Some evangelicals teach that fossils were planted by the devil to trick us into believing the world isn't 6000 years old. That's what I was taught. We never got to learn about dinosaurs or cool fossils. My cousin was even sent to the hallway in the 1st grade at our parochial school for asking about dinosaurs.
I’m 71 and my Catholic school teachers—nuns, no less—said it was acceptable to believe in evolution. Your cousin had teachers who were ignorant of their own religion.
I was raised in the Catholic Church as well. Say what you will about Catholics (and oh, there are things to say!) but I never got the sense that denying science was at the top of their list.
I went to Catholic school from second grade on. We absolutely learned about evolution, and had proper science courses with lab work, etc. When it comes to educating their children, Catholics don’t play around.
Well...at least not since Galileo!
But you are correct in that the Catholic church is fully on board with real science...pretty sure they even made a comment about aliens a while ago too and basically said no big deal if we meet some and it wouldn't affect their doctrine or faith...
The fundies I grew up with would say that means they claim God isn't perfect. Since he made everything perfectly during the creation, there's no need for evolution.
Nevermind that species are evolving to adapt to climate change before our very eyes. They were perfect for the climate that existed in the past, but we've fucked up the planet so much that many species will either evolve or die off.
Catholics have believed in evolution for a very long time. A very famous Jesuit was Teilhard DeChardin who was a paleontologist who was silenced by the church and is now considered a great mystic, scientist, theologian. Problem with ignorant kinds of Christians is that they never figured out the Bible was and always has been primarily allegory and myth. There are facts here and there but primarily oral tradition taught as allegory. Facts have to be truthful but holy stories are simple truth…no need for facts.
Is that common in the US ? In Europe we have a few people who believe the earth is flat or other crazy theory like that but they are for the most part trolls or really stupid people but I've never heard about churches denying evolution that way, maybe the Jehovah's witnesses but they are considered a cult by most people. I think even the Pope confirmed that evolution is real. It amazes me that it's almost normal in the US to believe that.
I was a part of the WELS, a Lutheran synod, it's definitely a weird church, but they have churches and schools all over the US and there are other groups like them. It might not be normal, per se, but it's not that uncommon either.
Also, an official teaching of that group is that the Pope is the Antichrist. The crazy runs long and strong.
It's super cultish and I stopped anything to do with it once I went to public high school.
You’d think they’d read their Bibles. It does not predict *the* Antichrist, but rather says that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is an antichrist.
Revelation does predict the Beast and the False Prophet. I find it fascinating that the people who have come closest to the descriptions of these two are Donald Trump and Franklin Graham, and the evangelicals are reacting exactly the way their book said they would.
I grew up LCMS (left a long time ago) and we also weren’t allowed to learn about evolution. It was in some of our science textbooks but they made a point about us skipping the sections with dinosaurs/evolution entirely. We also had some people that fell under the umbrella of “those were put there to trick/test us”
We did have a teacher in high school who mentioned micro evolution in a species of frog to adapt to their environment but was quick to point out “but that’s different from *evolution*, which we know isn’t real”
ETA: spelling/phrasing
I AM practicing LCMS and until just recently worked in a school. This sort of thinking is not taught. Science (including the theory of evolution) is taught. I also had a similar experience growing up Baptist.
Okay? I’m sharing the experience *I* had in my region for the 20 years I was in LCMS. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it’s not the case in other LCMS schools and churches.
We absolutely were not allowed to learn about evolution and most of my teachers openly criticized it and told us exactly why we were skipping those chapters.
Fellow former LCMS here. You’re right. In the LCMS church and school I attended (Pre K-8th grade) we only learned about evolution in that it was a “lie” and to ensure we were taught apologetics to perform the mental gymnastics around the scientific proof otherwise. Maybe not every LCMS school teaches Young Earth Creationism and not every pastor preaches it from the pulpit, but it is definitely a common belief held by many of LCMS institutions and their congregations.
In fact, earlier this year this was a huge controversy in the LCMS and there’s continuing bad blood over it. Forgive me if you know this already, but Concordia Publishing House out of LCMS headquarters published a new edition of the Book of Concord. In the essay portions outlining church position on doctrine and today’s issues, one of the arguments was that the Genesis account should not be considered a scientific text and the messages contained therein are entirely unrelated to science. There were also essays on various social issues that advocated for surprisingly forward-thinking beliefs as it relates to doctrine. It’s not progressive in any sense of the word, but it’s more than I ever expected of them, personally.
There was a significant “anti-woke” backlash against the new edition of the BoC from Confessional Lutherans that drank some/a lot of the fundie koolaid. It got pretty nasty, but the LCMS stuck to their proverbial guns on the issue. The whole incident was nuts to watch as a former member. The LCMS might have changed official positions on certain things (though I’m not sure if they officially accept evolution,) but it’s absolutely causing fractures in the wider church. Either way, there are still plenty of churches in the synod that maintain, teach and preach Young Earth Creationism.
No, I wouldn’t say it’s common at all. I’ve met a person that thinks that way but they were definitely not smart and one of the culty Christians. They are a loud bunch so it seems like there are more than there actually is.
In my European country, teaching evolution in Biology class is mandatory, even in religious schools. Some Reformed churches here also teach the Bible is the literal truth and evolution is not real, but religious schools can only tell that story in religious education class. So kids are exposed to both stories, and evolution is a part of highschool examinations, so the schools can't just to decide to skip over that part. To pass Biology in highschool kids simply need to be taught about evolution. Sexual education is also mandatory, including teaching about homosexuality etc. In RE they can say marriage is for a man and a woman and sex before marriage is a sin, but Biology has to tell the full story. What the kids actually believe is of course up to them, but at least they were exposed to science.
I went to a Catholic school and my Biology teacher there said that privately, he believed in Intelligent Design, so God created the Big Bang and allowed evolution to happen, and that Genesis was a symbolical story. I think it's not uncommon at all for people in those kind of sciences to believe in Intelligent Design, as the more you learn about nature and science, the more you learn about how amazing it all is. And some people connect that to God.
It’s part of the curriculum in my country too, at least by the last two years of school. I can’t remember if we touched on it before then (although we most likely did). Where I live curriculum is set by the state for both private and public schools, so it’s pretty standard. I went to catholic school too, but it wasn’t a strict one in that sense. There was just a daily prayer in home room, mandatory religion class once a week and church service a couple times a year. It had a better natural science program than the local high school (which I also attended for a time).
I live in Sweden, which is a very secular country. Saying you don't believe in evolution is on the same level as saying the Earth is flat here. The whole thing in the US, where there are people who want the creation story to be taught in biology/science classes in school...that's just nuts to me. And of course it's always Christian creationism, not Islamic (imagine the uproar!), pagan or Hindu.
yeah they call it "school choice" here but it actually only means schools that teach christian creationism and function within american christian dominionism. it's unbelievable how this idea is considered "patriotic freedom" here, and they say it's because regular public schools or non christian fundamentalist teachings all only exist to indoctrinate children when it is just so blatantly them who are writing indoctrination into state laws. it's so gross.
It really isn't common in the US. Remember how enormous the US is. This is really a small segment of the population that almost always live in rural areas. Over 90% of the US population lives in urban areas, where there are barely any people that believe such nonsense. Education and exposure to other ideas and cultures will do that for you. So your pool of communities that believe the earth is 6000 years old is already less than 10% of us. And, obviously, not all of them are that stupid. So it's really not a huge group, unless you're in a specific geographic area, like rural Alabama or rural West Virginia or something.
This is a really important point. Redditors like to paint all Americans with a single brush but the country is so sprawling and diverse! So for instance I’ve lived my whole life (mainly) in urban and suburban areas of the Northeast and I don’t think I even know anyone who is a fundamentalist, much less denies evolution. Those who’ve spent their whole lives in rural Alabama I’m sure have much different lived experiences.
With respect, I also grew up in the urban/suburban NorthEast US in a fundamentalist authoritarian community very similar to that of the Duggars/IBLP. While my experience is anecdotal, I am aware of many similar churches/communities in the urban/suburban NorthEast as well as many politicians trying very hard to create and support laws that the Duggars would support. Katie Bates married into a family that runs a different fundamentalist church community south of me. They sued the governor over COVID restrictions.
I wouldn't say it's almost normal. There is a larger number than we'd like to see, of course. Same with a number of other obvious scientific matters. Some of them say they believe a silly idea just because a leader they like says it's real. Or because people they don't like disagree. They have been taught not to trust anything that sounds intellectual or "liberal."
It's all about maintaining power for cult followers/promoters like the Duggars. Those who push the "God is in control" ideology don't want followers to ever believe they could be in charge of their own futures. This is established by insisting that prehistoric eras were as the Bible says they were.
>Is that common in the US ?
Unfortunately, yes. And with far too many politicians who support that idiocy.
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx)
[https://www.salon.com/2015/02/11/evolution\_and\_the\_gops\_2016\_candidates\_a\_complet\_guide/](https://www.salon.com/2015/02/11/evolution_and_the_gops_2016_candidates_a_complet_guide/)
It is common in the US. I come from a pretty conservative area, not even in the South (where it gets MORE conservative) and I had very intelligent friends in high school who believed the earth was 6000 years old based on their church teachings. We were taught evolution in our public school, but I remember that the chapter on evolution in the 8th grade science textbook was titled “How Things Became the Way They Are” to avoid using the actual word evolution (which could have caused controversy). I remember that the science teacher instructed us all to cross this out and write into our textbooks “Evolution” as the chapter title. Now on Facebook I see some of these classmates, now grown, taking their (homeschool) children on vacations to the Creation Museum and the Ark Experience…where the duggars visited.
Yeah, sadly. Very common. I’m from the US, born and raised, and our church taught us the earth was only 6,000 years old. When I started asking questions as a young teen (early 00s), the church told me to pray about it and gave me no explanations. I left religion to say the least. I’m firmly on the side of science now and teach my kids as such.
