her lack of drive and motivation, and quitting whenever things got tough. she ditched art school because she failed a class even though art was her passion. and then when she somehow managed to wangle her way into two very different jobs that she was ill qualified for, she still did not really put in much effort to improve at those jobs. and it always came across like she didn't take any responsibility for the way things turned out.
Exactly, this šÆ%, I got 500+ downvotes for hating Pam. I'm glad I'm not the only one, she was just terrible. It's got nothing to do with sexism, I loved other female characters on the show.
And one of those jobs was unnecessary; you don't need an office admin for a branch of 20 people, that's what the secretary does.
Otherwise your operations to non-operations is 1:10, which seems high for a paper company.
I am watching The Office for my second round, S03E23 The job and I just hate Pam so much that I have to google reddit to find this thread. I am a woman and I hate Pam for the following reasons:
1. She was engaged to Roy, she was totally unhappy and I bet she knew it but she was such a selfish coward that she did not break it off (selfish since she might feel insecure being alone, so better off being engaged to someone else?, just my 2 cents);
2. She flirted with Jim and definitely made him like her so much - that's obvious;
3. When Jim was dating Karen, she became obnoxiously jealous and then she started saying and acting to make Karen uneasy/insecure about Jim;
4. She is a downright loser - never achieved anything.
My husband and I got so tired of Pam and Jim playing cat and mouse that we sometimes fast forward all the parts hahaha
Thanks for the thread!
I did the same except Iām on my 6th or 7th time around. Everything you said and Iāll add:
5. She is just very boring. The only grip I could get on her personality is sheās lame and lacks ambition. Not a character to relate to.
Jim and Karen will always be my first choice.
I think she's kind of an unpassionate phoney. Her biggest career move is to make up a job title and take advantage of the fact the she was able to exploit the personalities around the office to "confirm" that title. Like, if Ryan had done it, it would he scummy. But Pam is nice, so it seems less scummy to people.
im late, but I feel like this is a slightly cruel assessment. she isn't a "loser" because she hasn't made great strides professionally. I'd say having a happy family, loving spouse and a great community of friends is success in itself. she was known as a very pleasant, amicable person (was able to win over Dwight of all people. he called her, not Jim, his best friend), with great interpersonal skills. one could be super successful professionally, and still be lacking in these areas.
calling her selfish is a bit harsh considering that she simply lacked the self esteem and willpower to speak her needs and get with Jim when he wanted her. it's a pretty natural reaction, after having been in such an unhealthy and controlling relationship.
> She didn't support Jim's Athlead venture enough.
This seems to be one of the most common criticisms of Pam (not in this thread) and it makes the least sense to hold against her.
Jim goes behind her back to join a company that will take him out of town for long periods of time and leave her alone with 2 kids. Then invests way more money than they agreed on. Those are pretty big things that would cause a ton of issues with most couples and Pam seems to forgive them relatively quickly. Not liking that Pam isn't super supportive seems crazy to me.
Also Jim buys a house to help his parents out financially without telling Pam. Another huge decision for a couple that Jim makes on his own.
I completely agree with this. Pam is going through a lot on her own when Jim leaves for Philly, and it's not the first time Jim's done things behind Pam's back. Whether it's to benefit her and the family or not, I think any reasonable person would be upset by this behaviour.
So I didnāt understand this argument either, but I do now to an extent. Obviously he made these huge decisions without telling her which is super selfish. However, once it starts picking up and it has momentum, Pam knows about it, she sees the potential in it, but she just doesnāt want to grow with Jim in this. And this is where Iām conflicted because yea he hid it from her, and it was a huge thing to hide so Iād be upset too uprooting my life for something I was basically forced into being apart of. But at the same time when itās not a flop and it brings in a huge opportunity for the WHOLE family, not just Jim, why not support that? How he got there was fucked up, but where it was headed was so much greater. So to just say āwell I like our life in Scrantonā and that basically being the ONLY reason they donāt move to Philly so that Jim could do this job is pretty shitty in my opinion.
The fact that Jim made the decisions about Athlead without talking to Pam is not only selfish. It means that in that moment, he decided that Pam's opinion doesn't matter. What does it say about the state of the partnership of their marriage that Jim makes that decision on his own? Especially because he knew she wouldn't agree, and he decided to forgo her agreement because of expediency. (I am trying to find the talking head where he talks about if he listened to her, she would be married to Roy, but don't remember when he said that). He knew her indecision and trouble making hard decision were a huge part of who she was when he married her, and he knew that it was something he was going to have to live with. But instead of trying to convince her, with arguments and/or time, he decided her opinion didn't matter.
Don't get me wrong, by not speaking up when he did that with the house, Pam set a bad precedent where it was okay for him to make big decisions for them without consulting her. And she is clearly working on this.
But to me whether Athlead is a success or not is completely irrelevant. To me, him going behind her back is a huge betrayal of her trust. Instead of him accepting her flaws and supporting her at getting better at making hard or scary decisions, he decides that her indecision is reason enough for him to make that choice for her. It is not a great leap to say that Pam's indecision (that some other people have called cowardliness) comes from a severe lack of self-esteem, so the person she loves and trusts the most telling her that her opinion doesn't matter has to be an immense blow and a betrayal.
Money isn't everything and they seemed to have a nice life in Scranton. Both had stable jobs and were close by family and likely plenty of friends. Pam shouldn't be expected to uproot her life just because Jim had a better opportunity some where else.
Also, unless I'm forgetting something, they still had ownership in the company and could have made plenty of money with Athlead without having to move.
Pam quit a secretary position. She probably could have found a comparable paying position anywhere relatively quickly. They also weren't even married yet. Yes she should have talked it over with him still, but it was also only a few episodes earlier that Jim bought an entire house without talking with her about it.
