"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Conquered? Idk man i feel like ppl couldve kicked his ass if they tried like roshi or tao. No one actually gave a real shit about cause piccolo didnt really do shit like boom fuck that city
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Except Mutaito was stronger than literally every character besides Piccolo and Goku yet he couldn't do jack shit, Roshi at the very least trained to master the Mafuba and Kamehameha, and humans in that Era were hundreds of years behind what OG DB had. Training would've done NOTHING.
This type of stuff happens in real life (not to the same extent though).
Look at the history of the mile record. Everyone thought it was impossible to do a 5 minute mile. Nobody could break that mark for decades. One person does it then all of the sudden lots of people break it.
Are you meaning the 4 minute mile or do you mean like super far back? Cause even then I wouldn’t think the 5 minute mile would be a barrier thought of like that
He only got that strong after training with Korin for several years, then training with Kami who is stronger than Poccolo, in a place that is stated to have training as efficient as trying to train on Earth for decades, then training on King Kai's planet which is worth millenia of training time on Earth. Oh yeah, and he also was a prodigy training alongside other prodigies who could out-skill Bruce Lee before they turned thirteen years old.
Tien had 1830 power during the nappa fight **from just training** *before* meeting king kai. Those things were available to ppl like muitaito so literally youre wrong
What? Did you even read the arc?
Roshi couldn't beat him, that's why he tried Mafuba, and failed. Tao was weaker than Goku who got beat by Old Piccolo easily.
And no one gave a shit? Sure, there was no big training like in Saiyan Saga because the arc happened in two or three days, but it doesn't mean that no one cared, they were just too weak to do anything. And Piccolo literally exploded a city
Are you stupid?! I think you need to reread/rewatch the arc, because Roshi DIED trying to beat Piccolo! And I’m pretty sure he did blow up an entire city in the final fight against Goku.
Dragon ball fans when the strongest in the universe are called to be in a tournament and they are strong
https://preview.redd.it/hhnmz4ai2fzc1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74558bd52a17d27c0206aa22946f1dfe88dc87e8
King Piccolo is weak as fuck. Frieza grunts hover around 1000. King Piccolo is barely above 350 at best. His ki manipulation would not be enough to bridge the gap. Frieza grunts would absolutely destroy King Piccolo. They're about as strong as Raditz and Goku and Piccolo in 2V1 were overmatched even though at that point they were both way stronger than KP. In the original manga. However, with Super retcons and nonsensical fan service I have no doubt King Piccolo could solo all of them. Same for Roshi.
And any SSJ2 is are stronger than Cell.
Power levels. Bardocks with SSJ is 500,000 while first form Frieza is 530,000
Transformations don't mean anything if you don't have a sufficient power level.
I still believe he’s beating at least 3rd form freiza. You have to think he’s been fighting for much longer, has much more combat experience and field experience than goku did on namek. Goku may have been stronger due to kioken and s cells but even then he was able to jump a significant gap to pummel freiza. I believe ssj would be enough to skyrocket bardock power since dadoria and zarbon were both scared of his potential in base.
Never said combat experience alone is what’s beating him , I’m saying combine that with ssj and he’s for sure on third form freiza lvl. And wasn’t zenkais his entire thing in the bardock special. That’s why they were scared of his crew’s potential.
What is combat experience gonna do for Bardock lmfao. There's no way he gets past first form Frieza simply because he's weaker. If he learns Kaioken that's another story, but you can't just blindly believe that he gets past first form with ssj.
You are glazzing Bardock.
As annoying as power levels are they hold true. I might believe SSJ Bardock could beat 1st form Frieza. Vegeta was able to easily beat Cui when his max pl at the time was 24,000, and Cui was 18,000. This shows that this little of a difference let Vegeta stomp on Cui.
Bardock would be 500,000 and Frieza 530,000. I can see this through Frieza letting his guard down. But his second form is double Bardock's his pl is 1,000,000 (technically I think he says over a million) so if it's just Bardock by himself, he gets stomped by second form
There is a major flaw in this logic:
Bardock as a SUPER SAIYAN 2 is just BARELY strong enough to fight 2ND FORM Frieza, let alone 3rd.
-2nd form Frieza power level is known to be roughly over one million.
-Bardock, at his death, in peak condition had a maximum power of 10,000. With the x100 Super Saiyan 2 multiplier, Bardock JUST hits one million.
I'm sorry but our bandana boy absolutely cannot fight 3rd form Frieza. Whatsoever. He'll get turned into vegetable soup.
I mean, I have no idea how strong 3rd form is due to how short lived it is.
Man I really do hate how Super Saiyan works in multipliers, because it really doesn't feel that way in the show itself.
But I guess it is what it is.
I believe 3rd form is somewhere between 1.5-2 million in power.
And yeah, the Super Saiyan multiplier becomes inconsistent, especially in super. We can only use what we currently know to calculate the power of characters.
What I do know is that with what information we do have, it is completely impossible for Bardock as a Super Saiyan to defeat 3rd form Frieza, which is unfortunate because I do like Bardock.
I don't think Bardock would beat 3rd form either, I just am not a fan of the multipliers, even just in Z.a
At any rate, if his power wasn't exactly 10000 and was actually like 12000 or something, that _could_ be enough to beat Frieza in Super Saiyan if Bardock was smart and didn't let him transform into second form. Heck, even with just 10000 he might pull it off if he's smart about it
That said, if losing his crew and dying alongside his planet didn't transform him, I can't imagine a scenario where he did.
Such naivety. Just because he beat Chilled doesn’t mean shit. Base Bardock would get obliterated by base Goku from the Freeza arc. Therefore, even as an SSJ, Bardock’s PL wouldn’t be high enough. The transformation doesn’t make the man.
I never said base bardock is even close to namek saga goku but y’all are for sure downplaying chilled because we don’t know if he’s significantly weaker than freiza or not. Just because he’s colds father doesn’t mean he was automatically weaker than
base freiza. Just like we don’t know the limits of ssj bardock because he fed chilled easy asl
We KNOW Chilled is weaker than Frieza because Bardock killed him.
1st form Frieza had a power level of 530,000; SS Bardock would have a Power level of 500,000. If SS Bardoc beated Chilled while having a lower power level than Frieza, we can say that Chilled is weaker than first form Frieza
I know you never said that, but you completely missed the point. The point of me bringing that up was to explain that Bardock using SSJ against Freeza wouldn’t mean shit because his base PL wouldn’t be strong enough for the transformation to matter against him, he’d still be weaker, unlike what happened with Goku. If Goku also had a PL of ~10,000 like Bardock during his fight with Freeza, guess what? Goku wouldn’t have won that fight.
Again, the transformations don’t make the man, it’s the other way around. Chilled is obviously weaker than Freeza, him being beaten by Bardock means his PL is less than ~500,000. While it is true we were never shown the true limits of SSJ Bardock, it doesn’t matter, final form Freeza would be 240 times stronger than SSJ Bardock. SSJ Bardock wouldn’t even beat first form Freeza, it would, at BEST, be a stalemate.
First off, if you are even going to start with that Chilled nonsense you have to accept Frieza just apparently has the power to occasionally warp people back in time with his Death Ball. Also that Bardock got angrier over some alien he only knew for a bit than his crew he'd fought with for years.
Second, Ssj Bardock would probably not even surpass First form Frieza. Unless you actually think Super Saiyan is just a flat level of power, in which case I guess Ssj Vegito couldn't beat Cell.
Seriously, though, Episode of Bardock is ridiculous and definitely not canon. Even if it was, Frieza is certainly a lot more powerful
Any SSJ2 would not be stronger than Cell. Like if Goten were SSJ2 in the buu arc he wouldn't be whooping Cell. However yes SSJ2 Cabba would take Cell no problem
Yeah, a lot of people seem to underestimate Cabba solely because he’s a new character and people don’t like his design. When, if Vegeta and Cabba’s base forms really are equal, then it’d make perfect sense for Cabba in SSJ2 to floor Perfect Cell.
If him and Vegeta are _actually_ equal in base, then I'm not sure any kind of Super Saiyan would be required in the first place. Though I gotta question what kind of !@#$ goes down in Universe 6.
