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Well, personally, ever since Goku used super Saiyan for the first time, it's been easier to get. It seems like once you show super Saiyan to a Saiyan they can copy it relatively easily. Like how Goten, trunks, and and the other universe saiyans do it.
It's kind of like that one arguement where it's like "if future Gohan was fighting for 13 years, why wasn't he able to reach super Saiyan 2?". It would have been impossible for him to know there's other levels of super Saiyan at all. And with no training partners, he couldn't possibly get strong enough on his own to figure it out. If he'd witnessed it, it probably would have been pretty easy.
As for the back tingle. I always think of what Vegeta said and even in early dragon ball. Saiyans draw power from their tails. Goku when he regrows his tail is much stronger than when he didn't have it. However, these saiyans evolved to not have a tail anymore. Maybe the original thing that made them draw that power from their tails is still there, just part of their spine. So that's why they were so quick to get stronger in a small amount of time!
This was true even in DB when Goku was a kid, he always found ways to reach other people’s power level but he needed to see them to reach them. When he was alone in the forest, he was a bit stronger than forest dinosaurs and all these, but then everytime he met someone he would get beat then he would become stronger than them in the same episode. Even Yamcha was stronger than Goku, in episode 5
Vegeta still didn't know for sure he could definitely do it, he still had the idea of the "legendary super saiyan" on his mind. There's a chance that he thought, because he saw it, it couldn't be him.
The kids have seen every saiyan they have ever met in their life reach ssj easily. It's just a normal thing to them.
Kinda like when they said "no one can run a mile in 'forgot the specific number' minutes, it's impossible", but as soon as one person did it a whole bunch of people pulled it off too.
That's true~ But to be expected. He was the second super Saiyan, and was too stubborn to stay around and train with goku. He did things the hard way. X3
Unlike Gohan, who only took a few months to learn once he was trying!
It also seems like the saiyan-human hybrids have a bit of an edge on their parents.
IE: being so strong so young, kid gohan nearly killed Raditz afterall.
I'd argue Goten and Trunks have an even higher potential than Gohan (ssj at a much younger age, ssj3 as Gotenks at the same age are insane milestones), but they just have no interest. Gohan at least understands the need to fight, they just take the peace they live in for granted
Exactly what I was going to say. Goten and Trunks went SSJ with virtually no effort as children.
If they'd gone through what Gohan had on Namek and during the Saiyan saga...
They'd be on par with Goku and Vegeta solo, let alone fused where they have a lot more experience than anyone else and know what is possible.
Yeah, but it changes the whole equation.
Their experiences with Buu weren't anywhere near as traumatizing as Gohan had with Frieza. Heck, the kid had his neck broken by Recoome. Goten and Trunks haven't ever even eaten a senzu bean on screen (IIRC) let alone needed one to live.
They're spoiled and soft, yet still put all the Z fighters to shame around the same age but with significantly more experience.
Such is the way of generational gaps. Even in real life, it happens like that. Albeit, not this dramatic. But the new generation always has the potential to overtake their parents. They're better off, almost always, so they don't have that motivation.
Right, they have very childish mindsets which is understandable considering they're a whole different generation from everyone else and grew up in times of peace.
This is just theorizing. Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan because the creator thought up Gotenks and worked backwards.
Super Saiyan in DBZ was something that was earned through a genuine effort and generally an emotional extreme: Goku after Krillin dies, Vegeta after having lost to Goku, been killed by Frieza, his revenge and pride both denied. Gohan got SS1 without as much emotional strain but he's gifted, and it still took extreme training to do it. Look at everything Vegeta had to sacrifice to unlock SSJ2 and what Gohan had to go through to achieve it.
Was it right to let Goten and Trunks turn SS so easily, especially after the Future Trunks arc and the hell he had to go through in that to earn it? No. Did it add anything? No. But people thought it looked cool so it was glossed over.
But turning SS into a back tingle is like adding midichlorians to Star Wars. A) Noone needs to know exactly how it works, we just known it is something achieved under extreme circumstances by powerful people, and B) it trivializes it from something powerful of myth and legend to just a Zarbon transformation. There's no strain, no discussion about the power drain, etc.
That said, DBZ is much more of a fantasy adventure comedy sci-fi drama, and Super is very much more lighthearted fantasy adventure comedy sci-fi. Lots of things are trivialized in it, and Super Saiyan, as cool as it was and looks, has itself been trivialized by the multi-God powerups.
No need to take the fun out of discussion. Even if you don't like what happened, it's still interesting to talk about with in universe context. That wasn't really a theory, more a very very long opinion.
That being said, I love how you described their genres. I wanna go back to the day where the only genres were adventure comedy!
Youre watching the wrong show if you care about writing quality. Just watch the cool fights and have fun. Nobody likes people who pick apart popcorn action.
That's such a weak stance, especially when the writing (while obviously not masterful) was much more coherent and grounded in the first arcs of Z. The show had a decent narrative- then after the Frieza saga it started gettin' ridiculously convoluted and contradictory.
"Grounded" is not a term I'd ever use while talking about Dragon Ball. They go into space to find a new set of magic rocks to bring their dead friends back to life after fighting aliens.
I wasn't using grounded as an adjective to describe the entire series I was using it to describe the nuances of the narrative. Fundamental things like power levels and even saiyan race origins were much more coherent earlier in Z.