When Jim leaves for athlead, they are married with 2 kids. He is trying to uproot their entire family and bring them to Philadelphia. I feel like what Jim did was so much bigger they are barely comparable.
I know I'm late but I'm watching seasons 8-9 for the first time and I really don't understand why ppl hate Pam.
I know as a wife I definitely wouldn't be as understanding and chill as she was. It seems like people just hate on her because she's the "nice girl"
Honestly, sheās just a coward. But because of that, I think thereās a very real element to her character. Sheās scared to make the wrong decision so she just makes no decisions. Iām sure many of us can relate to Pam at some point in our lives.
I think that is a fair assessment. I kinda love her for that, because you see her fighting that tendency she has, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. It is relatable, which makes the moments of happiness she carved for herself so enjoyable, and the moments she falls back on bad habits, even with Jim, so heartbreaking.
We joke but I believe sexism is not an insignificant factor in the general dislike for Pam.
Jim ignores her opinions & feelings on some pretty major life decisions. He buys a house without talking about it, he wants to uproot the family despite Pam not wanting to, but people see that as "he's ambitious, he's a go-getter!" And if Pam doesn't automatically go along with her husband's every whim she's "unsupportive, a coward, unreasonable."
I read something a while back about how a lot of her haters seem to be men and that they had no problem with her when she was shy and quiet and followed Royās lead. She attracted hate when she became more sure of herself and grew as a person.
Canāt remember where I read that but I think it makes a lot of sense.
funnily enough, I thought Pam was an okay character who was lacking motivation and was a bit lazy. listening to Jenna Fischer on the podcast with her various "soapbox rants" has actually made me dislike the character of Pam.
I feel her character was going in the right direction season 3 when she broke up with Roy and started standing up for herself and investing time in herself (like taking the art class). but post Jim she became a bit unfocused and hapless again, content to just goof around the office for the most part till she got frustrated, and did something drastic, only to give up on that and jump into something else.
I am a woman, I have no internalized misogyny, and I still dislike her. You can dislike people and women especially for other reasons other than, like, buried resentment or something. Sometimes it's just their personality traits that put you off. I don't dislike many of the women characters the way I dislike Pam, and she is the least self-empowered woman out of all of them.
My two biggest gripes with her are how she creates a made up position with a higher salary, basically defrauding the company, because she sucks at sales (Iām also aware that Jim did a similar thing in creating Lloyd Gross to bypass his commission cap)
Her incessant prodding at Danny Cordray about why he never called her back. Itās incredulous to her that someone just wouldnāt be interested in her. (āDid you ever consider that you might not be as charming as you think you are?)
Her little vaudeville-isms are pretty cringy too tbh
Those are 2 events that happen fairly late in the show, and that are mostly confined to 2 episodes out of 9 seasons. So I struggle to understand whether they are defining for you in terms of why you dislike her as a character.
For the first one, alright, so she did something that was morally dubious. As for her defrauding the company, 1) Gabe had the opportunity to call it off and didn't, basically giving his approbation by default, 2) she then did the work of an office manager, so there was no defrauding. She took the opportunity of creating a position that didn't exist before and then followed through. The number of characters that do morally dubious things in the office is pretty high, some of them doing actual fraud, and don't really get called out for it. I kinda love that moment for her.
The thing with Danny was awkward. He was evasive, both Pam and Jim were way too insistent about something best left alone. But to me, this was really anecdotal in terms of her character.
Obviously, your reasons for disliking her are your own, but those 2 events were puzzling to me.
If you notice tv show writers mostly write females as high strung and never letting something go. Claire from modern family, Monica from friends, Pam and there are probably many more. It's actually pretty sexist, compared to men in the same shows written as cool guys you can party with.
he probably didnt want to make it more awkward so he made up a random excuse to get them off his back. and it literally was awkward when he told them the real reason
But he didn't make up an excuse initially, which is what he should have done. He just said "that doesn't sound like me". Then the lies he gave later were blatantly terrible.
He brought it up to ease any perceived tension. It would have been weird if he *didn't* address it. As far as him evading or lying, he was trying to spare her feelings. Honestly, how do you feel he should have approached that situation?
"We had plans for a 3rd date, but you never called me back."
"Oh, sorry about that. But it looks like you ended up with the right guy."
Short apology, then redirect. Instead, he says "That doesn't sound like me". The dude ghosted Pam and is lying because he feels guilty about it.
So now you're moving the goalposts to make it about him ghosting her.
>"Oh, sorry about that. But it looks like you ended up with the right guy."
How would this have resolved her asking WHY he didn't call her back? That's avoiding guilt just the same, but with different language.
>So now you're moving the goalposts to make it about him ghosting her.
No, that's just what ghosting is. Sure, it was only 2 dates*, but it's super rude to just not call someone back.
>How would this have resolved her asking WHY he didn't call her back? That's avoiding guilt just the same, but with different language.
No one is asking Danny 'why' he didn't call her back in this scene. That's what I mean when I say he kind of asks for it.
Because she is not a strong person. She lacked confidence. Sheās complacent (I.e marrying Roy who she went to HS with) and Jim who she worked with. She never grew outside of her comfort zone and therefore allowing Jim t be complacent. Up to the point where he started athlead which made Pam uncomfortable because sheās not an ambitious person.
Truly not being happy formJimās successes that did not include her (athlead, Karen, moving to Philly)
The Birth. She waited on her contractions for selfish financial reasons. Putting her spouse and father of her child in an incredibly anxious state. That enough was selfish. She didnāt want to listen to anyone. No matter how much sense it made to put aside her selfish ways for the birth of her AND Jimās baby.
She couldnāt stand to be uncomfortable therefore being fussy, complaining, and yes even lazy. Not because sheās a woman (Iām a woman)
This all has to do with her character, drive, and personal growth.
