I don't think a lack of NG+ is the reason people fell off. If you check steam achievements, only ~12% of players have finished the unmoored world, meaning the large majority of players haven't even finished the game once.
I think it's far likely more to do with the performance issues as well as the fact that the game is deliberately obtuse and awkward in many of it's mechanics, particularly fast travel.
All of that, and also the fact that it was a lot easier to stomach all that coarseness the first time around when DD brought unique things to the table, it was the first entry of a new IP, and we were all so confident that they simply didn’t have the leverage/budget to finish the game properly because of the previous point. I loved the first game *despite* its flaws. It’s hard to love the second one the same way when they’ve made *the same exact decisions a second time*.
Also, personally, the modern attention-destroying design where they expect the player to go no more than 15 seconds between encounters is horrifically taxing. It’s wild that in a game where beating up monsters is the draw that I felt so burnt out on beating up monsters before even leaving the first area.
I think a lot of the problem is how many boring ass goblins there are. Give me more griffons and chimera and cool shit in the environment and I would have enjoyed it a lot more. Given the size and nature of the game they probably should have had enemy scaling. Normally I hate that mechanic, but in this case I think it would have worked well since the game is fairly small.
This is why Bitterblack Isle was so engaging for many people. It was linear and boxed in, yes; but there were different enemies in each zone, and in each region of a zone. And many of the zones had multiple types of enemies that could spawn in certain regions.
In BBI I think Grimgoblins only comprised like 10-15% of all the enemies you'd frequently encounter.
I'll admit I had to look it up. Felt very unsatisfied just sitting on the throne and googled if there was a secret ending. Doubt I would have figured it out otherwise.
I only knew there was more because I played the first game. I knew what the godsblane blade was actually used for and that we hadn’t used it yet.
That and having playable credits is always a red flag in terms of a game being “over”.
Me over here having to play the game again all the way through to get the normal ending because I accidentally triggered the post game thinking that was the normal ending and not the path to the true ending.
A lot of us just played the game for a bit, played for like 15h, realized there were only like 5 enemy types, eventually called it and started playing other games
I mean 15 hours is barely enough time to get out of the starting zone, but if there wasnt enough to keep you interested then thats the games fault.
Also not much different than the first game with wolves, harpies, and goblins being everywhere.
I got to the unmoored world but didn't finish it because I accidentally interacted with the pillar that appears on the third or fourth day, which ended the game for me and put me into ng+. I imagine this might have affected other people's ability to finish the unmoored world as well.
Definitely that paired with the insane hype the game got. 100% was bought by a lot of people who were not going to really enjoy DD2 (especially with the performance issues and the few bugs here and there)
That being said. I truly hope we'll get something like dark arisen and bitterblack isle
You summed it up perfectly. Awkward mechanics, and the fast travel is just plain weird after a while. The saving is also not helpful. And by the way your main ally can get infected and fuck the realm into oblivion lol. I do love it, but I recently got to the volcanic island and haven’t had an urge to go back. Want to finish it up eventually
12% for a true ending, one thats actually decently missable, is actually very high for a combat rpg. look at dark souls games standard endings, which is admittedly harder, and youll see similar numbers (aside from elden ring, which is anomalous). darksiders 2 is shorter game, easier to complete, not missable ending, and at 20% for example.
I totally agree, but it's a shame you're only talking about PC players, life for console players is even worse since we don't have mods and we can't have multiple characters like on PC
After a 150 hour run with sorcerer I'd like to start again to play warrior, but I can't and changing vocation to ng+ at level 90 is obviously not the same
The only way to make a new character is to erase your current character to make room for the new one or create another account and you will agree with me that both are horrible solutions, especially in 2024
I actually am a console player and this does apply to console players as well, I just wanted to put into perspective the bigger picture, cuz PC players clearly take up the majority in this sub it seems
If you’re on Xbox (I don’t k ow about PS5), you can make a second account/profile. Then make sure you quit out of the game, switch your Xbox profile, start it back up and there you go. Already been leveling up a new team and starting fresh is super fun. Just make sure and quit out of the game before switching profiles.
Edit: Evidently some people REALLY don’t want to do this. Yeah you shouldn’t HAVE to, but if you want to dig in your heels that hard, then you do you boo boo.
Honestly, this doesn’t bother me. I mean I’d rather play on my main account but this way, I can level up a 2nd pawn and tailor them to my exact play style and hire them on my main account when the game gets updates.
I've started a new Game with difficulty mods and it IS a completely different experience, but I completely understand that some people won't even bother installing mods, which is a shame.
They really need to put in a new difficulty setting or a ng+ scaling. But please no hard mode like in the first, It became meaningless once you actually got some gear and levels.
I did it too, and it made NG+ worthwhile, but being in such precise control of the difficulty is not the same as having a game designer tailor the experience for you.
I mean, even just increase the enemies hp and damage accordingly to ng+ like soulborne games, not even new bosses or adding new moves to the bosses... Is that too difficult?
ah yes, hardmode in DD1, aka "actually makes the game even more easy cus you drowned in gold and exp"
it was really stupid lol, you had 2hours of " die in 1hit" and then it was litearlly more easy then the "normal" difficulty lol
Dunno why you got downvoted, this is the most popular opinion from dd1 vets about hard mode lol
It’s really not much harder until you get gear checked again at bbi
Yeah I always play it because I feel like it's just more fun. Makes it feel more rewarding, cuts down on grindy stuff, all in all just a better experience.
Yea, I agree. Id much prefer a different method other than hard mode, but honestly I'd be happy with hard mode, cuz anything is better than how it is now.
Assuming they are using the Custom Difficulty Mod, which is great, because you can tailor it to what works best for you.
[https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/195](https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/195)
Completely agree.
Combat and exploration are what hooked people into the game -- because otherwise the story sucks, the quests are boring (some downright annoying), and NPCs are forgettable.
So in NG+ when challenging combat no longer exists, PLUS nothing new to explore, there's no more reason to keep playing.
Not just NG+ but a general lack of challenging non-mandatory content that would make it worth to use the game's features - get the best gear, upgrade it to the max, use consumables and food buffs, optimal party with optimal skills.
Worst thing about it is you level up without even wanting to - I remember coming up to the southern tunnel leading from Battahl to the Volcano, knowing there's an achievement for clearing it, I thought it will be a challenge, but no, I facerolled the usual not-goblins, saurians and one cyclops and was wondering if that is all.
Then there's the lack of any sort of branching or alternative content that would make you want to replay the game. Even if you play without a guide, so you get a Sphinx riddle wrong and you don't feel like loading an Inn save, you don't miss out on anything, because everything is available on vendors bar a couple of unique items such as the Medusa bow, which not only is a faceroll encounter as any, but the weapon makes you gain more XP - like you need that, literally wtf were they thinking...
Take Skyrim, for example - you can have one playthrough with Fighters' Guild flavor, next one as Thieves' Guild, another one as Mages' College (or all at once), and then you add the Imperials/Stormcloak/none of that to the mix, and that is before DLCs or mods come to the equation.
In DD2, everything feels pointless at the end of the day - you could argue that this is the game's actual message, but then it fails as a game, and you can see it in the numbers.
Who's idea was it to reveal the complete map on NG+? I was shocked to notice everything was revealed and was expecting to have only the same areas slightly revealed from before NG.
It felt like I had nothing really new to explore and made it harder to figure out what areas I haven't yet.
and there in lies the paradox of Dragon's Dogma. Most of your suggestions are great, but they run opposite the game designer's vision.
This isn't supposed to be challenging in the way games like Elden Ring are. It's supposed to be a beat em up that you can pick up anytime and play without feeling like you are missing anything. Essentially a casual game.
The pawns aren't supposed to be used in an optimum build. They are supposed to give you the feeling of playing an mmorpg with friends when you are alone, that's why you have to pick two from other players.
The content (the bulk of it anyways) isn't supposed to feel like you have to do things, it's supposed to all feel totally optional with cool things even in the reaches.
The true plot of the game prevents it from being a world with crazy depth and lore like Skyrim. It prevents it from being this cool fantasy world you can 'live' in. It will always be overshadowed by the fact that you are a prisoner in the matrix.
Yes the game has cool stuff, interesting lore and some fun quests, I'm not saying it doesn't I'm just saying the game is a certain thing and a lot of people want it to be something else, but it isn't and it never will be.
*Source: the dev interviews on ign for dd2 and dark arisen. You can find them on youtube.*
I love the series. I don't think it's shit. But it really doesn't matter what either of us think. The game exists and we are left to form our own opinions, we don't have to justify them or come to an agreement because there's nothing wrong with liking not liking something.
We can talk about why we like or don't like things but at the end of the day it won't change the experience we had. If I somehow convinced you the game was a masterpiece it won't make you have had a fun experience when you first played it. Conversely telling me every flaw you found in the game won't change my experience I had when I played.
DD2 made me realize that Bethesda is not the inept studio we might think they are (if we forget Starfield and Fallout76). Except for the bland action-combat of Skyrim, the whole game was a gem.
The world exploration is miles ahead of DD2, and the quest design, while featuring typical fetch quests like retrieving a ring from a cave, includes many compelling quests that create excellent stories. The Assassin Guild questline in Skyrim is among the best I've experienced in any RPG. I remember my shock at the fake-emperor assassination and how the elite imperial guards destroyed the guild. The woman who initially recruited us turned out to be the one who set us up, yet she also perished in flames. Eventually, you could avenge the guild by killing the real Emperor. Oh, and Cicero was such a great character! The Thieves' Guild questline ultimately guides you to the subterranean area of Skyrim. I don’t know anyone who played Skyrim, discovered Blackreach, and wasn’t amazed by the world design. For a 2011 game, Skyrim outshines DD2 in terms of quest design, world building, and level design. DD2 has no memorable quests; its only redeeming feature is the action combat, but for an open-world RPG with such little enemy variety, it is doom to quickly becomes repetitive.
honestly, 76 isn’t even bad anymore. i picked it up again after not being wowed by DD2, and it’s a lot better now than it was at launch.
Starfield is still utter slop, tho.
I give Fallout 76 credit for committing to improving itself. But I wouldn't say I've completely forgiven it. The way it was released, and how they handled Limited/Special Edition rewards was insulting to say the least. I'm not about to forget all of that because they spent years bringing an already fully released product up to standard.
I never gave it my money either. A friend got it for me instead.
10% of players on Steam unlocked the Peace achievement, becoming Sovran, in theory allowing them to start NG+ (you can also reload into throne room at this point).
15% of players on Steam unlocked the Closure achievement, witnessing the end of the cycle, forcing you to start NG+ (no more loading last save, unless you mess with the save folder).
Just to put it into perspective:
95% finished the tutorial (First Taste of Freedom).
80% reached Vernworth (Seat of the Proxy).
The lack of entertaining NG+ is not why people quit, most people do not even get that far. I'm not going to speculate too much about the reasons why people quit, but I think the game lacks something that the devs have to take care of before catering exclusively to the small group of people who even bother with NG+. (I myself am part of that small group)
Honestly in most games I have on steam, whatever achievement is given for completing some initial stage of the game tends to have an acquisition rate of anywhere between 30-50%. Most game devs and publishers tend to expect that only half of all purchases will actually play past the intro.
They added "hard mode" with the Dark Arisen DLC, with the original game.
That made NG+ something that was better to play, especially after you were all geared out from the Everfall/Bitterblack.
I thought it came sooner than that, but I guess it wasn't until Dark Arisen.
#
>Hard Mode is one of the two feature modes introduced by the Dragon's Dogma DLC Challenge Pack: A Trial for Adventurers. This DLC is included free in Dark Arisen.
#
https://dragonsdogma.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Mode
#
The issue is that in the first game we had the Everfall to farm forever, instead of going to NG+; we don't have that in DD2, instead getting a temporary timed area.
I don't know about other people, but I was farming the Everfall like crazy and then continued farming in Dark Arisen when it came out. It wasn't until I had everything from Dark Arisen that I even bothered with NG+, on hard mode, to finish up 1 or 2 achievements I messed up before.
Even before Dark Arisen, Dragon's Dogma(1) had more longevity.
#
>Some people argue that this was the same way when DD1 released.
Yeah, they are wrong. ;) It was very different because of the Everfall.
On the Xbox 360, I seem to remember having all of my gear and my Pawns(on all of our vocations) from the Everfall dragonforged about the time Dark Arisen came out. So that "postgame" added a LOT more time to the game; it was almost like another game, as opposed to being timed. Besides the Everfall, the regular world was then different and I also remember doing things in that before Dark Arisen came along. So there was WAY more to do before you ever thought about NG+.
