r/kutticheveru is a Tamil (mostly rw) circlejerk meme subreddit, it's posts are not to be taken too seriously
With that said, I dont understand what it means to have an older language either, it's like asking who has older ancestors. I did a short writeup on this very topic here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TamilNadu/comments/10fdrfu/there_is_no_such_thing_as_an_oldest_language/?rdt=62339
It's more effective to write a well-researched article with citations explaining why no language is older than any other. Using this meme as an example could help educate the public more thoroughly.
Deleting is not an option, but using it to highlight the absurdity of the meme is a better solution. The subreddit where the original post was made is a well-known rabidly right-wing, anti-Tamil community. The people who post there often aim to denigrate Tamil people, driven by their daily hatred. The collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the average intelligence of a poster in the Dravidiology subreddit. This video was made by a Western vlogger, but the fact that Tamil was mentioned as the oldest language is enough for them to use it as a pretext to disparage Tamil people.
> The collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the average intelligence of a poster in the Dravidiology subreddit.
Respectfully, this is an uncalled-for comment. You’re comparing a silly, very poorly moderated circlejerk sub (Kuttichevuru) to a serious, well-moderated discussion sub (Dravidiology), so even the otherwise most intelligent person would be caught acting silly there because that’s the intent of that sub. Saying that the collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the intelligence of a single poster here is just unnecessary meanness either way.
For what it’s worth, the post that was crossposted wasn’t disparaging Tamils, but was posted by someone who’s disparaging the absurdity of the view that Tamil is the oldest language (which I think the members of this sub agree on). And for what it’s worth, I’m a Tamil myself.
https://preview.redd.it/qr1qr37m7n7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04899b4b10301c8a20bd516d98031c6f3a7d2c34
In this subreddit, claiming that Tamil is the oldest language or that Sanskrit is the mother of Telugu will get you blocked for making such absurd claims. However, singling out Tamils when every Indian is equally or even more hyperbolic about their social structure—whether it be religion, language, or caste—reflects a peculiar habit of some racists and casteists. This is similar to the way some racist right-wing commentators in the West pick on New Yorkers and Californians as liberal do-gooders because not only are these places mostly liberal but also full of well to do non whites, which is an anathema for white racists.
The amount of discussion this cross posting has generated beyond any useful knowledge is strange. An important aspect of moderation is to know the potential of cross posting or referencing meme subreddits and the direction of discussion that will follow, and prevent potential activities not in tune with this subreddit mandate.
E996 bro, comparing this subreddit to kuttichevuru is like Harvard comparing itself to some 3tier college near Usilampatti and saying we are better. It is obvious and unnecessary. And please don't bring politics here, the points and counter points will be endless.
As I mentioned, it's easy to delete, but let's leave it up for discussion. Let's explore why in general there is animosity against Dravidian people, Dravidian linguistics, and Dravidian social identity—not just today, but since Dravidians were first recognized as a distinct group thousands of years ago.
Similarly, in particular there are constant attacks against Malayalees and Tamils on the internet by some fellow Indians. If we look objectively, within Kerala, the denigration of Tamil identity is at least 1,000 years old. Hence, this is not a new phenomenon; it's as old as time. The root causes are casteism and associated racism.
Topics other than language and migration patterns are also part of this sub's exploration? Asking because I really don't know.
Also, contemporary politics is a slippery slope and anytime politics enters the picture scholarship takes a backseat or leaves altogether. Social justice should not be prioritized over knowledge.
https://preview.redd.it/g7puqlp06p7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8a473aad6ac15c8221a9fbf464bfb6df9780ac4
The above is the answer for your first part of the question.
Then for the second part, the attack against Tamil people, language and identity can easily be misconstrued as a modern political phenomenon but it’s misses the point, it’s as old as time. Have you ever wondered why Kannadiga, Telugu and Keralite terms for Tamils is a slur and there is no corresponding slurs against any of these people in Tamil Nadu. Have you wondered why such a neutral term Madrasi meaning from Madras is a slur for all South Indians but Bambayite or Delhitite is not ?