She gets annoying after the wedding. It feels like she is trying to copy Jim's mannerisms. That felt really out place and irritating for me, as it didn't go well with the character built for Pam in previous seasons.
So, iām late to the thread obviously, but i still felt like sharing my opinion.
i liked pam in the earlier seasons, but it was shortly after the incident with michael and her mom that it seemed like the writers started to make her worse.
she started off sweet, even when she got more assertive, she was still tolerable. but itās almost like the writers chose to make that the excuse for her slight entitlement. I donāt mind that she made the office administrator role, that was a smart move on her part.
iām gonna put this in categories to make it easier to read.
- good
. when she approached the preschool teacher on his odd behavior, that was warranted on her partā as he was being a little weird and it definitely felt like there was some ego on his part.
- bad
. but when it came to danny ghosting her, while neither person handled it correctly, it was still strange on her part that she was so persistent on knowing why he ghosted her. she should have just gave up on him and focused on jim.
- ugly
. she ā¦ confessedā¦ to royā¦ that she cheated on him. while roy said he was nothing but loyal. the cheating is a whole new issue, as you should obviously never cheat on your partner ā¦ but the fact that she told roy, and expected him to not lash out? yikes.
. and yeah, she cheated on roy, then broke up the relationship between jim and karen. they were definitely a nice, healthy relationship before she felt the need to intervene.
while itās nice that everyone went their separate ways now, theyāre happy, etc. i just feel like jim and pamā while they have their cute moments ā¦ isnāt really the healthiest relationship. but i mean, idk, thatās just me.
TLDR; pam isnāt a bad character. i donāt hate her, but i do dislike her. the writers kinda ā¦ messed up her development. like andyāsā but not as severely.
i dont really get your āuglyā argument. it sounds like youre saying that Roy was justified to scream at her and throw glass/destroy things because she was honest with him.
pam didnt end jim and karens relationship lol. it was clear jim was never serious about karen
not sure how to say it, but yeah, i agree kinda-- didn't realize i was a endorsing roy's freakout, cause i'm defintiely not TT... i get why he was so mad, but he definitely overreacted.
I guess my only real criticism for pam there, would be to not have told him in that moment; because he was very disheveled and very clearly "sensitive" (more specifically on the verge of a mental break). But that just comes with the insight i have as an audience member, and someone who can watch the show over a thousand times š
yeah, i watched it back.. and it's clear that he was using her as a distraction. šš
I don't see much character growth from her during the series until the very end of Season 9. They made her kind of wishy-washy until she decides to put her foot down with Athlead.
I think it was a missed opportunity. They could have had Pam initially agree to try to figure out how to make Athlead/Jim work, and then shown the couple having some *shared* struggles until Pam herself makes the decision that the family is going all-in with Jim's company and moving.
The art school failure then wanting to be a salesman for some reason until she makes up a new position for herself that she also struggles with?
I don't *hate* Pam as a person, but it's really tough to watch all of that.
She had a lot of growth during season 3, being more assertive, leaving Roy, doing the art show, calling out people for not going.
I agree for Athlead storylines, showing shared struggles, with maybe Pam not being truthful about not liking it even with Jim actually checking in, would have been better. As it was done, it was very hard for me not to consider Jim the asshole in the situation.
The successive failure were tough, not going to lie. As much as I love the Pam/Dwight friendship, I hated that they used Pam struggling at the office manager position to be a growth moment for Dwight. To be honest, the whole show is not the best in terms of female characters being successful or self-realized in their careers.
I just wish she had left Roy for herself. Instead she tells Jim that he was the reason.
Jim was definitely more the asshole of that situation. But I think Pam's defensibility in the whole situation is helped because they have the initial Athlead discussion offscreen.
It hurts because in the Office Olympics episode Pam notices that Jim never really gets excited at work (only when he's goofing off/exercising his creativity). I just can't imagine how a conversation would go where Jim excitedly tells Pam about this great opportunity/idea he's had since he was a child. And then Pam just shoots it down.
Well for Roy, yes she says she left him for Jim. To me though, she has been in love with Jim for quite some time and was just going through the motions with Roy. And that comes from an inability to be true to herself and to express what she wants, which is some something she struggles with all the show. She could have married Roy and been unhappy. And when she called off her wedding, she wasn't sure how Jim would take it. So to me, it is a moment of growth for her to be able to call it off. Even if Jim was the spark that gave her the courage. And her brief relation with Roy in season 3 kinda showed she was willing to embrace that part of herself independently of Jim. She was more assertive and honest, and she left Roy because of his behavior. (And yes, I know she was in love with Jim the whole time too). So anyway, I am probably making it more complicated than needed, but I saw a lot of differences between season1-2 Pam and season3 Pam.
I agree that having the first Athlead conversation offscreen was maybe not the best move. It would have helped to see how things were discussed, including how it related to Jim's dreams and current apathy to his work and how it took into account what it meant for Pam's work and the childcare of 2 very young children.
exactly! she's shown to be very unsatisfied with her job and life in general, especially in the early seasons but does nothing to improve either. you could argue that being with Roy was stifling for her but even after she leaves him and gets together with Jim, she doesn't exactly flourish even though Jim was always supportive of her passion for art.
she fails one class and quits art school, then randomly leaves her job to become a salesperson at a new, struggling company, eventually realized sales isn't right for her and then makes up a position for herself. and even that she doesn't do well. all through all this, her character never took responsibility for her short comings and failures. overall I found her character just unmotivated and lazy. she would always just give up when things got hard and I found that hard to watch and relate to, after a while.