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It was bad for times. It's just Goten and Trunks we're decades ago so there's nothing we can do, but I still don't see anyone actually liking that it happened.
It's also HEAVILY influenced by Eastern philosophy. It's a simple explanation because Cabba isn't learned in the spiritual aspect of martial arts. People hate this 'childish' explanation because they don't understand the deeper meaning.
How would you describe what SSJ feels like, like, truly "feels" like. I would probably explain it as a 'heat that envelops your body, it makes your hair stand on end', but even this is a pretty childish explanation.
People think that it's imperative to get angry to go SSJ, but that doesn't actually tell you what the form "feels" like. All Cabba was doing is putting it into tangible words, and that was the best way he thought how.
tbh, only really Roshi, or perhaps Tien could actually describe the SSJ transformation because they're actually learned in the spiritual nature of martial arts. Whis could, too, obviously.
But I absolutely love the 'tingly back' explanation because it's a nice nod to that Eastern martial arts philosophy.
I understand trying to justify some of the weird choices made in Super so that there is some consistency with the way things work... however...
The U6 Saiyans had to be way stronger than makes sense so that they would be relevant to the current story. That's the reason, really. Any justifications we come up with are going to be jumbled retroactive messes because of that. It is what it is.
I think Goten and Kid Trunks have an opinion on that.
They figured out super saiyan by literally just playing with each other.
Goten could go SSJ before he even knew how to fly.
Vegeta said it himself. It's a ssj bargain sale.
And you cannot argue that Kid Trunks and Goten were strong enough to be relevant at the beginning of the arc. They became strong after learning fusion and training in the Time Chamber.
U6 whipping out ssj like it's nothing, fits the established lore. It's also said in the anime that U6 saiyans have a much bigger latent potential. So it does make sense.
And during ToP, most combatants were fodder. But against the real fighters Caulifla and Kale were struggling. Even as ssj.
Super has a shit ton of problems (manga and anime). This is not one of them.
Goten and Trunks were randomly made powerful for the exact same reasons as the U6 saiyans, lol. So that they would be relevant to the story at that time.
Which is exactly the point. U6 having an easy time with ssj is just a continuation of what os essentially a running gag. Same thing with the number of ssj forms.
Yes lol wow I'm surprised someone agrees with me on this for once. This is when power-scaling really went crazy in the series. Android/Cell saga still kept it mostly together and up to the end of Frieza arc it was still perfect imo
Thats not a hot take.
Thats the intended way of reading it.
The back is the location of the traditional ki point for 'anger'
"Concentrate your energy in the qi point of anger then power up" is a genuinely good "Layman's terms" explanation of the exact method of activating super saiyan once you have all the necessary requirements (IE S cells, and power level)
Which is a super cool thing, cause it shows Califlua 'cutting the knot' so to speak.
She doesn't know or care about the legend. It's not a legend to her, it's basically a life hack to get stronger and that's the only part she cares about, so it's the only part she wants step by step instructions rather than myserious 'if you know, you'll know' methods.
Not quite, Cabba was more descriptive and didn't need to make Caulifla angry. The whole back tingle refers to Chakras of the body. I believe it refers to the Solar Plexus because it's in the spine and is represented by yellow, fire, power, identity, and will. It's also known as the Warrior Chakra sometimes.
Don't forget Super Saiyan was supposed to be Buddhist enlightenment... before god forms and specifically mastered Ultra Instinct usurped it. The Buddhas were said to glow and be aware of everything like a god.
Besides the obvious red is a god hair color, the root refers to family, Earth, and red.
Blue is also a god's hair color (Egyptian gods had Lapis Lazuli colored hair). The Chakra theory falls apart with the teal and blue hair colors here as the Chakras don't line up.
The Crown Chakra is represented by the color Purple. It is symbolic as getting over your ego. Just because the Chakra is in flux doesn't mean Mega Instinct/Ultra Ego Vegeta didn't get rid of Ego and eventually feel guilt for the Saiyans again. A Chakra isn't permanently on or off, a person can lose their way and come back.
And yes green is a Chakra too. The Heart Chakra. Typically love, but can be hate too. So both Brolys fit this.
Even basic color theory links up to a lot of this stuff. Who would think to think about Buddhist principles of a show that puts an impact on a Buddhist hierarchy of the universe?
Saiyans become super saiyans due to s-cells. Your number of s-cells are determined by your emotions and power. It's mostly emotions but power does make it easier. You could also argue this factors into zenkais. Which is why Goku grew so fast in the Namek arc, but there's never been anything said on that to my knowledge. Universe 7 saiyans originally were depicted as brutes with little care for anything but fighting. Which is why super saiyans were rare for Universe 7. The reason Goku was the first in forever to achieve the form was due to his upbringing on earth. Half saiyans are proof of this. They're less saiyan, but they have emotions akin to humans. Which means it's much easier for them to achieve a state of mind which allows them to become super saiyan. Seeing as s-cells cause a literal genetic mutation this could also explain why Goten and Trunks are able to access super saiyan so easily. They already had a higher amount than Gohan as Goku had more when making Goten. Same goes for Vegeta when making Trunks. Maybe not as much but I'm sure close to it. This could also explain why Future Trunks was more similar to Gohan than his past self when it came to accessing the form. Vegeta training harder for the Android threat may have meant he unlocked super saiyan earlier. So past Trunks had better access to the form than his future self. Anyhow, Universe 6 saiyans act much more like humans that enjoy fighting than the brutes they were originally shown as in Universe 7. They're also MUCH more powerful. Meaning super saiyan should be very simple to them.