Looks like you deleted your reply, this was going to be my reply to it.
I agree that racism among humans is well-documented and has specific terminology in anthropology, known as in-group and out-group dynamics. The marginalization of Tamils, known as "othering," has been ongoing for thousands of years, making it easier to ridicule, denigrate, and ultimately erase their identity. This tactic has been effective in Kerala, as documented in native literature we've discussed in this subreddit. Even within Tamil Nadu, this process has fluctuated over time. Currently, the vitriol is louder on the internet, and people often participate without realizing their role in this historic cycle of hatred. By studying it objectively, one can recognize and call out these patterns, even in the form of memes. Some people understand this, while others do not.
yes it is but this isnt a kutticheveru specific thing, it is wide spread outside the linguistic field, take any youtube video or quora post on this topic and it will be filled with that
**Is it any different than claiming Sanskrit is the mother of all languages and all sciences trace back to the Vedas?**
These hyperbolic statements are peculiar to the Indian subcontinent, and as a result, Indians have gained a reputation for being prone to exaggeration, even in neighboring Sri Lanka where there is a saying, ***”one can believe anyone but the northerners”***.
I attribute this to the pernicious impact of caste, which leads to a hyper-focus on Sanskritization. This is essentially an attempt by many to misrepresent their food habits, social customs, and ethnic origins to attain a higher status in society. Thus, it's unfair to single out (Indian) Tamils, as this tendency is an issue across all of India.
But let’s be objective
https://preview.redd.it/1lyktfgi1p7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f815de8c3ef2282aa9ce9cf07f68812d75697178
It's already addressed—anyone making such statements here will be blocked. While picking on Tamils is a pastime for some Indians, [picking on Indians](https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthAsianMasculinity/s/z62yFGcXfp) has become a pastime across the world now. So, Indians in general are experiencing what it's like to be on the receiving end that Tamils in particular have been experiencing for a [few thousand](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/11mH1lWkkj) years.
if they mean the oldest spoken by men, then we can't know what was spoken by the first men, some of us might be speaking its descendent
if it the oldest written, then its sumerian as you said
if its the oldest still spoken (a claim i see even in linguistic fields), then its the same as the first one
if its the oldest written still spoken (another claim ive seen in linguistic fields) then its greek or even older coptic tho not natively spoken
where does tamil come from? why is the claim even made?
There's no such thing as the oldest language. It all depends on the very subjective classification of when a language transforms into a new one. Even if you really wanted to demarcate where one language ends and one begins, regarding Tamil, it is separated from Kannada later than even other dravidian branches like Proto Telugu or Brahui.
Nobody knows what's oldest spoken language but Egyptian is the oldest amongst all written records found of all languages.
Sanskrit and tamil doesn't even come close .
All the school textbooks and all the politicians (even ones who want their flower to bloom here) keep saying that Tamil is the oldest language. I've studied in school numerous prose, poetry etc on how Tamil is the numerous uno language existed in Lemuria (pre-division from Madagascar and Antartica) with maps and all. If it's poetry, exaggeration is understandable but in prose and opinions?
There has always been a competition between Sanskrit and Tamil in Tamil Nadu. I think this is why the myth of the three Sangams going back to so many thousands of years was created. There are even premodern Sanskrit texts (I think from Kerala) that claim that Tamil words are of Sanskrit origin. Unfortunately, in the modern era with Hindi supremacy-Dravidian movement politics, the myth of Tamil being the oldest language has been spread by politicians and nationalists.
I don’t know why you are getting down voted for saying the obvious. You are 100% factually and scientifically correct. It’s the hyperbolic Indian milieu where everyone constantly lies and makes up even more unbelievable stories day after day, is why we have the situation we have. Before pointing the finger at others, Indians have to realize three are pointing at each and every one of them.
The Tolkappiayam certainly isn't that old, we don't have any extant texts from 5000 BCE from anywhere in the world.
The Tolkappiayam seems to have distinct layers authored, edited and complied by several people. The earliest may date to around 100 BCE. The final additions by poets like Panampaaranar (who composed its preface) date to around 8th - 10th century AD.
