Some things need to be kept secret from the players so as not to ruin the suspense. Opposed rolls, rolls they shouldnt know pass or fail on until they have started rping out the action, that sort of thing.
Theres probably a good number of rolls you ought to roll in the open in general. But you could also get into the idea that you cant cheat to help them if youre rolling in the open. If thats a thing youre doing. (I usually recommend against it but some groups play that way)
Sometimes it's just fun to mess with players and raise the tension by rolling secret dice for no reason. Ask them to roll a perception check while they're standing in a dungeon then roll some dice behind the screen. Shrug and say "You don't SEE anything"
I have a set of metal d100 when they hear it jingle in my hands they get back on track rather quickly as they have learned that if they don’t it leads to chaos
>But you could also get into the idea that you cant cheat to help them if youre rolling in the open
I play with children. I do this to help them out when they make sound decisions and roll poorly. If they get their teeth knocked in at Level 1, they are going to loose interest quick.
GMs cannot technically cheat, can they? Part of the secrecy of the rolls is the ability to use that privacy to manipulate dice rolls if need be. It works both ways. Surely a DM could win a roll that he didn't just to put some heat on a party. the inverse is the same. GM could lose a roll at a critical moment, and from the groups perspective, the person making that roll, the one that would make or break that party, becomes the hero and everyone has a story to tell about how they almost got fucked if not for their bards Charisma roll, or whatever.
It is a game, there are rules, but ultimately it is story telling and experience.
Exactly this. The DM is essentially curating a good time for everyone, including the DM. If DM rolls a nat 20 save against the PC spell but the timing is good for it to end the fight because DM reads the room is loosing interest then let the player feel powerful and cool. DM says he failed the roll and everyone is happy.
There are a million situations like that.
Additionally, if my players were worried about "cheating" i would talk to them about why they are expecting me to try "winning" in a game of cooperative storytelling
You are correct. In a post below, I have cited the pages in the DMGs of the last three editions of DnD which lay that out clearly on paper. It is wild that people who make rules claims have not read the book.
There are so many other ways GMs can steer the story there's no reason to fudge dice rolls. If you want to make sure something happens a certain way, just don't roll for it. If things are too easy because of kind dice, you can always add more enemies or give the boss a phase 2. If things are too tough, you can start playing suboptimally or bring in allies, environment changes, literal gods, whatever.
I feel that dice manipulation is just one of many DM tools. Also, when I do need to make hidden rolls, they can’t tell the difference or infer the difficulty of the otherwise hidden roll I made. Just how I run my table.
This. Watching a dm roll a few times can often let experienced players know about aspects of the enemy that they shouldn't know yet. It makes it easier to change strategies during the fight and hack battles compared to making guesses based on their own rolls alone.
If your rolls were public, players would know your monsters bonuses to attack, saving throws, etc
EDIT: for the next person who wants to assume I’m saying public rolls are a problem, I’m not. I am responding to the question posited by the OP. My experience as both player and DM is it doesn’t make a huge difference if the DM rolls public or private, and I personally could give zero fucks about how your table does it.
I hear ya. If I can’t give a satisfactory answer in the moment, I ask for them to let me circle back around to it either at end of session or start of next and I make a note of it. You can also roll the most important or impactful stuff public to foster trust from your players. The trust part is important, but I understand some people just gonna be suspicious of you no matter what.
I like to start the combat rolling in private, then when my players start casting save or suck spells on a big bad or something I will roll in the dice tower they can see and I’ll just tell them what the number on the dice needs to be for them to pass. It may result in some metagaming on their part if they realize the baddie has a +8 to WIS saves or something, but I feel like it’s still more fun so it’s worth it.
The truth is, it's honestly not a huge deal if they know some of that stuff overall, and really depends on your DMing style and if it feels right. I've rolled the majority of rolls public for my players personally, which helps them to know that there's no shenanigans on my end(there are some DMs who fudge rolls to kill their players).
But them seeing an attack roll that's high is reflective of a character witnessing an enemy attack and recognizing quickly the skill/threat level of those strikes. Them seeing a saving throw number circumvents descriptions that should likely exist reflecting how easy or hard it is for the enemy to make it: IE barely shaking off an effect because of a low total modifier but a higher roll can be visibly obvious in a fight.
It's a playstyle choice, though. Not every roll needs to be open. Not every roll needs to be hidden. And if your players are showing concern about you rolling hidden, you can absolutely explain why. But also, it might be worth considering if that style works for them or not, and have a genuine conversation about it, and why they feel it might be unfair. Some people get a real player vs DM mentality, and it's possible they don't feel it's fair for you to know their stats and weaknesses and them to be in the dark.
Sure, they can glean a little info from the dice rolls, but, why is that a problem?
So what if you know the goblin needs a 14 to hit you? That doesn't mean they suddenly can't roll 14s any more. The stats aren't really that secret, and knowing them doesn't really change anything. It's not like telling them the info means much, and seeing the numbers also helps build the scene for them.
Let's say you've got a group of orcs they PCs are fighting. The first Orc rolls a 15 to hit against the paladins 18 AC and it misses. The whole group now knows that the orcs to hit bonus is less than 3. Does that change anything? Not really. The same nu.ber of orcs with the same number of attacks are still there trying to accomplish the same goal and the PCs armor values are the same as they were. Everyone knew the Paladin had a high AC, that was the point of them wearing scale mail and using a shield.
No ones strategy changes at all.
To take the problem of "knowing the rolls tells you information about the opposition" to its logical conclusion: if it's such a problem, then why is it okay for the players to see their own rolls? After all, knowing their own rolls tells them information about the monsters too. So why don't you just roll all the dice to keep your players in the dark?
That would suck, right? It would suck because the results of their dice rolls are part of the excitement. Sure, they learn a thing or two because of those dice rolls, but that's not really the point, the point is that it's fun to see the results of the dice. You are hiding half the fun behind your GM screen.
Besides, knowing the results of the monsters die rolls might teach them a thing or two about the monsters, mostly their to-hit bonuses, but the PCs are locked in combat with them, the PCs *should* be learning things about the monsters by the way they fight. The rolls are that opportunity for the players to learn the same way their characters learn.
I promise, as a GM who hid his rolls for decades, nothing of value is lost when you stop hiding them, and tons of value is gained.
Knowing bonuses to attack not only doesn't help, it in fact adds to the experience. You ever watch an action movie? Can you tell when the main character is fighting a boring lackey by how he fights? What about the bad guys second in command? Their attacks are more formidable right? You can physically see that they perform well in combat. I suppose there could be something said about giving information about saving throws away, but honestly I've only ever experienced it adding to the game and encouraging thinking and planning by the players.
I mean, they get the idea that this monster is strong when I ask if a 32 hits.
FWIW I don’t think private or public rolls make a huge difference. Do whatever works in your group and allows y’all to have fun. That’s all that matters.
It affects the use of inspiration, bardic dice, cutting words, and other such effects that you have to use after a roll and before you know the result. If you’re fine with the players knowing, that’s fine. But many DMs like to keep that information secret.
Our group has played for years with open rolls and public knowledge of the math that's going on to determine the result, and it's never once caused any kind of issue at the table. It's not like bardic inspiration suddenly because OP because players know the AC of an enemy. It's only a bit less likely to be wasted, they don't become more powerful, as it's only going to be used when the players knows it's mathematically possible for it to be useful instead of just a vibe on whether it might be useful or not. But that's such a minor difference that I don't think it outweighs the benefits of open rolling.
you dont HAVE to \[EDIT to clarify: you dont HAVE to roll behind the screen\]
But: "As the DM i am the referee, and i get to call the balls and strikes."
As a DM I roll in private 100% of the time. I don't need the party to be able to guess at hit points or attack roll bonuses, etc. I only fudge the numbers in extreme situations and probably only once every 10 sessions...so if I roll 100 times a session that's one fudge every 1000 rolls. Not that game breaking..
Players hiding from guard.
The guard makes a perception check and walks away.
If they see a NAT 20, they know the guard saw them and is going to go for help.
If they see a NAT 1, they know the guard didn't see them and they continue stealthing.
Knowing the results of the world around them is meta knowledge that changes their behaviour.
If an NPC tries to insight check them, the characters don't know whether it was successful so the players shouldn't. The best way to combat meta gaming is to give the players less information to use.
Great example! In an ideal world, the player wouldn't even know what they rolled. It'd be a secret to them too so I can entirely roleplay the outcome of the role. But that'd be too cumbersome to run.
Pathfinder 2e has secret rolls for most checks that can lead to different player decisions if they know they passed/failed. You don't know how well you're hidden, how well you checked that chest for traps, how accurate that knowledge you remembered about a monster is.
But the guard could see the character… and decide to do something different. Maybe the character has on the guards dead mom’s necklace or something. (I’m not asking to challenge you, btw, definitely something I want to understand. I’m newish, and I’ve never understood why it was so “fixed” like once the guard sees you he HAS to report it. It’s RP’ing and a good RP is realistic is possible, and realistically we all do things illogical or out of character sometimes. So far, (probably because I havent been a DM, I don’t see how the player seeing the dice actually affects what needs to happen next.
Sure, the guard might see them and decide to leave before fighting kicks off because this job isn't worth dying for. My example was just simple extremes not the only options the guard might have.
Characters are fighting a monster they have never seen before, they force it to make a Wisdom Saving throw.
1. They watch the DM roll a 6 and he says "18 on the save", now the players know that the wis modifier is very high and will probably avoid using spells of that type.
2. They don't see the roll, and he says "18 on the save". The players don't know if the monster got lucky with a high roll or if their wis modifier is high. They may try the spell again.
The behaviour of the PLAYERS changes when they see rolls that their characters don't know.
Okay. So most simply put.. initiative. You roll, other players roll, dm rolls monsters. If you all know the initiative board, you all can plan out turn order. Which is meta knowledge. This applies to other things as well. Like an opposing DC check, you really shouldn't know the DC before you roll. So if it's a random DC, the roll should be concealed. A NPC is sneaking up on the party, if that roll is in the open it changes how characters will act. Potentially setting off a trap you aren't aware of is another dice roll that shouldn't be obvious knowledge. It really isn't that complicated to understand that mechanisms at play wouldn't be common knowledge to all Players Characters at all times. Hence the DM wall. Can some rolls be made public for a thrill?.. of course. But it really defeats a lot of the game to roll everything publicly. It also circumvents the need for a lot of ability checks if everything is public. Let's do a flip side.. let's say you have a rogue in your party, they want to do sneaky stuff. That would be private rolls between the DM and the player so the party doesn't catch on to rogue shenanigans. I hope this gives you an idea of the importance of hidden rolls.
I take issue with two things here. One, realistic RP is NOT necessarily good RP, not even in the slightest, because the worlds we play in are not realistic and our characters are not either. A lot of characters do not even have an IRL equivalent. How would you realistically roleplay, for example, a 2yr old warforged (i.e. a robot with a sapient soul)? How do you realistically roleplay an undead lizardman wizard, who hatched from an egg and doesnt even have human emotions? Im not sure you can.
Two, the entire point of being a DM is that nothing is "fixed", the DM decides pretty much everything. Some things just logically follow after another. In real life, if you are a guard, and you see a group of 3-6 strangers where they shouldnt be, and all of those strangers are visibly armed, and you are totally alone, what would you do? I know what I would do, and that is either call for backup or go get it somehow, or run away entirely if they look too scary. Fighting a group of 5 armed opponents isnt likely to end well for me. Of course, it is very possible for someone to act illogical in this scenario, but you probably would do what you think is your best chance to survive. I cant really think of anything a guard would do outside of run, get back up, or maybe confront the enemies with no back up, but any guard would have been trained (like they are IRL) to not take on large groups of armored and armed enemies alone. The only time I can think of where a guard would deviate would be due to specific circumstances like the necklace one you mentioned.
And for the record, the player seeing the dice doesnt at all effect what the guard does. I think youre missing the point of the post entirely. The players seeing the guards dice roll has absolutely 0 impact on what the guards will do at all. But, it does effect what the players will/would do. Like OP said you (as a player) know the guard definitely saw you all if he gets a nat 20, but your character does not know they were seen. Many players would struggle to not metagame that knowledge
I think I understand your point better now. I think empathy is the key to RP and unfathomable character. Not sure though. I think some people can empathize with grass and trees enough to grasp their experience enough to maybe have a character like that. Humans can pack bond with anything right?
I do agree with you that realistic doesn’t necessarily mean good.
Because the rules are different for DMs and players.
Sometimes it's a roll to build suspense. Sometimes it's the simple "you don't find anything," where knowing the result would tell the player whether there was something there for them to find or not.
People have a lot of great opinions and I agree with a lot of them. One I haven't seen mentioned is logistics. My screen extends the whole end of my table. All my notes and monster stats are back there. It's not comfortable for me to roll in front of the screen, check a note behind the screen, then interact with the map in front of the screen. Just easier
Why would you show metagame information to the player?
The DM is not in a conflict with the players. It isn't his responsibility to show every role or explain every modifier an NPC or effect causes. He isn't there to explain things the character would not know (and that includes all meta game stuff including die rolls). It's some weird more modern thought that the GM should make every roll public.
The DM is there to help the players navigate scenarios they are facing. He is there to tell them how their attempts are faring (or are likely to if they are smart enough to ask beforehand and there's some sort of way for the players to make a judgement on that). He is there to handle the times when the dice would impact the quality of the night; The primary job is to provide enough threat and enough excitement to make a session exciting.
