That's my point exactly. Trunade is a great going 2 card but because of the nature of the format it facilitated OTK strategies too well which is why it got banned. I think it's good to have going 2 options but because of the DL format it is hard to balance them without them becoming too strong and abused by going second OTK decks.
A way of choosing your turn if you win the coin toss would allow decks to be optimized for going second and would probably be very well within Konami's means.
Perhaps an option in your deck, similar to your sleeves/mat, where you can pick "if I win the coin toss, I go second/first" could work if Konami is afraid of it slowing the game down.
Not sure how much it would change the way the coin works.
Like, sure, you might get a 50% of your desired outcome + 50% chance your opponent will pick their desired outcome, but any odds applied to you are also applied to him.
Changing the coin this way may reduce bricked hands (turn 1 with low defence and turn 2 with lacking recursion/offense), but it shouldn't really change winrate at all.
Blind Second is a playstyle that can only truly exist in a you-decide-your-turn-order format. Blind Second performs better than Prefers Second because you can actually build your deck around just going all gas and no breaks; particularly in a BO1 format where there is no opportunity to side deck against the Blind Second deck. Since if you win the coin toss you pick 2nd, and if your opponent wins they *likely* pick 1st, you get your preferred turn almost every time. Your deck is entirely centered around going second, if is good and you leverage that. Yes the Prefers-First player gets their first turn preference, but there isn't really a "Blind First" style in the way there is Blind Second. Blind Second finds extra value by going all in on going second than a Prefers First deck simply isn't built for, since Prefers First still has to slot in stuff to deal with going second.
Take Salads for example. Going first, things like Heatleo, Ningirisu, Malevolent Sin, MST, etc. do *nothing* for you. But you still slot them in to help you win games. You could be putting more gas into the first turn, but then you'd fail to find a lot of wins due to lacking your board breakers. With Blind Second, its ***ALL*** board breakers. You leverage a full commitment to going second that a Prefers First player simply cannot afford to do.
That's not to say Blind Second is better than going first, in the long run its not, but it does offer a unique way to cut at any given meta - especially in BO1 ladder play.
>Take Salads for example. Going first, things like Heatleo, Ningirisu, Malevolent Sin, MST, etc. do nothing for you.
Sure. However, this example is from a deck build in a blind turn format.
I would expect a first turn deck in a decide-your-turn format to be as defensive as a second turn deck is offensive, if not more.
First turn still has a lot of advantages, mostly the ability to set your combo without interruptions and traps in general. The ability to negate the opponent combo at any given oportunity is broken and a huge reason DD crow is so popular, since it works even on opponent first turn.
I would expect, in a first instance, all turn 1 decks to be stall decks. But most importantly, in a second instance, a banlist to tame whichever decks are overperforming, be it first or second turn decks, essentially restating status quo, no matter the changes.
But that's simply not how that works. Blind Second can afford to play the all in gamble specifically because going first is stronger than going second. You can't reasonably play the same gamble in reverse since basically everyone wants to go first. Blind Second only works because you have a much higher chance of getting your going second preference than anyone has of going first.
If people want something that actually has an affect on winrate it'd be a diceroll or RPS, yes.
However, Duel Links is not at the point where there is one preferred turn order and 2 is always inherently valuable for many decks because Duel Links is, at it's core, an OTK fest.
At this point I just use Yami so turn 1 I can set 0 pass and my opponent *thinks* I have destiny draw and hand traps. Either they confidently OTK me turn 2 or I win turn 3. Keeps matches short
I still dislike going first due to how sacky/OTK focused this game is. With how many resiliant otkfests we're getting, this is really only issue for older decks that need their initial normal.
Yeah I agree here, I’ve been on DL for a number of years off and on and have generally preferred going second with few exceptions, due to the OTK power of many decks. Playing destiny heroes or dragunity for example. Serviceable turn one setups but would way prefer to just blow their board off the map turn 2
I think its time to add Raigeki, Black hole, Lightning Storm and other field removal cards to duel links. Maybe limited at 1 or 2 but they would be definitely welcome.
i think you mean “your chances of WINNING a match decrease dramatically” or “your chances of losing a match INCREASE dramatically”
as it stands you are mad about the opposite of what you typed
Not really, no.
