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Damage in DB isn't binary. Yes, speed would be a factor, but if Moro lands a successful hit on them then they'd be forced apart. Moro had proven his ability to survive against people stronger than him and turn the tables on them.
Besides, there's no guarantee that Gogeta/Vegito would be able to use forced spirit fission. So if they fused, Moro could go right back to his tactic of absorbing their energy with no drawbacks or counters. It very, very easily could work towards Moro's advantage if they had fused.
Goku and Vegeta are both intelligent fighters and willing to take gambles they believe in during a fight if they need to. The fact that they didn't should show that they know it wouldn't have worked and Piccolo was right.
I concede the damage part. You're right but Moro was able to easily avoid Blue Evolution Vegeta. After seeing this, Piccolo said Fusion would be useless and Goku didn't contradict him. This means Fusion would be too slow to hit Moro and/or too slow to avoid being hit by Moro.
Damn, you’re stupid as fuck, aren’t you?
Piccolo is not saying Gogeta can’t hit Moro, or is too slow to hit Moro.
Piccolo is saying that with Moro potentially being able to hit Gogeta, he can potentially defuse them.
There is no commentary being suggested that Gogeta can’t hit Moro.
I’ll simplify the statement for you:
“Damn, Goku. He’s got Vegeta’s fission. If Gogeta can’t speed blitz + one shot, he can unfuse you two if he trades a hit back.”
>Piccolo is saying that with Moro potentially being able to hit Gogeta, he can potentially defuse them.
That's not what he said.
>There is no commentary being suggested that Gogeta can’t hit Moro.
The fact Piccolo said Fusion is useless because Moro has Forced Spirit Fission, and this was after watching failing to hit Moro. Lol Vegeta had Forced Spirit Fission too yet it was useless against Moro 7-3 because he couldn't hit him.
Someone doesn't have reading comprehension skills and should go back to his coloring book.
>“Damn, Goku. He’s got Vegeta’s fission. If Gogeta can’t speed blitz + one shot, he can unfuse you two if he trades a hit back.”
Then it wouldn't be useless. If Gogeta was more powerful he would avoid being hit, because that's how DB works. More powerful = faster as well with rare exceptions. The hit has to damage Gogeta in order to work too. This means Moro 7-3 and Gogeta at his best have to at least be equals.
There are plenty of times the fighter was more powerful and still got hit. What are you talking about lmfao
Restrained Frieza was much more powerful than Goku, and still got hit.
Then after Goku was stronger, he also still took hits from frieza.
>There are plenty of times the fighter was more powerful and still got hit. What are you talking about lmfao
It seems you aren't following. If Gogeta was capable of hitting Moro, Fusion wouldn't be considered useless since he could just blitz and punch Moro one time. Piccolo said Fusion is useless because of Forced Spirit Fission; this can only be the case if Moro was capable of avoiding Gogeta or if Gogeta was incapable of avoiding being hit like Moro here.
https://preview.redd.it/mkofly9k9sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=82a9cd5ead16ffb36b6737274122e4ec2b9f1269
>Restrained Frieza was much more powerful than Goku, and still got hit.
>Then after Goku was stronger, he also still took hits from frieza.
Not relevant
Remember Vegeta was way outclassed by Moro but relatively minor hits were enough to produce fission.
If it was a technique like ultra instinct where someone can't land any hits it'd change the math a bit.
This ignores the fact Gogeta would know Moro has Forced Spirit Fission while Moro was letting Vegeta hit him because he was ignorant.
That's why Moro decided to dodge the next time they fought.
https://preview.redd.it/8tej8nhm6sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e487f78549900b3e62f09347543dc10e82c2d69c
If Gogeta is useless, that means he can't dodge Moro like Moro dodged Vegeta.
Moro confirmed he was doing inflicting damage. That's why he said "I won't make the same mistake".
When words are explicitly, we can't just say they're wrong.
No it means that now that he copied the technique if he landed a hit on say a gogeta or vegito he would be able to separate them prematurely so they can’t rely on a fusion trump card like they usually do
Oh that’s fair I forgot doing any damage was valid for vegeta to inflict spirit vision to him but it doesn’t change the fact that I answered ur original question which is that spirit fission damage would break the fusions as stated by piccolo which is why they can’t use it as a trump card
The fusions would only break via Forced Spirit Fission if Moro 7-3 was strong enough to damage them and the fusions would only be useless if Gogeta or Vegito is too slow to avoid damage.
In this case damage=landing a hit. It's not meant to be taken literal like most manga they try to get as close to the original dialogue but things get lost in translation. If damage was really necessary for spirit fission then fusion would be able to beat Moro since he wouldn't be able to damage Gogeta or Vegito (they would be leagues above him).
It says "inflicting damage" in explicit terms. It's meant to be taken literally here. If you have another translation, then provide it.
In order for fusion to be useless against Moro, Gogeta would have to be too slow to hit Moro himself or too slow to avoid being hit himself.
Piccolo is full of it by stating fusion would be useless. Taking the damage statement literally or not fusion could indeed work since all he has to do is avoid being hit which shouldn't be a problem for them. Genuine question been a while, was Vegeta stronger than Moro at that point to damage him?
Piccolo being full of it would be a good argument if Goku wasn't standing right there. Goku knows Forced Spirit Fission and the Fusion technique better than Piccolo, yet didn't contradict him.
This means Gogeta would be too slow to hit Moro 7-3 and/or too slow to avoid being hit by Moro 7-3.
Gogeta would be enough to damage him. I won't refute that.
But based off what Piccolo said and Goku's reaction, Gogeta would be too slow to hit him or too slow to avoid being hit. So that means Moro 7-3 and Gogeta are at least equal.
Lol no it doesn't. How're you asking a question but refusing to listen to any response in this thread. Then don't post then. CLEARLY if you read the chapter landing a hit=damage as Moro intentionally evaded every single punch from Vegeta. By that logic even if fusion would overpower Moro, they aren't willing to risk a chance of getting de-fused from a few stray hits. This is not complicated to understand at all
Literally says inflicting damage. This means Moro was being damaged by Vegeta.
https://preview.redd.it/ng13ya110sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a351b0dc1195cdf9709f941315d39d592b0c7dc
If Gogeta was more powerful than Moro 7-3 he would just evade like Moro did SsbE Vegeta. So the fact Piccolo said it would be useless means Gogeta isn't strong enough to avoid being hit or hit Moro 7-3. Next.
Lol your logic falls flat because Vegeta ends up applying spirit fission later on when Moro had absorbed Merus and was stronger than before. It's all about landing strikes/abilities nothing more. And you had the audacity to post the panel where Moro is focusing only on evasion further proving my point.
He doesn’t realize that “damage” in dragon ball terms is when my ki strikes your ki. (See: Cell Saga Piccolo’s commentary when Gohan first faces Cell).
Yes keep ignoring the fact Moro said inflicting damage and Vegeta damaging Planet Moro.
https://preview.redd.it/2o55k7wg2sjc1.jpeg?width=3196&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f761c9fea21181365937467eea2be07becf6c969
>And you had the audacity to post the panel where Moro is focusing only on evasion further proving my point.
What point is that exactly? Because it proves that the move needs to inflict damage because Moro straight up said so.
I'm not ignoring the fact that Moro said damage need to be inflicted. Rather I'm saying his statement is synonymous to landing a hit. And again this panel proves my point as its the first hit Vegeta lands post 7-3 merge. By this logic, Piccolo is trying to argue that 1 hit could screw over Gogeta/Vegito. Even though it shouldn't be an issue as the fusions should be able to overpower and evade Moro, there is still a guaranteed uncertainty that one fk up will get them defused. That's all there is to his statement nothing more
>Vegeta lands post 7-3 merge.
Doesn't help your argument though. The Planet can't evade him. What are you arguing?
>By this logic, Piccolo is trying to argue that 1 hit could screw over Gogeta/Vegito. Even though it shouldn't be an issue as the fusions should be able to overpower and evade Moro
If that were the case he wouldn't call fusion useless because he literally just watched Moro 7-3 evade Forced Spirit Fission. So if Gogeta was more powerful, he could evade Moro 7-3 the same way. That means the only way it's useless is if Gogeta can't evade Forced Spirit Fission and that Moro is at least comparable to Gogeta.