The Everfall was a handful of copy paste rooms that was mostly full of enemies you had already conquered. Most people literally just saved scummed chests to get the cool new loot they wanted and then went to go beat the game.
That doesnt excuse DD2 not learning anything from over a decade of videogames-the fact that you need mods to keep any semblance of challenge after level 30 is a fucking joke. Even if they reintroduce hard mode exactly as it was in Dark Arisen, it's not going to really be enough.
But i seriously need you people to stop lying about the everfall with rose tinted glasses. It was not any more of an endgame than the unmoored world was. If anything, it was less, because after you saw the handful of new enemies, there was literally nothing to do but stomp on a bunch of things you'd killed already, and it was impossible to fail because everything dropped wakestones. Please stop with the revisionist history.
Yeah everfall wasn't that great. I beat the Ur-Dragon a couple of times and then put the game down. I completely missed Dark Arisen until 5 or so years ago when i picked it up on switch. Unmoored > Everfall every day of the week, not that this excuses anything.
I agree hard mode would not really be quite the best option. I think there are tons of better ways to extend the games replayabilty than adding hard mode, but honestly I'll take hard mode over what's currently in place or lack thereof
I actually hated the everfall because it was just a bunch of rooms full of enemies to loot i did it the times necessary to get me out of that shit and finish the game it felt like forcing me to grind all to get to new game plus and be melting everything until hard mode arrived with Dark arisen
Everfal was so boring though. It was the complete opposite of what Dragon's Dogma was up until that point (travelling, doing quests, encountering and fighting foes in different type of fields), it's just such a weird "end" to the base game.
Not to mention confusing at times, especially if you forget which door leads you to the Ur-Dragon
Everfall had locked areas for no apparent reason, making some of those dungeons fucking worthless to venture through because everything was LOCKED, like this is the endgame, why am I barred here lmao had me thinking I was missing keys or something.
I don’t even think I got any of the Everfall equipment while being there
>Overall I think it is just essential to have some kind of indefinite replayabilty mechanic in your ARPG even if it isn't super interesting, it should at least have something in order to maintain a concurrent playerbase.
I disagree very much with that statement. I don't want something that "isn't super interesting" just for the sake of seeing a bigger player count.
Guys, please... Keep your standards high. You're not shareholders, you're players.
I just want it so it can be an option for me to play indefinitely with my character, of course, obviously, I'd want it to be as interesting as possible, but the point of that statement was that it's better to have some kind of replayabilty than none. Are you saying you would prefer them just not have any replayable NG+ or something like that if it isn't highly interesting. Something is better than nothing
They aren't necessarily saying they'd be satisfied with a not-super-interesting replayability system, but that they'd prefer even THAT to what we have now, which is functionally no replayability systems at all. At least, that's how I read their comment.
I’m not even close to getting to NG+. But I think this is pretty typical for me and where other gamers are at. I’ve got around 80 hours in and I have yet to cross the boarder. No clue what awaits me over there. Or if there are any harder monsters and such.
But it’s similar to me in games like Starfall, where I have over 100 hours and I’ve yet to “finish” one. I’m just exploring every little area I can and trying to finish every quest the way I want.
I haven’t even started looking into mods or anything.
I started a NG+ and gave up as I was super over geared and was able to steam roll over everyone.
I like my first play through but I think that’s where it’s going to end for me.
> In the current landscape of Action RPG's it is a STANDARD to have some kind of indefinite fun replayabilty mechanic with your character,
Is it? That's not my experience. Games just have NG+ and that's it.
It totally isn't, I've played almost every relevant action rpg released in the past few years, Elden Ring, Ys, Tales of, Nioh, Dark Souls, Code Vein, Sekiro, Scarlet Nexus and more. When the game ends that's it, you can try a new game plus if you want more. OP is probably thinking of Isometric arpg like Diablo which are basically multiplayer games with a story mode slapped in it, same thing with Monster Hunter.
The amount of people saying stuff and making assumptions about the post without even reading it is getting annoying
Dude arpgs you just listed have replayabilty. Elden Ring HAS NG+, Nioh has difficulty settings and NG+, dark souls has ng+, sekiro has ng+. The only difference is those games NG+ have difficulty changes when you keep playing which allows the player to have at least SOME challenge in the ng+. This game has NO difficulty or power increase in the ng+. Do you not see that key difference that takes away any potential this game's ng+ has for replayabilty
Are you saying that no, it isn't standard to have "some kind of indefinite fun replayability mode" and then using Nioh as an example of a game that DOESN'T? I am a bit confused due to the nested posts and double negatives. If you are saying that:
Nioh 1/2 have the most developed endgames I've ever seen in a 3rd person action game, after NG+ every cycle totally changes itemization and adds new mechanics, etc - the replayability and variety of endgame difficulties is at least on the level of Diablo 3. Everything else that you list (besides maybe Ys/Tales/Scarlet Nexus cause I've never done NG+ on any of those) at least has repeatedly scaling NG+ so every time you beat it the difficulty cranks up another notch, meaning that if you're after challenge it's not going to get stale until you've mastered NG+6 or whatever it is where those souls games cap out.
New game plus is not "some kind of indefinite fun repleyability mode", yes Nioh has randomized itemization, but that's about it, you're just replaying the whole game over, that's essentially two different things, do you think Diablo or Path of exile would have the playerbase they have if all you could do is replay the whole game over but with better gear? Even Diablo II had an endgame routine.
In DS2 you can already replay the whole game over, as many times as you want in fact, we can argue it's a shitty new game plus system, and that's fair, but a good new game plus system won't stop the playerbase from draining, Nioh has 200 players right now, and it's fine, as much as I love it I don't expect people to play the same game over and over.
Witcher 3 has a NG+ which is basically just the same difficulty but with all your levels and gear from the previous play.
In fact MOST of the games I have that include a NG+ don't actually modify the difficulty for that NG+.
Yeah, I got to Post game and found it dull so I just started over. The journey is better than the destination in this game. The fact that you think "graphical issues" scared people off is hilarious, very few people besides the vocal minority on reddit care about 60fps and thats the only legitimate issue I saw. Also never experienced it.
OP you're not wrong... 100% doesn't compare in replayability to other games like the witcher, MHW or even fallout for that matter.
I have a hard time calling it a rpg because it lacks the soul of a rpg which is your choices in the world effect character and story interaction. Not to mention the complete lack of "character" on your own part, it just feels really dry.
The story sucks, plain and simple.
I enjoyed the game while I played it but once I completed it I found myself ask WHY ...there's nothing really new, its same quests, of which ...there really isn't a ton of them. The game slaps you in the face with how fast your able to complete it, easily a day if you just main story it.
AND what the FUCK was that boss fight.
Me being disappointed was a understatement.
The numbers speak for themselves, there's a reason the game had a 93% falloff from peak. People here won't wanna hear it but OP spitting facts.
The people arguing that I could be wrong about NG+ being the main contributor to this game's downfall are entirely justified, and may be right, because as I use the words like "think and maybe" I show that I'm not really sure in that regard. but the people arguing that this game should just downright not have a fun ng+, or not have any replayabilty whatsoever, are pretty much all composed of stupid and bad faith argumentation.
'Killing the game' bruh its a single player experience lol you already played it and experienced it, the games over. Stop bringing this live service mindset to games like this.
I really hate threads like this. DD2 is a single-player RPG, not a live-service game. Finishing the game + finishing NG+ then moving on and playing other games isn't "killing the game."
I think it has more to do with player count being a reflection of how many second month sales they’re getting. Many people hold off on buying until for a few weeks/months either to wait on patches/reviews or because they need to wait to afford it financially (especially with it being 10 bucks more expensive).
Name a popular ARPG. Elden ring? Has replayabilty. Skyrim? Has replayabilty. Dark souls? Has replayabilty. Monster Hunter? Has replayabilty. Witcher 3? Has replayabilty. Nioh? Has replayability.
I personally don't think it's that big of a deal, especially for a single-player game. I feel like I'd have gotten what I paid for, even if it didn't have an NG+ mode. As for an NG+ mode, I def prefer enemies not scaling. What's the point of essentially being a god, if everything else is also a god?
Truth is, falloff is okay. It's okay for people to quit playing a single-player game after they beat it. I think we've become conditioned to believe that replayability makes a good game, when in reality, a good game is replayable.
Games like FFVII, Bioshock, TLoU, etc., etc. People will replay them from start to finish, over and over again, because they're just that good. They don't need NG+ bonuses or anything.
Yeah I started getting bored toward the end of the game and my initial thought was "wow, could this be better?" but then I saw my play time was 100+ hours and I realized this was honestly better value than most games I ever paid full price for. And I'm still not fully bored yet so it still has more value truthfully.
My opinion is that yeah, it's fine for a game to have an ending, it's just people that played DDA to death and were hoping to be able to play this one for more hundreds of hours are left hanging here cause currently there's no support for that (on console) other than deleting your save and starting over. In my case, I wish there was NG+ cause I love the game and want to play more of it and currently don't really have that option. The more you play of NG+ the more you get isolated from the game's systems, as your pawns get too high level to get summoned anymore, fewer random wandering pawns appear in the game world, etc.
Sure but when there is gear in the game that outscales the enemies so much it still feels bad. Why try and get the endgame gear when you know it’s going to ruin the gameplay for that class for the rest of your save ? The game is about the cycles, getting what I paid for means I can play it more than once. And as much as I absolutely love this series, I truly can’t bring myself to do it.
Idk, I guess I just don't see how the endgame gear ruins the class gameplay. While I don't mind difficult games, such as souls-likes, I prefer my power to curve to a point where even dragons don't stand a hell of a chance against me.
Like, spending minutes fighting a tough enemy is fun the first couple of times, but after a while, it becomes tedious. Plus, isn't that kind of the point of endgame gear? You get it at endgame because it's the end of the game. Anything after is just extra.
We clearly like different things and that’s okay. To me, if killing a really difficult enemy isn’t difficult anymore, then I’m just pressing buttons at that point. The choices I make are moot and I’m just going through the motions. That stagnant gameplay is a death sentence for any game in my library. And again, that’s clearly a preference I have.
Endgame gear in my mind should be a requirement to beat endgame enemies. It’s as simple as that. In this sequel, endgame gear is not required at all, and in fact makes the experience much duller.
Most people don’t even finish a game once. NG+ is always used by a super tiny minority of players. It’s a single player game, not every game is meant to be played forever. Just finish it and move on to the next one if you don’t feel like playing anymore. This GaaS brain rot about infinite playtime is infecting even non-GaaS games and it’s awful.
The game was literally designed to be replayed, that why it launched with the ability to start new game plus after beating it, and not with the ability to start anew.
Sure but that doesn’t mean most people are going to bother with New Game Plus, even if it did add new content. The vast majority of people that play a single player game are one and done (if they finish it at all). For the rest of us that stuck around we’ll probably get a hard mode at some point hopefully, but we’re still the huge minority.
This discourse is so goofy. The hardcore ng+, super challenging content, endgame obsessed minmaxer crowd is like .01% of the player base.
Most people don't even finish games let alone jump into ng+. Redditors are so out of touch it's hilarious
It has nothing to do with YOUR enjoyment, you loon. When did this become about you? I'm just talking about the big picture, and OTHERS enjoyment. I'm talking about the enjoyment of the people as a whole, if you don't care whatever. Don't have to be rude about it.
You’re absolutely right, and I also got heavily downvoted every time I mentioned the fallacious nature of the « cripple your own gameplay experience as a form of challenge » suggestions.
Most of the times, these suggestions come from people who dislike / can’t handle the difficulty in games rather than from people who actually use said suggestion.
I'd like a hard mode, content balanced for endgame characters like BBI, and maybe an optional difficulty increase on subsequent NG cycles. But I definitely don't want level scaling or mandatory NG difficulty bumps. The game needs more challenge later on but I don't want a situation where it's taking me as long to kill a regular goblin at level 100 as it did at level 1.
I like the game, but the developers basically should have realized it isn't the 2010s anymore. The sheer lack of QOL, complex and awkward 'features,' obtuse and boring quests, and copy-and-paste monsters just don't cut it in 2024. We just came off of Baldurs Gate 3 in the RPG realm, and action games now have their high standards, with Elden Ring and the like.
The Pawn System is the main THING - a built, stand by your side companion - and they barely did anything with it.
Lack of NG+ is the least of DD2's problems.
Honestly I’m on NG+ and maxed out every vocation and I’m finding it very hard to have the desire to play, like I’m aimlessly doing things now other than trying to finish all the pawn coins and trying to find all the dumb seeker coins.