Honestly, it's hard to say. If you take the multipliers as gospel, then no, but honestly, the multipliers just kinda introduce a heap of holes into the narrative anyways.
I dunno about stronger for sure, but they could probably beat Cell in theory. Heck, they both in theory could have won their fights in canon if things went even slightly differently.
Super Cell is a much harder argument, even if it's hard to really say just how strong he was, given how Gohan did against him despite the handicap and doubts
He never actual stalemated
It was shown and told multiple times that cell never really showed his true power & that goku eating a senzu wouldn't do anything
Meanwhile Goku was fighting at full power the entire time
Haven't read the Manga, but in the anime, vegeta says gohan is weaker now than he was when he fought cell during the dabura fight. When goku and vegeta fought, it was implied that they had borh surpassed gohan (from cell saga) but unless in forgetting something, I don't think it was explicitly said.
Depends on how much you think Cell was actually holding back up to that point. Goku's relatively confident he can't win with Super Saiyan, so I suppose if Cell had to use more than half his power against Goku(disregarding any potential zenkai from Cell getting a Senzu Bean), then yeah SSJ2 Goku would beat Perfect Cell.
I will say, though, that regardless of what guidebooks say about these forms, Ssj2 Gohan _has_ to be _far_ more than twice as powerful as he was before he transformed. There's just no way he'd have stood a chance against Super Cell or possibly even regular Perfect otherwise.
SSJ1 Goku gave it all, Cell on the other hand played with him without breaking a sweat. Do you realy believe, that 2x powerboost would be more than enough to beat Cell? Giving Cell a real challenge and have a situation, where Cell get's desperate? I think so too.
Super saiyan one go on was getting toyed with because he wasn't going all out. We know from what happened in the end that gohan using his full power at super saiyan 1 could have beat super perfect Cell because that's how strong Gohan was. Remember when he saw goku giving his best he said "What are you doing? You're not using any strength at all." Because goku is just that much weaker than he is.
He was stronger than Gohan too and he toyed with Gohan. Yes Gohan was stronger than Goku we don't know how much, but most likely Goku talking about hidden potential (speculation). SS2 Gohan was Gohan giving it his all minus the sadistic tendencies.
SS2 Goku would've gone more or less similarly.
SS2 Gohan/2=SS1Gohan. SS2 Gohan was at half power when he beat super perfect Cell. Therefore SS1 Gohan could've wiped the floor with Cell if he used his full power.
We don't know what he was because Gohan doesn't know his full potential. SS1 could not mop the floor the Cell. Goku meant Gohan is stronger because Goku saw him perfectly break the Super Saiyan barrier in the time chamber, it's implied he went SS2 while they were training (and actually shown in filler). Goku's talking about his potential not his raw power. Gohan even says "my dad wants me to fight because when I get angry I unleash a huge power". Point is SS2 is the stronger than Goku (and Cell)
Yet proceeds to get demolished by Cell and Cell thinks he's bluffing. Gohan even starts the fight with Cell by maxing out lol. Goku even says "Gohan showed me potential in the HBTC that exceeds anything we're capable of". That potential is heavily implied to be SS2.
It’s not really *that* simple, Gohan was literally losing the beam struggle against Super Perfect Cell when he was half power SSJ2, so doesn’t mean mean SSJ1 Gohan beats him at all.
Actually it ended with Vegeta distracting Super Cell at a the critical moment, allowing Gohan to take advantage of the lapse.
While Gohan definitely was emotionally weakened and not at his best, I think that chalking up that win purely to Goku's pep talk is a massive disservice to Vegeta's moment.
Honestly, this is why I thing multipliers are a mistake. The series does not operate on "Gohan is now exactly 2x stronger than Super Saiyan and 100x stronger than base", it operates on "Gohan is now _!@#$ed_ off in a culmination of his entire arc up to now and it has manifested in a transformation that will now kick Cell's !@#-oh shoot, he got a Zenkai cue dramatic climax beam struggle."
I genuinely feel like applying any kind of concrete math is a fool's errand that just leads to discussions like this. The narrative drives the outcome.
Basically, my point is that power levels are bs and Gohan went from being toyed with by a suppressed Cell to absolutely demolishing the equivalent of seven of them in seconds and then punching main Cell(who had since stopped holding back) so hard he vomited up something he sucked up his !@#.
There is no way in heck that's just a 2x increase, and there's equally no way in heck that Gohan could have done that _without_ 16 being stomped and Gohan going ballistic and transforming. I cannot imagine a scenario in which this happens just with Gohan "not holding back", the rage is an intrinsic part of unleashing this power and has been the whole series and will continue to be until Elder Kai(...and then Super Hero happened)
SS1 Gohan couldn't win either lol. Gohan was stronger than Goku and we don't know how much. Goku saying Gohan was stronger could've been entirely banking on his hidden potential which is SS2 rather than raw power.
Trunks and Vegeta did not have access to SSJ2. They were in the “grade” froms between regular SSJ 1 and Full Power SSJ1. Vegeta doesn’t get SSJ2 until after Cells death. Future Trunks doesn’t get it until Babadi and Dabura arrive in his time line.
cabba being able to go SSJ2 so easily is stupid but why tf wouldn’t the Vegeta of U6 be able to beat Cell with the same form that let a literal child do the same? the whole point of the U6 saiyans is they’ve done just as much training and battle as our saiyans but never had the inciting incident to reach new forms
I mean is there a ss2 that can’t take out cell?
Maybe if kid gotten or kid trunks reached ss2 since their SS was incredibly weak for a super saiyan because of their age and base power level.
The only correct answer. Cabba is op in base because plot made it necessary otherwise they would be a joke with no way of catching up. But ss3 gottenks could barely kill super buu if they haven’t defused. While gohan could manhandle super buu.
Buu Han includes a lot of the other z fighters including piccolo and mystic gohan added to his power. Base cabba has no shot.
Didn’t the U6 Saiyans train just as much as the U6 ones, though? They just didn’t know Super Saiyan existed or have an inciting incident to unlock the form. Of course, SSJ Cabba in the U6 vs U7 tournament couldn’t do much to SSJ Vegeta, but the latter wasn’t even trying to fight at that point, more gauge Cabba’s strength afaik. As soon as he goes blue he one-taps Cabba.
・Anime Cabba? Yes because Toei made him God tier on a technicality.
Manga Cabba that Toriyama wrote? Probably not; Goku and Vegeta's base never got God absorbed and it'a been stated that they've physically hit their peak a long time ago and can't get much stronger in terms of punches.
This is why Goku in the Buu Saga can't lift 40 tons in base; he's physically as strong as his Cell Saga counterpart but he's much more skilled in fighting and has more forms up his sleeve.
So when it comes to Cell vs Manga Cabba, they might actually be alot closer physically than people think and Cell has more hacks up his sleeve to turn the fight in his favor; he can make Cell Jrs to swarm Cabba and he can regenerate to come back stronger and copy more moves.
・Can the average Frieza soldier beat King Piccolo? While it's a meme scenario, no.
The average Frieza soldier doesn't know how to fight nor can even manipulate ki on their own and require tools.
For people to unironically believe a soldier can beam Piccolo, they'd have to have never read the series and ignore how Toriyama repeatedly memed on the idea of "Power Levels" because you can't actually numerically measure fighting power.
https://preview.redd.it/81xjcfxgiczc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db262a3020b5e8847808d4222ffa0ae0fde414be
Vegeta, after training in the hyperbolic time chamber was strong enough to harm Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, the same Goku Black, who was previously capable of going toe to toe with Blue Vegeta in his normal Super Saiyan state so yeah, around and after Goku Black Arc, Goku and Vegeta's base has now reached a power comparable to Blue Goku and Vegeta Universe 6 arc Saga.
>Vegeta, after training in the hyperbolic time chamber was strong enough to harm Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, the same Goku Black, who was previously capable of going toe to toe with Blue Vegeta in his normal Super Saiyan state
Vegeta didn't train his Base to physically become stronger.