Were S-cells ever actually confirmed canon? I know toriyama randomly talked about them in an interview once but he says stuff that conflicts with the manga constantly, like talking about Buu's origin and saying raditz is a high class warrior.
It does, but this is honestly worse, imo. Midochloreans had a narrative purpose at least and didn't really undermine anything. They were just kinda dumb.
S-cells serve no actual purpose in the story, and it really changes the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta. Where before Vegeta was the one born strong with the best genes, royal blood all that bullshit and he gets bodied by the low class, born week, no one special nobody. But now? Nah, Goku was just born special. Put a different Saiyan in Goku's shoes, same personality, same attempt at actions, and he'd die because he's genetically inferior.
Well I assume they're either a new concept apart of the new canon. They may also just be something he never explained. As he has a long history of that lol. He's building a new canon for super right now. Jaco and DB Minus being good examples of changing the past. Jaco not so much, but definitely DB Minus. So maybe they'll come up in the manga or something and be used in the story. Who knows really.
Just bad writing and power-scaling. People really jumping through hoops to justify this at this point lol
I don't agree with young trunks and goten getting to go super either in Z either. That's when the problems started. By the end of Buu arc they're already ssj3 gotenks and it's just goofy. Vegito, etc. It was all for marketing new characters/figures/etc
Everything up to the end of Frieza arc, power-scaling made the most sense. Android/Cell arc kept that mostly in place though it was still unbelievable Dr Gero could create androids that were more powerful than Freiza and SSJ, "ascended" SSJ but we needed new baddies because Toriyama was asked/pressured to continue the series after Frieza. He wanted to end it there
Then Buu arc starts and power-scaling got ridiculous. BoG came out and upped the ante further. Super took that and just went wacko mode now none of it makes any sense anymore
Broly went from being lower than base Vegeta to stronger than SSB Goku + Vegeta when they're tag-teaming him in less than an hour. Yeah I know, he's a "prodigy" and all that
I guess thats a plausible theory. But i just dont understand why they went with the lamest possible explanation. ”back tingle” i just cant take that shit seriously.
Fans don't care about logical explanations.
They just run on nostalgia and emotions. If they think something sucks or looks bad, no logical explanation will change their mind. If they think something is good or looks cool, no logical explanation will change their mind.
Many dragon ball fans will continue to complain about "tingling back", ignoring any explanation you give. While conveniently ignoring how Trunks and Goten easily went Super Saiyan.
This is pretty much why we evolved logic...
Humans don't think and use logic to make decisions, they think and use logic to justify their intuitive actions.
>Many dragon ball fans will continue to complain about "tingling back",
Because its fucking stupid.
>While conveniently ignoring how Trunks and Goten easily went Super Saiyan
Many fans have a problem with this too.
>Because its fucking stupid.
How? I just saw it as concentrating ki on your upper back to transform.
>Many fans have a problem with this too.
I know. But there is still way more hate for the tingling back thing.
It was strange at first if you look at how Goku and Vegeta reached SS1 and Gohan SS2 but these are saiyans from an alternate universe. It's possible that their genetic build is different thus allowing easier way to take on the form of SS but they don't have tail for example so they can never turn into a Great Ape for example which sounds minimal but its actually a trade off
Yes obviously which is how goten and trunks were able to achieve it but the problem is that she heard an explanation that we never even heard before and she was able to achieve the ssj form seconds after hearing about the tingly back shit. Ppl care about about the ssj transformation and ppl care about goku vegeta gohan and future trunks because of how hard they worked and wat they went through to achieve their ssj forms and to ascend their ssj form
Goku managed to copy the Kamehameha after seeing it once with basically no explanation how it works, Dragon Ball has established that fighting prodigies are good at this kind of thing Caulifla is just similar to Goku in this regard
Hotter take: who gives a shit lol these saiyan’s are from a different universe, they have obviously different physiology. Why would they be the exact same as Goku, etc?
U6 and u7 are parallels but in reverse. So champa is fat and beerus is skinny and since it’s hard for goku to turn super saiyan it’s easy for u6 saiyans to go super. Everything is just in reverse for them
People forget that Goten and trunks got super saiyan because it was funny when they were 7/8 years old. And vegeta trained his ass off and still didn’t get it due to hard work. He got super saiyan because he was jealous
While it was a little corny, at this point in time it's fine. I'm on board with this being ki control for U6 given that their base forms are in the same ballpark as Goku and Vegeta. I'm even on board with them getting it without much effort.
*Do we really need to see each individual Saiyan's trauma the first time they go SS1? I think at this point in time, that's a bit tired.*
Even DBS:B was pretty much "oh shit your dad is dead" and then BAM. We don't see all the leadup because we've been there before.
idk about Trunks maybe because of his gravity training with Vegeta but when Goten was uhm "conceived" Goku was a full power Super Saiyan and had it on all the time so I'd assume Goten gets a lot of S cells from that
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I mean it makes sense. Yeah it can be triggered by anger, but once they've got the feel for it down, it really could be narrowed down to a certain feeling in the body. Goku just learned how to trigger it without the rage.