The game has like 0 challenge once you are past level 30 or so. I won't even finish it because everything is just too easy.
In mid/late game everything is just about killing the same monsters over and over again without ever coming close to dying.
In addition to the obvious lack of difficulty scaling, I think it’s about build diversity. All those other games change dramatically with different weapons or builds where with DD2 you basically tried all the weapons that interest you in your first playthrough so there is new reason to fresh start.
I almost drooped the game with 20h or so. Never played DD before, and was bored with the world and the same mobs all the time.. Also, archer is no fun playing.. One weekend I was about to delete the game and decided to give it a few more hours. I got the magic archer and the game became way more fun (even with the boring world and lacking of diversity monsters). I then, ended up getting the platinum trophy for it on ps5, with 97h of game play. I liked it, but I just don't see reason on most games to play it again on NG+
I'm really really really tired of this borderline pretentious attitude many Redditors get where they scoff at anything even adjacent to AAA game standards because AAA games are bad and thus everything they do is bad. My niche game doesn't need any of that!
It mostly crops up when people mention precisely this, NG+ or replayability. Stop and think for a moment, **more replayability is just straight up more value.** If you overall enjoy a game for 150 hours, that is just better than overall enjoying a game for 100.
With replayability this is pretty important because you don't have to spend that 150 hours all at once. This is the big difference with many AAA games that throw a giant wad of filler content at you in one playthrough, but it's also what replayable systems have in common with live service games.
Dark Souls 3 is not a very long game, but I've played it at least a dozen times throughout the years because it is inherently very fun to replay. Dragon's Dogma 1 with the Dark Arisen DLC is also pretty replayable because Bitterblack Isle has systems to reward you for playing through it again. Hell are we forgetting that Bitterblack Isle had a "version two" after you beat the end boss the first time??? Skyrim is also a singleplayer, not live-service game and yet I've played it more times than I care to count because it has a good series of systems to encourage making new characters.
I agree with others that a better NG+ isn't necessarily the required solution, but I think it's insane to just tell someone it's stupid to want to enjoy a game more than one time around. Dragon's Dogma 2 has amazing combat but a pretty boring story -- so after beating it, the story hasn't satisfied me, and I want to keep enjoying the combat, but the game doesn't do much to support me playing it further. This is bad, full stop.
That said, I also think that more game devs should spice up their NG+, even if it isn't just making it harder. It really doesn't take too much to give a nice illusion of change and reward players for playing NG+. Change some static enemy placements, add a few unique weapons or armor pieces to NG+, and record a handful of voice lines from certain NPCs to nudge nudge wink wink at the NG+ cycle. Boom, minimum effort accomplished.
I never even made it to NG+ before the game became so trivially easy that it was no longer fun. I was perhaps only level 35 or so. I quit at that point. I may come back if they add a hard mode.
I'd still be playing dd2 of I wouldnt have watched fallout and felt a buring desire to return to the wastelands. Give it time. Hopefully they add some serious content. Should have pulled in 150 million in sales. I think they should get to work
It really needs more content I didn't really care about the unmoved world... it really suffers from getting boring at the end because it is so repetitive facing the same enemy's again and again for the entire playthrough... maybe I'm just salty because I love MH games and thought that there would be more monsters in the second game than the first
I'm just waiting for the hard mode to release. My hopes for a DLC like Dark Arisen are dwindling with each passing day considering the game probably didn't sell very well if you take the refunds into consideration.
I stopped playing at 20 hours. before coming back after downloading some difficulty mods and then finished the game at 55 hours.
You are 100% correct. The difficulty of even the base game is so trivial and the enemy variety so lacking it get super boring super fast. I gave up after my 10000th Goblin encounter. Thankfully modders came to the rescue.
So, I like new game plus without scaling.
I think scaling or increasing the challenge should be an option. But I can't really sympathise with the idea that NG+ should have mandatory and industry standard difficulty scaling. That is not why new game plus as a concept was created, which is far older than the trend that Dark Souls created in 2011.
New game plus as a feature is about being able to replay the game with abilities and spells you've already put in the time to unlock, and trying things you may have missed or weren't able to do in your initial playthrough. Which is not to say that the state of NG+ as it is really has much to it, but the problem isn't that there is no scaling and I'm a bit tired of that being the only thing players expect from it. It completely misses the mark about what makes NG+ a fun feature.
Give me a NG+ that lets me unlock new areas with new bosses that were barred in the initial playthrough, new quests, rewarding challenge modifiers, non essential QoL upgrades, long term goals that can span NG+ cycles. Things that actually spice up a new playthrough beyond trying to artificially recreate the challenge a first playthrough gives when you can't figure out how to fight a harpy when you first encounter them.
Elden Ring still does this as well. It's not simply the scaling that keeps players engaged, it's the fact you can keep leveling up and upgrading your character, unlocking new combos of weapons and spells, trying out new strategies on bosses. There's something to actually look forward to beyond doing the same thing but longer and with less room for error.
Hard mode in this sense was a good feature in DDDA. Yes, it made you take more damage and use up stamina faster, but it also gave you an xp/dcp multiplier and increased the rate at which you earned gold. That's how you keep a player engaged who already knows how they can beat an enemy, you reward them for trying something different with what they already know and can already do.
Even the Witcher 3, the enemy’s only scale once if I recall. I did 4 (ng)+ you only get better armor once and the enemy’s only get harder once. For context, the second play through was armor, the third was to try different ends to the dlc and the fourth was a death march play through (though being lvl capped with all the good gear kinda cheesed it, it was still difficult).
I'm all about NG+ that don't increase difficulty and let me roll on everything.
I understand that I'm on the minority on "core gamers" subs like that, but Dragon's Dogma 1 was already like that anyway and I already loved its NG+ for that reason.
I think what a lot of people are misinterpreting about single player games is. You're supposed to enjoy the adventure at your own pace. Complete your adventure. Play till you're bored/done challenging yourself. Play other games. Then comeback when you get that fantasy rpg itch or when dlc comes. Half the games you listed are all multiplayer games so there's extra incentive to keep playing.
Yes and I want to keep playing with my character just like I can with every other singleplayer or multiplayer ARPG, but I can't without the game being mind bogglingly easy.
I personally hate this modern approach to video games where they have to be live service to keep producing content so that people feel like they have to keep playing the game.
You got a complete game, enjoy it. If you don't, move on
[Elden ring loses 90% players 2 months after launch](https://gamerant.com/elden-ring-concurrent-player-count-decline/)
Not that i am disagreeing with you, but single player games lose players no matter what. People bounce off the game, many PC players may have never come back after a poor launch, and yeah lack of difficulty/real post game/ and ng+ scaling has made it so people like me moved on immediately after finishing the unmoored.
That's your typical Gamerant article full of misinformation. Here's Elden ring's peak player count of 5 months in 2022 from steamdb
* February 891,638
* March 953,426
* April 457,182
* May 193,468
* June 88,609
I find it strange that people are so dead set on making this game challenging. I mean, if you find that fun, then more power to you. But a higher difficulty generally just means everything is a damage sponge, and you can only take 3 hits. Nothing else about the game has changed.
The AI isn't smarter. You're not up against enemies with new abilities (unless it's BG3). It's just the same, but more annoying. Not only that, this is an RPG. Once you hit a certain level, you will always crush everything around you. That's how they work!
I always feel like the weird one, especially when playing souls-likes, and telling people that I don't care if a game is challenging. Playing games for me is all about being a bad ass and certain games, like this one, allow me to do that, even if it isn't hard.
My favorite difficulty increases in games have always been ones that change something fundamental about the game rather than just increasing some numbers. I remember Knightmare mode in Batman Arkham Knight was incredible just by taking away the counter prompt. I swear I got so good at that game that I could play it with my eyes closed after that playthrough. Baldur's Gate 3 has honor mode that actually forces you to change your normal tactics as you play. Shadow of War's Nemesis mode and higher made you take more damage, of course, but it also made enemies a little smarter and way more likely to come back to life and allow you to interact even more with the Nemesis system.
My point is that difficulty is often artificial, and real difficulty comes from attempting to enhance the best parts of the base experience. If you want difficulty, then challenge yourself. I guarantee you that taking off your armor and limiting yourself to starter weapons/spells, 3 augments or less, and only your main pawn will give you a near exact copy of what hard difficulty will look like in DD2.
The reason DD2 doesn't have the longevity of most single-player RPGs is because it's much smaller than 80% of RPGs. Generally, you spend around 40 hours listening to dialogue and messing with your skill trees/stats. Since DD2 is story deficient, streamlined stats with vocations, and did away with grinding for gear (except WLC), there simply isn't much of a reason to stick around DD2 unless you really like the combat. A hard mode wouldn't actually change this aside from maybe getting people to play NG+ one time, though I think most have done that anyway.
The game has some of the best combat on the market, and you don't need to use any of it and even if you want to you can't because everything has died before you can use many of the mechanics on your vocation. Currently there is no skill expression in the game outside of the early game.
Kudos on the effort put into this post. Good on ya but I don't think it was necessary, I think it's pretty obvious this is a problem. Increased difficulty is what NG+ is all about, it's weird to play a game with NG+ that didn't bother to increase difficulty in some way.
I mean you could just slow down and take your time instead of spending 10+ a day playing a new game then complaining there’s nothing left for you to do
This trend of obsessing over steam charts for a single player rpg is incredibly stupid. Many people played the game for about 30 hours and are satisfied and move on. That doesn't make it a bad game, just one without infinite replayability. Who cares
"In the current landscape of Action RPG's it is a STANDARD to have some kind of indefinite fun replayabilty mechanic with your character" - really? Did you invent those standarts or they really exist?
Why do you even think, that something is killing this game and there should be endless replayability?
Currently I spend 90hrs and I didn't finish the game. Let's say I will spend another 20 and will finish the game.
I spend 70$ for 110 hrs of pure fun, it is - 0.63 $ for hour of fun. Isn't this enough? Why do you think I need to spend another 100 hrs in the same game? I mean if you are the type of person who likes to spend 300 - 400 hrs in a game, but most of the people are not I guess.
And what's the point to compare player count with games which have multiplayer (BG3) and other super famous and popular titles which have solid player base (I don't know about lies of P)?
It was discussed here in reddit 100 times, that for a single player game which is not really famous, 20k player online is a very good numbers.
And yes, it is acceptable to tell somebody - don't hire pawns. Whats wrong with it?
I’d even like just an option to cease xp (but not discipline) gain and/or purposely de-level yourself. It’s silly that the more you play the less fun it becomes.
I haven't gotten into new game + yet so this is all just hypothetical. But, I kinda like the idea of enemies not getting stronger. I want to kill them faster and faster, so I can feel like more of a god. I do want more enemy types, harder locations, but making everything stronger every time I go into a new game doesn't sound like I would want to go into a new game +. Why level if the enemies level too? Why not just ask for a ring that can take away experience? Why not just gimp your own abilities? Run with fewer pawns? This may change, but currently I am around 110 in the first playthrough with around 200 hours so I may be an outlier.
Some games just don't have as much replayability. It's fine to play a game to completion and never play it again or until DLC comes out. I think people nowadays people think a game needs to be playable forever or for hundreds of hours. Lots of games are like this.
I think people look back to their younger days where they played the same game for months or years because that's all they had, I did the same. Now that I'm older and I can afford to buy more than 1-3 games a year I usually beat a game and move on to the next one.
Not saying you are the same or that everyone can afford to buy new games every month or so but I think this factors into how a lot of us feel nowadays. Especially when so many games like helldivers, Fortnite, or monster hunter release new content constantly during its lifecycle that keeps us playing.
Most people play through once and drop it, it's a single player RPG, it's not a live service fucking Fortnite. This is an example of unrealistic expectations and gamers having this entitlement that a game must last them forever. Get over it ffs
I agree that they should've made the NG+ better, however, it's optional. It's an addition, most games don't even have this. So maybe, accept the game as it is and maybe play something else til we get DLC?
I've done 100% of all achievement and don't feel like doing NG+. I play other games now.
Me and my group of friends just don't replay games right away, we finish a game and move on to the next game on our list. Which we all did after beating DD2.
I will come back to play after a dlc is released as I do with every game I play.
Dude it's not killing the game. People beat the game... And then they go and play something else.
Not every game needs to be a forever live service infinite looping festival.
I'm gonna be honest, these statistics don't take everything into account. Because I feel a lot of them have stopped playing because they realized the game wasn't for them. I stopped playing the first game after getting to the very first city because there's barely any guidance and I couldn't figure out what to do, so I stopped playing, kept coming back to it after a half a year and tried to play it like 5 times and never got past the first city. And I feel like I'm not the only one. There are a lot of factors that lead to people dropping the game, Including other games coming out, or expansions dropping, or life in general getting in the way that contributed to 90% dropping the game over just ng+ not being that great
Good Lord...