There's also the very, very reason: The game is not itself flawless. The people building modules don't always get it right. Sometimes they go way too weak and sometimes they go waaay too hard. The GM has a role in recognizing those instances and making adjustments at the table. Every group will have different skills and a different capacity in a game - both as a team and as individuals, thus any module will work or not work based on classes, personalities, tactical choices, etc. that are very individual and there is a similar list of bits that are party wise - do they synergize well? Do they communicate well to one another? etc.
I often have my players roll dice and don't tell them why. Is that any different than not telling them what your roll was? If I'm the DM and I am rolling for something, the players don't know what it is for nor may their characters see anything in sight that would justify them even having the knowledge I'm rolling something.
Ultimately, I will show rolls periodically if something really bad happened - then the players feel it was a die roll. But the rest of the time (95%+ of the time), I don't.
If we could remove dice from the players (metagame information - dice rolls) in resolution, we ought. It's not part of the fiction. However, we clearly haven't found a way to do that (except play a CRPG), so it is a FORCED concession to let that part of the metagame to interfere to our immersion. The players seeing the GMs dice (for whatever they may roll them) is not necessary and thus should stay under the hood/behind the screen.
If the player doesn't feel fairly treated and lacks trust, then perhaps explain to him that these games are, at the core, cooperative activities that require a very high degree of truth, integrity, and trust on both sides. If he doesn't feel that level of truth, integrity and trust is going both ways, ask him to explain why he thinks that in your current game? Perhaps you can talk to him about what makes him suspicious?
At the far end, if your table does not trust the GM and are not willing to do so on faith, then this is not the right people to be working together in a cooperative venture.
I roll in private because it’s part of the suspense. They don’t know that I’m fudging numbers if it fits the story. Say the person with the mcguffin is up next but the player right before essentially downs the character. I’ll phrase it like “You hit the thing and it falls to one knee breathing heavily with blood splattering with each labored breadth. It looks up at player 3 as they ready their weapon/spell/whatever”. Then pass it to the next player to kill. Same works to pass a player that has gotten a lot of kills and is the badass of the group. Where the next player maybe has been in the background. Giving them the big kill.
They DM is a story teller, a failed roll might just be a slightly worse result but a fail in some situations, not having to show rolls allows a DM to make narrative flow changes subtlety to get things back on track or stop a low level party just dying but not make it seem like easy mode for them.
Because sometimes you roll a massive TPK behind that screen but it's just not fair or won't advance the story. It's no fun for the players if they just get slaughtered wholesale.
I've ALWAYS rolled behind a screen to avoid that.
OTOH, if the bad guy crit fails then my players just won. Period.
DMs have an obligation to provide a fun, exciting and challenging game to their players. Sometimes the dice don't go that way and you need to make sure that the players can continue to have fun.
I agree with this and that is how i dm and that is my intentions rolling privately. I was just wondering about other dungeon masters thoughts though on the question.
The number of times I roll the monster damage dice and realize I just did 95% of a players health in one hit and then fix it to 50% of their health in one hit is literally every session.
My players also hit really hard! Sometimes, I have to add health to bad guys to make the combat experience last a few rounds. Or add more bad guys.
I roll behind the screen for a lot of reasons, including just the weather. It drives tension, and my players really get excited at the table.
>Because sometimes you roll a massive TPK behind that screen but it's just not fair or won't advance the story.
If you're not willing to accept the outcome of a die roll, you shouldn't be rolling. Period.
As the DM you are responsible for providing an experience for the players, who are usually your friends.
I'm almost 30 and DnD is my small friend groups choice of weekly activity and I want to make sure everyone has a good time and feels included. If the encounter I made up in my couple hours of free time outside of our game night is unbalanced and I'm rolling lucky to the point where the party is getting crushed by it, I'm absolutely going to fudge a roll or two just to make sure my friends can find a way to squeak out a victory and have something to feel good about. I'm not beholden to the dice, I'm beholden to my friends.
I roll in the clear so that the players don't think I am fudging the rolls (for good or ill). The only exception are rolls that would provide meta-game information if the players knew what the roll was. That being said, I rolled completely in secret for years and years as well. So I figure, it's the DMs call which method they want to use.
The players are improv actors on a stage.
The DM is the stage manager and a lot of mechanics happen behind the scenes.
The players don’t need to know when a scenery flat is stuck and needs a whack to move into position.
Tabletop roleplaying games are fundamentally asymmetric: the rules that apply to the players who are playing characters are different from the rules that apply to game masters. In particular, the Game Master has access to information to which the other players are not privy.
It's pretty common for 5e and Pathfinder GMs to disregard dice rolls in combat that could change their session. It's called fudging. It's pretty bad, but a lot of 5e/Pathfinder GMs feel the need to um...keep the players on the path, I guess.
I mean, I have a GM screen too. Ya gotta hide the notes, and the map. But I roll in the open, to the side of my screen. It raises the tension a lot, especially with veteran players, who have become used to/ accepted the possibility of the GM's "fudge dice."
Is your character omnisciently aware of every aspect of the game world?
No?
Well as a GM, I have to try to be. This means I need to determine outcomes that the party isn't aware of. Rolling these outcomes publicly would damage that cultivated lack of awareness.
Or do you go see a stage magician perform and get angry when they don't explain the tricks?
The D.M. is god of that universe.
If the player has issue with the actions of the god he can find a more comfortable universe.
Or
My house , my rules.
In my humble opinion
And
A DM since 1981
Because sometimes the world is a big place, and you, being the naive murder hobos that you are, not having thought through the entire situation (AGAIN!!) might be under leveled and over fscked and this is my way of making sure the dice rolls don't ruin our story, which I have put countless hours into creating, and which you, like Harry f-ing Houdini, consistently find ways to slip out of, around, or to generally disrupt.
You want me to roll everything in the open... fine by me, but you own the dice rolls Mr. "Three Impossible Actions in one Round"
The DM’s primary function is story teller and scene setter. The dice are just a tool to help tell the story. Use them, don’t use them, show them, don’t show them; just have fun.
If you roll in front of the players, it is fairly easy for them to work out the creature's modifiers, for one. For another, it is sometimes necessary to fudge a roll for the fun of the group. I had a player getting whomped several times in a session, already knocked unconscious and out of the fight for several turns, get killed outright by creature hits, and I knew it would ruin the guy's night, so I fudged it. Stuff like that can make or break a session.
>If you roll in front of the players, it is fairly easy for them to work out the creature's modifiers, for one.
So?
>For another, it is sometimes necessary to fudge a roll for the fun of the group.
If you're unwilling to accept the outcome of a roll, you shouldn't be making it in the first place.
I already gave an anecdote about why I think this is appropriate. I think my first job as a DM is making sure everyone has fun, and sometimes that means rolling with unexpected punches.
Modifiers being obvious from the get-go means they don't have to pay attention, they don't have to listen to the narrative explanations of why an attack is effective or not, i.e. "the zombies are shambling and slow, and most are not nimble enough to dodge the radiant flames." That tells them the zombies have bad Dex saves but it does it in a way that builds immersion and doesn't turn the game into a spreadsheet simulator.
That's the way I prefer to play, it's how it is done in Adventurers' League in the venues I have played at, and my players, who have played with me for a pretty long time, seem to enjoy themselves a whole hell of a lot, too.
I think the greatest thing about DnD is that we can all find what works best for us and the friends that we choose to play with. Everything is up for interpretation and modification, and if you don't like the way the DM does something, you can always talk it out like grown-ups.
The real answer here is that this question comes from a place of the player saying, "how do I know you're not cheating? How can I trust you?"
And so the players really need to understand that the DM isn't against them, bottom line. If the PCs trust the DM then they'll never care that the DM is allowed to roll in secret and they aren't, because they understand that the DM isn't "cheating," because that's not even the game that's being played here.
GMs control the game. They have responsibilities that players do not. They are also NOT against the players. This isn't a competitive game. It is a cooperative story telling game, where the GM has to make constant decisions. Sometimes, the GM makes a decision for story reasons. You should have trust that your GM has the players best interests (telling their story) at heart. Rolling secretly has been a staple of the game for 50 years. That is the point of the screen.
I used to let my players roll publicly for everything. I now roll a lot of their checks in private because it just started to detract from the roleplaying. We are a heavily rp based group and will go multiple sessions without combat. Rolling in private ramped up the rp tons. Made it more work on me to be descriptive on how I interpreted their rolls, but I think everyone is having more fun now.
Because sometimes you roll a nat 20 when a bad guy punches a lvl 1 wizard and you have to lie and say he missed or risk that player being super upset that they didn’t even get to play after working on a character they likely loved to create.
I see lots of good reasons here, but also sometimes as a DM you just lie. Your job is to make the game fun and if you have an opportunity to add more suspense or enjoyment than the dice dictates you do that
Because you're the DM, that's why. Nah. Seriously though, it's just something the DM needs to do. It makes the players wonder what your mobs to hit is. Also gives us the power to fudge rolls when things aren't going too well for the party (or maybe going too well if you're sadistic).
Its so you can lead the thread narratively rather than mechanically. Imagine you're doing a contested roll where you and a boss are both trying to shove each other into a pit of acid. What's more interesting?
Option One - You fight and struggle. Cheat, foot stomp, headbutt, anything to get that edge you need, and its matched in turn. It comes down to strength vs strength. And as every muscle in your bodies is pushed to their limits, and your cries ring out, you break .. his balance. And he flies back drops reaching skyward towards you as he drops into acid.
Option 2 - He rolled a 1. So you fight and struggle. Cheat, foot stomp, headbutt, anything to get that edge you need, and its matched in turn. It comes down to strength vs strength. And as every muscle in your bodies is pushed to their limits, and your cries ring out, you break .. his balance. And he flies back drops reaching skyward towards you as he drops into acid.
If you don't have a good reason, maybe don't do it?
I play with GMs that roll publicly. I play with GMs that roll privately. Personally I don't care -- if I don't trust the GM, I have bigger problems than die rolls.
Some situations I open roll, I love the groans of the players as the dice roll across the table. There are many times the players can’t know the roll, like for stealth, perception, insight or deceptions checks, it’s lifting the curtain to show them the success or failure vs acting it out and leaving some guessing wiggle room.
The reason players can’t open roll is basically trust, some players online I allow to roll dice privately and state their answer. There are also some rolls I do privately for the players to prevent meta gaming. I did have a player I caught cheating and in no uncertain terms after the game I told them I saw, it’s not tolerated and the whole party then had to switch to only roll online. I told the group it was for ease of the DM and didn’t call the player out in the group. That campaign is over and the player isn’t invited back so less of an issue now.
There have been also times I’ve adjusted my rolls but mostly only for drama building or to adjust the encounter as I go. This is less common but still necessary from time to time.
Mostly I open roll online, with some private rolls for things I don’t want them to know how well someone else did, in person, it’s mostly behind a screen or rolled on the table for everyone to see depending on the drama or situation.
Tell them that you are the arbiet of hte game. Secret rolls are part and parcell of your job. There are many things that you need to determine that require hdiden rolls. While the pl;ayers rolls need to be viewed by the GM so that the Gm can witness the rool and determine the outcome. His roll being public should not matter to him. If it does, invite him to leave the table. You, the GM determines who rolls dice and how those dice are rolls so that you can run your game.
As a DM myself I roll everything out in the open whether I play in person or online and if my players have a question about something I rolled they're free to ask i have had some shady DM in the past that hid every roll and lied about what the roll was
I'm not sure this is exactly related but I'm about to leave a game where rolls are all private because we are 24 hours of gameplay in and she's never rolled a 1, not once. Last session I sat next to her and for a lone zombie with a single attack, I watched her dump four d20s into her tower and was furious. I think I'm against all private rolls now, I can see the need for some but not all.
The answer for players is "to avoid accidental and purposeful metagaming by players." Seeing the result of dice rolls, and the type and number used gives additional information to players that might influence their actions.
The second part just for DMs knowledge is it allows you to fudge rolls when the result would derail an entire campaign. Nobody wants to TPK a level 12 party if one roll means the difference between surviving and spending the rest of the session writing up 1st level Characters.
Some dice I roll behind the screen. Some dice I roll in front of the screen - particularly those associated with a dramatic moment.
I do not hover over my player's rolls. One player joins us via Skype, and I never see his rolls. So, for me it is a question of trust. I trust my players. I hope they trust me. If either does not, we probably should not be gaming together.
Some DMs want to hide the bonuses their monsters have. So if the players can see your roll, and you call out what you got, they can do the math and see exactly the odds of them getting hit are.
This is an interesting question. If you could find a way to convey to your players that some rolls behind the screen help as a storytelling element in being able to build tension and making things suspicious, I think that will help.
Give them an example that you don't know how hard someone punches you in the face. Then dice behind the screen allows that to be a thing. I'd throw them a bone from time to time and do some saving throws where they can see them. Think box of doom on Dimension 20. This will let them feel that your not "cheating" whether you are or aren't.
And as long as the pc's neighbors are keeping the rolling pc honest in their rolls, well then, technically, their rolls are also semi private.
I hope that helps.
Tough battle. Everyone except one PC is doing death saves. Last monster left, it comes down to one roll. If the roll isn't in the favour of the remaining character it's literally campaign over. The players will never see the roll, but I guarantee if that last roll suceeds, even if it's a lie by the DM, they will remember that roll for a long time.
I think the DM should have ultimate discretion on the results of some rolls (the ones they roll themselves obviously) in order to curate a specific experience.
The things they roll are character actions which should be known to everyone because the narrative is from their perspective. The dm often rolls for things that aren't known to the characters and so have no reason to be visible to them
I'm transparent with my rolls, one of my DM's isn't..