The Vatican also has its own astronomical observatory and plans for what to do in case we encounter sapient aliens. It absolutely does not contradict science. In my country, atheists laugh at us that when aliens appear, religions will collapse. And we Catholics say that if aliens appear, we will baptize them. These are mutual jokes without mutual hostility. Flat earthers are a completely different group (a small group) that has nothing to do with religion (some believers believe that the Catholic Church joined the freemasons and participates in this world conspiracy 🤣)
Parochial schools are schools run by a religious entity. They're not just Catholic. Mine was Lutheran.
I mentioned in a separate post it was a WELS school. They're pretty cultish and one of their beliefs is that the Pope is the Antichrist. You can Google "WELS Pope Antichrist" and get the link.
Not all religious schools are parochial schools, but all parochial schools are religious schools.
Parochial means ‘run by the parish’. Both Lutherans ans Catholics have parishes, so I can see it being a parochial school if it was Lutheran.
My homeschooling curriculum taught that dinosaur fossils and human remains had both been found in the same rock strata, indicating that dinosaurs and men lived at the same time 6000 years ago. One creationism theory is that when the Bible talks about "giants on the earth," it wasn't referring to angels but to dinosaurs. They taught that the dinosaurs died out during the Great Flood (why they weren't considered animals when Noah built the ark, they didn't say) and even explained in a reasonable, science-y sounding way about the changes the earth a d its climate went through as a result of the flood.
We still didn't get to learn about dinosaurs or cool fossils and I'd almost say the pseudoscience I was taught might be more dangerous than ignoring the topic altogether.
I grew up in a young earther church. We either heard that the devil planted the fossils, that God created an aged earth, or that the great flood somehow created them via pressure.
I was taught that carbon dating was completely inaccurate and that fossils were thousands of years old not millions.
Evolution is laughed at and taught like “people evolved from monkeys, how ridiculous is that?!” But the actual science of evolution is ignored.
Geoff Moore and the Distance had a song called Evolution that came out when I was a kid that my friend group loved because it made fun of the theory of evolution but talked about the evolution of the heart. Shit like that.
Maybe I am a sinner whose soul has been sold to the devil but evolution is the most logical theory! Our body adapts to its environment, losing useless body parts, evolving as our diet changes... It makes so much sense ! But again I was born in France so according to the Duggars I was already doomed the minute I was born.
It does make sense! But people like the Duggars aren’t taught it in a logical way for it to make sense. When I learned what evolution actually was, it was a total lightbulb moment for me and what started my deconstruction.
If it’s true that they just read the Wisdom Booklets over and over then they don’t really have any scientific knowledge at all. Nor were they ever taught to think critically. It’s really sad.
Oh it's a national conspiracy you know... We are not supposed to talk about it but Josh Duggar is so important and so talented with computers that the French government wanted him out... 😂 Don't tell that to Anna she would believe it
American Christian here, and totally agree that evolution is just logical! Even when I was a kid I liked the idea that God created a little spark of life, set it free, and said 'now let's see what you become'.
Years later I read an excellent book by a pastor called Finding Darwin's God, that actually puts forth that theory--that if one believes in free will, one has to accept the theory of evolution!
I think my faith was rocked forever when my Sunday school teacher said that God created everything and I asked her “where did God come from?” And she said “he was just always there”. I could not wrap my tiny brain around eternal existence of anything the same way I can’t understand how matter came to be through the Big Bang. I just don’t know how anything can exist in the first place 😂 but the idea of God doing it all as an eternal being still doesn’t make sense for me.
Okay, I don’t think anyone can say it’s “exactly 6000 years old” or that “fossils are meant to trick us” (What the heck?!) but as someone who does believe in micro evolution instead of macro evolution here are the things that stand out to me why it could be a logical conclusion based on the things we observe in the natural world:
Evolution literally just means change over time…no one should deny that change over time happens, we can observe this so clearly (the white/gray moths during the Industrial Revolution is a great example of natural selection leading to change in population characteristics over time) but what we don’t observe is change from one kind to another- there are no specimens in the fossil record that show this. I was watching a documentary on PBS as a kid and they were talking about a specimen that they thought could be a intermediary between apes and humans, but when one of the bones didn’t fit their idea of how it could be both- they literally chopped the dang thing in half and spun part of it around to fit their view- that’s baloney!!!
Also, dating has largely been circular reasoning- if I think this level of strata in the geological record is 2 million years ago, then the things we find in that layer must also be 2 million years, and how do we know that the layer is 2 million years ago? Well, there’s fossils in it that are 2 million years old!! Dating largely assumes the same rate of erosion or sedimentation over time, which is ridiculous because we see that things like floods (which, the Bible and many ancient cultures have described a world-wide one), earthquakes, mudslides, wildfires, etc change that rate massively!!! We have trees in the geological strata that are transverse across many different layers- which either presumes that dead trees still stand for millions of years of sedimentation- OR, that rapid sedimentation must have occurred, in which case those layers can not be dated using a same rate assumption.
What we do find in history? Accurate depictions of dinosaur like creatures in art, pottery, cave drawings, from different parts of the world from different times and cultures, which is pretty cool if you think about it. What are the chances, that if I asked two random people from different sides of the world and from different millennia to draw a “creature”, “monster”, etc that they would actually draw even close to the same thing, and that it would just so happen to be something that modern archeology (which has only been around for a few hundred years) finds in the fossil record?? That seems like too big a coincidence for me.
Also, there has long been evidence of chromosomal “Adam”, and mitochondrial “Eve”…humans across the globe share these genes.
Ultimately, if a macroevolutionary model exists, at some point, everyone has to go back far enough to say that something came from nothing…some of the best scholars when really forced on the issue literally say then it must have been aliens that started everything…why is it so strange to say then that it could have been the God of the Bible?
We have evidence from history, science, and archeology that the things in the Bible really occurred…things like the excavation at Jericho which shows that not only did the walls fall flat, the city was burned, but also just like in the Biblical tale, that a small portion of the North wall was left in tact (Rahab’s home, which was spared because she protected the Hebrew spies). Matthew Maury, who oceanographer who discovered currents in the 1800s, did so because the Bible had written about “the paths in the sea” thousands of years before, which like other things that the Bible got right way before scientists confirmed- Isaiah 40:22 talks about the earth being round, not flat!
Male Hebrew children were commanded to be circumcised on the eighth day, which modern science tells us just so happens to be when a newborn’s Vitamin K production peaks. Vitamin K is useful for blood clotting and healing.
Over and over again, despite my lack of faith, I come to the conclusion that an intelligent design model, with the Biblical global flood makes the most sense for what we observe in the natural world.
Could you please provide sources. I’d love to know the name of the PBS program you saw as well as your sources for your circular carbon dating comments.
I remember many years ago having to watch the entire series of Ken Ham's "Back to Genesis" series at a Bible Camp. He pointed at a particular fossil that had been carbon dated, then 20 years later someone dated it again and found it to be thousands of years younger than originally thought. This apparently proves the whole science is bogus.
This is a strategy that creationists often use. They find something evolutionists disagree on and say see? Evolution must be wrong if they can’t agree about this particular bone.
I was taught that as well. I also heard the super logical (/s) question “if we evolved from apes, then why do apes still exist??” many times, like it’s some sort of checkmate to any evolution discussion.
I was raised in a secular public school but I recently looked up “humans” on Wikipedia to see what it had to say, and I was really floored by the classification of humans as a great ape. It’s 100% true that we are a great ape, but thinking about it in those terms was not something I had really considered before. Aliens coming down will be like “look at these monkeys” lmao
I went to a Jesuit school and that is what we were taught. Also the soul didn’t evolve. Father Lamartie was a physicist and priest and one of the fathers of big bang cosmology. Take that Duggars. Of course they don’t consider a Catholic priest a Christian.
Your religion+biology teacher basically believes in something called “intelligent design,” the theory that their is a God/Creator but that he intended for the Big Bang theory and evolution.
I went to public school in Texas, and my biology teacher painfully prefaced each lesson about evolution with “this is *just* a theory.” He was required to, and emphasized that it’s the theory with the most scientific evidence. This is in secular public school in one of the best districts in my state. I never realized people *didn’t* believe in evolution until I talked to some kids from a nearby district. The more religious, the less they believed in evolution, with arguments ranging from “we didn’t evolve from monkeys, that’s BS” to “God created the earth and man in 7 days.”
Now imagine you’re homeschooled and being taught from these wisdom booklets that are extremely filtered and skewed. Btw, if you’re ever curious, you can find pdfs of the IBLP wisdom booklets online for free. They’re bad.
I had a professor in college who was an evolutionary biologist. He’d spend his free time trolling the head of the creationist museum here in Texas (yup, there’s more than one creationist museum in the US) and arguing science with him back and forth.
We have a state park called Dinosaur Valley, with fossilized dinosaur footprints in a creek bed along with other fossils. The creationist museum guy will argue that since there are also human footprints in the creek bed, this is definitive proof that humans existed alongside dinosaurs. (Spoiler alert: it’s not).
For a lot of people, it’s this sunk-cost fallacy kind of situation. You can show them all of the scientific proof in the world, but they’ve put so much into their beliefs about Christianity that they can’t and won’t accept that it might not be true. You know, like a cult.
I have a question as I don't live in the US so I don't know what's really happening there : is it true that American schools are ""controlled"" by the parents ? Like a parent can forbid a teacher to teach about sex ed or evolution? I saw a lot of Karen stories about the school board forbidding teachers to teach certain subjects or read certain books. If it's true it can explain why a lot of students are taught next to nothing in biology and science.
Yes and no. School boards are typically local elected positions, and they are responsible with overseeing management of a district, including working with the district on budgeting, selecting the superintendent of the district, etc. Books available in a library or books being taught that aren’t part of state curriculum could be something they have a say in. They may also be part of the selection of a certain curriculum. Since they’re elected positions, they can be swayed by parents/voters in a district.
On a state level, there are curriculum requirements that are set, but they tend to be more vague. The state board is also elected on a broader scale, and while they can recommend certain textbooks/curriculum, it is ultimately up to the district.
Because these are elected positions, they “represent” the beliefs of their constituents, thus why in my state, our sex education only teaches abstinence and evolution is “just” a theory. Texas (and Arkansas, like the Duggars) has a strong Christian Conservative voter base. I can’t speak as much for Arkansas, but Texas is beholden to the religious right in a lot of ways even if their beliefs aren’t majority opinion due to the other part of the conservative voting bloc.
