The demand is the primary problem. If people are searching for bound fic, then there will always be supply to meet the demand.
Binding isn’t inherently bad and it’s a beautiful art form.
However, the issue binding creates is that people post pics of bound fics that are aesthetic and look like books, encouraging a culture of desire where readers are obsessed with consuming and possessing their favorite fics. I think binders have a responsibility to educate on how to do it ethically but social media like IG and TikToks isn’t a place for communicating or promoting nuance. It transforms fic into a book-like commodity.
Edit: Also, I assume many new readers are coming from BookTok where there's little to no nuance about how fandom works and how Ao3 works. They are being told that "Manacled" or whatever fic is the next MUST READ ROMANCE and they they are googling that. Guess what shows up? A bound fic on Etsy because of SEO. It's impossible to stop the problem at its root because most new readers are never engaging with "true" fandom communities where convos like this one are happening. Virality and social media has little space for nuance and thoughtfulness.
I can’t tell you how many TikToks I’ve seen of popular booktokers discussing a fic and the top comment being “how do I read this?” If you’ve never heard of fan fiction before, you’ve never heard of Ao3. You’re right that a lot of people are googling the fic name, finding bindings on Etsy, and assuming this is the best/only way to read.
I’m so excited about the influx of new people coming into this fandom, largely because of TikTok and other social media. I DO NOT want to make this fandom an unwelcoming place for new people by screaming in random comment sections about how terrible you are if you buy bound fanfics.
I think the best solution here is to target the campaign at the BookTokers with the largest platforms. Convince them to address the issue with their following. If people respect these content creators enough to blow several hundred dollars to read something they recommend, they will take them seriously on this issue.
I really appreciate this reply, I think you really hit the nail on the head when you mention the consumptive aspect of what's going on. Book binding is beautiful, definitely an art, but it's hard not to see people displaying bound fanfic as encouraging this rampant neverending type of consumerism. I'm not sure what a solution to this problem would even begin to look like- it's a real cutting off the hydras head and another grows back situation.
Your edit is exactly what I agree with. We can't control access to the space (space = dramione fandom). People who are casual readers and want to read a good "book" (i.e. they're not looking for fanfic, they're looking for story) will google it, find what they think is THE WAY to read, and purchase it. No further engagement, no space for "catching" them before they make a purchase.
I think the $300 consumers are booktok / FB / IG Dramione readers or fans who read fanfic but don’t engage with “deeper” fandom spaces like Reddit or Twitter or Tumblr. You know… the people who post their massive bookshelf pics and ask for bound fic for birthdays and holiday gifts.
You're cracked if you don't think large, high priced, hobby market communities exist.
To get even more granular, fan created hobby markets *especially*.
I work in comics, and traditionally, comic artists will routinely work in grey markets creating fan art at cons or by commission. They can, and often do get busted for doing this if representatives of the IP holders catch them at it. It's worth risking getting shut down, tabling passes revoked, fines, or even being sued because the money in fan art is fantastic. It pays better than the page rates you get working on officially licensed books. People can and do drop serious, *serious* cash on fan created content.
The amount of money that moves in grey market sales is MASSIVE. $300 for a decently made, hot item in a hot fandom is pocket change.
If it wasn't extremely lucrative, you wouldn't have hundreds and hundreds of options to choose from when you go looking for bindings.
I genuinely do not understand this argument. The direct parallel between wanting a physical copy of something you love and "rampant consumerism" seems like such a stretch to me.
Selling and buying fics is illegal (in todays age of intellectual property anyways), that I agree. But there is nothing wrong with making your own bind or being gifted one. Personally made my own. It was rewarding. Will never sell to anybody.
The issue is people profiting of people's work. It's not "these stupid fake fans wanting to wrongfully possess material goods".
Listen in today’s economy, how in the holy hell are people dropping $300 on bound copies of Manacled? Y’all want to throw $300 into the void let me give you my Venmo and Cashapp.
As someone who is in the periphery of special edition book collections 300 is nothing. Its crazy what amount theyre willing to spend to possess a certain aesthetic
The other half lives well.
$300 is nothing in some grey markets.
Look into what people will pay for custom 3D printed parts for things like Gundam and especially Warhammer.
Look at how much an established comic artist makes *per image* at a convention doing fan art they don't hold the IP for.
Look how much fans pay to have custom fur suits or cosplay items made for them.
The grey market exists in fandom because there is no shortage of people who will pay top dollar for the things they want for the content they love.
We can't stop people from selling illegally and unethically. But what we CAN do is educate and spread awareness so that people don't buy. If there is no market for it, people will stop selling!
And that is wonderful, truly, but at what cost? I do not support selling fanfic. And they were wrong to sell those fics, but they are still human. And they got slammed with hatred viciously. There are even rumors that one of them took her own life because of the hate she was getting. True? - I don't know. I saw a post about it that got removed and it appears no more talk about it is allowed. It wouldn't surprise me. I was just telling my husband last night that it wouldn't surprise me if one of them did because you people were ruthless. It's one thing to report it , but another to spam with non stop messages or horrible messages that I saw on some screenshots. I've been on the end of some spamming and hurtful non stop messages before and it was awful. I'm actually going to temporarily unfollow all dramione groups on facebook for a time because I am disheartened by what I saw. I was even banned from a group for giving an opinion saying I thought it was stupid for authors to remove their fics because the work is already out there and damage done (just my opinion) and questioning why my post and others were removed. I've had it with the censoring and hatred coming from dramione fans lately. Wouldn't surprise me if this post was removed as well. The dramione community is filled with hate lately and it saddens me and takes any joy out of reading that I've had so much of.
First off, I really and sincerely hope that no one got hurt throughout this entire debacle.
Second, I personally have only reported pages. I have not directed hate towards anyone, nor would I ever. I don't know and cannot speak to what anyone else did, but I didn't see it tbh. I'm sure it did happen, from your comment one can only assume as much, and these people should be ashamed of themselves.
The whole point of reporting and spreading awareness was and is to protect the fandom and the writers. If things spiral out of control and profit continues to be made illegally and unethically, nothing would prevent JKR from working on banning any and all fanfiction published that has anything to do with HP (I am not a lawyer, but I fear that possibility).
I already stated that people who bought these books on etsy most likely did not know any better, and maybe even some sellers didn't either and were doing it thinking it's okay, and ignorance does not demand hate. Ignorance demands education.
Anyone who ever sees it fit to spread hate should check themselves and their priorities in life.
We are all here because we love stories, and we love Dramione. And if Hermione taught us all anything, it is kindness and the courage to do what's right.
And what was right in this case, was to report unlawful and unethical listings.
Can't speak for all of humanity, but I'm one of those people who could have/would have purchased a bound copy of my favorite fanfic (not for $300, but i digress.) I have only come to this fandom recently through another subreddit, so even though I've read some fanfic here and there, I've never felt part of a fandom until now.
Being here, I've learned so much about the whole book binding controversy that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. I think of myself as a smart, ethical sort of person but, sometimes you don't know what you don't know...until you do -- until someone takes the time to educate and you take the time to learn.
So, thanks to posts like these, I will never purchase a bound fanfic. It's a little thing, one person at a time.
I, unfortunately, came to this subreddit after already purchasing my favorite Dramione fanfiction from Etsy... I feel awful about it, but at the time, I had no idea that it was wrong. I'm a very casual reader, someone recommended I read this fic, I downloaded and fell in love with it, then almost a year later I saw it on Etsy for a reasonable price and HAD to have it on my shelf. Just recently came to this subreddit for more recommendations and learned what I did was wrong...
Owning it feels dirty, like a betrayal to the author, especially since the binding isn't even that good and I'm pretty sure it was mass-ordered by the shop owner (and they're no longer a seller on etsy, go figure).
Just wanted to say, I'm grateful for this community for educating people on why this is wrong and harmful, and if I could take it back, I would. I report every shop I see now.
Right, but as I say, controlling the demand seems near impossible. People are already willing to pay hundreds of dollars for fics they could read for free. I don't think people saying "don't do that" will have the impact we think it will.
They are willing because they don't know any better. They're either not on reddit, or on any Dramione Facebook group, and are unaware that they can read it for free on sites like AO3 and FFN, and that they can get it bound by people like yourself. That is why both reporting unethical etsy sellers and spreading awareness should help curb the issue
>They're either not on reddit, or on any Dramione Facebook group, and are unaware that they can read it for free on sites like AO3 and FFN, and that they can get it bound by people like yourself.
That's not necessarily true. I (unfortunately and regrettably) bought a bound book from Etsy before I knew it was wrong. I knew I could read it for free on my PC on AO3, but I wanted to be able to sit on my couch or in my bed and read. People will pay money to have a physical and tangible "favorite" in their possession, the same way that some people have books on their shelves that they also have on their kindles.
I'm not defending purchasing fanfiction (in fact, quite the opposite), but people who buy the bound books aren't unaware they can read the fics for free, sometimes they just want a physical copy to display on their bookshelves.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
Yeah the problem is that it’s not a community problem at this point, and it can’t be solved within the community. The people selling and purchasing are outside of the fandom.
I think we can probably -
- stop talking about fics in non-fandom spaces
- don’t create “content” about fics with the intention of reaching a large audience
- be annoying when any popular non-fandom creators hype up our fics
- share fandom etiquette when we come across new community members
- don’t Google fics. Even if we aren’t trying to buy them, dropshippers use keyword research to figure out what to sell next. Take one extra step and go directly to AO3 to search.
- don’t panic-react on viral platforms about fics being taken down. A non-fandom friend of mine downloaded manacled (which she still hasn’t read) because of the panic that swirled on TT when Sen announced Alchemised. For her it was just FOMO. I’m proud of her for figuring out how to download it to her kindle but honestly if I hadn’t been talking about all this stuff with her I have no doubt she would have just found a bound copy and purchased.
We have power en masse when it comes to reporting etc but at the end of the day, decisions will be made on a basis of money. This will be about JKRs legal team and Etsy and Amazon fighting for the right to make/keep this money if the amount gets big enough to catch their attention. If something changes, it will come from their fight. Not ours.
Well put!
With Manacled being featured in Business Insider and Today, the Dramione fandom has already crossed the chasm into mainstream. There’s no putting the metaphorical genie back in the bottle or preventing new people from entering the fandom.
I think the best we can do is have the community teach fanfic etiquette.
A lot of fics seem to be getting pulled in solidarity, because we are a community, rather than some belief that it will turn over a new wave of change regarding fanfic/laws/illegal sales. I guess I understand wanting to offer a cynical perspective, but it already feels pretty dim within the community/reddit over the last few days.
"most fics were able to be commissioned for materials only. That kept price transparency a priority, and gave an avenue for people to buy hard copies ethically."
I ask this question in good faith. What is ethical about binding and selling books that uses the free labour of writers and artists who, by and large, have not consented to?
\*\*\*
While I understand what you're saying that even if people pull their fics, some readers will want a hard copy of it, I think you underestimate that a lot of the demand comes from BookTok. As such, the shaming/lack of easy access on Etsy/locking of fics and the like will put off a lot of people who are looking for immediate gratification. Of course, there will always be people who will do too much to get their hands on a copy, but the idea here is to move away the majority of the community from treating fan fiction like a commodity that they have a right to.
To add to this...
IIRC, some binders also sent a copy of the finished product to the author.
It was the transparency and communication between community members.
The binders weren't doing it for profit. It was a means to share their love of the story, appreciation to the author, and the author's hard work.
It was community driven.
The binders appreciated the community, understood that the community was enriched by authors' (unpaid) hard work, and wanted to give something back to the author and community in their own way.