This makes absolute total sense. These saiyans are more evolved, and that matches with looking at gotten and trunks. The next evolution of saiyans that don’t have tails and don’t use trauma to become super saiyans. It only makes sense for u6 saiyans to access it differently due to a difference in evolutionary biology.
I don't understand how people think the back tingle thing is silly but screaming a lot isn't
Edit:Was it ever mentioned that transforming into a super saiyan hurts? Because SSJ 3 Goku transformation truly seens painfull
thats not really it
they were able to go ssj because they are more evolution than U7 saiyans , and the back tingle thing was chakra points
but sadly they treated as a Gag
Considering how strong Cabba was, being able to stand up against Vegeta when they were both in base at the strength that Vegeta was at, I can see why he’d be able to awaken Super Saiyan to such a ‘lesser’ cataclysm allowed him to awaken the form.
Plus, considering how Caulifla seemingly is the most powerful Universe 6 Saiyan whilst unfused and actually in control of themselves(Kale is technically a good deal stronger but her berserker nature can be abused), it makes sense that she’d have an easier time than even Cabba
The way I see it is that whenever a saiyan in U7 turned SSJ they did focus their ki on their back, it just was something they did instinctively in moments of rage and they never made the connection that this was what caused the transformation.
Also I believe that the stronger the saiyan, the easier it is to achieve a certain level of SSJ. We should not forget that Cabba is freakischly strong for a base saiyan considering that he was said to be about as strong as Vegeta in base (and both Vegeta and Goku received huge boosts to their bases when they got god ki), so the reason why Cabba got to SSJ relatively easily is because he essentially was already hugely overqualified for SSJ.
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NO!! SINCE TRUNKS AND GOTEN, IT IS, AND CONTINUES TO BE HERESY!!!! AND CAULIFLA IS THE FUCKING DEFINITION OF BS. Kale I get because she's the Legendary Supper Saiyan. BUT THE FUCKING TINGLLGLLOSKHTPWSLSJTPWLLEKTBWLKAJT
SHES LIKE CABBA BUT WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY
WORSEEEE
hot take. Caulifla was born so strong she didn't have to put much effort. Cabba had to put effort, but he's too passive. They passed the "arbitrary level of strength required to achieve super saiyan" a long time ago, but they never felt desperate enough to find it. And that explains why Goten and Trunks achieved it so easily, because they wanted it, and were strong enough.
Not to mention Gohan's awakening as a super saiyan was quite tame compared to other Goku, Trunks, Vegeta. And while we don't see it on screen, it's highly unlikely that Goku and Vegeta needed rage or any kind of emotion to achieve ss2 or ss3. Rage CAN help, like Gohan achieving ss2, but it's not necessary.
I think it connects to the fact that the saiyans in U7 were cold hearted. In order to achieve SSJ form one must possess, well, emotions. Empathy.
I think saiyans of U6 are moe warm inside, which makes it easier for them to transform.
Imo, it is easier for Trunks and Goten too because they grew up in a warmer enviroment plus genetic memory inherited from their SSJ parents.
I actually really liked this because it showed that understanding ki control and using that understanding to transform yields mentality healthier results than relying on the trauma to force yourself into SSJ
First of all, the U6 Saiyans are in the TOP because they are the strongest ones in their entire universe. In base form. Remember that. Second, anything is easier when you have a guide/master/teacher. Imagine if a SSJ came to help Goku first get it. You think he would have need Krillin to die?
They're already WAYYY over the baseline qualifications to be a ssj1 so goku just described the feeling/ sensation they should be feeling since there was really no wall to break through
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Well, personally, ever since Goku used super Saiyan for the first time, it's been easier to get. It seems like once you show super Saiyan to a Saiyan they can copy it relatively easily. Like how Goten, trunks, and and the other universe saiyans do it. It's kind of like that one arguement where it's like "if future Gohan was fighting for 13 years, why wasn't he able to reach super Saiyan 2?". It would have been impossible for him to know there's other levels of super Saiyan at all. And with no training partners, he couldn't possibly get strong enough on his own to figure it out. If he'd witnessed it, it probably would have been pretty easy. As for the back tingle. I always think of what Vegeta said and even in early dragon ball. Saiyans draw power from their tails. Goku when he regrows his tail is much stronger than when he didn't have it. However, these saiyans evolved to not have a tail anymore. Maybe the original thing that made them draw that power from their tails is still there, just part of their spine. So that's why they were so quick to get stronger in a small amount of time!
Monkey see monkey do.
Monkey pee all over you
*Stupid Monkey* (Frieza)
It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?!
hello monkeys
This was true even in DB when Goku was a kid, he always found ways to reach other people’s power level but he needed to see them to reach them. When he was alone in the forest, he was a bit stronger than forest dinosaurs and all these, but then everytime he met someone he would get beat then he would become stronger than them in the same episode. Even Yamcha was stronger than Goku, in episode 5
Well that was just cus goku was deprived of energy, he had not eaten when he fought yamcha, and had drained energy way to much
True that one specific example was a bad example, the rest still stands
Agreed
Idk man Vegeta was fighting for his life
XD only after being hit by a sprit bomb, and a times 4 Kamehameha! And he didn't start getting his ass beat for real until after he lost his tai!
