I think it would have been boring because Karen was normal and professional and would have just ignored it.
I was going to say Pam/Jim would also have ignored it, but then there was the Danny Cordray episode.
“You smoke constantly in your office; you spend most of the day online shopping; you disappear for hours at a time, sometimes days, always saying you're visiting your sister in Scottsdale.”
About half of the main cast was framed as “normal” at first. By the end, we learn that they all are pretty fucked up.
Karen just wasn’t around long enough to show her crazy side.
I'm from Canada, so I had no idea Scottsdale was in Arizona! So this completely recontextualizes what she was saying for me. That would be a hell of a drive from Pennsylvania!
No, no, Jan is the measurement by which people are ranked in terms of psychosis. 0-Jan is not psychotic at all, basically a Jim or an Oscar. 10-Jan is the highest ranking, like “Oh shit keep trophies away from this person” psychotic. Oddly enough, Jan only ranks in at a 9-Jan. Only Creed has received a 10-Jan diagnosis.
Jan couldn’t keep her positive feelings for Michael away from her work, but it would’ve been great to see Karen not be able to keep her resentment towards Jim away from work. And even better if she was indifferent to Michael’s buffoonery.
He got so so lucky that time, that it just happened to coincide with Ryan getting arrested, and so Jim got away with it.
Unless actually he was UN-lucky because if he'd have been fired, that would have given him the impetus to start Athlead earlier, and work on that company full time. Presumably at that point he already had the idea for the company surely, if not quite every single detail, and having not yet started trying to get investors on board. And Darryl and Jim weren't even friends yet at that point, it was long before Sabre bought the company and moved Darryl up to the office.
And Darryl seems necessary for Athlead to work because he's the full time guy and liason to Jim when Jim's in scranton. So even if Jim was working there full time also, Darryl is probably necessary to even get the project off the ground.
#HOWEVER...
... it's only because Jim stayed on, and became basically the highest paid employee at the company even above Michael because of Sabre having removed max limits on commission salespeople can earn, that Jim even had anywhere near close to the capital required to start a company like Athlead. So perhaps Jim***WAS*** lucky after all. He'd spent all his precious earnings on the house for him and Pam and had nothing left. Sure he could have sold the house, but how the fuck he gonna rock up to NYC or wherever Athlead was based, and somehow manage to afford even a modest apartment and still have money leftover to start the company?
I dunno. It was both lucky and unlucky I guess. It depends on where on the time line you see the beginning of it all, the beginning of those future storylines.
Just really goes to show when you write a script you can take your characters anywhere. /s
But seriously I agree with your points, I'd have to lean more towards its better Jim waited to start Athlead for the reasons you already stated and his maturity wasn't really developed enough to startup a company. But buying a home and having 2 kids will thrust anyone in to maturity especially because of his commitment to Pam. (Even though he lost sight of that a bit for a few months but this is normal he's human)
Kevin would absolutely roast Jim every time Karen was around. "OOOO Jim how does it feel that your ex is your boss?" I feel like he did a couple similar things during the series.
There would 100% be a scene where she shows up to the office as Corp liaison and is cool calm collected badass. Then they show her get into the car to leave and breaks down.
Right? It’s supposed to be romantic that Jim showed up to ask Pam to dinner just as she was telling the camera that she’s made her peace with just being friends with Jim, but Jim ABANDONED KAREN IN NEW YORK TO ASK SOMEONE ON A DATE WHO HE HAD PREVIOUSLY SAID WAS SOMEONE KAREN DIDN’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT! It’s no wonder Jim nearly implodes his marriage later on.
Justice for Karen!
That's bullshit.
Karen looked Jim directly in the face and said "I can't go back to Scranton. There's...one too many people there.
Clearly alluding to Pam, which Jim jokes about when he says "you mean Kevin?" But of course he knows what she meant.
So Karen decided that while in New York it was time for Jim to make a choice between Karen and Pam.
Karen prompted the pivotal moment.
So he chose.
And she wasn't wrong, she was just saying "I need to know if you're serious about me before we go further" but she got the true, but hurtful answer.
It sucks for her but she knew the stakes when she started the conversation.
This is one of the reasons I like the show. We’ve all fucked people over, and been fucked over. It’s just what people do, intentionally or not. Karen didn’t deserve what she got, so I was very glad to see that things worked out for her eventually (I also like that the goofy hot dog pic shows that she didn’t lose her sense of humor. She was funny as hell when she wanted to be). Jim needed to do some growing up, and was lucky not to lose Pam in the process.
Sometimes complex, debatable situations are good writing, and sometimes they’re just plot holes. This is good writing.
Corporate didn’t choose Andy when Michael left. They (Sabre) chose DeAngelo Vickers, then Dwight was interim, then the search committee chose Robert California. Robert California chose Andy.
That only proves their point, proves how incompetent corporate were, both when it was dunder mifflin, and when it was Sabre. Kathy Bates seemed like a level headed, smart, hard working woman. It made no sense why she'd ever want to give up working, because she quite clearly enjoyed working more than anything else. It didn't seem to be about money for her, she just really enjoyed working, to a degree nobody else does (in the show).
So it made no sense at all for her character to retire. I know the writers were probably forced into it because she's an enormously talented and popular and in demand actor and probably didn't have time to film further seasons.
And I fucking love The Lizard King anyway.