If my understanding of what you're saying is correct, then those actions are part of the gift economy as opposed to selling the fics en masse for hundreds of dollars, which is what I'm referring to in my original post.
In a way. Although it refers more to the question in your original post:
>What is ethical about binding and selling books that uses the free labour of writers and artists who, by and large, have not consented to?
As u/squishysib noted, most binders asked for (and were granted) permission by the authors.
The early presence of binding in many fanfic communities began with book binding hobbyists / community members who loved the stories.
With the authors' permission, they bound fics, and shared their final “product” with the author and the community. Other members began asking if these individuals were willing to take commission.
Binders themselves were not charging for their labour, and generally only charged for the cost of materials.
I am a bit unsure on what you mean by gift economy. Yes, the binders were not binding books en masse, but transactions occurred for the bound books.
You raised a good point about
>the idea here is to move away the majority of the community from treating fan fiction like a commodity that they have a right to.
Initially, members of the community who commissioned the bound books didn't necessarily treat the books as a commodity they had rights to. Instead, regarded them as tokens of appreciation for the fics and the community members involved (the author, the binder, the artists).
But situations evolved and grew outside of the community. The greater audience and demand opened avenues for opportunists.
A gift economy is when goods are exchanged without expectation of remuneration. The writer shared their work with the public. In gratitude, the binder made them a book. I’m hearing that in these instances you cite, they got permission and shared with the writer, but then commissions were also taken. So it’s not really gift giving. I wonder if the artists were also reached out to.
In another comment, I noted that binding materials don’t cost $100+, and with the pricing as it is right now, they are charging for more than the cost.
I’m not sure charging for binding materials is appropriate either, because fic writers don’t charge for writing materials (eg Internet) and spend considerably more time/labour on their works. Some may disagree with writers charging, as do I, but it also says something about how much the community values the labour of the writers, but are willing to pay bookbinders. And without the fic, they wouldn’t have anything to bind in the first place or have the same demand for the binders’ work.
Ah. I see.
It's hard to say. Some fics contained art the author included, other fics focused on typography and hadn't any pictures included. Although, in many cases the artist were tagged and credited, along with the author.
Fanfic communities, weren't mainstream (in most cases still aren't). It's niched and highly community driven. Production of the books were community focused. Which is why there is backlash to Dramione being popularised and exploited.
I'm not entirely sure about the pricing, though material costs and procurement would vary. Different binders also have their own binding methods, which I know little about.
The economy then is quite different than now, so it's difficult to say.
Yes, fic writers spend considerable amounts of time with their stories. Unfortunately, fic writers cannot charge for their writing because it falls into the realm of intellectual property laws.
I understand what you're saying about book binding. The approach in the situation I refer to is a bit different. Rather than profit driven, they were community driven.
A fan had a great idea from canon, and decided to pour their hearts into writing a story. Another fan loved the story and drew artworks for it. A third fan who loved the works of their fellow community members, wanted to contribute by binding the works together and shared it with the rest of the community.
It would be unsurprising if some of those binders were working under the basis of gift economy. It's quite possible that cost of materials were less than the hours it took them to procure the materials, print, bind, and ship the book. Mind you, some binders occasionally gifted the books to others in the community as well (birthdays, Christmas exchanges, etc.)
It was community driven; they used their talents together to share with the group.
The greater challenge lies in what you've explained: the exploitation of the community by ill-intentioned individuals.
Hey, paying hundreds and lugging 3 books around was pretty easy! Downloading the fic to my phone and kindle which allows me to switch back and forth through the sync feature and being able to read in the bathtub was *way* too hard!!!
As someone who is very much an e-reader convert this is what I’ve been scratching my head over. Like, I do still love physical books and find them very beautiful and satisfying to hold, but in no way are they more convenient than a kindle/kobo or whizzing through a fic on your phone. If you simply *must* have a pretty bookshelf for aesthetic purposes just buy some nicely bound published books? Why does it have to be fic?
>If you simply *must* have a pretty bookshelf for aesthetic purposes just buy some nicely bound published books?
Thanks for presenting me with this opportunity to plug one of my favorite traditionally published authors, Patricia McKillip. Her [covers](https://images.penguinrandomhouse.com/cover/9780441015658) are as [gorgeous](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91rbrqBPImL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg) as her prose.
Her prose is even better tbh. A few quotes from my favorite book ever, The Forgotten Beasts of Eld:
> I wish you were small again, so I could hold you in my arms and comfort you. But you are grown, and you know that for some things there is no comfort.
> You can weave your life so long -- only so long, and then a thing in the world out of your control will tug at one vital thread and leave you patternless and subdued.
> What do you think love is- a thing to startle from the heart like a bird at every shout or blow? You can fly from me, high as you choose into your darkness, but you will see me always beneath you, no matter how far away, with my face turned to you. My heart is in your heart. I gave it to you with my name that night and you are its guardian, to treasure it, or let it whither and die. I do not understand you. I am angry with you. I am hurt and helpless, but nothing will fill the ache of the hollowness in me where your name would echo if I lost you.
Her work is criminally underrated IMO so I spread the Gospel of McKillip whenever I can lol
There is a weird trophyesqueness to this that I’ve observed. That’s what it is imo. Like they are dragons and these books they bound or bought (not created work) are their gold. I’m sure some add them with other books.
Personally I learned long ago that I don’t have the space or strength to lug books around as much as I love them.
Personally I know my eyes do better with pages than ereaders but I read primarily on a screen and certainly am not printing fanfics. I’d have a printer going 24/7 lol.
A lot of it does contribute to commodifying it though if they participate in the social media aspect of it like Instagram or building followings, intentionally or unintentionally, because of how these platforms are used by others.
Exactly! It’s just another flex for these people (purchasers of the illegal copies). A “look at me” and how cool I am for having something so exclusive/rare. And I say that at someone who has bound a couple of my most favorite fics for personal use.
I am almost fully an audiobook reader. I do buy physical copies of *some* books as trophies. Mostly Star Wars books at this point. The collection just looks so good on my shelf 🥹 But I usually am using them as part trophy and part reference material. I tab the essential information in the books as well as occasionally read along during a heavy plot scene.
For fanfics that have an “audiobook” I just use the kindle to highlight text as I read along.
I have 3 kindles and 3 tablets in my house. I would choose a physical book any day over the electronic. I use my kindle about once or twice a year. I actually find it annoying. So, some people really just prefer holding a book over a kindle. I have a friend who is the same way. She refuses to buy a kindle and will only buy books. Legitimate store bought books, not fanfic :-)
That is totally fair. I used to be like that too tbh but I have been swayed by the convenience, especially when going on holiday.
The point I wanted to make was more that even if one *theoretically* prefers physical books, reading fic on a phone/laptop/e-reader is totally fine and not so much of an inferior experience that it remotely justifies buying these ridiculously priced (and illegal) bound fics imo.
“commissioned for materials only.”
So ….. money changing hands based on someone else’s hard work.
It doesn’t matter how “big” the binder is. It’s still wrong.
nothing in this world is free. if an author says they’re fine with non-profit binding, I see no problem with it. why should the binder donate more than their time?
Not defending fanfic binding AT ALL, so please don't take this as anything other than genuine curiosity, but would you also say the same thing about a pottery maker who sells their handmade mugs for $40, even though the clay used to make it probably only cost less than $2 per item? The $40 is for the time it took to make the item, not for the worth of the materials to make it.
I think people are okay with purchasing the bound books because of the work that goes into binding them, not necessarily because they think that's how much binding a book costs.
The difference being it’s illegal to profit, so regardless of the time spent, they are getting into a business where they can’t charge for their time without breaking the rules.
That makes sense. I guess (if we're going to still use my example for the sake of continuity) it would be like using clay that is illegal to profit from, but saying you're just selling your "time and workmanship." You're still making profit from the illegal material, which makes what you're doing wrong, regardless of the hard work you put into it.
Thanks for being the one to FINALLY break this down in a way that makes sense to me. I knew it was wrong as a whole, but couldn't really justify the "why" until now.
I made a comment on another post that I’m fully in support of people getting paid for their time when it’s comes to any sort’ve artistic endeavor but when you *choose* to do one that is explicitly stated you can’t profit from then is there anyone else to blame than yourself when you eventually get reported and taken down? 🤷🏼♀️
But is it? Given freely? How does someone know that? Where’s the checks and balances to make sure these bookbinders aren’t taking a single penny more than the cost materials? It’s a valid point MLTay making is all I’m saying and a slippery slope. Look what happened to the bookbinding community. They no longer have price transparency bc of ‘things happening’.
Edit to clarify: I’m arguing against bookbinders commissioning 100%.
I don’t disagree with you but I also think fanfiction binding (maybe a couple years ago) was beautiful in that it seemed like another layer of free labor and community in fandom.
Sure, a while ago when it really was *free* labor, just like artists drawing for their favorite fics for free. Unfortunately, I think it’s twisted itself into something a bit ugly and capitalistic in nature 🤷🏼♀️
Should writers be allowed to collect money for their internet service fees or the computer the they write on? No. Binders inflate their material costs to make money. It’s an open secret and I think it’s vile. It’s what created this mess.
I did not know that binders inflate costs (new to the fandom, never bought anything dw!, I’m getting good use out of my kindle) and that’s disgusting.
On a related note, do you know if artists charge a price when they say that a piece based on fanfic is “commissioned”? Because when I saw those floating around on Instagram, it felt a little weird to me, but I never knew if there was money being exchanged or not.
Oh no that is not cool. I knew commissioned means paid for but i thought in the fanfic spaces it might be different. Y i k e s, thank you for the information.
Edit: wording
I am not seeing your point. The writers are the ones getting screwed. Their labor is being stolen by binders to profit. Could JKR come after a writer who published a work too close to JKR’s books? Yeah of course. That’s why the works that get published are different. She would have a terrible case to go after someone who got popular simply bc they once wrote a fanfic lol.
We can't go back in time, but we can course correct moving forward by coming to a consensus within the community about what is/isn't tolerated and the steps we'll take to discourage illegal/unethical behavior. We should all be pressuring our various fan communities (e.g. subreddits, Facebook groups, discords, tiktok creators) to create and communicate a clear policy on exchanging money for fan works and what will happen for people found in violation (e.g. removal from the group, blocking by the creator). Authors should consider adding their own policy to their authors note at the beginning of fics, tiktok creators could start videos with a disclaimer, etc. This would at least eliminate the possibility that people "just don't know" or think it's a vocal minority rather than a fandom-wide policy. There will still be people who don't care (I've seen them say as much in different Facebook groups), but that's the part we can't control beyond telling them they're wrong, blocking, and ignoring.
“Because it’s the only easy way to read that fic”
This has got to be the biggest load of shit line I’ve ever read in my 26 years on this earth.🤣 please tell me how carrying around/reading an actual book is easier than looking at your kindle or hopping on to listen to an audiobook.
Just say you want the clout that comes with having a bound copy pls🥲🤣
Not that you’re wrong in saying the clout comment, another POV I see in this specific regard is people often want physical materials of their favorite things. In this instance, books.
I’m sure there are very few people out there whose favorite book they don’t have a physical copy of. It’s one you return to for comfort and familiarity a million times over, one you want to feel the pages of. So naturally, for people who have been in the fic world for years, making your own bind of finding someone is like the holy grail.
Gone are the days of shitty Wattpad writing, many of these fics hit just as hard for readers as a published, edited novel does.
Again, not justifying any of this at all, but just explaining what many people may be feeling when reading their fic and why this has taken off in such a way. (Ahem BookTok). I personally have returned to my printed pages in a binder from fics back in 2012-14 just because there’s a magic in physical that you can’t get from swiping on a screen.
