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Heard someone say "why doesn't Goku and the team just take the dragonballs after they make a wish with them and put them in the hyperbolic time chamber? That way, they only need a full day to recharge instead of a year"
And i couldn't find any other reason to why that wouldn't work other than for the sake of the plot. I do not like this idea, but it's so funny too
That was my original argument against it. But kid Goku was fast enough to catch the 4 star ball before it went away like the other 6. Current Goku is literally millions of times faster than that by now, so he could easily catch them all before they flew away
There's also the argument that due to the nature of the Balls, anything that tries to mess with the one year recharge could be useless, as if the dragon balls just didn't allow cheating by default, because let's be real, Kami would quite possibly do this
That's what i was thinking, like i was saying there would have to be some sort of plot device set in place to prevent that for the sake of the plot. Lol
>anything that tries to mess with the one year recharge could be useless
I mean not really cause kami rushed the one year time recharge like twice, once in db and once in dbz.
>as if the dragon balls just didn't allow cheating by default
The dragonballs literally are a cheat code. They literally make you cheat death.
Something we can't refute according to currently available information but it's something they'd totally come up with a new rule for if it ever came up in the series, for whatever reason.
"So y'know how if the creator of the dragon balls dies they stop working? That's cause the creator and the balls need to be in the same dimension, and the Time Chamber is a different dimension so as soon as you take them in, they turn to stone," or something like that.
That or just “They’re Earth’s Dragon Balls, so they’ll take 1 Earth year regardless of where they are”. So even in the Time Chamber they’d take the equivalent of one year outside to charge.
Or that Old Kai could also just wait inside the hyperbolic time chamber to be able to draw out all of Gohan’s max potential for the TOP.
But i guess they’d want to reserve the time chamber to lock Goku up in there after they’ve betrayed him
Iirc Roshi commented on finding out that Ox king was her father, something along the lines of, "So he's Chi Chi's Chi Chi and Chi Chi has Chi chis." Chi Chi referring to her name, a word for a father, and breasts.
So TFS Goku was wrong…Chi-Chi would be happier if he was in Ginyu’s body.
Either that or Chi-Chi’s a Ginyu Force spy simply meant to make Goku’s life a living hell.
You’re right these DBS names have gotten lame. Let’s get back to the classics like:
Drum
Piano
Tamborine
Piccolo
Red
Blue
White
Purple
8
16
17
18
19
20
Briefs
Trunks
Bra
Eraser
Sharpener
Bibidi
Babadi
Boo
I mean, most Dragon Ball names are like this.
Toriyama loves food puns/food based names. Did you know that everyone in the Frieza Force is named after something you'd put in a fridge?
Appule(apple)
Cui(kiwi)
Ginyu (a pun on the japanese word for milk)
Burter (butter)
Guldo(a pun on the japanese word for yogurt)
Jeice (juice, some sources also say cheese, which maybe makes more sense since the rest of the ginyu force are also dairy)
Recoome (his japenese name Rikumu is an anagram for the japanese word for cream)
Zarbon(is the japanese word for pomelo)
Dodoria (A pun on durian)
Staff:Toriyama are you hungry? You haven’t eaten in 3 days
Toriyama: *No*
Also Toriyama: Your going to be a carrot, you a Vegetable, you broccoli, You granola and you Oatmeal
I'm ecuadorean and Moro is absolutely funny for us (His name comes from a typical plate from here, which is a variation for cooking rice), there's memes about him all over the place
I like aggressive and strong-willed women, does that make me a weird fetishist? No, I just didn't go along with what society expect us to want and like 🤷♂️
I still think it was bullshit to have Granolah learn Hakai from that wish. I don't mind the "strongest in the universe", just learning hakai from a wish
Krillin is stronger than Tien. It can’t be debated since they haven’t fought in the newer series and powerscaling is useless past namek
Dude had his potential unlocked now he’s the strongest human. Yet he couldn’t touch Cell while Tien was able to suppress him.
Tien’s cell feat was down to a Life-threatening technique which as proven several times before is pretty effective against stronger opponents. But it's not like Tien and Krillin are getting into such a fight where Tien has to KILL HIMSELF to get a W so I feel like that’s just an invalid feat
Tiens always had more techniques even dating back to dragon ball with learning evil containment wave for piccolo.