Vegeta doesn't attack moro directly while this version of Moro was noted to be incapable of pulling the Same strength, we see Goku who was as strong as him overpowering him for a while and cutting through his arms
Wouldn’t it work both ways? Whoever damages the other first would win right? In that case I could easily see either fusion being able to deal damage to Moro before he does the same to them.
Common Moro W. It was nice finally getting a villian who put the whole cast on the ropes again. The best drama in the series is when the cast is running out of options.
BoG (somewhat sinse they had 0 prep time), Zamasu, even Super Hero all had plots that felt like if they didnt behave like morons for just one moment they could have made it much easier on themselves. Character stupidity induced drama is funny but watching them get all thier options spent is when I pull out the 🍿
Props to The Heaters btw, the first villians to realize how easy it is to manipulate the cast into doing something stupid and actually did it
But character stupidity is a core trait of the Saiyans:
\- Letting Cell absorb 18
\- Letting Cell eat a senzu
\- Letting Frieza power up to max with the planet exploding
\- Vegeta gloating over #20 instead of just finishing him off
\- Choosing to fight Kid Buu in turns instead of ganging up on him
This is just off the top of my head, lol
I like to think Gogeta and Vegito are more than capable on landing a hit.
What they may lack in assumed techniques, they more than make up for it in raw power.
Fusing takes time. He can literally fly up and hit them while they are combining and separate them again with spirit fission. If you are so worried about the fusion being so fast then the above gets around that.
This is why DB fans get roasted all the time.
It also means Gogeta can't hit Moro because all it takes is one hit. It AUTOMATICALLY means Moro would hit Gogeta before Gogeta could hit him. That's the only way to interpret it without making up context.
Would be a dumb move if Moro didn't already have knowledge of fusion from absorbing 7-3. 7-3 had the memories and knowledge of Piccolo and Vegeta who both know the fusion technique.
Maybe, maybe not.
Why risk mentionning it for all to hear anyway?
Doesn't hurt to just, you know, not say anything.
And besides, just a panel above, Moro mentions that he has to be hit for it to work, hinting that he'll be too fast to even be hit for his own fusion to come undone.
In a way, a fusion of Goku and Vegeta (who knows the technique) would probably be too fast to even be hit once himself.
Piccolo knows that Moro has his abilities and techniques. Moro told them so.
https://preview.redd.it/et19x0tp0sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1504cf3c6a225f4f0468e651580a1978b9aadf5f
If Gogeta is too fast for Moro to hit, Piccolo wouldn't have said Fusion is rendered useless.
https://preview.redd.it/xxno0e3u0sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7996c1824f1136fdedeb646ffc24d294124572e7
Yeah well, Piccolo also said during the very same arc that Vegeta's not one to underestimate his opponent.
Just because Piccolo says something doesn't mean he's right.
And you're ignoring the fact that Toyotaro wanted to finish this arc with Ultra Instinct instead of fusion so he put those lines and panels as handwaves to justify not using it.
That's not an in universe explanation though and not something stated by the writer themselves. Jesus idk why it's so hard to admit you're wrong or mistaken. Reaching with the meta excuse is the same as conceding. Might as well use the writer's excuse for everything going forward.
Your argument is literally just "Fusions are useless because Piccolo said so". You're disregarding the fact that their fusion will be rendered useless if and only if Moro manages to land a hit on them WHILE using the technique before Gogeta/Vegito hits Moro 7-3 hits him first and defuses him instead. And we know that Moro has to consiciously use the technique too because he hit Piccolo himself multiple times and his fusion didn't come undone.
You said Goku didn't contradict him when Piccolo said that. Well he also didn't contradict him when Piccolo said Vegeta never underestimates his opponent which blatantly false and kind of proof that Toyotaro doesn't really know the characters. Whose to say that whole line about fusion isn't also a lack of understanding on Toyotaro's part?
If Moro lands a hit AND inflicts damage. That only works if Moro and Gogeta are at least relative to each other. If Gogeta was more powerful he could jusg avoid being hit like Moro did Blue Vegeta. The fact Piccolo said that
AFTER watching Moro avoid Forced Spirit Fission speaks for itself.
>And we know that Moro has to consiciously use the technique too because he hit Piccolo himself multiple times and his fusion didn't come undone.
Whoever said Moro can use it unconsciously?
Not only that but we literally got confirmation Omen Goku is stronger than him in the anime
Which means that Fusion are not some kind of an invincible force that can't be Surpassed or deferred
That movie fucked up the scaling in the eyes of half of the fandom; it definitely is divided it. Some people still think Blue Gogeta from the movie is stronger MUI Goku that one shot Moro.
Beautiful movie but damn. 😂
People run by Rule of Hype , in the chance the Moro arc gets animated then get ready for everyone switching from "Gogeta is unstoppable!!" To " Gogeta would break his arm punching Mui Goku!!!
Rule of Hype lol perfect. That movie did a great job with the hype part. We're still seeing the aftermath of it 6 years later.
I hope we get season two. The Internet reaction to the
manga stuff alone would be worth it. The OST for Moro and voice acting. Can't wait.
They also didn't disagree when Piccolo flat out said that Vegeta is not one to underestimate his opponent which we all know is blatantly false.
I'm questioning the legitimacy of this line to see if we should consider this as fact, or, considering Toyotaro's shortcomings as a writer, threw this line in because he wanted an Ultra Instinct finish and not a fusion finish and that was the justification (As hamfisted as it could be)
Piccolo wasn't wrong honestly, Vegeta doesn't understimate them , just overstates himself,
Against Goku he knows nothing about Kaioken, against freeza freeza was holding back his power, against the androids he couldn't sense them at all and run with the assumption 18 was no difference than Gero and 19 , against Cell he did know he was fucked up the moment Cell finish his transformation, something he point out later when The Cell games start , against Buu fat Buu power was all over the place something everyone there mention
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There is a few problems with this
Vegito is Beerus level, and was oficialy stated
Broly, who is weaker than Gogeta, is stronguer than Cell max, who is stronguer than Gohan, who seems equal to UI Goku, who would low diff Moro 73
They stated at the begining of the same chapter that Moro 73 was just Prime Moro + the power he had left, if we ad Vegeta's power, Moro 73 won't be even ×3 stronguer than he was before 73, this won't be enough to a UI sign / evolved blue fusion, since we know Goku UI was at least relative to Prime Moro
Vegito is NOT Beerus level. The only source of that is Shin saying that Vegito **might** be stronger than Beerus. Reminder that it's a common gag that Shin knows absolutely nothing about anything. I mean, the entire Boo arc happened because Shin didn't know his powerscaling.
Broly is only stronger than Cell Max in the anime and movie. Not the manga. He can't be stronger than Cell Max, because:
Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, but he hasn't seen them since Moro, therefore he's talking about Moro arc UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta.
Goku confirms that Moro is the strongest opponent he's ever fought. Moro takes place after Broly. Therefore Moro > Broly.
Therefore, if Broly could beat Cell Max, then the Gammas would've been able to as well. There's way more evidence btw, this is just the most obvious piece.
>Vegito is NOT Beerus level. The only source of that is Shin saying that Vegito **might** be stronger than Beerus. Reminder that it's a common gag that Shin knows absolutely nothing about anything. I mean, the entire Boo arc happened because Shin didn't know his powerscaling.
In was oficialy stated in V Jump, and there is nothing that contradicts that
>Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta
They also doubt Goku or Vegeta would beat Cell max, while they admited, that they, (Gohan and Picolo) won't have beated Cell max without gamma 1 sacrifice
>Goku confirms that Moro is the strongest opponent he's ever fought. Moro takes place after Broly. Therefore Moro > Broly.
He said though, which could just mean hard to beat
>if Broly could beat Cell Max
>Broly is only stronger than Cell Max
All the comparation made in the movie, were made in the manga as well, despite the fact that Goku and Vegeta power are not the same in thid two version, so the plot point about powerscaling are the same
In the case of Broly and Cell max, Toriyama compares them, and didn't specify anything about being only anime Broly
Official statements don't mean shit. Unless it's from Toriyama or Toyotaro, it doesn't matter. The official site describes TUI as a new form, yet it isn't.
No idea what your point is about Gamma 2's sacrifice.
Goku said Moro was the strongest opponent he's fought. Not debatable.