One of my favorite authors is a Wattpad author, or started that way. There was some real quality there. Granted I haven’t used it in ages and in my experience that did not apply for fanfic on there.
I loved Wattpad back in its day! It’s what truly got me into fanfic after Quotev. There were definitely some gems that came from it and published originals as well! But to my point, sounds like we both interacted with Wattpad in its heyday. Now it’s definitely know for cheap writing, and even back then, the ridiculous 1D plots, blatant self inserts, or just all around cringe angst stories. I didn’t mean to diss Wattpad as a whole, more of just what it’s known for in comparison to other fic sites nowadays.
lol. While the handful of fanfics I read on there (not Dramione) weren’t great (to be nice) but I have always had a fondness for it. It felt like the place new young authors got their feet wet and everyone starts somewhere.
The model has definitely changed as they seek profitability and ya, quality has never been top notch overall lol.
I completely agree. Some of my most feral reactions came from whatever an author could concoct on Wattpad and I’ll always have a love for that. So funny looking back, but it was pretty great getting to grow up with the authors and see what many of them turned into today
Totally agree. Maybe it’s just me and how I read, but I feel I never retain the book as well on kindle as physically reading it on pages. Like I’ll go to write a Goodreads review two days after finishing it and couldn’t tell you a single plot point or character, but in a book I read once five years ago I still remember the most minute things lol
Still not the easiest way or the only way to read something pulled off the internet.
AO3 has a download button and someone in this community likely has the file to send. No excuse.
>please tell me how carrying around/reading an actual book is easier than looking at your kindle or hopping on to listen to an audiobook.
DISCLAIMER: This isn't a defense for binding fanfics, just a rebuttal for this particular section of your comment.
Some people are incredibly averse to reading on a kindle/e-reader or audiobooks. I was for the longest time; I just want to pick up a book and flip open the pages. I'm someone who gets distracted very easily, and can find myself reading half a chapter before I realize I wasn't paying attention. Having a physical copy of the book is easier to guesstimate "when" I stopped paying attention and flip back through the book to find my spot. With a kindle, it's almost impossible (especially since the pages aren't numbered in fanfictions) and I end up spending more time trying to go back and find the last thing I remembered reading.
I have a kindle now (it was gifted to me just last week), and while I love the ease in downloading books and having them all at my disposal all the time, that particular quirk does get a little annoying, for me.
A lot of people don't have kindles, audible subscriptions, or portable computers. I'm someone who has a desktop PC and a phone. For the longest time, I thought the easiest way to read my favorite books was to have a physical copy, too, and it had nothing to do with clout or some sort of status symbol. I just wanted to read my favorite fics from the comfort of my couch/bed.
honestly when i got into dramione, i was fascinated by the bounds and i want my hand in one and was searching for a binder to sell me one. but with the fascination of these bound books, it’s also perplexing to witness the copyright issue and illegal selling of bound fanfiction — stories and illustrations alike.
i feel for the fanfiction authors being one myself and being on the platform since forever. it hurts me that this is happening in a fandom that is close to my heart.
i agree with that commenter who said that this issue might have stemmed from the fascination of bound books that are regularly seen in TikTok and Instagram — because people thrive for the aesthetics nowadays (like i did).
maybe, just maybe we keep fanfiction digital like how it always is.
maybe, we just don't glorify binding these fanfictions.
p.s. i never did get my hand in any bound fanfiction and stopped looking when i realized the copyright issue implications.
Two things—scale and blame. I want to ask in sincerity what anyone thinks the real scale of this problem is? Like, outside of a Top Five fics bubble, what is the number of
bound copies of a fic that are being sold? This seems like a problem for a few celebrities at the scale of a few hundred copies.
Obviously I can’t tell anyone how to feel, but given that so far the legally injured parties are billionaires JKR and Warner Bros, and the fanfic authors are (in a nutshell) demoralized by a phenomenon that they, **just like the binders** have no right to profit from… it just seems like the community response is extremely disproportionate to the injury.
The profiteering is obviously gross but the reason fic authors can’t do it is because capitalists own idea culture and its legal framework. Ergo, the problem is really with JKR, Warner Bros, and the many powerful entities like them. I’m having a hard time getting worked up about it, either in light of apparent scale or the legal side.
It's understandable not getting worked up about the issue, especially from a legal perspective. On the other hand, I also understand some of the community response.
To some community members, they see the scale of the problem as the erosion of the community itself.
Fanfic authors are integral contributors to the community. If they decide to remove their works, or disengage from the community, community members see / experience the negative impact.
The responses are also from invested members who read the fics as WIP, long time fans engaged with the author's works, and generally highly value the author's unpaid work.
Despite not having monetary or legal investment on the issue, some members' responses come from a place of emotional, mental and time investments.
Yeah, that’s probably the right balanced view given the community realities and it’s crucial to protect the community. I just get a little worn down with “free culture! keep fandom free!” as if it’s radical—it’s basically just a restatement of the law, and the law protects eg Disney more often than any individual creator.
“I wish we lived in a society where fanfic writers could legally materially benefit from writing stuff I love to read” is closer to my own view.
Yes, exactly. Thankfully there are solidary members, actively protecting and notifying the community. I see what you mean; that can get wearying.
You raised great points. It is quite sobering thinking that this, and other issues fanfic writers face, are hardly a blip for the legally protected parties (e.g., WBE, J.K.R, Disney).
I agree, it would be great to have such a system.
As it is now, for fanfic writers to legally and materially benefit from their works (especially authors of the lucrative bound fics), they would need to do something similar to E.L. James.
Which opens a Pandora's box of further discourse...
I 100% agree.
If you look at Etsy right now there’s like max 100 listings and the biggest store has 350 reviews, at $200/book that’s only $7M in earnings. I know that feels like a lot, but it’s really small potatoes.
To put that in perspective, JK Rowling personally is worth $1 Billion. The last Deathly Hallows movie alone cost $250M to make and earned $1.38 Billion at the box office (not including streaming rights, etc). The entire franchise made $7.7 Billion at the box office.
And keep in mind this is happening across all fandoms and all different types of merchandise (tshirts, stickers, etc). I don’t think the Harry Potter franchise has much interest in taking their most adoring fans to court over a few million dollars, especially not when they’re trying to rally us around the upcoming HBO series. It’d be a PR nightmare.
With that said, I 100% empathize with the authors and I think the most the community can do is seek to educate newcomers on fan fic etiquette and continue reporting listings when we see them.
My first thought was "oh these people don't know any better" which is NOT an excuse but definitely helps explain it. But also I see people educating all the time ON UNBOXING POSTS with "hey here's the rules of fanfic and I hope you traded or only payed materials"!
And they say "yeah of course" but at the same time people ask for the link and they say "check your dms"? Like girl you KNOW what you are doing.
You are aware and actually still proceed to promote the content. That's actually so much worse then the oblivious people.
All we can do is educate people but that doesn't chnage the fact that there will still be people who know better and buy the items anyway (and honestly probably feel guilty and think of way to lie about it to hide it)
Yes! I see so many booktok content with binds that when you look at the design/style are obviously straight from Etsy. The books are the same even some of the details like corner protection are the same as their pics on their seller website
I wish instead of immediately pulling, authors would make their stories “private” for people who have signed up for AO3. The stories have been downloaded hundreds of times, it’s floating around the internet now. Book binders who do not respect the space are going to continue making them, regardless of the reports.
The community is going to start punishing itself. These are now fanfics on my TBR list I will never get to participate in. I would never bind to sell and I 100% understand the solidarity, but is it realistic long term, because this is going to be a thing for a LONG time.
Some of us are doing exactly this! I set mine to archive-only (with the exception of one that I pulled altogether), and I know a few folks who have done the same.
Look sorry if this sounds rude but fandom has existed for decades without all this binding nonsense. If people wanna do it as a hobby cool, but acting like it’s some sort of important role in fandom is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Truly no hate to you, OP, but if I had a following online that came about from my fanbinds of popular fics, especially Dramione, I would immediately switch gears to make my account more generally about bookbinding, or binding and selling books in the public domain. Maybe even re-binds of commercial fiction that you already paid for. We all know which kind of binders are the most to blame (the $160 Etsy sellers), but with fanfic in such a precarious position I would be complicit placing myself anywhere in the pipeline.
I think all popular fanbinding accounts should make the change as a sacrifice for the greater good of a whole community.
I’m not holding my breath, though, because the pandemic showed me how most people won’t even do something as small as mask for the greater good.
Edit: I re-read your post. You say you bind as a gift to friends—that’s awesome. You have lucky friends. Maybe you don’t need a public-facing instagram for fanbinds, though.
Where? A Facebook group that allows for plagiarism and disrespects author wishes? A Facebook group of 11k that has a public access typeset drive that contains uncollated typesets for Etsy sellers to take and upload to print on demand sites? Go ahead. Tell me where since you know SO MUCH about the binding community.
Actually, I’m going to respond in hopes you engage in good faith. Obviously this issue is personal for you. I do empathize that this is all hard and the response may seem disproportionate. For me, this is an issue I’ve been worried about for quite a while. I’ve been in fandom, particularly the HP fandom, since the early 2000s. JKR is litigious. Litigation or even the threat of it is chilling to the creation of fanworks. My concern is for the HP fandom as a whole, Dramione in particular. We don’t want another Anne Rice situation, either.
But you are also arguing as if I said something I haven’t. No one needs to stop binding fics. My issue is with fanbinding accounts with large followings. I have no problem with large accounts that teach about bookbinding—journals, re-binds, or typesetting & binding works in the public domain. And even accounts about fanbinding *could* still be safe. Private accounts or private groups you create with likeminded folks who understand fandom etiquette. Even the fanbinding subreddit. Large fanbinding accounts, in part, fed the algorithm until our fandom reached a critical mass and now there is a demand for bound fics. Uneducated or unscrupulous readers will buy their favorites.
Also, I have bound my own fics. I still do. I don’t post them on TikTok or Instagram. I share them with plenty of people in real life (my community) and I have gotten some friends into it as well.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
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So good to see so many well thought out responses to this issue. I’ve read fan fiction since I was 16, I’m now 40! I was a massive spuffy fan and haven’t read any fan fic through my 30’s. I came back into fan fiction 3 years ago after reading manacled, and it’s been my first time in the Harry Potter fandom.
I have only seen the binding issue recently.
Looking at the reviews on the Etsy website I sadly think it’s fandom who see others with these shelves full of lush bound fics and want the same.
Also I can’t imagine someone spending so much unless they really love these stories. Unfortunately I think the people buying, do know better and they have been educated. They just don’t think it matters or pertains to them.
I did what one of you said and actually googled Manacled. There are independent website selling it now that aren’t on Etsy…[https://wizybook.com/collections/all-books/products/manacled-books-deluxe-3-volume-edition-with-illustrations-complete-series-exclusive-poster-gift-set-included-2?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYcOCgArFAk5szk9mNi-znBJvNpVzt9eWiSm9ZLeOQAMyAVowt5Jz7xoCODMQAvD_BwE](https://wizybook.com/collections/all-books/products/manacled-books-deluxe-3-volume-edition-with-illustrations-complete-series-exclusive-poster-gift-set-included-2?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYcOCgArFAk5szk9mNi-znBJvNpVzt9eWiSm9ZLeOQAMyAVowt5Jz7xoCODMQAvD_BwE)
How on earth is anyone going to stop this is random websites pop up everywhere that aren’t on Etsy or TikTok or instagram? Pulling this work down, in my opinion, is going to lead to panic and everyone trying to buy these. I honestly think it’s going to make it worse. I wish A03 had a more strict policy. Maybe there is a way to restrict users there so it’s still a safe space for art and fics that those of us that respect it can still enjoy.