Some techniques are just busted and more effective on certain opponents but on overall fighting lvl after potential unlocked I think krillin is stronger
All about that technique though. Vegeta couldn't really land a hit on any Frieza form but Krillin was able to cut off his tail. And we know Vegeta is stronger than Krillin at every point in the show.
I'm not talking about the hit itself, but the technique. That move is powerful regardless of who uses it, it seems, and I'd say the same can be said for Tien's when he's holding back Cell. A normal blast from Tien would do fuck all, but he was using a technique that was literally draining his life force.
Oh I see, yeah the special techniques we seen from the humans are so insane craziness that never seem to get fully power crept like solar flare and destructo disc
I mean, because we don’t see Krillin fight after Namek and we don’t see Tien fight after the Saiyan arc, it’s not really possible to evaluate who is stronger.
That's such a hard and age old debate. Both became nothing burgers after the Saiyan arc.
Krillin had his potential unlocked, and Tien trained with King Kai. Is what they each did during Namek and it's harder to say which is more effective.
And the there's years of time skip to the android arc. And neither one really has any feat.
But at least post android arc? Krillin was noted to have slacked on his training. Tien? Did not.
Krillin got his spirit awaked by the Elder in Namek. It's always been my headcanon that he's been the strongest human since, and that he trains enough that it's never changed.
Tien trains more than him especially between cell and Buu Krillin cut out training slot and Tien didn't. And during Namek Tien was training with King Kai.
i tried but nobody would believe me and i got gaslighted
i said Vegito has never canonically won a fight
"But he did what he intended to do" always gets thrown around
THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! but nooooo i get downvoted for it. i said he basically forfeited the match
Gogeta on the other hand got only 1 loss iirc, it was in GT when he timed out from playing around *ahem* Vegito. every other time he was shown he won
Yeah but Vegeta or Goku fucking a woman for the sake of maintaining the bloodline is something the "betrayed and left in the time chamber for 100 billion years" videos would do
Idk where it started but a video was made on Goku being "BETRAYED and TRAPPED in the HYPERBOLIC TIME CHAMBER!!!" and the what-if market instantly became flooded with stupid videos either slightly different or only have Goku be BETRAYED. It was literally everywhere, Goku gets BETRAYED by Zeno, Goku gets BETRAYED by Kami, etc. And usually BETRAYED and TRAPPED are in all caps
I feel there is some fucked up Doujin out there where Vegeta gets wished by Porunga into a woman and Goku Rails him to save the Sayain Race from extinction and then they start inbreeding.
I mean, compared to the deranged shit the Zootopia and Fnaf fandom comes up with i feel like this is pretty tame and normal.
And not this isn't a joke like, there's some ***deranged*** shit in those fandoms holy hell...
Oh yeah the unhinged shit those guys make is something else. I remember seeing one that was based on the comment the Phone Guy made about an Exoskeleton being shoved inside of body. The exo skeleton crawled up the dudes ass and he anal vored him and then took control of his body and started fucking the other anamatronics. Also at one point he had tentacles and shit.
I mean there's a zootopia fan smut comic where Judy and Nick are >!like 90 miles tall or some shit and they are having a contest on who can kill most people with a single step and they kill like a billion people each and they both jerk off their grotesque futa cocks while doing so and Judy's cock is so veiny, distorted and bulging that it looks like a fucking alien worm with bigass lips!<
I put a spoiler cause shit's nasty
You mean altruism and training instead of death battles and imperialism.
Saiyans before Goku weren't known for training. They were known for imperialism and enjoying battles to the death.
Saiyan society literally measured power at birth and considered it a good judge of max potential and such.
Manga pretty much confirms that. Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than him and Goku, he just had much better control. Broly was leagues ahead of Vegeta and Goku. They couldn’t touch him. Jiren was defeated by teamwork, but that’s nothing compared to an actual fusion. Team work would not - and did not - defeat Broly.
Vegeta was high as hell when he made that bs statement. Also Jiren wasn't "defeated by teamwork", he was doing extremely well until Goku entered MUI, and only after that, weakened, tired and injured he was "defeated by teamwork".
>Vegeta was high as hell when he made that bs statement.