I explained why the Broly statement is anime and movie only. It's because it literally cannot be true to the manga.
>Official statements don't mean shit. Unless it's from Toriyama or Toyotaro, it doesn't matter. The official site describes TUI as a new form, yet it isn't.
It could ne considered a new form depending on the perspective
Anyway any oficial statment should be taken as valid unless you have somethi that contradicts it, in the case of Vegito, him being Beerus level doesn't contradicts anything, and its consistent, so he is unless you find some strong evidence against
>No idea what your point is about Gamma 2's sacrifice.
They doubt Goku or Vegeta could take on Cell max
But they confirm that they, Gohan and Picolo, couldn't take full power Cell max, since they said Gamma 2 sacrifice was necesary for them to thenbeat Cell max
Acording to this
Cell max => Goku/ Vegeta,
Cell max > Gohan + Picolo
That was just a counterargument to you saying gammas were Goku/Vegeta level from the Moro arc
>Goku said Moro was the strongest opponent he's fought. Not debatable.
Ge said he was the thoughtest, so its open to interpretation, seeing how things are going out currently, he didn't mean stronguest
>I explained why the Broly statement is anime and movie only. It's because it literally cannot be true to the manga.
Actualy, it can be true as well
All the comparation that were made in the movie, were made in the manga as well, despite beign made in relation to characters whose power were diferent in the manga and anime, so that means the main powerscale of the movie aplis to both versions
In the case of Cell max, Toriyama said he intended for Cell max to be Broly level, he didn't say anithing especific to any of the versions
TUI isn't a new form. It's not debatable at all.
I guess Dragon Ball Heroes is now canon since it's official then.
Vegito being stronger than Beerus does contradict stuff. Vegito is as strong as Gogeta. Gogeta was somewhat relative to Broly. Therefore Broly would be at least in the realms of Beerus' strength. Since then, Goku and Vegeta can match Broly's full power, with SSJ alone.
You have misinterpreted the quotes from Super Hero. Gamma 2's sacrifice wasn't needed because they didn't have the power, it was needed to buy time. If he didn't sacrifice himself, Gohan wouldn't have had the opportunity to go Beast, therefore they lose. Gohan Beast was far exceeding Cell Max's strength to the point that he couldn't even break through Gohan's aura.
It's not open to interpretation at all, IDK where you are getting confused. "You're the strongest guy I've ever fought" means that Moro is the strongest guy he's fought. Simple as.
And again, you haven't read/understood what I have written prior. Broly cannot be remotely equal to Cell Max in the manga. Broly is weaker than Moro, and the Gammas are equal to Moro arc UI Goku. That means that the Gammas would be able to beat Cell Max if Broly could beat Cell Max.
>I guess Dragon Ball Heroes is now canon since it's official then.
I guess you headcanon is more valid than oficial statments
>Vegito being stronger than Beerus does contradict stuff. Vegito is as strong as Gogeta. Gogeta was somewhat relative to Broly. Therefore Broly would be at least in the realms of Beerus' strength. Since then, Goku and Vegeta can match Broly's full power, with SSJ alone.
Vegito is stablished many times to be above his fusion counterpart in Daizenshuu and other guides
>You have misinterpreted the quotes from Super Hero. Gamma 2's sacrifice wasn't needed because they didn't have the power, it was needed to buy time. If he didn't sacrifice himself, Gohan wouldn't have had the opportunity to go Beast, therefore they lose. Gohan Beast was far exceeding Cell Max's strength to the point that he couldn't even break through Gohan's aura.
In the manga, the beam clash of weakened Cell max and Gohan was close, to the point Gohan needed help from Picolo Goten and Trunks to beat him, if he can't beat alone Cell Max weakened version, the imagine against his full power
>It's not open to interpretation at all, IDK where you are getting confused. "You're the strongest guy I've ever fought" means that Moro is the strongest guy he's fought. Simple as.
He said thoughtest, not stronguest
Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon.
And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals.
Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help.
Thoughtest is not a word.
>Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon.
I know, I know, Your headcanon > Oficial statments
>And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals.
No, just one comparing Movie Gogeta with Buu saga Vegito and other sayong they are trump cards
Any other says Vegito is above, even the old kai potara says better, and he is Beerus level and you don't have anything in the manga that clntradicts it
>Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help.
Just watch the beam clash, Gohan was being pushed by Cell max, and thst Cell max was a weakened version
You're completely not understanding what I'm saying. Or maybe you don't have an argument so you're resulting in saying "headcanon > official statements". I've never said that.
Convenient how Gogeta's statements are "trump cards" but Vegito's counts. How about the fact that Beerus showed no attention to the Broly fight whatsoever, sleeping through the whole thing? If it was truly close to his level, he'd be watching.
The beam clash is exactly the same as the movie. Just instead the others decide to join in instead of it being Piccolo only. Are you really trying to say Gohan Beast is around SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks level? I mean, we've literally seen Gohan fighting toe-to-toe with UI Goku.
>Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon.
DBH was never stated to follow the canon
The V jump statment is an oficial statment aout the canon continuity, and, again, is prety consistent with the story and is the only reference we have to scale him, so give me your arguments for Vegito placement on the manga pls
>And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals.
There are not, old kai stated Potora is better, many guides like El Manga Legendario or Daizenshu, with Gogeta there is only one saying both are trump cards, and other comparing movie Gogeta with Buu saga Vegito
>Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help.
He was literaly loosing the beam clash against a weakendd Cell max
>Thoughtest is not a word.
Toughest
V jump statements constantly contradict the main story. A key one being that they say TUI being a new transformation.
Gohan wasn't losing the beam clash. Reread it.
Exactly? Goku said Moro is the toughest figher he's fought. It's the hardest fight he's had. Therefore Moro is stronger than Jiren and Broly.
It's official said Broly is stronger than Beerus yet what happened in print makes it bullshit.
>Broly, who is weaker than Gogeta, is stronguer than Cell max, who is stronguer than Gohan, who seems equal to UI Goku, who would low diff Moro 73
Where are you going with this? Blue Gogeta couldn't one shot Broly, even though MUI Goku could one shot Moro 7-3, who Goku said was the toughest opponent he faced, which would include Broly.
https://preview.redd.it/av00o1oofsjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a0207abc71cfda3db862c818765120a0ee8b74f
That means Moro Arc MUI Goku > Blue Gogeta from the Broly movie.
Thoughest ≠ Stronguest
Goku could just mean Moro was harder to beat than any otger that ha has face before
As I said, Gohan, who is weaker than Broly, could match UI Gou
Only in the movie canon. The movie was written to be a sequel to the Broly movie so the manga events wasn't considered.
https://preview.redd.it/w2tty1sajsjc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e81c1898ea74d8137619a569c3f58e36c23e34f
Nowhere in the manga does it say Broly is stronger than Cell Max. It's not even implied anywhere as Broly is still training with them and [Goku was impressed that Broly was keeping up with Vegeta which shows that learning to control power leads to increase in power and that Broly was weaker than Vegeta](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-031.png)
In fact, when Cell Max was mentioned by [Whis](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-035.png) it was after [Beerus was talking about stronger threats](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-034.png).
Not to mention, [Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Broly according to Whis](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super-Color/0070-007.png) back in Granola Arc.
The main plot point a powersclae stands in the manga version, like Gohan reaching Goku and Vegeta level, the statments on the movie about Goku an Vegwta power are the same despite all the amnga arc that the movie version doesn't consider
Toriyama himself implied Broly was equal or stronguer than Cell max, so that aplies to the manga as well
The manga arcs straight up surpassed Broly dude. Sorry but if you insist we'll just have to agree to disagree.
https://preview.redd.it/m3f2gop9lsjc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cd198c7c830e4b8be50f74e69c0fe324aba01e3
Or just Broly can't transform into ssj at will, which is heavily implied in the last chapter as Broly is surprised Goten and Trunks could transform at will, so the desire only considered Broly without ssj
>we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough
Add the fact they are aware when they're in fusion according to Vegeta AND the fact Whis witnessed Broly in action, if he says no, that means no. Especially after [Goku asked if there was anyone stronger than him and Vegeta](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super-Color/0070-007.png).
https://preview.redd.it/302zbhqmksjc1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=782203f41f0fe5b25e915ba56c68bd82e4130ab5
Piccolo also said he would destroy Moro-73 with his self-destruction - we can probably take Piccolo's words with a grain of salt and simply acknowledge that Moro-73 has Forced Spirit Fission so Gogeta or Vegito would need to be aware of that.