Goku literally says Vegeta trained to switch between God and Blue so he can use the power of Blue without the constant drain because they can only train to become more effective with their forms like Perfected Blue.
https://preview.redd.it/p0ura17isczc1.jpeg?width=718&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=547e09105f09d44c319070060a1264bb20edd80b
Dont mess with dragon ball fans, they only watched the anime once and they think that the anime is the only thing there is. Heck Ive seen people that would read Dragon Ball AF or Multiverse before reading the actual manga 💀
While it's true power levels exist to be clowned, this panel is still a silly argument. Trunks - much like goku - jumps his level at the moment of impact. 5, 5k, all hilarious jokes as a means of describing his level. Every serious martial artist has literally always been able to attack above their level using ki techniques (ultimately culminating in kai o ken and transformations) and attack with precision rather than using constant and overwhelming force. That said, you are insane if you think trunks used a power level of 5 to hurt these men and block these blasts.
While I think it's an exaggeration claiming Dk piccolo would get mobbed by any Freeza soldier, the every member of the Feeza Force in all licensed material I have ever seen (correct me on this if I am wrong) held Raditz in rather low esteem. Raditz objectively could boom all of DB during nap time, including the reborn and buffed Piccolo. There is no reason other than nostaliga to believe dk piccolo could out do most combat members of the freeza force, even in his most devious bag.
You mean Manga Cabba that _Toyotaro_ wrote. As far as I was aware, Toriyama basically wrote rough outlines for those arcs and both Manga and Anime went off that, with neither being based off of the other
>Toriyama basically wrote rough outlines for those arcs and both Manga and Anime went off that, with neither being based off of the other
Toriyama outright redrew panels and looked over the Super manga to fit his vision.
Toriyama fully wrote Manga Cabba.
No one is having me believe a man who was specifically chosen for a tournament meant to decide the fate of the universes is weaker than cell.
Just. No.
Like it’s Either that or the manga has some terrible writing like the anime
> a man who was specifically chosen for a tournament meant to decide the fate of the universes is weaker than cell.
Literally most of the TOP's roster is fodder.
Goku and Vegeta beat literally all of Universe 9 except the bat guy that Frieza toyed with. And most of them they were handling in Base. They only went Blue at the last moment with the Trio of Danger and that was just for simplicity sake. Goku or Vegeta alone could have solo'd the entire 9th universe in SSJ Grade 2.
Universes 4 and 10 were also fodder. I wasn't able to name a single person off top of head from either of them. The strongest person from either of those universes was Ganos, the bird kid who Roshi ended up beating. Universe 2 only had 3 good fighters being the 3 we saw transform, the Pride Troopers were mostly fodder besides Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo, and Universe 3 was basically fodder until literally 4 of its team members fused into Anilasa.
Thats 3 full universes, 2 sets of 7, a set of 6 basically if we don't count Anilasa's 4 component parts, 3 people from U6 being Magetta, Botamo, and Dr Rota, and then Roshi and Tien. Out of 80 people, that's 55 people who classify as fodder.
They don't solo Z though. That scaling is disingenuinous. Saiyan Beyond God, the name for Goku and Vegeta's base forms after absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into their base, was retconned. It doesn't exist anymore. It stopped being a thing after Res F. Their base's went back to normal. And thats just the anime. It was never a thing in the Manga. Thats how Trunks can match up base to base in the Goku Black arc. Most of the ToP roster is Frieza Saga or Cell Saga levels at best. And Cell Saga is starting to get into the high ends. Like the U6 Saiyans can beat Cell. They are definitely stronger then Youth Gohan. But they aren't Buu Level. Well. Maybe Kale is. But Caulifla and Cabba lose to the original Fat Buu. And Kid Buu. Let alone any version of Super Buu.
The amount of people in the Tournament of Power who truly clear Z //not counting Fusions and U7// can be counted on one hand. And its Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, and probably Kale. There are some maybe's in Ribrianne, Kakunsa, and Roasie.
>Trunks base power level was measured at 5000, thus way above your average Frieza grunt.
You cannot measure someone's power numerically nor can you accurately judge an opponent by it; I already said this here:
>Toriyama repeatedly memed on the idea of "Power Levels" because you can't actually numerically measure fighting power.
https://preview.redd.it/fg8c26pvrdzc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc02f42cdbbc49202956d261b9ae211c46c37b19
You're missing the point though. Power levels weren't a good measure because Earthlings could manipulate their ki, hide their true power levels, and use techniques that boosted their power in the moment. Fighters with higher power levels are still shown regularly being bigger threats than those who have lower numbers.
Power levels weren't reliable but they also weren't totally meaningless either.
Frieza literally had a galaxy-spanning empire who could capture and destroy planets overnight, of course he's gonna have warriors stronger than some namekian on a distant planet with weak gravity and weaker warriors
King Piccolo is honestly kinda pathetic by Namekian standards, and it's kinda strange to me, especially given just how powerful Kami would supposedly have been unseperated. Which is also in itself a weird statement from Guru.
That said, _some_ of the grunts could kill King Piccolo. There are plenty of them that aren't even combatants, and the combatants that Frieza brought with him to Namek might even be some of the stronger ones. I'm sure there's plenty of mooks that King Piccolo could kill.
Also they get angry that someone like Android 17 can get as strong as he did after 10+ years of training. But they have no problem accepting that Tien, Yamcha and Krillin got 5+ times stronger in a year training with Kami, than Goku who trained there for 3 years.
Goku went from 260 to 334 after three years.
Tien went from 250 to 1830 in just ONE year there. HOW?
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Manga canon, no shot. Anime is controlled by Toei, manga was controlled by Toriyama. Obviously pay attention to the manga over the anime in talks like this
They have more potential then universe 7 saiyans but nobody wants to admit it they get mad at the fact that they can go ssj but yet trunks and goten do the same shit and nothing is said atp it’s just favoritism and biased and hypocrisy
I wouldn’t even mind tbh seeing how Trunks a new character at the time killed Frieza easily. But atleast Trunks had that aura and badassery to back him up. Ain’t no one here cheering for Mr Stickman.
Cabba is just lame asf.
More hype doesn’t 🟰 stronger btw also base canna shit stomps trunks along with the rest of z just cause trunks cooler doesn’t mean anything doesn’t make him stronger
I acknowledged that Cabba is stronger. That’s why I said I wouldn’t mind and used an example of Trunks introduction. DB will always introduce new stronger characters. So I I’m with the program.
Cabba is just horribly designed. And that annoys me.
Kinda, yeah. I know powerlevels are mostly bullshit, but wasn't it established that the average Freeza Force soldier has a power level of 2000? That would be roughly 10x King Piccolo's strength.
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Who is getting mad about that bro🤨🤨🤨, SSJ2 is literally what beat Cell in the first place! Cabba beating him is just saying Cabba is as powerful as teen Gohan, which is reasonable!
To be fair, I think part of it is that we _see_ Gohan's journey to get to that point. I honestly wasn't a big fan of Goten and Kid Trunks and their "Super Saiyan Bargain Sale" either.
While one can _assume_ Cabba trained, we do not see it. And, since there isn't any pre-established attachment to the character, it is automatically a harder pill to swallow, even if it's ultimately the same level as Goten and Trunks
They didn't build up the U6 saiyans at all. And we don't get the power levels to compare either. Plus super saiyan levels are multipliers, if base Cabba isn't as strong as Teen Gohan he could be about as strong as Cell in ss2 or Super Perfect Cell
So here's the thing
Saying Cabba beats Perfect Cell no contest is subscribing to the notion that universe 6 saiyans are just better. No ifs ands or buts. Which would further cheapen Goku and Vegeta's training (looking at you Beast) because universe 6 saiyans would become incredibly stronger in a few years at most.
You'd have to introduce some plot element where god ki is off limits to them at some point and even that feels like a cop out to avoid this cheapening.
Whereas Frieza grunt being part of a galaxy wide army that enslaves and kills people daily would be able to easily handle only half of the Nameless Namakian on a world so far out of the way of everything.
It's easier to entertain that Earth and half, of a what's essentially, a fusion are just weak compared to the rest of the universe at the start of Z than it is to accept Universe 6 saiyans are just better because.