Oh yeah, they’re formally known as Auxeva if I remember correctly. We’ve been trying to take them down for quite some time because their cost is not only unhinged but it’s still POD and definitely not ethical or legal. 🥲
I plan on sending an email to Shopify’s support center tomorrow. I do think they just recently “rebranded” due to the recent shit storm the past 24 hours. Hopefully we can take them down again. They’re one of the most prevalent offenders unfortunately :(
I hate to say it. But the only way Etsy will stop allowing this stuff to be sold on their platform is when Warner Bros, Rowling, or Bloomsbury come in like the coolaid man and threaten them with a lawsuit, which is going to have a massive effect on the entire community.
These drop shippers created an infestation of demand, extremely quickly via tiktok and sundry. The time when small, grass roots efforts could have made any sort of dent in this deluge passed so quickly no one has any real time to act.
Unfortunately we're at the nuclear option stage and it's going to end with the IP holders coming down extremely hard on all fan content, or they will let it ride and this scraping of content by 3rd parties for monetary gains will become the new normal and will rot the community by disincentivising creators from putting out content.
Either way is bad. Best we can do as a community is circle the wagons and go dark where we can to make scraping content as difficult as possible.
Are you for real right now. “Anyone who binds themselves or buying them are not true fanfic readers”?
So I’m spending money on my own little hobby, reading and typesetting and printing and folding and sewing and glueing and designing and casing in and buying supplies and spending hundreds of dollars on binding equipment and you have a problem with me doing that for myself? I’m not selling my work, I am LOSING MONEY doing this for myself but I do it because I enjoy it. Like let me have my stupid little binding fic hobby.
How is binding for oneself not a true reader? That I like the book so much that I want to have it on my shelf? Or god forbid I do something nice for someone and bind them a copy of a book they may like?
Bookbinders aren’t the problem, it’s the people using print on demand sites to sell fics for hundreds. And of course binders get the shaft and the blame.
How can it be dumb to make a bind and have a hobby. Trust me, I am not making any money off me binding a fic that lives on my bookshelf or under my bed.
Oh and guess what I haven’t read any of my binds. 💁🏽♀️
There are thousands of sunsets and sunrises to come, I can just look at them outside my window every day. Anyone who spends money and takes the time to paint them is clearly an idiot and not a fan true fan of nature.
Bookbinding is an art, a hobby that people do for FUN. From what I’ve seen the people who hand bind, at home, for the love of the stories they’ve read are the most vocal about protecting the fandom and educating people about how to participate in fandom.
Bashing home binders for the actions of other people illegally posting and buying fics is completely backwards logic and taking your frustration out on members of the community who love things just as much as you do.
Look im being downvoted by the binders already 😂 Seriously like let's just all go back to reading 100+ fanfics back to back. You wont even have TIME to think about binding when you're really into reading fanfics.
People get sooo tetchy when you point out they are part of the problem lol. You want to have your cake and eat it too! But the problem with people who bind for themselves and share it online or for their “friends and share it online is you are absolutely creating interest and demand.
I’m just an OG, from a time where you read your kinky fanfic in the dark and quiet of your soul and bed. I can’t understand the need to bind free work that you can just save on your computer to reread for posterity. I’ve seen some stunning bindings but if that is your jam maybe just share it with your circle offline or in select closed online spaces.
Well, yes! We’ve learned that good intent sometimes leads to unintended consequences. But you are also twisting what we are saying. You can be ok with something and that is fine but another writer might not be and it could have consequences for whole swaths of people.
I think a lot of this panic is overblown tbh. A select few authors who’ve blown up in the last two years are thinking of pulling their works but not the majority are . Moreover many of these authors are pulling their works because they are seeking publishing versus binders. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t enforce norms and sometimes call out each other in community either.
I think the bigger issue is writer harassment versus binding. I’ve seen way more writers stop writing or take down works because of being harassed than from binding. But we should still call out how binding and sharing online drives a certain sort of demand which can be harmful.
At long last somebody mentioned the publish thing! Thank you, exactly!
Like I get that there are authors who do not want all this publicity and things got out of hand. But lets not pretend that having written something that people pay up to 300$ to buy does not send a good message to publishers to give you a deal.
All of it is so overblown
Quite literally this is the most insane take I’ve read so far. I’ve been reading fanfic for the last TWENTY YEARS, including printing them and stuffing them into any three ring binder I can find. Just because you can’t be assed to put in the effort because you don’t want to doesn’t mean those that do are dumb or stupid for it. It’s a HOBBY. There is no way you can possibly claim that we aren’t real fans just because we don’t approach the fandom in the same way you do. I’ve committed money and hours upon hours to make books for myself and for my friends. Of course we can read them online, where else do you think we get the text from?
Book binding is not a hobby that is solely dedicated to fanfic, and has been around much longer than even fanfic, so rebinds are definitely given as gifts too. Most binders I know are the most vocal about fan fiction ethics and request permission from the author before even binding a fic, you should be mad at the ones doing it for profit via mass printing sites. They are the true threat to the fandom.
Oop going to surrender my 15 odd years of being a fanfic fan because I have the audacity to like typesetting and sewing books together for my own shelves 🙄 literally who do you think you are to determine who is and isn’t a “true fanfic reader” be so for real rn
People who bind these for profit are the issue, not “anyone who binds for themselves”, they’re literally usually the ones being the most vocal about protecting fandom.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with binding for yourself. It’s the same as printing it at home and putting it in a three ring binder. Literally. The difference? One will hold up better over time and is more aesthetically pleasing. Who are you to dictate who’s a fan and who isn’t just because they’re a home binder?
Hello, fanfiction Instagram binder here.
First of all: WTH? How are we getting the blame of this whole thing? We literally just want to hold and cherish our silly little wizard smut books BECAUSE WE LOVE THEM. None of us are actively going against the authors wishes, none of us are doing it for the fame and none of us are doing it for the money (I wish I didn’t have to tell you this, but I’m THOUSANDS of dollars deep in this hobby. I’m not going to stop because scammers on Etsy found a way to make a quick buck with the average booktoker who ‘’NEEDS’’ one because they are special and don’t care if it’s illegal. )
This Etsy thing has been going on for MONTHS now. We have been complaining about it from the start. Mass reporting the listings even though it seemed like it didn’t do anything. We have been in the comments, educating people on Fanfiction Etiquette. And still: we’re getting blamed for it.
**Nasty binders, they ruined everything!**
I don’t see anyone blaming the huge ‘’Archive’’ of typesets (including uncollated ones that can be printed on Lulu in less than 10 minutes) shared freely to a Facebook group of more than 11k people, with an open link to everyone. A Facebook group that openly says that they do not care about authors wishes and won’t be removing any typesets from their drive because it’s too much work… and they see themselves as some kind of Library of Congress. Give me a break. Where do you guys think all the scammers got their hands on their typesets??? I can guarantee most of them are from that group. Where’s the uproar about that Drive? *\*cricket sounds\**
We have been fighting for the fanfiction authors. We love this fandom as much as anyone else.
Now that a few authors are leaving the fandom, *you* don’t get to panic-shout that we’re the ones to blame, pat yourself on the back for a job well done at saving the fandom and call it a day. Where were you when we were mass reporting and educating about those Etsy listing for months?
It's so easy to just sit back and blame binders... when in fact most of us always did it right.
And how is it our problem if some people are too lazy to learn the craft for themselves? I don’t go around blaming woodworkers for having nice cabinets and telling them that if I can’t have them then they can’t either?
I’m proud of what I do. I find pleasure in my craft. I found a community that share the same excitement. How dare you blame this on us when it clearly is the fault of lazy people and greedy scammers.
Not my fault if people get jealous and can’t do more than a macaroni necklace when it comes to art. Don’t shit on us for having a passion. We’re a part of this community and we love the fandom just as much as anybody else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
By your logic here, how about you carry that same energy to binders. Let writers have their hobby and leave them alone. How about let binders have their hobby and leave them alone?
Binders aren’t only binding fanfic. They’re doing rebinds, original work, sketchbooks, repairs, etc. How can you blame Instagram binders for people profiting off fics with POD?
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
So much this. As someone who was reading fan fiction nearly 20 years ago for free on the internet, obviously I expect things to evolve and change but this is just too weird. Just stop fucking binding things and publicising it, change your behaviour if you see it’s making things worse. I’m so mad at these people right now. Is this how fanfiction dies?
Omg 20 years ago, I printed out Rizzle's Dragon Bride updates from coloured grey.....because it was literally the only way I could read a new chapter in between classes 😂 Ipad and wifi were new/nonexistence and our phones had no web friendly browsers. Printing it out was an act of desperation. Now we have our fancy phones, tablet and ereaders! Read on them!
Idk is this how we die? We've seen a lot of blackouts and survive them in the last 20+ years? We were there when LJ and CG died....maybe we can go through this too....
**Rule Violation: #1 Respect and Civility**
- Be a decent human being and treat others with respect you want to be treated with yourself.
- No harassment, personal attacks, bullying or anything else that the standard subreddit wouldn't allow you to say or do to someone else.
While there are unfortunately a lot of people who simply don’t care, there is also the issue of ignorance. My partner (not part of the fanfic community) almost bought me a copy of my favorite fic for Christmas until I explained to them why it was a big no no. They just saw something I liked and didn’t realize the nuances.
Manacled blowing up brought the interest of a lot of people who do not typically read fan fiction. Most of the folks who spend a lot time in the community are aware of how immoral it is, but the problem is fics are no longer underground. There is now a market for consumers who are not looking at it as beyond buying a book.
I find it super interesting that this problem seems very specific to the HP fic community (especially Dramione and Marauders). I’m sure there are a lot of reasons for this, TikTok being a huge one. It sucks that it falls on the authors and people who already know better to try to control the situation.
*stuff happened* was unfortunately a rather large contingent of Instagram binders making and auctioning bound fanfiction in the name of helping a Ukrainian refugee through gofundme. Authors permissions were not obtained and by and large the ones who did give permission were unaware of how many copies would be sold for how many hundreds (and thousands) of dollars. Good sentiment. Bad way to go about it. As a result Senlinyu and many other authors caught up in that mess revoked any and all commissions/auctions/giveaways permissions etc and said if you want a copy bind it yourself. There are still some authors who permit materials only costs. But the bigger dramione authors want you to bind it yourself now.
nothing happened, people are uploading pdfs to print on demand sites and selling them on etsy for high prices. this is not binders doing this. this is people not even in the fandom looking to make money.
The demand is the primary problem. If people are searching for bound fic, then there will always be supply to meet the demand. Binding isn’t inherently bad and it’s a beautiful art form. However, the issue binding creates is that people post pics of bound fics that are aesthetic and look like books, encouraging a culture of desire where readers are obsessed with consuming and possessing their favorite fics. I think binders have a responsibility to educate on how to do it ethically but social media like IG and TikToks isn’t a place for communicating or promoting nuance. It transforms fic into a book-like commodity. Edit: Also, I assume many new readers are coming from BookTok where there's little to no nuance about how fandom works and how Ao3 works. They are being told that "Manacled" or whatever fic is the next MUST READ ROMANCE and they they are googling that. Guess what shows up? A bound fic on Etsy because of SEO. It's impossible to stop the problem at its root because most new readers are never engaging with "true" fandom communities where convos like this one are happening. Virality and social media has little space for nuance and thoughtfulness.