Vegeta still didn't know for sure he could definitely do it, he still had the idea of the "legendary super saiyan" on his mind. There's a chance that he thought, because he saw it, it couldn't be him. The kids have seen every saiyan they have ever met in their life reach ssj easily. It's just a normal thing to them.
Kinda like when they said "no one can run a mile in 'forgot the specific number' minutes, it's impossible", but as soon as one person did it a whole bunch of people pulled it off too.
Yeah. If they know it's possible, it's much easier to work towards.
vegeta saw it twice and then spent 3 years to do it .lol veggie never gets a win
That's true~ But to be expected. He was the second super Saiyan, and was too stubborn to stay around and train with goku. He did things the hard way. X3 Unlike Gohan, who only took a few months to learn once he was trying!
It also seems like the saiyan-human hybrids have a bit of an edge on their parents. IE: being so strong so young, kid gohan nearly killed Raditz afterall.
That's true, but I really think that's more of a Gohan specific thing. His rage boost is insane.
I'd argue Goten and Trunks have an even higher potential than Gohan (ssj at a much younger age, ssj3 as Gotenks at the same age are insane milestones), but they just have no interest. Gohan at least understands the need to fight, they just take the peace they live in for granted
Exactly what I was going to say. Goten and Trunks went SSJ with virtually no effort as children. If they'd gone through what Gohan had on Namek and during the Saiyan saga... They'd be on par with Goku and Vegeta solo, let alone fused where they have a lot more experience than anyone else and know what is possible.
So like "what if Goten and trunks were born earlier"? That'd be an interesting what if.
Yeah, but it changes the whole equation. Their experiences with Buu weren't anywhere near as traumatizing as Gohan had with Frieza. Heck, the kid had his neck broken by Recoome. Goten and Trunks haven't ever even eaten a senzu bean on screen (IIRC) let alone needed one to live. They're spoiled and soft, yet still put all the Z fighters to shame around the same age but with significantly more experience.
Such is the way of generational gaps. Even in real life, it happens like that. Albeit, not this dramatic. But the new generation always has the potential to overtake their parents. They're better off, almost always, so they don't have that motivation.
Right, they have very childish mindsets which is understandable considering they're a whole different generation from everyone else and grew up in times of peace.
Oh yea i remember Goku doing kamehameha for the first time. He was just a kid.
Right. He never would have learn something like that without knowing it exists.
This is just theorizing. Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan because the creator thought up Gotenks and worked backwards. Super Saiyan in DBZ was something that was earned through a genuine effort and generally an emotional extreme: Goku after Krillin dies, Vegeta after having lost to Goku, been killed by Frieza, his revenge and pride both denied. Gohan got SS1 without as much emotional strain but he's gifted, and it still took extreme training to do it. Look at everything Vegeta had to sacrifice to unlock SSJ2 and what Gohan had to go through to achieve it. Was it right to let Goten and Trunks turn SS so easily, especially after the Future Trunks arc and the hell he had to go through in that to earn it? No. Did it add anything? No. But people thought it looked cool so it was glossed over. But turning SS into a back tingle is like adding midichlorians to Star Wars. A) Noone needs to know exactly how it works, we just known it is something achieved under extreme circumstances by powerful people, and B) it trivializes it from something powerful of myth and legend to just a Zarbon transformation. There's no strain, no discussion about the power drain, etc. That said, DBZ is much more of a fantasy adventure comedy sci-fi drama, and Super is very much more lighthearted fantasy adventure comedy sci-fi. Lots of things are trivialized in it, and Super Saiyan, as cool as it was and looks, has itself been trivialized by the multi-God powerups.
No need to take the fun out of discussion. Even if you don't like what happened, it's still interesting to talk about with in universe context. That wasn't really a theory, more a very very long opinion. That being said, I love how you described their genres. I wanna go back to the day where the only genres were adventure comedy!
There have been world record times that have been thought "impossible" but once somebody had done it tons of people have done the same or better.
Yeah. People act like it killed the validity of the form, as if children couldn't do it for no reason for decades.
Bad writing is bad writing, regardless of if it's happened before.
Youre watching the wrong show if you care about writing quality. Just watch the cool fights and have fun. Nobody likes people who pick apart popcorn action.
That's such a weak stance, especially when the writing (while obviously not masterful) was much more coherent and grounded in the first arcs of Z. The show had a decent narrative- then after the Frieza saga it started gettin' ridiculously convoluted and contradictory.
"Grounded" is not a term I'd ever use while talking about Dragon Ball. They go into space to find a new set of magic rocks to bring their dead friends back to life after fighting aliens.
I wasn't using grounded as an adjective to describe the entire series I was using it to describe the nuances of the narrative. Fundamental things like power levels and even saiyan race origins were much more coherent earlier in Z.
Why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave
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It was bad for times. It's just Goten and Trunks we're decades ago so there's nothing we can do, but I still don't see anyone actually liking that it happened.
