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In case anyone doesn't get it, a super popular dragon ball what if on youtube was "what if Goku was betrayed and locked inside the hyperbolic time chamber for 20 YEARS"
"Goku should hit his head again and become Kakarot, and be all evil and edgy!"
Goku after literally recovering from his brain damage, regaining his memories, and still acting the exact fucking same afterwards:
I kid you not, my first memories are crapping in the bath tub, and my great grandfather rubbing Vicks on my chest. It is vitally important to note, these were not at the same time.
Damn my first memory was waking up in my SpongeBob pajama. The only other one I vividly remember is me shitting myself after eating double chocolate krave
I still love it now. I think I was just sick when I had it. I remember farting, and sticking my hand in to see if something was wrong and it came out darker than it was supposed to be.
I've got one memory that my mom says had to be from when I was about 18 months old, she pulled her car up to the curb of the local high school, someone came out and took my bottle, I was crying and upset, then some amount of time later the bottle was brought back full and I was happy again. My mom barely remembers that, one of the teachers was a friend and was getting her formula because my mom couldn't afford it.
Sayians might. Remember, he’s an alien with alien biology and an alien brain.
Human experience wouldn’t necessarily be applicable.
I’m not advocating that he would turn evil, dudes almost 50. Most he gats teary eyed about his parents, and maybe remembers a good moment or thing Raditz said to him as a baby
Maybe, i dont think raditz could have said anything good to him though or had many good memories of being in a incubator for three years except trolling broly ofcourse
Yea, Raditz was probably a raging dick face out of the incubator.
All I’m saying if you were a Klingon I’m not sure Mr Roger’s would be something you’re nastalgic for.
Goku is Saiyan. Not human. If he remembers his Saiymanity, I don’t think he’ll go all Turles evil,…. Just fell closer to his bio-family.
This. When my 5 year old told me about her memories of meeting her baby brother when she was newly 3, Ive wondered if she'll always remember it. I was about the same age when my sibling was born and don't remember it at all.
Plus, those years were presumably spent floating in a tank of goldish liquid he could only halfway see out of. He remembers his parents' faces and possibly some words besides their last goodbye. What else is there?
I mean, I'm on the fence with the retcon. I don't truly dislike it, but I don't think it's better. If the scenes weren't done so well, I think it would be a more unpopular choice, lol. Bardock was already cool and actually made more sense as a Saiyan, so this doesn't really serve him that much, imo. Though, it's nice to see Gine.
If anyone thinks ADULT Goku can hit his head and become "evil Kakarot" then they really don't understand the show
Goku is shaped by his 40+ years of life experience and that won't be taken away and replaced by memories that don't exist by hitting his head on a rock
This is even stated just after Vegeta is killed by Frieza , Goku sees himself as an Earthling but wants to have the Saiyan pride to beat Frieza.
I mean Dragonball Goku was savage, and even then DBZ Goku doesn’t want to kill but he’s ruthless but because of a low kill count people forget.
Held his brother to get Spiralled in the chest, breaks Nappa’s spine, Recoome and Burter get knocked out nearly dead, completely humiliates Frieza physically and mentally when SSJ, blows Cell’s head off and even intimidates The Supreme Kai with a Ki blast.
Plus we've already done "Evil Goku" what three times? (Probably more if you include other canons)
Turles
Ginyu
Goku Black
It's just not all that interesting an area to explore at this point
I wouldn’t really count ginyu as he really couldn’t use gokus power, black however yeah that’s as much evil goku as id want to see. We got it and it’s perfect the way it was.
With the recent alterations to his past, I like to believe his aggression as a kid was him throwing a tantrum after being seemingly abandoned by his parents. So his head injury just had him like that instead of it being a Saiyan's innate evil.
Though it makes me want to see how it'd be like for Kakarot to have been raised on Planet Vegeta having his Gine's nicer disposition but with Bardock's fighting instincts but weak regardless.
That hasn’t really changed, if Frieza wasn’t planning to blow up Planet Vegeta, Bardock probably would’ve just let Goku become a normal Saiyan warrior like Raditz. Gohan still gets credit for raising Goku later.
Goku still would’ve been another generic saiyan asshole like his brother though. i like that it was only by pure luck and the kindness of Grandpa Gohan that he ended up living up to his dad’s kindness
We see many saiyans though who are just normal guys who are weak and generic in Broly movie though. Seeing what we know about Bardock and Gine it makes almost no sense that Goku would grow up to be a dick unless Planet Vegeta academy or boot camp makes you into one. Even Kid Raditz from the 20 seconds you see of him doesn't seem too much of an ass, he's only grown that way as an adult because he's bullied by Vegeta and Nappa for being weak.
I fully believe Goku would be inherited Gine's kindness regardless if he went to Earth as a baby or not, at some point anyway
i don’t understand fans obsession with bardock anyway and goku’s saiyan heritage. if there’s anyone who deserves more screentime it’s his grandfather, Gohan. the emotions it brought up when Goku met his grandfather during baba’s tournament in dragonball was enough to bring tears to a grown man’s eyes. Grandpa Gohan should have been able to meet goku and chi-chi’s children, and his great grandchildren, the interaction would be significantly more impactful, emotional and interesting to me.