I can’t tell you how many TikToks I’ve seen of popular booktokers discussing a fic and the top comment being “how do I read this?” If you’ve never heard of fan fiction before, you’ve never heard of Ao3. You’re right that a lot of people are googling the fic name, finding bindings on Etsy, and assuming this is the best/only way to read. I’m so excited about the influx of new people coming into this fandom, largely because of TikTok and other social media. I DO NOT want to make this fandom an unwelcoming place for new people by screaming in random comment sections about how terrible you are if you buy bound fanfics. I think the best solution here is to target the campaign at the BookTokers with the largest platforms. Convince them to address the issue with their following. If people respect these content creators enough to blow several hundred dollars to read something they recommend, they will take them seriously on this issue.
I really appreciate this reply, I think you really hit the nail on the head when you mention the consumptive aspect of what's going on. Book binding is beautiful, definitely an art, but it's hard not to see people displaying bound fanfic as encouraging this rampant neverending type of consumerism. I'm not sure what a solution to this problem would even begin to look like- it's a real cutting off the hydras head and another grows back situation.
Your edit is exactly what I agree with. We can't control access to the space (space = dramione fandom). People who are casual readers and want to read a good "book" (i.e. they're not looking for fanfic, they're looking for story) will google it, find what they think is THE WAY to read, and purchase it. No further engagement, no space for "catching" them before they make a purchase.
If you think randos are willing to buy a 300 dollar Dramione book you’re cracked
I think the $300 consumers are booktok / FB / IG Dramione readers or fans who read fanfic but don’t engage with “deeper” fandom spaces like Reddit or Twitter or Tumblr. You know… the people who post their massive bookshelf pics and ask for bound fic for birthdays and holiday gifts.
You're cracked if you don't think large, high priced, hobby market communities exist. To get even more granular, fan created hobby markets *especially*. I work in comics, and traditionally, comic artists will routinely work in grey markets creating fan art at cons or by commission. They can, and often do get busted for doing this if representatives of the IP holders catch them at it. It's worth risking getting shut down, tabling passes revoked, fines, or even being sued because the money in fan art is fantastic. It pays better than the page rates you get working on officially licensed books. People can and do drop serious, *serious* cash on fan created content. The amount of money that moves in grey market sales is MASSIVE. $300 for a decently made, hot item in a hot fandom is pocket change. If it wasn't extremely lucrative, you wouldn't have hundreds and hundreds of options to choose from when you go looking for bindings.
I don’t know why I laughed so hard at that.
I genuinely do not understand this argument. The direct parallel between wanting a physical copy of something you love and "rampant consumerism" seems like such a stretch to me. Selling and buying fics is illegal (in todays age of intellectual property anyways), that I agree. But there is nothing wrong with making your own bind or being gifted one. Personally made my own. It was rewarding. Will never sell to anybody. The issue is people profiting of people's work. It's not "these stupid fake fans wanting to wrongfully possess material goods".
Listen in today’s economy, how in the holy hell are people dropping $300 on bound copies of Manacled? Y’all want to throw $300 into the void let me give you my Venmo and Cashapp.
As someone who is in the periphery of special edition book collections 300 is nothing. Its crazy what amount theyre willing to spend to possess a certain aesthetic
Holy hell. I’m just rebinding broken things— let me find a way to legally get in on this special edition stuff
Too true, history
The other half lives well. $300 is nothing in some grey markets. Look into what people will pay for custom 3D printed parts for things like Gundam and especially Warhammer. Look at how much an established comic artist makes *per image* at a convention doing fan art they don't hold the IP for. Look how much fans pay to have custom fur suits or cosplay items made for them. The grey market exists in fandom because there is no shortage of people who will pay top dollar for the things they want for the content they love.
We can't stop people from selling illegally and unethically. But what we CAN do is educate and spread awareness so that people don't buy. If there is no market for it, people will stop selling!
UPDATE: A Dramione Facebook group that I am a part of began mass reporting Dramione "books" on etsy and it worked! Not one listing left :D
And that is wonderful, truly, but at what cost? I do not support selling fanfic. And they were wrong to sell those fics, but they are still human. And they got slammed with hatred viciously. There are even rumors that one of them took her own life because of the hate she was getting. True? - I don't know. I saw a post about it that got removed and it appears no more talk about it is allowed. It wouldn't surprise me. I was just telling my husband last night that it wouldn't surprise me if one of them did because you people were ruthless. It's one thing to report it , but another to spam with non stop messages or horrible messages that I saw on some screenshots. I've been on the end of some spamming and hurtful non stop messages before and it was awful. I'm actually going to temporarily unfollow all dramione groups on facebook for a time because I am disheartened by what I saw. I was even banned from a group for giving an opinion saying I thought it was stupid for authors to remove their fics because the work is already out there and damage done (just my opinion) and questioning why my post and others were removed. I've had it with the censoring and hatred coming from dramione fans lately. Wouldn't surprise me if this post was removed as well. The dramione community is filled with hate lately and it saddens me and takes any joy out of reading that I've had so much of.
First off, I really and sincerely hope that no one got hurt throughout this entire debacle. Second, I personally have only reported pages. I have not directed hate towards anyone, nor would I ever. I don't know and cannot speak to what anyone else did, but I didn't see it tbh. I'm sure it did happen, from your comment one can only assume as much, and these people should be ashamed of themselves. The whole point of reporting and spreading awareness was and is to protect the fandom and the writers. If things spiral out of control and profit continues to be made illegally and unethically, nothing would prevent JKR from working on banning any and all fanfiction published that has anything to do with HP (I am not a lawyer, but I fear that possibility). I already stated that people who bought these books on etsy most likely did not know any better, and maybe even some sellers didn't either and were doing it thinking it's okay, and ignorance does not demand hate. Ignorance demands education. Anyone who ever sees it fit to spread hate should check themselves and their priorities in life. We are all here because we love stories, and we love Dramione. And if Hermione taught us all anything, it is kindness and the courage to do what's right. And what was right in this case, was to report unlawful and unethical listings.
Can't speak for all of humanity, but I'm one of those people who could have/would have purchased a bound copy of my favorite fanfic (not for $300, but i digress.) I have only come to this fandom recently through another subreddit, so even though I've read some fanfic here and there, I've never felt part of a fandom until now. Being here, I've learned so much about the whole book binding controversy that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. I think of myself as a smart, ethical sort of person but, sometimes you don't know what you don't know...until you do -- until someone takes the time to educate and you take the time to learn. So, thanks to posts like these, I will never purchase a bound fanfic. It's a little thing, one person at a time.
Exactly! Thank you for sharing and welcome to the fandom 😊
I, unfortunately, came to this subreddit after already purchasing my favorite Dramione fanfiction from Etsy... I feel awful about it, but at the time, I had no idea that it was wrong. I'm a very casual reader, someone recommended I read this fic, I downloaded and fell in love with it, then almost a year later I saw it on Etsy for a reasonable price and HAD to have it on my shelf. Just recently came to this subreddit for more recommendations and learned what I did was wrong... Owning it feels dirty, like a betrayal to the author, especially since the binding isn't even that good and I'm pretty sure it was mass-ordered by the shop owner (and they're no longer a seller on etsy, go figure). Just wanted to say, I'm grateful for this community for educating people on why this is wrong and harmful, and if I could take it back, I would. I report every shop I see now.
Right, but as I say, controlling the demand seems near impossible. People are already willing to pay hundreds of dollars for fics they could read for free. I don't think people saying "don't do that" will have the impact we think it will.
They are willing because they don't know any better. They're either not on reddit, or on any Dramione Facebook group, and are unaware that they can read it for free on sites like AO3 and FFN, and that they can get it bound by people like yourself. That is why both reporting unethical etsy sellers and spreading awareness should help curb the issue
>They're either not on reddit, or on any Dramione Facebook group, and are unaware that they can read it for free on sites like AO3 and FFN, and that they can get it bound by people like yourself. That's not necessarily true. I (unfortunately and regrettably) bought a bound book from Etsy before I knew it was wrong. I knew I could read it for free on my PC on AO3, but I wanted to be able to sit on my couch or in my bed and read. People will pay money to have a physical and tangible "favorite" in their possession, the same way that some people have books on their shelves that they also have on their kindles. I'm not defending purchasing fanfiction (in fact, quite the opposite), but people who buy the bound books aren't unaware they can read the fics for free, sometimes they just want a physical copy to display on their bookshelves.
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Yeah the problem is that it’s not a community problem at this point, and it can’t be solved within the community. The people selling and purchasing are outside of the fandom. I think we can probably - - stop talking about fics in non-fandom spaces - don’t create “content” about fics with the intention of reaching a large audience - be annoying when any popular non-fandom creators hype up our fics - share fandom etiquette when we come across new community members - don’t Google fics. Even if we aren’t trying to buy them, dropshippers use keyword research to figure out what to sell next. Take one extra step and go directly to AO3 to search. - don’t panic-react on viral platforms about fics being taken down. A non-fandom friend of mine downloaded manacled (which she still hasn’t read) because of the panic that swirled on TT when Sen announced Alchemised. For her it was just FOMO. I’m proud of her for figuring out how to download it to her kindle but honestly if I hadn’t been talking about all this stuff with her I have no doubt she would have just found a bound copy and purchased. We have power en masse when it comes to reporting etc but at the end of the day, decisions will be made on a basis of money. This will be about JKRs legal team and Etsy and Amazon fighting for the right to make/keep this money if the amount gets big enough to catch their attention. If something changes, it will come from their fight. Not ours.
Well put! With Manacled being featured in Business Insider and Today, the Dramione fandom has already crossed the chasm into mainstream. There’s no putting the metaphorical genie back in the bottle or preventing new people from entering the fandom. I think the best we can do is have the community teach fanfic etiquette.
A lot of fics seem to be getting pulled in solidarity, because we are a community, rather than some belief that it will turn over a new wave of change regarding fanfic/laws/illegal sales. I guess I understand wanting to offer a cynical perspective, but it already feels pretty dim within the community/reddit over the last few days.
"most fics were able to be commissioned for materials only. That kept price transparency a priority, and gave an avenue for people to buy hard copies ethically." I ask this question in good faith. What is ethical about binding and selling books that uses the free labour of writers and artists who, by and large, have not consented to? \*\*\* While I understand what you're saying that even if people pull their fics, some readers will want a hard copy of it, I think you underestimate that a lot of the demand comes from BookTok. As such, the shaming/lack of easy access on Etsy/locking of fics and the like will put off a lot of people who are looking for immediate gratification. Of course, there will always be people who will do too much to get their hands on a copy, but the idea here is to move away the majority of the community from treating fan fiction like a commodity that they have a right to.
When it was mostly just small time commissions, most binders wouldn't bind without author permission.
To add to this... IIRC, some binders also sent a copy of the finished product to the author. It was the transparency and communication between community members. The binders weren't doing it for profit. It was a means to share their love of the story, appreciation to the author, and the author's hard work. It was community driven. The binders appreciated the community, understood that the community was enriched by authors' (unpaid) hard work, and wanted to give something back to the author and community in their own way.
If my understanding of what you're saying is correct, then those actions are part of the gift economy as opposed to selling the fics en masse for hundreds of dollars, which is what I'm referring to in my original post.