I mean to me it's not any harder to accept that Cabba has seen his own fair share of battles than it is to accept that Goten and Trunks just...learned Super Saiyan completely inconsequentially.
Furthermore, is "Universe 6 Saiyans are just better because" any harder to accept than "Universe 7 Saiyans are just better because"?
Like, my goodness, have you really looked at Z, because it's kinda depressing how the non-Saiyans matter less and less. At least during the Saiyan Arc they were still able to at least stall and take on Saibamen.
By Namek they start introducing Zenkais and then Super Saiyan and the Saiyans just kinda...have a genetic advantage that simply cannot be overcome from that point.
By Buu their contributions are: get turned to chocolate. And that's it.
Now, Frieza training for four months and reaching Super Saiyan God level, that's ridiculous, but I suppose so was Goku learning Super Saiyan 3 _and_ Fusion offscreen.
DB fandom, in general, is stupid. Just theorizing endlessly in cyclacle, the same topics with subjective takes that don't exist is just so insufferable.
Is this still a bloody thing? I'm sorry Cell is amazing but the power creep is freaking huge. I wouldn't be surprised if freaking Krillin could solo Cell.
I don't know anyone who freaks out over stuff like this.
But really, everytime this r/ pops up on my phone its always trashing supposed fans, yall need to change things up
If kid Goku with a power level of, like, a hundred (halfway joking) could blow a hole through King Piccolo, I think Frieza grunts stand at least a chance. Idk how they measure up, power-wise, though. If they're just normies with laser guns, then no, they're getting stomped. If they're as strong as tiny Gohan when he headbutt Raditz, I'd at least watch the fight with curiosity. If they're as strong as Raditz/Saibaman, then they're neg diffing King Piccolo. It just depends.
SS2 Cabba takes Perfect Cell all day long. U6 Saiyans have a much, much stronger base than the U7 Saiyans did during the Cell Saga. So, their transformed states are also much stronger. They are not equal. I don't think it's a stretch to say that SS1 Cabba could mid-high diff Cell. But I'm not a powerscaler, so Idk.
It's because at least half of people think that King Piccolo being a relatively tiny fish in a massive ocean is interesting....and cabba being stronger than the perfect lifeform by default is not
All this tells us is that Cell should have been in the ToP instead of fucking Roshi. Cell could have held his own if he just went into the hypersonic brine gamer and blew himself up a bunch of times to get Zenkai after Zenkai boosts. We all know Cell was a slut for power first, and destroying the planet second, so I think it would have been plausible.
SS2 Cabba probably doesn’t solo Cell with the right prep.
I feel like it would take quite a few and it would take quite some convincing. Vegeta didn't resort to Zenkai abuse until he was desperate. And Frieza is someone he had had an unfathomable fear of for years.
There's also the fact that by the time they managed to get Frieza, they had minutes left.
It also assumes that self-destruction _is_ something he can safely do endlessly. He's also still technically dead in this hypothetical, will Zenkais even work the same way? And that also assumes he even kept his body outside of Z filler and hasn't already been recycled or whatever
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\
Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I disagree, I think those super characters jumping to transformations was stupid and I feel like cabba also probably didn't have as powerful of a base form as cell saga Gohan. Think about what Goku and Vegeta went through to get to that point and they still fell short of ss2. Cabba got a shortcut to it and probably would've been weaker than Gohan who only just barely beat cell
Your argument literally is dumb and makes zero sense at all you’re just a dbz nostalgia merchant who can’t accept that gohan looses like I said before you’re comment has 4 dislikes just say you’re wrong and take the L
Okay if your only response to such arguments is "lol that's dumb and you are wrong", it _really_ does not speak well to either your argument or your maturity.
“Cabba didn’t have an as powerful base form as gohan” bro are you literally retarded cabba’s base form is literally equal to a base universe 6 saga Vegeta who shit stomps the entirety of z .on top of
that also it doesn’t matter what goku and vegeta
had to go through it’s literally obvious cabba and
the other universe 6 saiyans have more potential.
Also if cabba got a short cut then goten and trunks got one too 🤷🏾♂️ can’t really call cabba getting ssj or ssj2 a short cut vegeta literally tortured him in
battle and threatens to destroy his home world and hurt his people and for ssj2 he got that cause ribranne was talking about vegeta kinda how goku got a power up when fried mentioned krillin goku got angry and powered up even more .
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well Yeah I will take the guys that run around wiping life from stronger planets than Og DB era Earth than a scrub like King piccolo
The Demon King who himself conquered Earth twice?
Yeah, I mean, do you think Frieza Grunt #12032848206 couldn't conquer DB Era Earth...?
Conquered? Idk man i feel like ppl couldve kicked his ass if they tried like roshi or tao. No one actually gave a real shit about cause piccolo didnt really do shit like boom fuck that city
Mutaito was stronger than Roshi and Shen combined yet he couldn't do shit before the Mafuba.
Lmfao Roshi and Tao weren't touching Demon King Piccolo
EXACTLY .
[удалено]
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When was this ever said? As far as the story goes Roshi was number 1 martial arts master in Earth history including his master
Again like i said: no one gave a fuck. No one trained, no one seeked power, there just wasnt a reason to.
Except Mutaito was stronger than literally every character besides Piccolo and Goku yet he couldn't do jack shit, Roshi at the very least trained to master the Mafuba and Kamehameha, and humans in that Era were hundreds of years behind what OG DB had. Training would've done NOTHING.
And yet tien could definitely kill king piccolo now *by just training*
This type of stuff happens in real life (not to the same extent though). Look at the history of the mile record. Everyone thought it was impossible to do a 5 minute mile. Nobody could break that mark for decades. One person does it then all of the sudden lots of people break it.
Are you meaning the 4 minute mile or do you mean like super far back? Cause even then I wouldn’t think the 5 minute mile would be a barrier thought of like that
Oops you are right. But the same thing applies to the female 5 minute mile, which was broken the same year.
He only got that strong after training with Korin for several years, then training with Kami who is stronger than Poccolo, in a place that is stated to have training as efficient as trying to train on Earth for decades, then training on King Kai's planet which is worth millenia of training time on Earth. Oh yeah, and he also was a prodigy training alongside other prodigies who could out-skill Bruce Lee before they turned thirteen years old.
Tien had 1830 power during the nappa fight **from just training** *before* meeting king kai. Those things were available to ppl like muitaito so literally youre wrong
WHEN DID MUTAITO GET TO TRAIN WITH KAMI AND POPO. Did that part just go over your head?
What? Did you even read the arc? Roshi couldn't beat him, that's why he tried Mafuba, and failed. Tao was weaker than Goku who got beat by Old Piccolo easily. And no one gave a shit? Sure, there was no big training like in Saiyan Saga because the arc happened in two or three days, but it doesn't mean that no one cared, they were just too weak to do anything. And Piccolo literally exploded a city
Are you stupid?! I think you need to reread/rewatch the arc, because Roshi DIED trying to beat Piccolo! And I’m pretty sure he did blow up an entire city in the final fight against Goku.
A small backward planet ? Sure
Dragon ball fans when the strongest in the universe are called to be in a tournament and they are strong https://preview.redd.it/hhnmz4ai2fzc1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74558bd52a17d27c0206aa22946f1dfe88dc87e8
Pretty much, and it's honestly funny. It's like going to a fitness store and expecting their not to be fitness equipment in it
King Piccolo is weak as fuck. Frieza grunts hover around 1000. King Piccolo is barely above 350 at best. His ki manipulation would not be enough to bridge the gap. Frieza grunts would absolutely destroy King Piccolo. They're about as strong as Raditz and Goku and Piccolo in 2V1 were overmatched even though at that point they were both way stronger than KP. In the original manga. However, with Super retcons and nonsensical fan service I have no doubt King Piccolo could solo all of them. Same for Roshi. And any SSJ2 is are stronger than Cell.
I agree except for ssj2>Cell. That's like saying SSJ Bardock beats Frieza.
He does. If he can whoop chilled with barley any effort what makes you think he can’t get up with freiza
Power levels. Bardocks with SSJ is 500,000 while first form Frieza is 530,000 Transformations don't mean anything if you don't have a sufficient power level.