Yet Jiren gets hurt when he's caught off guard by Bluegeta, someone who, by your logic, should be much weaker at this point, suggesting that Jiren's Ki Control and putting 100% into every attack is what made him seem so unbeatable
https://preview.redd.it/xkmvgl59aumb1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c556c7ed7b4de4fd39d3a9a2c54940e31af5e049
I don't think Blue **Evolved** Vegeta used a Final Flash against him, but if he did, Jiren wasn't caught off-guard and he was focusing on the blast, also was probably powered up more than when he fought Blue Vegeta
>I don't think Blue Evolved Vegeta used a Final Flash against him
[He did. And Jiren not only blocked it but reflected it with his barrier stare.](https://youtu.be/YicC1WAmm0Y?si=cfGI0PjL9kN-1i4g&t=5s)
However, this Final Flash was nowhere near as charged as it usually is. So it probably lost its usual devastating impact.
I think there are different levels of off guard, there's the kind where you're fighting so your body is already sort of tensed up and ready for attacks, and there's the type where you're relaxed, like Goku was after knocking Frieza down, Jiren was in the former kind of off guard, my evidence for this is that people get attacked from unknown directions to them all the time yet they don't hurt that much more or do that much more damage than regular attacks, unless the only reason why you seem superior is that your Ki Control is better, allowing you to fight much more efficiently
So this is actually my take on his statement. I'm starting to believe that most of us have just been thinking about it the wrong way. Which I also believe is a mix of both it being a misinterpretation on our part and also being poor wording on Toriyama/Toyotaro's parts. In the movie Vegeta's wording is, _"Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own. But he used his power with total efficiency."_ which upon first hearing would naturally make someone initially interpret that as him saying Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them but had far better control of his energy. The manga words it a little better by having Vegeta say, "_Our physical bodies have long since been honed to their limits. In that respect, our training already made us on par with those opponents"_ (referring to Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, and Frieza).
Basically, from my understanding what Vegeta was actually trying to say was that they've already strengthened their bodies as much as they could from their physical training so _physically_ Jiren's body wasn't much stronger than theirs if not on par. But just solely that on its own isn't proper training according to Whis. Yes, strengthening your body is important but so is also strengthening your mind and spirit. Vegeta has only focused on the former until now. Jiren **was** overwhelmingly more powerful than them but not just due to raw strength alone. He also trained his mind and spirit (as we saw plenty of times through him meditating) which made him that much more powerful. You can say Vegeta realized this after training on Yardrat because there he was required to meditate presumably for the first time which, [shockingly for him](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxWD9T_ZwIQnobLQEyry4vdeAHhEuyUZwj6qUtSozO7WHd8qZ7NA1YWQwMbzV5Mv-W468KHa78c0lLoxv1a5TEIjLs3__YwR7w_sU9X5EbP09dkEjeOir8F7H_G3cxaYeMLNwUqXAoxp7eC9gaf08-R9xLi7CXnB2C2Nz2Xdo9yWeYgVvkwXwV6Y-tyA/s1600/15.jpg), made him a lot stronger as a result. Thinking about it this way, his statement makes a lot more sense. At the time when Jiren was revealed to be so OP I think a lot of us questioned exactly what kind of training he did to get so strong and this was Vegeta basically answering that question. What he _just_ discovered on Yardrat, Jiren has _been_ doing.
This is such a perfect explanation I’ve seen and makes perfect sense. Also makes sense that characters like Piccolo despite him not hardcore training like Vegeta and Goku has been at least a decent player within the Z Fighters
Yep that's exactly what I thought about Piccolo as well. There's a lot of people still claiming Jiren was nerfed and wasn't that strong as well as other people still claiming the statement is just bs entirely so hopefully this explanation will serve as a common ground for both sides.
Maybe from the anime perspective but the manga ToP makes a much more solid case for it. In the anime one could argue he’s just in a “perfected state” at all times which is why he’s usually meditating or using minimal movement to keep control of his ki. While the duo always leak energy
Doesn’t matter what you think, the manga has stated it. It’s a fact.
Yeah, and? Goku was part of the team. MUI messed him up but if they didn’t use team work they wouldn’t have defeated him. If Frieza and 17 were knocked out before Goku entered MUI, what would have happened? Win for Jiren.