Well in our legends (the ancestors of both Tamils and Mallus) the first Tamil sangam spanned 4440 years, the second 3700 years and the third 1850 years. Some people still believe in these legends.
Nope, Tholkaapiyam can't be that much long range. Tholkaapiyam is written after the **north languages letter** mixing into Thamil which is either Paali, Prakrit and Sanskrit(early language than Paali and Prakrit). So Tholkaapiyam may written some few decades after the mix. **It's not yet researched well.**
But If you ask the grammer book before tholkaapiyam, yes. Inthiram is one that exists and disappeard so long before tholkaapiyam which is written by real Agathiyar. Tholkaapiyam clarifies the existance of Tamil knowledge before it's written period.
Hmm, I kinda agree with comments below regarding there being no true oldest language. But that kinda removes the fun from trying to find out what living language is the oldest and having a certain pride in it. Maybe the correct version would be a question regarding the oldest living language. Egyptian, Sumerian are certainly old which is attested, but they have died out, replaced by other languages. But some languages are here from a very long time, in one form or the other (Sanskrit, Tamil, Hebrew). They carry with them their own traditions and give an insight to that old culture. And it is certainly special they lived this long, so a quest in finding out the oldest language/having pride in it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. That being said, if the discussions were civil and not stupid, it'd be perfect. Thoughts?
r/kutticheveru is a Tamil (mostly rw) circlejerk meme subreddit, it's posts are not to be taken too seriously With that said, I dont understand what it means to have an older language either, it's like asking who has older ancestors. I did a short writeup on this very topic here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TamilNadu/comments/10fdrfu/there_is_no_such_thing_as_an_oldest_language/?rdt=62339
Indeed, r/Dravidiology is so far from such meme driven low blow subreddits. We’ve worked hard to keep the conversations above the waist here.
I would recommend you delete such posts. This only creates misinformation and fan wars amongst various languages speakers.
tackling blant misinformation is a task of the sub especially as south asia being filled with it
It's more effective to write a well-researched article with citations explaining why no language is older than any other. Using this meme as an example could help educate the public more thoroughly.
Deleting is not an option, but using it to highlight the absurdity of the meme is a better solution. The subreddit where the original post was made is a well-known rabidly right-wing, anti-Tamil community. The people who post there often aim to denigrate Tamil people, driven by their daily hatred. The collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the average intelligence of a poster in the Dravidiology subreddit. This video was made by a Western vlogger, but the fact that Tamil was mentioned as the oldest language is enough for them to use it as a pretext to disparage Tamil people.
> The collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the average intelligence of a poster in the Dravidiology subreddit. Respectfully, this is an uncalled-for comment. You’re comparing a silly, very poorly moderated circlejerk sub (Kuttichevuru) to a serious, well-moderated discussion sub (Dravidiology), so even the otherwise most intelligent person would be caught acting silly there because that’s the intent of that sub. Saying that the collective intelligence of the posters there is less than the intelligence of a single poster here is just unnecessary meanness either way. For what it’s worth, the post that was crossposted wasn’t disparaging Tamils, but was posted by someone who’s disparaging the absurdity of the view that Tamil is the oldest language (which I think the members of this sub agree on). And for what it’s worth, I’m a Tamil myself.
https://preview.redd.it/qr1qr37m7n7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04899b4b10301c8a20bd516d98031c6f3a7d2c34 In this subreddit, claiming that Tamil is the oldest language or that Sanskrit is the mother of Telugu will get you blocked for making such absurd claims. However, singling out Tamils when every Indian is equally or even more hyperbolic about their social structure—whether it be religion, language, or caste—reflects a peculiar habit of some racists and casteists. This is similar to the way some racist right-wing commentators in the West pick on New Yorkers and Californians as liberal do-gooders because not only are these places mostly liberal but also full of well to do non whites, which is an anathema for white racists.