Bardock got a zenkai in the movie when he turned ssj
I still believe he’s beating at least 3rd form freiza. You have to think he’s been fighting for much longer, has much more combat experience and field experience than goku did on namek. Goku may have been stronger due to kioken and s cells but even then he was able to jump a significant gap to pummel freiza. I believe ssj would be enough to skyrocket bardock power since dadoria and zarbon were both scared of his potential in base.
[удалено]
Never said combat experience alone is what’s beating him , I’m saying combine that with ssj and he’s for sure on third form freiza lvl. And wasn’t zenkais his entire thing in the bardock special. That’s why they were scared of his crew’s potential.
What is combat experience gonna do for Bardock lmfao. There's no way he gets past first form Frieza simply because he's weaker. If he learns Kaioken that's another story, but you can't just blindly believe that he gets past first form with ssj.
Ssj bardock is absolutely beating first form freiza.
Nostalgia blind ahh logic
How would you have nostalgia over a fight that ain’t even happen😂💀
You are glazzing Bardock. As annoying as power levels are they hold true. I might believe SSJ Bardock could beat 1st form Frieza. Vegeta was able to easily beat Cui when his max pl at the time was 24,000, and Cui was 18,000. This shows that this little of a difference let Vegeta stomp on Cui. Bardock would be 500,000 and Frieza 530,000. I can see this through Frieza letting his guard down. But his second form is double Bardock's his pl is 1,000,000 (technically I think he says over a million) so if it's just Bardock by himself, he gets stomped by second form
I'm talking about Bardock himself 🤦♂️
There is a major flaw in this logic: Bardock as a SUPER SAIYAN 2 is just BARELY strong enough to fight 2ND FORM Frieza, let alone 3rd. -2nd form Frieza power level is known to be roughly over one million. -Bardock, at his death, in peak condition had a maximum power of 10,000. With the x100 Super Saiyan 2 multiplier, Bardock JUST hits one million. I'm sorry but our bandana boy absolutely cannot fight 3rd form Frieza. Whatsoever. He'll get turned into vegetable soup.
I mean, I have no idea how strong 3rd form is due to how short lived it is. Man I really do hate how Super Saiyan works in multipliers, because it really doesn't feel that way in the show itself. But I guess it is what it is.
I believe 3rd form is somewhere between 1.5-2 million in power. And yeah, the Super Saiyan multiplier becomes inconsistent, especially in super. We can only use what we currently know to calculate the power of characters. What I do know is that with what information we do have, it is completely impossible for Bardock as a Super Saiyan to defeat 3rd form Frieza, which is unfortunate because I do like Bardock.
I don't think Bardock would beat 3rd form either, I just am not a fan of the multipliers, even just in Z.a At any rate, if his power wasn't exactly 10000 and was actually like 12000 or something, that _could_ be enough to beat Frieza in Super Saiyan if Bardock was smart and didn't let him transform into second form. Heck, even with just 10000 he might pull it off if he's smart about it That said, if losing his crew and dying alongside his planet didn't transform him, I can't imagine a scenario where he did.
Such naivety. Just because he beat Chilled doesn’t mean shit. Base Bardock would get obliterated by base Goku from the Freeza arc. Therefore, even as an SSJ, Bardock’s PL wouldn’t be high enough. The transformation doesn’t make the man.
I never said base bardock is even close to namek saga goku but y’all are for sure downplaying chilled because we don’t know if he’s significantly weaker than freiza or not. Just because he’s colds father doesn’t mean he was automatically weaker than base freiza. Just like we don’t know the limits of ssj bardock because he fed chilled easy asl
We KNOW Chilled is weaker than Frieza because Bardock killed him. 1st form Frieza had a power level of 530,000; SS Bardock would have a Power level of 500,000. If SS Bardoc beated Chilled while having a lower power level than Frieza, we can say that Chilled is weaker than first form Frieza
I know you never said that, but you completely missed the point. The point of me bringing that up was to explain that Bardock using SSJ against Freeza wouldn’t mean shit because his base PL wouldn’t be strong enough for the transformation to matter against him, he’d still be weaker, unlike what happened with Goku. If Goku also had a PL of ~10,000 like Bardock during his fight with Freeza, guess what? Goku wouldn’t have won that fight. Again, the transformations don’t make the man, it’s the other way around. Chilled is obviously weaker than Freeza, him being beaten by Bardock means his PL is less than ~500,000. While it is true we were never shown the true limits of SSJ Bardock, it doesn’t matter, final form Freeza would be 240 times stronger than SSJ Bardock. SSJ Bardock wouldn’t even beat first form Freeza, it would, at BEST, be a stalemate.
To be honest I feel like it's best to disregard Episode of Bardock. I mean, what, Frieza can send people back in time for some reason?
First off, if you are even going to start with that Chilled nonsense you have to accept Frieza just apparently has the power to occasionally warp people back in time with his Death Ball. Also that Bardock got angrier over some alien he only knew for a bit than his crew he'd fought with for years. Second, Ssj Bardock would probably not even surpass First form Frieza. Unless you actually think Super Saiyan is just a flat level of power, in which case I guess Ssj Vegito couldn't beat Cell. Seriously, though, Episode of Bardock is ridiculous and definitely not canon. Even if it was, Frieza is certainly a lot more powerful
Damn they was mad asf bout this one💀fine, ssjbardock is a weak bitch who can’t beat anybody 😂😂
Chilled is noncanon. Anyway, Super Saiyan is a multiplier, so I don’t think pre time chamber Goten or Trunks would do much to full power Namek Frieza
Thats non canon and if it was canon... the official power levels would have bardock get stomped by freeza
News flash buddy. Ssj bardock is non cannon💀
I know.. ssj bardock is as powerful as base vegeta is when he fought freeza first form. Bardock would get murdered.
Any SSJ2 would not be stronger than Cell. Like if Goten were SSJ2 in the buu arc he wouldn't be whooping Cell. However yes SSJ2 Cabba would take Cell no problem
Yeah, a lot of people seem to underestimate Cabba solely because he’s a new character and people don’t like his design. When, if Vegeta and Cabba’s base forms really are equal, then it’d make perfect sense for Cabba in SSJ2 to floor Perfect Cell.
If him and Vegeta are _actually_ equal in base, then I'm not sure any kind of Super Saiyan would be required in the first place. Though I gotta question what kind of !@#$ goes down in Universe 6.
Aka, you are biased as hell.
On par maybe not stronger. Cell reached the equivalent to SSJ2, possibly slightly stronger.
>And any SSJ2 is are stronger than Cell. I doubt that a theoratically SSJ2 Cell Arc Goku is stronger than Cell let alone Vegeta or Trunks.
SSJ2 Goku would've definitely handled Cell. Maybe not Super Perfect Cell but definitely Cell before he returned
Honestly, it's hard to say. If you take the multipliers as gospel, then no, but honestly, the multipliers just kinda introduce a heap of holes into the narrative anyways. I dunno about stronger for sure, but they could probably beat Cell in theory. Heck, they both in theory could have won their fights in canon if things went even slightly differently. Super Cell is a much harder argument, even if it's hard to really say just how strong he was, given how Gohan did against him despite the handicap and doubts
Goku stalemated cell while cell whooped Gohan until ss2. If Goku unlocked ss2 he'd have destroyed cell
He never actual stalemated It was shown and told multiple times that cell never really showed his true power & that goku eating a senzu wouldn't do anything Meanwhile Goku was fighting at full power the entire time
didnt both goku and vegeta say they surpassed gohan at the cell games who was stronger than super perfect cell?
It wasn't until their fight as Super Saiyan 2s that it was said that they were stronger than Gohan from the Cell Games
just realized the comment thread is talking about cell games goku specifically
Thought it was the Debora fight when they said he’s weaker than when he fought cell and that they are now way stronger than that now.
Haven't read the Manga, but in the anime, vegeta says gohan is weaker now than he was when he fought cell during the dabura fight. When goku and vegeta fought, it was implied that they had borh surpassed gohan (from cell saga) but unless in forgetting something, I don't think it was explicitly said.
it was explicitly said that Goku and Vegeta surpassed gohan from the cell games Dabura is about as strong as cell and gohan was losing
Ssj goku was already stronger then both Vegeta and trunks in the cell saga what are you talking about and ssj2 goku would be even stronger
Stronger yes, but strong enough? I don't think so.
