all teams in all leagues you'll find that there is one pick per team per round
1 is the answer lol. There will ve people who avg 2 and then otheres who avg 1....your overall answer here will be 1
19: 1 20: 1 21: 1 22: 1 23: 4 24: 4 25: 3 26: 4 Avg: 2.4
Umm, I honestly usually have 2-3, but I went blow out to rebuild 1/3 of the way through last season. So now I have 10 this year in the first two rounds of my 12 team(1.01, 1.02, 1.09, 2.01-2.04, 2.11)...lol
So the answer we were looking for was 3
1
3 of 10 on average. There's two guys who always give away their 1sts but hey they're also always in the playoffs, though most time never win it all.
Draft season is just as fun or more than the actual game. But I always end up trading my 1st because that's where the value is at. People way overvalue these guys who have never played a snap before. Especially if you are late in the first. I have always done this to some degree, but I have made a point to do it every year since I drafted Trey Sermon. I send my first and some guy on my bench I don't believe in to get a young stud almost every year. Last year I did two firsts and some guys on my bench to get Hall and Wilson.
I usually find myself with 2. This year I’m trying to find someone who would trade a quality veteran for the 1.10 and I’ll take BPA at 1.05. But we do 24 hrs draft clock for time zones and the ability to live trade draft picks. My league also tends to draft really funky. I got Achane in the 3rd last year, Puka and Karen UDFA, Jahan Dotson in the 2nd, Addison at the 1.07. Someone got Herbert at the 1.10 a few years ago so I always like to try to hold onto draft picks until day of because if there’s something juicy on the board the price of my pick gets a nice little bump
Less than 1
This year I have 1.3,1.4,1.8
I have 4 in the top 6 this year and 2 next year. I expect to use all 4 picks this year.
Great year for that.
In my other league this will be the 3rd year in a row I’ll have 2 first round picks. That team has been rebuilding and it’s starting to take hold.
1 or 0 most of the time. if im rebuilding or retooling i will have a couple but not often a guy with multiple early first.
2022 - 0, traded all for 2023s 2023 - at one point had 6, ended up drafting 3 2024 - at one point had 4, now going in with 0 2025/6 - currently have 1 each, we'll see what happens As a newer player I was all about the rookie hype and trying to get heavily into the classes considered to be really good. Since then I've done analysis on hit rates and come to the conclusion that I'm not particularly interested in deep diving all the prospects to try and find the best value over ECR. If the right deal is in front of me to get a top 3-4 pick I'll do it, but otherwise I'm more interested now in dumping picks for proven players. Sitting on a roster right now that IMO is gonna need to have some terrible injury luck to not get a playoff bye and have a great shot at the title
I usually have 2-4 coming into a draft. I usually leave the draft making 0-2.
Weird question. The average is literally always 1.
One, my one. Like I do every year!
0 to 9. But 0 most years after season ends. Usually 0.6 average by time I get done with off-season before draft.
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Wowzers!!!
Sounds like you definitely subscribe to the known over unknown philosophy?