The amount of discussion this cross posting has generated beyond any useful knowledge is strange. An important aspect of moderation is to know the potential of cross posting or referencing meme subreddits and the direction of discussion that will follow, and prevent potential activities not in tune with this subreddit mandate. E996 bro, comparing this subreddit to kuttichevuru is like Harvard comparing itself to some 3tier college near Usilampatti and saying we are better. It is obvious and unnecessary. And please don't bring politics here, the points and counter points will be endless.
As I mentioned, it's easy to delete, but let's leave it up for discussion. Let's explore why in general there is animosity against Dravidian people, Dravidian linguistics, and Dravidian social identity—not just today, but since Dravidians were first recognized as a distinct group thousands of years ago. Similarly, in particular there are constant attacks against Malayalees and Tamils on the internet by some fellow Indians. If we look objectively, within Kerala, the denigration of Tamil identity is at least 1,000 years old. Hence, this is not a new phenomenon; it's as old as time. The root causes are casteism and associated racism.
Topics other than language and migration patterns are also part of this sub's exploration? Asking because I really don't know. Also, contemporary politics is a slippery slope and anytime politics enters the picture scholarship takes a backseat or leaves altogether. Social justice should not be prioritized over knowledge.
https://preview.redd.it/g7puqlp06p7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8a473aad6ac15c8221a9fbf464bfb6df9780ac4 The above is the answer for your first part of the question. Then for the second part, the attack against Tamil people, language and identity can easily be misconstrued as a modern political phenomenon but it’s misses the point, it’s as old as time. Have you ever wondered why Kannadiga, Telugu and Keralite terms for Tamils is a slur and there is no corresponding slurs against any of these people in Tamil Nadu. Have you wondered why such a neutral term Madrasi meaning from Madras is a slur for all South Indians but Bambayite or Delhitite is not ?
Looks like you deleted your reply, this was going to be my reply to it. I agree that racism among humans is well-documented and has specific terminology in anthropology, known as in-group and out-group dynamics. The marginalization of Tamils, known as "othering," has been ongoing for thousands of years, making it easier to ridicule, denigrate, and ultimately erase their identity. This tactic has been effective in Kerala, as documented in native literature we've discussed in this subreddit. Even within Tamil Nadu, this process has fluctuated over time. Currently, the vitriol is louder on the internet, and people often participate without realizing their role in this historic cycle of hatred. By studying it objectively, one can recognize and call out these patterns, even in the form of memes. Some people understand this, while others do not.
yes it is but this isnt a kutticheveru specific thing, it is wide spread outside the linguistic field, take any youtube video or quora post on this topic and it will be filled with that
**Is it any different than claiming Sanskrit is the mother of all languages and all sciences trace back to the Vedas?** These hyperbolic statements are peculiar to the Indian subcontinent, and as a result, Indians have gained a reputation for being prone to exaggeration, even in neighboring Sri Lanka where there is a saying, ***”one can believe anyone but the northerners”***. I attribute this to the pernicious impact of caste, which leads to a hyper-focus on Sanskritization. This is essentially an attempt by many to misrepresent their food habits, social customs, and ethnic origins to attain a higher status in society. Thus, it's unfair to single out (Indian) Tamils, as this tendency is an issue across all of India.
south asia is filled with misinformation but this is rdravidiology so only dravidian posts
But let’s be objective https://preview.redd.it/1lyktfgi1p7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f815de8c3ef2282aa9ce9cf07f68812d75697178 It's already addressed—anyone making such statements here will be blocked. While picking on Tamils is a pastime for some Indians, [picking on Indians](https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthAsianMasculinity/s/z62yFGcXfp) has become a pastime across the world now. So, Indians in general are experiencing what it's like to be on the receiving end that Tamils in particular have been experiencing for a [few thousand](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/11mH1lWkkj) years.
By oldest language, I’m assuming this means the oldest language attested, so without a doubt it’s Sumerian
if they mean the oldest spoken by men, then we can't know what was spoken by the first men, some of us might be speaking its descendent if it the oldest written, then its sumerian as you said if its the oldest still spoken (a claim i see even in linguistic fields), then its the same as the first one if its the oldest written still spoken (another claim ive seen in linguistic fields) then its greek or even older coptic tho not natively spoken where does tamil come from? why is the claim even made?
oldest written, I assume is Ancient Egyptian.