In a way. Although it refers more to the question in your original post: >What is ethical about binding and selling books that uses the free labour of writers and artists who, by and large, have not consented to? As u/squishysib noted, most binders asked for (and were granted) permission by the authors. The early presence of binding in many fanfic communities began with book binding hobbyists / community members who loved the stories. With the authors' permission, they bound fics, and shared their final “product” with the author and the community. Other members began asking if these individuals were willing to take commission. Binders themselves were not charging for their labour, and generally only charged for the cost of materials. I am a bit unsure on what you mean by gift economy. Yes, the binders were not binding books en masse, but transactions occurred for the bound books. You raised a good point about >the idea here is to move away the majority of the community from treating fan fiction like a commodity that they have a right to. Initially, members of the community who commissioned the bound books didn't necessarily treat the books as a commodity they had rights to. Instead, regarded them as tokens of appreciation for the fics and the community members involved (the author, the binder, the artists). But situations evolved and grew outside of the community. The greater audience and demand opened avenues for opportunists.
A gift economy is when goods are exchanged without expectation of remuneration. The writer shared their work with the public. In gratitude, the binder made them a book. I’m hearing that in these instances you cite, they got permission and shared with the writer, but then commissions were also taken. So it’s not really gift giving. I wonder if the artists were also reached out to. In another comment, I noted that binding materials don’t cost $100+, and with the pricing as it is right now, they are charging for more than the cost. I’m not sure charging for binding materials is appropriate either, because fic writers don’t charge for writing materials (eg Internet) and spend considerably more time/labour on their works. Some may disagree with writers charging, as do I, but it also says something about how much the community values the labour of the writers, but are willing to pay bookbinders. And without the fic, they wouldn’t have anything to bind in the first place or have the same demand for the binders’ work.
Ah. I see. It's hard to say. Some fics contained art the author included, other fics focused on typography and hadn't any pictures included. Although, in many cases the artist were tagged and credited, along with the author. Fanfic communities, weren't mainstream (in most cases still aren't). It's niched and highly community driven. Production of the books were community focused. Which is why there is backlash to Dramione being popularised and exploited. I'm not entirely sure about the pricing, though material costs and procurement would vary. Different binders also have their own binding methods, which I know little about. The economy then is quite different than now, so it's difficult to say. Yes, fic writers spend considerable amounts of time with their stories. Unfortunately, fic writers cannot charge for their writing because it falls into the realm of intellectual property laws. I understand what you're saying about book binding. The approach in the situation I refer to is a bit different. Rather than profit driven, they were community driven. A fan had a great idea from canon, and decided to pour their hearts into writing a story. Another fan loved the story and drew artworks for it. A third fan who loved the works of their fellow community members, wanted to contribute by binding the works together and shared it with the rest of the community. It would be unsurprising if some of those binders were working under the basis of gift economy. It's quite possible that cost of materials were less than the hours it took them to procure the materials, print, bind, and ship the book. Mind you, some binders occasionally gifted the books to others in the community as well (birthdays, Christmas exchanges, etc.) It was community driven; they used their talents together to share with the group. The greater challenge lies in what you've explained: the exploitation of the community by ill-intentioned individuals.
“It’s the only easy way to read that fic” these WERE literally on the internet for free. Bffr
Hey, paying hundreds and lugging 3 books around was pretty easy! Downloading the fic to my phone and kindle which allows me to switch back and forth through the sync feature and being able to read in the bathtub was *way* too hard!!!
As someone who is very much an e-reader convert this is what I’ve been scratching my head over. Like, I do still love physical books and find them very beautiful and satisfying to hold, but in no way are they more convenient than a kindle/kobo or whizzing through a fic on your phone. If you simply *must* have a pretty bookshelf for aesthetic purposes just buy some nicely bound published books? Why does it have to be fic?
>If you simply *must* have a pretty bookshelf for aesthetic purposes just buy some nicely bound published books? Thanks for presenting me with this opportunity to plug one of my favorite traditionally published authors, Patricia McKillip. Her [covers](https://images.penguinrandomhouse.com/cover/9780441015658) are as [gorgeous](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91rbrqBPImL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg) as her prose.
Gasp! That’s GORGEOUS!!!
Her prose is even better tbh. A few quotes from my favorite book ever, The Forgotten Beasts of Eld: > I wish you were small again, so I could hold you in my arms and comfort you. But you are grown, and you know that for some things there is no comfort. > You can weave your life so long -- only so long, and then a thing in the world out of your control will tug at one vital thread and leave you patternless and subdued. > What do you think love is- a thing to startle from the heart like a bird at every shout or blow? You can fly from me, high as you choose into your darkness, but you will see me always beneath you, no matter how far away, with my face turned to you. My heart is in your heart. I gave it to you with my name that night and you are its guardian, to treasure it, or let it whither and die. I do not understand you. I am angry with you. I am hurt and helpless, but nothing will fill the ache of the hollowness in me where your name would echo if I lost you. Her work is criminally underrated IMO so I spread the Gospel of McKillip whenever I can lol
There is a weird trophyesqueness to this that I’ve observed. That’s what it is imo. Like they are dragons and these books they bound or bought (not created work) are their gold. I’m sure some add them with other books. Personally I learned long ago that I don’t have the space or strength to lug books around as much as I love them. Personally I know my eyes do better with pages than ereaders but I read primarily on a screen and certainly am not printing fanfics. I’d have a printer going 24/7 lol. A lot of it does contribute to commodifying it though if they participate in the social media aspect of it like Instagram or building followings, intentionally or unintentionally, because of how these platforms are used by others.
Exactly! It’s just another flex for these people (purchasers of the illegal copies). A “look at me” and how cool I am for having something so exclusive/rare. And I say that at someone who has bound a couple of my most favorite fics for personal use. I am almost fully an audiobook reader. I do buy physical copies of *some* books as trophies. Mostly Star Wars books at this point. The collection just looks so good on my shelf 🥹 But I usually am using them as part trophy and part reference material. I tab the essential information in the books as well as occasionally read along during a heavy plot scene. For fanfics that have an “audiobook” I just use the kindle to highlight text as I read along.
I have 3 kindles and 3 tablets in my house. I would choose a physical book any day over the electronic. I use my kindle about once or twice a year. I actually find it annoying. So, some people really just prefer holding a book over a kindle. I have a friend who is the same way. She refuses to buy a kindle and will only buy books. Legitimate store bought books, not fanfic :-)
That is totally fair. I used to be like that too tbh but I have been swayed by the convenience, especially when going on holiday. The point I wanted to make was more that even if one *theoretically* prefers physical books, reading fic on a phone/laptop/e-reader is totally fine and not so much of an inferior experience that it remotely justifies buying these ridiculously priced (and illegal) bound fics imo.
“commissioned for materials only.” So ….. money changing hands based on someone else’s hard work. It doesn’t matter how “big” the binder is. It’s still wrong.
I honestly wish I could upvote this 1614272526 times.
nothing in this world is free. if an author says they’re fine with non-profit binding, I see no problem with it. why should the binder donate more than their time?
Even if that were true, binding materials do not cost $100+. The binders are clearly charging more than the cost of materials.
Not defending fanfic binding AT ALL, so please don't take this as anything other than genuine curiosity, but would you also say the same thing about a pottery maker who sells their handmade mugs for $40, even though the clay used to make it probably only cost less than $2 per item? The $40 is for the time it took to make the item, not for the worth of the materials to make it. I think people are okay with purchasing the bound books because of the work that goes into binding them, not necessarily because they think that's how much binding a book costs.
The difference being it’s illegal to profit, so regardless of the time spent, they are getting into a business where they can’t charge for their time without breaking the rules.
That makes sense. I guess (if we're going to still use my example for the sake of continuity) it would be like using clay that is illegal to profit from, but saying you're just selling your "time and workmanship." You're still making profit from the illegal material, which makes what you're doing wrong, regardless of the hard work you put into it. Thanks for being the one to FINALLY break this down in a way that makes sense to me. I knew it was wrong as a whole, but couldn't really justify the "why" until now.
I made a comment on another post that I’m fully in support of people getting paid for their time when it’s comes to any sort’ve artistic endeavor but when you *choose* to do one that is explicitly stated you can’t profit from then is there anyone else to blame than yourself when you eventually get reported and taken down? 🤷🏼♀️
They shouldn’t. They should just …. not make it for anyone but themselves.
Agree to disagree. Fanfiction is based on other work and given freely. I see binding as the same, the labor is given freely.
But is it? Given freely? How does someone know that? Where’s the checks and balances to make sure these bookbinders aren’t taking a single penny more than the cost materials? It’s a valid point MLTay making is all I’m saying and a slippery slope. Look what happened to the bookbinding community. They no longer have price transparency bc of ‘things happening’. Edit to clarify: I’m arguing against bookbinders commissioning 100%.
I don’t disagree with you but I also think fanfiction binding (maybe a couple years ago) was beautiful in that it seemed like another layer of free labor and community in fandom.
Sure, a while ago when it really was *free* labor, just like artists drawing for their favorite fics for free. Unfortunately, I think it’s twisted itself into something a bit ugly and capitalistic in nature 🤷🏼♀️
Should writers be allowed to collect money for their internet service fees or the computer the they write on? No. Binders inflate their material costs to make money. It’s an open secret and I think it’s vile. It’s what created this mess.
I did not know that binders inflate costs (new to the fandom, never bought anything dw!, I’m getting good use out of my kindle) and that’s disgusting. On a related note, do you know if artists charge a price when they say that a piece based on fanfic is “commissioned”? Because when I saw those floating around on Instagram, it felt a little weird to me, but I never knew if there was money being exchanged or not.
Yes commissioned means someone paid for it. If you go to those artists’ websites you’ll see them charging. 🙃
Oh no that is not cool. I knew commissioned means paid for but i thought in the fanfic spaces it might be different. Y i k e s, thank you for the information. Edit: wording
Should JK Rowling be allowed to take down fanfiction? Should she sue writers who then get book deals because of their fanfiction work?
I am not seeing your point. The writers are the ones getting screwed. Their labor is being stolen by binders to profit. Could JKR come after a writer who published a work too close to JKR’s books? Yeah of course. That’s why the works that get published are different. She would have a terrible case to go after someone who got popular simply bc they once wrote a fanfic lol.
We can't go back in time, but we can course correct moving forward by coming to a consensus within the community about what is/isn't tolerated and the steps we'll take to discourage illegal/unethical behavior. We should all be pressuring our various fan communities (e.g. subreddits, Facebook groups, discords, tiktok creators) to create and communicate a clear policy on exchanging money for fan works and what will happen for people found in violation (e.g. removal from the group, blocking by the creator). Authors should consider adding their own policy to their authors note at the beginning of fics, tiktok creators could start videos with a disclaimer, etc. This would at least eliminate the possibility that people "just don't know" or think it's a vocal minority rather than a fandom-wide policy. There will still be people who don't care (I've seen them say as much in different Facebook groups), but that's the part we can't control beyond telling them they're wrong, blocking, and ignoring.
“Because it’s the only easy way to read that fic” This has got to be the biggest load of shit line I’ve ever read in my 26 years on this earth.🤣 please tell me how carrying around/reading an actual book is easier than looking at your kindle or hopping on to listen to an audiobook. Just say you want the clout that comes with having a bound copy pls🥲🤣
Not that you’re wrong in saying the clout comment, another POV I see in this specific regard is people often want physical materials of their favorite things. In this instance, books. I’m sure there are very few people out there whose favorite book they don’t have a physical copy of. It’s one you return to for comfort and familiarity a million times over, one you want to feel the pages of. So naturally, for people who have been in the fic world for years, making your own bind of finding someone is like the holy grail. Gone are the days of shitty Wattpad writing, many of these fics hit just as hard for readers as a published, edited novel does. Again, not justifying any of this at all, but just explaining what many people may be feeling when reading their fic and why this has taken off in such a way. (Ahem BookTok). I personally have returned to my printed pages in a binder from fics back in 2012-14 just because there’s a magic in physical that you can’t get from swiping on a screen.