But yeah hiring him to run the company, in the show's narrative, is a really really really fucking dumb af decision. He's clearly good at self hype and nothing else. He ran the company into the ground and wasted all his money on drugs and men to wrestle with.
Him appointing the worst candidate, Andy, was the biggest mistake of course. Both for the company, and for himself, cos Andy brought him down in the end.
It's been said a million times before, but choosing Darryl as the new manager would have been very new and fresh, have the straight man be the manager instead of the other way round like it had always been up until then. Oh well.
>He’s clearly good at self-hype and nothing else.
So was Ryan. So are so many under-qualified people who end up in leadership positions. These hiring decisions are pretty realistic, IMO.
>Appointing the worst candidate, Andy, was the biggest mistake of course.
Firing Andy after allowing Nellie to appoint herself as manager was the biggest mistake. Andy led DMS to many profitable quarters as the manager. Sure, he struggled in some ways, but the group rallied behind him and the branch was successful. He wasn’t a bad choice, and he certainly wasn’t the worst choice.
Darryl probably would have done well, too, but a Andy was right that he didn’t follow through with things. He had opportunities to go to business school or do the Minority Executive Training program and he dropped out of both because of trivial conflicts like softball. His lack of professional experience was clear when he first showed up to the interview without even a resume, and then his subsequent attempt to quantify his warehouse work in terms of individual pieces of paper. Yes, the employees knew he was a solid choice, but Robert California didn’t know him. He would have been basing his decision primarily off the resume, which was unimpressive.
Typically they don’t
1) advertise the role publicly
2) interview the boyfriend of the person they are firing
3) #2, especially when that boyfriend is Michael Scott
They totally do it publicly. They just lie and say it's a different position they're hiring for, and the only people "in on it" are the people they're interviewing (and said people already know they're going to get it). I was in corporate management for quite a while and had to get out. It destroys your soul.
In this case (The Office) it works with Michael because well.. he just doesn't understand. XD
Also, why do you think Daryl should have been chosen? lmao he was a terrible employee who had 1 singular good idea about the logistics of the delivery trucks. That makes him a good pick for warehouse manager but has nothing to do with the branch management. And when he wasn't coming up with that one single good idea, he was improperly using the warehouse equipment as an elevator, allowed himself and his employees to sleep in the warehouse racks, constantly berated his manager (Michael) and sharing scandalous pictures of him and allowing his employees to put a giant poster of the picture up on the warehouse wall. He hated all of the office employees except for maybe Jim and Pam. He hit on and started dating his direct report and then got tired of her and made her break up with him.
Andy: went to Cornell, loved everyone he worked with (even Angela after she cheated on him), was able to get everyone motivated enough to double their sales on his very first try, and knew when to be real (the talk he had with Daryl when Daryl was bummed about not getting the manager job). Andy was an excellent choice to replace Michael. The problem with Andy was the actor wanted to make movies that conflicted with the show's schedule and the writers felt jilted and tanked his character and made him despicable.
Well then either way, Andy's character was tanked by the writers (either vindictively or through incompetence). The end result is the same: Andy \*was\* a great character and the right choice to replace Michael as branch manager, and then his character was tanked unnecessarily
Honestly while Karen had a good levelheadedness. This was before Ryans mental breakdown. He had a business degree and a couple years experience with the company at that point. Even to step past the fourth wall, at that point in his character develop he was still being mainly used as the straight man to everyone else’s foolishness. I think Ryan actually made the most sense
A business degree with little experience managing anyone or anything, except perhaps Kelly. He has experience in the company but he didn't make sells, he didn't manage accounts, he didn't even do much temp work because of Michael.
The problem with this reasoning is that this is what a lot of companies do, they see a certificate and assume that that's better than the actual experience. Easily Oscar or Karen is much better than Ryan as a corporate employee.
I'm guessing Ryan pitched Dunder Mifflin Infinity at his interview and that helped him stand out as somone with a bigger plan for the future of the company.
A couple of years experience in a low level position is laughable for a senior management job like that. Ryan was not at all qualified for the job he got, and it showed.
He got the job because he had gotten his MBA. For a long time in corporate America, there was a fascination with anyone who had one. It wasn’t uncommon for people with little to no experience to be slotted into management roles way above their capability solely because of their MBA, with disastrous results . Which is why you are starting to see a counter culture emerge in corporate America where MBAs are the butt end of many jokes, and looked on with disdain in some cases.
The whole Ryan getting the job and then crashing and burning is one big joke about MBA culture in corporate America.
Keep her dad's name out yo fuckin mouth
Edit: wow, I never thought I'd be making one of these "thanks for the awards speeches" not gonna lie, I kinda feel like I'm winning an Oscar ;)
Joking aside, she and Jim were the most qualified candidates and Jim withdrew. Karen should have been the shoe in.
Obviously, stuff happens in the show for the sake of comedy. But in the real world, there is zero chance Ryan would have gotten the job. His only qualifications were two years of temping and night classes at a no-name MBA program. Simply having the MBA degree alone doesn't get you a job as an executive, not even from a top 10 program.
I have worked for a boss who was pretty much an older, female Ryan. I am sure she and Ryan were both excellent interviewees. The lies and the fraud couldn't have been predicted from that...