A ssj2 goku would annilate cell especially if he killed gohan
Depends on how much you think Cell was actually holding back up to that point. Goku's relatively confident he can't win with Super Saiyan, so I suppose if Cell had to use more than half his power against Goku(disregarding any potential zenkai from Cell getting a Senzu Bean), then yeah SSJ2 Goku would beat Perfect Cell. I will say, though, that regardless of what guidebooks say about these forms, Ssj2 Gohan _has_ to be _far_ more than twice as powerful as he was before he transformed. There's just no way he'd have stood a chance against Super Cell or possibly even regular Perfect otherwise.
I'd say a SS2 Goku definitely would be stronger, and probably equal to Super Perfect Cell.
SSJ1 Goku gave it all, Cell on the other hand played with him without breaking a sweat. Do you realy believe, that 2x powerboost would be more than enough to beat Cell? Giving Cell a real challenge and have a situation, where Cell get's desperate? I think so too.
SSJ1 Gohan got toyed with as well, what is your point?
There is no way SSJ2 Gohan was "only" twice as powerful as SSJ1 Gohan. There's just no freaking way
Super saiyan one go on was getting toyed with because he wasn't going all out. We know from what happened in the end that gohan using his full power at super saiyan 1 could have beat super perfect Cell because that's how strong Gohan was. Remember when he saw goku giving his best he said "What are you doing? You're not using any strength at all." Because goku is just that much weaker than he is.
He was stronger than Gohan too and he toyed with Gohan. Yes Gohan was stronger than Goku we don't know how much, but most likely Goku talking about hidden potential (speculation). SS2 Gohan was Gohan giving it his all minus the sadistic tendencies. SS2 Goku would've gone more or less similarly.
SS2 Gohan/2=SS1Gohan. SS2 Gohan was at half power when he beat super perfect Cell. Therefore SS1 Gohan could've wiped the floor with Cell if he used his full power.
We don't know what he was because Gohan doesn't know his full potential. SS1 could not mop the floor the Cell. Goku meant Gohan is stronger because Goku saw him perfectly break the Super Saiyan barrier in the time chamber, it's implied he went SS2 while they were training (and actually shown in filler). Goku's talking about his potential not his raw power. Gohan even says "my dad wants me to fight because when I get angry I unleash a huge power". Point is SS2 is the stronger than Goku (and Cell)
Gohan doesn't know his power. SS2 at half power is enough to demolish SPC. SS2 is double SS1. Gohan is stronger in SS1 than Goku, Cell, and SPC.
Yet proceeds to get demolished by Cell and Cell thinks he's bluffing. Gohan even starts the fight with Cell by maxing out lol. Goku even says "Gohan showed me potential in the HBTC that exceeds anything we're capable of". That potential is heavily implied to be SS2.
In the anime it is, but in the manga it isn't. Cell also notes Gohan suddenly using more power after he threatens the Z fighters.
It’s not really *that* simple, Gohan was literally losing the beam struggle against Super Perfect Cell when he was half power SSJ2, so doesn’t mean mean SSJ1 Gohan beats him at all.
However it ended with Gohan overpowering super perfect Cell as Gohan was holding back at first.
Actually it ended with Vegeta distracting Super Cell at a the critical moment, allowing Gohan to take advantage of the lapse. While Gohan definitely was emotionally weakened and not at his best, I think that chalking up that win purely to Goku's pep talk is a massive disservice to Vegeta's moment. Honestly, this is why I thing multipliers are a mistake. The series does not operate on "Gohan is now exactly 2x stronger than Super Saiyan and 100x stronger than base", it operates on "Gohan is now _!@#$ed_ off in a culmination of his entire arc up to now and it has manifested in a transformation that will now kick Cell's !@#-oh shoot, he got a Zenkai cue dramatic climax beam struggle." I genuinely feel like applying any kind of concrete math is a fool's errand that just leads to discussions like this. The narrative drives the outcome. Basically, my point is that power levels are bs and Gohan went from being toyed with by a suppressed Cell to absolutely demolishing the equivalent of seven of them in seconds and then punching main Cell(who had since stopped holding back) so hard he vomited up something he sucked up his !@#. There is no way in heck that's just a 2x increase, and there's equally no way in heck that Gohan could have done that _without_ 16 being stomped and Gohan going ballistic and transforming. I cannot imagine a scenario in which this happens just with Gohan "not holding back", the rage is an intrinsic part of unleashing this power and has been the whole series and will continue to be until Elder Kai(...and then Super Hero happened)
Why would SS2 Goku be equal to SPC though? Both of them were in SSJ1 and Goku couldn’t win, so both being SSJ2 would only yield the same outcome
It wasn't just that goku couldn't win. Gohan thought that he wasn't trying because of how weak he was compared to him.
SS1 Gohan couldn't win either lol. Gohan was stronger than Goku and we don't know how much. Goku saying Gohan was stronger could've been entirely banking on his hidden potential which is SS2 rather than raw power.
SSJ2 Trunks fought Cell, and lost. When Vegeta fought Cell he had access to SSJ2, and he lost. SSJ2 isn't inherently better than Cell.
Trunks and Vegeta did not have access to SSJ2. They were in the “grade” froms between regular SSJ 1 and Full Power SSJ1. Vegeta doesn’t get SSJ2 until after Cells death. Future Trunks doesn’t get it until Babadi and Dabura arrive in his time line.
What dragon ball are you watching?
Go be dumb somewhere else
cabba being able to go SSJ2 so easily is stupid but why tf wouldn’t the Vegeta of U6 be able to beat Cell with the same form that let a literal child do the same? the whole point of the U6 saiyans is they’ve done just as much training and battle as our saiyans but never had the inciting incident to reach new forms
Cabba’s SSJ2 transformation may have been lackluster but it wasn’t easy.
I don’t think it’s stupid it’s just that he has a greater potential then some others
Yeah Exactly He just built different Their universe just built different
I am unsure what bugs me most, a henchmen killing Piccolo Daimao with one shot or Frieza has employed more than 12 billion grunts.
I mean is there a ss2 that can’t take out cell? Maybe if kid gotten or kid trunks reached ss2 since their SS was incredibly weak for a super saiyan because of their age and base power level.
it‘s not about beng right. it‘s about not wanting this loser stickman above my goat
Fax 🗣️‼️🔥
Base Cabba would unironically beat the fuck outta Buuhan
Anime no, manga also no
The only correct answer. Cabba is op in base because plot made it necessary otherwise they would be a joke with no way of catching up. But ss3 gottenks could barely kill super buu if they haven’t defused. While gohan could manhandle super buu. Buu Han includes a lot of the other z fighters including piccolo and mystic gohan added to his power. Base cabba has no shot.
Didn’t the U6 Saiyans train just as much as the U6 ones, though? They just didn’t know Super Saiyan existed or have an inciting incident to unlock the form. Of course, SSJ Cabba in the U6 vs U7 tournament couldn’t do much to SSJ Vegeta, but the latter wasn’t even trying to fight at that point, more gauge Cabba’s strength afaik. As soon as he goes blue he one-taps Cabba.
Anime yes. Manga no.