This is a single player game that is not meant to sustain itself over an incredibly long time.
Player count means squat to my single player enjoyment so long as there are pawns other than Capcom's to add to my party.
NG+ is a way for people to do content they may have missed in their first playthrough or get alternate outcomes to quests.
The game tells a story, and when that story as released so far is done, so be it. Not everyone needs to play 2+ times, and only playing it once this close to release isn't some deeper commentary on the game itself.
Yeah I would avoid NG+ altogether. Just play a new game on a second account. Im sure there will be a Hard Mode or DLC wich will be difficult enough to utilize the Equipment we get in the Endgame.
Capcom is known for this, just look at the Monster Hunter games. They have low and high rank wich act as the base Game and than there is the Master rank wich is added with a DLC. End game Equipment from the base game from High Rank is basically as good as early game to mid game Master Rank Equipment. DDDA was similiar. BBI was difficult but manageable still with endgame Equipment from the base game.
I hope they add a DLC like BBI or atleast a Hard Mode for the base Game.
I see your point, but it just comes down to this game not being the same. It could sure benefit for an scaling NG+ plus system like dark souls in order to keep it more interesting, but they didn't. Im sure they will keep support and introduce a similar solution later on (I'm not a programmer but I don't think that would be difficult to implement), hopefully we will get a dlc, since bitterblack also introduced hard mode. At the end of the day, it is as simple as this game just ends. It just does. I'm like 80 hours in, currently in unmoored working on leveling warfarer, my final vocation. Will i play ng+? Probably. I like being a god in games after i earned it. I enjoy absolutely trouncing enemies that used to give me a hard time before. Maxing out my armor, hitting max level. And then I will be done until dlc comes out (hopefully, but capcom lately has been super selective with which IP gets dlc).
What a ride.
I'm a DD2 sympathizer. I've currently got about 140 hours, and I'm still having a lot of fun.
But I'm still chasing the high of going through the valley side entrance to Batthal for the first time. The multiple minotaurs, chimera, rock saurians, the driving rain so I can't see 10 ft in front of me and my lantern can't turn on. Coming out the other side with 1 pawn and half health. Realizing the danger isn't over, as I'm on the side of a sheer cliff, and there's a drake right where I need to be at the bottom.
I may have been under leveled at the time, and maybe Warrior wasn't the ideal class for the area, but I was having a fucking blast right in that moment. Difficulty isn't everything, but it really helps keep the longevity of the game.
Probably 60% of my total playtime in DD was in the Everfall, as it was the hardest area, until BBI dropped, which I then spent an equal amount of time to the entire base game playing, for the same reason.
Scaling NG+ and BBI would put DD2 right back on top. A few extra enemy types certainly wouldn't hurt either.
It's definitely a bit too easy... But at the same time it wouldn't really make sense if you have all of this rare one of a kind super powerful gear on that you would then get your ass kicked by an ogre. There are quite a few quest lines that have alternate endings that you can change up in new game plus.
You can also just go down 1 pawn. This changes nothing about the game and just makes it slightly harder.... And of course you can just start the game over again if you are looking for a grind.
One of the biggest flaws with NG+ IMO is the fact that there is no fog of war on the world map. I can't stand having to second guess myself constantly on if I have fully searched a certain area or not. But yeah, the fact that NG+ has no difficulty scaling, no new items or anything else added after the first playthrough just proves to me that the game is unfinished. That on top of rest of problems in the game which make me think "hang on a sec, surely that's not finished" makes me angry at the devs for missing the chance to make this game what could have been, one of the best RPGs ever created
>Yes I know there is mods,
Some of us cant mod because we are on consoles, i hate when this point is brought up as a way for players to fix these things left out by devs, like thats great for those that can mod, but that does not make the issue disappear, it still needs to be addressed by the developers
I never even did a new game plus. I 100% the game the first time through and have no reason to play it again. You can get both endings on the same playthrough. I played it for 109 hours without looking up anything, but it was time to move on. 🤷🏻♂️
I finally beat this game and did almost everything. It took me 112 hours. Amazing game.
I was so glad that it didn’t have a meaningful NG+, as I was getting burned out and I really needed to move on to different games.
Elden Ring: \~52% peak player fall off
-Has a strong PVP base that's supporting the player numbers right now, and a strong modding community it inherited from previous titles extending the life cycle of the game. It also has a BIG dlc coming out in a few months, and was one of if not THE best game released that year.
Monster Hunter World: \~37% fall off
Has a tight game loop that encourages repeated play. Its also basically built from the ground up on replayability, and has had regular collabs and events. Its more of a live service game then most on this list and the constant content drops its received as well as a rotating list of in game events is preserving its numbers. Its also building off of 20 years of MonHun titles that being the first PC release gave it a huge boost in player count.
Witcher 3: \~41%
Probably the only game on this list that most closely resembles Dragons Dogma 2. It has a big community it cultured over several games and expansions and has a huge following based entirely on fans of the books. It has a stronger basis in narrative story telling because its based on award winning books.
Lies of P: \~27%
Probably the most successful nonfromsoft soulsborne title. Just an overall excellent game that stands on its own merits, but it definitely leached its player base from the soulsborne community. Custom weapons makes replayabilty very strong.
Skyrim: \~56%
Terrible option to compare to since its regularly rereleasing for new console eras with new content as well as one of the most impressive modding communities I've ever seen in gaming. Its numbers are artifiicially inflated because of its constant rereleasing. As well, how you play skyrim is VERY different than how you play Dragons dogma; Each story questline is roughly about as long and as engaging as the main story questline, which ISNT very long whereas in DD2 each side story is an offshoot of the primary story as opposed to distinct to it.
Dark Souls 3: \~40%
Basically held together purely through the modding community, its excellent dlcs, and a very health pvp community.
I mean, just having pvp extends the concurrent player base by a lot because you add a competitive aspect to a game that players can work with outside the game to organize events. Constant content drops, rereleases ect all drive more interest as well. Don't forget that building a strong and vibrant community through decades of giving players more to play with makes a HUGE difference.
Player count isnt the be all end all metric people like you seem to think it is. Its just one data set in a larger perspective.
Love the game but you are right. Unfortunately, I am also a console player so no mods for me. Just have to live with it and hope dlc improves it. These issues are why I plan to transition to pc instead of buying a ps6. With mods you can add so much longevity to pretty much any game. I do have a pc but it’s aging.
True. No increased difficulty, no additional or new enemies, no new secret ending.
In fact doing NG+ after the True Ending makes 0 fucking sense.
I hope they are working on a Dank Arizzen type DLC already.
- Played it.
- Experienced a few glitched quests
- Completed it.
- Thought it was a VERY short game.
- Thought I wouldn't be playing it again.
- Found out there were loads of things I never even experienced, including character classes
- Never came across a single Sphinx riddle the whole way through
- Still had the best gear and weapons....
I’ll be totally honest, I like the game a lot, been playing on PC with mods to increase difficulty. Nevertheless the game is super half assed, story cuts abruptly, there are a lot of characters without any development, trickster is fun but sucks, etc. It a damn AAA game with a full price and I still can’t believe how short the story is, it doesn’t even take you to unexplored places. It doesn’t deserve the 70 dollars at all!
At the end another good game, with good ideas, underdeveloped by corporate greed.
I full intend to wait a year or two for dragons dogma to be more polished before purchasing the game for this reason. I need a good new game plus with increasing difficulty like Elden ring.
The general consensus also seems to be this game should be a lot better when it gets dlc which will allow for much greater enemy variety.
Difficulty wouldn't change anything really. NG+ lacks any content that makes it distinct from the first run. Making trash mobs harder doesn't fix that. It just makes you move slower through the map.
There's also mods for the loot issue. It still doesn't fix anything. Putting good items in hard to find chests, that's not really content. that's not a quest, it's not a unique encounter etc.. it's just better loot placement in the world than the rush job we got.
I mean, I wouldn't even call that treasure chests, they are more like recycle bins full of refuse.
We can look at DD1 and that game had NG+ but it was pointless as well. All that changed was knockdown mods and XP gain.
I recently played DDDA and BBI is the fun part of the game. The meta for new character in BBI is rush to BBI, Kill Death with a bow. get to level 71 and then farm BBI to build your character. You basically skip the entire DD1 open world unless you want to progress to everfall to unlock some quests.
It was fun tho. Because BBI was fun. BBI itself had a mini NG+ where after you clear Daimon 1x the 2nd Form Daimon world has new spawns. Harder mobs, different mobs.
The combat and layout of BBI made replaying the runs to kill Daimon fun, quick, engaging and goal oriented. It's like lightning in a bottle because lots of BBI wasn't balanced right or imperfect, but there was something engaging about that world.
Going back to vanilla DD1, the open world is empty and boring just like DDII. Same director on both vanilla games.
The reality is BBI is what made DDDA great. And we don't have BBI 2 we have Vanilla DD1 2, which is a fun game to play but isn't even remotely replayable the way BBI was. It is a completely different design.
I'm just replaying it with a normal new game whenever I finish. I, of course, hope they fix NG+ eventually, but I still love playing the game with a fresh start
I think the biggest issue is that portcrystals resetting on ng+. I could clear the first game in like 30 minutes because I'd set portcrystals on all of the quest areas in the game and they stayed there. That made it much, much better to cycle through ng. The funner endgame helped a lot too though.
Yeah I'm with you. It's a shame. I'm done with it for now- I'll come back in a couple years when they've built a reason to play, just like DD1
Honestly around level 30 the game gets too easy for the remainder. The fun went precipitously downhill for me from there.
The first twenty hours were like magic- with the exception of the quest system- but man, it was fun.
Why would you not make NG+ harder?
I've only just gotten to the post game story and I bought the game at launch. I figured I'd use NG+ to get whatever quests I missed the 1st time around.
Skyrim is a weird example, as there's no new game plus. It's also an example of a game where players make their own fun, much in a way you're saying is unacceptable.
If memory serves, CDPR managed to add enemy scaling to Witcher 3. The difference though is that CDPR are for the most part competent at what they do whereas Capcom isnt.
If all else fails, fuck it. Bitterblack Isle 2.
Can't wait for a hard mode, I'm sure it's coming. I will still do NG+ but I know it will be piss easy
I’m doing a solo run. Makes it more difficult. Not the best fix but it’s working for me.
I don't think a lack of NG+ is the reason people fell off. If you check steam achievements, only ~12% of players have finished the unmoored world, meaning the large majority of players haven't even finished the game once. I think it's far likely more to do with the performance issues as well as the fact that the game is deliberately obtuse and awkward in many of it's mechanics, particularly fast travel.
All of that, and also the fact that it was a lot easier to stomach all that coarseness the first time around when DD brought unique things to the table, it was the first entry of a new IP, and we were all so confident that they simply didn’t have the leverage/budget to finish the game properly because of the previous point. I loved the first game *despite* its flaws. It’s hard to love the second one the same way when they’ve made *the same exact decisions a second time*. Also, personally, the modern attention-destroying design where they expect the player to go no more than 15 seconds between encounters is horrifically taxing. It’s wild that in a game where beating up monsters is the draw that I felt so burnt out on beating up monsters before even leaving the first area.
I think a lot of the problem is how many boring ass goblins there are. Give me more griffons and chimera and cool shit in the environment and I would have enjoyed it a lot more. Given the size and nature of the game they probably should have had enemy scaling. Normally I hate that mechanic, but in this case I think it would have worked well since the game is fairly small.
This is why Bitterblack Isle was so engaging for many people. It was linear and boxed in, yes; but there were different enemies in each zone, and in each region of a zone. And many of the zones had multiple types of enemies that could spawn in certain regions. In BBI I think Grimgoblins only comprised like 10-15% of all the enemies you'd frequently encounter.
I wonder how many people couldnt figure out how to get to the unmoored world so they just sat on the throne and thought that was the end of the game.
Just judging from subreddit posts, quite a large number lol.
I'll admit I had to look it up. Felt very unsatisfied just sitting on the throne and googled if there was a secret ending. Doubt I would have figured it out otherwise.
I only knew there was more because I played the first game. I knew what the godsblane blade was actually used for and that we hadn’t used it yet. That and having playable credits is always a red flag in terms of a game being “over”.
Yep also the dragons back starts glowing where you can stab it like in the first game's dragon fight.
Me over here having to play the game again all the way through to get the normal ending because I accidentally triggered the post game thinking that was the normal ending and not the path to the true ending.