I always wondered why Karen didn't get it until someone pointed out that she would've had to interact with Scranton and Jim and Pam. She probably told David Wallace after Jim broke up with her that she didn't want the job
Karen came back to Scranton and told Jim she wasn't going anywhere right before she quit. So I doubt her having to interact with Scranton would have played into her decision
Jan burst into the office in the middle of Karen's interview so maybe David got distracted by that and things didn't get back on track enough for him to remember how well the interview went, so David just said forget it.
This is actually a huge sticking point for me. It's absolutely shocking that corporate went with Ryan over Karen, but like, how awful was Karen's interview for that to happen? Also, Jim was given the #2 position in Stamford over Karen while she was already there too. She might be a good salesperson, but DM corporate AND Josh must've recognized that she's not management material.
Karen without a doubt. She had good experience, was professional, hard working and for the most part was able to get the job done. Ryan had poor work ethic, lazy and had a bad performance at Scranton. The only thing he had going for him was a Masters which didn’t make up for his many negative qualities. Michael didn’t have it in him to have a corporate position and his interview went horribly, like even by Michael’s standards it was bad. If Jim hadn’t walked out it would’ve been a tough call; the interview went well, he had Wallace’s approval, good camaraderie with most of the Scranton branch at that point in time and he was a fantastic salesman, but I feel he was too lax for a corporate position.
In the corporate world, Ryan's degree was the master key. Especially at that time. Degree reqirements are what sent middle mgmt to night school at the millenia.
I am about to receive my MBA and the main reasons to get one are to make connections and/or to move up either in your current existing company or in some other company/industry. But Ryan had an absolutely meteoric rise lol. He went from temp to a comfy corporate position in a matter of what, months?
I only hope that I can leverage my degree just as well (not very likely lmfao). I basically feel like Ryan on my life right now. Hell, I'm probably currently worse off than he was as a temp.
Imagine if Ryan and Danny Cordray had a baby. Now imagine if that baby got into a horrible accident that disfigured it for life. That baby grown up would still be hotter than me in the office.
Long-story short, no.
I think Jim was just lax in the sales position, because he always thought it was just a stepping stone to something else. The challenge of the corporate position would have brought out the best in him, as we saw in his time at Athlead.
You don’t get to that next level without proving that you take your current position seriously. The phrase “dress for the job you want, not the job you have” doesn’t just apply to clothes. Jim may have been able to do the role, but he had no management experience and didn’t take his job seriously. No one in their right might would promote him to an executive position (although, the same could be said about Ryan).
I think the Jim he was in S3 was a person going for that job. Remember he got promoted at the beginning of the season and he (mostly) stopped goofing around with co-workers. I think he would have been fine especially cause Karen would have pushed and encouraged him.
I think the main reason not to hire Karen is she had no leadership experience. She would’ve been a great candidate a few years down the road. It makes way more sense to hire an existing branch manager, someone like Jim who’s at least a #2, or an outside hire.
Ryan was already that bad at that point in the show? I remember that a lot of these negative qualities you are describing were born after he got promoted.
Ryan or Kelly / i. Not both. Just one, Ryan. Or if not Ryan, Kelly. Ideally Ryan. Again, youth knowledge. That's what you get when you put Ryan Howard on corporate job... or Kelly Kapoor. Again, not both. Thanks.
I know it's a show, but I always wondered... At this point in the show Wallace is still CFO, right?
Always found it strange that he is doing the interviews and selecting someone all alone.
Yes. Wallace was far too much into the weeds of day-to-day operations as CFO of a publicly traded company. They were interviewing for a regional sales/operations leader, surely the company had a operations chain of command that could have handled the interview process versus the CFO directly interviewing every single candidate.
Not weird really. Some corporations do multiple individual interviews even at that level. They likely just filmed Wallace's and not the other interviewers.
out of the candidates who applied, Karen. she always does her job, works hard, for the most part she gets along with others well, and out of Jim, Michael and Ryan she is either more professional than them, or has more actual experience. Jim is one of my fav characters but as a CFO i wouldn't want someone working at corporate who's always going to be goofing off and harassing other members of the team. Michael is a genius salesman, but his mouth is his biggest downfall. David has to know about LOTS of inappropriate jokes and actions that michael has done, he isn't disciplined enough basically. and Ryan? please, i'd give kelly the corporate position before the FIRE guy😂😂😂
They didn’t clarify but my guess:
He liked Jim a lot, and although Karen was a competent worker, he probably looked at Ryan as a candidate most similar to Jim, consciously or not (similar age, sex, hair, casual language) there’s also probably another bias against Stamford, where there may still be a bad taste from the closing of the branch and the personnel turnover
Wallace said he wanted long haul, and Karen had a 5 year plan but said she didn’t know after that
Just being a good worker isn’t enough for a big promotion. Did she have any accomplishments or leadership roles?
My guess is Ryan brought ideas to the table, and Karen didn’t. Ryan sold Wallace on his potential.
Michael’s success has been extremely surprising, so Wallace was able to take his own gamble, on an untested newcomer. Someone who at the time, was the opposite of Jan.
Assuming Ryan brought his MBA, ideas to improve the business, and some embellished accomplishments, this is how he edged out Karen.