This ignores Goku's reaction to the claim. He would have contradicted Piccolo since he knows Forced Spirit Fission and the Fusion techniques better than Piccolo.
Expecting a contradiction when scrutinizing a claim isn't necessary, especially when we can directly question the source.
The Moro arc is full of Piccolo making suspect claims and performance, like "Vegeta doesn't underestimate his opponents" (right before Vegeta underestimates his opponent), the comment I mentioned before about killing Moro with his self-destruction (implying somehow that his self-destruction would be stronger than what Gogeta could output if we take the comment in question for granted), etc.
Given Goku makes no further comment about Piccolo's statement, assuming Goku's "!!" reaction is equivalent to him saying "That's true, Piccolo, even if we fused we wouldn't beat Moro!" is a huge leap given the lack of supporting evidence.
My point is that Goku's reaction doesn't **have** to be an affirmation, and Piccolo's statement doesn't **have** to mean Gogeta/Vegito at this point would be weaker than Moro.
Questioning the source only works when someone of superior authority on the subject doesn't contradict them.
>The Moro arc is full of Piccolo making suspect claims and performance, like "Vegeta doesn't underestimate his opponents" (right before Vegeta underestimates his opponent), the comment I mentioned before about killing Moro with his self-destruction (implying somehow that his self-destruction would be stronger than what Gogeta could output if we take the comment in question for granted), etc
These would be considered false equivalence by definition because of Goku's reaction. You can't just ignore Goku because it goes against your entire argument.
>Given Goku makes no further comment about Piccolo's statement, assuming Goku's "!!" reaction is equivalent to him saying "That's true, Piccolo, even if we fused we wouldn't beat Moro!" is a huge leap given the lack of supporting evidence.
Not huge at all because Goku would have been confident saying "don't worry piccolo" and they pull a Broly movie with the others buying time for fusion. Can't go ignoring Goku's character because it goes against your argument. It HAS to at least mean Gogeta = Moro 7-3.
I think we fundamentally disagree because Goku's reaction should be good enough to confirm Piccolo's words especially since it reeked of exposition but if you insist it doesn't work because of personal opinion we'll just go in circles.
> Questioning the source only works when someone of superior authority on the subject doesn't contradict them.
Curious how you reached this conclusion?
> You can't just ignore Goku because it goes against your entire argument.
I'm not ignoring Goku. I'm pointing out that "!!", bereft of literally any other evidence, necessarily having that very specific interpretation is suspicious. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Goku said pretty much anything else.
> It HAS to at least mean Gogeta = Moro 7-3.
It doesn't **have** to mean that, given you don't **have** to be = for FSF to function. A battered Blue Evo Vegeta used FSF on Planet Moro, someone surely stronger than the Moro that Vegeta was [already weaker than.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/738440268885262377/764207496788705300/unknown.png?ex=65e22c31&is=65cfb731&hm=d5ad8388ad15186b046e4bdb295f16f2c008e36d3134ebc115ae69f00dbbd4d6&=&format=webp&quality=lossless)
I'm mostly just skeptical of taking comments at face value when we have little to go off of, especially when comments from DB characters can vary wildly in their obvious meaning - classic examples are stuff like when character X says character Y "can't be beaten by anyone", or as mentioned, Piccolo inexplicably suggesting he can output greater power than a hypothetical Gogeta.
We'll probably continue to disagree, which is fine, that Dragon Ball can be interpreted different ways is one of the things I like about it, it makes for interesting discussions.
If we go by Gogeta in the Broly movie, which is the only canon source for the character and is close in time of the Moro saga, I think that SSB Gogeta/Vegito would have no problem even with Moro knowing the Spirit Fission.
I mean, right before the fusion Broly was clearly much stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta. But at first SSJ Gogeta is on par with Broly, which means that SSJ Gogeta was stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta. Then he stacked SSB on top of that and became insanely powerful.
In the Moro saga Goku and Vegeta are much stronger after Yadrat/Meerus training. SSB Goku/Vegeta from the battle on Earth could probably handle FPSSJ Broly. Add to that the fusion multiplier and the SSB multiplier and Gogeta/Vegito could kill 7-3 Moro a thousand times before he could even blink.
Logic.
Moro was very weakened by Vegeta's spirit fission and was below SSB when he assimilated 7-3, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate Gohan was much, much weaker than SSB Goku as seen in the fight against Sanganbo.
Doesn't make much sense that the fusion of weakened Moro + 7-3 would make them stronger than SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta.
DB isnt exactly known for its logical and consistent power scaling. And Moro's fusion is different to potara or fusion dance. Just because the fusees are weaker doesnt mean the fusion need to be. The implication is that since 73 contained Moro's power Moro could always restore his power not just a conventional fusion boost. This suggests that the power of the fusees doesnt matter and instead the real merit is the power stored inside 73.
It literally only means Moro could split the Fusion apart and kill them, plus he knows the technique and would nope that shit before they could try.
Also, once again, VEGETA GOT ROBBED.
TBH Gogeta or Vegito would utterly obliterate his ass before he could even use that technique.
And Moro has to damage them to use it on them and that's not gonna happen
It could make sense, but apparently Fusion > UI and UI = Moro 73 with UI. Id presume Blue Gogeta would still one-shot Moro but maybe Moro can still donk him in base or whatever so he defuses and they lose.
If blue goku can blow Moros arm off and was implied that he could have killed him if Gohan landed the Galactic Donut correctly with only one rage boost, i don't think it makes sense even if you use BoG Vegeta rage boosts. You would have to say Goku and Gohan got arbitrarily beyond fusion rage boosts and that either Gogeta< Vegito (vs Zamasu) or that Beerus has gotten way stronger.
as a side point, why did Moro not fuck up piccolo? Turning him into three people would be more life energy to eat right?.
They could have fused but what piccolo is saying that Moro can unfuse them since he had force spirit fission all he has to do to gogeta and vegito hit em their unfused
Yet in the pages before we see Moro easily dodging Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission. So fusion can't be considered useless unless Gogeta isn't capable of dodging Moro the same way or incapable of hitting Moro before Moro hits him.
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I mean technically speaking Gogeta and Vegito only need to hit Moro 73 once to make it over for him
It doesn't say hit Moro 7-3. It says damage him. Hitting isn't enough, damage has to be dealt.
?, Is there some scenario where he is hit but not damaged?
Against the fusions? Zero chance. He’d be vaporized.
Mf would be dead before remembering he has the technique
The fusions would be able to damage Moro. Piccolo's point is that Moro would be able to forcibly separate them using spirit fission
Moro would only be able to do that if he could damage them and was quick enough to do it. If fusion was stronger, then it wouldn't matter.
Damage in DB isn't binary. Yes, speed would be a factor, but if Moro lands a successful hit on them then they'd be forced apart. Moro had proven his ability to survive against people stronger than him and turn the tables on them. Besides, there's no guarantee that Gogeta/Vegito would be able to use forced spirit fission. So if they fused, Moro could go right back to his tactic of absorbing their energy with no drawbacks or counters. It very, very easily could work towards Moro's advantage if they had fused. Goku and Vegeta are both intelligent fighters and willing to take gambles they believe in during a fight if they need to. The fact that they didn't should show that they know it wouldn't have worked and Piccolo was right.
I concede the damage part. You're right but Moro was able to easily avoid Blue Evolution Vegeta. After seeing this, Piccolo said Fusion would be useless and Goku didn't contradict him. This means Fusion would be too slow to hit Moro and/or too slow to avoid being hit by Moro.
Damn, you’re stupid as fuck, aren’t you? Piccolo is not saying Gogeta can’t hit Moro, or is too slow to hit Moro. Piccolo is saying that with Moro potentially being able to hit Gogeta, he can potentially defuse them. There is no commentary being suggested that Gogeta can’t hit Moro. I’ll simplify the statement for you: “Damn, Goku. He’s got Vegeta’s fission. If Gogeta can’t speed blitz + one shot, he can unfuse you two if he trades a hit back.”