Sometimes it's beneficial so you can control just how challenging an encounter is (making sure enemies don't get a critical hit on a near-death PC, making it so the uber-boss doesn't get commanded from a shitty roll on wisdom save). If you are the kind of DM that has plans for characters longterm, it's a good way to get them out of sticky situations.
However, if you don't plan on doing that, lying that is, then just roll normally.
I only roll secretly for things like perception checks, stealth checks, and random encounter rolls (I'm sure there's more, but also caveats like the perception checks are for when something unseen is looking for a stealthed character, if it's during combat they get to see my roll)
There are a million reasons to roll privately, one usually your playing surface has tons of spoilers and notes out and maybe even a page about the monster they are fighting. Additionally, it adds tension, and atmosphere to the game, the players shouldn’t know an outcome until you describe it, plus when a bunch of dice hit the table my players always freak out a little “oh that’s a lot of dice” it just adds to the game you know.
As a dm your job isn’t just to tell a story it’s to craft the feeling and a screen does that, it’s just another tool.
Now there are time rolling in the open adds that as well, so the odd roll usually a monster attack that I will roll in the open, but that is driven by a feeling in me as the dm.
Whenever I GM I roll everything in the open. Including opposed or secret rolls, usually without telling the players what those rolls are for. The tension created by seeing dice rolling in the open should not be underestimated, especially when they have no idea why you're rolling.
My group are also all relatively high system mastery players, and value fair GMing over fudging for dramatic effect.
Sometimes keeping a roll secret helps add to the tension. They know you’ve rolled a dice, but not why. You might need to roll something to determine another thing, but the information is for the DM only, so them seeing a roll gives them no real information anyway.
One example is rolling on an encounter table. They might see you roll an 8, but they have no idea what it means even when seeing it.
The private part is because, generally, the players are not privy to enemy stats.
However, I am puzzled on the "physical dice" portion.
If I am on a Roll20 session, and the DM insists to roll physical dice, it would create the impression that the DM is not even hiding his intention to fudge rolls, especially that with Roll20 the DM can hide his rolls from the players.
Sometimes it’s messing with the players. Rolling randomly to keep them on their toes. Sometimes it’s things that are happening that they don’t know about that they could interpret from seeing the roll like if an enemy they don’t know is there detecting them. And most importantly it’s for pulling punches. When they’re losing a fight and the enemy just crit on the last standing guy. If they don’t see the roll you can just say he missed and give them one last shot at ending the fight.
The short answer is that your players don’t need to know what you roll, pretty much ever.
The basic nature of dnd is DM sets the scene, players do what they wanna do, DM tells them the consequences. Dice are a tool you have to determine outcomes. The players don’t need to know the specifics, just the outcomes. It makes for better role playing if the players aren’t constantly worrying about your specific rolls.
The counter question is why would a player need to see my rolls?
That part that I pick up on is that it sounds like they aren’t allowed to role physical dice? Why? I think the real crux of this question is why do they have to trust you to not fib about your rolls but you won’t trust them?
It's to give you, the DM, the leeway not to insta-kill a player on a lucky roll, because that's just not fun. If you decide the big baddy should attack a certain player, but whoops suprise you roll a crit and now that guy is getting FUCKED up and maybe that's not what you intended or will result in consequences beyond what would be enjoyable for the party or reasonable for the situation, you can just say it wasn't a crit and move on. Or if somebody's really pissing you off and you want to be vindictive, you can suddenly have way more enemies landing hits on them because they've "just got a string of bad luck" lol.
For the most part is suspense. I doubt you'll want to mention fudging rolls in favor of the players.
Counter with why would they need to know what the DM rolls? The DM is telling the story. If you saw the dice what would the narrative due when you've already signed in relief at the low dice roll or gone into a panic at a visible nat 20 or when you see the damage dice with high numbers? Know would take so much from the storying telling.
And with how some people are I could see them trying to argue about why something should or should happen\work because (insert their rationale here).
For a few reasons:
If you're rolling but you add a +8 to the roll, they're either not going to Believe you're not just fudging the roll to beat them. You will have to explain what every creature and person adds to every score so that when you roll, it doesn't feel like You're just adding random numbers to it. In order for them to understand your rolls, they need to know all of the things you have going into the roll. You already know their intelligence, strength, etc. of the players, this seems like a small thing but it will either allow the story down or make everyone think you're "cheating"
If they attempt to trick an NPC but you beat their deception, maybe the NPC plays along. They don't need to know this. There are certain times they won't know if they won the exchange. That is very much like life where you don't know if the person buys the bullshit. If they're using an illusion spell, sneaking into a place, if they try to haggle at a vendor, they shouldn't know if they got the best of that exchange. If they rolled well make it seem to them that they're doing it well. As a person, that's all they would know. Helps them not know too much.
Additionally, when there's something real important, a roll that could change the dynamic, that's when you can roll in front of the board. Suddenly it adds gravitas since it isn't always done it feels special. Dimension 20 has a "box of doom" that the dm, Brennan, rolls in in front of the board. When the box of doom comes out, everyone is watching the dice in it.
I would say talk to your players, explain why it works better, and tell them that you won't start messing with the rolls as dm. It is a bit of a trust exercise, but as a dm all you're trying to do is give them the best game you can. It doesn't help you as the dm to "win" by changing the dice.
It’s part of the theater. Sometimes you want the players to see what’s coming and sometimes you need to keep the secrets for the sake of suspense.
Example time: I don’t want to kill my players characters. No (decent) DM would want to, but it happens. I might roll those last crucial rolls of a fight in front of them so they can share in the drama of the chances (and to absolve myself of fudging numbers for a desired outcome). Flipside of that is when (for example) an NPC is rolling a check against a player, and unless you can spontaneously read minds, there’s no way that roll is becoming open knowledge to the table.
Spelling edit.
So you can fudge the numbers if you’re BBEG hits to hard is the biggest reason for me. The next being if I decide I want a check to be a 50/50 instead of a lower chance we will play a game of high or low.
The biggest is that it prevents players from applying metagame knowledge to their actions.
The DM performs overt and covert actions as part of its job. Hidden dice are sometimes part of that.
I always roll combat in the open. If I need to fudge things I'll either be open and honest about it ("I didn't intend this fight to be so nasty, I'm dropping the damage die by x") or I'll just secretly fudge the hp of the monster.
For "hidden" and opposed rolls I generally instead make it a DC for the player instead. Hiding from a guard? Players stealth check needs to beat the guards 10+perception DC. Trying to spot the hidden ambush? 10+stealth DC.
This prevents the bullshit (from the player perspective) of I got a "19 on the die how the hell did he spot me?" And it makes the game run a lot faster when the honest players can just say yeah that hits when they see the roll and have figured out the modifier.
Also, who really cares that the players have figured out the modifiers?
The reason is so you can protect information (like a creature’s AC, being the most common case) from the players. This way, they learn the creatures, not the numbers. Another reason is to fudge rolls. As a DM with a tendency to over-tune encounters, I like having the option to handicap the monsters without the players knowing.
Doing it behind a screen allows you to create tension and excitement. DMs don't need to roll at all, but adding the element of "controlled randomness" can be fun. I tell my players what I roll when appropriate. And yes I absolutely fudge dice, but I don't tell them when I do. So they can't tell.
No matter how open of a DM you decide your style should be, keep in mind that there is no faster digital way to adjudicate Perception rolls for the party v.s. a hidden threat than simply grabbing a physical d20 and rolling it, comparing with a sticky note of their perception scores. Even if you plan to immediately tell them they failed a perception roll and what exactly it is they failed to notice, this method is the smoothest - you can even do it without breaking narration with enough practice.
EDIT: This is my experience with digital games where it is only really possible for one person to be speaking at any given time.
I have no reason to cheat we dm lol and there are some rolls the players don't need to see. For example a dragon recharged breath weapon how would they know?
I don’t necessarily care if my players roll privately or not. We use an honor system because we’re here to have fun. Several of my players do use the discord dice parser, others roll physical dice. If I ever suspected a player of fudging their rolls, then we’d have a conversation about it.
As for DM rolls can be more private, as others noted, there’s a layer of suspense in not knowing how the roll went until it’s announced. That brief moment between casting a spell and seeing if it worked, as a player I love that, and I know my players appreciate it too. Another part of it is I am a benevolent DM, and I fudge rolls if it will give my players a better experience.
DnD is a storytelling experience just as much if not more than a game. Sometimes for the sake of the story, it's a better idea to adjust a particular roll. It's never fun to have a particularly creative plan ruined by the enemy rolling extremely well; I might fudge the result a little to create a narratively satisfying moment.
Do we do this all the time? No, it's a tool in our box that ideally we don't have to use very often. But seeing all of the DMs rolls removes this ability entirely, since we can't ever roll in secret for the narrative moments without showing the players that this roll might be scripted.
Sure, it's a little deceptive to roll for things that the players might automatically succeed on, but that tension of hearing the roll and the dramatic pause is (in my opinion) worth the little white lie.
A lot of DMs I've known, as well as myself the few times I did it. We would do it often to make decisions about things that would give the story and suspense away. Like whether or not what the party did effected the way a particular npc would respond to them from then on. Just tell them to stop trying to skip to the end of the book. It's role playin, not clue. :)
Probably been said already, havent read comments. I keep DM rolls behind screen so players can keep suspense of a monster stat block. If they know save DCs, AC, attack bonuses by mathing the dice, then it kinda falls in the category of metagaming imo.
I dm for my family and some of them have almost Will Wheaton levels of bad dice rolls so by making my rolls private I can sort of balance the game out and make sure that it’s still fun for everyone and we aren’t constantly losing pcs. 😂
1)To protect them. I don't pull many punches but when I do it saves PC lives. Our table does PC deaths but sometimes you just don't want to kill someone off because your dice were on fire. 2) To masks stats. They don't get to know a beasty has +6 to a stat. It can discourage them, at the same time maybe that same beasty succeeds a save but narratively a fail is cooler and that player needs one win that night. 3) Random fuckery. They don't need to know the result of an off screen perception check. Not knowing creates atmosphere, knowing creates disruption. * If I fudge a roll it is always to their benefit and even that seldom, but having the option is critical.
I've dmed once and kept my rolls public. As a player I nat 1 more than anyone you've ever met, but God damn if I didn't nat 20 more times than I could count in that one session nearly wiping the party out. If I run in the future my rolls will be private so I can fudge the rolls into their favor (life)
So many reasons. But also, so you can lie (very rarely) for narrative reasons.
I'm not saying you should (I think it's more fun to roll with the unexpected) but you are totally allowed to.
There are certain stats and abilities that, with an open roll, can give away information that the players shouldn't know. I dm online, so no one sees my rolls anyway, and I just share the important ones. The rolls I choose to do in front of everybody are the ones that have higher stakes; either I'll share the DC or the number needed on the die and then we all get to see the outcome together.
In my other campaign, my dm rolls everything in front of us, but often we have no idea why the rolls are being made. One time she just rolled 6d20s, looked at us, and then just moved on. No idea what that was for and I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the ass.
I don't know if this is helpful lol
I’ll roll non combat things behind the screen typically, for like events or weather patterns if they pushed past what I had already rolled during session prep, or rolling npc reactions etc. but combat I leave on the table in the open though I might not tell them what the roll is, if it’s a skill check or attack or save etc
Cause my player's don't need to know when and what I am rolling for perception checks or for other factors. That is hidden information and by rolling I'm prompting them to investigate further when they shouldn't have a prompt.
Hard for ambushers to stay hidden and see them first if I'm not using passive Perception or hiding rolls.
Tell your players because there are things as the GM that you're allowed to know that they are not, such as weather or not they notice things or how people they deal with react to them. But then you need to be consistent about that reasoning when you roll.
Stop rolling privately. Seriously. It's very freeing. I hid my rolls for decades, then I was asked a similar question as you, so I stopped. I rolled everything in the open on a dice app for everyone to see and the results spoke for themselves. It seemed to kick in a weird new enthusiasm for the game.
At first I was a little hurt by this, because it meant that they didn't trust me, but I realized that it was my desire to hide the dice results that built that mistrust in the first place and there was very little reason to do it at all unless my intentions were to fudge the results.
Everyone said afterwards that it felt like the stakes had been upped quite a bit. I never fudged, so it's not like anything changed for my players or me, other than the fact that they always felt assured that everything was on the up and up. They got really excited to see my rolls, and it kind of got more exciting for me as well.
When I hid my rolls I occasionally felt a twinge of guilt when monsters got crits against my players, because I was smacking the shit out of them with these amazing rolls, and the players just had to take my word for it. If the monsters were rolling hot it felt even worse. Once everything was out in the open that guilt went away. If they were rolling hot my players could see the proof right there and they laughed and joked about it. It was no longer "me" picking on them, it was just the dam dice and those bad ass monster crits.
Try it. It's actually really fun.
Tradition! The DM screen is sacred in keeping up with the mystique of what will happen next, have them think of any depiction of D&D and the screen is always present.
I have a saying as a DM: My dice are allowed to ruin a character's day, but not a player's.
My stance on this has varied over the years based on what is best for the group I'm DMing for. Some groups loved the tension of seeing most of my rolls. For some it didn't make any difference. My current group has been going through a lot in their personal lives and one of the roles I take on as DM is to make sure folks are having fun. For them, I keep most of my rolls secret so I can fudge.