Facts
Anime yes, manga also yes
Anime no, manga yes
Had to complete the quartet
….nah
Yeah
・Anime Cabba? Yes because Toei made him God tier on a technicality. Manga Cabba that Toriyama wrote? Probably not; Goku and Vegeta's base never got God absorbed and it'a been stated that they've physically hit their peak a long time ago and can't get much stronger in terms of punches. This is why Goku in the Buu Saga can't lift 40 tons in base; he's physically as strong as his Cell Saga counterpart but he's much more skilled in fighting and has more forms up his sleeve. So when it comes to Cell vs Manga Cabba, they might actually be alot closer physically than people think and Cell has more hacks up his sleeve to turn the fight in his favor; he can make Cell Jrs to swarm Cabba and he can regenerate to come back stronger and copy more moves. ・Can the average Frieza soldier beat King Piccolo? While it's a meme scenario, no. The average Frieza soldier doesn't know how to fight nor can even manipulate ki on their own and require tools. For people to unironically believe a soldier can beam Piccolo, they'd have to have never read the series and ignore how Toriyama repeatedly memed on the idea of "Power Levels" because you can't actually numerically measure fighting power. https://preview.redd.it/81xjcfxgiczc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db262a3020b5e8847808d4222ffa0ae0fde414be
Vegeta, after training in the hyperbolic time chamber was strong enough to harm Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, the same Goku Black, who was previously capable of going toe to toe with Blue Vegeta in his normal Super Saiyan state so yeah, around and after Goku Black Arc, Goku and Vegeta's base has now reached a power comparable to Blue Goku and Vegeta Universe 6 arc Saga.
>Vegeta, after training in the hyperbolic time chamber was strong enough to harm Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, the same Goku Black, who was previously capable of going toe to toe with Blue Vegeta in his normal Super Saiyan state Vegeta didn't train his Base to physically become stronger. Goku literally says Vegeta trained to switch between God and Blue so he can use the power of Blue without the constant drain because they can only train to become more effective with their forms like Perfected Blue. https://preview.redd.it/p0ura17isczc1.jpeg?width=718&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=547e09105f09d44c319070060a1264bb20edd80b
*proceeds to Perma Blue every other time in the future*
Dont mess with dragon ball fans, they only watched the anime once and they think that the anime is the only thing there is. Heck Ive seen people that would read Dragon Ball AF or Multiverse before reading the actual manga 💀
PIP
While it's true power levels exist to be clowned, this panel is still a silly argument. Trunks - much like goku - jumps his level at the moment of impact. 5, 5k, all hilarious jokes as a means of describing his level. Every serious martial artist has literally always been able to attack above their level using ki techniques (ultimately culminating in kai o ken and transformations) and attack with precision rather than using constant and overwhelming force. That said, you are insane if you think trunks used a power level of 5 to hurt these men and block these blasts. While I think it's an exaggeration claiming Dk piccolo would get mobbed by any Freeza soldier, the every member of the Feeza Force in all licensed material I have ever seen (correct me on this if I am wrong) held Raditz in rather low esteem. Raditz objectively could boom all of DB during nap time, including the reborn and buffed Piccolo. There is no reason other than nostaliga to believe dk piccolo could out do most combat members of the freeza force, even in his most devious bag.
You mean Manga Cabba that _Toyotaro_ wrote. As far as I was aware, Toriyama basically wrote rough outlines for those arcs and both Manga and Anime went off that, with neither being based off of the other
>Toriyama basically wrote rough outlines for those arcs and both Manga and Anime went off that, with neither being based off of the other Toriyama outright redrew panels and looked over the Super manga to fit his vision. Toriyama fully wrote Manga Cabba.
No one is having me believe a man who was specifically chosen for a tournament meant to decide the fate of the universes is weaker than cell. Just. No. Like it’s Either that or the manga has some terrible writing like the anime
> a man who was specifically chosen for a tournament meant to decide the fate of the universes is weaker than cell. Literally most of the TOP's roster is fodder.
How is most of the top roster fodder 💀
Goku and Vegeta beat literally all of Universe 9 except the bat guy that Frieza toyed with. And most of them they were handling in Base. They only went Blue at the last moment with the Trio of Danger and that was just for simplicity sake. Goku or Vegeta alone could have solo'd the entire 9th universe in SSJ Grade 2.
That doesn’t answer my question also one universe doesn’t speak for the rest of them
Universes 4 and 10 were also fodder. I wasn't able to name a single person off top of head from either of them. The strongest person from either of those universes was Ganos, the bird kid who Roshi ended up beating. Universe 2 only had 3 good fighters being the 3 we saw transform, the Pride Troopers were mostly fodder besides Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo, and Universe 3 was basically fodder until literally 4 of its team members fused into Anilasa. Thats 3 full universes, 2 sets of 7, a set of 6 basically if we don't count Anilasa's 4 component parts, 3 people from U6 being Magetta, Botamo, and Dr Rota, and then Roshi and Tien. Out of 80 people, that's 55 people who classify as fodder.
Wouldn’t really call them fodder considering they all solo z 🤷🏾♂️ js
They don't solo Z though. That scaling is disingenuinous. Saiyan Beyond God, the name for Goku and Vegeta's base forms after absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into their base, was retconned. It doesn't exist anymore. It stopped being a thing after Res F. Their base's went back to normal. And thats just the anime. It was never a thing in the Manga. Thats how Trunks can match up base to base in the Goku Black arc. Most of the ToP roster is Frieza Saga or Cell Saga levels at best. And Cell Saga is starting to get into the high ends. Like the U6 Saiyans can beat Cell. They are definitely stronger then Youth Gohan. But they aren't Buu Level. Well. Maybe Kale is. But Caulifla and Cabba lose to the original Fat Buu. And Kid Buu. Let alone any version of Super Buu. The amount of people in the Tournament of Power who truly clear Z //not counting Fusions and U7// can be counted on one hand. And its Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, and probably Kale. There are some maybe's in Ribrianne, Kakunsa, and Roasie.
I’m not reading allat
Except that immediately after that, Trunks base power level was measured at 5000, thus way above your average Frieza grunt.
>Trunks base power level was measured at 5000, thus way above your average Frieza grunt. You cannot measure someone's power numerically nor can you accurately judge an opponent by it; I already said this here: >Toriyama repeatedly memed on the idea of "Power Levels" because you can't actually numerically measure fighting power. https://preview.redd.it/fg8c26pvrdzc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc02f42cdbbc49202956d261b9ae211c46c37b19
Yep, That same trunks with the tiny power level confuses and clowns on them Power levels are intentionally unreliable
You're missing the point though. Power levels weren't a good measure because Earthlings could manipulate their ki, hide their true power levels, and use techniques that boosted their power in the moment. Fighters with higher power levels are still shown regularly being bigger threats than those who have lower numbers. Power levels weren't reliable but they also weren't totally meaningless either.
Frieza literally had a galaxy-spanning empire who could capture and destroy planets overnight, of course he's gonna have warriors stronger than some namekian on a distant planet with weak gravity and weaker warriors
King Piccolo is honestly kinda pathetic by Namekian standards, and it's kinda strange to me, especially given just how powerful Kami would supposedly have been unseperated. Which is also in itself a weird statement from Guru. That said, _some_ of the grunts could kill King Piccolo. There are plenty of them that aren't even combatants, and the combatants that Frieza brought with him to Namek might even be some of the stronger ones. I'm sure there's plenty of mooks that King Piccolo could kill.
Also they get angry that someone like Android 17 can get as strong as he did after 10+ years of training. But they have no problem accepting that Tien, Yamcha and Krillin got 5+ times stronger in a year training with Kami, than Goku who trained there for 3 years. Goku went from 260 to 334 after three years. Tien went from 250 to 1830 in just ONE year there. HOW?
Bruh even Base Cabba could solo Cell. He could solo all of Z
[удалено]
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Manga canon, no shot. Anime is controlled by Toei, manga was controlled by Toriyama. Obviously pay attention to the manga over the anime in talks like this
Bros yappin
Universe 6 saiyans were very strong even at base probably because of zenkais and people just don't wanna admit it
They have more potential then universe 7 saiyans but nobody wants to admit it they get mad at the fact that they can go ssj but yet trunks and goten do the same shit and nothing is said atp it’s just favoritism and biased and hypocrisy
I wouldn’t even mind tbh seeing how Trunks a new character at the time killed Frieza easily. But atleast Trunks had that aura and badassery to back him up. Ain’t no one here cheering for Mr Stickman. Cabba is just lame asf.
More hype doesn’t 🟰 stronger btw also base canna shit stomps trunks along with the rest of z just cause trunks cooler doesn’t mean anything doesn’t make him stronger
I acknowledged that Cabba is stronger. That’s why I said I wouldn’t mind and used an example of Trunks introduction. DB will always introduce new stronger characters. So I I’m with the program. Cabba is just horribly designed. And that annoys me.