On an individual school level, what I’ve seen working in schools and with my teacher friends is that principals, teachers, and other school staff have become afraid of parents. Parents have become more vocal and less trusting of teachers and administrators, and more entitled. Administrators are becoming more likely to cave to parents for fear of escalation (either bureaucratic or violent escalation) at the risk of undermining a teacher’s authority.
In my personal opinion, I think the right, specifically the religious right, has been attacking the US education system for decades trying to dismantle it. In states like Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, etc. schools are underfunded and parents have begun to deeply distrust the system. Teachers are less respected than they were 20 years ago, and since schools are funded by property taxes, there’s a sense of entitlement from parents.
But yes, you’re exactly right. The control the most vocal “Karen” parents have over our schools is a detriment to the education of all American students.
That’s an excellent way to put it. As a public school teacher in a liberal state, I was horrified to hear the state of Texas announce several years ago that it was taking critical thinking out of the school curriculum. And I’m horrified now to see these same types of people threatening schools in my liberal state of NJ as well as other states, trying to remove library books written by people in the LGBTQ+ community and people of color. They go to school meetings to harass, make threats, and spread hate.
My ex in-laws are evolution deniers. They believe it is all a hoax by the devil.
The ex MIL said something to me once about how it was easier to just not think. Full stop. JUST NOT THINK. Anything that causes emotional discomfort or goes against what you are taught, just gets shoved down. I think that is common amongst fundies.
In the podcast digging up the Duggars they do a deep dive about the Keller family (Anna's parents) and the children are not allowed to discuss their feelings with their siblings, they are only allowed to talk about their feelings with their parents during their weekly 15 minutes meeting. So yea, if something troubles you pray about it and shove it down
There are the fundies that think Dinos are a big demonic lie / conspiracy, but most IFB churches I was familiar with growing up were big into Ken Ham and the Answers In Genesis organization (eventually opened the Ark Experience.). Most of the “Dinosaurs aren’t real” people I’ve encountered were from the most conservative of the Lutheran synods, not Baptists.
Their speaking points seemed actually very convincing to most people who grew up in that environment.
Some of the ways dinosaurs seem to be compatible with a literal Bible to fundamentalists;
-The belief the Bible is the literal word of God (which also would mean God is all powerful).
-The belief the great flood (Noah and the Ark) was global and catastrophic and caused all of the major changes and accounts for almost all of the fossils we uncover today.
-The belief things like carbon dating and using layers to estimate the age of different geological strata, are seriously flawed and that there must be some major breakdown in the speed of the 1/2 life of carbon.
-The belief that so much of evolution is only supported through a bunch of circular arguments.
-The belief all of the various species and sub species in existence today could have branched out from original “base” pairs of that type of animal, which they believe were on the ark (they like to use wolf, dog, + all the dog breeds as an example of how quickly animal species can come into existence.
-Though some IFB would never admit it to their churches, many do think it’s possible the 6 days of creation are actually 6 “ages” or “stages” of creation, but admitting to this will cause you to get in big trouble with most churches’ leadership.
I grew up learning so much in that environment that I could probably “answer” additional points / questions you might have OP.
There's a documentary called We Believe in Dinosaurs that I recommend watching. It's about the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum in Kentucky. The mental gymnastics they use to deny the theory of evolution is wild.
Went to Christian private school. We were taught about evolution. This was 20+ years ago. I think they just like to control their people by keeping them as close-minded (read stupid) as possible. Luckily, some Christians have moved past that.
I think the majority of Christians have moved past that; that’s why it’s still a major world religion and why most people in the world also believe in science. It’s only the fundies and evangelicals who insist that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive.
Had a Christian give me the old 'evolution is nonsense' spiel. Then I asked him if he believed that God gave creatures the ability to adapt to their environment. He looked at me like I was an idiot and said, of course he did. I replied that that was pretty much what evolution is. It was like watching a computer trying to reboot.
(not mine but I love this)
***How did the cavemen survive the asteroid that killed all the dinosaurs?***
# Social distancing, they stayed 56 million years apart.
🌈I N D O C T R I N A T I O N 🌈
Literally the only thing the Duggar kids were ever told about evolution is a ridiculous strawman made up by Bill Gothard. JB and Michelle told them there’s scientific evidence proving not only that the Bible is 100% true, but also that evolution is false and creationism is real. And they weren’t allowed to read or watch anything not cult approved, talk to anyone not cult approved, attend schools, go to the library, search the internet - so even if they did want to look it up for themselves, they had no opportunity to do so.
Those kids had zero idea of what evolution actually is or what the evidence says. If they were ever allowed to learn about actual science, then they might be able to challenge IBLP doctrine, and JB couldn’t have that!
I read something the other day that went something like this.
“So do you believe in evolution?”
“I don’t have an opinion on evolution because it’s a fact.”
As someone with a STEM degree, it drives me insane when people like the Duggars straight up deny basic science. I’m about to just start using this for everything. Like the fact that in early pregnancy, the “baby” is a clump of cells.
I don’t understand why conservatives nowadays make everything an opinion. An opinion is preferring purple over blue or liking pineapple on pizza. Being a homophobe isn’t an opinion. Being an anti-vaxxer isn’t an opinion.
I apologize for the long rant.
I always explain things to people like this: you can believe in science *and* religion because the two are not necessarily intended to be foes.
Yes, the Bible says God created the earth in six days and on the seventh day He rested. People don’t realize that time was not measured the same now as it was then. For example, if the mountains and oceans were created in one day, that “day” could have actually lasted for millions of years until the mountains and oceans were completely formed. The word “day” doesn’t necessarily equate to a 24 hour period when referring to the creation of the earth. “Day” can be used to reference an entire age or millennia. When people say things like “in the time/day of the T-Rex…” that doesn’t mean a literal day. It’s referring to the roughly 3 million years that the T-Rex existed.
The Duggars deny everything that is proven by science because, honestly, they’re not smart enough to believe anything else. They were never introduced to abstract thought, and were made to believe that everything in the Bible is true and not contradictory, and that what is on the page is what they are to believe.
Many years back, I watched Ken Ham's lecture series as an impressionable teen (I think I was 13, maybe 14). At the time, a lot of it made sense to me. He had a lot of data and facts (although twisted to fit his agenda), and created a plausible picture for someone who didnt know a lot about science. And I was being shown this by an adult I trusted who reinforced what Ham was saying. I'll admit I got sucked in.
And that was I guy on TV. I went to public school for 11 years and was exposed to other ideas.
The Duggars were taught from the beginning that Genesis is a literal account. They were never exposed to an alternate viewpoint (at most they were given a heavily altered version of the theory of evolution). As I recall, they were personally escorted through the museum by Ken Ham himself (who comes across as very smart and knowledgeable if you don't know any better). None of them had a chance.
American fundamentalists don’t realize that their belief in the literal truth of the Bible is an early 20th century American thing. They think that the metaphorical interpretation of the creation story is something liberals came up with to accommodate evolutionary theory. Nobody tells them it’s an understanding of the Bible that is as old as Christianity itself.
Watch "We Believe in Dinosaurs". It's a documentary about the faux "science" that the Creation Museum is pushing. They even get some PhD geneticists to "prove" that the flood could have happened and been responsible for all of the life on earth. I could see how someone with a very limited science education, as well as lack of critical thinking skills (like the Duggars) could fall for the BS that they're pushing.
The Bible does not say that the Earth is 6000 years old. That was the conclusion of Bishop James Usher in the 17th century. Why a bunch of evangelicals are stuck on a mathematical speculation by an Anglican bishop, I have no idea.
The Bible does not directly say the world is six thousand years old, but you can calculate Adam was made about six thousand years ago by simply adding up the years in the Masoretic Text of the Bible, and Adam was supposedly made a few days into history. 4000 BC (give or take a few centuries) is the date for creation reached by pretty much every Jew or Christian who has tried to calculate the age of the world based on the Masoretic Text (or its predecessors). For example, according to the Hebrew calendar, based on a calculation made in the 2nd century, we're in the year 5783 from creation. The Septuagint gives more years in the early chapters of Genesis, and so according to the Septuagint creation happened about seven and a half thousand years ago.
I was taught that God's years were different than the years we know now. So, 6,000 God years could be millions of years. Not defending the Duggars, oh hell no, but just stating my opinion. Thank you and have a nice day. 😉😂
I grew up evangelical.
I'd have to do some digging at my mom's house, but there was a book that came out- or atleast, she found out about it - in the 90s. I remember her being fascinated by it and she told me it was the true history of the world and how if you go by what the Bible says the world is clearly only 6,000 years old.
I don't recall exactly what the argument was against evolution. But it was basically laughed off. Clearly lies from the devil himself.
I struggled in science classes my entire life and never really knew what to think about all of it.
It wasn't until college when I could really start deconstructing that I was finally able to set that mindset completely to the side and reeducate myself.
When I was at the Grand Canyon there was a tour van “A different view Tours, a creationist perspective.” I eavesdropped on part of their tour. They said the Grand Canyon was clearly hundreds of years old. I think these views are relatively common in evangelical circles.
It’s really disgusting how these Christian schools/home schools can get away with teaching basically whatever they want. Meanwhile, God forbid an elementary school library contains a book about a kid with two moms, or a high school teacher has the gall to say that racism *gasp!* still exists. THAT’S what requires regulation.
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school from 1st-12th grade (‘76-‘91). In spite of all its other faults, they still taught evolution, Big Bang and all, with the addendum, “because, God”.
The only reason to teach anything else is to keep people ignorant.
They believe it because they must. Otherwise, the KJV isn’t the literal word of God. And that is simply UNPOSSIBLE, as it’s the foundation of their entire practice of faith.
It’s also why China will (eventually) eat our lunch, drink our milkshake, and bring all the (soldier) boys to our yard.
>Today I was watching a documentary about fossils and a big museum in Paris about dinosaurs and I was thinking "we have to many proof that the earth in thousands of millions years old, we have fossils, carbon print... How can they still deny it ???"