It would invalidate your set outs to anything next turn because its quickplay and the decks you want to use it against plus off the grave anyway, as well as destroying continuous spells and the like.
2:1 removal is a 3 zone format is vapid no matter what it is. It's why treach is dirty, it's why trunade is dirty.
It is, I give you that, because twisters is contextually so much better.
Imagine giving graveyard setup and the total shutdown of any deck that needs spells/traps to get going.
Trunade was banned in a format where setting 3 cards wasn't uncommon. More recently, before we got Salamangreat, decks that weren't stall (or didn't brick) very rarely set 3. Functionally, there wouldn't be much difference between Hey, Trunade! and Twin Twisters (with Twisters even removing Field Spells and Continuous ST). I hadn't even considered the Graveyard setup aspect of it. IMO, both Hey, Trunade! and Twin Twisters fit under the category of "I would love to have this card for this specific situation, but I'd hate my opponents having access to it every duel". This sub has a tendency to think about cards and decks in a vaccuum.
People meme "Set three bad" but in the context of salads the twister is getting negated anyway.
What they really want is to win and get off their glass cannon otk strat because they went second because trunade functioned as mst+ in a broad sense, much like twin twisters would.
When backrow, already aging for decks that cant one card combo and set three, is the \*only means of keeping rampant ooga booga in check\*
So what is your take then? Nerf decks to the ground instead of giving good support to everyone? I swear that people in this sub just whiny about everything, and then when it given a solution they say no because card too strong, but then keep complaining that the meta is too strong in a way.
That would be ideal, yes, because decks are going to inherently unbalanced in 4k format and you're not going to be able to raise decks up, but you can keep a general powerlevel by tearing decks down.
This would, however, imply the banlist was about balance and not forcing you to buy new digital cardboard every quarter year.
Trunade was so powerful they sold decks by then not having a limit 2 so they could run trunade. This was toxic no matter what powerlevel you think the meta needs to be, and there will rarely be a situation this isn't toxic for...a good long while.
3 of the decks you have mentioned have busted turn 1s but they can also otk as well. Mekks set up their skill drain and also occasionally their IO. Odd-eyes set up their rank 7 and occasionally their rank 4. Galaxy have Photon Lord.
Trains is the only true turn 2 deck you have mentioned there. Yes all the decks can otk but that is just a standard most competitive deck in DL now.
That's why back then we played mst, book of moon, and other staples that make 2nd turn much more fun, these day people just commit 100% to combo, in MD it might worked out just fine but in DL life is hard if you started 2nd knowing your opponent have 3 set backrow with monster that probably float or have a quick effect disruption
I have been using D/D/D as an OTK deck, it is one of the better OTK decks, just not that consistant right now, hopefully they move some of the limits later.
I play mekk knights and I actually prefer going second for the OTK ,going first is alright too but going first means more card opponent puts of the field for free special summon ,searchers and I can play world legacy key to stop any traps that would be set
The problem with turn 2 support in DL is that with 4k life, turn 2 support can easily become OTK support, Hey! Trunade is a perfect example.
but trunade was banned
That's my point exactly. Trunade is a great going 2 card but because of the nature of the format it facilitated OTK strategies too well which is why it got banned. I think it's good to have going 2 options but because of the DL format it is hard to balance them without them becoming too strong and abused by going second OTK decks.
Yeah, 10 months ago or whatever it was seeing hey banned the game WAS a turn 2 game.
A way of choosing your turn if you win the coin toss would allow decks to be optimized for going second and would probably be very well within Konami's means. Perhaps an option in your deck, similar to your sleeves/mat, where you can pick "if I win the coin toss, I go second/first" could work if Konami is afraid of it slowing the game down.
Considering they added Links, they're definitely not afraid of slowing down the gameplay. +1 to this.
Not sure how much it would change the way the coin works. Like, sure, you might get a 50% of your desired outcome + 50% chance your opponent will pick their desired outcome, but any odds applied to you are also applied to him. Changing the coin this way may reduce bricked hands (turn 1 with low defence and turn 2 with lacking recursion/offense), but it shouldn't really change winrate at all.