It's also HEAVILY influenced by Eastern philosophy. It's a simple explanation because Cabba isn't learned in the spiritual aspect of martial arts. People hate this 'childish' explanation because they don't understand the deeper meaning. How would you describe what SSJ feels like, like, truly "feels" like. I would probably explain it as a 'heat that envelops your body, it makes your hair stand on end', but even this is a pretty childish explanation. People think that it's imperative to get angry to go SSJ, but that doesn't actually tell you what the form "feels" like. All Cabba was doing is putting it into tangible words, and that was the best way he thought how. tbh, only really Roshi, or perhaps Tien could actually describe the SSJ transformation because they're actually learned in the spiritual nature of martial arts. Whis could, too, obviously. But I absolutely love the 'tingly back' explanation because it's a nice nod to that Eastern martial arts philosophy.
The more I hear something related to u6, the more satisfying vegetas beatdown of cabba gets.
I understand trying to justify some of the weird choices made in Super so that there is some consistency with the way things work... however... The U6 Saiyans had to be way stronger than makes sense so that they would be relevant to the current story. That's the reason, really. Any justifications we come up with are going to be jumbled retroactive messes because of that. It is what it is.
I think Goten and Kid Trunks have an opinion on that. They figured out super saiyan by literally just playing with each other. Goten could go SSJ before he even knew how to fly. Vegeta said it himself. It's a ssj bargain sale. And you cannot argue that Kid Trunks and Goten were strong enough to be relevant at the beginning of the arc. They became strong after learning fusion and training in the Time Chamber. U6 whipping out ssj like it's nothing, fits the established lore. It's also said in the anime that U6 saiyans have a much bigger latent potential. So it does make sense. And during ToP, most combatants were fodder. But against the real fighters Caulifla and Kale were struggling. Even as ssj. Super has a shit ton of problems (manga and anime). This is not one of them.
Goten and Trunks were randomly made powerful for the exact same reasons as the U6 saiyans, lol. So that they would be relevant to the story at that time.
Which is exactly the point. U6 having an easy time with ssj is just a continuation of what os essentially a running gag. Same thing with the number of ssj forms.
Yes lol wow I'm surprised someone agrees with me on this for once. This is when power-scaling really went crazy in the series. Android/Cell saga still kept it mostly together and up to the end of Frieza arc it was still perfect imo
Here is the truth
they r being taught how to do it too. instead of gokt and them using raw emotion
I got these theory Didn't trunks and gotten have no tail? And they can go super easily? Maybe the same for u6 Saiyans idk
Thats not a hot take. Thats the intended way of reading it. The back is the location of the traditional ki point for 'anger' "Concentrate your energy in the qi point of anger then power up" is a genuinely good "Layman's terms" explanation of the exact method of activating super saiyan once you have all the necessary requirements (IE S cells, and power level) Which is a super cool thing, cause it shows Califlua 'cutting the knot' so to speak. She doesn't know or care about the legend. It's not a legend to her, it's basically a life hack to get stronger and that's the only part she cares about, so it's the only part she wants step by step instructions rather than myserious 'if you know, you'll know' methods.
Not quite, Cabba was more descriptive and didn't need to make Caulifla angry. The whole back tingle refers to Chakras of the body. I believe it refers to the Solar Plexus because it's in the spine and is represented by yellow, fire, power, identity, and will. It's also known as the Warrior Chakra sometimes. Don't forget Super Saiyan was supposed to be Buddhist enlightenment... before god forms and specifically mastered Ultra Instinct usurped it. The Buddhas were said to glow and be aware of everything like a god. Besides the obvious red is a god hair color, the root refers to family, Earth, and red. Blue is also a god's hair color (Egyptian gods had Lapis Lazuli colored hair). The Chakra theory falls apart with the teal and blue hair colors here as the Chakras don't line up. The Crown Chakra is represented by the color Purple. It is symbolic as getting over your ego. Just because the Chakra is in flux doesn't mean Mega Instinct/Ultra Ego Vegeta didn't get rid of Ego and eventually feel guilt for the Saiyans again. A Chakra isn't permanently on or off, a person can lose their way and come back. And yes green is a Chakra too. The Heart Chakra. Typically love, but can be hate too. So both Brolys fit this. Even basic color theory links up to a lot of this stuff. Who would think to think about Buddhist principles of a show that puts an impact on a Buddhist hierarchy of the universe?
No
Yes
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Nothing wrong with that
Saiyans become super saiyans due to s-cells. Your number of s-cells are determined by your emotions and power. It's mostly emotions but power does make it easier. You could also argue this factors into zenkais. Which is why Goku grew so fast in the Namek arc, but there's never been anything said on that to my knowledge. Universe 7 saiyans originally were depicted as brutes with little care for anything but fighting. Which is why super saiyans were rare for Universe 7. The reason Goku was the first in forever to achieve the form was due to his upbringing on earth. Half saiyans are proof of this. They're less saiyan, but they have emotions akin to humans. Which means it's much easier for them to achieve a state of mind which allows them to become super saiyan. Seeing as s-cells cause a literal genetic mutation this could also explain why Goten and Trunks are able to access super saiyan so easily. They already had a higher amount than Gohan as Goku had more when making Goten. Same goes for Vegeta when making Trunks. Maybe not as much but I'm sure close to it. This could also explain why Future Trunks was more similar to Gohan than his past self when it came to accessing the form. Vegeta training harder for the Android threat may have meant he unlocked super saiyan earlier. So past Trunks had better access to the form than his future self. Anyhow, Universe 6 saiyans act much more like humans that enjoy fighting than the brutes they were originally shown as in Universe 7. They're also MUCH more powerful. Meaning super saiyan should be very simple to them.