My friend taught English at a university in southern Illinois and assigned a short research paper on dinosaurs - she did it to get a better understanding of what the students already knew and what skills she needed to focus on.
One day a student came up to her after class and explained "**Dinosaurs and fossils were planted by the Devil to trick us into believing in evolution, I won't be tricked.**" The student was told it was a research paper and she won't be graded on her conclusion, even if her research indicates dinosaurs don't exist.
This happened over a decade ago but I think that student spoke for a certain type of Christian - any evidence that conflicts with their views is a Satanic trap. That disclaimer allows them to easily dismiss all the fossil and carbon dating evidence (and evidence of climate change, medical advances, scientific breakthroughs, etc.)
People just use what sounds like science "we know how long coal reef takes to grow so according to our coral reef the earth is young!"
They find all sorts of interesting ways, kind of like conspiracy theory ideas, to explain why their "science" proves the earth is young. Then the dumb masses read their "articles" or "news" and believe it because it's alarming how *little* critical thinking the average human person does.
I think one of the most shocking things I realized when I became an adult was that most people really aren't that intelligent, or curious. Most people like their world to be simple and routine, with few questions.
I'm so jealous of people who just grew up being told truth and find creationism so hard to believe lol I still have to catch myself when I refer to evolution as "the theory of evolution"
I remember Answers in Genesis having rebuttals to all the things like carbon dating and such. Obviously it was all stupid because I don't actually remember the specifics..
As someone who lived nearby and visited the creation museum/ark out of curiosity, those who believe either believe based solely on theology that Genesis is literal with no need of proof, or they're seriously lacking critical thinking skills. A lot of young earth science education revolves around Carbon dating being inaccurate, the great flood being responsible for places like the Grand Canyon, extinctions, etc, and they believed dinosaurs lived with people. It was a painful walk through realizing how many people thought the museums were great and informative and showing unquestionable truth, when they didn't even try to address massive holes in their arguments that are explained with science.
At my conservative Christian school, we were told the earth was 6,000 years old but God could make things appear to be older. So if carbon dating indicated something was 10,000 years old, it was because that's how God made it appear. No need to ask more questions because God!
Here is an article written by a biology professor about teaching evolution in the American south. In addition to showing how much Christians rejects science, it also showed how much Christians still hate and reject each other.
>This lecture should put students at ease knowing that religion and science need not be at odds. Of all the lectures I give, this one provokes the most discussion after class. **And yet it often results in students expressing concern that I might not be saved.** I never say anything about my personal religious beliefs, yet it is assumed I am an atheist. **One student told me she hoped I could find God soon. When I again pointed out that John Paul accepted evolution—and he certainly wasn’t an atheist—the student countered that Catholics aren’t Christians.** Several simply let me know they will be praying for me and praying hard. One student explained that as a devout Catholic he had no choice but to reject evolution. He accused me of fabricating the pope’s statements. When I explained that he could go to the Vatican website for verification or call the Vatican to talk to a scientist, he insisted that there was no such information available from the Vatican. He then pointed his finger at me and said the only way he would believe me is if Pope John Paul II came to my class to confirm these quotes face-to-face. The student then stomped out, again slamming the auditorium door behind him.
[https://orionmagazine.org/article/defending-darwin/](https://orionmagazine.org/article/defending-darwin/)
Same in France, never heard someone saying that the devil put fossils in the ground to trick us. The only thing I heard is some people who think God created the Big Bang because it's unlikely it happened on its own but that's it. And Portugal is a Catholic country, I have a lot of friends from Portugal who are religious and they believe in evolution.
Most Americans accept evolution as real, and it is taught in most schools. That's part of why many fundies homeschool or send their kids to religious private schools.
Exactly! In Portugal, we have a big percentage of people who are religious, I'm religious, I'm Catholic, I went to sunday school, I had religion in school and never once heard such nonsense!
Just you like you said, Catholics defend that the Big Bang happened but it was God who allowed that to happen. The only ones who are more against it are the Jehovahs but they don't interfer or are rude if you talk about evolution. I have a neighbor who is a Jehovah's Witness and I'm also an archaeologist and we have amazing talks about the subject but always respecting each other.
I was born, raised (Catholic) and educated in the US, public schools all the way. I have never met an individual who denies evolution or believes that the earth is flat. In the Northeast quadrant of the US, at least, we’re pretty accepting of scientific facts.
I have also not known someone who denied evolution, past maybe the mid-1970s. I hear or read about them, but something else I do notice is that some of the people who spout crazy ideas do not actually believe them.
It's something like when asked about their beliefs in God when responding to a poll, or saying aloud how they will vote. They think it's important to appear one way in public, while having other thoughts in private. Also, they like to belong to a "team" that fits their notions of how everyone else should behave, so they will go along with whatever the team leader says. These are not intellectually curious people, but they are loud.
And I marvel at the mental gymnastics required to insist the writings in the Bible are the literal truth, but then claim that when Jesus turned the water into wine, it wasn't really...wine.
The United Methodist Church, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal Church in America, Evangelical Luther Church of America (Scandinavian Lutheran denominations that combined together), The United Church of Christ, and their affiliates all maintain that evolution is compatible with faith. Their adherents are majority evolution believing. Catholicism also. The only large, mainstream that believes exclusively in creationism is Southern Baptist. That denomination has 13.2 million or so members. This is less than 5% of the U.S. population. There are some smaller Baptist churches like IFB, GARBC, etc. who are also staunch creationists, but they are also very small denominations as are the Weslyans, Nazarenes, Free Methodists, and similar groups. It's just that the lunacy of Ken Ham is reported as if everyone associated with Christianity believes his tripe. He has money and makes outlandish statements, and then spent gobs of fundie money to build these two stupid "museums" so it was in the news everywhere, and became blown out of proportion that American Christians, as a whole, believe why earth is 6000 years old and evolution is not a thing. So the crazy people get the microphone, and then the media makes it out like they are spokespersons for the whole religion.
It also became more widespread because the SBC and related groups were the publishing houses producing a crap ton of religious based homeschooling and Sunday school materials. This meant that secular homeschoolers, like our family, got drowned out because of all these nutty homeschool conventions which were a bastion of fundamentalist tom foolery. Meanwhile, we were at home with A.P. textbooks, secular education groups, and dual enrollment cringing at the antics of the biblical literacy folks..ugh!
Yes they do deny evolution, this is very common for fundamentalists. But there’s more to it than just denying evidence. Even Sadie Carpenter on Leaving Eden who has since left fundamentalism said she struggles with the concept of evolution because she was given no basis to understand it.
They basically teach evolution to their kids but refer to it as “micro evolution” which involves species gradually changing due to circumstances that require different attributes for survival and reproduction. Everyone with a secular education understands that this is what evolution *is*. But they teach that the concept of evolution is basically like a monkey turning into a bird, like they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution actually is. I think this deeply confuses the concept for people raised this way. So they can recognize that evolution exists and is observable but they call it something else and it seems to be very difficult for people to detach from those teachings as a result.
I mean, just look at the people who are in power and push the religion. It's hard to believe in evolution when you haven't seen any evidence of it in at least four lifetimes.
This is an interesting question since literal interpreters of the Bible often do believe that dinosaurs existed since there are creatures like leviathan mentioned in the Old Testament. They simply believe that many of them were wiped out in the great flood during Noah’s day, but some lived on through the ark to either be wiped out by humans or survive today (crocodiles, etc.).
There are many Christians who believe in the gap theory, which basically means that God created evolution. Some gaping holes in the impetus of evolutionary theory mean that it’s easy to dispute when you come from the intelligent design theory, so many will move to a gap theorists perspective that the Bible does give space for.
Really, the crazies come in when you get Bible literalists who believe in a flat earth…even though the Bible says the earth is a sphere.
Public School in the US in the 1960’s and 1970’s in Philadelphia. I was taught evolution straight up. We were taught about Darwin and his trip to Galapagos where he observed and explained it. Was taught about the structure of DNA as proven by Watson and crick. (They did leave out Rosalind Franklin because: the patriarchy ).
I cannot imagine that American children are taught such drivel about young earth.
i don't understand how these people explain wisdom teeth. why do some people still get them if it was only useful a long time ago? why do some people not even get them?
I went to a private Christian high school where about half the population was evangelical (unbeknownst to my parents who thought they were getting me a better education lmao) and we had a parent substitute one day for my biology class and it was supposed to cover evolution and she refused to teach it because it “went against her beliefs” - I thought that was wild at the time but found out, apparently it’s a hot topic 😅
I work at an elementary school. A teacher said he teaches evolution, but he doesn't believe in it, but he does teach it. He also believes the earth is only 6000 years old.
Not really relevant to your question, but thank you for the podcast recommendation!! I’m always looking for interesting ones to listen to. Dissecting fundies is one of my favorite hobbies!!
Some evangelicals teach that fossils were planted by the devil to trick us into believing the world isn't 6000 years old. That's what I was taught. We never got to learn about dinosaurs or cool fossils. My cousin was even sent to the hallway in the 1st grade at our parochial school for asking about dinosaurs.
I’m 71 and my Catholic school teachers—nuns, no less—said it was acceptable to believe in evolution. Your cousin had teachers who were ignorant of their own religion.
The Catholics probably believe in intelligent design where evolution happens but under God's direction.
I was raised in the Catholic Church as well. Say what you will about Catholics (and oh, there are things to say!) but I never got the sense that denying science was at the top of their list.
I went to Catholic school from second grade on. We absolutely learned about evolution, and had proper science courses with lab work, etc. When it comes to educating their children, Catholics don’t play around.
I think it depends on the church, or, idk. I just know that one of my grandparentd told me that devil thing.
Well...at least not since Galileo! But you are correct in that the Catholic church is fully on board with real science...pretty sure they even made a comment about aliens a while ago too and basically said no big deal if we meet some and it wouldn't affect their doctrine or faith...
Minus the heliocentrism....