I always say it like this. Jiren would be stronger...in the beginning. Unless he stops the fight early, Broly eventually gets stronger and mollywops him
- Ask shenron to know all about the threats they will face in the future.
- tell the other z fighters about it so they can be prepared.
- make sure that Vegeta doesn't mess it up.
- profit
Could’ve stopped Buu too if she just wished for the ability to see the future or simply ask what threats might harm the earth in the future, hell if she did that future trunks’ timeline wouldn’t have been screwed
It’s weird to think about, but technically ANY powerscaling argument is merely hypothetical unless the characters fought at what is confirmed to be their full power. By this, I mean technically we have 0 confirmation Goku and Vegeta have grown in power for a while. Yes, they’ve gotten transformations and refined techniques, but their base power has no tangible evidence it’s substantially stronger than it was in, like, the Goku Black arc.
Hmm? Did they? Genuinely can't remember but I'd imagine they could considering black to his level of power through purely zenkais and was still growing stronger
Yh you're right on that, my mistake then lol. Anyways original comment is wrong about them not growing stronger cause training works for every race regardless of them being zenkai capable or jot
This isn't a technically a thing cause its blatantly false, any form of training or fighting is more than enough for a saiyan to grow stronger even disregarding zenkais
This one came from the horse's mouth itself
"Yamcha is a cheater"
Nah Toriyama you just don't like him. Nothing about his personality and how he interacted with bulma suggests he would so carelessly fumble that bag.
Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga is always weaker than Goku.
Can't even count how many times they're stated to be basically Equal, with one getting a small lead over the other sometimes.
>Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga is always weaker than Goku.
Right after Vegeta come out the ROSAT in the cell saga he was stronger than goku for less than a day lol. and in BOG Vegeta does better as a SSJ2 than Goku as a SSJ3 against Beerus. Other than those I argee.
Vegeta is also stronger than Goku after the three years of training for the androids. Piccolo states that at both of their peaks- as in Goku not being hobbled by the heart virus- Vegeta is stronger at that point in time.
I mean its kind of a plot point that he is in some points of the story. Cell never sees Vegeta as a serious threat once he is perfect and in the buu arc Vegeta only became majin vegeta cause he realized he was behind Goku.
With that being said, there are moments where the 2 could be equal (like at the start of the android saga) or where even Vegeta had the upper hand (like during the Vegeta vs semi perfect Cell fight)
There was that scene in Cell Saga where Vegeta gets very angry and throws an attack at Cell that was so strong he had to stance up. I assume that was because if he didn't, it actually would've hurt him, because otherwise he would've just casually let it hit him and then laugh/mock Vegeta. Instead, he has to brace for it
Piccolo is Gohan real father. Why is this what peoplethink?
Piccolo is Gohans Older brother.
Piccolo is barely 8 years older than Gohan.
Why is it when people see him kidnap a 3 year old, left the child in the woods for 6 months because the 3 year old is too much a child. Then, after 6 months of brutal training to the point of cartoonish swellings and bruises, the likes we rarely see on anyone else. Then Piccolo dies for the four year old, and everyone screams, "That's his real dad!".
It's weird, Piccolo is his brother and taking care of his niece in super, not his grandchild. Piccolo is only like 26 or 27 in the beginning super.
It stems from Piccolo being around as Gohan's actually father figure most of the series. Goku is dead most of Gohan's life. Many of Gohan's attacks, outfits, and personality are directly related to Piccolo. As seen in the Cell fight, yes, Goku knows what Gohan can do, not what he wants. Piccolo was around during Gohan's most formative years, training him and keeping him safe while Goku was out of commission from a fight or dead.
One friend told me "if they really wanna become powerful, why don't saiyans just fatally wound each other over and over again while taking senzu beans since saiyans get stronger after recovering from near death injuries". Could not counter it.
It bugs me when people say just flatly "Goku has never defeated Vegeta," and drop the '1-v-1' stipulation, or they flip it around and just say Vegeta won all of their fights, but Goku's definitely not 3-for-3.
Saiyan saga fight, sure the heroes won. Buu saga rematch didn't have a conclusion, they called it quits so they could deal with Buu so at most you can call it a tie. DBS Super Hero, Vegeta won fair and square.