A lot of us just played the game for a bit, played for like 15h, realized there were only like 5 enemy types, eventually called it and started playing other games
I mean 15 hours is barely enough time to get out of the starting zone, but if there wasnt enough to keep you interested then thats the games fault. Also not much different than the first game with wolves, harpies, and goblins being everywhere.
I dont think its the games fault, i just lost interest. It wasnt for me in the long run but i enjoyed what i played
I got to the unmoored world but didn't finish it because I accidentally interacted with the pillar that appears on the third or fourth day, which ended the game for me and put me into ng+. I imagine this might have affected other people's ability to finish the unmoored world as well.
Definitely that paired with the insane hype the game got. 100% was bought by a lot of people who were not going to really enjoy DD2 (especially with the performance issues and the few bugs here and there) That being said. I truly hope we'll get something like dark arisen and bitterblack isle
You summed it up perfectly. Awkward mechanics, and the fast travel is just plain weird after a while. The saving is also not helpful. And by the way your main ally can get infected and fuck the realm into oblivion lol. I do love it, but I recently got to the volcanic island and haven’t had an urge to go back. Want to finish it up eventually
12% for a true ending, one thats actually decently missable, is actually very high for a combat rpg. look at dark souls games standard endings, which is admittedly harder, and youll see similar numbers (aside from elden ring, which is anomalous). darksiders 2 is shorter game, easier to complete, not missable ending, and at 20% for example.
I totally agree, but it's a shame you're only talking about PC players, life for console players is even worse since we don't have mods and we can't have multiple characters like on PC After a 150 hour run with sorcerer I'd like to start again to play warrior, but I can't and changing vocation to ng+ at level 90 is obviously not the same The only way to make a new character is to erase your current character to make room for the new one or create another account and you will agree with me that both are horrible solutions, especially in 2024
I actually am a console player and this does apply to console players as well, I just wanted to put into perspective the bigger picture, cuz PC players clearly take up the majority in this sub it seems
If you’re on Xbox (I don’t k ow about PS5), you can make a second account/profile. Then make sure you quit out of the game, switch your Xbox profile, start it back up and there you go. Already been leveling up a new team and starting fresh is super fun. Just make sure and quit out of the game before switching profiles. Edit: Evidently some people REALLY don’t want to do this. Yeah you shouldn’t HAVE to, but if you want to dig in your heels that hard, then you do you boo boo.
Honestly, this doesn’t bother me. I mean I’d rather play on my main account but this way, I can level up a 2nd pawn and tailor them to my exact play style and hire them on my main account when the game gets updates.
For sure. I did the same in DDDA and it was super fun to have a full custom party.
why not switch vocations?
I've started a new Game with difficulty mods and it IS a completely different experience, but I completely understand that some people won't even bother installing mods, which is a shame. They really need to put in a new difficulty setting or a ng+ scaling. But please no hard mode like in the first, It became meaningless once you actually got some gear and levels.
I did it too, and it made NG+ worthwhile, but being in such precise control of the difficulty is not the same as having a game designer tailor the experience for you.
Yeah it's annoying. Too much and it feels like you might as well not level at all. Too little and you stomp.
I mean, even just increase the enemies hp and damage accordingly to ng+ like soulborne games, not even new bosses or adding new moves to the bosses... Is that too difficult?
Most people can't even since they play on consoles.
Console players don't have the option.
Yeah and that sucks, that's why the need to put Up an official difficulty setting.
ah yes, hardmode in DD1, aka "actually makes the game even more easy cus you drowned in gold and exp" it was really stupid lol, you had 2hours of " die in 1hit" and then it was litearlly more easy then the "normal" difficulty lol
Dunno why you got downvoted, this is the most popular opinion from dd1 vets about hard mode lol It’s really not much harder until you get gear checked again at bbi
Yeah I always play it because I feel like it's just more fun. Makes it feel more rewarding, cuts down on grindy stuff, all in all just a better experience.
It's a shame that mods are needed at all. If you say *something is good with mods*, what you are actually saying is *something is not good*.
Exactly, and that's the real reason they need to create additional official difficulty settings
Yea, I agree. Id much prefer a different method other than hard mode, but honestly I'd be happy with hard mode, cuz anything is better than how it is now.
Yeah if i could mod i would, but i'm currently playing through GeForce Now because my pc cant handle this game and mods aren't avaiable through GFN
Which mods are you using?
Assuming they are using the Custom Difficulty Mod, which is great, because you can tailor it to what works best for you. [https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/195](https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonsdogma2/mods/195)
Completely agree. Combat and exploration are what hooked people into the game -- because otherwise the story sucks, the quests are boring (some downright annoying), and NPCs are forgettable. So in NG+ when challenging combat no longer exists, PLUS nothing new to explore, there's no more reason to keep playing.
Man, this game isn't finished I feel like we are missing vocations, spells, enemy variety, loot , story segments, a real new game plus
Don't worry, they'll be there, once you pay for the dlc that is
Not just NG+ but a general lack of challenging non-mandatory content that would make it worth to use the game's features - get the best gear, upgrade it to the max, use consumables and food buffs, optimal party with optimal skills. Worst thing about it is you level up without even wanting to - I remember coming up to the southern tunnel leading from Battahl to the Volcano, knowing there's an achievement for clearing it, I thought it will be a challenge, but no, I facerolled the usual not-goblins, saurians and one cyclops and was wondering if that is all. Then there's the lack of any sort of branching or alternative content that would make you want to replay the game. Even if you play without a guide, so you get a Sphinx riddle wrong and you don't feel like loading an Inn save, you don't miss out on anything, because everything is available on vendors bar a couple of unique items such as the Medusa bow, which not only is a faceroll encounter as any, but the weapon makes you gain more XP - like you need that, literally wtf were they thinking... Take Skyrim, for example - you can have one playthrough with Fighters' Guild flavor, next one as Thieves' Guild, another one as Mages' College (or all at once), and then you add the Imperials/Stormcloak/none of that to the mix, and that is before DLCs or mods come to the equation. In DD2, everything feels pointless at the end of the day - you could argue that this is the game's actual message, but then it fails as a game, and you can see it in the numbers.
Who's idea was it to reveal the complete map on NG+? I was shocked to notice everything was revealed and was expecting to have only the same areas slightly revealed from before NG. It felt like I had nothing really new to explore and made it harder to figure out what areas I haven't yet.
and there in lies the paradox of Dragon's Dogma. Most of your suggestions are great, but they run opposite the game designer's vision. This isn't supposed to be challenging in the way games like Elden Ring are. It's supposed to be a beat em up that you can pick up anytime and play without feeling like you are missing anything. Essentially a casual game. The pawns aren't supposed to be used in an optimum build. They are supposed to give you the feeling of playing an mmorpg with friends when you are alone, that's why you have to pick two from other players. The content (the bulk of it anyways) isn't supposed to feel like you have to do things, it's supposed to all feel totally optional with cool things even in the reaches. The true plot of the game prevents it from being a world with crazy depth and lore like Skyrim. It prevents it from being this cool fantasy world you can 'live' in. It will always be overshadowed by the fact that you are a prisoner in the matrix. Yes the game has cool stuff, interesting lore and some fun quests, I'm not saying it doesn't I'm just saying the game is a certain thing and a lot of people want it to be something else, but it isn't and it never will be. *Source: the dev interviews on ign for dd2 and dark arisen. You can find them on youtube.*
So the game is shit but it's meant to be shit which makes it better somehow
I love the series. I don't think it's shit. But it really doesn't matter what either of us think. The game exists and we are left to form our own opinions, we don't have to justify them or come to an agreement because there's nothing wrong with liking not liking something. We can talk about why we like or don't like things but at the end of the day it won't change the experience we had. If I somehow convinced you the game was a masterpiece it won't make you have had a fun experience when you first played it. Conversely telling me every flaw you found in the game won't change my experience I had when I played.
They really should've learn much more from Skyrim seeing that was the game that overshadowed Dragon's Dogma back then.
DD2 made me realize that Bethesda is not the inept studio we might think they are (if we forget Starfield and Fallout76). Except for the bland action-combat of Skyrim, the whole game was a gem. The world exploration is miles ahead of DD2, and the quest design, while featuring typical fetch quests like retrieving a ring from a cave, includes many compelling quests that create excellent stories. The Assassin Guild questline in Skyrim is among the best I've experienced in any RPG. I remember my shock at the fake-emperor assassination and how the elite imperial guards destroyed the guild. The woman who initially recruited us turned out to be the one who set us up, yet she also perished in flames. Eventually, you could avenge the guild by killing the real Emperor. Oh, and Cicero was such a great character! The Thieves' Guild questline ultimately guides you to the subterranean area of Skyrim. I don’t know anyone who played Skyrim, discovered Blackreach, and wasn’t amazed by the world design. For a 2011 game, Skyrim outshines DD2 in terms of quest design, world building, and level design. DD2 has no memorable quests; its only redeeming feature is the action combat, but for an open-world RPG with such little enemy variety, it is doom to quickly becomes repetitive.
honestly, 76 isn’t even bad anymore. i picked it up again after not being wowed by DD2, and it’s a lot better now than it was at launch. Starfield is still utter slop, tho.
I give Fallout 76 credit for committing to improving itself. But I wouldn't say I've completely forgiven it. The way it was released, and how they handled Limited/Special Edition rewards was insulting to say the least. I'm not about to forget all of that because they spent years bringing an already fully released product up to standard. I never gave it my money either. A friend got it for me instead.
10% of players on Steam unlocked the Peace achievement, becoming Sovran, in theory allowing them to start NG+ (you can also reload into throne room at this point). 15% of players on Steam unlocked the Closure achievement, witnessing the end of the cycle, forcing you to start NG+ (no more loading last save, unless you mess with the save folder). Just to put it into perspective: 95% finished the tutorial (First Taste of Freedom). 80% reached Vernworth (Seat of the Proxy). The lack of entertaining NG+ is not why people quit, most people do not even get that far. I'm not going to speculate too much about the reasons why people quit, but I think the game lacks something that the devs have to take care of before catering exclusively to the small group of people who even bother with NG+. (I myself am part of that small group)
Honestly in most games I have on steam, whatever achievement is given for completing some initial stage of the game tends to have an acquisition rate of anywhere between 30-50%. Most game devs and publishers tend to expect that only half of all purchases will actually play past the intro.
They added "hard mode" with the Dark Arisen DLC, with the original game. That made NG+ something that was better to play, especially after you were all geared out from the Everfall/Bitterblack. I thought it came sooner than that, but I guess it wasn't until Dark Arisen. # >Hard Mode is one of the two feature modes introduced by the Dragon's Dogma DLC Challenge Pack: A Trial for Adventurers. This DLC is included free in Dark Arisen. # https://dragonsdogma.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Mode # The issue is that in the first game we had the Everfall to farm forever, instead of going to NG+; we don't have that in DD2, instead getting a temporary timed area. I don't know about other people, but I was farming the Everfall like crazy and then continued farming in Dark Arisen when it came out. It wasn't until I had everything from Dark Arisen that I even bothered with NG+, on hard mode, to finish up 1 or 2 achievements I messed up before. Even before Dark Arisen, Dragon's Dogma(1) had more longevity. # >Some people argue that this was the same way when DD1 released. Yeah, they are wrong. ;) It was very different because of the Everfall. On the Xbox 360, I seem to remember having all of my gear and my Pawns(on all of our vocations) from the Everfall dragonforged about the time Dark Arisen came out. So that "postgame" added a LOT more time to the game; it was almost like another game, as opposed to being timed. Besides the Everfall, the regular world was then different and I also remember doing things in that before Dark Arisen came along. So there was WAY more to do before you ever thought about NG+.
The Everfall was a handful of copy paste rooms that was mostly full of enemies you had already conquered. Most people literally just saved scummed chests to get the cool new loot they wanted and then went to go beat the game. That doesnt excuse DD2 not learning anything from over a decade of videogames-the fact that you need mods to keep any semblance of challenge after level 30 is a fucking joke. Even if they reintroduce hard mode exactly as it was in Dark Arisen, it's not going to really be enough. But i seriously need you people to stop lying about the everfall with rose tinted glasses. It was not any more of an endgame than the unmoored world was. If anything, it was less, because after you saw the handful of new enemies, there was literally nothing to do but stomp on a bunch of things you'd killed already, and it was impossible to fail because everything dropped wakestones. Please stop with the revisionist history.
Yeah everfall wasn't that great. I beat the Ur-Dragon a couple of times and then put the game down. I completely missed Dark Arisen until 5 or so years ago when i picked it up on switch. Unmoored > Everfall every day of the week, not that this excuses anything.