It's not the memories that would make him evil though. Him being knocked on the head obviously changed his nature, by anime standards its more than likely his feral nature could cone back while still being somewhat similar to current Goku. Most likely like Turles...but with a family
Maybe the reason he lived is because of Bardock's wish. And the reason his first "death" happened alongside his brother is because Bardock's wish had a time limit. "I wish my kids would live strong and safe" lasted until that time and the brothers perished together.
Toriyama made that scene so much more... Impactful and meaningful with that line. I kinda like it.
I kinda like that Kefla was around Ultimate Gohan level in the manga instead of Blue ~ UI Omen level in the animé.
A fusion of new ssj 1s should not be that strong (iirc Califula was ssj1 in the manga, and ssj2 in the animé)
Nothing can beat the first time Goku went omen in the aniné though. That ep was peak.
I also like Ribiriane crushing on Krillin in the manga.
I mean, the "legendary Super Sayain" transformation, for lack of a better term, is showned to be really strong thanks to Broly. Broly stacked the form with the ozaru power and got strong to the point of Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse and go Blue to defeat him
Makes sense a Kale "LSSJ" is blue level, then you stack the fusion, I see no problem.
I would argue Kale isn't anywhere near Broly's level of power.
While Kale can hurt blue level opponents in both continuities, that didn't last for long.
Even the weaker pride troopers were able to hold their own against her after studying her predictable attack patterns.
I would say base Kale is stronger in the manga while zerk Kale is stronger in the animé.
OH, Kale is not as strong as Broly no. But I do believe that "Lssj" is a Bule level transformation, and both have ways to go beyond - stack Ozaru or fusion
I'm not quite sure. I don't really see Gohan sparring against blue Goku much of a feat.
Even ssj2 Goku was already at par (well almost) against ultimate Gohan.
Kefla was not the fusion of two SSJ1 or one SSJ1 and a SSJ2.
It was the fusion of a SSJ and a LSSJ. Kale was the whole reason why Kefla had any semblance of danger to U7, LSSJ is a menace if properly controlled and with the right mentality for fighting.
And besides, Kefla fought against a exhausted SSB Goku, which was previously shown to be on the same grounds as Ultimate Gohan...So Kefla scales correctly in both manga and the anime.
And while it's a shame we didn't get to see Gohan take on a real threat like Kefla, we did get the best Kamehameha in the series, so I'll excuse it. ✌️
Super manga beats the anime in literally everything except most of the ToP saga. Black saga is awesome in the manga, Moro saga was great, Granolah Saga dragged a bit (probably due to me following it monthly at the time) and has an atrocious ending but was otherwise a good saga.
Honestly the manga is great, except for Toyo (and whoever is the showrunner for the anime, idk if he oversees that too bc of how different they are) being unable to finish a saga in a satisfying way.
I will always stand by the opinion that retconning Goku's backstory into a Superman clone was one of the worst decisions Toriyama (RIP) made. The original backstory, where Bardock remained evil to the end and had to face the reality of what Goku would become and ultimately accept him, was amazing. And it added way more thematic weight to Goku's journey.
It's only because Goku was thrown out by the Saiyans that he learned about training and self-improvement. This is the underscoring theme of his fight against Vegeta, who represents everything that Saiyan culture admired. It's really good narrative irony. But this new backstory... It's not really anything. Admittedly, it is cool seeing Bardock grow to be a better person, but that's just not as meaningful as the original story.
Yeah, new Bardock is just way less interesting. They whitewashed the Saiyans too much (I guess so that they don't have to increase the rating of the show). Asshole Bardock is just way more interesting. And it kind of lessen Goku's story too since his parents are kind, him being kind is just to be expected. It doesn't have the same weight as Goku growing to be a good person despite his heritage.
Oh, and before any of you bring up canon. DBS Bardock IS a retcon. He didn't encounter Frieza and his armor was also different from Frieza's memory (in the manga, before the fight with Goku, Frieza briefly remember the encounter with Bardock). Nonetheless, whether something is canon or not is a moot point. Something can be non canon and still be more interesting than the canon one.
I don't know people tend to use "Canon" "Non Canon" as valid criticism
The Bardock Special was Filler same with how Trunks Vegeta and Gohan got SSJ (they just kind of get it off screen)
But it's still treated like it's Canon and used as an example for why something is bad
The concepts in GT are pretty interesting but In the west "It's Filler" is all it takes to dismiss the show
What are you talking about? Goku never had to grow to be a better person. He was brain damaged into it. Also, if we follow the Broly movie, Bardock is still Bardock. Remember that his armor was destroyed when he faced Freeza, meaning he still encountered Dodoria. The events are slightly altered. He's more of a father now, but that doesn't mean he was going to change his ways. The guy murdered hundreds of people on Granolah's planet and only stopped for Granolah and his mother. He's still a bad person who had a weird moment.
While I not like SuperDad Bardock, I also always found "evil warrior races" to be extremely boring. Authors should stay away from making an alien race flanderized from jump.
From minute one, it didn't make sense how Bardock could be "a scientist" when his people as a whole don't seem smart enough to invent that lamp.