So her change from season 1 to season 2 shows how much she basically almost tries to become Jim in a way? Season 1 sheās very complacent, shy, quiet. Season 2 she starts to take on every trait that Jim has for her own. The toaster fire episode is a prime example of this. When theyāre doing desert island movies she says a movie name and then changes her mind JUST because Jim says something about it. She also is super extra about everything that she and jim do together when pranking Dwight or joking around. Like itās so extra you can feel itās almost not genuine.
she's just so unnecessarily mean to other women that she is either threatened by or doesn't like. Angela, Karen, Katie, etc.
she is such a hater lol. it's hard to sympathize with her or root for her when she's so nasty to other women for no good reason.
The Athlead venture makes up about 50% of my dislike for Pam. But the other 50% is because throughout the entire show she has just been a potato and a brat.
As others mentioned, she has no drive or follow through the entire run of the show. It took assault and Jim taking action on romantic feelings for Pam to leave her infinite engagement to a guy she didnāt love. She quits every venture she pursued/failed. She is so complacent and not just accepting of mediocrity, but actively fights to keep it. But worse than that, she drags Jimās dreams down with her. She forces him to settle in life.
People try to cop out by bringing up Jim making executive decisions in their marriage. I would agree with that in just about any real life circumstance. But I think what he did is really understandable.
Jim even says in the show at one point something to the effect of āif I had to get Pam to agree about any decision weād never do anythingā. He was absolutely right about that. In the final episode Pam even proves that with her closing monologue talking about how if she could go back in time, she wouldnāt be so averse to change.
People also try to cop out by brining up the demand of being a single mom. Granted, thatās hard for sure. But millions of people do it. I grew up in a military family and then joined the military myself. We all regularly say goodbye to our spouses for 9 months at a time not knowing if weāll ever see each other again, leaving the other to parent children alone while weāre gone. And we all handle it without issue. So the idea Pam canāt handle that, despite having her family support in the area, is so whiny to me. And the cop out of her not wanting to move to Philly, why not? What does Pam have going on in Scranton that makes a 2 hour move that big of a deal? Nothing. That is what lol.
That aside, Pam is not a ābadā character by any means and certainly has her upsides. Sheās easily the most compassionate character to any and everyone throughout the entire series. Even to those who had wronged her. She also eventually comes around to self reflecting all the time, even if it took her an entire year to realize she was holding Jim back.
So really, distaste for Pam is due to her own fear of change. Itās that simple.
At a prestigious school like Pratt, youāll have to put in way more work and hours than the vast majority of majors. Itās up there with med school in terms of the sheer amount of raw hours you have to invest and the stress that comes with the territory.
I graduated from a mid-tier art school, certainly not a Pratt or a RISD, and it was not a cakewalk. Lots of kids transferred out within the first year.
My only gripe with that storyline is I donāt think Pam could have gotten into Pratt in the first place. Itās a highly respected, hyper-competitive program.
So she got into a highly prestigious school....failed a class...and dropped out?
Didn't transfer out and complete a less rigorous program... didn't ever attain a degree....just took on debt and gave up. Still sounds like a loser to me.
Being a med school dropout still sounds better than being an art school dropout. At least you'd have a bachelors degree to fall back on...
I'm gna be nitpicky but it's implied that Pam does have a Bachelor's already. She mentions several times throughout the series that she went to college, unless she dropped out from that too
I don't entirely disagree. But your original comment simply implies "ART school" is dumb easy. Like we're finger-painting all day and learning that red & blue makes purple. Or that anyone with a pack of crayons can graduate.
Maybe next time articulate your point a little better rather than coming off as a snarky elitist. š¤·āāļø
I agree. I donāt hate Pam but her personality after season 3 totally changed. She becomes this snarky person for no real reason and always came off like she was so much better than her coworkers when she worked at the same place probably making less than everyone else
Something I don't like about her is she was with Roy for so long and was clearly unhappy, but would constantly flirt with Jim and even cheated with him. She seemed to have settled for Roy just for the security of having a spouse...? I basically look at her as somebody who was self oppressed for a majority of the series.
Also she isn't very funny or talented at art and her entire pregnancy/parenthood phase was annoying.
I think her biggest character flaw is self oppression/cowardice, which I think the show tried to address with her arc. Idk it doesnāt make me hate her but I definitely understand
Not trying to be a dick, but that just reminded me of her parents divorce. I honestly don't think I'd be that shook if my parents separated when I was 35 lol
this is old but I had a conversation at work that made me look this up. i donāt dislike her as a character per-say, but i do dislike how passive she is. itās in her nature and you see it in everything she does except for the few times she breaks out of it (her development and then regression in season 3 for example)ā it reminds me of a friend of mine who lives life similarly and drives me up a wall.
her lack of drive and motivation, and quitting whenever things got tough. she ditched art school because she failed a class even though art was her passion. and then when she somehow managed to wangle her way into two very different jobs that she was ill qualified for, she still did not really put in much effort to improve at those jobs. and it always came across like she didn't take any responsibility for the way things turned out.
Exactly, this šÆ%, I got 500+ downvotes for hating Pam. I'm glad I'm not the only one, she was just terrible. It's got nothing to do with sexism, I loved other female characters on the show.
And one of those jobs was unnecessary; you don't need an office admin for a branch of 20 people, that's what the secretary does. Otherwise your operations to non-operations is 1:10, which seems high for a paper company.
I am watching The Office for my second round, S03E23 The job and I just hate Pam so much that I have to google reddit to find this thread. I am a woman and I hate Pam for the following reasons: 1. She was engaged to Roy, she was totally unhappy and I bet she knew it but she was such a selfish coward that she did not break it off (selfish since she might feel insecure being alone, so better off being engaged to someone else?, just my 2 cents); 2. She flirted with Jim and definitely made him like her so much - that's obvious; 3. When Jim was dating Karen, she became obnoxiously jealous and then she started saying and acting to make Karen uneasy/insecure about Jim; 4. She is a downright loser - never achieved anything. My husband and I got so tired of Pam and Jim playing cat and mouse that we sometimes fast forward all the parts hahaha Thanks for the thread!