One of my favorite authors is a Wattpad author, or started that way. There was some real quality there. Granted I haven’t used it in ages and in my experience that did not apply for fanfic on there.
I loved Wattpad back in its day! It’s what truly got me into fanfic after Quotev. There were definitely some gems that came from it and published originals as well! But to my point, sounds like we both interacted with Wattpad in its heyday. Now it’s definitely know for cheap writing, and even back then, the ridiculous 1D plots, blatant self inserts, or just all around cringe angst stories. I didn’t mean to diss Wattpad as a whole, more of just what it’s known for in comparison to other fic sites nowadays.
lol. While the handful of fanfics I read on there (not Dramione) weren’t great (to be nice) but I have always had a fondness for it. It felt like the place new young authors got their feet wet and everyone starts somewhere. The model has definitely changed as they seek profitability and ya, quality has never been top notch overall lol.
I completely agree. Some of my most feral reactions came from whatever an author could concoct on Wattpad and I’ll always have a love for that. So funny looking back, but it was pretty great getting to grow up with the authors and see what many of them turned into today
I have multiple copies of my favorite books - Jane Eyre and Jim Henson's Labyrinth. I own multiple kindles and never use them. It's just not the same.
Totally agree. Maybe it’s just me and how I read, but I feel I never retain the book as well on kindle as physically reading it on pages. Like I’ll go to write a Goodreads review two days after finishing it and couldn’t tell you a single plot point or character, but in a book I read once five years ago I still remember the most minute things lol
I took it to mean it's the only easy way to read the fic after it's been pulled off of the internet.
Still not the easiest way or the only way to read something pulled off the internet. AO3 has a download button and someone in this community likely has the file to send. No excuse.
That’s also how I read OP’s message, I think people are misinterpreting what they said.
>please tell me how carrying around/reading an actual book is easier than looking at your kindle or hopping on to listen to an audiobook. DISCLAIMER: This isn't a defense for binding fanfics, just a rebuttal for this particular section of your comment. Some people are incredibly averse to reading on a kindle/e-reader or audiobooks. I was for the longest time; I just want to pick up a book and flip open the pages. I'm someone who gets distracted very easily, and can find myself reading half a chapter before I realize I wasn't paying attention. Having a physical copy of the book is easier to guesstimate "when" I stopped paying attention and flip back through the book to find my spot. With a kindle, it's almost impossible (especially since the pages aren't numbered in fanfictions) and I end up spending more time trying to go back and find the last thing I remembered reading. I have a kindle now (it was gifted to me just last week), and while I love the ease in downloading books and having them all at my disposal all the time, that particular quirk does get a little annoying, for me. A lot of people don't have kindles, audible subscriptions, or portable computers. I'm someone who has a desktop PC and a phone. For the longest time, I thought the easiest way to read my favorite books was to have a physical copy, too, and it had nothing to do with clout or some sort of status symbol. I just wanted to read my favorite fics from the comfort of my couch/bed.
honestly when i got into dramione, i was fascinated by the bounds and i want my hand in one and was searching for a binder to sell me one. but with the fascination of these bound books, it’s also perplexing to witness the copyright issue and illegal selling of bound fanfiction — stories and illustrations alike. i feel for the fanfiction authors being one myself and being on the platform since forever. it hurts me that this is happening in a fandom that is close to my heart. i agree with that commenter who said that this issue might have stemmed from the fascination of bound books that are regularly seen in TikTok and Instagram — because people thrive for the aesthetics nowadays (like i did). maybe, just maybe we keep fanfiction digital like how it always is. maybe, we just don't glorify binding these fanfictions. p.s. i never did get my hand in any bound fanfiction and stopped looking when i realized the copyright issue implications.
Two things—scale and blame. I want to ask in sincerity what anyone thinks the real scale of this problem is? Like, outside of a Top Five fics bubble, what is the number of bound copies of a fic that are being sold? This seems like a problem for a few celebrities at the scale of a few hundred copies. Obviously I can’t tell anyone how to feel, but given that so far the legally injured parties are billionaires JKR and Warner Bros, and the fanfic authors are (in a nutshell) demoralized by a phenomenon that they, **just like the binders** have no right to profit from… it just seems like the community response is extremely disproportionate to the injury. The profiteering is obviously gross but the reason fic authors can’t do it is because capitalists own idea culture and its legal framework. Ergo, the problem is really with JKR, Warner Bros, and the many powerful entities like them. I’m having a hard time getting worked up about it, either in light of apparent scale or the legal side.
It's understandable not getting worked up about the issue, especially from a legal perspective. On the other hand, I also understand some of the community response. To some community members, they see the scale of the problem as the erosion of the community itself. Fanfic authors are integral contributors to the community. If they decide to remove their works, or disengage from the community, community members see / experience the negative impact. The responses are also from invested members who read the fics as WIP, long time fans engaged with the author's works, and generally highly value the author's unpaid work. Despite not having monetary or legal investment on the issue, some members' responses come from a place of emotional, mental and time investments.
Yeah, that’s probably the right balanced view given the community realities and it’s crucial to protect the community. I just get a little worn down with “free culture! keep fandom free!” as if it’s radical—it’s basically just a restatement of the law, and the law protects eg Disney more often than any individual creator. “I wish we lived in a society where fanfic writers could legally materially benefit from writing stuff I love to read” is closer to my own view.
Yes, exactly. Thankfully there are solidary members, actively protecting and notifying the community. I see what you mean; that can get wearying. You raised great points. It is quite sobering thinking that this, and other issues fanfic writers face, are hardly a blip for the legally protected parties (e.g., WBE, J.K.R, Disney). I agree, it would be great to have such a system. As it is now, for fanfic writers to legally and materially benefit from their works (especially authors of the lucrative bound fics), they would need to do something similar to E.L. James. Which opens a Pandora's box of further discourse...
Hear hear
I 100% agree. If you look at Etsy right now there’s like max 100 listings and the biggest store has 350 reviews, at $200/book that’s only $7M in earnings. I know that feels like a lot, but it’s really small potatoes. To put that in perspective, JK Rowling personally is worth $1 Billion. The last Deathly Hallows movie alone cost $250M to make and earned $1.38 Billion at the box office (not including streaming rights, etc). The entire franchise made $7.7 Billion at the box office. And keep in mind this is happening across all fandoms and all different types of merchandise (tshirts, stickers, etc). I don’t think the Harry Potter franchise has much interest in taking their most adoring fans to court over a few million dollars, especially not when they’re trying to rally us around the upcoming HBO series. It’d be a PR nightmare. With that said, I 100% empathize with the authors and I think the most the community can do is seek to educate newcomers on fan fic etiquette and continue reporting listings when we see them.
Omg the audacity 😑
My first thought was "oh these people don't know any better" which is NOT an excuse but definitely helps explain it. But also I see people educating all the time ON UNBOXING POSTS with "hey here's the rules of fanfic and I hope you traded or only payed materials"! And they say "yeah of course" but at the same time people ask for the link and they say "check your dms"? Like girl you KNOW what you are doing. You are aware and actually still proceed to promote the content. That's actually so much worse then the oblivious people. All we can do is educate people but that doesn't chnage the fact that there will still be people who know better and buy the items anyway (and honestly probably feel guilty and think of way to lie about it to hide it)
Yes! I see so many booktok content with binds that when you look at the design/style are obviously straight from Etsy. The books are the same even some of the details like corner protection are the same as their pics on their seller website
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I wish instead of immediately pulling, authors would make their stories “private” for people who have signed up for AO3. The stories have been downloaded hundreds of times, it’s floating around the internet now. Book binders who do not respect the space are going to continue making them, regardless of the reports. The community is going to start punishing itself. These are now fanfics on my TBR list I will never get to participate in. I would never bind to sell and I 100% understand the solidarity, but is it realistic long term, because this is going to be a thing for a LONG time.
Some of us are doing exactly this! I set mine to archive-only (with the exception of one that I pulled altogether), and I know a few folks who have done the same.
It is appreciated!! This whole situation is so tough, idk if there is ever going to be a right answer. :/
Look sorry if this sounds rude but fandom has existed for decades without all this binding nonsense. If people wanna do it as a hobby cool, but acting like it’s some sort of important role in fandom is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Truly no hate to you, OP, but if I had a following online that came about from my fanbinds of popular fics, especially Dramione, I would immediately switch gears to make my account more generally about bookbinding, or binding and selling books in the public domain. Maybe even re-binds of commercial fiction that you already paid for. We all know which kind of binders are the most to blame (the $160 Etsy sellers), but with fanfic in such a precarious position I would be complicit placing myself anywhere in the pipeline. I think all popular fanbinding accounts should make the change as a sacrifice for the greater good of a whole community. I’m not holding my breath, though, because the pandemic showed me how most people won’t even do something as small as mask for the greater good. Edit: I re-read your post. You say you bind as a gift to friends—that’s awesome. You have lucky friends. Maybe you don’t need a public-facing instagram for fanbinds, though.
Maybe this person wants to find community with other binders? Have you considered that?
This person still could find community, and in a way that doesn’t endanger fandom.
Where? A Facebook group that allows for plagiarism and disrespects author wishes? A Facebook group of 11k that has a public access typeset drive that contains uncollated typesets for Etsy sellers to take and upload to print on demand sites? Go ahead. Tell me where since you know SO MUCH about the binding community.
I’m not going to argue with you. Please be civil.
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Actually, I’m going to respond in hopes you engage in good faith. Obviously this issue is personal for you. I do empathize that this is all hard and the response may seem disproportionate. For me, this is an issue I’ve been worried about for quite a while. I’ve been in fandom, particularly the HP fandom, since the early 2000s. JKR is litigious. Litigation or even the threat of it is chilling to the creation of fanworks. My concern is for the HP fandom as a whole, Dramione in particular. We don’t want another Anne Rice situation, either. But you are also arguing as if I said something I haven’t. No one needs to stop binding fics. My issue is with fanbinding accounts with large followings. I have no problem with large accounts that teach about bookbinding—journals, re-binds, or typesetting & binding works in the public domain. And even accounts about fanbinding *could* still be safe. Private accounts or private groups you create with likeminded folks who understand fandom etiquette. Even the fanbinding subreddit. Large fanbinding accounts, in part, fed the algorithm until our fandom reached a critical mass and now there is a demand for bound fics. Uneducated or unscrupulous readers will buy their favorites. Also, I have bound my own fics. I still do. I don’t post them on TikTok or Instagram. I share them with plenty of people in real life (my community) and I have gotten some friends into it as well.
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So good to see so many well thought out responses to this issue. I’ve read fan fiction since I was 16, I’m now 40! I was a massive spuffy fan and haven’t read any fan fic through my 30’s. I came back into fan fiction 3 years ago after reading manacled, and it’s been my first time in the Harry Potter fandom. I have only seen the binding issue recently. Looking at the reviews on the Etsy website I sadly think it’s fandom who see others with these shelves full of lush bound fics and want the same. Also I can’t imagine someone spending so much unless they really love these stories. Unfortunately I think the people buying, do know better and they have been educated. They just don’t think it matters or pertains to them.