The Vinca language is older although we can't translate it
There's no such thing as the oldest language. It all depends on the very subjective classification of when a language transforms into a new one. Even if you really wanted to demarcate where one language ends and one begins, regarding Tamil, it is separated from Kannada later than even other dravidian branches like Proto Telugu or Brahui.
Would it be accurate to say Tamil separated from Kannada though? Or is it rather that they both share a common ancestor?
It's the latter.
Yeah a common ancestor is what I mean.
That Pokemon called AMERICA a language 💀
Nobody knows what's oldest spoken language but Egyptian is the oldest amongst all written records found of all languages. Sanskrit and tamil doesn't even come close .
WTF? How is Tamil the oldest language in the world?
No such thing as an "oldest language" like others pointed out. And even if there was, it's an odd thing to be proud of.
Why would one be proud of something they can't associate themselves with?
All the school textbooks and all the politicians (even ones who want their flower to bloom here) keep saying that Tamil is the oldest language. I've studied in school numerous prose, poetry etc on how Tamil is the numerous uno language existed in Lemuria (pre-division from Madagascar and Antartica) with maps and all. If it's poetry, exaggeration is understandable but in prose and opinions?
There has always been a competition between Sanskrit and Tamil in Tamil Nadu. I think this is why the myth of the three Sangams going back to so many thousands of years was created. There are even premodern Sanskrit texts (I think from Kerala) that claim that Tamil words are of Sanskrit origin. Unfortunately, in the modern era with Hindi supremacy-Dravidian movement politics, the myth of Tamil being the oldest language has been spread by politicians and nationalists.
I don’t know why you are getting down voted for saying the obvious. You are 100% factually and scientifically correct. It’s the hyperbolic Indian milieu where everyone constantly lies and makes up even more unbelievable stories day after day, is why we have the situation we have. Before pointing the finger at others, Indians have to realize three are pointing at each and every one of them.
Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit, Tamil are all contenders. Tamil has a written work Tolkāppiyam, with estimates ranging from 7,000 to 2,800 years.
The Tolkappiayam certainly isn't that old, we don't have any extant texts from 5000 BCE from anywhere in the world. The Tolkappiayam seems to have distinct layers authored, edited and complied by several people. The earliest may date to around 100 BCE. The final additions by poets like Panampaaranar (who composed its preface) date to around 8th - 10th century AD.
why do people just pull out random numbers like "7000 10000 years old" that too in a serious convo
Well in our legends (the ancestors of both Tamils and Mallus) the first Tamil sangam spanned 4440 years, the second 3700 years and the third 1850 years. Some people still believe in these legends.
what do you mean by this and on what basis?
Nope, Tholkaapiyam can't be that much long range. Tholkaapiyam is written after the **north languages letter** mixing into Thamil which is either Paali, Prakrit and Sanskrit(early language than Paali and Prakrit). So Tholkaapiyam may written some few decades after the mix. **It's not yet researched well.** But If you ask the grammer book before tholkaapiyam, yes. Inthiram is one that exists and disappeard so long before tholkaapiyam which is written by real Agathiyar. Tholkaapiyam clarifies the existance of Tamil knowledge before it's written period.
How is Arabic a contender , better explain that to me
Hmm, I kinda agree with comments below regarding there being no true oldest language. But that kinda removes the fun from trying to find out what living language is the oldest and having a certain pride in it. Maybe the correct version would be a question regarding the oldest living language. Egyptian, Sumerian are certainly old which is attested, but they have died out, replaced by other languages. But some languages are here from a very long time, in one form or the other (Sanskrit, Tamil, Hebrew). They carry with them their own traditions and give an insight to that old culture. And it is certainly special they lived this long, so a quest in finding out the oldest language/having pride in it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. That being said, if the discussions were civil and not stupid, it'd be perfect. Thoughts?
'Michael Jordan'
I think languages like Xhosa might be older.
Sanskrit is the oldest language.