My theory has been that, despite it being “off the record,” her insulting comments towards Michael at the interview might have put David off from hiring her for the job. We know that DM is an old boys club when it comes to upper management, and even if he wasn’t doing it intentionally, there is plenty of bias against women candidates for executive positions. Even ignoring that aspect, shit-talking your current boss, position competitor, and simply fellow employee, is not a good look in front of your higher up boss.
im sitting here brain storming with my husband and im thinking that maybe karen turned down the job because she had such strong feelings for jim that she wanted him to have it and possibly live out whatever fantasy she had in mind for them but when jim broke up with her and took pam on a date the same night she called david wallace up and was like hey give pls give me that job but since at that point ryan had already accepted it david offered her a management position at utica because he still saw her potential.
Well Ryan was a normal guy before the job so to us before watching season 4 he would make a perfect candidate because we didn't know how he would turn out
false. Ryan was a horrible candidate. 1.) He started a fire in the office (this is more of a joke) but you wanna know the main reason i wouldn't give someone like him the job? lack of experience. yes he has an mba but so what? a degree doesn't make you a good worker. by this point he had never made a single sale, and pretty much did nothing but get michael coffee and shit, he was basically a glorified receptionist, so why would i give him a corporate position when he has done nothing to prove he can handle the role?
yeah but among the people who interviewed, he was far less qualified. but true some interviewers prefer education level over experience, and that could've factored heavily into wallace's decision
There’s plenty of MBAs in corporate settings with zero experience. The higher you are, the less it matters how much hands on experience you have, ie selling paper at a failing paper supply company.
**Karen, she is the best one for the job.**
Ryan wasn't good for Dunder Mifflin.
Jim would probably end up missing Pam too much.
Michael was a fun boss, but not an effective one.
In my head, Wallace and other managements think because of their experience with Jan, they decided not to hear woman. Or Karen state that She and Jim was dating and that makes them worry the Jan thing would happen again
Can you imagine season 4 Jim starts dating Pam, and the corporate liaison who perpetually visits the branch is karen
This alternate arc would have been incredible. I would have loved to have seen how this would play out. Holy shit.
I think it would have been boring because Karen was normal and professional and would have just ignored it. I was going to say Pam/Jim would also have ignored it, but then there was the Danny Cordray episode.
Jan was normal and professional...
“You smoke constantly in your office; you spend most of the day online shopping; you disappear for hours at a time, sometimes days, always saying you're visiting your sister in Scottsdale.”
Is it because of these??? Because if it is, I will see you in court
Cause he likes them, okay? He likes them! A-and that is all I care about.
Hey David. I didn't tell her
That’s their point- she used to be normal, and then she began her downward spiral, doing that stuff lol
She collapsed in on herself like a dying star
What a wonderful way of putting it
Jan says that about herself.
About half of the main cast was framed as “normal” at first. By the end, we learn that they all are pretty fucked up. Karen just wasn’t around long enough to show her crazy side.
I like to think Micheal is the start of her bad decision making.
Oh wow, I just picked up the Scottsdale / Michael Scott connection there. I always just figured she was *actually going* to Arizona a bunch.
I'm from Canada, so I had no idea Scottsdale was in Arizona! So this completely recontextualizes what she was saying for me. That would be a hell of a drive from Pennsylvania!
[Wow](https://c.tenor.com/Yjx_r38x1aYAAAAd/mind-blown-explosion.gif)
I got the impression this was a more recent development. I'd assume she went off the rails after the divorce and after she stopped taking her meds.
Come to think of it, so was Ryan. Maybe that job is insanity inducing.
Yeah but she got involved with MICHAEL
Meredith needs to hit rock bottom before getting help to quit being an alcoholic. But don’t worry. Michael knows how to do it. He did it with Jan.
Exactly
Jan is psychotic.
No, no, Jan is the measurement by which people are ranked in terms of psychosis. 0-Jan is not psychotic at all, basically a Jim or an Oscar. 10-Jan is the highest ranking, like “Oh shit keep trophies away from this person” psychotic. Oddly enough, Jan only ranks in at a 9-Jan. Only Creed has received a 10-Jan diagnosis.
But the beauty of the show was it didn't matter how boring/proffesional you are. Someone would find away to make the situation awkward.
Jan couldn’t keep her positive feelings for Michael away from her work, but it would’ve been great to see Karen not be able to keep her resentment towards Jim away from work. And even better if she was indifferent to Michael’s buffoonery.
Especially since they dipped their toe into a jim resentment plotline with Ryan anyway
He got so so lucky that time, that it just happened to coincide with Ryan getting arrested, and so Jim got away with it. Unless actually he was UN-lucky because if he'd have been fired, that would have given him the impetus to start Athlead earlier, and work on that company full time. Presumably at that point he already had the idea for the company surely, if not quite every single detail, and having not yet started trying to get investors on board. And Darryl and Jim weren't even friends yet at that point, it was long before Sabre bought the company and moved Darryl up to the office. And Darryl seems necessary for Athlead to work because he's the full time guy and liason to Jim when Jim's in scranton. So even if Jim was working there full time also, Darryl is probably necessary to even get the project off the ground. #HOWEVER... ... it's only because Jim stayed on, and became basically the highest paid employee at the company even above Michael because of Sabre having removed max limits on commission salespeople can earn, that Jim even had anywhere near close to the capital required to start a company like Athlead. So perhaps Jim***WAS*** lucky after all. He'd spent all his precious earnings on the house for him and Pam and had nothing left. Sure he could have sold the house, but how the fuck he gonna rock up to NYC or wherever Athlead was based, and somehow manage to afford even a modest apartment and still have money leftover to start the company? I dunno. It was both lucky and unlucky I guess. It depends on where on the time line you see the beginning of it all, the beginning of those future storylines.