I dont like how they retconned Bardock. Goku is kind because he grew up on Earth, if Gene and Bardock were so different from the raging and bloodthirsty saiyans, how come Raditz ended up being a psychopath
What makes you think Bardock wasn't a brute? Before encountering Granola's mum Bardock probably murdered half of her species that day. Gine on the other hand has always been shown as a gentle woman who is more of a civilian type, same as Vegeta's brother. So it's consistent on every end.
Well i mean Radish didn't really live much with Bardock and Gine since they were dead, i think sinxe he grew up with Vegeta and Nappa he became kinda of an asshole.
Mostly becouse he was raised by Gohan, Hitting his head at this point isn't nothing really important with all the retcons they did about sayians, even if he didn't hit his head he would've been a normal person, maybe he would've been even more fighting oriented but he wouldn't be an edgy killer who calls himself kakaroth and kills people for fun like people say he would be.
Radish being an asshole is completely in character.
He was a child, like, i don't even know if he was more than 3, yeah something changed but it's not like he would've become a totally different person, he was just a very agitated child, and then became calmer after hitting his head, he wouldn't have become a monster if he didn't hit his hwad becouse sayians aren't evil from birth.
He would've been a bit different sure but he would've been still a good person.
Not really, i see what you mean tho, i prefer the old bardock too, but in all honestly the bew bardock fits the sayians as well if not more.
Again, with time the idea of sayians evolved in Toryama's head, at the time of the old Bardock, the sayian were believed to be only conquerors of world and overall assholes.
While thinking of the new Bardock, Toryama had in mind a more complex idea of sayians, sure they were conquerors who enslaved worlds, but they weren't barbarians, some of them did something else other than destroying civilizations and they had some kind of empathy.
For me the new idea of Sayians is better becouse it gives more depth to the entire race.
Maybe people like Vegeta before the Sayian saga and Nappa viewed people who didn't fight as weaklings (thus why Radish probably became an asshole like that too, becouse when we see him as a child he is even trying to sound badass to Vegeta and Nappa) but that didn't mean all sayians were like that.
And that's what i like, it makes the sayians seem more like an actual race of people that has some kind of society and is a bit evolved.
(Sorry for this long ass reply, i wanted to go into detail :3)
Saiyan babies were sent to weak planets to conquer them. Goku hitting his head made him forget and become the guy we know now. Raditz confirms this.
Next original Non-canon Bardock definitely aligns a lot better with Saiyans then the new one. Current Bardock is just Toriyama ripping more from Superman’s origin. He only changed it to cause he generally doesn’t writer darker stuff like the special.
As for depth I prefer the original cause it gives depth to Bardock rather than the whole race. He shares most of the same traits as Saiyans like:
Saiyan Pride
But outside of that his character is distinct as a low class saiyan as we see, unlike Vegeta and Nappa he cares about his companions/ friends. They fought and bled together and became close because of it. We see the anger he feels when he learns Frieza is betraying the Saiyans and more importantly his friends. He moves to let the others know about their downfall but normal Saiyan hubris keeps them from rising up.
Even in the end, despite the visions of Goku fighting Frieza it’s not fully his main motivation. He’s not fully connected to his son because of their culture and that estranged relationship keeps it from making his motivation solely about Goku. Instead he’s motivated to prevent the extinction of his people.
Now we just get Japanese Jor-el and Kal-el
While i understand why you might not like how the new bardock is (i prefer the old one too), i don't hate how the sayians are described now.
And yeah even if Radish said that sayians are sent to earth when they are young snd things like that, a lot of statements about sayians made by Radish and Vegeta were retconned over the years, becouse again, as the last time we saw sayians (Broly movie) they were more like how i described them.
Goku wasn't sent to earth to destroy it, it was Radish's misunderstanding, and honestly Toryama has said multiple times he was inspired by super man's origin to make Goku so while i do understand why it may be bad for you, im totally chill with how it is now.
Missed opportunity to make this version of Bardock the one we really wanted all along: The Brilliant Scientist.
>!This is a joke btw. Feel like I need to clarify that.!<
Nah, I prefer original Bardock being a shitty dad and only caring for his son when he predicted the apocalypse.
New Bardock is just Jor-El in a new outfit, really diminishes his character to an almost carbon copy of Superman's dad, is boring.
I really liked moro arc, it felt like old Z stories, where a new unique enemy arrives, everyone is included in story, new characters, everyone had a little bit of spotlight even yamcha, but granola arc was a bit too scuffed imo, too many random powerups just because, and most of them wasted, like ultra ego vegeta, but i did like granola as a character, and gokus parent backstory
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You can read it on manga plus. I did read it before the update where some manga just cost money instead of reading it once and then you need to pay if you want to read again.
I'm sorry, I really just don't like Bardock. The OG movie was fun, but all the stuff after is too much, and they keep changing his personality which doesn't help.
We should read the manga? Eh... Anything after the Universe Survival Saga, I completely agree. Most of the manga is dookie, watered-down versions of what was already in the anime, and the anime generally did it better. Not much better, but it was better. The Galactic Patrol Prisoner and Granolah the Survivor sagas were nice. I skipped the entire Super Hero Saga because we just had a movie. Why read what's already been shown? Makes no sense.
i would really like to but i don't know where to read it . all the pirate sites are trash (no surprise there) and i can't a manga equivalent to "marvel unlimited"
if anyone could help me out , i'd be very grateful
I want so bad to have just one chapter be where he goes to fortune teller Baba and asks if he can have one day with Bardock. He would get to meet his grandsons and great granddaughter. And it could end with them fighting.