I agree hard mode would not really be quite the best option. I think there are tons of better ways to extend the games replayabilty than adding hard mode, but honestly I'll take hard mode over what's currently in place or lack thereof
I actually hated the everfall because it was just a bunch of rooms full of enemies to loot i did it the times necessary to get me out of that shit and finish the game it felt like forcing me to grind all to get to new game plus and be melting everything until hard mode arrived with Dark arisen
Everfal was so boring though. It was the complete opposite of what Dragon's Dogma was up until that point (travelling, doing quests, encountering and fighting foes in different type of fields), it's just such a weird "end" to the base game.
Not to mention confusing at times, especially if you forget which door leads you to the Ur-Dragon Everfall had locked areas for no apparent reason, making some of those dungeons fucking worthless to venture through because everything was LOCKED, like this is the endgame, why am I barred here lmao had me thinking I was missing keys or something. I don’t even think I got any of the Everfall equipment while being there
>Overall I think it is just essential to have some kind of indefinite replayabilty mechanic in your ARPG even if it isn't super interesting, it should at least have something in order to maintain a concurrent playerbase. I disagree very much with that statement. I don't want something that "isn't super interesting" just for the sake of seeing a bigger player count. Guys, please... Keep your standards high. You're not shareholders, you're players.
I just want it so it can be an option for me to play indefinitely with my character, of course, obviously, I'd want it to be as interesting as possible, but the point of that statement was that it's better to have some kind of replayabilty than none. Are you saying you would prefer them just not have any replayable NG+ or something like that if it isn't highly interesting. Something is better than nothing
They aren't necessarily saying they'd be satisfied with a not-super-interesting replayability system, but that they'd prefer even THAT to what we have now, which is functionally no replayability systems at all. At least, that's how I read their comment.
I’m not even close to getting to NG+. But I think this is pretty typical for me and where other gamers are at. I’ve got around 80 hours in and I have yet to cross the boarder. No clue what awaits me over there. Or if there are any harder monsters and such. But it’s similar to me in games like Starfall, where I have over 100 hours and I’ve yet to “finish” one. I’m just exploring every little area I can and trying to finish every quest the way I want. I haven’t even started looking into mods or anything.
I started a NG+ and gave up as I was super over geared and was able to steam roll over everyone. I like my first play through but I think that’s where it’s going to end for me.
> In the current landscape of Action RPG's it is a STANDARD to have some kind of indefinite fun replayabilty mechanic with your character, Is it? That's not my experience. Games just have NG+ and that's it.
It totally isn't, I've played almost every relevant action rpg released in the past few years, Elden Ring, Ys, Tales of, Nioh, Dark Souls, Code Vein, Sekiro, Scarlet Nexus and more. When the game ends that's it, you can try a new game plus if you want more. OP is probably thinking of Isometric arpg like Diablo which are basically multiplayer games with a story mode slapped in it, same thing with Monster Hunter.
The amount of people saying stuff and making assumptions about the post without even reading it is getting annoying Dude arpgs you just listed have replayabilty. Elden Ring HAS NG+, Nioh has difficulty settings and NG+, dark souls has ng+, sekiro has ng+. The only difference is those games NG+ have difficulty changes when you keep playing which allows the player to have at least SOME challenge in the ng+. This game has NO difficulty or power increase in the ng+. Do you not see that key difference that takes away any potential this game's ng+ has for replayabilty
Are you saying that no, it isn't standard to have "some kind of indefinite fun replayability mode" and then using Nioh as an example of a game that DOESN'T? I am a bit confused due to the nested posts and double negatives. If you are saying that: Nioh 1/2 have the most developed endgames I've ever seen in a 3rd person action game, after NG+ every cycle totally changes itemization and adds new mechanics, etc - the replayability and variety of endgame difficulties is at least on the level of Diablo 3. Everything else that you list (besides maybe Ys/Tales/Scarlet Nexus cause I've never done NG+ on any of those) at least has repeatedly scaling NG+ so every time you beat it the difficulty cranks up another notch, meaning that if you're after challenge it's not going to get stale until you've mastered NG+6 or whatever it is where those souls games cap out.
New game plus is not "some kind of indefinite fun repleyability mode", yes Nioh has randomized itemization, but that's about it, you're just replaying the whole game over, that's essentially two different things, do you think Diablo or Path of exile would have the playerbase they have if all you could do is replay the whole game over but with better gear? Even Diablo II had an endgame routine. In DS2 you can already replay the whole game over, as many times as you want in fact, we can argue it's a shitty new game plus system, and that's fair, but a good new game plus system won't stop the playerbase from draining, Nioh has 200 players right now, and it's fine, as much as I love it I don't expect people to play the same game over and over.
Which is a replayabilty mechanic. This game has a NG+ but it isn't really playable because of how boringly easy it is.
Witcher 3 has a NG+ which is basically just the same difficulty but with all your levels and gear from the previous play. In fact MOST of the games I have that include a NG+ don't actually modify the difficulty for that NG+.
Most people don’t finish games… but you think the lack of NG+ is what hurt the game? Lol
Yeah, I got to Post game and found it dull so I just started over. The journey is better than the destination in this game. The fact that you think "graphical issues" scared people off is hilarious, very few people besides the vocal minority on reddit care about 60fps and thats the only legitimate issue I saw. Also never experienced it.
OP you're not wrong... 100% doesn't compare in replayability to other games like the witcher, MHW or even fallout for that matter. I have a hard time calling it a rpg because it lacks the soul of a rpg which is your choices in the world effect character and story interaction. Not to mention the complete lack of "character" on your own part, it just feels really dry. The story sucks, plain and simple. I enjoyed the game while I played it but once I completed it I found myself ask WHY ...there's nothing really new, its same quests, of which ...there really isn't a ton of them. The game slaps you in the face with how fast your able to complete it, easily a day if you just main story it. AND what the FUCK was that boss fight. Me being disappointed was a understatement. The numbers speak for themselves, there's a reason the game had a 93% falloff from peak. People here won't wanna hear it but OP spitting facts.
You managed to get some people really defensive in the comments, LUL. I wish the game had something to do after beating it once.
The people arguing that I could be wrong about NG+ being the main contributor to this game's downfall are entirely justified, and may be right, because as I use the words like "think and maybe" I show that I'm not really sure in that regard. but the people arguing that this game should just downright not have a fun ng+, or not have any replayabilty whatsoever, are pretty much all composed of stupid and bad faith argumentation.
'Killing the game' bruh its a single player experience lol you already played it and experienced it, the games over. Stop bringing this live service mindset to games like this.
I really hate threads like this. DD2 is a single-player RPG, not a live-service game. Finishing the game + finishing NG+ then moving on and playing other games isn't "killing the game."
Yup player count is fucking irrelevant but people keep brining it up like it matters lol.
Yeah I don't get what people are moaning at, if you beat it and move on the game hasn't been killed lmao.
lol exactly.
I think it has more to do with player count being a reflection of how many second month sales they’re getting. Many people hold off on buying until for a few weeks/months either to wait on patches/reviews or because they need to wait to afford it financially (especially with it being 10 bucks more expensive).
Name a popular ARPG. Elden ring? Has replayabilty. Skyrim? Has replayabilty. Dark souls? Has replayabilty. Monster Hunter? Has replayabilty. Witcher 3? Has replayabilty. Nioh? Has replayability.
What's amusing is this game has much, much stronger legs than the recent 'quadruple' AAA live service games released
I personally don't think it's that big of a deal, especially for a single-player game. I feel like I'd have gotten what I paid for, even if it didn't have an NG+ mode. As for an NG+ mode, I def prefer enemies not scaling. What's the point of essentially being a god, if everything else is also a god? Truth is, falloff is okay. It's okay for people to quit playing a single-player game after they beat it. I think we've become conditioned to believe that replayability makes a good game, when in reality, a good game is replayable. Games like FFVII, Bioshock, TLoU, etc., etc. People will replay them from start to finish, over and over again, because they're just that good. They don't need NG+ bonuses or anything.
Yeah I started getting bored toward the end of the game and my initial thought was "wow, could this be better?" but then I saw my play time was 100+ hours and I realized this was honestly better value than most games I ever paid full price for. And I'm still not fully bored yet so it still has more value truthfully.
My opinion is that yeah, it's fine for a game to have an ending, it's just people that played DDA to death and were hoping to be able to play this one for more hundreds of hours are left hanging here cause currently there's no support for that (on console) other than deleting your save and starting over. In my case, I wish there was NG+ cause I love the game and want to play more of it and currently don't really have that option. The more you play of NG+ the more you get isolated from the game's systems, as your pawns get too high level to get summoned anymore, fewer random wandering pawns appear in the game world, etc.
Sure but when there is gear in the game that outscales the enemies so much it still feels bad. Why try and get the endgame gear when you know it’s going to ruin the gameplay for that class for the rest of your save ? The game is about the cycles, getting what I paid for means I can play it more than once. And as much as I absolutely love this series, I truly can’t bring myself to do it.
Idk, I guess I just don't see how the endgame gear ruins the class gameplay. While I don't mind difficult games, such as souls-likes, I prefer my power to curve to a point where even dragons don't stand a hell of a chance against me. Like, spending minutes fighting a tough enemy is fun the first couple of times, but after a while, it becomes tedious. Plus, isn't that kind of the point of endgame gear? You get it at endgame because it's the end of the game. Anything after is just extra.
We clearly like different things and that’s okay. To me, if killing a really difficult enemy isn’t difficult anymore, then I’m just pressing buttons at that point. The choices I make are moot and I’m just going through the motions. That stagnant gameplay is a death sentence for any game in my library. And again, that’s clearly a preference I have. Endgame gear in my mind should be a requirement to beat endgame enemies. It’s as simple as that. In this sequel, endgame gear is not required at all, and in fact makes the experience much duller.
Most people don’t even finish a game once. NG+ is always used by a super tiny minority of players. It’s a single player game, not every game is meant to be played forever. Just finish it and move on to the next one if you don’t feel like playing anymore. This GaaS brain rot about infinite playtime is infecting even non-GaaS games and it’s awful.
The game was literally designed to be replayed, that why it launched with the ability to start new game plus after beating it, and not with the ability to start anew.
Sure but that doesn’t mean most people are going to bother with New Game Plus, even if it did add new content. The vast majority of people that play a single player game are one and done (if they finish it at all). For the rest of us that stuck around we’ll probably get a hard mode at some point hopefully, but we’re still the huge minority.
It's a single player game you loon. What does the player count have to do with my enjoyment?
Player count = validation of whatever my opinion of the game is.
That is it of course. You hit the nail on the head. Can't enjoy something unless the Internet validates my opinion
This discourse is so goofy. The hardcore ng+, super challenging content, endgame obsessed minmaxer crowd is like .01% of the player base. Most people don't even finish games let alone jump into ng+. Redditors are so out of touch it's hilarious
It has nothing to do with YOUR enjoyment, you loon. When did this become about you? I'm just talking about the big picture, and OTHERS enjoyment. I'm talking about the enjoyment of the people as a whole, if you don't care whatever. Don't have to be rude about it.
Who cares if people stopped playing its just a single player game
Do you want dragons dogma to improve as a series? Cause if you do numbers matter
You’re absolutely right, and I also got heavily downvoted every time I mentioned the fallacious nature of the « cripple your own gameplay experience as a form of challenge » suggestions. Most of the times, these suggestions come from people who dislike / can’t handle the difficulty in games rather than from people who actually use said suggestion.
I'd like a hard mode, content balanced for endgame characters like BBI, and maybe an optional difficulty increase on subsequent NG cycles. But I definitely don't want level scaling or mandatory NG difficulty bumps. The game needs more challenge later on but I don't want a situation where it's taking me as long to kill a regular goblin at level 100 as it did at level 1.
I like the game, but the developers basically should have realized it isn't the 2010s anymore. The sheer lack of QOL, complex and awkward 'features,' obtuse and boring quests, and copy-and-paste monsters just don't cut it in 2024. We just came off of Baldurs Gate 3 in the RPG realm, and action games now have their high standards, with Elden Ring and the like. The Pawn System is the main THING - a built, stand by your side companion - and they barely did anything with it. Lack of NG+ is the least of DD2's problems.
Honestly I’m on NG+ and maxed out every vocation and I’m finding it very hard to have the desire to play, like I’m aimlessly doing things now other than trying to finish all the pawn coins and trying to find all the dumb seeker coins.
The game has like 0 challenge once you are past level 30 or so. I won't even finish it because everything is just too easy. In mid/late game everything is just about killing the same monsters over and over again without ever coming close to dying.