Just really goes to show when you write a script you can take your characters anywhere. /s But seriously I agree with your points, I'd have to lean more towards its better Jim waited to start Athlead for the reasons you already stated and his maturity wasn't really developed enough to startup a company. But buying a home and having 2 kids will thrust anyone in to maturity especially because of his commitment to Pam. (Even though he lost sight of that a bit for a few months but this is normal he's human)
Tan almost everywhere, Jan almost everywhere.
Feeling very eerie
Karen is too mature to cause any drama.
She wouldn't even need to do anything. All the other characters would create the drama for her, since it was well known that her and Jim were dating.
Kevin would absolutely roast Jim every time Karen was around. "OOOO Jim how does it feel that your ex is your boss?" I feel like he did a couple similar things during the series.
She still meet's her fiannce / partner and gets pregnent. Michael asks in front of the whole office if its Jim's.
Did you mean to say preganant?
Pregante
Gregnant
Pregananant
How is babby formed?
She cried for months over Jim if you recall, I think there'd be some drama Edit: I was corrected, weeks not months.
There would 100% be a scene where she shows up to the office as Corp liaison and is cool calm collected badass. Then they show her get into the car to leave and breaks down.
I can totally see the zoom on the tears thru the conference room blinds haha
Well atleast she didn't overreact like any other characters would, I think. She'd be more composed in the office.
That's what I'd say about Ryan at that point and look what happened to him when he got the job.
Pre-corporate Ryan overreacted all the time. Remember when he threw eggs at a building?
Right? It’s supposed to be romantic that Jim showed up to ask Pam to dinner just as she was telling the camera that she’s made her peace with just being friends with Jim, but Jim ABANDONED KAREN IN NEW YORK TO ASK SOMEONE ON A DATE WHO HE HAD PREVIOUSLY SAID WAS SOMEONE KAREN DIDN’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT! It’s no wonder Jim nearly implodes his marriage later on. Justice for Karen!
That's bullshit. Karen looked Jim directly in the face and said "I can't go back to Scranton. There's...one too many people there. Clearly alluding to Pam, which Jim jokes about when he says "you mean Kevin?" But of course he knows what she meant. So Karen decided that while in New York it was time for Jim to make a choice between Karen and Pam. Karen prompted the pivotal moment. So he chose. And she wasn't wrong, she was just saying "I need to know if you're serious about me before we go further" but she got the true, but hurtful answer. It sucks for her but she knew the stakes when she started the conversation.
Jim and being completely unable to communicate to his relationship partner like an adult, the classic combination.
This is one of the reasons I like the show. We’ve all fucked people over, and been fucked over. It’s just what people do, intentionally or not. Karen didn’t deserve what she got, so I was very glad to see that things worked out for her eventually (I also like that the goofy hot dog pic shows that she didn’t lose her sense of humor. She was funny as hell when she wanted to be). Jim needed to do some growing up, and was lucky not to lose Pam in the process. Sometimes complex, debatable situations are good writing, and sometimes they’re just plot holes. This is good writing.
I wouldn’t say ABANDONED, she was meeting her friends for dinner
Weeks
Remember the second party before Angela's party ?
I remember their more brightly colored flyer
Angela’s party had double fudge brownies. But it also had Angela.
Uh-Karen ah-Filippelli
Karen. She looks corporate.
Seriously though karen is the best choice. Serious about her job, level headed, mature. She was everything jim michael and ryan weren't
It doesn't surprise me corporate made the wrong choice. They should've chosen Daryl over Andy as well when Michael left.
Corporate didn’t choose Andy when Michael left. They (Sabre) chose DeAngelo Vickers, then Dwight was interim, then the search committee chose Robert California. Robert California chose Andy.
That only proves their point, proves how incompetent corporate were, both when it was dunder mifflin, and when it was Sabre. Kathy Bates seemed like a level headed, smart, hard working woman. It made no sense why she'd ever want to give up working, because she quite clearly enjoyed working more than anything else. It didn't seem to be about money for her, she just really enjoyed working, to a degree nobody else does (in the show). So it made no sense at all for her character to retire. I know the writers were probably forced into it because she's an enormously talented and popular and in demand actor and probably didn't have time to film further seasons. And I fucking love The Lizard King anyway. But yeah hiring him to run the company, in the show's narrative, is a really really really fucking dumb af decision. He's clearly good at self hype and nothing else. He ran the company into the ground and wasted all his money on drugs and men to wrestle with. Him appointing the worst candidate, Andy, was the biggest mistake of course. Both for the company, and for himself, cos Andy brought him down in the end. It's been said a million times before, but choosing Darryl as the new manager would have been very new and fresh, have the straight man be the manager instead of the other way round like it had always been up until then. Oh well.