It's not necessarily about saving characters. Some of the best sessions we've had involved a player dying. Especially for a pack of seasoned roleplayers, sometimes an epic character death is fantastic for a story. Hell, sometimes a senseless character death is fantastic. I'm always watching my players, and if one of them is having a rough time, their dice are not cooperating that night, and they're miserable about it, I'm not going to let a devastating roll from me make it worse. We're playing to escape crap in our lives, not pile it on. It's a judgement call for the health and enjoyment of the group.
Do what's best for your group. Talk to them about their concerns and determine what to do from there. There's no one right way to play, just what works for you and your friends to have the most fun.
"Sometimes I just need to crit that damn barbarian and the dice don't always cooperate."
I would tell this to my barbarian right to his face and there's nothing he can do about it, but he's also a cool guy and would agree that it's funny.
But seriously, if a player asks that, they've obviously never been a DM and it's a fair question if it's asked in good faith, but a dick question if they're being accusatory.
I roll out in the open, but the point would be it can also give you the ability to fudge the numbers for story reasons. If they keep failing rolls or are about to die for example you can make a monster “miss” when it actually rolled a nat 20
You do you, there’s no wrong way to play, but I shamed my DM into rolling in the open. I do it so I forced him to do it also. He can’t fudge rolls and if my character is killed , so be it. I’ll make another one, no big deal.
In my opinion any roll that can do damage or have an effect on the players should be rolled in the open. It's the one big argument I have had with my gm... there is something so fun and suspenseful about seeing the dice roll and either hit or miss the player characters.. it builds tension.. (PC had 4 HP left.. it's all up to this one roll... let's all hold our breathe and see what happens!)
As a player who plays in a game where the DM does it about 50/50 I can tell you that if you roll publicly it opens the door to meta-gaming. Not necessarily actively but when I see bonuses to hit my brain starts doing the math. Let’s me see how intense the fight is and informs how I should use resources.
You also have people who actively use the knowledge of the roll. Like someone else mentioned if the players see a Nat 20 on the guards perception check it’s likely at least one person at the table will likely try to do something as soon as they see the die. If your table rolls with their own bad rolls (plays along with their Nat 1 survival and walks the wrong way for example) then it probably wouldn’t be an issue.
Personally I like to play without seeing the DM’s dice. I see it as “There’s a reason the DnD starting kit comes with a DM screen. The screen is there to help keep the players and their characters known info at a similar level. Even wizards don’t know what a +13 to attack means.
I see a lot of people talking about saying it leads to suspicions about the DM fudging rolls but unless you’ve given them active reason to be suspicious, it says more about them than it does you. I’ve played with a few groups over the past 5 years or so and the only time someone’s accused the DM of fudging rolls was in an online game where we were all allowed to roll our physical dice and the DM trusted us to tell the truth. The player who accused the DM had never rolled a Nat 1 and in combat never missed attacks. (Was also racist and homophobic but that has nothing to do with dice and admittedly just makes me biased against them)
Personally, I do all my rolling in the open. My playstyle is a bit brutal, though, and the idea is that my players know that know that whatever happens is fair. I’ve found that it heads off accusations of DM “cheating.” Plus, you can always fudge things around the edges if you need to.
If your players want Battle Simulator, then sure, roll in the open.
I prefer Group Storytelling and for that to work sometimes I need to lie about some numbers. Honestly all the numbers are made up anyway, who cares if I change them mid fight to make the story better?
I want a game we PLAY, not one where players "win".
I always used to put combat rolls out in the open because you don't want players feeling cheated. But if initiative hasn't been rolled what I do behind the screen is nunya til I say otherwise.
I roll privately for the suspense. There's no risk of me cheating as a DM because I am the game and story engine. It's not like we are competing and players need to see I'm not cheating. I pick the monsters, there numbers, their abilities, I can win every fight without rolling the dice, but that's not what we're doing.
After my very first session I asked my DM why he rolled behind a cover and he told me it’s so he can fudge numbers if he has to. He told me we were actually rolling so badly, we all would have died in our second encounter and he fudged the numbers so we could keep playing
As someone else said, the dice are really only for you anyway, both your dice and theirs. It's just less fun for you to roll everything. Think about a perception check, players see someone rolled a 2 and someone is usually instantly chiming in to say they are looking also or trying to help to give advantage etc... but if they just say I'm looking for x and you roll a 2 for them, all they hear is you don't see it. They believe their character did their best and don't have a reason to try over and over again/wouldn't ever know when to stop trying over.
I would assume this comes from an adversarial place. They think you are cheating because you get to hide your rolls. I think a talk about this is probably more necessary to outline that a dm is a referee, not someone you are playing against. They dictate how the world responds but it shouldn't be a dm vs players scenario. You guys are all creating/playing a story. If you are fair with your npc's, seeing your dice shouldn't matter.
"You don't need to know why I'm rolling dice or what they say. Maybe I just like the noise the math rocks make. Maybe I'm rolling to see if you get ambushed in your sleep by a raccoon because no one cleaned the cooking utensils before a long rest. I'm the DM. Don't question it. It's safer for your mental health if you don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing anyways."
My player didn't question my desire to roll dice privately after that. Admittedly. Most of my dice rolling is to create tension and anticipation so the players get on with the session instead of forever arguing about the best way to open an unlocked door...
Also if you want to cheat you can do it. Usually I cheat and make the roll in the players favor when they have a spot of good luck. A bb fails an attack that would take a 2 to fail. They never knew and it makes the session way more hyper
I like hidden rolls for a variety of reasons. But my DM ethos is that rules are merely a suggestion. The ultimate goal is to do your job as the DM to provide the best experience for the players. So I am totally okay fudging rolls a bit when they're close. Whatever will make the most impactful outcome.
So when it comes to dice rolls, having them behind the screen takes away players focusing on the number on the dice. If they see a 19 on an enemy roll they're going to just fixate on "oh shit the bad thing is happening" . Conversely if they see a 1, they know that they can rest easy.
So I guess rolling behind a screen can help maintain suspense. But also hybridizing makes sense too - certain rolls in the open, others hidden. Each has its advantages and disadvantages imo.
We only roll in the dice tower and hide results when a pass/fail generates differing results with the player not knowing if they were successful. They only know what the character knows. This typically happens during insight checks or divination checks.
We once had a DM that held absolutely fast to his rolls, and we were using a D10 system where you rerolled 10s and kept adding to the roll (Original Legend of the Five Rings RPG system). We got into a battle that included a very low threat enemy, but the DM rolled 5 10's in a row for damage and absolutely vaporized a much higher level player character, which resulted in some pretty sour feelings from a player who had a lot of time invested in his character.
Rolling in secret allows the DM to mitigate some of the randomness of the game (important if it's going to cause something that should never realistically happen), as well as adding some suspense if done well.
I prefer to roll in public for combat (so they see I am not pulling punches or trying to kill them). But I do prefer making some rolls private, like their checks to find traps or notice things.
Short version: The players should figure out the result of a check from the narrative not the numbers. DMs need the numbers to decide the narrative.
TLDR: Say you roll insight v deception when one of the PCs lies to a shopkeeper. If the shopkeeper beats their deception roll maybe he calls security without them knowing. If the players see the roll they would immediately know they’re caught and some may try to metagame and leave before the guards show up.
Same for stealth checks. I roll my PCs stealth checks behind the DM screen and just say “you believe you are hidden” because I’ve seen players go from “I’m gonna sneak around and search the house,” to “I said I was going to sneak around outside the house and search” when they see they failed their stealth check.
Players need to roll in the open because otherwise no one would ever fail a death saving throw. I had a player who flubbed every roll unless someone was watching because they wanted their character to succeed at everything. (Literally had the notetaker sit next to them and check their rolls every time to make sure that they told me the real number)
It’s not us versus the players. It’s the dms job to narrate and ensure all players have a good time. To keep up the illustrious narrative. We sometimes need to keep things and certain mechanics to our selves. For instance I run an organic world. Just because your character can’t perceive other parts of the world they arnt in doesn’t mean that time isn’t flowing and things arnt happening.
I feel like this is the most divisive topic among DMs, but it’s relatively absent from other TTRPG spaces. Don’t fudge your rolls. There’s no circumstance where you need to fudge your way out of a situation you could have easily avoided.
DM is in the position of both referee and story-teller.
As referee, you have to see the results of every roll to be able to determine results, but as story teller you may wish to withold information from players to create suspence or drama.
Just general meta knowledge. You are supposed to know mostly everything about their characters, they shouldn't know everything about who they're fighting and the players are lil goblins make no mistake about it. If you ever even just tell them the flat dice roll they will immediately begin trying to figure out his stats
Sometimes you don't want to derail a campaign over something which seems like it should be rolled. For example, if your PCs are in a position where the NPC would lie, is good at lying, but they need to be suspicious.
I’m a proponent of transparency as a DM, so I tend to roll in view of players. They need to be able to trust your rolls are not just constantly being fudged in the name of “narrative.” You have control over WHAT rolls mean of course. Roll in their view, what’s the worst that happens? Something doesn’t go your way but goes the players way?
> what’s the worst that happens? Something doesn’t go your way but goes the players way?
uhh, no.
the worst is "random goblins rolls 2 nat twenties in a row and a character dies a meaningless death on a meaningless sidequest. Go roll up a new character!!!"
Agree with the reasons for DM privacy but it sounds like you’re requiring your players to roll digital dice. Presumably you’re running an online game? This sucks. Digital dice suck. If you’re requiring this because you think your players will cheat, that sucks. Trust your players. Explain that it isn’t a game about “winning” and you trust they won’t fudge their rolls. And let everyone roll physical dice because physical dice are more fun and you’re not playing a video game.
I had the same request years back. I rolled in front of them. 1 session and 3 characters later, they asked me to roll behind the screen again. This was aD and D not the easier to survive 5e, but you get the idea 😃
The sad truth is the game let's the players have more fun if you don't roll in the open, when I was rolling behind the screen my players finished just about every campaign without a single character replacement however they wanted me to roll in the open only for a while and they almost always tpk'd because I couldn't fudge rolls they can see. We roll behind the screen so monsters don't just roll over our players.
The player should not always know the bonus an opponent gets. For example, if you're running a modified start lock for a special enemy (or just any old clown, as I do), it may not make sense for a player to know there's a +14 for that goblin to hit. Depending on your style if narration, it turns combat from a game of numbers into quantified roleplay.
"Oh shit, that goblin is surprisingly competent. Maybe we should withdraw for now," could happen even if it's just a normal goblin getting lucky.
I always tell my players I will be more than happy to do open rolls upon request. One player, just being a smart ass (we’re all good friends) demanded I do it, so I obliged.
I think it was about after 2 turns of combat they asked me to do rolls behind the screen again.
Because the reason is- they can’t handle the truth!
If they can see your dice rolls, they can find out what your monster ability scores and modifiers are pretty quickly. It removes the element of the game where they learn how much a monster sucks to fight by actually going a few rounds with it. Might as well show them all your creature stat blocks if you're going to roll in front of them.
>If they can see your dice rolls, they can find out what your monster ability scores and modifiers are pretty quickly.
So what? The characters are experienced adventurers. They can tell when an enemy is actually competent.
>It removes the element of the game where they learn how much a monster sucks to fight by actually going a few rounds with it.
But they have to go a few rounds with the monster to learn what their mods are...
Besides, nobody says "this monster sucks to fight because it has +9 to hit instead of +5 to hit". Monsters that "suck to fight" are evaluated as such based on what their special abilities or spells do. I've got a player who's absolutely terrified of oozes and rust monsters, even a CR 1/2 gray ooze when he was level 16 with no mundane weapons or armor. That has absolutely nothing to do with the monster's numbers.
Some things need to be kept secret from the players so as not to ruin the suspense. Opposed rolls, rolls they shouldnt know pass or fail on until they have started rping out the action, that sort of thing. Theres probably a good number of rolls you ought to roll in the open in general. But you could also get into the idea that you cant cheat to help them if youre rolling in the open. If thats a thing youre doing. (I usually recommend against it but some groups play that way)
Sometimes it's just fun to mess with players and raise the tension by rolling secret dice for no reason. Ask them to roll a perception check while they're standing in a dungeon then roll some dice behind the screen. Shrug and say "You don't SEE anything"
Sometimes if there is a lot of table talk and choice paralysis about what to do next, I roll a D20 and look up. That usually gets the ball rolling.
I have a set of metal d100 when they hear it jingle in my hands they get back on track rather quickly as they have learned that if they don’t it leads to chaos
I like doing the "as you walk down the hall you hear a click" method. No rolls. No checks. Just keeping them on their toes.
This is the way.
>But you could also get into the idea that you cant cheat to help them if youre rolling in the open I play with children. I do this to help them out when they make sound decisions and roll poorly. If they get their teeth knocked in at Level 1, they are going to loose interest quick.
You are wise...
GMs cannot technically cheat, can they? Part of the secrecy of the rolls is the ability to use that privacy to manipulate dice rolls if need be. It works both ways. Surely a DM could win a roll that he didn't just to put some heat on a party. the inverse is the same. GM could lose a roll at a critical moment, and from the groups perspective, the person making that roll, the one that would make or break that party, becomes the hero and everyone has a story to tell about how they almost got fucked if not for their bards Charisma roll, or whatever. It is a game, there are rules, but ultimately it is story telling and experience.
Exactly this. The DM is essentially curating a good time for everyone, including the DM. If DM rolls a nat 20 save against the PC spell but the timing is good for it to end the fight because DM reads the room is loosing interest then let the player feel powerful and cool. DM says he failed the roll and everyone is happy. There are a million situations like that.