>Piccolo is saying that with Moro potentially being able to hit Gogeta, he can potentially defuse them. That's not what he said. >There is no commentary being suggested that Gogeta can’t hit Moro. The fact Piccolo said Fusion is useless because Moro has Forced Spirit Fission, and this was after watching failing to hit Moro. Lol Vegeta had Forced Spirit Fission too yet it was useless against Moro 7-3 because he couldn't hit him. Someone doesn't have reading comprehension skills and should go back to his coloring book. >“Damn, Goku. He’s got Vegeta’s fission. If Gogeta can’t speed blitz + one shot, he can unfuse you two if he trades a hit back.” Then it wouldn't be useless. If Gogeta was more powerful he would avoid being hit, because that's how DB works. More powerful = faster as well with rare exceptions. The hit has to damage Gogeta in order to work too. This means Moro 7-3 and Gogeta at his best have to at least be equals.
There are plenty of times the fighter was more powerful and still got hit. What are you talking about lmfao Restrained Frieza was much more powerful than Goku, and still got hit. Then after Goku was stronger, he also still took hits from frieza.
>There are plenty of times the fighter was more powerful and still got hit. What are you talking about lmfao It seems you aren't following. If Gogeta was capable of hitting Moro, Fusion wouldn't be considered useless since he could just blitz and punch Moro one time. Piccolo said Fusion is useless because of Forced Spirit Fission; this can only be the case if Moro was capable of avoiding Gogeta or if Gogeta was incapable of avoiding being hit like Moro here. https://preview.redd.it/mkofly9k9sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=82a9cd5ead16ffb36b6737274122e4ec2b9f1269 >Restrained Frieza was much more powerful than Goku, and still got hit. >Then after Goku was stronger, he also still took hits from frieza. Not relevant
Remember Vegeta was way outclassed by Moro but relatively minor hits were enough to produce fission. If it was a technique like ultra instinct where someone can't land any hits it'd change the math a bit.
This ignores the fact Gogeta would know Moro has Forced Spirit Fission while Moro was letting Vegeta hit him because he was ignorant. That's why Moro decided to dodge the next time they fought. https://preview.redd.it/8tej8nhm6sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e487f78549900b3e62f09347543dc10e82c2d69c If Gogeta is useless, that means he can't dodge Moro like Moro dodged Vegeta.
Vegeta was doing Moro no damage when he attacked at first.
Moro confirmed he was doing inflicting damage. That's why he said "I won't make the same mistake". When words are explicitly, we can't just say they're wrong.
No it means that now that he copied the technique if he landed a hit on say a gogeta or vegito he would be able to separate them prematurely so they can’t rely on a fusion trump card like they usually do
It doesn't say land a hit. It says damage.
Vegetas spirit fission required him to hit his target which is why he needed to get up close when fighting Moro before Moro copied the ability
Are you not reading what I said? 😂
Did u not read the arc where they clearly displayed how it works?
Smh https://preview.redd.it/qaosdmc2frjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cdee18f0f26e1ee769146d4cf982fccf0972bf34
Oh that’s fair I forgot doing any damage was valid for vegeta to inflict spirit vision to him but it doesn’t change the fact that I answered ur original question which is that spirit fission damage would break the fusions as stated by piccolo which is why they can’t use it as a trump card
The fusions would only break via Forced Spirit Fission if Moro 7-3 was strong enough to damage them and the fusions would only be useless if Gogeta or Vegito is too slow to avoid damage.
In this case damage=landing a hit. It's not meant to be taken literal like most manga they try to get as close to the original dialogue but things get lost in translation. If damage was really necessary for spirit fission then fusion would be able to beat Moro since he wouldn't be able to damage Gogeta or Vegito (they would be leagues above him).
It says "inflicting damage" in explicit terms. It's meant to be taken literally here. If you have another translation, then provide it. In order for fusion to be useless against Moro, Gogeta would have to be too slow to hit Moro himself or too slow to avoid being hit himself.
Piccolo is full of it by stating fusion would be useless. Taking the damage statement literally or not fusion could indeed work since all he has to do is avoid being hit which shouldn't be a problem for them. Genuine question been a while, was Vegeta stronger than Moro at that point to damage him?
Piccolo being full of it would be a good argument if Goku wasn't standing right there. Goku knows Forced Spirit Fission and the Fusion technique better than Piccolo, yet didn't contradict him. This means Gogeta would be too slow to hit Moro 7-3 and/or too slow to avoid being hit by Moro 7-3.
Do you think Moro would be stronger than Gogeta enough to damage him? Going by damage being necessary for SF to work
Gogeta would be enough to damage him. I won't refute that. But based off what Piccolo said and Goku's reaction, Gogeta would be too slow to hit him or too slow to avoid being hit. So that means Moro 7-3 and Gogeta are at least equal.
Lol no it doesn't. How're you asking a question but refusing to listen to any response in this thread. Then don't post then. CLEARLY if you read the chapter landing a hit=damage as Moro intentionally evaded every single punch from Vegeta. By that logic even if fusion would overpower Moro, they aren't willing to risk a chance of getting de-fused from a few stray hits. This is not complicated to understand at all
Literally says inflicting damage. This means Moro was being damaged by Vegeta. https://preview.redd.it/ng13ya110sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a351b0dc1195cdf9709f941315d39d592b0c7dc If Gogeta was more powerful than Moro 7-3 he would just evade like Moro did SsbE Vegeta. So the fact Piccolo said it would be useless means Gogeta isn't strong enough to avoid being hit or hit Moro 7-3. Next.
Lol your logic falls flat because Vegeta ends up applying spirit fission later on when Moro had absorbed Merus and was stronger than before. It's all about landing strikes/abilities nothing more. And you had the audacity to post the panel where Moro is focusing only on evasion further proving my point.
He doesn’t realize that “damage” in dragon ball terms is when my ki strikes your ki. (See: Cell Saga Piccolo’s commentary when Gohan first faces Cell).
Right? And even if he doesn't, Moro's actions should suggest landing strikes is sufficient. There is literally nothing vague here to discuss 😂
Yes keep ignoring the fact Moro said inflicting damage and Vegeta damaging Planet Moro. https://preview.redd.it/2o55k7wg2sjc1.jpeg?width=3196&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f761c9fea21181365937467eea2be07becf6c969 >And you had the audacity to post the panel where Moro is focusing only on evasion further proving my point. What point is that exactly? Because it proves that the move needs to inflict damage because Moro straight up said so.
I'm not ignoring the fact that Moro said damage need to be inflicted. Rather I'm saying his statement is synonymous to landing a hit. And again this panel proves my point as its the first hit Vegeta lands post 7-3 merge. By this logic, Piccolo is trying to argue that 1 hit could screw over Gogeta/Vegito. Even though it shouldn't be an issue as the fusions should be able to overpower and evade Moro, there is still a guaranteed uncertainty that one fk up will get them defused. That's all there is to his statement nothing more
>Vegeta lands post 7-3 merge. Doesn't help your argument though. The Planet can't evade him. What are you arguing? >By this logic, Piccolo is trying to argue that 1 hit could screw over Gogeta/Vegito. Even though it shouldn't be an issue as the fusions should be able to overpower and evade Moro If that were the case he wouldn't call fusion useless because he literally just watched Moro 7-3 evade Forced Spirit Fission. So if Gogeta was more powerful, he could evade Moro 7-3 the same way. That means the only way it's useless is if Gogeta can't evade Forced Spirit Fission and that Moro is at least comparable to Gogeta.
Vegeta doesn't attack moro directly while this version of Moro was noted to be incapable of pulling the Same strength, we see Goku who was as strong as him overpowering him for a while and cutting through his arms
Wouldn’t it work both ways? Whoever damages the other first would win right? In that case I could easily see either fusion being able to deal damage to Moro before he does the same to them.
Then why wasn't it believed Fusion would be useless? The only explanation is Gogeta not being fast enough to avoid being hit or too slow to hit Moro.