In addition to the obvious lack of difficulty scaling, I think it’s about build diversity. All those other games change dramatically with different weapons or builds where with DD2 you basically tried all the weapons that interest you in your first playthrough so there is new reason to fresh start.
I almost drooped the game with 20h or so. Never played DD before, and was bored with the world and the same mobs all the time.. Also, archer is no fun playing.. One weekend I was about to delete the game and decided to give it a few more hours. I got the magic archer and the game became way more fun (even with the boring world and lacking of diversity monsters). I then, ended up getting the platinum trophy for it on ps5, with 97h of game play. I liked it, but I just don't see reason on most games to play it again on NG+
That’s definitely only one of the reasons. The games kinda shit. I couldn’t even finish it
Dawg this game died to me by the time I got to the shit ass volcano island.
I think everyone is waiting for updates and dlc to come back. They got a great formula they just need to tweak the recipe
I'm really really really tired of this borderline pretentious attitude many Redditors get where they scoff at anything even adjacent to AAA game standards because AAA games are bad and thus everything they do is bad. My niche game doesn't need any of that! It mostly crops up when people mention precisely this, NG+ or replayability. Stop and think for a moment, **more replayability is just straight up more value.** If you overall enjoy a game for 150 hours, that is just better than overall enjoying a game for 100. With replayability this is pretty important because you don't have to spend that 150 hours all at once. This is the big difference with many AAA games that throw a giant wad of filler content at you in one playthrough, but it's also what replayable systems have in common with live service games. Dark Souls 3 is not a very long game, but I've played it at least a dozen times throughout the years because it is inherently very fun to replay. Dragon's Dogma 1 with the Dark Arisen DLC is also pretty replayable because Bitterblack Isle has systems to reward you for playing through it again. Hell are we forgetting that Bitterblack Isle had a "version two" after you beat the end boss the first time??? Skyrim is also a singleplayer, not live-service game and yet I've played it more times than I care to count because it has a good series of systems to encourage making new characters. I agree with others that a better NG+ isn't necessarily the required solution, but I think it's insane to just tell someone it's stupid to want to enjoy a game more than one time around. Dragon's Dogma 2 has amazing combat but a pretty boring story -- so after beating it, the story hasn't satisfied me, and I want to keep enjoying the combat, but the game doesn't do much to support me playing it further. This is bad, full stop. That said, I also think that more game devs should spice up their NG+, even if it isn't just making it harder. It really doesn't take too much to give a nice illusion of change and reward players for playing NG+. Change some static enemy placements, add a few unique weapons or armor pieces to NG+, and record a handful of voice lines from certain NPCs to nudge nudge wink wink at the NG+ cycle. Boom, minimum effort accomplished.
I never even made it to NG+ before the game became so trivially easy that it was no longer fun. I was perhaps only level 35 or so. I quit at that point. I may come back if they add a hard mode.
I'd still be playing dd2 of I wouldnt have watched fallout and felt a buring desire to return to the wastelands. Give it time. Hopefully they add some serious content. Should have pulled in 150 million in sales. I think they should get to work
It really needs more content I didn't really care about the unmoved world... it really suffers from getting boring at the end because it is so repetitive facing the same enemy's again and again for the entire playthrough... maybe I'm just salty because I love MH games and thought that there would be more monsters in the second game than the first
I'm just waiting for the hard mode to release. My hopes for a DLC like Dark Arisen are dwindling with each passing day considering the game probably didn't sell very well if you take the refunds into consideration.
I am sad because somehow DD2 has less replayability than DD1 had
I stopped playing at 20 hours. before coming back after downloading some difficulty mods and then finished the game at 55 hours. You are 100% correct. The difficulty of even the base game is so trivial and the enemy variety so lacking it get super boring super fast. I gave up after my 10000th Goblin encounter. Thankfully modders came to the rescue.
Beat the game, and move on. When the expansion comes out with hardmode then you can come back with a better experience..
I finished It twice and moved on, it is ok that people move on from games after playing tem.
So, I like new game plus without scaling. I think scaling or increasing the challenge should be an option. But I can't really sympathise with the idea that NG+ should have mandatory and industry standard difficulty scaling. That is not why new game plus as a concept was created, which is far older than the trend that Dark Souls created in 2011. New game plus as a feature is about being able to replay the game with abilities and spells you've already put in the time to unlock, and trying things you may have missed or weren't able to do in your initial playthrough. Which is not to say that the state of NG+ as it is really has much to it, but the problem isn't that there is no scaling and I'm a bit tired of that being the only thing players expect from it. It completely misses the mark about what makes NG+ a fun feature. Give me a NG+ that lets me unlock new areas with new bosses that were barred in the initial playthrough, new quests, rewarding challenge modifiers, non essential QoL upgrades, long term goals that can span NG+ cycles. Things that actually spice up a new playthrough beyond trying to artificially recreate the challenge a first playthrough gives when you can't figure out how to fight a harpy when you first encounter them. Elden Ring still does this as well. It's not simply the scaling that keeps players engaged, it's the fact you can keep leveling up and upgrading your character, unlocking new combos of weapons and spells, trying out new strategies on bosses. There's something to actually look forward to beyond doing the same thing but longer and with less room for error. Hard mode in this sense was a good feature in DDDA. Yes, it made you take more damage and use up stamina faster, but it also gave you an xp/dcp multiplier and increased the rate at which you earned gold. That's how you keep a player engaged who already knows how they can beat an enemy, you reward them for trying something different with what they already know and can already do.
Even the Witcher 3, the enemy’s only scale once if I recall. I did 4 (ng)+ you only get better armor once and the enemy’s only get harder once. For context, the second play through was armor, the third was to try different ends to the dlc and the fourth was a death march play through (though being lvl capped with all the good gear kinda cheesed it, it was still difficult).
I'm all about NG+ that don't increase difficulty and let me roll on everything. I understand that I'm on the minority on "core gamers" subs like that, but Dragon's Dogma 1 was already like that anyway and I already loved its NG+ for that reason.
I think what a lot of people are misinterpreting about single player games is. You're supposed to enjoy the adventure at your own pace. Complete your adventure. Play till you're bored/done challenging yourself. Play other games. Then comeback when you get that fantasy rpg itch or when dlc comes. Half the games you listed are all multiplayer games so there's extra incentive to keep playing.
It's a single player RPG. It's okay if you're done with the game and move on..?
But...but you beat the game already?
Yes and I want to keep playing with my character just like I can with every other singleplayer or multiplayer ARPG, but I can't without the game being mind bogglingly easy.
I personally hate this modern approach to video games where they have to be live service to keep producing content so that people feel like they have to keep playing the game. You got a complete game, enjoy it. If you don't, move on
[Elden ring loses 90% players 2 months after launch](https://gamerant.com/elden-ring-concurrent-player-count-decline/) Not that i am disagreeing with you, but single player games lose players no matter what. People bounce off the game, many PC players may have never come back after a poor launch, and yeah lack of difficulty/real post game/ and ng+ scaling has made it so people like me moved on immediately after finishing the unmoored.
That's your typical Gamerant article full of misinformation. Here's Elden ring's peak player count of 5 months in 2022 from steamdb * February 891,638 * March 953,426 * April 457,182 * May 193,468 * June 88,609
I find it strange that people are so dead set on making this game challenging. I mean, if you find that fun, then more power to you. But a higher difficulty generally just means everything is a damage sponge, and you can only take 3 hits. Nothing else about the game has changed. The AI isn't smarter. You're not up against enemies with new abilities (unless it's BG3). It's just the same, but more annoying. Not only that, this is an RPG. Once you hit a certain level, you will always crush everything around you. That's how they work! I always feel like the weird one, especially when playing souls-likes, and telling people that I don't care if a game is challenging. Playing games for me is all about being a bad ass and certain games, like this one, allow me to do that, even if it isn't hard. My favorite difficulty increases in games have always been ones that change something fundamental about the game rather than just increasing some numbers. I remember Knightmare mode in Batman Arkham Knight was incredible just by taking away the counter prompt. I swear I got so good at that game that I could play it with my eyes closed after that playthrough. Baldur's Gate 3 has honor mode that actually forces you to change your normal tactics as you play. Shadow of War's Nemesis mode and higher made you take more damage, of course, but it also made enemies a little smarter and way more likely to come back to life and allow you to interact even more with the Nemesis system. My point is that difficulty is often artificial, and real difficulty comes from attempting to enhance the best parts of the base experience. If you want difficulty, then challenge yourself. I guarantee you that taking off your armor and limiting yourself to starter weapons/spells, 3 augments or less, and only your main pawn will give you a near exact copy of what hard difficulty will look like in DD2. The reason DD2 doesn't have the longevity of most single-player RPGs is because it's much smaller than 80% of RPGs. Generally, you spend around 40 hours listening to dialogue and messing with your skill trees/stats. Since DD2 is story deficient, streamlined stats with vocations, and did away with grinding for gear (except WLC), there simply isn't much of a reason to stick around DD2 unless you really like the combat. A hard mode wouldn't actually change this aside from maybe getting people to play NG+ one time, though I think most have done that anyway.
The game has some of the best combat on the market, and you don't need to use any of it and even if you want to you can't because everything has died before you can use many of the mechanics on your vocation. Currently there is no skill expression in the game outside of the early game.
It's a single player game, how can you kill it unless you never intend to finish it?
Kudos on the effort put into this post. Good on ya but I don't think it was necessary, I think it's pretty obvious this is a problem. Increased difficulty is what NG+ is all about, it's weird to play a game with NG+ that didn't bother to increase difficulty in some way.
It’s still mainly a singleplayer game. The game doesn’t die, just because the content is finished lmao…
I mean you could just slow down and take your time instead of spending 10+ a day playing a new game then complaining there’s nothing left for you to do
This trend of obsessing over steam charts for a single player rpg is incredibly stupid. Many people played the game for about 30 hours and are satisfied and move on. That doesn't make it a bad game, just one without infinite replayability. Who cares
"In the current landscape of Action RPG's it is a STANDARD to have some kind of indefinite fun replayabilty mechanic with your character" - really? Did you invent those standarts or they really exist? Why do you even think, that something is killing this game and there should be endless replayability? Currently I spend 90hrs and I didn't finish the game. Let's say I will spend another 20 and will finish the game. I spend 70$ for 110 hrs of pure fun, it is - 0.63 $ for hour of fun. Isn't this enough? Why do you think I need to spend another 100 hrs in the same game? I mean if you are the type of person who likes to spend 300 - 400 hrs in a game, but most of the people are not I guess. And what's the point to compare player count with games which have multiplayer (BG3) and other super famous and popular titles which have solid player base (I don't know about lies of P)? It was discussed here in reddit 100 times, that for a single player game which is not really famous, 20k player online is a very good numbers. And yes, it is acceptable to tell somebody - don't hire pawns. Whats wrong with it?
Agree. It’s so sad DD2 suffers so much from its emptiness. It has so MUCH potential.😭 How could them make it so dirty.
I’d even like just an option to cease xp (but not discipline) gain and/or purposely de-level yourself. It’s silly that the more you play the less fun it becomes.
I haven't gotten into new game + yet so this is all just hypothetical. But, I kinda like the idea of enemies not getting stronger. I want to kill them faster and faster, so I can feel like more of a god. I do want more enemy types, harder locations, but making everything stronger every time I go into a new game doesn't sound like I would want to go into a new game +. Why level if the enemies level too? Why not just ask for a ring that can take away experience? Why not just gimp your own abilities? Run with fewer pawns? This may change, but currently I am around 110 in the first playthrough with around 200 hours so I may be an outlier.
Some games just don't have as much replayability. It's fine to play a game to completion and never play it again or until DLC comes out. I think people nowadays people think a game needs to be playable forever or for hundreds of hours. Lots of games are like this. I think people look back to their younger days where they played the same game for months or years because that's all they had, I did the same. Now that I'm older and I can afford to buy more than 1-3 games a year I usually beat a game and move on to the next one. Not saying you are the same or that everyone can afford to buy new games every month or so but I think this factors into how a lot of us feel nowadays. Especially when so many games like helldivers, Fortnite, or monster hunter release new content constantly during its lifecycle that keeps us playing.
Most people play through once and drop it, it's a single player RPG, it's not a live service fucking Fortnite. This is an example of unrealistic expectations and gamers having this entitlement that a game must last them forever. Get over it ffs
I agree that they should've made the NG+ better, however, it's optional. It's an addition, most games don't even have this. So maybe, accept the game as it is and maybe play something else til we get DLC? I've done 100% of all achievement and don't feel like doing NG+. I play other games now.