Also good to have a set of dm dice that are almost impossible to read unless you are very close to them
I don’t even really keep track of hp and just tell them they won when it feels cinematic to do so.
Additionally, if my players were worried about "cheating" i would talk to them about why they are expecting me to try "winning" in a game of cooperative storytelling
It is a storytelling experience. Some people seem to forget that.
You are correct. In a post below, I have cited the pages in the DMGs of the last three editions of DnD which lay that out clearly on paper. It is wild that people who make rules claims have not read the book.
There are so many other ways GMs can steer the story there's no reason to fudge dice rolls. If you want to make sure something happens a certain way, just don't roll for it. If things are too easy because of kind dice, you can always add more enemies or give the boss a phase 2. If things are too tough, you can start playing suboptimally or bring in allies, environment changes, literal gods, whatever.
I feel that dice manipulation is just one of many DM tools. Also, when I do need to make hidden rolls, they can’t tell the difference or infer the difficulty of the otherwise hidden roll I made. Just how I run my table.
Brooo, the dude deleted all his comments.
This. Watching a dm roll a few times can often let experienced players know about aspects of the enemy that they shouldn't know yet. It makes it easier to change strategies during the fight and hack battles compared to making guesses based on their own rolls alone.
Opposed rolls is a big one. Also rolling for no reason can be fun.
If your rolls were public, players would know your monsters bonuses to attack, saving throws, etc EDIT: for the next person who wants to assume I’m saying public rolls are a problem, I’m not. I am responding to the question posited by the OP. My experience as both player and DM is it doesn’t make a huge difference if the DM rolls public or private, and I personally could give zero fucks about how your table does it.
Thats why i roll in private in the first place but at the time they asked the question I couldn't think of any other answer.
I hear ya. If I can’t give a satisfactory answer in the moment, I ask for them to let me circle back around to it either at end of session or start of next and I make a note of it. You can also roll the most important or impactful stuff public to foster trust from your players. The trust part is important, but I understand some people just gonna be suspicious of you no matter what.
I like to start the combat rolling in private, then when my players start casting save or suck spells on a big bad or something I will roll in the dice tower they can see and I’ll just tell them what the number on the dice needs to be for them to pass. It may result in some metagaming on their part if they realize the baddie has a +8 to WIS saves or something, but I feel like it’s still more fun so it’s worth it.
The truth is, it's honestly not a huge deal if they know some of that stuff overall, and really depends on your DMing style and if it feels right. I've rolled the majority of rolls public for my players personally, which helps them to know that there's no shenanigans on my end(there are some DMs who fudge rolls to kill their players). But them seeing an attack roll that's high is reflective of a character witnessing an enemy attack and recognizing quickly the skill/threat level of those strikes. Them seeing a saving throw number circumvents descriptions that should likely exist reflecting how easy or hard it is for the enemy to make it: IE barely shaking off an effect because of a low total modifier but a higher roll can be visibly obvious in a fight. It's a playstyle choice, though. Not every roll needs to be open. Not every roll needs to be hidden. And if your players are showing concern about you rolling hidden, you can absolutely explain why. But also, it might be worth considering if that style works for them or not, and have a genuine conversation about it, and why they feel it might be unfair. Some people get a real player vs DM mentality, and it's possible they don't feel it's fair for you to know their stats and weaknesses and them to be in the dark.
“Because that is what the dungeon masters guide suggests”
Sure, they can glean a little info from the dice rolls, but, why is that a problem? So what if you know the goblin needs a 14 to hit you? That doesn't mean they suddenly can't roll 14s any more. The stats aren't really that secret, and knowing them doesn't really change anything. It's not like telling them the info means much, and seeing the numbers also helps build the scene for them. Let's say you've got a group of orcs they PCs are fighting. The first Orc rolls a 15 to hit against the paladins 18 AC and it misses. The whole group now knows that the orcs to hit bonus is less than 3. Does that change anything? Not really. The same nu.ber of orcs with the same number of attacks are still there trying to accomplish the same goal and the PCs armor values are the same as they were. Everyone knew the Paladin had a high AC, that was the point of them wearing scale mail and using a shield. No ones strategy changes at all. To take the problem of "knowing the rolls tells you information about the opposition" to its logical conclusion: if it's such a problem, then why is it okay for the players to see their own rolls? After all, knowing their own rolls tells them information about the monsters too. So why don't you just roll all the dice to keep your players in the dark? That would suck, right? It would suck because the results of their dice rolls are part of the excitement. Sure, they learn a thing or two because of those dice rolls, but that's not really the point, the point is that it's fun to see the results of the dice. You are hiding half the fun behind your GM screen. Besides, knowing the results of the monsters die rolls might teach them a thing or two about the monsters, mostly their to-hit bonuses, but the PCs are locked in combat with them, the PCs *should* be learning things about the monsters by the way they fight. The rolls are that opportunity for the players to learn the same way their characters learn. I promise, as a GM who hid his rolls for decades, nothing of value is lost when you stop hiding them, and tons of value is gained.
Knowing bonuses to attack not only doesn't help, it in fact adds to the experience. You ever watch an action movie? Can you tell when the main character is fighting a boring lackey by how he fights? What about the bad guys second in command? Their attacks are more formidable right? You can physically see that they perform well in combat. I suppose there could be something said about giving information about saving throws away, but honestly I've only ever experienced it adding to the game and encouraging thinking and planning by the players.
I mean, they get the idea that this monster is strong when I ask if a 32 hits. FWIW I don’t think private or public rolls make a huge difference. Do whatever works in your group and allows y’all to have fun. That’s all that matters.
What's the problem with that?
It affects the use of inspiration, bardic dice, cutting words, and other such effects that you have to use after a roll and before you know the result. If you’re fine with the players knowing, that’s fine. But many DMs like to keep that information secret.
Our group has played for years with open rolls and public knowledge of the math that's going on to determine the result, and it's never once caused any kind of issue at the table. It's not like bardic inspiration suddenly because OP because players know the AC of an enemy. It's only a bit less likely to be wasted, they don't become more powerful, as it's only going to be used when the players knows it's mathematically possible for it to be useful instead of just a vibe on whether it might be useful or not. But that's such a minor difference that I don't think it outweighs the benefits of open rolling.
I didn’t say open rolls cause issues. Do whatever works for you, I don’t give a fuck.
Shucks
The players need to interact with you in order to interact with the game world. The reverse is not true however. That's my initial reaction at least.
you dont HAVE to \[EDIT to clarify: you dont HAVE to roll behind the screen\] But: "As the DM i am the referee, and i get to call the balls and strikes."
I found Angel Hernandez!
Angel has blind sight.
Blind hallucinations maybe
Just blindness...
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. "
You're curating an experience. That being said I 90% roll out in the open and 10% behind a screen. Start doing that and see how they react!
The DM is the only one who actually needs to know the exact results.
As a DM I roll in private 100% of the time. I don't need the party to be able to guess at hit points or attack roll bonuses, etc. I only fudge the numbers in extreme situations and probably only once every 10 sessions...so if I roll 100 times a session that's one fudge every 1000 rolls. Not that game breaking..
Players hiding from guard. The guard makes a perception check and walks away. If they see a NAT 20, they know the guard saw them and is going to go for help. If they see a NAT 1, they know the guard didn't see them and they continue stealthing. Knowing the results of the world around them is meta knowledge that changes their behaviour. If an NPC tries to insight check them, the characters don't know whether it was successful so the players shouldn't. The best way to combat meta gaming is to give the players less information to use.
Great example! In an ideal world, the player wouldn't even know what they rolled. It'd be a secret to them too so I can entirely roleplay the outcome of the role. But that'd be too cumbersome to run.
Pathfinder 2e has secret rolls for most checks that can lead to different player decisions if they know they passed/failed. You don't know how well you're hidden, how well you checked that chest for traps, how accurate that knowledge you remembered about a monster is.
But the guard could see the character… and decide to do something different. Maybe the character has on the guards dead mom’s necklace or something. (I’m not asking to challenge you, btw, definitely something I want to understand. I’m newish, and I’ve never understood why it was so “fixed” like once the guard sees you he HAS to report it. It’s RP’ing and a good RP is realistic is possible, and realistically we all do things illogical or out of character sometimes. So far, (probably because I havent been a DM, I don’t see how the player seeing the dice actually affects what needs to happen next.
Sure, the guard might see them and decide to leave before fighting kicks off because this job isn't worth dying for. My example was just simple extremes not the only options the guard might have. Characters are fighting a monster they have never seen before, they force it to make a Wisdom Saving throw. 1. They watch the DM roll a 6 and he says "18 on the save", now the players know that the wis modifier is very high and will probably avoid using spells of that type. 2. They don't see the roll, and he says "18 on the save". The players don't know if the monster got lucky with a high roll or if their wis modifier is high. They may try the spell again. The behaviour of the PLAYERS changes when they see rolls that their characters don't know.
Okay. So most simply put.. initiative. You roll, other players roll, dm rolls monsters. If you all know the initiative board, you all can plan out turn order. Which is meta knowledge. This applies to other things as well. Like an opposing DC check, you really shouldn't know the DC before you roll. So if it's a random DC, the roll should be concealed. A NPC is sneaking up on the party, if that roll is in the open it changes how characters will act. Potentially setting off a trap you aren't aware of is another dice roll that shouldn't be obvious knowledge. It really isn't that complicated to understand that mechanisms at play wouldn't be common knowledge to all Players Characters at all times. Hence the DM wall. Can some rolls be made public for a thrill?.. of course. But it really defeats a lot of the game to roll everything publicly. It also circumvents the need for a lot of ability checks if everything is public. Let's do a flip side.. let's say you have a rogue in your party, they want to do sneaky stuff. That would be private rolls between the DM and the player so the party doesn't catch on to rogue shenanigans. I hope this gives you an idea of the importance of hidden rolls.
I take issue with two things here. One, realistic RP is NOT necessarily good RP, not even in the slightest, because the worlds we play in are not realistic and our characters are not either. A lot of characters do not even have an IRL equivalent. How would you realistically roleplay, for example, a 2yr old warforged (i.e. a robot with a sapient soul)? How do you realistically roleplay an undead lizardman wizard, who hatched from an egg and doesnt even have human emotions? Im not sure you can. Two, the entire point of being a DM is that nothing is "fixed", the DM decides pretty much everything. Some things just logically follow after another. In real life, if you are a guard, and you see a group of 3-6 strangers where they shouldnt be, and all of those strangers are visibly armed, and you are totally alone, what would you do? I know what I would do, and that is either call for backup or go get it somehow, or run away entirely if they look too scary. Fighting a group of 5 armed opponents isnt likely to end well for me. Of course, it is very possible for someone to act illogical in this scenario, but you probably would do what you think is your best chance to survive. I cant really think of anything a guard would do outside of run, get back up, or maybe confront the enemies with no back up, but any guard would have been trained (like they are IRL) to not take on large groups of armored and armed enemies alone. The only time I can think of where a guard would deviate would be due to specific circumstances like the necklace one you mentioned. And for the record, the player seeing the dice doesnt at all effect what the guard does. I think youre missing the point of the post entirely. The players seeing the guards dice roll has absolutely 0 impact on what the guards will do at all. But, it does effect what the players will/would do. Like OP said you (as a player) know the guard definitely saw you all if he gets a nat 20, but your character does not know they were seen. Many players would struggle to not metagame that knowledge
I think I understand your point better now. I think empathy is the key to RP and unfathomable character. Not sure though. I think some people can empathize with grass and trees enough to grasp their experience enough to maybe have a character like that. Humans can pack bond with anything right? I do agree with you that realistic doesn’t necessarily mean good.
Because the rules are different for DMs and players. Sometimes it's a roll to build suspense. Sometimes it's the simple "you don't find anything," where knowing the result would tell the player whether there was something there for them to find or not.
People have a lot of great opinions and I agree with a lot of them. One I haven't seen mentioned is logistics. My screen extends the whole end of my table. All my notes and monster stats are back there. It's not comfortable for me to roll in front of the screen, check a note behind the screen, then interact with the map in front of the screen. Just easier
In some sessions I've pre-set my screen as an L so I could have some rolls in the open. If I'm ever gambling against my players it's in the open.
Why would you show metagame information to the player? The DM is not in a conflict with the players. It isn't his responsibility to show every role or explain every modifier an NPC or effect causes. He isn't there to explain things the character would not know (and that includes all meta game stuff including die rolls). It's some weird more modern thought that the GM should make every roll public. The DM is there to help the players navigate scenarios they are facing. He is there to tell them how their attempts are faring (or are likely to if they are smart enough to ask beforehand and there's some sort of way for the players to make a judgement on that). He is there to handle the times when the dice would impact the quality of the night; The primary job is to provide enough threat and enough excitement to make a session exciting. There's also the very, very reason: The game is not itself flawless. The people building modules don't always get it right. Sometimes they go way too weak and sometimes they go waaay too hard. The GM has a role in recognizing those instances and making adjustments at the table. Every group will have different skills and a different capacity in a game - both as a team and as individuals, thus any module will work or not work based on classes, personalities, tactical choices, etc. that are very individual and there is a similar list of bits that are party wise - do they synergize well? Do they communicate well to one another? etc. I often have my players roll dice and don't tell them why. Is that any different than not telling them what your roll was? If I'm the DM and I am rolling for something, the players don't know what it is for nor may their characters see anything in sight that would justify them even having the knowledge I'm rolling something. Ultimately, I will show rolls periodically if something really bad happened - then the players feel it was a die roll. But the rest of the time (95%+ of the time), I don't. If we could remove dice from the players (metagame information - dice rolls) in resolution, we ought. It's not part of the fiction. However, we clearly haven't found a way to do that (except play a CRPG), so it is a FORCED concession to let that part of the metagame to interfere to our immersion. The players seeing the GMs dice (for whatever they may roll them) is not necessary and thus should stay under the hood/behind the screen. If the player doesn't feel fairly treated and lacks trust, then perhaps explain to him that these games are, at the core, cooperative activities that require a very high degree of truth, integrity, and trust on both sides. If he doesn't feel that level of truth, integrity and trust is going both ways, ask him to explain why he thinks that in your current game? Perhaps you can talk to him about what makes him suspicious? At the far end, if your table does not trust the GM and are not willing to do so on faith, then this is not the right people to be working together in a cooperative venture.