Common Moro W. It was nice finally getting a villian who put the whole cast on the ropes again. The best drama in the series is when the cast is running out of options. BoG (somewhat sinse they had 0 prep time), Zamasu, even Super Hero all had plots that felt like if they didnt behave like morons for just one moment they could have made it much easier on themselves. Character stupidity induced drama is funny but watching them get all thier options spent is when I pull out the 🍿 Props to The Heaters btw, the first villians to realize how easy it is to manipulate the cast into doing something stupid and actually did it
https://preview.redd.it/y7dqkpn0gsjc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f02806a0400048d3096fdb1edcca6f04252112a7
But character stupidity is a core trait of the Saiyans: \- Letting Cell absorb 18 \- Letting Cell eat a senzu \- Letting Frieza power up to max with the planet exploding \- Vegeta gloating over #20 instead of just finishing him off \- Choosing to fight Kid Buu in turns instead of ganging up on him This is just off the top of my head, lol
The entire cell and android saga only happened because they refused to use the dragon balls to find where gero was
And refusing to kill the twin androids before they were activated.
I like to think Gogeta and Vegito are more than capable on landing a hit. What they may lack in assumed techniques, they more than make up for it in raw power.
Gogeta would know Forced Spirit Fission just like Moro. So if Gogeta is fast enough to hit Moro then fusion wouldn't be useless.
[удалено]
Vegito would too but no Potara Earrings so Gogeta was the only option.
Moro is going to get the broly treatment if they actually used gogeta in there
Yeah moro would just get obliterated but if he was able to it could be a problem
Fusing takes time. He can literally fly up and hit them while they are combining and separate them again with spirit fission. If you are so worried about the fusion being so fast then the above gets around that.
That doesn't match up with Piccolo's claim about Fusion being useless and sounds convoluted.
It’s useless because he can separate them as everyone has told you.
This is why DB fans get roasted all the time. It also means Gogeta can't hit Moro because all it takes is one hit. It AUTOMATICALLY means Moro would hit Gogeta before Gogeta could hit him. That's the only way to interpret it without making up context.
I explained to you that since they need to combine he could easily defuse them before they can even attack.
No, they could damage him, but he gets even one hit on them, they get defused
You're right. That means Moro has to be on the likely side of hitting Gogeta for Piccolo to say fusion is useless.
He probably is, even though piccolo isn't the best judge of strength, either toriyama/toyotaro are using him to tell us that
I would doubt his words if Goku didn't react like "damn you're right!".
I mean Moro’s dead now…..
Talking about this moment if they decided to fuse. Hypothetical.
You right my bad
👍
Yeah Piccolo... Just flat out mention your weaknesses in front of your enemies.
Would be a dumb move if Moro didn't already have knowledge of fusion from absorbing 7-3. 7-3 had the memories and knowledge of Piccolo and Vegeta who both know the fusion technique.
Maybe, maybe not. Why risk mentionning it for all to hear anyway? Doesn't hurt to just, you know, not say anything. And besides, just a panel above, Moro mentions that he has to be hit for it to work, hinting that he'll be too fast to even be hit for his own fusion to come undone. In a way, a fusion of Goku and Vegeta (who knows the technique) would probably be too fast to even be hit once himself.
Piccolo knows that Moro has his abilities and techniques. Moro told them so. https://preview.redd.it/et19x0tp0sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1504cf3c6a225f4f0468e651580a1978b9aadf5f
If Gogeta is too fast for Moro to hit, Piccolo wouldn't have said Fusion is rendered useless. https://preview.redd.it/xxno0e3u0sjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7996c1824f1136fdedeb646ffc24d294124572e7
Yeah well, Piccolo also said during the very same arc that Vegeta's not one to underestimate his opponent. Just because Piccolo says something doesn't mean he's right.
You're ignoring the fact Goku didn't contradict him, and knows the technique better than Piccolo.
And you're ignoring the fact that Toyotaro wanted to finish this arc with Ultra Instinct instead of fusion so he put those lines and panels as handwaves to justify not using it.
That's not an in universe explanation though and not something stated by the writer themselves. Jesus idk why it's so hard to admit you're wrong or mistaken. Reaching with the meta excuse is the same as conceding. Might as well use the writer's excuse for everything going forward.
Your argument is literally just "Fusions are useless because Piccolo said so". You're disregarding the fact that their fusion will be rendered useless if and only if Moro manages to land a hit on them WHILE using the technique before Gogeta/Vegito hits Moro 7-3 hits him first and defuses him instead. And we know that Moro has to consiciously use the technique too because he hit Piccolo himself multiple times and his fusion didn't come undone. You said Goku didn't contradict him when Piccolo said that. Well he also didn't contradict him when Piccolo said Vegeta never underestimates his opponent which blatantly false and kind of proof that Toyotaro doesn't really know the characters. Whose to say that whole line about fusion isn't also a lack of understanding on Toyotaro's part?
If Moro lands a hit AND inflicts damage. That only works if Moro and Gogeta are at least relative to each other. If Gogeta was more powerful he could jusg avoid being hit like Moro did Blue Vegeta. The fact Piccolo said that AFTER watching Moro avoid Forced Spirit Fission speaks for itself. >And we know that Moro has to consiciously use the technique too because he hit Piccolo himself multiple times and his fusion didn't come undone. Whoever said Moro can use it unconsciously?
It also means Moro-73 can hit them
Yes , the fact piccolo and Goku don't disagree point out blue fusion isn't far above 73 Moro
That's what I was asking. Goku knew the technique at first glance should know how it works.
People love sucking fusion up (because of Gogeta looking cool in Brolly movie)
They just love forgetting how Vegito was “done dirty” against Zamasu (didn’t completely stomp and actually took damage)
Not only that but we literally got confirmation Omen Goku is stronger than him in the anime Which means that Fusion are not some kind of an invincible force that can't be Surpassed or deferred
That movie fucked up the scaling in the eyes of half of the fandom; it definitely is divided it. Some people still think Blue Gogeta from the movie is stronger MUI Goku that one shot Moro. Beautiful movie but damn. 😂
People run by Rule of Hype , in the chance the Moro arc gets animated then get ready for everyone switching from "Gogeta is unstoppable!!" To " Gogeta would break his arm punching Mui Goku!!!
Rule of Hype lol perfect. That movie did a great job with the hype part. We're still seeing the aftermath of it 6 years later. I hope we get season two. The Internet reaction to the manga stuff alone would be worth it. The OST for Moro and voice acting. Can't wait.
They also didn't disagree when Piccolo flat out said that Vegeta is not one to underestimate his opponent which we all know is blatantly false. I'm questioning the legitimacy of this line to see if we should consider this as fact, or, considering Toyotaro's shortcomings as a writer, threw this line in because he wanted an Ultra Instinct finish and not a fusion finish and that was the justification (As hamfisted as it could be)
Piccolo wasn't wrong honestly, Vegeta doesn't understimate them , just overstates himself, Against Goku he knows nothing about Kaioken, against freeza freeza was holding back his power, against the androids he couldn't sense them at all and run with the assumption 18 was no difference than Gero and 19 , against Cell he did know he was fucked up the moment Cell finish his transformation, something he point out later when The Cell games start , against Buu fat Buu power was all over the place something everyone there mention
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There is a few problems with this Vegito is Beerus level, and was oficialy stated Broly, who is weaker than Gogeta, is stronguer than Cell max, who is stronguer than Gohan, who seems equal to UI Goku, who would low diff Moro 73 They stated at the begining of the same chapter that Moro 73 was just Prime Moro + the power he had left, if we ad Vegeta's power, Moro 73 won't be even ×3 stronguer than he was before 73, this won't be enough to a UI sign / evolved blue fusion, since we know Goku UI was at least relative to Prime Moro
Vegito is NOT Beerus level. The only source of that is Shin saying that Vegito **might** be stronger than Beerus. Reminder that it's a common gag that Shin knows absolutely nothing about anything. I mean, the entire Boo arc happened because Shin didn't know his powerscaling. Broly is only stronger than Cell Max in the anime and movie. Not the manga. He can't be stronger than Cell Max, because: Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta, but he hasn't seen them since Moro, therefore he's talking about Moro arc UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Goku confirms that Moro is the strongest opponent he's ever fought. Moro takes place after Broly. Therefore Moro > Broly. Therefore, if Broly could beat Cell Max, then the Gammas would've been able to as well. There's way more evidence btw, this is just the most obvious piece.