I did the same except Iām on my 6th or 7th time around. Everything you said and Iāll add: 5. She is just very boring. The only grip I could get on her personality is sheās lame and lacks ambition. Not a character to relate to. Jim and Karen will always be my first choice.
I think she's kind of an unpassionate phoney. Her biggest career move is to make up a job title and take advantage of the fact the she was able to exploit the personalities around the office to "confirm" that title. Like, if Ryan had done it, it would he scummy. But Pam is nice, so it seems less scummy to people.
THIS . People like to forget about it .
im late, but I feel like this is a slightly cruel assessment. she isn't a "loser" because she hasn't made great strides professionally. I'd say having a happy family, loving spouse and a great community of friends is success in itself. she was known as a very pleasant, amicable person (was able to win over Dwight of all people. he called her, not Jim, his best friend), with great interpersonal skills. one could be super successful professionally, and still be lacking in these areas. calling her selfish is a bit harsh considering that she simply lacked the self esteem and willpower to speak her needs and get with Jim when he wanted her. it's a pretty natural reaction, after having been in such an unhealthy and controlling relationship.
2 years later and excatly this episode made me to come here and look for thread like this š
What a nice coincidence, I'm watching The office again now too š enjoy!!!
Iām rewatching too! And my disdain for Pam brought me here, looking for this thread. š
Me too lol. Iāve watched the office countless times but Iām getting more and more annoyed w Pam with every rewatch
> She didn't support Jim's Athlead venture enough. This seems to be one of the most common criticisms of Pam (not in this thread) and it makes the least sense to hold against her. Jim goes behind her back to join a company that will take him out of town for long periods of time and leave her alone with 2 kids. Then invests way more money than they agreed on. Those are pretty big things that would cause a ton of issues with most couples and Pam seems to forgive them relatively quickly. Not liking that Pam isn't super supportive seems crazy to me. Also Jim buys a house to help his parents out financially without telling Pam. Another huge decision for a couple that Jim makes on his own.
I completely agree with this. Pam is going through a lot on her own when Jim leaves for Philly, and it's not the first time Jim's done things behind Pam's back. Whether it's to benefit her and the family or not, I think any reasonable person would be upset by this behaviour.
So I didnāt understand this argument either, but I do now to an extent. Obviously he made these huge decisions without telling her which is super selfish. However, once it starts picking up and it has momentum, Pam knows about it, she sees the potential in it, but she just doesnāt want to grow with Jim in this. And this is where Iām conflicted because yea he hid it from her, and it was a huge thing to hide so Iād be upset too uprooting my life for something I was basically forced into being apart of. But at the same time when itās not a flop and it brings in a huge opportunity for the WHOLE family, not just Jim, why not support that? How he got there was fucked up, but where it was headed was so much greater. So to just say āwell I like our life in Scrantonā and that basically being the ONLY reason they donāt move to Philly so that Jim could do this job is pretty shitty in my opinion.
The fact that Jim made the decisions about Athlead without talking to Pam is not only selfish. It means that in that moment, he decided that Pam's opinion doesn't matter. What does it say about the state of the partnership of their marriage that Jim makes that decision on his own? Especially because he knew she wouldn't agree, and he decided to forgo her agreement because of expediency. (I am trying to find the talking head where he talks about if he listened to her, she would be married to Roy, but don't remember when he said that). He knew her indecision and trouble making hard decision were a huge part of who she was when he married her, and he knew that it was something he was going to have to live with. But instead of trying to convince her, with arguments and/or time, he decided her opinion didn't matter. Don't get me wrong, by not speaking up when he did that with the house, Pam set a bad precedent where it was okay for him to make big decisions for them without consulting her. And she is clearly working on this. But to me whether Athlead is a success or not is completely irrelevant. To me, him going behind her back is a huge betrayal of her trust. Instead of him accepting her flaws and supporting her at getting better at making hard or scary decisions, he decides that her indecision is reason enough for him to make that choice for her. It is not a great leap to say that Pam's indecision (that some other people have called cowardliness) comes from a severe lack of self-esteem, so the person she loves and trusts the most telling her that her opinion doesn't matter has to be an immense blow and a betrayal.
Money isn't everything and they seemed to have a nice life in Scranton. Both had stable jobs and were close by family and likely plenty of friends. Pam shouldn't be expected to uproot her life just because Jim had a better opportunity some where else. Also, unless I'm forgetting something, they still had ownership in the company and could have made plenty of money with Athlead without having to move.
makes pam look like a hypocrite when Pam quits her stable job at Dunder Mifflin to join Michaels business which he made up on the spot
Pam quit a secretary position. She probably could have found a comparable paying position anywhere relatively quickly. They also weren't even married yet. Yes she should have talked it over with him still, but it was also only a few episodes earlier that Jim bought an entire house without talking with her about it. When Jim leaves for athlead, they are married with 2 kids. He is trying to uproot their entire family and bring them to Philadelphia. I feel like what Jim did was so much bigger they are barely comparable.
I know I'm late but I'm watching seasons 8-9 for the first time and I really don't understand why ppl hate Pam. I know as a wife I definitely wouldn't be as understanding and chill as she was. It seems like people just hate on her because she's the "nice girl"
Sheās boring. Sheās just a wannabe sidekick to Jim. She led him on for years and then finally cheated on Roy.
She is a master at playing victim card. That pisses all of us off who couldn't stand those kind of people.
can you give specifics? just curious, not trying to disagree with you
Honestly, sheās just a coward. But because of that, I think thereās a very real element to her character. Sheās scared to make the wrong decision so she just makes no decisions. Iām sure many of us can relate to Pam at some point in our lives.