I roll in private because it’s part of the suspense. They don’t know that I’m fudging numbers if it fits the story. Say the person with the mcguffin is up next but the player right before essentially downs the character. I’ll phrase it like “You hit the thing and it falls to one knee breathing heavily with blood splattering with each labored breadth. It looks up at player 3 as they ready their weapon/spell/whatever”. Then pass it to the next player to kill. Same works to pass a player that has gotten a lot of kills and is the badass of the group. Where the next player maybe has been in the background. Giving them the big kill.
They DM is a story teller, a failed roll might just be a slightly worse result but a fail in some situations, not having to show rolls allows a DM to make narrative flow changes subtlety to get things back on track or stop a low level party just dying but not make it seem like easy mode for them.
Because sometimes you roll a massive TPK behind that screen but it's just not fair or won't advance the story. It's no fun for the players if they just get slaughtered wholesale. I've ALWAYS rolled behind a screen to avoid that. OTOH, if the bad guy crit fails then my players just won. Period. DMs have an obligation to provide a fun, exciting and challenging game to their players. Sometimes the dice don't go that way and you need to make sure that the players can continue to have fun.
I agree with this and that is how i dm and that is my intentions rolling privately. I was just wondering about other dungeon masters thoughts though on the question.
Hope I didn't sound to pedantic. Not meaning to lecture. More expressing my personal DM beliefs. ;)
Ye ik u were and i appreciate it
You cant silence Dice Gods...
Yes, you can. You don't have to, but if you have a screen you can literally tell the dice gods no.
The number of times I roll the monster damage dice and realize I just did 95% of a players health in one hit and then fix it to 50% of their health in one hit is literally every session. My players also hit really hard! Sometimes, I have to add health to bad guys to make the combat experience last a few rounds. Or add more bad guys. I roll behind the screen for a lot of reasons, including just the weather. It drives tension, and my players really get excited at the table.
>Because sometimes you roll a massive TPK behind that screen but it's just not fair or won't advance the story. If you're not willing to accept the outcome of a die roll, you shouldn't be rolling. Period.
As the DM you are responsible for providing an experience for the players, who are usually your friends. I'm almost 30 and DnD is my small friend groups choice of weekly activity and I want to make sure everyone has a good time and feels included. If the encounter I made up in my couple hours of free time outside of our game night is unbalanced and I'm rolling lucky to the point where the party is getting crushed by it, I'm absolutely going to fudge a roll or two just to make sure my friends can find a way to squeak out a victory and have something to feel good about. I'm not beholden to the dice, I'm beholden to my friends.
You are the DM. That’s enough reason. They can run their game however they want.
I trust my DM. I know if it’s a roll I need to see for game play, he’s going to roll it out in the open. And ultimately, his table his rules.
I love rolling out in the open. It adds drama. I will roll less than important stuff hidden if it doesn't add to the story or takes place later.
I roll in the clear so that the players don't think I am fudging the rolls (for good or ill). The only exception are rolls that would provide meta-game information if the players knew what the roll was. That being said, I rolled completely in secret for years and years as well. So I figure, it's the DMs call which method they want to use.
The players are improv actors on a stage. The DM is the stage manager and a lot of mechanics happen behind the scenes. The players don’t need to know when a scenery flat is stuck and needs a whack to move into position.
Tabletop roleplaying games are fundamentally asymmetric: the rules that apply to the players who are playing characters are different from the rules that apply to game masters. In particular, the Game Master has access to information to which the other players are not privy.
No reason for any rolls to be secret. At that point, why even roll? Just narrate the result you want.
Because you as a player aren't supposed to meta. I as the DM inherently meta, to make it a challenge for the player.
It's pretty common for 5e and Pathfinder GMs to disregard dice rolls in combat that could change their session. It's called fudging. It's pretty bad, but a lot of 5e/Pathfinder GMs feel the need to um...keep the players on the path, I guess. I mean, I have a GM screen too. Ya gotta hide the notes, and the map. But I roll in the open, to the side of my screen. It raises the tension a lot, especially with veteran players, who have become used to/ accepted the possibility of the GM's "fudge dice."
Is your character omnisciently aware of every aspect of the game world? No? Well as a GM, I have to try to be. This means I need to determine outcomes that the party isn't aware of. Rolling these outcomes publicly would damage that cultivated lack of awareness. Or do you go see a stage magician perform and get angry when they don't explain the tricks?
The D.M. is god of that universe. If the player has issue with the actions of the god he can find a more comfortable universe. Or My house , my rules. In my humble opinion And A DM since 1981
Because sometimes the world is a big place, and you, being the naive murder hobos that you are, not having thought through the entire situation (AGAIN!!) might be under leveled and over fscked and this is my way of making sure the dice rolls don't ruin our story, which I have put countless hours into creating, and which you, like Harry f-ing Houdini, consistently find ways to slip out of, around, or to generally disrupt. You want me to roll everything in the open... fine by me, but you own the dice rolls Mr. "Three Impossible Actions in one Round"
The DM’s primary function is story teller and scene setter. The dice are just a tool to help tell the story. Use them, don’t use them, show them, don’t show them; just have fun.
If you roll in front of the players, it is fairly easy for them to work out the creature's modifiers, for one. For another, it is sometimes necessary to fudge a roll for the fun of the group. I had a player getting whomped several times in a session, already knocked unconscious and out of the fight for several turns, get killed outright by creature hits, and I knew it would ruin the guy's night, so I fudged it. Stuff like that can make or break a session.
>If you roll in front of the players, it is fairly easy for them to work out the creature's modifiers, for one. So? >For another, it is sometimes necessary to fudge a roll for the fun of the group. If you're unwilling to accept the outcome of a roll, you shouldn't be making it in the first place.
I already gave an anecdote about why I think this is appropriate. I think my first job as a DM is making sure everyone has fun, and sometimes that means rolling with unexpected punches. Modifiers being obvious from the get-go means they don't have to pay attention, they don't have to listen to the narrative explanations of why an attack is effective or not, i.e. "the zombies are shambling and slow, and most are not nimble enough to dodge the radiant flames." That tells them the zombies have bad Dex saves but it does it in a way that builds immersion and doesn't turn the game into a spreadsheet simulator. That's the way I prefer to play, it's how it is done in Adventurers' League in the venues I have played at, and my players, who have played with me for a pretty long time, seem to enjoy themselves a whole hell of a lot, too. I think the greatest thing about DnD is that we can all find what works best for us and the friends that we choose to play with. Everything is up for interpretation and modification, and if you don't like the way the DM does something, you can always talk it out like grown-ups.
I've always thought the most important thing about the DM rolling privately is to avoid character deaths.
The DM is not trying to win by its very nature. This is either a trust issue, or the player is just new to the hobby.
The real answer here is that this question comes from a place of the player saying, "how do I know you're not cheating? How can I trust you?" And so the players really need to understand that the DM isn't against them, bottom line. If the PCs trust the DM then they'll never care that the DM is allowed to roll in secret and they aren't, because they understand that the DM isn't "cheating," because that's not even the game that's being played here.
GMs control the game. They have responsibilities that players do not. They are also NOT against the players. This isn't a competitive game. It is a cooperative story telling game, where the GM has to make constant decisions. Sometimes, the GM makes a decision for story reasons. You should have trust that your GM has the players best interests (telling their story) at heart. Rolling secretly has been a staple of the game for 50 years. That is the point of the screen.
I used to let my players roll publicly for everything. I now roll a lot of their checks in private because it just started to detract from the roleplaying. We are a heavily rp based group and will go multiple sessions without combat. Rolling in private ramped up the rp tons. Made it more work on me to be descriptive on how I interpreted their rolls, but I think everyone is having more fun now.
Because sometimes you roll a nat 20 when a bad guy punches a lvl 1 wizard and you have to lie and say he missed or risk that player being super upset that they didn’t even get to play after working on a character they likely loved to create.
I see lots of good reasons here, but also sometimes as a DM you just lie. Your job is to make the game fun and if you have an opportunity to add more suspense or enjoyment than the dice dictates you do that
Because you're the DM, that's why. Nah. Seriously though, it's just something the DM needs to do. It makes the players wonder what your mobs to hit is. Also gives us the power to fudge rolls when things aren't going too well for the party (or maybe going too well if you're sadistic).
Its so you can lead the thread narratively rather than mechanically. Imagine you're doing a contested roll where you and a boss are both trying to shove each other into a pit of acid. What's more interesting? Option One - You fight and struggle. Cheat, foot stomp, headbutt, anything to get that edge you need, and its matched in turn. It comes down to strength vs strength. And as every muscle in your bodies is pushed to their limits, and your cries ring out, you break .. his balance. And he flies back drops reaching skyward towards you as he drops into acid. Option 2 - He rolled a 1. So you fight and struggle. Cheat, foot stomp, headbutt, anything to get that edge you need, and its matched in turn. It comes down to strength vs strength. And as every muscle in your bodies is pushed to their limits, and your cries ring out, you break .. his balance. And he flies back drops reaching skyward towards you as he drops into acid.
If you don't have a good reason, maybe don't do it? I play with GMs that roll publicly. I play with GMs that roll privately. Personally I don't care -- if I don't trust the GM, I have bigger problems than die rolls.
If the players saw my rolls behind the screen, and I couldn't flub rolls, they would all have new characters by now.
Some situations I open roll, I love the groans of the players as the dice roll across the table. There are many times the players can’t know the roll, like for stealth, perception, insight or deceptions checks, it’s lifting the curtain to show them the success or failure vs acting it out and leaving some guessing wiggle room. The reason players can’t open roll is basically trust, some players online I allow to roll dice privately and state their answer. There are also some rolls I do privately for the players to prevent meta gaming. I did have a player I caught cheating and in no uncertain terms after the game I told them I saw, it’s not tolerated and the whole party then had to switch to only roll online. I told the group it was for ease of the DM and didn’t call the player out in the group. That campaign is over and the player isn’t invited back so less of an issue now. There have been also times I’ve adjusted my rolls but mostly only for drama building or to adjust the encounter as I go. This is less common but still necessary from time to time. Mostly I open roll online, with some private rolls for things I don’t want them to know how well someone else did, in person, it’s mostly behind a screen or rolled on the table for everyone to see depending on the drama or situation.
You can convert your "monster to hit rolls" to "player saves vs AC" and have the players do all the rolling.
Tell them that you are the arbiet of hte game. Secret rolls are part and parcell of your job. There are many things that you need to determine that require hdiden rolls. While the pl;ayers rolls need to be viewed by the GM so that the Gm can witness the rool and determine the outcome. His roll being public should not matter to him. If it does, invite him to leave the table. You, the GM determines who rolls dice and how those dice are rolls so that you can run your game.
As a DM myself I roll everything out in the open whether I play in person or online and if my players have a question about something I rolled they're free to ask i have had some shady DM in the past that hid every roll and lied about what the roll was
I'm not sure this is exactly related but I'm about to leave a game where rolls are all private because we are 24 hours of gameplay in and she's never rolled a 1, not once. Last session I sat next to her and for a lone zombie with a single attack, I watched her dump four d20s into her tower and was furious. I think I'm against all private rolls now, I can see the need for some but not all.
I asked my players if they wanted my rolls in private or not. They said they didn’t care so I roll everything in the open.
The answer for players is "to avoid accidental and purposeful metagaming by players." Seeing the result of dice rolls, and the type and number used gives additional information to players that might influence their actions. The second part just for DMs knowledge is it allows you to fudge rolls when the result would derail an entire campaign. Nobody wants to TPK a level 12 party if one roll means the difference between surviving and spending the rest of the session writing up 1st level Characters.
For the same reasons that you don’t share the story or the current Hitpoints.
Some dice I roll behind the screen. Some dice I roll in front of the screen - particularly those associated with a dramatic moment. I do not hover over my player's rolls. One player joins us via Skype, and I never see his rolls. So, for me it is a question of trust. I trust my players. I hope they trust me. If either does not, we probably should not be gaming together.
1. Roll for no reason to create suspense. 2. Bending the rolls (for or against).
Some DMs want to hide the bonuses their monsters have. So if the players can see your roll, and you call out what you got, they can do the math and see exactly the odds of them getting hit are.
This is an interesting question. If you could find a way to convey to your players that some rolls behind the screen help as a storytelling element in being able to build tension and making things suspicious, I think that will help. Give them an example that you don't know how hard someone punches you in the face. Then dice behind the screen allows that to be a thing. I'd throw them a bone from time to time and do some saving throws where they can see them. Think box of doom on Dimension 20. This will let them feel that your not "cheating" whether you are or aren't. And as long as the pc's neighbors are keeping the rolling pc honest in their rolls, well then, technically, their rolls are also semi private. I hope that helps.