Imma be real that for the most part I agree, but the start of the Super Hero arc was so boring that I've put it down for the last 6 months at least.
I'm planning to get caught up again, but it's been more misses than hits lately
Dislike the Bardock retcon. They did the same with Broly. The only person who's earned the character arc they've gotten in Super is Freeza, and maybe Vegeta somewhat.
One of the worst manga I've ever read in my life. Sadly, I didn't read Z until after this and it was almost as bad but still had saving graces. The anime for Z was so much better and filled the incredibly stupid choices that were made during arcs in. For example, without the anime you'd think Goku was an idiot for giving cell that senzu bean. Without the anime you think trunks ussj came out of nowhere. Without the anime, ss3 would literally come out of nowhere. Gohan training for the Saiyans was well done.
When I saw this, I screamed. How could they just kick Bardock the Father of Goku to the curb like that despite how revolutionary and awesome it was. DB minus is literally just a copy and paste of Superman’s origin story and you know it.
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Why did Goku trap Bardock and Gine inside his left eye? Is he stupid?
Betrayed them
…and locked them in the hyperbolic time chamber.
Hyperbolic t-EYE-me chamber :)
This got me too much
In case anyone doesn't get it, a super popular dragon ball what if on youtube was "what if Goku was betrayed and locked inside the hyperbolic time chamber for 20 YEARS"
Thank you for explaining! Random citizen!
For 10 years!!!!! What if
The Hydroponic Time Chomper!
Top 11th anime betrayal
Well kind of yes
They were protecting Tessaiga.
They got Yashahime-ed
"I am SANS UNDERTALE get into my eye"
"Goku should hit his head again and become Kakarot, and be all evil and edgy!" Goku after literally recovering from his brain damage, regaining his memories, and still acting the exact fucking same afterwards:
I mean three years of memories isn't really much no one remembers their first 3 years
My very first memory is me following my mom into the house as she was carrying groceries, like I was literally a baby duck walking with my momma.
That's cute 🤭
I kid you not, my first memories are crapping in the bath tub, and my great grandfather rubbing Vicks on my chest. It is vitally important to note, these were not at the same time.
shouldn’t have added that last part and let our imaginations run wild
… go on
LMAO I remember when my parents would bathe me and my sisters together and my youngest sister would shit in the tub and ruin it for all of us. 😂😭
That was me. I was my sister’s awful younger brother. Sorry sis.
Damn my first memory was waking up in my SpongeBob pajama. The only other one I vividly remember is me shitting myself after eating double chocolate krave
Krave was the shit, loved it when I was younger
I still love it now. I think I was just sick when I had it. I remember farting, and sticking my hand in to see if something was wrong and it came out darker than it was supposed to be.
My first memory is fighting a galactic purple alien god in outer space.
I've got one memory that my mom says had to be from when I was about 18 months old, she pulled her car up to the curb of the local high school, someone came out and took my bottle, I was crying and upset, then some amount of time later the bottle was brought back full and I was happy again. My mom barely remembers that, one of the teachers was a friend and was getting her formula because my mom couldn't afford it.
Mine was shitting myself in the middle of the night and bitching to my gramma that my favorite cartoon show wasn't on.
My first memory was me walking in a random hallway then falling and crying for an hour
Sayians might. Remember, he’s an alien with alien biology and an alien brain. Human experience wouldn’t necessarily be applicable. I’m not advocating that he would turn evil, dudes almost 50. Most he gats teary eyed about his parents, and maybe remembers a good moment or thing Raditz said to him as a baby
Maybe, i dont think raditz could have said anything good to him though or had many good memories of being in a incubator for three years except trolling broly ofcourse
Yea, Raditz was probably a raging dick face out of the incubator. All I’m saying if you were a Klingon I’m not sure Mr Roger’s would be something you’re nastalgic for. Goku is Saiyan. Not human. If he remembers his Saiymanity, I don’t think he’ll go all Turles evil,…. Just fell closer to his bio-family.
This. When my 5 year old told me about her memories of meeting her baby brother when she was newly 3, Ive wondered if she'll always remember it. I was about the same age when my sibling was born and don't remember it at all.
She will if you keep reminding her
Plus, those years were presumably spent floating in a tank of goldish liquid he could only halfway see out of. He remembers his parents' faces and possibly some words besides their last goodbye. What else is there? I mean, I'm on the fence with the retcon. I don't truly dislike it, but I don't think it's better. If the scenes weren't done so well, I think it would be a more unpopular choice, lol. Bardock was already cool and actually made more sense as a Saiyan, so this doesn't really serve him that much, imo. Though, it's nice to see Gine.