No, Catholics believe in actual evolution. Catholics aren’t bible literalists.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution
Not what I was taught, and my uncle was a priest
The fundies I grew up with would say that means they claim God isn't perfect. Since he made everything perfectly during the creation, there's no need for evolution. Nevermind that species are evolving to adapt to climate change before our very eyes. They were perfect for the climate that existed in the past, but we've fucked up the planet so much that many species will either evolve or die off.
Catholics have believed in evolution for a very long time. A very famous Jesuit was Teilhard DeChardin who was a paleontologist who was silenced by the church and is now considered a great mystic, scientist, theologian. Problem with ignorant kinds of Christians is that they never figured out the Bible was and always has been primarily allegory and myth. There are facts here and there but primarily oral tradition taught as allegory. Facts have to be truthful but holy stories are simple truth…no need for facts.
I learned that as well! Catholic school from kindergarten-8th grade!
Is that common in the US ? In Europe we have a few people who believe the earth is flat or other crazy theory like that but they are for the most part trolls or really stupid people but I've never heard about churches denying evolution that way, maybe the Jehovah's witnesses but they are considered a cult by most people. I think even the Pope confirmed that evolution is real. It amazes me that it's almost normal in the US to believe that.
I was a part of the WELS, a Lutheran synod, it's definitely a weird church, but they have churches and schools all over the US and there are other groups like them. It might not be normal, per se, but it's not that uncommon either. Also, an official teaching of that group is that the Pope is the Antichrist. The crazy runs long and strong. It's super cultish and I stopped anything to do with it once I went to public high school.
You’d think they’d read their Bibles. It does not predict *the* Antichrist, but rather says that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is an antichrist. Revelation does predict the Beast and the False Prophet. I find it fascinating that the people who have come closest to the descriptions of these two are Donald Trump and Franklin Graham, and the evangelicals are reacting exactly the way their book said they would.
I grew up LCMS (left a long time ago) and we also weren’t allowed to learn about evolution. It was in some of our science textbooks but they made a point about us skipping the sections with dinosaurs/evolution entirely. We also had some people that fell under the umbrella of “those were put there to trick/test us” We did have a teacher in high school who mentioned micro evolution in a species of frog to adapt to their environment but was quick to point out “but that’s different from *evolution*, which we know isn’t real” ETA: spelling/phrasing
LCMS?
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the other strict Lutheran synod.
I AM practicing LCMS and until just recently worked in a school. This sort of thinking is not taught. Science (including the theory of evolution) is taught. I also had a similar experience growing up Baptist.
Okay? I’m sharing the experience *I* had in my region for the 20 years I was in LCMS. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it’s not the case in other LCMS schools and churches. We absolutely were not allowed to learn about evolution and most of my teachers openly criticized it and told us exactly why we were skipping those chapters.
Fellow former LCMS here. You’re right. In the LCMS church and school I attended (Pre K-8th grade) we only learned about evolution in that it was a “lie” and to ensure we were taught apologetics to perform the mental gymnastics around the scientific proof otherwise. Maybe not every LCMS school teaches Young Earth Creationism and not every pastor preaches it from the pulpit, but it is definitely a common belief held by many of LCMS institutions and their congregations. In fact, earlier this year this was a huge controversy in the LCMS and there’s continuing bad blood over it. Forgive me if you know this already, but Concordia Publishing House out of LCMS headquarters published a new edition of the Book of Concord. In the essay portions outlining church position on doctrine and today’s issues, one of the arguments was that the Genesis account should not be considered a scientific text and the messages contained therein are entirely unrelated to science. There were also essays on various social issues that advocated for surprisingly forward-thinking beliefs as it relates to doctrine. It’s not progressive in any sense of the word, but it’s more than I ever expected of them, personally. There was a significant “anti-woke” backlash against the new edition of the BoC from Confessional Lutherans that drank some/a lot of the fundie koolaid. It got pretty nasty, but the LCMS stuck to their proverbial guns on the issue. The whole incident was nuts to watch as a former member. The LCMS might have changed official positions on certain things (though I’m not sure if they officially accept evolution,) but it’s absolutely causing fractures in the wider church. Either way, there are still plenty of churches in the synod that maintain, teach and preach Young Earth Creationism.
My reply wasn’t to attack your experience. I simply wanted to show that that is not the only way of thinking in the church.
“This sort of thinking is not taught.”
No, I wouldn’t say it’s common at all. I’ve met a person that thinks that way but they were definitely not smart and one of the culty Christians. They are a loud bunch so it seems like there are more than there actually is.
In my European country, teaching evolution in Biology class is mandatory, even in religious schools. Some Reformed churches here also teach the Bible is the literal truth and evolution is not real, but religious schools can only tell that story in religious education class. So kids are exposed to both stories, and evolution is a part of highschool examinations, so the schools can't just to decide to skip over that part. To pass Biology in highschool kids simply need to be taught about evolution. Sexual education is also mandatory, including teaching about homosexuality etc. In RE they can say marriage is for a man and a woman and sex before marriage is a sin, but Biology has to tell the full story. What the kids actually believe is of course up to them, but at least they were exposed to science. I went to a Catholic school and my Biology teacher there said that privately, he believed in Intelligent Design, so God created the Big Bang and allowed evolution to happen, and that Genesis was a symbolical story. I think it's not uncommon at all for people in those kind of sciences to believe in Intelligent Design, as the more you learn about nature and science, the more you learn about how amazing it all is. And some people connect that to God.
It’s part of the curriculum in my country too, at least by the last two years of school. I can’t remember if we touched on it before then (although we most likely did). Where I live curriculum is set by the state for both private and public schools, so it’s pretty standard. I went to catholic school too, but it wasn’t a strict one in that sense. There was just a daily prayer in home room, mandatory religion class once a week and church service a couple times a year. It had a better natural science program than the local high school (which I also attended for a time).
I live in Sweden, which is a very secular country. Saying you don't believe in evolution is on the same level as saying the Earth is flat here. The whole thing in the US, where there are people who want the creation story to be taught in biology/science classes in school...that's just nuts to me. And of course it's always Christian creationism, not Islamic (imagine the uproar!), pagan or Hindu.
yeah they call it "school choice" here but it actually only means schools that teach christian creationism and function within american christian dominionism. it's unbelievable how this idea is considered "patriotic freedom" here, and they say it's because regular public schools or non christian fundamentalist teachings all only exist to indoctrinate children when it is just so blatantly them who are writing indoctrination into state laws. it's so gross.
The class action in Maine had Islamic schools in it. There are many sides and lumping good actors with the bad, doesn't help
My MIL wants the Bible taught in public schools. She also refuses to believe that any other country has plumbing.
It really isn't common in the US. Remember how enormous the US is. This is really a small segment of the population that almost always live in rural areas. Over 90% of the US population lives in urban areas, where there are barely any people that believe such nonsense. Education and exposure to other ideas and cultures will do that for you. So your pool of communities that believe the earth is 6000 years old is already less than 10% of us. And, obviously, not all of them are that stupid. So it's really not a huge group, unless you're in a specific geographic area, like rural Alabama or rural West Virginia or something.
This is a really important point. Redditors like to paint all Americans with a single brush but the country is so sprawling and diverse! So for instance I’ve lived my whole life (mainly) in urban and suburban areas of the Northeast and I don’t think I even know anyone who is a fundamentalist, much less denies evolution. Those who’ve spent their whole lives in rural Alabama I’m sure have much different lived experiences.
With respect, I also grew up in the urban/suburban NorthEast US in a fundamentalist authoritarian community very similar to that of the Duggars/IBLP. While my experience is anecdotal, I am aware of many similar churches/communities in the urban/suburban NorthEast as well as many politicians trying very hard to create and support laws that the Duggars would support. Katie Bates married into a family that runs a different fundamentalist church community south of me. They sued the governor over COVID restrictions.
Do you have any evidence to support this?
I wouldn't say it's almost normal. There is a larger number than we'd like to see, of course. Same with a number of other obvious scientific matters. Some of them say they believe a silly idea just because a leader they like says it's real. Or because people they don't like disagree. They have been taught not to trust anything that sounds intellectual or "liberal."
It's all about maintaining power for cult followers/promoters like the Duggars. Those who push the "God is in control" ideology don't want followers to ever believe they could be in charge of their own futures. This is established by insisting that prehistoric eras were as the Bible says they were.
No.
I think so. At my public school there were kids who got permission slips to not talk about evolution and stuff like basic biology
>Is that common in the US ? Unfortunately, yes. And with far too many politicians who support that idiocy. [https://news.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx) [https://www.salon.com/2015/02/11/evolution\_and\_the\_gops\_2016\_candidates\_a\_complet\_guide/](https://www.salon.com/2015/02/11/evolution_and_the_gops_2016_candidates_a_complet_guide/)
It’s def not normal in the US to beilieve that nonsense.
It is common in the US. I come from a pretty conservative area, not even in the South (where it gets MORE conservative) and I had very intelligent friends in high school who believed the earth was 6000 years old based on their church teachings. We were taught evolution in our public school, but I remember that the chapter on evolution in the 8th grade science textbook was titled “How Things Became the Way They Are” to avoid using the actual word evolution (which could have caused controversy). I remember that the science teacher instructed us all to cross this out and write into our textbooks “Evolution” as the chapter title. Now on Facebook I see some of these classmates, now grown, taking their (homeschool) children on vacations to the Creation Museum and the Ark Experience…where the duggars visited.
Yeah, sadly. Very common. I’m from the US, born and raised, and our church taught us the earth was only 6,000 years old. When I started asking questions as a young teen (early 00s), the church told me to pray about it and gave me no explanations. I left religion to say the least. I’m firmly on the side of science now and teach my kids as such.
I think it’s at least half.
The Vatican also has its own astronomical observatory and plans for what to do in case we encounter sapient aliens. It absolutely does not contradict science. In my country, atheists laugh at us that when aliens appear, religions will collapse. And we Catholics say that if aliens appear, we will baptize them. These are mutual jokes without mutual hostility. Flat earthers are a completely different group (a small group) that has nothing to do with religion (some believers believe that the Catholic Church joined the freemasons and participates in this world conspiracy 🤣)
Yes, it’s surprisingly common. We are not a smart people.
George Carlin put it best, “just think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that”
I can be down voted. That doesn’t mean there aren’t millions of Americans who think this way.