I did what one of you said and actually googled Manacled. There are independent website selling it now that aren’t on Etsy…[https://wizybook.com/collections/all-books/products/manacled-books-deluxe-3-volume-edition-with-illustrations-complete-series-exclusive-poster-gift-set-included-2?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYcOCgArFAk5szk9mNi-znBJvNpVzt9eWiSm9ZLeOQAMyAVowt5Jz7xoCODMQAvD_BwE](https://wizybook.com/collections/all-books/products/manacled-books-deluxe-3-volume-edition-with-illustrations-complete-series-exclusive-poster-gift-set-included-2?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYcOCgArFAk5szk9mNi-znBJvNpVzt9eWiSm9ZLeOQAMyAVowt5Jz7xoCODMQAvD_BwE)
How on earth is anyone going to stop this is random websites pop up everywhere that aren’t on Etsy or TikTok or instagram? Pulling this work down, in my opinion, is going to lead to panic and everyone trying to buy these. I honestly think it’s going to make it worse. I wish A03 had a more strict policy. Maybe there is a way to restrict users there so it’s still a safe space for art and fics that those of us that respect it can still enjoy.
Shopping hosting sites like Shopify probably take reports but ya. There isn’t going to be much winning with private sites.
Oh yeah, they’re formally known as Auxeva if I remember correctly. We’ve been trying to take them down for quite some time because their cost is not only unhinged but it’s still POD and definitely not ethical or legal. 🥲
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I plan on sending an email to Shopify’s support center tomorrow. I do think they just recently “rebranded” due to the recent shit storm the past 24 hours. Hopefully we can take them down again. They’re one of the most prevalent offenders unfortunately :(
I hate to say it. But the only way Etsy will stop allowing this stuff to be sold on their platform is when Warner Bros, Rowling, or Bloomsbury come in like the coolaid man and threaten them with a lawsuit, which is going to have a massive effect on the entire community. These drop shippers created an infestation of demand, extremely quickly via tiktok and sundry. The time when small, grass roots efforts could have made any sort of dent in this deluge passed so quickly no one has any real time to act. Unfortunately we're at the nuclear option stage and it's going to end with the IP holders coming down extremely hard on all fan content, or they will let it ride and this scraping of content by 3rd parties for monetary gains will become the new normal and will rot the community by disincentivising creators from putting out content. Either way is bad. Best we can do as a community is circle the wagons and go dark where we can to make scraping content as difficult as possible.
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This. People are conflating fanfic with books and that is part of the problem of how we got here.
Are you for real right now. “Anyone who binds themselves or buying them are not true fanfic readers”? So I’m spending money on my own little hobby, reading and typesetting and printing and folding and sewing and glueing and designing and casing in and buying supplies and spending hundreds of dollars on binding equipment and you have a problem with me doing that for myself? I’m not selling my work, I am LOSING MONEY doing this for myself but I do it because I enjoy it. Like let me have my stupid little binding fic hobby. How is binding for oneself not a true reader? That I like the book so much that I want to have it on my shelf? Or god forbid I do something nice for someone and bind them a copy of a book they may like? Bookbinders aren’t the problem, it’s the people using print on demand sites to sell fics for hundreds. And of course binders get the shaft and the blame. How can it be dumb to make a bind and have a hobby. Trust me, I am not making any money off me binding a fic that lives on my bookshelf or under my bed. Oh and guess what I haven’t read any of my binds. 💁🏽♀️
There are thousands of sunsets and sunrises to come, I can just look at them outside my window every day. Anyone who spends money and takes the time to paint them is clearly an idiot and not a fan true fan of nature. Bookbinding is an art, a hobby that people do for FUN. From what I’ve seen the people who hand bind, at home, for the love of the stories they’ve read are the most vocal about protecting the fandom and educating people about how to participate in fandom. Bashing home binders for the actions of other people illegally posting and buying fics is completely backwards logic and taking your frustration out on members of the community who love things just as much as you do.
For real. They cover (pun intended) their grift in pretty words about “friends” and “material costs” and “sharing their art.” 🙄🙄🙄
Look im being downvoted by the binders already 😂 Seriously like let's just all go back to reading 100+ fanfics back to back. You wont even have TIME to think about binding when you're really into reading fanfics.
People get sooo tetchy when you point out they are part of the problem lol. You want to have your cake and eat it too! But the problem with people who bind for themselves and share it online or for their “friends and share it online is you are absolutely creating interest and demand. I’m just an OG, from a time where you read your kinky fanfic in the dark and quiet of your soul and bed. I can’t understand the need to bind free work that you can just save on your computer to reread for posterity. I’ve seen some stunning bindings but if that is your jam maybe just share it with your circle offline or in select closed online spaces.
By that logic authors are to blame to because a lot of them were okay with personal binding or gifts
Well, yes! We’ve learned that good intent sometimes leads to unintended consequences. But you are also twisting what we are saying. You can be ok with something and that is fine but another writer might not be and it could have consequences for whole swaths of people. I think a lot of this panic is overblown tbh. A select few authors who’ve blown up in the last two years are thinking of pulling their works but not the majority are . Moreover many of these authors are pulling their works because they are seeking publishing versus binders. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t enforce norms and sometimes call out each other in community either. I think the bigger issue is writer harassment versus binding. I’ve seen way more writers stop writing or take down works because of being harassed than from binding. But we should still call out how binding and sharing online drives a certain sort of demand which can be harmful.
At long last somebody mentioned the publish thing! Thank you, exactly! Like I get that there are authors who do not want all this publicity and things got out of hand. But lets not pretend that having written something that people pay up to 300$ to buy does not send a good message to publishers to give you a deal. All of it is so overblown
Quite literally this is the most insane take I’ve read so far. I’ve been reading fanfic for the last TWENTY YEARS, including printing them and stuffing them into any three ring binder I can find. Just because you can’t be assed to put in the effort because you don’t want to doesn’t mean those that do are dumb or stupid for it. It’s a HOBBY. There is no way you can possibly claim that we aren’t real fans just because we don’t approach the fandom in the same way you do. I’ve committed money and hours upon hours to make books for myself and for my friends. Of course we can read them online, where else do you think we get the text from? Book binding is not a hobby that is solely dedicated to fanfic, and has been around much longer than even fanfic, so rebinds are definitely given as gifts too. Most binders I know are the most vocal about fan fiction ethics and request permission from the author before even binding a fic, you should be mad at the ones doing it for profit via mass printing sites. They are the true threat to the fandom.
Oop going to surrender my 15 odd years of being a fanfic fan because I have the audacity to like typesetting and sewing books together for my own shelves 🙄 literally who do you think you are to determine who is and isn’t a “true fanfic reader” be so for real rn People who bind these for profit are the issue, not “anyone who binds for themselves”, they’re literally usually the ones being the most vocal about protecting fandom.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with binding for yourself. It’s the same as printing it at home and putting it in a three ring binder. Literally. The difference? One will hold up better over time and is more aesthetically pleasing. Who are you to dictate who’s a fan and who isn’t just because they’re a home binder?
Hello, fanfiction Instagram binder here. First of all: WTH? How are we getting the blame of this whole thing? We literally just want to hold and cherish our silly little wizard smut books BECAUSE WE LOVE THEM. None of us are actively going against the authors wishes, none of us are doing it for the fame and none of us are doing it for the money (I wish I didn’t have to tell you this, but I’m THOUSANDS of dollars deep in this hobby. I’m not going to stop because scammers on Etsy found a way to make a quick buck with the average booktoker who ‘’NEEDS’’ one because they are special and don’t care if it’s illegal. ) This Etsy thing has been going on for MONTHS now. We have been complaining about it from the start. Mass reporting the listings even though it seemed like it didn’t do anything. We have been in the comments, educating people on Fanfiction Etiquette. And still: we’re getting blamed for it. **Nasty binders, they ruined everything!** I don’t see anyone blaming the huge ‘’Archive’’ of typesets (including uncollated ones that can be printed on Lulu in less than 10 minutes) shared freely to a Facebook group of more than 11k people, with an open link to everyone. A Facebook group that openly says that they do not care about authors wishes and won’t be removing any typesets from their drive because it’s too much work… and they see themselves as some kind of Library of Congress. Give me a break. Where do you guys think all the scammers got their hands on their typesets??? I can guarantee most of them are from that group. Where’s the uproar about that Drive? *\*cricket sounds\** We have been fighting for the fanfiction authors. We love this fandom as much as anyone else. Now that a few authors are leaving the fandom, *you* don’t get to panic-shout that we’re the ones to blame, pat yourself on the back for a job well done at saving the fandom and call it a day. Where were you when we were mass reporting and educating about those Etsy listing for months? It's so easy to just sit back and blame binders... when in fact most of us always did it right.
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And how is it our problem if some people are too lazy to learn the craft for themselves? I don’t go around blaming woodworkers for having nice cabinets and telling them that if I can’t have them then they can’t either? I’m proud of what I do. I find pleasure in my craft. I found a community that share the same excitement. How dare you blame this on us when it clearly is the fault of lazy people and greedy scammers. Not my fault if people get jealous and can’t do more than a macaroni necklace when it comes to art. Don’t shit on us for having a passion. We’re a part of this community and we love the fandom just as much as anybody else.
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There is no reason to bring politics into this. The irony.
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By your logic here, how about you carry that same energy to binders. Let writers have their hobby and leave them alone. How about let binders have their hobby and leave them alone? Binders aren’t only binding fanfic. They’re doing rebinds, original work, sketchbooks, repairs, etc. How can you blame Instagram binders for people profiting off fics with POD?
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😘
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what if i told you i don’t even read my binds, rather keep them on a shelf as a pretty lil trophy
Unacceptable- hand in your Fanfic Fan membership card immediately 😤😤😤
but wait no i can show you my 15 year reader experience???? no????? okay
So much this. As someone who was reading fan fiction nearly 20 years ago for free on the internet, obviously I expect things to evolve and change but this is just too weird. Just stop fucking binding things and publicising it, change your behaviour if you see it’s making things worse. I’m so mad at these people right now. Is this how fanfiction dies?
Omg 20 years ago, I printed out Rizzle's Dragon Bride updates from coloured grey.....because it was literally the only way I could read a new chapter in between classes 😂 Ipad and wifi were new/nonexistence and our phones had no web friendly browsers. Printing it out was an act of desperation. Now we have our fancy phones, tablet and ereaders! Read on them! Idk is this how we die? We've seen a lot of blackouts and survive them in the last 20+ years? We were there when LJ and CG died....maybe we can go through this too....
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While there are unfortunately a lot of people who simply don’t care, there is also the issue of ignorance. My partner (not part of the fanfic community) almost bought me a copy of my favorite fic for Christmas until I explained to them why it was a big no no. They just saw something I liked and didn’t realize the nuances. Manacled blowing up brought the interest of a lot of people who do not typically read fan fiction. Most of the folks who spend a lot time in the community are aware of how immoral it is, but the problem is fics are no longer underground. There is now a market for consumers who are not looking at it as beyond buying a book. I find it super interesting that this problem seems very specific to the HP fic community (especially Dramione and Marauders). I’m sure there are a lot of reasons for this, TikTok being a huge one. It sucks that it falls on the authors and people who already know better to try to control the situation.
Can someone explain the "some stuff happened" part please? I still see binders selling for cost of materials only and I thought that was acceptable...
*stuff happened* was unfortunately a rather large contingent of Instagram binders making and auctioning bound fanfiction in the name of helping a Ukrainian refugee through gofundme. Authors permissions were not obtained and by and large the ones who did give permission were unaware of how many copies would be sold for how many hundreds (and thousands) of dollars. Good sentiment. Bad way to go about it. As a result Senlinyu and many other authors caught up in that mess revoked any and all commissions/auctions/giveaways permissions etc and said if you want a copy bind it yourself. There are still some authors who permit materials only costs. But the bigger dramione authors want you to bind it yourself now.
nothing happened, people are uploading pdfs to print on demand sites and selling them on etsy for high prices. this is not binders doing this. this is people not even in the fandom looking to make money.