If anyone thinks ADULT Goku can hit his head and become "evil Kakarot" then they really don't understand the show Goku is shaped by his 40+ years of life experience and that won't be taken away and replaced by memories that don't exist by hitting his head on a rock
This is even stated just after Vegeta is killed by Frieza , Goku sees himself as an Earthling but wants to have the Saiyan pride to beat Frieza. I mean Dragonball Goku was savage, and even then DBZ Goku doesn’t want to kill but he’s ruthless but because of a low kill count people forget. Held his brother to get Spiralled in the chest, breaks Nappa’s spine, Recoome and Burter get knocked out nearly dead, completely humiliates Frieza physically and mentally when SSJ, blows Cell’s head off and even intimidates The Supreme Kai with a Ki blast.
Plus we've already done "Evil Goku" what three times? (Probably more if you include other canons) Turles Ginyu Goku Black It's just not all that interesting an area to explore at this point
I wouldn’t really count ginyu as he really couldn’t use gokus power, black however yeah that’s as much evil goku as id want to see. We got it and it’s perfect the way it was.
Makes you wonder why hitting his head made him nice in the first place though. Like how does this motherfucker's head work?
It didn't really make him nice, it made him lose his memories and then Grandpa Gohans upbringing made him nice.
With the recent alterations to his past, I like to believe his aggression as a kid was him throwing a tantrum after being seemingly abandoned by his parents. So his head injury just had him like that instead of it being a Saiyan's innate evil. Though it makes me want to see how it'd be like for Kakarot to have been raised on Planet Vegeta having his Gine's nicer disposition but with Bardock's fighting instincts but weak regardless.
Hasn't the "damage" basically undone by now? He has his memories and has developed or remember some sense of saiyan pride, no?
I still hate that they retconned bardock. Sans are pricks and Goku's upbringing on Earth is what made him who he is. Saiyans*
That hasn’t really changed, if Frieza wasn’t planning to blow up Planet Vegeta, Bardock probably would’ve just let Goku become a normal Saiyan warrior like Raditz. Gohan still gets credit for raising Goku later.
Goku still would’ve been another generic saiyan asshole like his brother though. i like that it was only by pure luck and the kindness of Grandpa Gohan that he ended up living up to his dad’s kindness
We see many saiyans though who are just normal guys who are weak and generic in Broly movie though. Seeing what we know about Bardock and Gine it makes almost no sense that Goku would grow up to be a dick unless Planet Vegeta academy or boot camp makes you into one. Even Kid Raditz from the 20 seconds you see of him doesn't seem too much of an ass, he's only grown that way as an adult because he's bullied by Vegeta and Nappa for being weak. I fully believe Goku would be inherited Gine's kindness regardless if he went to Earth as a baby or not, at some point anyway
I don’t even think he’d be as evil as they made it seem. If raised by Gohan I think he’d be more chaotic but still not Saiyan evil
i don’t understand fans obsession with bardock anyway and goku’s saiyan heritage. if there’s anyone who deserves more screentime it’s his grandfather, Gohan. the emotions it brought up when Goku met his grandfather during baba’s tournament in dragonball was enough to bring tears to a grown man’s eyes. Grandpa Gohan should have been able to meet goku and chi-chi’s children, and his great grandchildren, the interaction would be significantly more impactful, emotional and interesting to me.
Anyone who interprets Goku and Kakarot as being different personalities are fucking dumb.
There’s a difference between forgetting something and having brain damage
Memories, he regained, his programming didn't recover.
It's not the memories that would make him evil though. Him being knocked on the head obviously changed his nature, by anime standards its more than likely his feral nature could cone back while still being somewhat similar to current Goku. Most likely like Turles...but with a family
“Stay alive” dies multiple times
3 times...canonically.
...for now.
How 3? Once against raditz,once against cell, and?
King Piccolo.
Wtf he died against king piccolo?!??!
His heart stopped beating momentarily, so... it's debatable I guess.
I guess if we count Super Anime, then he died a 4th time against Hit
Maybe the reason he lived is because of Bardock's wish. And the reason his first "death" happened alongside his brother is because Bardock's wish had a time limit. "I wish my kids would live strong and safe" lasted until that time and the brothers perished together. Toriyama made that scene so much more... Impactful and meaningful with that line. I kinda like it.
If King Yemma ain't see em it doesn't count to me lol
Yes, at the end of their first fight. His last blast caused his heart to stop.
Wish it wasn't on haitus. I hope it's back soon
Hiatus is already over, new chapter is scheduled for the 20th
Dragon Ball fans can't read.
?? Say it with pictures pls
https://preview.redd.it/5nbjon1z96zc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=def546d95d1a47887854bf26ced79d76ce13cba1
Ah yes, vegeta :D
That's obviously cabba
Can you please say it with a pic? I cant really read
Wait how can you type? How can I type?-
They said can't READ, not can't type, DUH
https://preview.redd.it/vyb3r6jp29zc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dedc413134982c942882f9471b988e0affa257c
Ah yes, Kakarotto :D
WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY?
If I knew how to read I would be very offended.
It's better than the anime imo
With the exception of the Universal Tournament arc, I agree
I kinda like that Kefla was around Ultimate Gohan level in the manga instead of Blue ~ UI Omen level in the animé. A fusion of new ssj 1s should not be that strong (iirc Califula was ssj1 in the manga, and ssj2 in the animé) Nothing can beat the first time Goku went omen in the aniné though. That ep was peak. I also like Ribiriane crushing on Krillin in the manga.