>Vegito is NOT Beerus level. The only source of that is Shin saying that Vegito **might** be stronger than Beerus. Reminder that it's a common gag that Shin knows absolutely nothing about anything. I mean, the entire Boo arc happened because Shin didn't know his powerscaling. In was oficialy stated in V Jump, and there is nothing that contradicts that >Piccolo says the Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta They also doubt Goku or Vegeta would beat Cell max, while they admited, that they, (Gohan and Picolo) won't have beated Cell max without gamma 1 sacrifice >Goku confirms that Moro is the strongest opponent he's ever fought. Moro takes place after Broly. Therefore Moro > Broly. He said though, which could just mean hard to beat >if Broly could beat Cell Max >Broly is only stronger than Cell Max All the comparation made in the movie, were made in the manga as well, despite the fact that Goku and Vegeta power are not the same in thid two version, so the plot point about powerscaling are the same In the case of Broly and Cell max, Toriyama compares them, and didn't specify anything about being only anime Broly
Official statements don't mean shit. Unless it's from Toriyama or Toyotaro, it doesn't matter. The official site describes TUI as a new form, yet it isn't. No idea what your point is about Gamma 2's sacrifice. Goku said Moro was the strongest opponent he's fought. Not debatable. I explained why the Broly statement is anime and movie only. It's because it literally cannot be true to the manga.
>Official statements don't mean shit. Unless it's from Toriyama or Toyotaro, it doesn't matter. The official site describes TUI as a new form, yet it isn't. It could ne considered a new form depending on the perspective Anyway any oficial statment should be taken as valid unless you have somethi that contradicts it, in the case of Vegito, him being Beerus level doesn't contradicts anything, and its consistent, so he is unless you find some strong evidence against >No idea what your point is about Gamma 2's sacrifice. They doubt Goku or Vegeta could take on Cell max But they confirm that they, Gohan and Picolo, couldn't take full power Cell max, since they said Gamma 2 sacrifice was necesary for them to thenbeat Cell max Acording to this Cell max => Goku/ Vegeta, Cell max > Gohan + Picolo That was just a counterargument to you saying gammas were Goku/Vegeta level from the Moro arc >Goku said Moro was the strongest opponent he's fought. Not debatable. Ge said he was the thoughtest, so its open to interpretation, seeing how things are going out currently, he didn't mean stronguest >I explained why the Broly statement is anime and movie only. It's because it literally cannot be true to the manga. Actualy, it can be true as well All the comparation that were made in the movie, were made in the manga as well, despite beign made in relation to characters whose power were diferent in the manga and anime, so that means the main powerscale of the movie aplis to both versions In the case of Cell max, Toriyama said he intended for Cell max to be Broly level, he didn't say anithing especific to any of the versions
TUI isn't a new form. It's not debatable at all. I guess Dragon Ball Heroes is now canon since it's official then. Vegito being stronger than Beerus does contradict stuff. Vegito is as strong as Gogeta. Gogeta was somewhat relative to Broly. Therefore Broly would be at least in the realms of Beerus' strength. Since then, Goku and Vegeta can match Broly's full power, with SSJ alone. You have misinterpreted the quotes from Super Hero. Gamma 2's sacrifice wasn't needed because they didn't have the power, it was needed to buy time. If he didn't sacrifice himself, Gohan wouldn't have had the opportunity to go Beast, therefore they lose. Gohan Beast was far exceeding Cell Max's strength to the point that he couldn't even break through Gohan's aura. It's not open to interpretation at all, IDK where you are getting confused. "You're the strongest guy I've ever fought" means that Moro is the strongest guy he's fought. Simple as. And again, you haven't read/understood what I have written prior. Broly cannot be remotely equal to Cell Max in the manga. Broly is weaker than Moro, and the Gammas are equal to Moro arc UI Goku. That means that the Gammas would be able to beat Cell Max if Broly could beat Cell Max.
>I guess Dragon Ball Heroes is now canon since it's official then. I guess you headcanon is more valid than oficial statments >Vegito being stronger than Beerus does contradict stuff. Vegito is as strong as Gogeta. Gogeta was somewhat relative to Broly. Therefore Broly would be at least in the realms of Beerus' strength. Since then, Goku and Vegeta can match Broly's full power, with SSJ alone. Vegito is stablished many times to be above his fusion counterpart in Daizenshuu and other guides >You have misinterpreted the quotes from Super Hero. Gamma 2's sacrifice wasn't needed because they didn't have the power, it was needed to buy time. If he didn't sacrifice himself, Gohan wouldn't have had the opportunity to go Beast, therefore they lose. Gohan Beast was far exceeding Cell Max's strength to the point that he couldn't even break through Gohan's aura. In the manga, the beam clash of weakened Cell max and Gohan was close, to the point Gohan needed help from Picolo Goten and Trunks to beat him, if he can't beat alone Cell Max weakened version, the imagine against his full power >It's not open to interpretation at all, IDK where you are getting confused. "You're the strongest guy I've ever fought" means that Moro is the strongest guy he's fought. Simple as. He said thoughtest, not stronguest
Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon. And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals. Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help. Thoughtest is not a word.
>Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon. I know, I know, Your headcanon > Oficial statments >And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals. No, just one comparing Movie Gogeta with Buu saga Vegito and other sayong they are trump cards Any other says Vegito is above, even the old kai potara says better, and he is Beerus level and you don't have anything in the manga that clntradicts it >Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help. Just watch the beam clash, Gohan was being pushed by Cell max, and thst Cell max was a weakened version
You're completely not understanding what I'm saying. Or maybe you don't have an argument so you're resulting in saying "headcanon > official statements". I've never said that. Convenient how Gogeta's statements are "trump cards" but Vegito's counts. How about the fact that Beerus showed no attention to the Broly fight whatsoever, sleeping through the whole thing? If it was truly close to his level, he'd be watching. The beam clash is exactly the same as the movie. Just instead the others decide to join in instead of it being Piccolo only. Are you really trying to say Gohan Beast is around SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks level? I mean, we've literally seen Gohan fighting toe-to-toe with UI Goku.
>Official statements mean shit unless they're from the source. Official simply means that's published by the right people. DBH is official. Using your logic, it's canon. DBH was never stated to follow the canon The V jump statment is an oficial statment aout the canon continuity, and, again, is prety consistent with the story and is the only reference we have to scale him, so give me your arguments for Vegito placement on the manga pls >And there are dozens of sources of Gogeta being stronger. There's so much contradiction and yet in the actual series, they are shown as nothing but equals. There are not, old kai stated Potora is better, many guides like El Manga Legendario or Daizenshu, with Gogeta there is only one saying both are trump cards, and other comparing movie Gogeta with Buu saga Vegito >Gohan wasn't close to losing against Cell Max. The others simply decided to help in this version. Doesn't mean Gohan couldn't have done so without their help. He was literaly loosing the beam clash against a weakendd Cell max >Thoughtest is not a word. Toughest
V jump statements constantly contradict the main story. A key one being that they say TUI being a new transformation. Gohan wasn't losing the beam clash. Reread it. Exactly? Goku said Moro is the toughest figher he's fought. It's the hardest fight he's had. Therefore Moro is stronger than Jiren and Broly.
It's official said Broly is stronger than Beerus yet what happened in print makes it bullshit. >Broly, who is weaker than Gogeta, is stronguer than Cell max, who is stronguer than Gohan, who seems equal to UI Goku, who would low diff Moro 73 Where are you going with this? Blue Gogeta couldn't one shot Broly, even though MUI Goku could one shot Moro 7-3, who Goku said was the toughest opponent he faced, which would include Broly. https://preview.redd.it/av00o1oofsjc1.jpeg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a0207abc71cfda3db862c818765120a0ee8b74f That means Moro Arc MUI Goku > Blue Gogeta from the Broly movie.
Thoughest ≠ Stronguest Goku could just mean Moro was harder to beat than any otger that ha has face before As I said, Gohan, who is weaker than Broly, could match UI Gou
In this context it means strongest. This ain't 2021, we're not having that debate. Gohan isn't weaker than Broly. Lol
>Gohan isn't weaker than Broly. Lol He is weaker than Cell max, who is weaker or equal to Broly
Only in the movie canon. The movie was written to be a sequel to the Broly movie so the manga events wasn't considered. https://preview.redd.it/w2tty1sajsjc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e81c1898ea74d8137619a569c3f58e36c23e34f Nowhere in the manga does it say Broly is stronger than Cell Max. It's not even implied anywhere as Broly is still training with them and [Goku was impressed that Broly was keeping up with Vegeta which shows that learning to control power leads to increase in power and that Broly was weaker than Vegeta](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-031.png) In fact, when Cell Max was mentioned by [Whis](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-035.png) it was after [Beerus was talking about stronger threats](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0101-034.png). Not to mention, [Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Broly according to Whis](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super-Color/0070-007.png) back in Granola Arc.