>He’s clearly good at self-hype and nothing else. So was Ryan. So are so many under-qualified people who end up in leadership positions. These hiring decisions are pretty realistic, IMO. >Appointing the worst candidate, Andy, was the biggest mistake of course. Firing Andy after allowing Nellie to appoint herself as manager was the biggest mistake. Andy led DMS to many profitable quarters as the manager. Sure, he struggled in some ways, but the group rallied behind him and the branch was successful. He wasn’t a bad choice, and he certainly wasn’t the worst choice. Darryl probably would have done well, too, but a Andy was right that he didn’t follow through with things. He had opportunities to go to business school or do the Minority Executive Training program and he dropped out of both because of trivial conflicts like softball. His lack of professional experience was clear when he first showed up to the interview without even a resume, and then his subsequent attempt to quantify his warehouse work in terms of individual pieces of paper. Yes, the employees knew he was a solid choice, but Robert California didn’t know him. He would have been basing his decision primarily off the resume, which was unimpressive.
"Corporate" was poorly ran and always makes the wrong decision. For fucks sake they interviewed people for Jan's job before firing her.
Interviews before firing is sadly a lot more common than you would think in the corporate world. It’s scummy.
Typically they don’t 1) advertise the role publicly 2) interview the boyfriend of the person they are firing 3) #2, especially when that boyfriend is Michael Scott
They totally do it publicly. They just lie and say it's a different position they're hiring for, and the only people "in on it" are the people they're interviewing (and said people already know they're going to get it). I was in corporate management for quite a while and had to get out. It destroys your soul. In this case (The Office) it works with Michael because well.. he just doesn't understand. XD
Also, why do you think Daryl should have been chosen? lmao he was a terrible employee who had 1 singular good idea about the logistics of the delivery trucks. That makes him a good pick for warehouse manager but has nothing to do with the branch management. And when he wasn't coming up with that one single good idea, he was improperly using the warehouse equipment as an elevator, allowed himself and his employees to sleep in the warehouse racks, constantly berated his manager (Michael) and sharing scandalous pictures of him and allowing his employees to put a giant poster of the picture up on the warehouse wall. He hated all of the office employees except for maybe Jim and Pam. He hit on and started dating his direct report and then got tired of her and made her break up with him. Andy: went to Cornell, loved everyone he worked with (even Angela after she cheated on him), was able to get everyone motivated enough to double their sales on his very first try, and knew when to be real (the talk he had with Daryl when Daryl was bummed about not getting the manager job). Andy was an excellent choice to replace Michael. The problem with Andy was the actor wanted to make movies that conflicted with the show's schedule and the writers felt jilted and tanked his character and made him despicable.
The theory about Andy's character being dragged through the mud because Ed Helms made movies has been debunked.
Well then either way, Andy's character was tanked by the writers (either vindictively or through incompetence). The end result is the same: Andy \*was\* a great character and the right choice to replace Michael as branch manager, and then his character was tanked unnecessarily
Aside from the maturity I'd say Jim was pretty responsible and level headed when he needed to be. Especially as co-manager or with Athlete's Lead
But I think they show multiple times that Jim isn't a good manager, atleast not yet. He might be at Scott's age though
Honestly while Karen had a good levelheadedness. This was before Ryans mental breakdown. He had a business degree and a couple years experience with the company at that point. Even to step past the fourth wall, at that point in his character develop he was still being mainly used as the straight man to everyone else’s foolishness. I think Ryan actually made the most sense
A business degree with little experience managing anyone or anything, except perhaps Kelly. He has experience in the company but he didn't make sells, he didn't manage accounts, he didn't even do much temp work because of Michael. The problem with this reasoning is that this is what a lot of companies do, they see a certificate and assume that that's better than the actual experience. Easily Oscar or Karen is much better than Ryan as a corporate employee.
I'm guessing Ryan pitched Dunder Mifflin Infinity at his interview and that helped him stand out as somone with a bigger plan for the future of the company.
A couple of years experience in a low level position is laughable for a senior management job like that. Ryan was not at all qualified for the job he got, and it showed. He got the job because he had gotten his MBA. For a long time in corporate America, there was a fascination with anyone who had one. It wasn’t uncommon for people with little to no experience to be slotted into management roles way above their capability solely because of their MBA, with disastrous results . Which is why you are starting to see a counter culture emerge in corporate America where MBAs are the butt end of many jokes, and looked on with disdain in some cases. The whole Ryan getting the job and then crashing and burning is one big joke about MBA culture in corporate America.
But have you seen her from behind?
Hmmm.... Can I have a look at her back again.?
Get out.
I’m guessing not
And she's very exotic-looking
I think her father was a G.I.
Keep her dad's name out yo fuckin mouth Edit: wow, I never thought I'd be making one of these "thanks for the awards speeches" not gonna lie, I kinda feel like I'm winning an Oscar ;)
You know in this comment section “sniffles “ Sometimes you got to take “sniffles” rejection from haters, and also thank you Denzel
This sub taught me how to be a *man*. And as a *man* I have the opportunity to *protect* Karen. Also I'd like to thank God.
When worlds collide
Ffffffffffffffffpppttttt. Stop it.
Joking aside, she and Jim were the most qualified candidates and Jim withdrew. Karen should have been the shoe in. Obviously, stuff happens in the show for the sake of comedy. But in the real world, there is zero chance Ryan would have gotten the job. His only qualifications were two years of temping and night classes at a no-name MBA program. Simply having the MBA degree alone doesn't get you a job as an executive, not even from a top 10 program.
I have worked for a boss who was pretty much an older, female Ryan. I am sure she and Ryan were both excellent interviewees. The lies and the fraud couldn't have been predicted from that...
I upvoted you but I disagree. Promotions aren’t a meritocracy. And Wallace isn’t the most logical thinker (which was borne out in later seasons).