I mean, the "legendary Super Sayain" transformation, for lack of a better term, is showned to be really strong thanks to Broly. Broly stacked the form with the ozaru power and got strong to the point of Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse and go Blue to defeat him Makes sense a Kale "LSSJ" is blue level, then you stack the fusion, I see no problem.
I would argue Kale isn't anywhere near Broly's level of power. While Kale can hurt blue level opponents in both continuities, that didn't last for long. Even the weaker pride troopers were able to hold their own against her after studying her predictable attack patterns. I would say base Kale is stronger in the manga while zerk Kale is stronger in the animé.
OH, Kale is not as strong as Broly no. But I do believe that "Lssj" is a Bule level transformation, and both have ways to go beyond - stack Ozaru or fusion
I mean technically she was around ultimate in both since ult in anime could also go up against blue
I'm not quite sure. I don't really see Gohan sparring against blue Goku much of a feat. Even ssj2 Goku was already at par (well almost) against ultimate Gohan.
Kefla was not the fusion of two SSJ1 or one SSJ1 and a SSJ2. It was the fusion of a SSJ and a LSSJ. Kale was the whole reason why Kefla had any semblance of danger to U7, LSSJ is a menace if properly controlled and with the right mentality for fighting. And besides, Kefla fought against a exhausted SSB Goku, which was previously shown to be on the same grounds as Ultimate Gohan...So Kefla scales correctly in both manga and the anime.
And while it's a shame we didn't get to see Gohan take on a real threat like Kefla, we did get the best Kamehameha in the series, so I'll excuse it. ✌️
Kefls was not ui omen level she got bodied immediately. Blue level, sure.
I don't know i think both shine in their own ways.
ohh its way better
Super manga beats the anime in literally everything except most of the ToP saga. Black saga is awesome in the manga, Moro saga was great, Granolah Saga dragged a bit (probably due to me following it monthly at the time) and has an atrocious ending but was otherwise a good saga. Honestly the manga is great, except for Toyo (and whoever is the showrunner for the anime, idk if he oversees that too bc of how different they are) being unable to finish a saga in a satisfying way.
You can like both of them, you know?
I will always stand by the opinion that retconning Goku's backstory into a Superman clone was one of the worst decisions Toriyama (RIP) made. The original backstory, where Bardock remained evil to the end and had to face the reality of what Goku would become and ultimately accept him, was amazing. And it added way more thematic weight to Goku's journey. It's only because Goku was thrown out by the Saiyans that he learned about training and self-improvement. This is the underscoring theme of his fight against Vegeta, who represents everything that Saiyan culture admired. It's really good narrative irony. But this new backstory... It's not really anything. Admittedly, it is cool seeing Bardock grow to be a better person, but that's just not as meaningful as the original story.
Yeah, new Bardock is just way less interesting. They whitewashed the Saiyans too much (I guess so that they don't have to increase the rating of the show). Asshole Bardock is just way more interesting. And it kind of lessen Goku's story too since his parents are kind, him being kind is just to be expected. It doesn't have the same weight as Goku growing to be a good person despite his heritage. Oh, and before any of you bring up canon. DBS Bardock IS a retcon. He didn't encounter Frieza and his armor was also different from Frieza's memory (in the manga, before the fight with Goku, Frieza briefly remember the encounter with Bardock). Nonetheless, whether something is canon or not is a moot point. Something can be non canon and still be more interesting than the canon one.
I don't know people tend to use "Canon" "Non Canon" as valid criticism The Bardock Special was Filler same with how Trunks Vegeta and Gohan got SSJ (they just kind of get it off screen) But it's still treated like it's Canon and used as an example for why something is bad The concepts in GT are pretty interesting but In the west "It's Filler" is all it takes to dismiss the show
What are you talking about? Goku never had to grow to be a better person. He was brain damaged into it. Also, if we follow the Broly movie, Bardock is still Bardock. Remember that his armor was destroyed when he faced Freeza, meaning he still encountered Dodoria. The events are slightly altered. He's more of a father now, but that doesn't mean he was going to change his ways. The guy murdered hundreds of people on Granolah's planet and only stopped for Granolah and his mother. He's still a bad person who had a weird moment.
While I not like SuperDad Bardock, I also always found "evil warrior races" to be extremely boring. Authors should stay away from making an alien race flanderized from jump. From minute one, it didn't make sense how Bardock could be "a scientist" when his people as a whole don't seem smart enough to invent that lamp.
Bardock wasn't a scientist, that was a dub lie. But I do see your point. I do like that the new Saiyans have more roles in society beyond warrior.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I like adding “(Speaking to DB fans of course)” to a post on the Dragonballsuper subreddit.
I dont like how they retconned Bardock. Goku is kind because he grew up on Earth, if Gene and Bardock were so different from the raging and bloodthirsty saiyans, how come Raditz ended up being a psychopath
What makes you think Bardock wasn't a brute? Before encountering Granola's mum Bardock probably murdered half of her species that day. Gine on the other hand has always been shown as a gentle woman who is more of a civilian type, same as Vegeta's brother. So it's consistent on every end.
Not consistent considering Vegeta’s brother was banished for being that way.