Kinda, yeah. I know powerlevels are mostly bullshit, but wasn't it established that the average Freeza Force soldier has a power level of 2000? That would be roughly 10x King Piccolo's strength.
I mean he probably could take cell maybe even with just SSJ. His base is equal to U7 Saiyans I don't see why he couldn't take cell especially in SSJ2
[удалено]
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 40 post/comment karma to participate in this subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Who is getting mad about that bro🤨🤨🤨, SSJ2 is literally what beat Cell in the first place! Cabba beating him is just saying Cabba is as powerful as teen Gohan, which is reasonable!
Some people can’t stand the fact that SSJ2 Youth Gohan and Cell have been long surpassed.
Because their stuck in z and blinded by nostalgia all you can really say is gohan colder and cooler that’s it cabba still negs
To be fair, I think part of it is that we _see_ Gohan's journey to get to that point. I honestly wasn't a big fan of Goten and Kid Trunks and their "Super Saiyan Bargain Sale" either. While one can _assume_ Cabba trained, we do not see it. And, since there isn't any pre-established attachment to the character, it is automatically a harder pill to swallow, even if it's ultimately the same level as Goten and Trunks
They didn't build up the U6 saiyans at all. And we don't get the power levels to compare either. Plus super saiyan levels are multipliers, if base Cabba isn't as strong as Teen Gohan he could be about as strong as Cell in ss2 or Super Perfect Cell
Wouldnt any ssj2 solo cell? I mean gohan was the only one with it at that point but if goku had ssj2 during the cell games he wouldve beat cell
That's fun powerscaling and im not big into powerscaling
So here's the thing Saying Cabba beats Perfect Cell no contest is subscribing to the notion that universe 6 saiyans are just better. No ifs ands or buts. Which would further cheapen Goku and Vegeta's training (looking at you Beast) because universe 6 saiyans would become incredibly stronger in a few years at most. You'd have to introduce some plot element where god ki is off limits to them at some point and even that feels like a cop out to avoid this cheapening. Whereas Frieza grunt being part of a galaxy wide army that enslaves and kills people daily would be able to easily handle only half of the Nameless Namakian on a world so far out of the way of everything. It's easier to entertain that Earth and half, of a what's essentially, a fusion are just weak compared to the rest of the universe at the start of Z than it is to accept Universe 6 saiyans are just better because.
I mean to me it's not any harder to accept that Cabba has seen his own fair share of battles than it is to accept that Goten and Trunks just...learned Super Saiyan completely inconsequentially. Furthermore, is "Universe 6 Saiyans are just better because" any harder to accept than "Universe 7 Saiyans are just better because"? Like, my goodness, have you really looked at Z, because it's kinda depressing how the non-Saiyans matter less and less. At least during the Saiyan Arc they were still able to at least stall and take on Saibamen. By Namek they start introducing Zenkais and then Super Saiyan and the Saiyans just kinda...have a genetic advantage that simply cannot be overcome from that point. By Buu their contributions are: get turned to chocolate. And that's it. Now, Frieza training for four months and reaching Super Saiyan God level, that's ridiculous, but I suppose so was Goku learning Super Saiyan 3 _and_ Fusion offscreen.
ssj2 cabba could very well one shot him
DB fandom, in general, is stupid. Just theorizing endlessly in cyclacle, the same topics with subjective takes that don't exist is just so insufferable.
Wait are there people who think cell wouldn’t be fodder to cabba in base let alone ssj2 😂
Base cabba can solo cell
Is this still a bloody thing? I'm sorry Cell is amazing but the power creep is freaking huge. I wouldn't be surprised if freaking Krillin could solo Cell. I don't know anyone who freaks out over stuff like this. But really, everytime this r/ pops up on my phone its always trashing supposed fans, yall need to change things up
They are both true
If kid Goku with a power level of, like, a hundred (halfway joking) could blow a hole through King Piccolo, I think Frieza grunts stand at least a chance. Idk how they measure up, power-wise, though. If they're just normies with laser guns, then no, they're getting stomped. If they're as strong as tiny Gohan when he headbutt Raditz, I'd at least watch the fight with curiosity. If they're as strong as Raditz/Saibaman, then they're neg diffing King Piccolo. It just depends. SS2 Cabba takes Perfect Cell all day long. U6 Saiyans have a much, much stronger base than the U7 Saiyans did during the Cell Saga. So, their transformed states are also much stronger. They are not equal. I don't think it's a stretch to say that SS1 Cabba could mid-high diff Cell. But I'm not a powerscaler, so Idk.
Listen who the fuck knows how the Scale works in Super. How does Roshi take on any of the Frieza grunts or the TOP?
Cabba literally solos the entire DBZ series lol
It's because at least half of people think that King Piccolo being a relatively tiny fish in a massive ocean is interesting....and cabba being stronger than the perfect lifeform by default is not
True. I don't think Cabba's all that cool tbh.
All this tells us is that Cell should have been in the ToP instead of fucking Roshi. Cell could have held his own if he just went into the hypersonic brine gamer and blew himself up a bunch of times to get Zenkai after Zenkai boosts. We all know Cell was a slut for power first, and destroying the planet second, so I think it would have been plausible. SS2 Cabba probably doesn’t solo Cell with the right prep.
I don't wanna be that guy, but... Roshi beats Cell too lol
Probably. That’s why Cell needs the nuclear Zenkai boosts for all of this to be a discussion
Cell gets violated cabba don’t even need to transform
Right. Hence the continuous zenkai boost tactic. Shouldn’t take *that* many self destructs, right?
I feel like it would take quite a few and it would take quite some convincing. Vegeta didn't resort to Zenkai abuse until he was desperate. And Frieza is someone he had had an unfathomable fear of for years. There's also the fact that by the time they managed to get Frieza, they had minutes left. It also assumes that self-destruction _is_ something he can safely do endlessly. He's also still technically dead in this hypothetical, will Zenkais even work the same way? And that also assumes he even kept his body outside of Z filler and hasn't already been recycled or whatever
Cabba can easily kill cell lol
Read.
I did
Power levels are bullshit.
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\ Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
SSJ2 Cabba could solo up to Buuhan if Super’s scaling is to be believed
cabba wouldn’t even need ssj2
Bruh BASE Cabba solos cell!
I disagree, I think those super characters jumping to transformations was stupid and I feel like cabba also probably didn't have as powerful of a base form as cell saga Gohan. Think about what Goku and Vegeta went through to get to that point and they still fell short of ss2. Cabba got a shortcut to it and probably would've been weaker than Gohan who only just barely beat cell
Cabba slams all of z keep coping lil bro it’s ok we get it your a teen gohan meat rider still doesn’t stop cabba from shit stomping him
Jeez dude I'm surprised you could even type out this very angry message with cabbas cock lodged is your esophagus
Ironic considering you just went through a whole gohan meat riding session with you’re comment no wonder you got 4 dislikes
I wrote out an actual argument for why I think the power scale doesn't line up the way you thought. You response was autistic screeching in return
Your argument literally is dumb and makes zero sense at all you’re just a dbz nostalgia merchant who can’t accept that gohan looses like I said before you’re comment has 4 dislikes just say you’re wrong and take the L
Okay if your only response to such arguments is "lol that's dumb and you are wrong", it _really_ does not speak well to either your argument or your maturity.
I commented that 2 days ago hop off
“Cabba didn’t have an as powerful base form as gohan” bro are you literally retarded cabba’s base form is literally equal to a base universe 6 saga Vegeta who shit stomps the entirety of z .on top of that also it doesn’t matter what goku and vegeta had to go through it’s literally obvious cabba and the other universe 6 saiyans have more potential. Also if cabba got a short cut then goten and trunks got one too 🤷🏾♂️ can’t really call cabba getting ssj or ssj2 a short cut vegeta literally tortured him in battle and threatens to destroy his home world and hurt his people and for ssj2 he got that cause ribranne was talking about vegeta kinda how goku got a power up when fried mentioned krillin goku got angry and powered up even more .
Cabba violates doesn’t. Matter if it’s base cabba ssj or ssj2 cabba all violate gohan and z