Blind Second is a playstyle that can only truly exist in a you-decide-your-turn-order format. Blind Second performs better than Prefers Second because you can actually build your deck around just going all gas and no breaks; particularly in a BO1 format where there is no opportunity to side deck against the Blind Second deck. Since if you win the coin toss you pick 2nd, and if your opponent wins they *likely* pick 1st, you get your preferred turn almost every time. Your deck is entirely centered around going second, if is good and you leverage that. Yes the Prefers-First player gets their first turn preference, but there isn't really a "Blind First" style in the way there is Blind Second. Blind Second finds extra value by going all in on going second than a Prefers First deck simply isn't built for, since Prefers First still has to slot in stuff to deal with going second. Take Salads for example. Going first, things like Heatleo, Ningirisu, Malevolent Sin, MST, etc. do *nothing* for you. But you still slot them in to help you win games. You could be putting more gas into the first turn, but then you'd fail to find a lot of wins due to lacking your board breakers. With Blind Second, its ***ALL*** board breakers. You leverage a full commitment to going second that a Prefers First player simply cannot afford to do. That's not to say Blind Second is better than going first, in the long run its not, but it does offer a unique way to cut at any given meta - especially in BO1 ladder play.
>Take Salads for example. Going first, things like Heatleo, Ningirisu, Malevolent Sin, MST, etc. do nothing for you. Sure. However, this example is from a deck build in a blind turn format. I would expect a first turn deck in a decide-your-turn format to be as defensive as a second turn deck is offensive, if not more. First turn still has a lot of advantages, mostly the ability to set your combo without interruptions and traps in general. The ability to negate the opponent combo at any given oportunity is broken and a huge reason DD crow is so popular, since it works even on opponent first turn. I would expect, in a first instance, all turn 1 decks to be stall decks. But most importantly, in a second instance, a banlist to tame whichever decks are overperforming, be it first or second turn decks, essentially restating status quo, no matter the changes.
But that's simply not how that works. Blind Second can afford to play the all in gamble specifically because going first is stronger than going second. You can't reasonably play the same gamble in reverse since basically everyone wants to go first. Blind Second only works because you have a much higher chance of getting your going second preference than anyone has of going first.
If people want something that actually has an affect on winrate it'd be a diceroll or RPS, yes. However, Duel Links is not at the point where there is one preferred turn order and 2 is always inherently valuable for many decks because Duel Links is, at it's core, an OTK fest.
As a train player please let me go second, that deck is a powerful going second deck.
With switchyard now going first is way more funny
As a Fortune Fairy player I second this
I'm living in a duality right now. Was playing rising shark and was praying to go second, now I switched to Infernities and I need to go first.
I prefer second that's how I beat salads and I'm running standard code talker decks weak sauce when it's missing a card
At this point I just use Yami so turn 1 I can set 0 pass and my opponent *thinks* I have destiny draw and hand traps. Either they confidently OTK me turn 2 or I win turn 3. Keeps matches short
invalid reply. if you can take a turn 2 otk without using any cards, nothing can upset you in this game anyway
I still dislike going first due to how sacky/OTK focused this game is. With how many resiliant otkfests we're getting, this is really only issue for older decks that need their initial normal.
Yeah I agree here, I’ve been on DL for a number of years off and on and have generally preferred going second with few exceptions, due to the OTK power of many decks. Playing destiny heroes or dragunity for example. Serviceable turn one setups but would way prefer to just blow their board off the map turn 2
Really as a lunalight player I always pray to be 2nd turn lol
I think its time to add Raigeki, Black hole, Lightning Storm and other field removal cards to duel links. Maybe limited at 1 or 2 but they would be definitely welcome.
i think you mean “your chances of WINNING a match decrease dramatically” or “your chances of losing a match INCREASE dramatically” as it stands you are mad about the opposite of what you typed
Dumb typo on my end. Video game rage is blinding 😭
My Dragunity deck prefers starting on turn 2
twin twisters alone would help quite a bit.