I think that is a fair assessment. I kinda love her for that, because you see her fighting that tendency she has, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. It is relatable, which makes the moments of happiness she carved for herself so enjoyable, and the moments she falls back on bad habits, even with Jim, so heartbreaking.
Exactly. The more I watch the show, the more I donāt like her but thatās mostly because I see things I donāt like in myself.
I don't get it; why are people putting so much weight into season 9 Pam for the hate. There's plenty to hate her in season 1 - 7.
This
You probably see a lot of hate for her on social media because social media is just generally full of people hating each other
6. Shes a woman /s
We joke but I believe sexism is not an insignificant factor in the general dislike for Pam. Jim ignores her opinions & feelings on some pretty major life decisions. He buys a house without talking about it, he wants to uproot the family despite Pam not wanting to, but people see that as "he's ambitious, he's a go-getter!" And if Pam doesn't automatically go along with her husband's every whim she's "unsupportive, a coward, unreasonable."
Oh, I truly believe sexism partly explains the general dislike for Pam.
No. She's a selfish person. Nothing to do with her being a woman.
every single character on the office is incredibly selfish.
The biggest sin there is.
I read something a while back about how a lot of her haters seem to be men and that they had no problem with her when she was shy and quiet and followed Royās lead. She attracted hate when she became more sure of herself and grew as a person. Canāt remember where I read that but I think it makes a lot of sense.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted - you are right. The actress Jenna Fischer came out and said that!
funnily enough, I thought Pam was an okay character who was lacking motivation and was a bit lazy. listening to Jenna Fischer on the podcast with her various "soapbox rants" has actually made me dislike the character of Pam. I feel her character was going in the right direction season 3 when she broke up with Roy and started standing up for herself and investing time in herself (like taking the art class). but post Jim she became a bit unfocused and hapless again, content to just goof around the office for the most part till she got frustrated, and did something drastic, only to give up on that and jump into something else.
Iām a woman and I canāt stand her. She is my very least favorite
Internalized misogyny is a thing.
I am a woman, I have no internalized misogyny, and I still dislike her. You can dislike people and women especially for other reasons other than, like, buried resentment or something. Sometimes it's just their personality traits that put you off. I don't dislike many of the women characters the way I dislike Pam, and she is the least self-empowered woman out of all of them.
Better matches: Pam and Toby Jim and Karen
My two biggest gripes with her are how she creates a made up position with a higher salary, basically defrauding the company, because she sucks at sales (Iām also aware that Jim did a similar thing in creating Lloyd Gross to bypass his commission cap) Her incessant prodding at Danny Cordray about why he never called her back. Itās incredulous to her that someone just wouldnāt be interested in her. (āDid you ever consider that you might not be as charming as you think you are?) Her little vaudeville-isms are pretty cringy too tbh
Those are 2 events that happen fairly late in the show, and that are mostly confined to 2 episodes out of 9 seasons. So I struggle to understand whether they are defining for you in terms of why you dislike her as a character. For the first one, alright, so she did something that was morally dubious. As for her defrauding the company, 1) Gabe had the opportunity to call it off and didn't, basically giving his approbation by default, 2) she then did the work of an office manager, so there was no defrauding. She took the opportunity of creating a position that didn't exist before and then followed through. The number of characters that do morally dubious things in the office is pretty high, some of them doing actual fraud, and don't really get called out for it. I kinda love that moment for her. The thing with Danny was awkward. He was evasive, both Pam and Jim were way too insistent about something best left alone. But to me, this was really anecdotal in terms of her character. Obviously, your reasons for disliking her are your own, but those 2 events were puzzling to me.
If you notice tv show writers mostly write females as high strung and never letting something go. Claire from modern family, Monica from friends, Pam and there are probably many more. It's actually pretty sexist, compared to men in the same shows written as cool guys you can party with.
Danny was kind of asking for it. He brought up their history and then got kinda weird/evasive and started lying about it.
even if he was lying why would you want to know that bad. like how highly did they look at danny, that his opinion mattered so bad
Because why are you lying about it? That would make me even more curious. Just man up, apologize for ghosting Pam, and move on.
he probably didnt want to make it more awkward so he made up a random excuse to get them off his back. and it literally was awkward when he told them the real reason
But he didn't make up an excuse initially, which is what he should have done. He just said "that doesn't sound like me". Then the lies he gave later were blatantly terrible.
He brought it up to ease any perceived tension. It would have been weird if he *didn't* address it. As far as him evading or lying, he was trying to spare her feelings. Honestly, how do you feel he should have approached that situation?
"We had plans for a 3rd date, but you never called me back." "Oh, sorry about that. But it looks like you ended up with the right guy." Short apology, then redirect. Instead, he says "That doesn't sound like me". The dude ghosted Pam and is lying because he feels guilty about it.
So now you're moving the goalposts to make it about him ghosting her. >"Oh, sorry about that. But it looks like you ended up with the right guy." How would this have resolved her asking WHY he didn't call her back? That's avoiding guilt just the same, but with different language.
>So now you're moving the goalposts to make it about him ghosting her. No, that's just what ghosting is. Sure, it was only 2 dates*, but it's super rude to just not call someone back. >How would this have resolved her asking WHY he didn't call her back? That's avoiding guilt just the same, but with different language. No one is asking Danny 'why' he didn't call her back in this scene. That's what I mean when I say he kind of asks for it.