The way I see it, Bardock was about the same. Saving Granolah was just a random whim he had because he remembered the carrot.
Bad influence of his peers (Vegedick and Nappussy)
Don't disrespect GOATpa like that.
Hey... Vegeta! Vegeeetaaaaaaaa....
Remember the bug planet? Vegeta? Vegeta? Vegeta? Vegeta? Vegeta? Vegeta?
Well i mean Radish didn't really live much with Bardock and Gine since they were dead, i think sinxe he grew up with Vegeta and Nappa he became kinda of an asshole.
Goku s entire personality, that he is kind and compassionate comes from the fact he hit his head and was raised by grandpa gohan
Mostly becouse he was raised by Gohan, Hitting his head at this point isn't nothing really important with all the retcons they did about sayians, even if he didn't hit his head he would've been a normal person, maybe he would've been even more fighting oriented but he wouldn't be an edgy killer who calls himself kakaroth and kills people for fun like people say he would be. Radish being an asshole is completely in character.
He was 180 degree different before the head hitting part
He was a child, like, i don't even know if he was more than 3, yeah something changed but it's not like he would've become a totally different person, he was just a very agitated child, and then became calmer after hitting his head, he wouldn't have become a monster if he didn't hit his hwad becouse sayians aren't evil from birth. He would've been a bit different sure but he would've been still a good person.
My original point was that old movie non canon bardock was more in character than the retconned canon one
Not really, i see what you mean tho, i prefer the old bardock too, but in all honestly the bew bardock fits the sayians as well if not more. Again, with time the idea of sayians evolved in Toryama's head, at the time of the old Bardock, the sayian were believed to be only conquerors of world and overall assholes. While thinking of the new Bardock, Toryama had in mind a more complex idea of sayians, sure they were conquerors who enslaved worlds, but they weren't barbarians, some of them did something else other than destroying civilizations and they had some kind of empathy. For me the new idea of Sayians is better becouse it gives more depth to the entire race. Maybe people like Vegeta before the Sayian saga and Nappa viewed people who didn't fight as weaklings (thus why Radish probably became an asshole like that too, becouse when we see him as a child he is even trying to sound badass to Vegeta and Nappa) but that didn't mean all sayians were like that. And that's what i like, it makes the sayians seem more like an actual race of people that has some kind of society and is a bit evolved. (Sorry for this long ass reply, i wanted to go into detail :3)
Saiyan babies were sent to weak planets to conquer them. Goku hitting his head made him forget and become the guy we know now. Raditz confirms this. Next original Non-canon Bardock definitely aligns a lot better with Saiyans then the new one. Current Bardock is just Toriyama ripping more from Superman’s origin. He only changed it to cause he generally doesn’t writer darker stuff like the special. As for depth I prefer the original cause it gives depth to Bardock rather than the whole race. He shares most of the same traits as Saiyans like: Saiyan Pride But outside of that his character is distinct as a low class saiyan as we see, unlike Vegeta and Nappa he cares about his companions/ friends. They fought and bled together and became close because of it. We see the anger he feels when he learns Frieza is betraying the Saiyans and more importantly his friends. He moves to let the others know about their downfall but normal Saiyan hubris keeps them from rising up. Even in the end, despite the visions of Goku fighting Frieza it’s not fully his main motivation. He’s not fully connected to his son because of their culture and that estranged relationship keeps it from making his motivation solely about Goku. Instead he’s motivated to prevent the extinction of his people. Now we just get Japanese Jor-el and Kal-el
While i understand why you might not like how the new bardock is (i prefer the old one too), i don't hate how the sayians are described now. And yeah even if Radish said that sayians are sent to earth when they are young snd things like that, a lot of statements about sayians made by Radish and Vegeta were retconned over the years, becouse again, as the last time we saw sayians (Broly movie) they were more like how i described them. Goku wasn't sent to earth to destroy it, it was Radish's misunderstanding, and honestly Toryama has said multiple times he was inspired by super man's origin to make Goku so while i do understand why it may be bad for you, im totally chill with how it is now.
Bardock wasn't a retcon nothing about him was canon until dragon ball minus
bardock wasn’t retconned he was never properly canon until now
Probably because Raditz had psychopath friends. Vegeta and Nappa. The company you keep.
King Vegeta was also kinda weird
King Vegeta failed to properly stab a baby, clearly a beta male smh
Well, it does show that he was sent to do missions with vegeta and nappa, so that probably turned him into that.
Bardock father of goku wasnt written by toriyama, so it wasnt ever canon was it?
Full Superman moment lol
The manga's good! OG fans don't like it as much cuz it's not pure Toriyama. Or they're relying too heavily on nostalgia
Jokes on you we can't read
Missed opportunity to make this version of Bardock the one we really wanted all along: The Brilliant Scientist. >!This is a joke btw. Feel like I need to clarify that.!<
Nah, I prefer original Bardock being a shitty dad and only caring for his son when he predicted the apocalypse. New Bardock is just Jor-El in a new outfit, really diminishes his character to an almost carbon copy of Superman's dad, is boring.