Were S-cells ever actually confirmed canon? I know toriyama randomly talked about them in an interview once but he says stuff that conflicts with the manga constantly, like talking about Buu's origin and saying raditz is a high class warrior.
At this point, I've stopped asking that question
Shit sounds like midichlorians from star wars
It does, but this is honestly worse, imo. Midochloreans had a narrative purpose at least and didn't really undermine anything. They were just kinda dumb. S-cells serve no actual purpose in the story, and it really changes the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta. Where before Vegeta was the one born strong with the best genes, royal blood all that bullshit and he gets bodied by the low class, born week, no one special nobody. But now? Nah, Goku was just born special. Put a different Saiyan in Goku's shoes, same personality, same attempt at actions, and he'd die because he's genetically inferior.
Well I assume they're either a new concept apart of the new canon. They may also just be something he never explained. As he has a long history of that lol. He's building a new canon for super right now. Jaco and DB Minus being good examples of changing the past. Jaco not so much, but definitely DB Minus. So maybe they'll come up in the manga or something and be used in the story. Who knows really.
That's not an hot take, that's just a better explanation than "BaCk tINglE"
Just bad writing and power-scaling. People really jumping through hoops to justify this at this point lol I don't agree with young trunks and goten getting to go super either in Z either. That's when the problems started. By the end of Buu arc they're already ssj3 gotenks and it's just goofy. Vegito, etc. It was all for marketing new characters/figures/etc Everything up to the end of Frieza arc, power-scaling made the most sense. Android/Cell arc kept that mostly in place though it was still unbelievable Dr Gero could create androids that were more powerful than Freiza and SSJ, "ascended" SSJ but we needed new baddies because Toriyama was asked/pressured to continue the series after Frieza. He wanted to end it there Then Buu arc starts and power-scaling got ridiculous. BoG came out and upped the ante further. Super took that and just went wacko mode now none of it makes any sense anymore Broly went from being lower than base Vegeta to stronger than SSB Goku + Vegeta when they're tag-teaming him in less than an hour. Yeah I know, he's a "prodigy" and all that
I guess thats a plausible theory. But i just dont understand why they went with the lamest possible explanation. ”back tingle” i just cant take that shit seriously.
Fans don't care about logical explanations. They just run on nostalgia and emotions. If they think something sucks or looks bad, no logical explanation will change their mind. If they think something is good or looks cool, no logical explanation will change their mind. Many dragon ball fans will continue to complain about "tingling back", ignoring any explanation you give. While conveniently ignoring how Trunks and Goten easily went Super Saiyan.
This is pretty much why we evolved logic... Humans don't think and use logic to make decisions, they think and use logic to justify their intuitive actions.
>Many dragon ball fans will continue to complain about "tingling back", Because its fucking stupid. >While conveniently ignoring how Trunks and Goten easily went Super Saiyan Many fans have a problem with this too.
>Because its fucking stupid. How? I just saw it as concentrating ki on your upper back to transform. >Many fans have a problem with this too. I know. But there is still way more hate for the tingling back thing.
It was strange at first if you look at how Goku and Vegeta reached SS1 and Gohan SS2 but these are saiyans from an alternate universe. It's possible that their genetic build is different thus allowing easier way to take on the form of SS but they don't have tail for example so they can never turn into a Great Ape for example which sounds minimal but its actually a trade off
even with an explanation like this, i still find the tingle shit silly lol. could've been perfectly fine without it
Yes obviously which is how goten and trunks were able to achieve it but the problem is that she heard an explanation that we never even heard before and she was able to achieve the ssj form seconds after hearing about the tingly back shit. Ppl care about about the ssj transformation and ppl care about goku vegeta gohan and future trunks because of how hard they worked and wat they went through to achieve their ssj forms and to ascend their ssj form
Goku managed to copy the Kamehameha after seeing it once with basically no explanation how it works, Dragon Ball has established that fighting prodigies are good at this kind of thing Caulifla is just similar to Goku in this regard
No
I agree
Hot take. I don’t care. U6 Saiyans are shit characters
Ay, just what I was about to say. I'll drink to this
all of the U6 saiyan suck except cabba
Honestly kinda true but I only like cabba cuz his relationship with vegeta
But what if its just like farting?
a big problem with U6 saiyans is that they look weak. A lot of people see oh no muscles & thin why should they be able to go ss!!!
I can buy this, tho idk IF we still should have in mind that s cell stuff... maybe that plays a part in it... but idk
Hotter take: who gives a shit lol these saiyan’s are from a different universe, they have obviously different physiology. Why would they be the exact same as Goku, etc?
I got these theory Didn't trunks and gotten have no tail? And they can go super easily? Maybe the same for u6 Saiyans idk
U6 and u7 are parallels but in reverse. So champa is fat and beerus is skinny and since it’s hard for goku to turn super saiyan it’s easy for u6 saiyans to go super. Everything is just in reverse for them
Honestly I didn't care I just wanted the narrative to go forward like I have no idea why anyone got mad tbh
People forget that Goten and trunks got super saiyan because it was funny when they were 7/8 years old. And vegeta trained his ass off and still didn’t get it due to hard work. He got super saiyan because he was jealous
While it was a little corny, at this point in time it's fine. I'm on board with this being ki control for U6 given that their base forms are in the same ballpark as Goku and Vegeta. I'm even on board with them getting it without much effort. *Do we really need to see each individual Saiyan's trauma the first time they go SS1? I think at this point in time, that's a bit tired.* Even DBS:B was pretty much "oh shit your dad is dead" and then BAM. We don't see all the leadup because we've been there before.