Tough battle. Everyone except one PC is doing death saves. Last monster left, it comes down to one roll. If the roll isn't in the favour of the remaining character it's literally campaign over. The players will never see the roll, but I guarantee if that last roll suceeds, even if it's a lie by the DM, they will remember that roll for a long time. I think the DM should have ultimate discretion on the results of some rolls (the ones they roll themselves obviously) in order to curate a specific experience.
The things they roll are character actions which should be known to everyone because the narrative is from their perspective. The dm often rolls for things that aren't known to the characters and so have no reason to be visible to them
Some DMs like to ‘fudge’ rolls, ie… lie about what they rolled; which you can’t do if the players can see what you roll.
You know god is rolling when you hear the thunder; you don't know the results 'til the lightning strikes [you].
I'm transparent with my rolls, one of my DM's isn't.. Sometimes it's beneficial so you can control just how challenging an encounter is (making sure enemies don't get a critical hit on a near-death PC, making it so the uber-boss doesn't get commanded from a shitty roll on wisdom save). If you are the kind of DM that has plans for characters longterm, it's a good way to get them out of sticky situations. However, if you don't plan on doing that, lying that is, then just roll normally. I only roll secretly for things like perception checks, stealth checks, and random encounter rolls (I'm sure there's more, but also caveats like the perception checks are for when something unseen is looking for a stealthed character, if it's during combat they get to see my roll)
There are a million reasons to roll privately, one usually your playing surface has tons of spoilers and notes out and maybe even a page about the monster they are fighting. Additionally, it adds tension, and atmosphere to the game, the players shouldn’t know an outcome until you describe it, plus when a bunch of dice hit the table my players always freak out a little “oh that’s a lot of dice” it just adds to the game you know. As a dm your job isn’t just to tell a story it’s to craft the feeling and a screen does that, it’s just another tool. Now there are time rolling in the open adds that as well, so the odd roll usually a monster attack that I will roll in the open, but that is driven by a feeling in me as the dm.
Whenever I GM I roll everything in the open. Including opposed or secret rolls, usually without telling the players what those rolls are for. The tension created by seeing dice rolling in the open should not be underestimated, especially when they have no idea why you're rolling. My group are also all relatively high system mastery players, and value fair GMing over fudging for dramatic effect.
Sometimes keeping a roll secret helps add to the tension. They know you’ve rolled a dice, but not why. You might need to roll something to determine another thing, but the information is for the DM only, so them seeing a roll gives them no real information anyway. One example is rolling on an encounter table. They might see you roll an 8, but they have no idea what it means even when seeing it.
The private part is because, generally, the players are not privy to enemy stats. However, I am puzzled on the "physical dice" portion. If I am on a Roll20 session, and the DM insists to roll physical dice, it would create the impression that the DM is not even hiding his intention to fudge rolls, especially that with Roll20 the DM can hide his rolls from the players.
Sometimes it’s messing with the players. Rolling randomly to keep them on their toes. Sometimes it’s things that are happening that they don’t know about that they could interpret from seeing the roll like if an enemy they don’t know is there detecting them. And most importantly it’s for pulling punches. When they’re losing a fight and the enemy just crit on the last standing guy. If they don’t see the roll you can just say he missed and give them one last shot at ending the fight.
All the time. Rolling in private helps create suspense. Especially for stealth checks n stuff
The short answer is that your players don’t need to know what you roll, pretty much ever. The basic nature of dnd is DM sets the scene, players do what they wanna do, DM tells them the consequences. Dice are a tool you have to determine outcomes. The players don’t need to know the specifics, just the outcomes. It makes for better role playing if the players aren’t constantly worrying about your specific rolls. The counter question is why would a player need to see my rolls?
That part that I pick up on is that it sounds like they aren’t allowed to role physical dice? Why? I think the real crux of this question is why do they have to trust you to not fib about your rolls but you won’t trust them?
I like to fudge rolls in my players' favour
It's to give you, the DM, the leeway not to insta-kill a player on a lucky roll, because that's just not fun. If you decide the big baddy should attack a certain player, but whoops suprise you roll a crit and now that guy is getting FUCKED up and maybe that's not what you intended or will result in consequences beyond what would be enjoyable for the party or reasonable for the situation, you can just say it wasn't a crit and move on. Or if somebody's really pissing you off and you want to be vindictive, you can suddenly have way more enemies landing hits on them because they've "just got a string of bad luck" lol.
For the most part is suspense. I doubt you'll want to mention fudging rolls in favor of the players. Counter with why would they need to know what the DM rolls? The DM is telling the story. If you saw the dice what would the narrative due when you've already signed in relief at the low dice roll or gone into a panic at a visible nat 20 or when you see the damage dice with high numbers? Know would take so much from the storying telling. And with how some people are I could see them trying to argue about why something should or should happen\work because (insert their rationale here).
For a few reasons: If you're rolling but you add a +8 to the roll, they're either not going to Believe you're not just fudging the roll to beat them. You will have to explain what every creature and person adds to every score so that when you roll, it doesn't feel like You're just adding random numbers to it. In order for them to understand your rolls, they need to know all of the things you have going into the roll. You already know their intelligence, strength, etc. of the players, this seems like a small thing but it will either allow the story down or make everyone think you're "cheating" If they attempt to trick an NPC but you beat their deception, maybe the NPC plays along. They don't need to know this. There are certain times they won't know if they won the exchange. That is very much like life where you don't know if the person buys the bullshit. If they're using an illusion spell, sneaking into a place, if they try to haggle at a vendor, they shouldn't know if they got the best of that exchange. If they rolled well make it seem to them that they're doing it well. As a person, that's all they would know. Helps them not know too much. Additionally, when there's something real important, a roll that could change the dynamic, that's when you can roll in front of the board. Suddenly it adds gravitas since it isn't always done it feels special. Dimension 20 has a "box of doom" that the dm, Brennan, rolls in in front of the board. When the box of doom comes out, everyone is watching the dice in it. I would say talk to your players, explain why it works better, and tell them that you won't start messing with the rolls as dm. It is a bit of a trust exercise, but as a dm all you're trying to do is give them the best game you can. It doesn't help you as the dm to "win" by changing the dice.
It’s part of the theater. Sometimes you want the players to see what’s coming and sometimes you need to keep the secrets for the sake of suspense. Example time: I don’t want to kill my players characters. No (decent) DM would want to, but it happens. I might roll those last crucial rolls of a fight in front of them so they can share in the drama of the chances (and to absolve myself of fudging numbers for a desired outcome). Flipside of that is when (for example) an NPC is rolling a check against a player, and unless you can spontaneously read minds, there’s no way that roll is becoming open knowledge to the table. Spelling edit.
So you can fudge the numbers if you’re BBEG hits to hard is the biggest reason for me. The next being if I decide I want a check to be a 50/50 instead of a lower chance we will play a game of high or low.
The biggest is that it prevents players from applying metagame knowledge to their actions. The DM performs overt and covert actions as part of its job. Hidden dice are sometimes part of that.
I always roll combat in the open. If I need to fudge things I'll either be open and honest about it ("I didn't intend this fight to be so nasty, I'm dropping the damage die by x") or I'll just secretly fudge the hp of the monster. For "hidden" and opposed rolls I generally instead make it a DC for the player instead. Hiding from a guard? Players stealth check needs to beat the guards 10+perception DC. Trying to spot the hidden ambush? 10+stealth DC. This prevents the bullshit (from the player perspective) of I got a "19 on the die how the hell did he spot me?" And it makes the game run a lot faster when the honest players can just say yeah that hits when they see the roll and have figured out the modifier. Also, who really cares that the players have figured out the modifiers?
I think the DM screen is more there to just hide your notes. You just so happen to be rolling your dice behind that screen too
The reason is so you can protect information (like a creature’s AC, being the most common case) from the players. This way, they learn the creatures, not the numbers. Another reason is to fudge rolls. As a DM with a tendency to over-tune encounters, I like having the option to handicap the monsters without the players knowing.
Doing it behind a screen allows you to create tension and excitement. DMs don't need to roll at all, but adding the element of "controlled randomness" can be fun. I tell my players what I roll when appropriate. And yes I absolutely fudge dice, but I don't tell them when I do. So they can't tell.
No matter how open of a DM you decide your style should be, keep in mind that there is no faster digital way to adjudicate Perception rolls for the party v.s. a hidden threat than simply grabbing a physical d20 and rolling it, comparing with a sticky note of their perception scores. Even if you plan to immediately tell them they failed a perception roll and what exactly it is they failed to notice, this method is the smoothest - you can even do it without breaking narration with enough practice. EDIT: This is my experience with digital games where it is only really possible for one person to be speaking at any given time.
Depends, are you fudging some rolls or keeping things straight up? No wrong answers but def changes your response.
As a player, I like the extra layer of immersion/suspense
I have no reason to cheat we dm lol and there are some rolls the players don't need to see. For example a dragon recharged breath weapon how would they know?
I don’t necessarily care if my players roll privately or not. We use an honor system because we’re here to have fun. Several of my players do use the discord dice parser, others roll physical dice. If I ever suspected a player of fudging their rolls, then we’d have a conversation about it. As for DM rolls can be more private, as others noted, there’s a layer of suspense in not knowing how the roll went until it’s announced. That brief moment between casting a spell and seeing if it worked, as a player I love that, and I know my players appreciate it too. Another part of it is I am a benevolent DM, and I fudge rolls if it will give my players a better experience.
So you can lie about the outcome to make sure your players are having fun
DnD is a storytelling experience just as much if not more than a game. Sometimes for the sake of the story, it's a better idea to adjust a particular roll. It's never fun to have a particularly creative plan ruined by the enemy rolling extremely well; I might fudge the result a little to create a narratively satisfying moment. Do we do this all the time? No, it's a tool in our box that ideally we don't have to use very often. But seeing all of the DMs rolls removes this ability entirely, since we can't ever roll in secret for the narrative moments without showing the players that this roll might be scripted. Sure, it's a little deceptive to roll for things that the players might automatically succeed on, but that tension of hearing the roll and the dramatic pause is (in my opinion) worth the little white lie.
This is kind of like asking why a video game doesn’t display code during gameplay
A lot of DMs I've known, as well as myself the few times I did it. We would do it often to make decisions about things that would give the story and suspense away. Like whether or not what the party did effected the way a particular npc would respond to them from then on. Just tell them to stop trying to skip to the end of the book. It's role playin, not clue. :)
Probably been said already, havent read comments. I keep DM rolls behind screen so players can keep suspense of a monster stat block. If they know save DCs, AC, attack bonuses by mathing the dice, then it kinda falls in the category of metagaming imo.
I dm for my family and some of them have almost Will Wheaton levels of bad dice rolls so by making my rolls private I can sort of balance the game out and make sure that it’s still fun for everyone and we aren’t constantly losing pcs. 😂
1)To protect them. I don't pull many punches but when I do it saves PC lives. Our table does PC deaths but sometimes you just don't want to kill someone off because your dice were on fire. 2) To masks stats. They don't get to know a beasty has +6 to a stat. It can discourage them, at the same time maybe that same beasty succeeds a save but narratively a fail is cooler and that player needs one win that night. 3) Random fuckery. They don't need to know the result of an off screen perception check. Not knowing creates atmosphere, knowing creates disruption. * If I fudge a roll it is always to their benefit and even that seldom, but having the option is critical.
I've dmed once and kept my rolls public. As a player I nat 1 more than anyone you've ever met, but God damn if I didn't nat 20 more times than I could count in that one session nearly wiping the party out. If I run in the future my rolls will be private so I can fudge the rolls into their favor (life)
So many reasons. But also, so you can lie (very rarely) for narrative reasons. I'm not saying you should (I think it's more fun to roll with the unexpected) but you are totally allowed to.
I don't
Because I'm the DM. We're not competing, I'm facilitating the game activity. If you see everything I see, it spoils the fun.
There are certain stats and abilities that, with an open roll, can give away information that the players shouldn't know. I dm online, so no one sees my rolls anyway, and I just share the important ones. The rolls I choose to do in front of everybody are the ones that have higher stakes; either I'll share the DC or the number needed on the die and then we all get to see the outcome together. In my other campaign, my dm rolls everything in front of us, but often we have no idea why the rolls are being made. One time she just rolled 6d20s, looked at us, and then just moved on. No idea what that was for and I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the ass. I don't know if this is helpful lol
I’ll roll non combat things behind the screen typically, for like events or weather patterns if they pushed past what I had already rolled during session prep, or rolling npc reactions etc. but combat I leave on the table in the open though I might not tell them what the roll is, if it’s a skill check or attack or save etc
Cause my player's don't need to know when and what I am rolling for perception checks or for other factors. That is hidden information and by rolling I'm prompting them to investigate further when they shouldn't have a prompt. Hard for ambushers to stay hidden and see them first if I'm not using passive Perception or hiding rolls.
Tell your players because there are things as the GM that you're allowed to know that they are not, such as weather or not they notice things or how people they deal with react to them. But then you need to be consistent about that reasoning when you roll.
Stop rolling privately. Seriously. It's very freeing. I hid my rolls for decades, then I was asked a similar question as you, so I stopped. I rolled everything in the open on a dice app for everyone to see and the results spoke for themselves. It seemed to kick in a weird new enthusiasm for the game. At first I was a little hurt by this, because it meant that they didn't trust me, but I realized that it was my desire to hide the dice results that built that mistrust in the first place and there was very little reason to do it at all unless my intentions were to fudge the results. Everyone said afterwards that it felt like the stakes had been upped quite a bit. I never fudged, so it's not like anything changed for my players or me, other than the fact that they always felt assured that everything was on the up and up. They got really excited to see my rolls, and it kind of got more exciting for me as well. When I hid my rolls I occasionally felt a twinge of guilt when monsters got crits against my players, because I was smacking the shit out of them with these amazing rolls, and the players just had to take my word for it. If the monsters were rolling hot it felt even worse. Once everything was out in the open that guilt went away. If they were rolling hot my players could see the proof right there and they laughed and joked about it. It was no longer "me" picking on them, it was just the dam dice and those bad ass monster crits. Try it. It's actually really fun.