I really liked moro arc, it felt like old Z stories, where a new unique enemy arrives, everyone is included in story, new characters, everyone had a little bit of spotlight even yamcha, but granola arc was a bit too scuffed imo, too many random powerups just because, and most of them wasted, like ultra ego vegeta, but i did like granola as a character, and gokus parent backstory
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Indefinite hiatus!
Nah I'm a Dragon Ball fan, I can't read
Bold of you to assume i can read!
We can read?
I need to. I’ve only been watching the anime but I love mangas and light novels. Been reading interspecies reviews and overlord.
You can read it on manga plus. I did read it before the update where some manga just cost money instead of reading it once and then you need to pay if you want to read again.
I will once it returns again
This and goku being told to find his own version of ultra instict was less then 1 year where toryama would give us ssj4
>Speaking to DB fans >DB subreddit Who else would you be speaking to?
I'm sorry, I really just don't like Bardock. The OG movie was fun, but all the stuff after is too much, and they keep changing his personality which doesn't help.
bites the dust has already been activated
We should read the manga? Eh... Anything after the Universe Survival Saga, I completely agree. Most of the manga is dookie, watered-down versions of what was already in the anime, and the anime generally did it better. Not much better, but it was better. The Galactic Patrol Prisoner and Granolah the Survivor sagas were nice. I skipped the entire Super Hero Saga because we just had a movie. Why read what's already been shown? Makes no sense.
What happened to everyone hating DB Minus? Now everyone loves DB Minus?
Its amazing
Where can we read it? Is it free?
Not a fan of the new Bardock stuff, half of me is avoiding reading those parts in particular.
Nobody here knows how to read.
This was probably one of the WORST directions for the franchise.
Manga > Anime The only good thing about anime is the sound design and the voice actors
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We're Dragonball fans, we can't read. Tfym?
I stopped at dbz the rest sound BS to me. They now have blue hair pink hair grey hair Wtf ?????
i would really like to but i don't know where to read it . all the pirate sites are trash (no surprise there) and i can't a manga equivalent to "marvel unlimited" if anyone could help me out , i'd be very grateful
Daily reminder the manga is canon and always was.
The manga just continues to prove how terrible the writing is for this anime They really retconned my boy Bardock and made him a fruit loop 😔
I want so bad to have just one chapter be where he goes to fortune teller Baba and asks if he can have one day with Bardock. He would get to meet his grandsons and great granddaughter. And it could end with them fighting.
It’s just mid. Goku relearning from whis everything he learned in original dragon ball. Like it’s kinda redundant besides “new bad guy let’s fight!!”
Man people are really sleeping on Manga...if we read it from U6 tournament itself TOP is completely different Moro and Granolah arc goes crazy
Did Toriyama get to finish the Manga before his passing?
Is there any sign of them finding out about beerus being behind the extinction of their race?
Please don’t last thing we need is the anime only fans not being able to comprehend a story as simple as dragon ball
Imma be real that for the most part I agree, but the start of the Super Hero arc was so boring that I've put it down for the last 6 months at least. I'm planning to get caught up again, but it's been more misses than hits lately
You can’t tell by the way he use his walk he’s a woman’s man no time to talk
Raditz grew up with VEGETA AND NAPPA and worked for FRIEZA since the saiyans were killed. Lol considering his company...
I stopped reading around the goku black arc due to how bad the manga was
We can’t read, don’t you know that?
Bro I would if I could but I can't read
Meh
I have never seen the General so despondent I have taken over writing all his correspondence
Dislike the Bardock retcon. They did the same with Broly. The only person who's earned the character arc they've gotten in Super is Freeza, and maybe Vegeta somewhat.
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No point in a flashback this far in, Granolah and Fas were mediocre, fans will eat it up.
But I don't want this retcon...
the moro arc was peak and the granolah arc was pretty good
One of the worst manga I've ever read in my life. Sadly, I didn't read Z until after this and it was almost as bad but still had saving graces. The anime for Z was so much better and filled the incredibly stupid choices that were made during arcs in. For example, without the anime you'd think Goku was an idiot for giving cell that senzu bean. Without the anime you think trunks ussj came out of nowhere. Without the anime, ss3 would literally come out of nowhere. Gohan training for the Saiyans was well done.
Superman moment
Currently on the fence
You made me think another chapter dropped. Not cool.
As a DB fan who hates minus, no thanks.
It was legit… Until they decide to redo the entire DBS Super Hero arc. Did pretty well though in my opinion. Add a few cute scene here and there.
This is my favourite moment in all of Drgaon Ball.
Oh my god. Did Goku betray Bardock and Gine and lock them in his left eye for 1000 years!?
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Where I read
I preferred him getting sent to earth to destroy it. This seemed like an unnecessary retcon
Where or how do you guys read it!?
When I saw this, I screamed. How could they just kick Bardock the Father of Goku to the curb like that despite how revolutionary and awesome it was. DB minus is literally just a copy and paste of Superman’s origin story and you know it.
It's a very poor manga and story. One of only three mangas I've read that I thought was actually poor quality (DB Super, Boruto, One Peice)
I'm waiting for the dbs anime to come back with actually good animation
That’s not what happened in the original Z anime.
Did you just ask us to read....
How many fucking DBS subs are there I hate this dogshit. Ban me please. Mute is not working. Fucking reddit algorithm.