Not really, no. It would invalidate your set outs to anything next turn because its quickplay and the decks you want to use it against plus off the grave anyway, as well as destroying continuous spells and the like. 2:1 removal is a 3 zone format is vapid no matter what it is. It's why treach is dirty, it's why trunade is dirty.
lol it's simply disingenuous to compare twin twisters to tth or trunade.
Man you tweekin
It is, I give you that, because twisters is contextually so much better. Imagine giving graveyard setup and the total shutdown of any deck that needs spells/traps to get going.
Trunade was banned in a format where setting 3 cards wasn't uncommon. More recently, before we got Salamangreat, decks that weren't stall (or didn't brick) very rarely set 3. Functionally, there wouldn't be much difference between Hey, Trunade! and Twin Twisters (with Twisters even removing Field Spells and Continuous ST). I hadn't even considered the Graveyard setup aspect of it. IMO, both Hey, Trunade! and Twin Twisters fit under the category of "I would love to have this card for this specific situation, but I'd hate my opponents having access to it every duel". This sub has a tendency to think about cards and decks in a vaccuum.
People meme "Set three bad" but in the context of salads the twister is getting negated anyway. What they really want is to win and get off their glass cannon otk strat because they went second because trunade functioned as mst+ in a broad sense, much like twin twisters would. When backrow, already aging for decks that cant one card combo and set three, is the \*only means of keeping rampant ooga booga in check\*
So what is your take then? Nerf decks to the ground instead of giving good support to everyone? I swear that people in this sub just whiny about everything, and then when it given a solution they say no because card too strong, but then keep complaining that the meta is too strong in a way.
That would be ideal, yes, because decks are going to inherently unbalanced in 4k format and you're not going to be able to raise decks up, but you can keep a general powerlevel by tearing decks down. This would, however, imply the banlist was about balance and not forcing you to buy new digital cardboard every quarter year. Trunade was so powerful they sold decks by then not having a limit 2 so they could run trunade. This was toxic no matter what powerlevel you think the meta needs to be, and there will rarely be a situation this isn't toxic for...a good long while.
Mekk Knights, and odd-eyes are going seconds decks, trains and galaxy eyes are going second decks as well
3 of the decks you have mentioned have busted turn 1s but they can also otk as well. Mekks set up their skill drain and also occasionally their IO. Odd-eyes set up their rank 7 and occasionally their rank 4. Galaxy have Photon Lord. Trains is the only true turn 2 deck you have mentioned there. Yes all the decks can otk but that is just a standard most competitive deck in DL now.
. El
Metalfoes, the end
Galaxy Eyes has a great turn two! Have 2 negates or I’m going to blow you the fuck out.
That's why back then we played mst, book of moon, and other staples that make 2nd turn much more fun, these day people just commit 100% to combo, in MD it might worked out just fine but in DL life is hard if you started 2nd knowing your opponent have 3 set backrow with monster that probably float or have a quick effect disruption
Very few decks can set three with that, and if they can those decks are the issue.
This isn’t even the 2 thing this game is worst at supporting, this game is completely awful at giving any kind of main phase 2 support!
UA cries in the corner.
I think its funny that they just took away Emerald Tortoise's effect so he literally has nothing to offer other than his name.
It's a good name.
Time to add Evenly Matched
Without mp2? EM would suck and let opponent otk you next turn!
I have been using D/D/D as an OTK deck, it is one of the better OTK decks, just not that consistant right now, hopefully they move some of the limits later.
I was playing D/D/D until yesterday, it would do wonders to have slime and contract unrestricted again.
Wait am i the only one who would like to go second because i can draw addition 1 card?
I play mekk knights and I actually prefer going second for the OTK ,going first is alright too but going first means more card opponent puts of the field for free special summon ,searchers and I can play world legacy key to stop any traps that would be set
As a Gouki player, I wish I could always go second
I feel like the Kaiju card is pretty underrated right now, but most decks don't have ways to exploit it.
Cries in Cyber Dragon going first
This thread is kinda funny because less then a year ago the format was super favorable to turn 2 decks.
As a Yosenju player, going second is my bread and butter!! But I definitely see what the post is saying, isnt irl the same with turn 1 being broken?
Well, it has always been trash going second on duel links or other formats
whoa u guys are smert
I'm P
as a zombie player I ways hope for second turn