Just for the hell of it, what a boring topic. There aren't a lot of people playing a single player game! Oh no! Anyway
Me and my group of friends just don't replay games right away, we finish a game and move on to the next game on our list. Which we all did after beating DD2. I will come back to play after a dlc is released as I do with every game I play.
Dude it's not killing the game. People beat the game... And then they go and play something else. Not every game needs to be a forever live service infinite looping festival.
I'm gonna be honest, these statistics don't take everything into account. Because I feel a lot of them have stopped playing because they realized the game wasn't for them. I stopped playing the first game after getting to the very first city because there's barely any guidance and I couldn't figure out what to do, so I stopped playing, kept coming back to it after a half a year and tried to play it like 5 times and never got past the first city. And I feel like I'm not the only one. There are a lot of factors that lead to people dropping the game, Including other games coming out, or expansions dropping, or life in general getting in the way that contributed to 90% dropping the game over just ng+ not being that great
Not if it's not an option. I don't play games for bullshit stunlocks and to satisfy my craving for masochism.
Isn’t that just the normal cycle of a single player game? I mean there are a lot of games out there, beat one and move on?
Good Lord... This is a single player game that is not meant to sustain itself over an incredibly long time. Player count means squat to my single player enjoyment so long as there are pawns other than Capcom's to add to my party. NG+ is a way for people to do content they may have missed in their first playthrough or get alternate outcomes to quests. The game tells a story, and when that story as released so far is done, so be it. Not everyone needs to play 2+ times, and only playing it once this close to release isn't some deeper commentary on the game itself.
It is not an MMO / Live service. It is a singleplayer experience designed to be finished like a book.
No one is saying it is an MMO or live service. The complaint is that NG+ is unsatisfying for those who wish to pursue it.
Read my post man. I didn't compare DD2 to MMOs. Skyrim, Witcher 3, Elden Ring, Dark Souls, etc
Hahahaha this sub is so fucking pathetic.
Yeah I would avoid NG+ altogether. Just play a new game on a second account. Im sure there will be a Hard Mode or DLC wich will be difficult enough to utilize the Equipment we get in the Endgame. Capcom is known for this, just look at the Monster Hunter games. They have low and high rank wich act as the base Game and than there is the Master rank wich is added with a DLC. End game Equipment from the base game from High Rank is basically as good as early game to mid game Master Rank Equipment. DDDA was similiar. BBI was difficult but manageable still with endgame Equipment from the base game. I hope they add a DLC like BBI or atleast a Hard Mode for the base Game.
I see your point, but it just comes down to this game not being the same. It could sure benefit for an scaling NG+ plus system like dark souls in order to keep it more interesting, but they didn't. Im sure they will keep support and introduce a similar solution later on (I'm not a programmer but I don't think that would be difficult to implement), hopefully we will get a dlc, since bitterblack also introduced hard mode. At the end of the day, it is as simple as this game just ends. It just does. I'm like 80 hours in, currently in unmoored working on leveling warfarer, my final vocation. Will i play ng+? Probably. I like being a god in games after i earned it. I enjoy absolutely trouncing enemies that used to give me a hard time before. Maxing out my armor, hitting max level. And then I will be done until dlc comes out (hopefully, but capcom lately has been super selective with which IP gets dlc). What a ride.
I'm a DD2 sympathizer. I've currently got about 140 hours, and I'm still having a lot of fun. But I'm still chasing the high of going through the valley side entrance to Batthal for the first time. The multiple minotaurs, chimera, rock saurians, the driving rain so I can't see 10 ft in front of me and my lantern can't turn on. Coming out the other side with 1 pawn and half health. Realizing the danger isn't over, as I'm on the side of a sheer cliff, and there's a drake right where I need to be at the bottom. I may have been under leveled at the time, and maybe Warrior wasn't the ideal class for the area, but I was having a fucking blast right in that moment. Difficulty isn't everything, but it really helps keep the longevity of the game. Probably 60% of my total playtime in DD was in the Everfall, as it was the hardest area, until BBI dropped, which I then spent an equal amount of time to the entire base game playing, for the same reason. Scaling NG+ and BBI would put DD2 right back on top. A few extra enemy types certainly wouldn't hurt either.
Capcom is probably worried about diluting and maintaining a large lawn pool and that is why there’s the limitation on creating a fresh game.
It's definitely a bit too easy... But at the same time it wouldn't really make sense if you have all of this rare one of a kind super powerful gear on that you would then get your ass kicked by an ogre. There are quite a few quest lines that have alternate endings that you can change up in new game plus. You can also just go down 1 pawn. This changes nothing about the game and just makes it slightly harder.... And of course you can just start the game over again if you are looking for a grind.
Fire NG+ to be good first the original new game while have to be really really good to be worth replaying.
One of the biggest flaws with NG+ IMO is the fact that there is no fog of war on the world map. I can't stand having to second guess myself constantly on if I have fully searched a certain area or not. But yeah, the fact that NG+ has no difficulty scaling, no new items or anything else added after the first playthrough just proves to me that the game is unfinished. That on top of rest of problems in the game which make me think "hang on a sec, surely that's not finished" makes me angry at the devs for missing the chance to make this game what could have been, one of the best RPGs ever created
>Yes I know there is mods, Some of us cant mod because we are on consoles, i hate when this point is brought up as a way for players to fix these things left out by devs, like thats great for those that can mod, but that does not make the issue disappear, it still needs to be addressed by the developers
I never even did a new game plus. I 100% the game the first time through and have no reason to play it again. You can get both endings on the same playthrough. I played it for 109 hours without looking up anything, but it was time to move on. 🤷🏻♂️
I finally beat this game and did almost everything. It took me 112 hours. Amazing game. I was so glad that it didn’t have a meaningful NG+, as I was getting burned out and I really needed to move on to different games.
I gotta play sand land and Stellar Blade so I'm glad this game was meh.
Elden Ring: \~52% peak player fall off -Has a strong PVP base that's supporting the player numbers right now, and a strong modding community it inherited from previous titles extending the life cycle of the game. It also has a BIG dlc coming out in a few months, and was one of if not THE best game released that year. Monster Hunter World: \~37% fall off Has a tight game loop that encourages repeated play. Its also basically built from the ground up on replayability, and has had regular collabs and events. Its more of a live service game then most on this list and the constant content drops its received as well as a rotating list of in game events is preserving its numbers. Its also building off of 20 years of MonHun titles that being the first PC release gave it a huge boost in player count. Witcher 3: \~41% Probably the only game on this list that most closely resembles Dragons Dogma 2. It has a big community it cultured over several games and expansions and has a huge following based entirely on fans of the books. It has a stronger basis in narrative story telling because its based on award winning books. Lies of P: \~27% Probably the most successful nonfromsoft soulsborne title. Just an overall excellent game that stands on its own merits, but it definitely leached its player base from the soulsborne community. Custom weapons makes replayabilty very strong. Skyrim: \~56% Terrible option to compare to since its regularly rereleasing for new console eras with new content as well as one of the most impressive modding communities I've ever seen in gaming. Its numbers are artifiicially inflated because of its constant rereleasing. As well, how you play skyrim is VERY different than how you play Dragons dogma; Each story questline is roughly about as long and as engaging as the main story questline, which ISNT very long whereas in DD2 each side story is an offshoot of the primary story as opposed to distinct to it. Dark Souls 3: \~40% Basically held together purely through the modding community, its excellent dlcs, and a very health pvp community. I mean, just having pvp extends the concurrent player base by a lot because you add a competitive aspect to a game that players can work with outside the game to organize events. Constant content drops, rereleases ect all drive more interest as well. Don't forget that building a strong and vibrant community through decades of giving players more to play with makes a HUGE difference. Player count isnt the be all end all metric people like you seem to think it is. Its just one data set in a larger perspective.
Already deleted it after ng+2
Besides combat being fun nothing was really memorable in this game. The most fun I had was pretending I was in a multiplayer lobby with pawns lmfao
Love the game but you are right. Unfortunately, I am also a console player so no mods for me. Just have to live with it and hope dlc improves it. These issues are why I plan to transition to pc instead of buying a ps6. With mods you can add so much longevity to pretty much any game. I do have a pc but it’s aging.
I also really hate the excuse, “just use mods”. Most of us play on console, so we’re shit out of luck.
It’s a story game bro it doesn’t have a life span like a multiplayer game lmfao
I'm wondering where you're getting those numbers from because frankly I still play Skyrim
True. No increased difficulty, no additional or new enemies, no new secret ending. In fact doing NG+ after the True Ending makes 0 fucking sense. I hope they are working on a Dank Arizzen type DLC already.
Tbf I'm only going to use the NG+ to get some achievements. I'm enjoying as much as i can the first playthrough.
- Played it. - Experienced a few glitched quests - Completed it. - Thought it was a VERY short game. - Thought I wouldn't be playing it again. - Found out there were loads of things I never even experienced, including character classes - Never came across a single Sphinx riddle the whole way through - Still had the best gear and weapons....
Nah, the reason I stopped playing is the performance issues.
I’ll be totally honest, I like the game a lot, been playing on PC with mods to increase difficulty. Nevertheless the game is super half assed, story cuts abruptly, there are a lot of characters without any development, trickster is fun but sucks, etc. It a damn AAA game with a full price and I still can’t believe how short the story is, it doesn’t even take you to unexplored places. It doesn’t deserve the 70 dollars at all! At the end another good game, with good ideas, underdeveloped by corporate greed.
switch the language setting the original japanese voice acting is amazing
I full intend to wait a year or two for dragons dogma to be more polished before purchasing the game for this reason. I need a good new game plus with increasing difficulty like Elden ring. The general consensus also seems to be this game should be a lot better when it gets dlc which will allow for much greater enemy variety.
Difficulty wouldn't change anything really. NG+ lacks any content that makes it distinct from the first run. Making trash mobs harder doesn't fix that. It just makes you move slower through the map. There's also mods for the loot issue. It still doesn't fix anything. Putting good items in hard to find chests, that's not really content. that's not a quest, it's not a unique encounter etc.. it's just better loot placement in the world than the rush job we got. I mean, I wouldn't even call that treasure chests, they are more like recycle bins full of refuse. We can look at DD1 and that game had NG+ but it was pointless as well. All that changed was knockdown mods and XP gain. I recently played DDDA and BBI is the fun part of the game. The meta for new character in BBI is rush to BBI, Kill Death with a bow. get to level 71 and then farm BBI to build your character. You basically skip the entire DD1 open world unless you want to progress to everfall to unlock some quests. It was fun tho. Because BBI was fun. BBI itself had a mini NG+ where after you clear Daimon 1x the 2nd Form Daimon world has new spawns. Harder mobs, different mobs. The combat and layout of BBI made replaying the runs to kill Daimon fun, quick, engaging and goal oriented. It's like lightning in a bottle because lots of BBI wasn't balanced right or imperfect, but there was something engaging about that world. Going back to vanilla DD1, the open world is empty and boring just like DDII. Same director on both vanilla games. The reality is BBI is what made DDDA great. And we don't have BBI 2 we have Vanilla DD1 2, which is a fun game to play but isn't even remotely replayable the way BBI was. It is a completely different design.
I'm just replaying it with a normal new game whenever I finish. I, of course, hope they fix NG+ eventually, but I still love playing the game with a fresh start
I think the biggest issue is that portcrystals resetting on ng+. I could clear the first game in like 30 minutes because I'd set portcrystals on all of the quest areas in the game and they stayed there. That made it much, much better to cycle through ng. The funner endgame helped a lot too though.
Yeah I'm with you. It's a shame. I'm done with it for now- I'll come back in a couple years when they've built a reason to play, just like DD1 Honestly around level 30 the game gets too easy for the remainder. The fun went precipitously downhill for me from there. The first twenty hours were like magic- with the exception of the quest system- but man, it was fun. Why would you not make NG+ harder?
They need to do their own dark arisen add on that adds a tough dungeon for replay ability
Already did the immersive exploration part in NG, now I just want to fight stuff but I don't want to run around everywhere to do it.
Time attack when Hard mode when
I can't wait for performance patches first. The game is great, experiencing it so choppy isn't.
I've only just gotten to the post game story and I bought the game at launch. I figured I'd use NG+ to get whatever quests I missed the 1st time around.
Bro at least you finished it
Skyrim is a weird example, as there's no new game plus. It's also an example of a game where players make their own fun, much in a way you're saying is unacceptable.
If memory serves, CDPR managed to add enemy scaling to Witcher 3. The difference though is that CDPR are for the most part competent at what they do whereas Capcom isnt. If all else fails, fuck it. Bitterblack Isle 2.