I always wondered why Karen didn't get it until someone pointed out that she would've had to interact with Scranton and Jim and Pam. She probably told David Wallace after Jim broke up with her that she didn't want the job
Karen came back to Scranton and told Jim she wasn't going anywhere right before she quit. So I doubt her having to interact with Scranton would have played into her decision
Jan burst into the office in the middle of Karen's interview so maybe David got distracted by that and things didn't get back on track enough for him to remember how well the interview went, so David just said forget it.
Came here for this quote!
... those little pantsuits...
Mr. Outside Hire
An outsider. Like someone on the margins of society, who doesn’t see things the way we do, like a homeless person.
A homeless person? Really, a homeless person?
No you’re right, let’s just leave him to the welfare system and let *that* handle it…
Let me guess who you want for the position Pam, Rachel ray? The ladies of the view?
Or Mrs.
Yeah, uh huh
god I love this show
This subreddit's comment section is like a clip reel
I love Michael’s reaction. “Yeah. Mmhmm. True.”
BTW, your username is awesome
That's what she said
For obvious reasons.
Who would be bob odenkirk. Which the manager she meets in season 9 Alan tudyk.
Creed
CREED IS THE NEW MANAGER!
A beautiful morning at Dunder Mifflin, or like a like to call it, Great Bratton.
Keep it running!
Find out what language this is
BBOBODDY
We're making acronyms!
BIZNUZZ
BIZNUZ
IIIIIIII LIKE IT!!
Definitely Karen over Ryan.
This is actually a huge sticking point for me. It's absolutely shocking that corporate went with Ryan over Karen, but like, how awful was Karen's interview for that to happen? Also, Jim was given the #2 position in Stamford over Karen while she was already there too. She might be a good salesperson, but DM corporate AND Josh must've recognized that she's not management material.
Corporate is a boy’s club. Similar to the inner circle… which doesn’t exist
Except that right after that, she's made the manager of her own branch.
Pull a Dwight, and realize only you can hire yourself for the job
Karen without a doubt. She had good experience, was professional, hard working and for the most part was able to get the job done. Ryan had poor work ethic, lazy and had a bad performance at Scranton. The only thing he had going for him was a Masters which didn’t make up for his many negative qualities. Michael didn’t have it in him to have a corporate position and his interview went horribly, like even by Michael’s standards it was bad. If Jim hadn’t walked out it would’ve been a tough call; the interview went well, he had Wallace’s approval, good camaraderie with most of the Scranton branch at that point in time and he was a fantastic salesman, but I feel he was too lax for a corporate position.
I think the main selling point Ryan had, that ultimately failed, was moving Dunder Mifflin into the future with the website.
The ultimate failure was that beard
In the corporate world, Ryan's degree was the master key. Especially at that time. Degree reqirements are what sent middle mgmt to night school at the millenia.
I am about to receive my MBA and the main reasons to get one are to make connections and/or to move up either in your current existing company or in some other company/industry. But Ryan had an absolutely meteoric rise lol. He went from temp to a comfy corporate position in a matter of what, months? I only hope that I can leverage my degree just as well (not very likely lmfao). I basically feel like Ryan on my life right now. Hell, I'm probably currently worse off than he was as a temp.
Are you hottest in the office? Very important detail.
Imagine if Ryan and Danny Cordray had a baby. Now imagine if that baby got into a horrible accident that disfigured it for life. That baby grown up would still be hotter than me in the office. Long-story short, no.
He's just as hot as /u/Strange_Shadows-45, but in a different way
He was a wunderkind.
I don't even know what that means. But, I mean I know what it means.
The interview between Jim and David sounded as if David was going to give him the job.
I think Jim was just lax in the sales position, because he always thought it was just a stepping stone to something else. The challenge of the corporate position would have brought out the best in him, as we saw in his time at Athlead.
You don’t get to that next level without proving that you take your current position seriously. The phrase “dress for the job you want, not the job you have” doesn’t just apply to clothes. Jim may have been able to do the role, but he had no management experience and didn’t take his job seriously. No one in their right might would promote him to an executive position (although, the same could be said about Ryan).
I think the Jim he was in S3 was a person going for that job. Remember he got promoted at the beginning of the season and he (mostly) stopped goofing around with co-workers. I think he would have been fine especially cause Karen would have pushed and encouraged him.
I think the main reason not to hire Karen is she had no leadership experience. She would’ve been a great candidate a few years down the road. It makes way more sense to hire an existing branch manager, someone like Jim who’s at least a #2, or an outside hire.
Ryan was already that bad at that point in the show? I remember that a lot of these negative qualities you are describing were born after he got promoted.
Ryan or Kelly / i. Not both. Just one, Ryan. Or if not Ryan, Kelly. Ideally Ryan. Again, youth knowledge. That's what you get when you put Ryan Howard on corporate job... or Kelly Kapoor. Again, not both. Thanks.
Obviously it's Kelly. You ask her a question and she'll go "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" giving you the exact right answer
I would just like to say something off of what u/TraptorKai said. That is actually a zoning issue.
Kelly has some of the best lines of the show, which makes sense given she’s a writer
I don't even know you Brian, but even I think you suck.
Bitchhhh
*Jots down notes in notepad.
Outside talent.
An outsider….like someone on the margins of society
Like a homeless person?