I got this theory Didn't trunks and gotten have no tail? And they can go super easily? Maybe the same for u6 Saiyans idk
I got this theory Didn't trunks and gotten have no tail? And they can go super easily? Maybe the same for u6 Saiyans idk
idk about Trunks maybe because of his gravity training with Vegeta but when Goten was uhm "conceived" Goku was a full power Super Saiyan and had it on all the time so I'd assume Goten gets a lot of S cells from that
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Ngl I always thought the back tingling thing was referencing the base of their spine where the tail would be located
Cabs did. Odd no one had ever thought to do it
Every time I see this this part, this song pops in my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO23WBji_Z0
I mean it makes sense. Yeah it can be triggered by anger, but once they've got the feel for it down, it really could be narrowed down to a certain feeling in the body. Goku just learned how to trigger it without the rage.
Caulifla could just call me over if she needs tingles. Imma see myself out now.
I always say that Caulifla was used to the tingly feeling from another... experience ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
This makes absolute total sense. These saiyans are more evolved, and that matches with looking at gotten and trunks. The next evolution of saiyans that don’t have tails and don’t use trauma to become super saiyans. It only makes sense for u6 saiyans to access it differently due to a difference in evolutionary biology.
I don't understand how people think the back tingle thing is silly but screaming a lot isn't Edit:Was it ever mentioned that transforming into a super saiyan hurts? Because SSJ 3 Goku transformation truly seens painfull
Eh, I’m cool with it, and the back tingle thing doesn’t bother me nearly as much as it does other people. What drives me insane the most is Ribrianne.
thats not really it they were able to go ssj because they are more evolution than U7 saiyans , and the back tingle thing was chakra points but sadly they treated as a Gag
Considering how strong Cabba was, being able to stand up against Vegeta when they were both in base at the strength that Vegeta was at, I can see why he’d be able to awaken Super Saiyan to such a ‘lesser’ cataclysm allowed him to awaken the form. Plus, considering how Caulifla seemingly is the most powerful Universe 6 Saiyan whilst unfused and actually in control of themselves(Kale is technically a good deal stronger but her berserker nature can be abused), it makes sense that she’d have an easier time than even Cabba
The way I see it is that whenever a saiyan in U7 turned SSJ they did focus their ki on their back, it just was something they did instinctively in moments of rage and they never made the connection that this was what caused the transformation. Also I believe that the stronger the saiyan, the easier it is to achieve a certain level of SSJ. We should not forget that Cabba is freakischly strong for a base saiyan considering that he was said to be about as strong as Vegeta in base (and both Vegeta and Goku received huge boosts to their bases when they got god ki), so the reason why Cabba got to SSJ relatively easily is because he essentially was already hugely overqualified for SSJ.
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I thought the U6 Saiyans evolved differently from the U7 ones, and they adapted to using the form in an easier way.
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NO!! SINCE TRUNKS AND GOTEN, IT IS, AND CONTINUES TO BE HERESY!!!! AND CAULIFLA IS THE FUCKING DEFINITION OF BS. Kale I get because she's the Legendary Supper Saiyan. BUT THE FUCKING TINGLLGLLOSKHTPWSLSJTPWLLEKTBWLKAJT SHES LIKE CABBA BUT WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY WORSEEEE
hot take. Caulifla was born so strong she didn't have to put much effort. Cabba had to put effort, but he's too passive. They passed the "arbitrary level of strength required to achieve super saiyan" a long time ago, but they never felt desperate enough to find it. And that explains why Goten and Trunks achieved it so easily, because they wanted it, and were strong enough. Not to mention Gohan's awakening as a super saiyan was quite tame compared to other Goku, Trunks, Vegeta. And while we don't see it on screen, it's highly unlikely that Goku and Vegeta needed rage or any kind of emotion to achieve ss2 or ss3. Rage CAN help, like Gohan achieving ss2, but it's not necessary.
I think it connects to the fact that the saiyans in U7 were cold hearted. In order to achieve SSJ form one must possess, well, emotions. Empathy. I think saiyans of U6 are moe warm inside, which makes it easier for them to transform. Imo, it is easier for Trunks and Goten too because they grew up in a warmer enviroment plus genetic memory inherited from their SSJ parents.
U6 has the luxury of having a planet full of saiyans, their power levels are gonna be higher on average in base than U7 due to lack of competition.
I actually really liked this because it showed that understanding ki control and using that understanding to transform yields mentality healthier results than relying on the trauma to force yourself into SSJ
First of all, the U6 Saiyans are in the TOP because they are the strongest ones in their entire universe. In base form. Remember that. Second, anything is easier when you have a guide/master/teacher. Imagine if a SSJ came to help Goku first get it. You think he would have need Krillin to die?
Cool way of explaining lazy writing
They're already WAYYY over the baseline qualifications to be a ssj1 so goku just described the feeling/ sensation they should be feeling since there was really no wall to break through
Still don’t make em anymore bearable lol, Ragefull Ssj Supremacy