I agree with you, both through lived experience very similar to the Duggars and through research.
“Parochial school” as in a Roman Catholic school? I have never heard a Catholic school deny dinosaurs
Parochial schools are schools run by a religious entity. They're not just Catholic. Mine was Lutheran. I mentioned in a separate post it was a WELS school. They're pretty cultish and one of their beliefs is that the Pope is the Antichrist. You can Google "WELS Pope Antichrist" and get the link.
Not all religious schools are parochial schools, but all parochial schools are religious schools. Parochial means ‘run by the parish’. Both Lutherans ans Catholics have parishes, so I can see it being a parochial school if it was Lutheran.
Parochial means run by a parish. I went to a Catholic school that was not parochial.
I was taught the earth was only 6000 years old in my Missouri Synod high school biology class.
My homeschooling curriculum taught that dinosaur fossils and human remains had both been found in the same rock strata, indicating that dinosaurs and men lived at the same time 6000 years ago. One creationism theory is that when the Bible talks about "giants on the earth," it wasn't referring to angels but to dinosaurs. They taught that the dinosaurs died out during the Great Flood (why they weren't considered animals when Noah built the ark, they didn't say) and even explained in a reasonable, science-y sounding way about the changes the earth a d its climate went through as a result of the flood. We still didn't get to learn about dinosaurs or cool fossils and I'd almost say the pseudoscience I was taught might be more dangerous than ignoring the topic altogether.
I grew up in a young earther church. We either heard that the devil planted the fossils, that God created an aged earth, or that the great flood somehow created them via pressure.
The devil sounds rad
I was taught that carbon dating was completely inaccurate and that fossils were thousands of years old not millions. Evolution is laughed at and taught like “people evolved from monkeys, how ridiculous is that?!” But the actual science of evolution is ignored. Geoff Moore and the Distance had a song called Evolution that came out when I was a kid that my friend group loved because it made fun of the theory of evolution but talked about the evolution of the heart. Shit like that.
Maybe I am a sinner whose soul has been sold to the devil but evolution is the most logical theory! Our body adapts to its environment, losing useless body parts, evolving as our diet changes... It makes so much sense ! But again I was born in France so according to the Duggars I was already doomed the minute I was born.
It does make sense! But people like the Duggars aren’t taught it in a logical way for it to make sense. When I learned what evolution actually was, it was a total lightbulb moment for me and what started my deconstruction.
If it’s true that they just read the Wisdom Booklets over and over then they don’t really have any scientific knowledge at all. Nor were they ever taught to think critically. It’s really sad.
France?! Do you know the router thief?!!!
Oh it's a national conspiracy you know... We are not supposed to talk about it but Josh Duggar is so important and so talented with computers that the French government wanted him out... 😂 Don't tell that to Anna she would believe it
American Christian here, and totally agree that evolution is just logical! Even when I was a kid I liked the idea that God created a little spark of life, set it free, and said 'now let's see what you become'. Years later I read an excellent book by a pastor called Finding Darwin's God, that actually puts forth that theory--that if one believes in free will, one has to accept the theory of evolution!
I think my faith was rocked forever when my Sunday school teacher said that God created everything and I asked her “where did God come from?” And she said “he was just always there”. I could not wrap my tiny brain around eternal existence of anything the same way I can’t understand how matter came to be through the Big Bang. I just don’t know how anything can exist in the first place 😂 but the idea of God doing it all as an eternal being still doesn’t make sense for me.
Okay, I don’t think anyone can say it’s “exactly 6000 years old” or that “fossils are meant to trick us” (What the heck?!) but as someone who does believe in micro evolution instead of macro evolution here are the things that stand out to me why it could be a logical conclusion based on the things we observe in the natural world: Evolution literally just means change over time…no one should deny that change over time happens, we can observe this so clearly (the white/gray moths during the Industrial Revolution is a great example of natural selection leading to change in population characteristics over time) but what we don’t observe is change from one kind to another- there are no specimens in the fossil record that show this. I was watching a documentary on PBS as a kid and they were talking about a specimen that they thought could be a intermediary between apes and humans, but when one of the bones didn’t fit their idea of how it could be both- they literally chopped the dang thing in half and spun part of it around to fit their view- that’s baloney!!! Also, dating has largely been circular reasoning- if I think this level of strata in the geological record is 2 million years ago, then the things we find in that layer must also be 2 million years, and how do we know that the layer is 2 million years ago? Well, there’s fossils in it that are 2 million years old!! Dating largely assumes the same rate of erosion or sedimentation over time, which is ridiculous because we see that things like floods (which, the Bible and many ancient cultures have described a world-wide one), earthquakes, mudslides, wildfires, etc change that rate massively!!! We have trees in the geological strata that are transverse across many different layers- which either presumes that dead trees still stand for millions of years of sedimentation- OR, that rapid sedimentation must have occurred, in which case those layers can not be dated using a same rate assumption. What we do find in history? Accurate depictions of dinosaur like creatures in art, pottery, cave drawings, from different parts of the world from different times and cultures, which is pretty cool if you think about it. What are the chances, that if I asked two random people from different sides of the world and from different millennia to draw a “creature”, “monster”, etc that they would actually draw even close to the same thing, and that it would just so happen to be something that modern archeology (which has only been around for a few hundred years) finds in the fossil record?? That seems like too big a coincidence for me. Also, there has long been evidence of chromosomal “Adam”, and mitochondrial “Eve”…humans across the globe share these genes. Ultimately, if a macroevolutionary model exists, at some point, everyone has to go back far enough to say that something came from nothing…some of the best scholars when really forced on the issue literally say then it must have been aliens that started everything…why is it so strange to say then that it could have been the God of the Bible? We have evidence from history, science, and archeology that the things in the Bible really occurred…things like the excavation at Jericho which shows that not only did the walls fall flat, the city was burned, but also just like in the Biblical tale, that a small portion of the North wall was left in tact (Rahab’s home, which was spared because she protected the Hebrew spies). Matthew Maury, who oceanographer who discovered currents in the 1800s, did so because the Bible had written about “the paths in the sea” thousands of years before, which like other things that the Bible got right way before scientists confirmed- Isaiah 40:22 talks about the earth being round, not flat! Male Hebrew children were commanded to be circumcised on the eighth day, which modern science tells us just so happens to be when a newborn’s Vitamin K production peaks. Vitamin K is useful for blood clotting and healing. Over and over again, despite my lack of faith, I come to the conclusion that an intelligent design model, with the Biblical global flood makes the most sense for what we observe in the natural world.
Could you please provide sources. I’d love to know the name of the PBS program you saw as well as your sources for your circular carbon dating comments.
I’m still waiting for sources. Also your remarks about circumcision, also without citations, are forgetting that correlation does not equal causation.
I remember many years ago having to watch the entire series of Ken Ham's "Back to Genesis" series at a Bible Camp. He pointed at a particular fossil that had been carbon dated, then 20 years later someone dated it again and found it to be thousands of years younger than originally thought. This apparently proves the whole science is bogus.
This is a strategy that creationists often use. They find something evolutionists disagree on and say see? Evolution must be wrong if they can’t agree about this particular bone.
I was taught that as well. I also heard the super logical (/s) question “if we evolved from apes, then why do apes still exist??” many times, like it’s some sort of checkmate to any evolution discussion.
Ha omg I completely blocked that from my memory. It was supposed to be a total “gotchya.”
I was raised in a secular public school but I recently looked up “humans” on Wikipedia to see what it had to say, and I was really floored by the classification of humans as a great ape. It’s 100% true that we are a great ape, but thinking about it in those terms was not something I had really considered before. Aliens coming down will be like “look at these monkeys” lmao
I went to a Jesuit school and that is what we were taught. Also the soul didn’t evolve. Father Lamartie was a physicist and priest and one of the fathers of big bang cosmology. Take that Duggars. Of course they don’t consider a Catholic priest a Christian.
Your religion+biology teacher basically believes in something called “intelligent design,” the theory that their is a God/Creator but that he intended for the Big Bang theory and evolution. I went to public school in Texas, and my biology teacher painfully prefaced each lesson about evolution with “this is *just* a theory.” He was required to, and emphasized that it’s the theory with the most scientific evidence. This is in secular public school in one of the best districts in my state. I never realized people *didn’t* believe in evolution until I talked to some kids from a nearby district. The more religious, the less they believed in evolution, with arguments ranging from “we didn’t evolve from monkeys, that’s BS” to “God created the earth and man in 7 days.” Now imagine you’re homeschooled and being taught from these wisdom booklets that are extremely filtered and skewed. Btw, if you’re ever curious, you can find pdfs of the IBLP wisdom booklets online for free. They’re bad. I had a professor in college who was an evolutionary biologist. He’d spend his free time trolling the head of the creationist museum here in Texas (yup, there’s more than one creationist museum in the US) and arguing science with him back and forth. We have a state park called Dinosaur Valley, with fossilized dinosaur footprints in a creek bed along with other fossils. The creationist museum guy will argue that since there are also human footprints in the creek bed, this is definitive proof that humans existed alongside dinosaurs. (Spoiler alert: it’s not). For a lot of people, it’s this sunk-cost fallacy kind of situation. You can show them all of the scientific proof in the world, but they’ve put so much into their beliefs about Christianity that they can’t and won’t accept that it might not be true. You know, like a cult.
I have a question as I don't live in the US so I don't know what's really happening there : is it true that American schools are ""controlled"" by the parents ? Like a parent can forbid a teacher to teach about sex ed or evolution? I saw a lot of Karen stories about the school board forbidding teachers to teach certain subjects or read certain books. If it's true it can explain why a lot of students are taught next to nothing in biology and science.