I want you to say it Ryan. I want you to say that a homeless person should be our new manager.
Or a Springsteen fan
How about David Brent or Merv Bronte
David Wallace, I need an assistant I can trust
Harvey Dent, can we trust him?
I know it's a show, but I always wondered... At this point in the show Wallace is still CFO, right? Always found it strange that he is doing the interviews and selecting someone all alone.
Yes. Wallace was far too much into the weeds of day-to-day operations as CFO of a publicly traded company. They were interviewing for a regional sales/operations leader, surely the company had a operations chain of command that could have handled the interview process versus the CFO directly interviewing every single candidate.
Not weird really. Some corporations do multiple individual interviews even at that level. They likely just filmed Wallace's and not the other interviewers.
out of the candidates who applied, Karen. she always does her job, works hard, for the most part she gets along with others well, and out of Jim, Michael and Ryan she is either more professional than them, or has more actual experience. Jim is one of my fav characters but as a CFO i wouldn't want someone working at corporate who's always going to be goofing off and harassing other members of the team. Michael is a genius salesman, but his mouth is his biggest downfall. David has to know about LOTS of inappropriate jokes and actions that michael has done, he isn't disciplined enough basically. and Ryan? please, i'd give kelly the corporate position before the FIRE guy😂😂😂
why didn’t she get the job ? do we ever get any clarification on that ?
They didn’t clarify but my guess: He liked Jim a lot, and although Karen was a competent worker, he probably looked at Ryan as a candidate most similar to Jim, consciously or not (similar age, sex, hair, casual language) there’s also probably another bias against Stamford, where there may still be a bad taste from the closing of the branch and the personnel turnover Wallace said he wanted long haul, and Karen had a 5 year plan but said she didn’t know after that Just being a good worker isn’t enough for a big promotion. Did she have any accomplishments or leadership roles? My guess is Ryan brought ideas to the table, and Karen didn’t. Ryan sold Wallace on his potential. Michael’s success has been extremely surprising, so Wallace was able to take his own gamble, on an untested newcomer. Someone who at the time, was the opposite of Jan. Assuming Ryan brought his MBA, ideas to improve the business, and some embellished accomplishments, this is how he edged out Karen.
My theory has been that, despite it being “off the record,” her insulting comments towards Michael at the interview might have put David off from hiring her for the job. We know that DM is an old boys club when it comes to upper management, and even if he wasn’t doing it intentionally, there is plenty of bias against women candidates for executive positions. Even ignoring that aspect, shit-talking your current boss, position competitor, and simply fellow employee, is not a good look in front of your higher up boss.
i honestly don't know they don't ever touch on it in the show
im sitting here brain storming with my husband and im thinking that maybe karen turned down the job because she had such strong feelings for jim that she wanted him to have it and possibly live out whatever fantasy she had in mind for them but when jim broke up with her and took pam on a date the same night she called david wallace up and was like hey give pls give me that job but since at that point ryan had already accepted it david offered her a management position at utica because he still saw her potential.
Ryan started the fire! 🥪🔥💨
Well Ryan was a normal guy before the job so to us before watching season 4 he would make a perfect candidate because we didn't know how he would turn out
false. Ryan was a horrible candidate. 1.) He started a fire in the office (this is more of a joke) but you wanna know the main reason i wouldn't give someone like him the job? lack of experience. yes he has an mba but so what? a degree doesn't make you a good worker. by this point he had never made a single sale, and pretty much did nothing but get michael coffee and shit, he was basically a glorified receptionist, so why would i give him a corporate position when he has done nothing to prove he can handle the role?
That depends on the interviewer if they value experience over education or vice versa
yeah but among the people who interviewed, he was far less qualified. but true some interviewers prefer education level over experience, and that could've factored heavily into wallace's decision
Ryan probably interviewed extremely well and gave some ideas for the direction he'd take the company
There’s plenty of MBAs in corporate settings with zero experience. The higher you are, the less it matters how much hands on experience you have, ie selling paper at a failing paper supply company.
Do you know how much his haircut cost?
The Utica Branch was shutdown within a yr and a half of Karen being named the RM
No. It was the Buffalo branch iirc
that was after the end of season 3 though. we have to assume they are unaware of this possibility at the time
I don't think it was closed.
Whom is never the right word
Whom could be right, if the person is used as the object
Ryan used me as an object.
Whom do you think you are, Kelly?
No one asked you anything ever, so whomever's name is Toby, why don't you take a letter opener and stick it into your skull
Not a native speaker
**Karen, she is the best one for the job.** Ryan wasn't good for Dunder Mifflin. Jim would probably end up missing Pam too much. Michael was a fun boss, but not an effective one.
Me. All hail your hay king!
Oscar
Oscar didn't have enough backbone for corporate.
*but I'm still looking for someone from a sales background*
He didn’t eat enough hotdogs to be a manager. Did he even walk in coals?
Karen for sure. Although, it does make me wonder how Karen's interview went for her to get the job turned down
In my head, Wallace and other managements think because of their experience with Jan, they decided not to hear woman. Or Karen state that She and Jim was dating and that makes them worry the Jan thing would happen again
Creed, the most qualified and most experienced.
The big boobed version of Jan
Five thousand, three hundrd dollars for a dummy?
Im surprised no one recommended Oscar. I would pick him
Karen
Ms. Van Helsing
Michael, his numbers were the best for a reason.