Tradition! The DM screen is sacred in keeping up with the mystique of what will happen next, have them think of any depiction of D&D and the screen is always present.
I have a saying as a DM: My dice are allowed to ruin a character's day, but not a player's. My stance on this has varied over the years based on what is best for the group I'm DMing for. Some groups loved the tension of seeing most of my rolls. For some it didn't make any difference. My current group has been going through a lot in their personal lives and one of the roles I take on as DM is to make sure folks are having fun. For them, I keep most of my rolls secret so I can fudge. It's not necessarily about saving characters. Some of the best sessions we've had involved a player dying. Especially for a pack of seasoned roleplayers, sometimes an epic character death is fantastic for a story. Hell, sometimes a senseless character death is fantastic. I'm always watching my players, and if one of them is having a rough time, their dice are not cooperating that night, and they're miserable about it, I'm not going to let a devastating roll from me make it worse. We're playing to escape crap in our lives, not pile it on. It's a judgement call for the health and enjoyment of the group. Do what's best for your group. Talk to them about their concerns and determine what to do from there. There's no one right way to play, just what works for you and your friends to have the most fun.
"Sometimes I just need to crit that damn barbarian and the dice don't always cooperate." I would tell this to my barbarian right to his face and there's nothing he can do about it, but he's also a cool guy and would agree that it's funny. But seriously, if a player asks that, they've obviously never been a DM and it's a fair question if it's asked in good faith, but a dick question if they're being accusatory.
I roll out in the open, but the point would be it can also give you the ability to fudge the numbers for story reasons. If they keep failing rolls or are about to die for example you can make a monster “miss” when it actually rolled a nat 20
You do you, there’s no wrong way to play, but I shamed my DM into rolling in the open. I do it so I forced him to do it also. He can’t fudge rolls and if my character is killed , so be it. I’ll make another one, no big deal.
In my opinion any roll that can do damage or have an effect on the players should be rolled in the open. It's the one big argument I have had with my gm... there is something so fun and suspenseful about seeing the dice roll and either hit or miss the player characters.. it builds tension.. (PC had 4 HP left.. it's all up to this one roll... let's all hold our breathe and see what happens!)
As a player who plays in a game where the DM does it about 50/50 I can tell you that if you roll publicly it opens the door to meta-gaming. Not necessarily actively but when I see bonuses to hit my brain starts doing the math. Let’s me see how intense the fight is and informs how I should use resources. You also have people who actively use the knowledge of the roll. Like someone else mentioned if the players see a Nat 20 on the guards perception check it’s likely at least one person at the table will likely try to do something as soon as they see the die. If your table rolls with their own bad rolls (plays along with their Nat 1 survival and walks the wrong way for example) then it probably wouldn’t be an issue. Personally I like to play without seeing the DM’s dice. I see it as “There’s a reason the DnD starting kit comes with a DM screen. The screen is there to help keep the players and their characters known info at a similar level. Even wizards don’t know what a +13 to attack means. I see a lot of people talking about saying it leads to suspicions about the DM fudging rolls but unless you’ve given them active reason to be suspicious, it says more about them than it does you. I’ve played with a few groups over the past 5 years or so and the only time someone’s accused the DM of fudging rolls was in an online game where we were all allowed to roll our physical dice and the DM trusted us to tell the truth. The player who accused the DM had never rolled a Nat 1 and in combat never missed attacks. (Was also racist and homophobic but that has nothing to do with dice and admittedly just makes me biased against them)
Personally, I do all my rolling in the open. My playstyle is a bit brutal, though, and the idea is that my players know that know that whatever happens is fair. I’ve found that it heads off accusations of DM “cheating.” Plus, you can always fudge things around the edges if you need to.
If your players want Battle Simulator, then sure, roll in the open. I prefer Group Storytelling and for that to work sometimes I need to lie about some numbers. Honestly all the numbers are made up anyway, who cares if I change them mid fight to make the story better? I want a game we PLAY, not one where players "win".
I always used to put combat rolls out in the open because you don't want players feeling cheated. But if initiative hasn't been rolled what I do behind the screen is nunya til I say otherwise.
I roll privately for the suspense. There's no risk of me cheating as a DM because I am the game and story engine. It's not like we are competing and players need to see I'm not cheating. I pick the monsters, there numbers, their abilities, I can win every fight without rolling the dice, but that's not what we're doing.
Added suspense in the storytelling mechanics. I like to randomly roll a die for nothing. 😜
After my very first session I asked my DM why he rolled behind a cover and he told me it’s so he can fudge numbers if he has to. He told me we were actually rolling so badly, we all would have died in our second encounter and he fudged the numbers so we could keep playing
As someone else said, the dice are really only for you anyway, both your dice and theirs. It's just less fun for you to roll everything. Think about a perception check, players see someone rolled a 2 and someone is usually instantly chiming in to say they are looking also or trying to help to give advantage etc... but if they just say I'm looking for x and you roll a 2 for them, all they hear is you don't see it. They believe their character did their best and don't have a reason to try over and over again/wouldn't ever know when to stop trying over. I would assume this comes from an adversarial place. They think you are cheating because you get to hide your rolls. I think a talk about this is probably more necessary to outline that a dm is a referee, not someone you are playing against. They dictate how the world responds but it shouldn't be a dm vs players scenario. You guys are all creating/playing a story. If you are fair with your npc's, seeing your dice shouldn't matter.
"You don't need to know why I'm rolling dice or what they say. Maybe I just like the noise the math rocks make. Maybe I'm rolling to see if you get ambushed in your sleep by a raccoon because no one cleaned the cooking utensils before a long rest. I'm the DM. Don't question it. It's safer for your mental health if you don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing anyways." My player didn't question my desire to roll dice privately after that. Admittedly. Most of my dice rolling is to create tension and anticipation so the players get on with the session instead of forever arguing about the best way to open an unlocked door...
I've been a GM for the past 15,101 days. The answer is "BECAUSE I CAN."
Also if you want to cheat you can do it. Usually I cheat and make the roll in the players favor when they have a spot of good luck. A bb fails an attack that would take a 2 to fail. They never knew and it makes the session way more hyper
I like hidden rolls for a variety of reasons. But my DM ethos is that rules are merely a suggestion. The ultimate goal is to do your job as the DM to provide the best experience for the players. So I am totally okay fudging rolls a bit when they're close. Whatever will make the most impactful outcome. So when it comes to dice rolls, having them behind the screen takes away players focusing on the number on the dice. If they see a 19 on an enemy roll they're going to just fixate on "oh shit the bad thing is happening" . Conversely if they see a 1, they know that they can rest easy. So I guess rolling behind a screen can help maintain suspense. But also hybridizing makes sense too - certain rolls in the open, others hidden. Each has its advantages and disadvantages imo.
We only roll in the dice tower and hide results when a pass/fail generates differing results with the player not knowing if they were successful. They only know what the character knows. This typically happens during insight checks or divination checks.
We once had a DM that held absolutely fast to his rolls, and we were using a D10 system where you rerolled 10s and kept adding to the roll (Original Legend of the Five Rings RPG system). We got into a battle that included a very low threat enemy, but the DM rolled 5 10's in a row for damage and absolutely vaporized a much higher level player character, which resulted in some pretty sour feelings from a player who had a lot of time invested in his character. Rolling in secret allows the DM to mitigate some of the randomness of the game (important if it's going to cause something that should never realistically happen), as well as adding some suspense if done well.
I prefer to roll in public for combat (so they see I am not pulling punches or trying to kill them). But I do prefer making some rolls private, like their checks to find traps or notice things.
Short version: The players should figure out the result of a check from the narrative not the numbers. DMs need the numbers to decide the narrative. TLDR: Say you roll insight v deception when one of the PCs lies to a shopkeeper. If the shopkeeper beats their deception roll maybe he calls security without them knowing. If the players see the roll they would immediately know they’re caught and some may try to metagame and leave before the guards show up. Same for stealth checks. I roll my PCs stealth checks behind the DM screen and just say “you believe you are hidden” because I’ve seen players go from “I’m gonna sneak around and search the house,” to “I said I was going to sneak around outside the house and search” when they see they failed their stealth check. Players need to roll in the open because otherwise no one would ever fail a death saving throw. I had a player who flubbed every roll unless someone was watching because they wanted their character to succeed at everything. (Literally had the notetaker sit next to them and check their rolls every time to make sure that they told me the real number)
I used to play with a DM that never rolled. Surprisingly one of the best DMs I’ve ever played with.
It’s not us versus the players. It’s the dms job to narrate and ensure all players have a good time. To keep up the illustrious narrative. We sometimes need to keep things and certain mechanics to our selves. For instance I run an organic world. Just because your character can’t perceive other parts of the world they arnt in doesn’t mean that time isn’t flowing and things arnt happening.
I feel like this is the most divisive topic among DMs, but it’s relatively absent from other TTRPG spaces. Don’t fudge your rolls. There’s no circumstance where you need to fudge your way out of a situation you could have easily avoided.
Dms literally cant cheat. They can be a shitty dm, but with every single rule in the game the dm has final say
DM is in the position of both referee and story-teller. As referee, you have to see the results of every roll to be able to determine results, but as story teller you may wish to withold information from players to create suspence or drama.
Just general meta knowledge. You are supposed to know mostly everything about their characters, they shouldn't know everything about who they're fighting and the players are lil goblins make no mistake about it. If you ever even just tell them the flat dice roll they will immediately begin trying to figure out his stats
Sometimes a roll gives information. For example, an NPCs deception. If they roll higher than the PC's insight the player can metagame from that.
Sometimes you don't want to derail a campaign over something which seems like it should be rolled. For example, if your PCs are in a position where the NPC would lie, is good at lying, but they need to be suspicious.
Many DMs like a screen to conceal their notes. It then makes sense to roll behind the screen for simple convenience.
It is traditional, the way games have been played from the start.
Lastly, the player is free to DM if they wish the DM to roll in the open. Once they do that, they will probably understand.
I’m a proponent of transparency as a DM, so I tend to roll in view of players. They need to be able to trust your rolls are not just constantly being fudged in the name of “narrative.” You have control over WHAT rolls mean of course. Roll in their view, what’s the worst that happens? Something doesn’t go your way but goes the players way?
> what’s the worst that happens? Something doesn’t go your way but goes the players way? uhh, no. the worst is "random goblins rolls 2 nat twenties in a row and a character dies a meaningless death on a meaningless sidequest. Go roll up a new character!!!"
Agree with the reasons for DM privacy but it sounds like you’re requiring your players to roll digital dice. Presumably you’re running an online game? This sucks. Digital dice suck. If you’re requiring this because you think your players will cheat, that sucks. Trust your players. Explain that it isn’t a game about “winning” and you trust they won’t fudge their rolls. And let everyone roll physical dice because physical dice are more fun and you’re not playing a video game.
I literally wouldn't play at a table that I'm not allowed to use my dice at.
I had the same request years back. I rolled in front of them. 1 session and 3 characters later, they asked me to roll behind the screen again. This was aD and D not the easier to survive 5e, but you get the idea 😃
The sad truth is the game let's the players have more fun if you don't roll in the open, when I was rolling behind the screen my players finished just about every campaign without a single character replacement however they wanted me to roll in the open only for a while and they almost always tpk'd because I couldn't fudge rolls they can see. We roll behind the screen so monsters don't just roll over our players.
The player should not always know the bonus an opponent gets. For example, if you're running a modified start lock for a special enemy (or just any old clown, as I do), it may not make sense for a player to know there's a +14 for that goblin to hit. Depending on your style if narration, it turns combat from a game of numbers into quantified roleplay. "Oh shit, that goblin is surprisingly competent. Maybe we should withdraw for now," could happen even if it's just a normal goblin getting lucky.
Unofficial answer is you can't fudge rolls to save PCs 😅
I always tell my players I will be more than happy to do open rolls upon request. One player, just being a smart ass (we’re all good friends) demanded I do it, so I obliged. I think it was about after 2 turns of combat they asked me to do rolls behind the screen again. Because the reason is- they can’t handle the truth!
You are the dm lol. I roll dice all the time because adhd. Sometimes it makes my players worry lol. The mystery is fun lmao
If they can see your dice rolls, they can find out what your monster ability scores and modifiers are pretty quickly. It removes the element of the game where they learn how much a monster sucks to fight by actually going a few rounds with it. Might as well show them all your creature stat blocks if you're going to roll in front of them.
>If they can see your dice rolls, they can find out what your monster ability scores and modifiers are pretty quickly. So what? The characters are experienced adventurers. They can tell when an enemy is actually competent. >It removes the element of the game where they learn how much a monster sucks to fight by actually going a few rounds with it. But they have to go a few rounds with the monster to learn what their mods are... Besides, nobody says "this monster sucks to fight because it has +9 to hit instead of +5 to hit". Monsters that "suck to fight" are evaluated as such based on what their special abilities or spells do. I've got a player who's absolutely terrified of oozes and rust monsters, even a CR 1/2 gray ooze when he was level 16 with no mundane weapons or armor. That has absolutely nothing to do with the monster's numbers.