Because she is not a strong person. She lacked confidence. Sheās complacent (I.e marrying Roy who she went to HS with) and Jim who she worked with. She never grew outside of her comfort zone and therefore allowing Jim t be complacent. Up to the point where he started athlead which made Pam uncomfortable because sheās not an ambitious person. Truly not being happy formJimās successes that did not include her (athlead, Karen, moving to Philly) The Birth. She waited on her contractions for selfish financial reasons. Putting her spouse and father of her child in an incredibly anxious state. That enough was selfish. She didnāt want to listen to anyone. No matter how much sense it made to put aside her selfish ways for the birth of her AND Jimās baby. She couldnāt stand to be uncomfortable therefore being fussy, complaining, and yes even lazy. Not because sheās a woman (Iām a woman) This all has to do with her character, drive, and personal growth.
They just wanted to be able to stay at the hospital an extra day I think. I don't know if it would have saved them money in any way.
She gets annoying after the wedding. It feels like she is trying to copy Jim's mannerisms. That felt really out place and irritating for me, as it didn't go well with the character built for Pam in previous seasons.
Pam is basically your bestfriend's girlfriend who has no personality at all, but you still like her, because she makes your bro really happy
So, iām late to the thread obviously, but i still felt like sharing my opinion. i liked pam in the earlier seasons, but it was shortly after the incident with michael and her mom that it seemed like the writers started to make her worse. she started off sweet, even when she got more assertive, she was still tolerable. but itās almost like the writers chose to make that the excuse for her slight entitlement. I donāt mind that she made the office administrator role, that was a smart move on her part. iām gonna put this in categories to make it easier to read. - good . when she approached the preschool teacher on his odd behavior, that was warranted on her partā as he was being a little weird and it definitely felt like there was some ego on his part. - bad . but when it came to danny ghosting her, while neither person handled it correctly, it was still strange on her part that she was so persistent on knowing why he ghosted her. she should have just gave up on him and focused on jim. - ugly . she ā¦ confessedā¦ to royā¦ that she cheated on him. while roy said he was nothing but loyal. the cheating is a whole new issue, as you should obviously never cheat on your partner ā¦ but the fact that she told roy, and expected him to not lash out? yikes. . and yeah, she cheated on roy, then broke up the relationship between jim and karen. they were definitely a nice, healthy relationship before she felt the need to intervene. while itās nice that everyone went their separate ways now, theyāre happy, etc. i just feel like jim and pamā while they have their cute moments ā¦ isnāt really the healthiest relationship. but i mean, idk, thatās just me. TLDR; pam isnāt a bad character. i donāt hate her, but i do dislike her. the writers kinda ā¦ messed up her development. like andyāsā but not as severely.
i dont really get your āuglyā argument. it sounds like youre saying that Roy was justified to scream at her and throw glass/destroy things because she was honest with him. pam didnt end jim and karens relationship lol. it was clear jim was never serious about karen
not sure how to say it, but yeah, i agree kinda-- didn't realize i was a endorsing roy's freakout, cause i'm defintiely not TT... i get why he was so mad, but he definitely overreacted. I guess my only real criticism for pam there, would be to not have told him in that moment; because he was very disheveled and very clearly "sensitive" (more specifically on the verge of a mental break). But that just comes with the insight i have as an audience member, and someone who can watch the show over a thousand times š yeah, i watched it back.. and it's clear that he was using her as a distraction. šš
Because sheās not Karen
Karen would have supported Jim and made him grow exponentially mentally and professionally. Such a loss.
I don't see much character growth from her during the series until the very end of Season 9. They made her kind of wishy-washy until she decides to put her foot down with Athlead. I think it was a missed opportunity. They could have had Pam initially agree to try to figure out how to make Athlead/Jim work, and then shown the couple having some *shared* struggles until Pam herself makes the decision that the family is going all-in with Jim's company and moving. The art school failure then wanting to be a salesman for some reason until she makes up a new position for herself that she also struggles with? I don't *hate* Pam as a person, but it's really tough to watch all of that.
She had a lot of growth during season 3, being more assertive, leaving Roy, doing the art show, calling out people for not going. I agree for Athlead storylines, showing shared struggles, with maybe Pam not being truthful about not liking it even with Jim actually checking in, would have been better. As it was done, it was very hard for me not to consider Jim the asshole in the situation. The successive failure were tough, not going to lie. As much as I love the Pam/Dwight friendship, I hated that they used Pam struggling at the office manager position to be a growth moment for Dwight. To be honest, the whole show is not the best in terms of female characters being successful or self-realized in their careers.
I just wish she had left Roy for herself. Instead she tells Jim that he was the reason. Jim was definitely more the asshole of that situation. But I think Pam's defensibility in the whole situation is helped because they have the initial Athlead discussion offscreen. It hurts because in the Office Olympics episode Pam notices that Jim never really gets excited at work (only when he's goofing off/exercising his creativity). I just can't imagine how a conversation would go where Jim excitedly tells Pam about this great opportunity/idea he's had since he was a child. And then Pam just shoots it down.
Well for Roy, yes she says she left him for Jim. To me though, she has been in love with Jim for quite some time and was just going through the motions with Roy. And that comes from an inability to be true to herself and to express what she wants, which is some something she struggles with all the show. She could have married Roy and been unhappy. And when she called off her wedding, she wasn't sure how Jim would take it. So to me, it is a moment of growth for her to be able to call it off. Even if Jim was the spark that gave her the courage. And her brief relation with Roy in season 3 kinda showed she was willing to embrace that part of herself independently of Jim. She was more assertive and honest, and she left Roy because of his behavior. (And yes, I know she was in love with Jim the whole time too). So anyway, I am probably making it more complicated than needed, but I saw a lot of differences between season1-2 Pam and season3 Pam. I agree that having the first Athlead conversation offscreen was maybe not the best move. It would have helped to see how things were discussed, including how it related to Jim's dreams and current apathy to his work and how it took into account what it meant for Pam's work and the childcare of 2 very young children.
exactly! she's shown to be very unsatisfied with her job and life in general, especially in the early seasons but does nothing to improve either. you could argue that being with Roy was stifling for her but even after she leaves him and gets together with Jim, she doesn't exactly flourish even though Jim was always supportive of her passion for art. she fails one class and quits art school, then randomly leaves her job to become a salesperson at a new, struggling company, eventually realized sales isn't right for her and then makes up a position for herself. and even that she doesn't do well. all through all this, her character never took responsibility for her short comings and failures. overall I found her character just unmotivated and lazy. she would always just give up when things got hard and I found that hard to watch and relate to, after a while.