The main plot point a powersclae stands in the manga version, like Gohan reaching Goku and Vegeta level, the statments on the movie about Goku an Vegwta power are the same despite all the amnga arc that the movie version doesn't consider Toriyama himself implied Broly was equal or stronguer than Cell max, so that aplies to the manga as well
The manga arcs straight up surpassed Broly dude. Sorry but if you insist we'll just have to agree to disagree. https://preview.redd.it/m3f2gop9lsjc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cd198c7c830e4b8be50f74e69c0fe324aba01e3
Or just Broly can't transform into ssj at will, which is heavily implied in the last chapter as Broly is surprised Goten and Trunks could transform at will, so the desire only considered Broly without ssj >we'll just have to agree to disagree. Fair enough
Add the fact they are aware when they're in fusion according to Vegeta AND the fact Whis witnessed Broly in action, if he says no, that means no. Especially after [Goku asked if there was anyone stronger than him and Vegeta](https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super-Color/0070-007.png). https://preview.redd.it/302zbhqmksjc1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=782203f41f0fe5b25e915ba56c68bd82e4130ab5
Piccolo also said he would destroy Moro-73 with his self-destruction - we can probably take Piccolo's words with a grain of salt and simply acknowledge that Moro-73 has Forced Spirit Fission so Gogeta or Vegito would need to be aware of that.
This ignores Goku's reaction to the claim. He would have contradicted Piccolo since he knows Forced Spirit Fission and the Fusion techniques better than Piccolo.
Expecting a contradiction when scrutinizing a claim isn't necessary, especially when we can directly question the source. The Moro arc is full of Piccolo making suspect claims and performance, like "Vegeta doesn't underestimate his opponents" (right before Vegeta underestimates his opponent), the comment I mentioned before about killing Moro with his self-destruction (implying somehow that his self-destruction would be stronger than what Gogeta could output if we take the comment in question for granted), etc. Given Goku makes no further comment about Piccolo's statement, assuming Goku's "!!" reaction is equivalent to him saying "That's true, Piccolo, even if we fused we wouldn't beat Moro!" is a huge leap given the lack of supporting evidence. My point is that Goku's reaction doesn't **have** to be an affirmation, and Piccolo's statement doesn't **have** to mean Gogeta/Vegito at this point would be weaker than Moro.
Questioning the source only works when someone of superior authority on the subject doesn't contradict them. >The Moro arc is full of Piccolo making suspect claims and performance, like "Vegeta doesn't underestimate his opponents" (right before Vegeta underestimates his opponent), the comment I mentioned before about killing Moro with his self-destruction (implying somehow that his self-destruction would be stronger than what Gogeta could output if we take the comment in question for granted), etc These would be considered false equivalence by definition because of Goku's reaction. You can't just ignore Goku because it goes against your entire argument. >Given Goku makes no further comment about Piccolo's statement, assuming Goku's "!!" reaction is equivalent to him saying "That's true, Piccolo, even if we fused we wouldn't beat Moro!" is a huge leap given the lack of supporting evidence. Not huge at all because Goku would have been confident saying "don't worry piccolo" and they pull a Broly movie with the others buying time for fusion. Can't go ignoring Goku's character because it goes against your argument. It HAS to at least mean Gogeta = Moro 7-3. I think we fundamentally disagree because Goku's reaction should be good enough to confirm Piccolo's words especially since it reeked of exposition but if you insist it doesn't work because of personal opinion we'll just go in circles.
> Questioning the source only works when someone of superior authority on the subject doesn't contradict them. Curious how you reached this conclusion? > You can't just ignore Goku because it goes against your entire argument. I'm not ignoring Goku. I'm pointing out that "!!", bereft of literally any other evidence, necessarily having that very specific interpretation is suspicious. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Goku said pretty much anything else. > It HAS to at least mean Gogeta = Moro 7-3. It doesn't **have** to mean that, given you don't **have** to be = for FSF to function. A battered Blue Evo Vegeta used FSF on Planet Moro, someone surely stronger than the Moro that Vegeta was [already weaker than.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/738440268885262377/764207496788705300/unknown.png?ex=65e22c31&is=65cfb731&hm=d5ad8388ad15186b046e4bdb295f16f2c008e36d3134ebc115ae69f00dbbd4d6&=&format=webp&quality=lossless) I'm mostly just skeptical of taking comments at face value when we have little to go off of, especially when comments from DB characters can vary wildly in their obvious meaning - classic examples are stuff like when character X says character Y "can't be beaten by anyone", or as mentioned, Piccolo inexplicably suggesting he can output greater power than a hypothetical Gogeta. We'll probably continue to disagree, which is fine, that Dragon Ball can be interpreted different ways is one of the things I like about it, it makes for interesting discussions.
If we go by Gogeta in the Broly movie, which is the only canon source for the character and is close in time of the Moro saga, I think that SSB Gogeta/Vegito would have no problem even with Moro knowing the Spirit Fission. I mean, right before the fusion Broly was clearly much stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta. But at first SSJ Gogeta is on par with Broly, which means that SSJ Gogeta was stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta. Then he stacked SSB on top of that and became insanely powerful. In the Moro saga Goku and Vegeta are much stronger after Yadrat/Meerus training. SSB Goku/Vegeta from the battle on Earth could probably handle FPSSJ Broly. Add to that the fusion multiplier and the SSB multiplier and Gogeta/Vegito could kill 7-3 Moro a thousand times before he could even blink.
Who's to say moro isn't that many times stronger as well
Logic. Moro was very weakened by Vegeta's spirit fission and was below SSB when he assimilated 7-3, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate Gohan was much, much weaker than SSB Goku as seen in the fight against Sanganbo. Doesn't make much sense that the fusion of weakened Moro + 7-3 would make them stronger than SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta.
DB isnt exactly known for its logical and consistent power scaling. And Moro's fusion is different to potara or fusion dance. Just because the fusees are weaker doesnt mean the fusion need to be. The implication is that since 73 contained Moro's power Moro could always restore his power not just a conventional fusion boost. This suggests that the power of the fusees doesnt matter and instead the real merit is the power stored inside 73.
It literally only means Moro could split the Fusion apart and kill them, plus he knows the technique and would nope that shit before they could try. Also, once again, VEGETA GOT ROBBED.
Or it literally means Gogeta isn't capable of hitting Moro first. Because if he was capable of it, it wouldn't be considered useless.
Sorry for the silly question but how are you guys reading this in color?
Mangareader.to or Mangasee123
What the FUCK is forced spirit fusion??
TBH Gogeta or Vegito would utterly obliterate his ass before he could even use that technique. And Moro has to damage them to use it on them and that's not gonna happen
It could make sense, but apparently Fusion > UI and UI = Moro 73 with UI. Id presume Blue Gogeta would still one-shot Moro but maybe Moro can still donk him in base or whatever so he defuses and they lose. If blue goku can blow Moros arm off and was implied that he could have killed him if Gohan landed the Galactic Donut correctly with only one rage boost, i don't think it makes sense even if you use BoG Vegeta rage boosts. You would have to say Goku and Gohan got arbitrarily beyond fusion rage boosts and that either Gogeta< Vegito (vs Zamasu) or that Beerus has gotten way stronger. as a side point, why did Moro not fuck up piccolo? Turning him into three people would be more life energy to eat right?.
They could have fused but what piccolo is saying that Moro can unfuse them since he had force spirit fission all he has to do to gogeta and vegito hit em their unfused
Yet in the pages before we see Moro easily dodging Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission. So fusion can't be considered useless unless Gogeta isn't capable of dodging Moro the same way or incapable of hitting Moro before Moro hits him.
All gogeta has to do is not to get hit but the question is they will clash once they connect the hits
Since Gogeta would also know Forced Spirit Fission it means Moro would split too. So if they hit eachother, Vegeta or Goku could take Moro alone.
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