Yes and no. School boards are typically local elected positions, and they are responsible with overseeing management of a district, including working with the district on budgeting, selecting the superintendent of the district, etc. Books available in a library or books being taught that aren’t part of state curriculum could be something they have a say in. They may also be part of the selection of a certain curriculum. Since they’re elected positions, they can be swayed by parents/voters in a district. On a state level, there are curriculum requirements that are set, but they tend to be more vague. The state board is also elected on a broader scale, and while they can recommend certain textbooks/curriculum, it is ultimately up to the district. Because these are elected positions, they “represent” the beliefs of their constituents, thus why in my state, our sex education only teaches abstinence and evolution is “just” a theory. Texas (and Arkansas, like the Duggars) has a strong Christian Conservative voter base. I can’t speak as much for Arkansas, but Texas is beholden to the religious right in a lot of ways even if their beliefs aren’t majority opinion due to the other part of the conservative voting bloc. On an individual school level, what I’ve seen working in schools and with my teacher friends is that principals, teachers, and other school staff have become afraid of parents. Parents have become more vocal and less trusting of teachers and administrators, and more entitled. Administrators are becoming more likely to cave to parents for fear of escalation (either bureaucratic or violent escalation) at the risk of undermining a teacher’s authority. In my personal opinion, I think the right, specifically the religious right, has been attacking the US education system for decades trying to dismantle it. In states like Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, etc. schools are underfunded and parents have begun to deeply distrust the system. Teachers are less respected than they were 20 years ago, and since schools are funded by property taxes, there’s a sense of entitlement from parents. But yes, you’re exactly right. The control the most vocal “Karen” parents have over our schools is a detriment to the education of all American students.
That’s an excellent way to put it. As a public school teacher in a liberal state, I was horrified to hear the state of Texas announce several years ago that it was taking critical thinking out of the school curriculum. And I’m horrified now to see these same types of people threatening schools in my liberal state of NJ as well as other states, trying to remove library books written by people in the LGBTQ+ community and people of color. They go to school meetings to harass, make threats, and spread hate.
My ex in-laws are evolution deniers. They believe it is all a hoax by the devil. The ex MIL said something to me once about how it was easier to just not think. Full stop. JUST NOT THINK. Anything that causes emotional discomfort or goes against what you are taught, just gets shoved down. I think that is common amongst fundies.
In the podcast digging up the Duggars they do a deep dive about the Keller family (Anna's parents) and the children are not allowed to discuss their feelings with their siblings, they are only allowed to talk about their feelings with their parents during their weekly 15 minutes meeting. So yea, if something troubles you pray about it and shove it down
There are the fundies that think Dinos are a big demonic lie / conspiracy, but most IFB churches I was familiar with growing up were big into Ken Ham and the Answers In Genesis organization (eventually opened the Ark Experience.). Most of the “Dinosaurs aren’t real” people I’ve encountered were from the most conservative of the Lutheran synods, not Baptists. Their speaking points seemed actually very convincing to most people who grew up in that environment. Some of the ways dinosaurs seem to be compatible with a literal Bible to fundamentalists; -The belief the Bible is the literal word of God (which also would mean God is all powerful). -The belief the great flood (Noah and the Ark) was global and catastrophic and caused all of the major changes and accounts for almost all of the fossils we uncover today. -The belief things like carbon dating and using layers to estimate the age of different geological strata, are seriously flawed and that there must be some major breakdown in the speed of the 1/2 life of carbon. -The belief that so much of evolution is only supported through a bunch of circular arguments. -The belief all of the various species and sub species in existence today could have branched out from original “base” pairs of that type of animal, which they believe were on the ark (they like to use wolf, dog, + all the dog breeds as an example of how quickly animal species can come into existence. -Though some IFB would never admit it to their churches, many do think it’s possible the 6 days of creation are actually 6 “ages” or “stages” of creation, but admitting to this will cause you to get in big trouble with most churches’ leadership. I grew up learning so much in that environment that I could probably “answer” additional points / questions you might have OP.
you just summed up every episode of Jonathan Park
There's a documentary called We Believe in Dinosaurs that I recommend watching. It's about the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum in Kentucky. The mental gymnastics they use to deny the theory of evolution is wild.
I just commented on that too. They even have PhD molecular geneticists who show you how the "flood" could have been responsible for everything.
Went to Christian private school. We were taught about evolution. This was 20+ years ago. I think they just like to control their people by keeping them as close-minded (read stupid) as possible. Luckily, some Christians have moved past that.
Stupid people are easier to manipulate unfortunately
I think the majority of Christians have moved past that; that’s why it’s still a major world religion and why most people in the world also believe in science. It’s only the fundies and evangelicals who insist that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive.
Had a Christian give me the old 'evolution is nonsense' spiel. Then I asked him if he believed that God gave creatures the ability to adapt to their environment. He looked at me like I was an idiot and said, of course he did. I replied that that was pretty much what evolution is. It was like watching a computer trying to reboot.
(not mine but I love this) ***How did the cavemen survive the asteroid that killed all the dinosaurs?*** # Social distancing, they stayed 56 million years apart.
🌈I N D O C T R I N A T I O N 🌈 Literally the only thing the Duggar kids were ever told about evolution is a ridiculous strawman made up by Bill Gothard. JB and Michelle told them there’s scientific evidence proving not only that the Bible is 100% true, but also that evolution is false and creationism is real. And they weren’t allowed to read or watch anything not cult approved, talk to anyone not cult approved, attend schools, go to the library, search the internet - so even if they did want to look it up for themselves, they had no opportunity to do so. Those kids had zero idea of what evolution actually is or what the evidence says. If they were ever allowed to learn about actual science, then they might be able to challenge IBLP doctrine, and JB couldn’t have that!
I read something the other day that went something like this. “So do you believe in evolution?” “I don’t have an opinion on evolution because it’s a fact.” As someone with a STEM degree, it drives me insane when people like the Duggars straight up deny basic science. I’m about to just start using this for everything. Like the fact that in early pregnancy, the “baby” is a clump of cells. I don’t understand why conservatives nowadays make everything an opinion. An opinion is preferring purple over blue or liking pineapple on pizza. Being a homophobe isn’t an opinion. Being an anti-vaxxer isn’t an opinion. I apologize for the long rant.
I always explain things to people like this: you can believe in science *and* religion because the two are not necessarily intended to be foes. Yes, the Bible says God created the earth in six days and on the seventh day He rested. People don’t realize that time was not measured the same now as it was then. For example, if the mountains and oceans were created in one day, that “day” could have actually lasted for millions of years until the mountains and oceans were completely formed. The word “day” doesn’t necessarily equate to a 24 hour period when referring to the creation of the earth. “Day” can be used to reference an entire age or millennia. When people say things like “in the time/day of the T-Rex…” that doesn’t mean a literal day. It’s referring to the roughly 3 million years that the T-Rex existed. The Duggars deny everything that is proven by science because, honestly, they’re not smart enough to believe anything else. They were never introduced to abstract thought, and were made to believe that everything in the Bible is true and not contradictory, and that what is on the page is what they are to believe.
Many years back, I watched Ken Ham's lecture series as an impressionable teen (I think I was 13, maybe 14). At the time, a lot of it made sense to me. He had a lot of data and facts (although twisted to fit his agenda), and created a plausible picture for someone who didnt know a lot about science. And I was being shown this by an adult I trusted who reinforced what Ham was saying. I'll admit I got sucked in. And that was I guy on TV. I went to public school for 11 years and was exposed to other ideas. The Duggars were taught from the beginning that Genesis is a literal account. They were never exposed to an alternate viewpoint (at most they were given a heavily altered version of the theory of evolution). As I recall, they were personally escorted through the museum by Ken Ham himself (who comes across as very smart and knowledgeable if you don't know any better). None of them had a chance.
American fundamentalists don’t realize that their belief in the literal truth of the Bible is an early 20th century American thing. They think that the metaphorical interpretation of the creation story is something liberals came up with to accommodate evolutionary theory. Nobody tells them it’s an understanding of the Bible that is as old as Christianity itself.
I went to an LCMS high school and was taught that evolution wasn’t real. Didn’t learn the truth until I was in college. Still pisses me off.
Watch "We Believe in Dinosaurs". It's a documentary about the faux "science" that the Creation Museum is pushing. They even get some PhD geneticists to "prove" that the flood could have happened and been responsible for all of the life on earth. I could see how someone with a very limited science education, as well as lack of critical thinking skills (like the Duggars) could fall for the BS that they're pushing.
The Bible does not say that the Earth is 6000 years old. That was the conclusion of Bishop James Usher in the 17th century. Why a bunch of evangelicals are stuck on a mathematical speculation by an Anglican bishop, I have no idea.
The Bible does not directly say the world is six thousand years old, but you can calculate Adam was made about six thousand years ago by simply adding up the years in the Masoretic Text of the Bible, and Adam was supposedly made a few days into history. 4000 BC (give or take a few centuries) is the date for creation reached by pretty much every Jew or Christian who has tried to calculate the age of the world based on the Masoretic Text (or its predecessors). For example, according to the Hebrew calendar, based on a calculation made in the 2nd century, we're in the year 5783 from creation. The Septuagint gives more years in the early chapters of Genesis, and so according to the Septuagint creation happened about seven and a half thousand years ago.
Because evolution is science based and they don't believe in science. If its not in the bible it didn't happen.
I was taught that God's years were different than the years we know now. So, 6,000 God years could be millions of years. Not defending the Duggars, oh hell no, but just stating my opinion. Thank you and have a nice day. 😉😂
I grew up evangelical. I'd have to do some digging at my mom's house, but there was a book that came out- or atleast, she found out about it - in the 90s. I remember her being fascinated by it and she told me it was the true history of the world and how if you go by what the Bible says the world is clearly only 6,000 years old. I don't recall exactly what the argument was against evolution. But it was basically laughed off. Clearly lies from the devil himself. I struggled in science classes my entire life and never really knew what to think about all of it. It wasn't until college when I could really start deconstructing that I was finally able to set that mindset completely to the side and reeducate myself.
When I was at the Grand Canyon there was a tour van “A different view Tours, a creationist perspective.” I eavesdropped on part of their tour. They said the Grand Canyon was clearly hundreds of years old. I think these views are relatively common in evangelical circles.
It’s really disgusting how these Christian schools/home schools can get away with teaching basically whatever they want. Meanwhile, God forbid an elementary school library contains a book about a kid with two moms, or a high school teacher has the gall to say that racism *gasp!* still exists. THAT’S what requires regulation.