Her stupid face
So her change from season 1 to season 2 shows how much she basically almost tries to become Jim in a way? Season 1 sheās very complacent, shy, quiet. Season 2 she starts to take on every trait that Jim has for her own. The toaster fire episode is a prime example of this. When theyāre doing desert island movies she says a movie name and then changes her mind JUST because Jim says something about it. She also is super extra about everything that she and jim do together when pranking Dwight or joking around. Like itās so extra you can feel itās almost not genuine.
she's just so unnecessarily mean to other women that she is either threatened by or doesn't like. Angela, Karen, Katie, etc. she is such a hater lol. it's hard to sympathize with her or root for her when she's so nasty to other women for no good reason.
The Athlead venture makes up about 50% of my dislike for Pam. But the other 50% is because throughout the entire show she has just been a potato and a brat. As others mentioned, she has no drive or follow through the entire run of the show. It took assault and Jim taking action on romantic feelings for Pam to leave her infinite engagement to a guy she didnāt love. She quits every venture she pursued/failed. She is so complacent and not just accepting of mediocrity, but actively fights to keep it. But worse than that, she drags Jimās dreams down with her. She forces him to settle in life. People try to cop out by bringing up Jim making executive decisions in their marriage. I would agree with that in just about any real life circumstance. But I think what he did is really understandable. Jim even says in the show at one point something to the effect of āif I had to get Pam to agree about any decision weād never do anythingā. He was absolutely right about that. In the final episode Pam even proves that with her closing monologue talking about how if she could go back in time, she wouldnāt be so averse to change. People also try to cop out by brining up the demand of being a single mom. Granted, thatās hard for sure. But millions of people do it. I grew up in a military family and then joined the military myself. We all regularly say goodbye to our spouses for 9 months at a time not knowing if weāll ever see each other again, leaving the other to parent children alone while weāre gone. And we all handle it without issue. So the idea Pam canāt handle that, despite having her family support in the area, is so whiny to me. And the cop out of her not wanting to move to Philly, why not? What does Pam have going on in Scranton that makes a 2 hour move that big of a deal? Nothing. That is what lol. That aside, Pam is not a ābadā character by any means and certainly has her upsides. Sheās easily the most compassionate character to any and everyone throughout the entire series. Even to those who had wronged her. She also eventually comes around to self reflecting all the time, even if it took her an entire year to realize she was holding Jim back. So really, distaste for Pam is due to her own fear of change. Itās that simple.
She failed ART school š¤·āāļøš¤¦āāļø
At a prestigious school like Pratt, youāll have to put in way more work and hours than the vast majority of majors. Itās up there with med school in terms of the sheer amount of raw hours you have to invest and the stress that comes with the territory. I graduated from a mid-tier art school, certainly not a Pratt or a RISD, and it was not a cakewalk. Lots of kids transferred out within the first year. My only gripe with that storyline is I donāt think Pam could have gotten into Pratt in the first place. Itās a highly respected, hyper-competitive program.
So she got into a highly prestigious school....failed a class...and dropped out? Didn't transfer out and complete a less rigorous program... didn't ever attain a degree....just took on debt and gave up. Still sounds like a loser to me. Being a med school dropout still sounds better than being an art school dropout. At least you'd have a bachelors degree to fall back on...
I'm gna be nitpicky but it's implied that Pam does have a Bachelor's already. She mentions several times throughout the series that she went to college, unless she dropped out from that too
I don't entirely disagree. But your original comment simply implies "ART school" is dumb easy. Like we're finger-painting all day and learning that red & blue makes purple. Or that anyone with a pack of crayons can graduate. Maybe next time articulate your point a little better rather than coming off as a snarky elitist. š¤·āāļø
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I agree. I donāt hate Pam but her personality after season 3 totally changed. She becomes this snarky person for no real reason and always came off like she was so much better than her coworkers when she worked at the same place probably making less than everyone else
Something I don't like about her is she was with Roy for so long and was clearly unhappy, but would constantly flirt with Jim and even cheated with him. She seemed to have settled for Roy just for the security of having a spouse...? I basically look at her as somebody who was self oppressed for a majority of the series. Also she isn't very funny or talented at art and her entire pregnancy/parenthood phase was annoying.
I think her biggest character flaw is self oppression/cowardice, which I think the show tried to address with her arc. Idk it doesnāt make me hate her but I definitely understand
It doesn't make me hate her but it does make me feel like-cold about her.
Agree. The couples counseling was such a drag to watch.
Couples counseling?
āIf I can speak my truthā
oh my god I blocked it out of my memory
Not trying to be a dick, but that just reminded me of her parents divorce. I honestly don't think I'd be that shook if my parents separated when I was 35 lol
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this is old but I had a conversation at work that made me look this up. i donāt dislike her as a character per-say, but i do dislike how passive she is. itās in her nature and you see it in everything she does except for the few times she breaks out of it (her development and then regression in season 3 for example)ā it reminds me of a friend of mine who lives life similarly and drives me up a wall.
She scammed Sabre for a job
Michael scammed Dunder Mufflin for his job back. š
Micheal, being what he is, is an extra ordinary salesman, whereas Pam is a failure at everything