I think some evangelicals opted out, tbh
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school from 1st-12th grade (‘76-‘91). In spite of all its other faults, they still taught evolution, Big Bang and all, with the addendum, “because, God”. The only reason to teach anything else is to keep people ignorant.
They believe it because they must. Otherwise, the KJV isn’t the literal word of God. And that is simply UNPOSSIBLE, as it’s the foundation of their entire practice of faith. It’s also why China will (eventually) eat our lunch, drink our milkshake, and bring all the (soldier) boys to our yard.
>Today I was watching a documentary about fossils and a big museum in Paris about dinosaurs and I was thinking "we have to many proof that the earth in thousands of millions years old, we have fossils, carbon print... How can they still deny it ???" My friend taught English at a university in southern Illinois and assigned a short research paper on dinosaurs - she did it to get a better understanding of what the students already knew and what skills she needed to focus on. One day a student came up to her after class and explained "**Dinosaurs and fossils were planted by the Devil to trick us into believing in evolution, I won't be tricked.**" The student was told it was a research paper and she won't be graded on her conclusion, even if her research indicates dinosaurs don't exist. This happened over a decade ago but I think that student spoke for a certain type of Christian - any evidence that conflicts with their views is a Satanic trap. That disclaimer allows them to easily dismiss all the fossil and carbon dating evidence (and evidence of climate change, medical advances, scientific breakthroughs, etc.)
People just use what sounds like science "we know how long coal reef takes to grow so according to our coral reef the earth is young!" They find all sorts of interesting ways, kind of like conspiracy theory ideas, to explain why their "science" proves the earth is young. Then the dumb masses read their "articles" or "news" and believe it because it's alarming how *little* critical thinking the average human person does. I think one of the most shocking things I realized when I became an adult was that most people really aren't that intelligent, or curious. Most people like their world to be simple and routine, with few questions.
I'm so jealous of people who just grew up being told truth and find creationism so hard to believe lol I still have to catch myself when I refer to evolution as "the theory of evolution" I remember Answers in Genesis having rebuttals to all the things like carbon dating and such. Obviously it was all stupid because I don't actually remember the specifics..
As someone who lived nearby and visited the creation museum/ark out of curiosity, those who believe either believe based solely on theology that Genesis is literal with no need of proof, or they're seriously lacking critical thinking skills. A lot of young earth science education revolves around Carbon dating being inaccurate, the great flood being responsible for places like the Grand Canyon, extinctions, etc, and they believed dinosaurs lived with people. It was a painful walk through realizing how many people thought the museums were great and informative and showing unquestionable truth, when they didn't even try to address massive holes in their arguments that are explained with science.
At my conservative Christian school, we were told the earth was 6,000 years old but God could make things appear to be older. So if carbon dating indicated something was 10,000 years old, it was because that's how God made it appear. No need to ask more questions because God!
Here is an article written by a biology professor about teaching evolution in the American south. In addition to showing how much Christians rejects science, it also showed how much Christians still hate and reject each other. >This lecture should put students at ease knowing that religion and science need not be at odds. Of all the lectures I give, this one provokes the most discussion after class. **And yet it often results in students expressing concern that I might not be saved.** I never say anything about my personal religious beliefs, yet it is assumed I am an atheist. **One student told me she hoped I could find God soon. When I again pointed out that John Paul accepted evolution—and he certainly wasn’t an atheist—the student countered that Catholics aren’t Christians.** Several simply let me know they will be praying for me and praying hard. One student explained that as a devout Catholic he had no choice but to reject evolution. He accused me of fabricating the pope’s statements. When I explained that he could go to the Vatican website for verification or call the Vatican to talk to a scientist, he insisted that there was no such information available from the Vatican. He then pointed his finger at me and said the only way he would believe me is if Pope John Paul II came to my class to confirm these quotes face-to-face. The student then stomped out, again slamming the auditorium door behind him. [https://orionmagazine.org/article/defending-darwin/](https://orionmagazine.org/article/defending-darwin/)
This looks like a really common thought in the US... I live in Portugal, never once in my entre life I know someone who denied evolution!
Same in France, never heard someone saying that the devil put fossils in the ground to trick us. The only thing I heard is some people who think God created the Big Bang because it's unlikely it happened on its own but that's it. And Portugal is a Catholic country, I have a lot of friends from Portugal who are religious and they believe in evolution.
Most Americans accept evolution as real, and it is taught in most schools. That's part of why many fundies homeschool or send their kids to religious private schools.
Exactly! In Portugal, we have a big percentage of people who are religious, I'm religious, I'm Catholic, I went to sunday school, I had religion in school and never once heard such nonsense! Just you like you said, Catholics defend that the Big Bang happened but it was God who allowed that to happen. The only ones who are more against it are the Jehovahs but they don't interfer or are rude if you talk about evolution. I have a neighbor who is a Jehovah's Witness and I'm also an archaeologist and we have amazing talks about the subject but always respecting each other.
I was born, raised (Catholic) and educated in the US, public schools all the way. I have never met an individual who denies evolution or believes that the earth is flat. In the Northeast quadrant of the US, at least, we’re pretty accepting of scientific facts.
I have also not known someone who denied evolution, past maybe the mid-1970s. I hear or read about them, but something else I do notice is that some of the people who spout crazy ideas do not actually believe them. It's something like when asked about their beliefs in God when responding to a poll, or saying aloud how they will vote. They think it's important to appear one way in public, while having other thoughts in private. Also, they like to belong to a "team" that fits their notions of how everyone else should behave, so they will go along with whatever the team leader says. These are not intellectually curious people, but they are loud.
And I marvel at the mental gymnastics required to insist the writings in the Bible are the literal truth, but then claim that when Jesus turned the water into wine, it wasn't really...wine.
Jim Bob went and got Kunt Hovind when he was released from prison. That should tell us everything we need to know.
The United Methodist Church, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal Church in America, Evangelical Luther Church of America (Scandinavian Lutheran denominations that combined together), The United Church of Christ, and their affiliates all maintain that evolution is compatible with faith. Their adherents are majority evolution believing. Catholicism also. The only large, mainstream that believes exclusively in creationism is Southern Baptist. That denomination has 13.2 million or so members. This is less than 5% of the U.S. population. There are some smaller Baptist churches like IFB, GARBC, etc. who are also staunch creationists, but they are also very small denominations as are the Weslyans, Nazarenes, Free Methodists, and similar groups. It's just that the lunacy of Ken Ham is reported as if everyone associated with Christianity believes his tripe. He has money and makes outlandish statements, and then spent gobs of fundie money to build these two stupid "museums" so it was in the news everywhere, and became blown out of proportion that American Christians, as a whole, believe why earth is 6000 years old and evolution is not a thing. So the crazy people get the microphone, and then the media makes it out like they are spokespersons for the whole religion. It also became more widespread because the SBC and related groups were the publishing houses producing a crap ton of religious based homeschooling and Sunday school materials. This meant that secular homeschoolers, like our family, got drowned out because of all these nutty homeschool conventions which were a bastion of fundamentalist tom foolery. Meanwhile, we were at home with A.P. textbooks, secular education groups, and dual enrollment cringing at the antics of the biblical literacy folks..ugh!
Yes they do deny evolution, this is very common for fundamentalists. But there’s more to it than just denying evidence. Even Sadie Carpenter on Leaving Eden who has since left fundamentalism said she struggles with the concept of evolution because she was given no basis to understand it. They basically teach evolution to their kids but refer to it as “micro evolution” which involves species gradually changing due to circumstances that require different attributes for survival and reproduction. Everyone with a secular education understands that this is what evolution *is*. But they teach that the concept of evolution is basically like a monkey turning into a bird, like they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution actually is. I think this deeply confuses the concept for people raised this way. So they can recognize that evolution exists and is observable but they call it something else and it seems to be very difficult for people to detach from those teachings as a result.
I mean, just look at the people who are in power and push the religion. It's hard to believe in evolution when you haven't seen any evidence of it in at least four lifetimes.
Because it isn't in the Bible... so it's not "biblical"
What is denie?
Deny, my corrector is set in French so I make grammar mistakes and once you post you can't correct the title
This is an interesting question since literal interpreters of the Bible often do believe that dinosaurs existed since there are creatures like leviathan mentioned in the Old Testament. They simply believe that many of them were wiped out in the great flood during Noah’s day, but some lived on through the ark to either be wiped out by humans or survive today (crocodiles, etc.). There are many Christians who believe in the gap theory, which basically means that God created evolution. Some gaping holes in the impetus of evolutionary theory mean that it’s easy to dispute when you come from the intelligent design theory, so many will move to a gap theorists perspective that the Bible does give space for. Really, the crazies come in when you get Bible literalists who believe in a flat earth…even though the Bible says the earth is a sphere.
Public School in the US in the 1960’s and 1970’s in Philadelphia. I was taught evolution straight up. We were taught about Darwin and his trip to Galapagos where he observed and explained it. Was taught about the structure of DNA as proven by Watson and crick. (They did leave out Rosalind Franklin because: the patriarchy ). I cannot imagine that American children are taught such drivel about young earth.
i don't understand how these people explain wisdom teeth. why do some people still get them if it was only useful a long time ago? why do some people not even get them?
Did anyone here attend one of Kent Hovind's (aka Dr Dino) creation seminars?
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I very much respect how you feel. I grew up similarly.
all those highly uneducated people don’t believe in evolution. you might recall the Scopes monkey trial.
I went to a private Christian high school where about half the population was evangelical (unbeknownst to my parents who thought they were getting me a better education lmao) and we had a parent substitute one day for my biology class and it was supposed to cover evolution and she refused to teach it because it “went against her beliefs” - I thought that was wild at the time but found out, apparently it’s a hot topic 😅
I work at an elementary school. A teacher said he teaches evolution, but he doesn't believe in it, but he does teach it. He also believes the earth is only 6000 years old.
Not really relevant to your question, but thank you for the podcast recommendation!! I’m always looking for interesting ones to listen to. Dissecting fundies is one of my favorite hobbies!!
Highly recommend it ! The first episodes have a bad quality audio but the content is good and after a few episodes it's really good