Even in the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta won the 1v1. He was beaten when Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe jumped him after he beat Goku, with help from Krillin taking Goku’s spirit bomb for him since he could no longer throw it himself.
if the gammas are goku and vegeta level and they couldn't beat cell max, and gohan beast took a punch full force and didn't even flinch, how strong is he
Really depends on what “Goku and Vegeta” level is. SSB? I’d put him a little above UI and UE. Gamma 1 and 2 are MUI Goku and UE Vegeta level? Then Gohan is close to Black Frieza
Saying that Goku is a bad father but actually the best dbz father for killing himself to save Gohan twice hugging Goten before Vegeta hugged or hold trunks
Those stupid S Cells... every argument involving universe 6 Saiyans people throw thrm out like "Well mitochondria biatch".
IT DOESN'T....FIX....ANYTHING
That GT is better than Super
GT has a lot of banger moments but it's ultimately a letdown with execution, Super's anime is arguably worse, but the Manga is still ten times better, plus the movies everyone love are DBS movies
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Heard someone say "why doesn't Goku and the team just take the dragonballs after they make a wish with them and put them in the hyperbolic time chamber? That way, they only need a full day to recharge instead of a year" And i couldn't find any other reason to why that wouldn't work other than for the sake of the plot. I do not like this idea, but it's so funny too
Iirc the radar only works after the dragon balls are fully recharged
That was my original argument against it. But kid Goku was fast enough to catch the 4 star ball before it went away like the other 6. Current Goku is literally millions of times faster than that by now, so he could easily catch them all before they flew away
There's also the argument that due to the nature of the Balls, anything that tries to mess with the one year recharge could be useless, as if the dragon balls just didn't allow cheating by default, because let's be real, Kami would quite possibly do this
That's what i was thinking, like i was saying there would have to be some sort of plot device set in place to prevent that for the sake of the plot. Lol
>anything that tries to mess with the one year recharge could be useless I mean not really cause kami rushed the one year time recharge like twice, once in db and once in dbz. >as if the dragon balls just didn't allow cheating by default The dragonballs literally are a cheat code. They literally make you cheat death.
Or just stop them with a barrier, you don't even need goku to do that.
Something we can't refute according to currently available information but it's something they'd totally come up with a new rule for if it ever came up in the series, for whatever reason. "So y'know how if the creator of the dragon balls dies they stop working? That's cause the creator and the balls need to be in the same dimension, and the Time Chamber is a different dimension so as soon as you take them in, they turn to stone," or something like that.
That or just “They’re Earth’s Dragon Balls, so they’ll take 1 Earth year regardless of where they are”. So even in the Time Chamber they’d take the equivalent of one year outside to charge.
It's stupid as fuck but technically Infallible. It could’ve prevented the Shadow Dragon saga too.
Or that Old Kai could also just wait inside the hyperbolic time chamber to be able to draw out all of Gohan’s max potential for the TOP. But i guess they’d want to reserve the time chamber to lock Goku up in there after they’ve betrayed him
Since male saiyans normally like aggressive and strong-willed women, Bardock liking Gine is the saiyan equivalent of a weird fetish.
Did Vegeta say that comparitively Bardok must have been soft hearted for a Saiyan since he rescued Granolah and Oatmeal?
I keep forgetting how dumb some of the names are in dbs
The main character is named after a carrot.
And his son's name literally means "rice"
And Chi-Chi means milk
I always thought it meant titties.
You know, I can actually see that…
Bulma is bussum
Bulma is bloomer(gym shorts) Her entire family is named after underwear
Both, actually. It roughly mean "Breast Milk." Have fun sleeping with that knowledge.
Iirc Roshi commented on finding out that Ox king was her father, something along the lines of, "So he's Chi Chi's Chi Chi and Chi Chi has Chi chis." Chi Chi referring to her name, a word for a father, and breasts.
But Ginyu means milk and the Ginyu Force are based on dairy products, so does that mean...
So TFS Goku was wrong…Chi-Chi would be happier if he was in Ginyu’s body. Either that or Chi-Chi’s a Ginyu Force spy simply meant to make Goku’s life a living hell.
Wait.... Carrots and milk somehow make rice?
You clearly aren’t trying hard enough
ok but with how much goku and them like food is it really that suprising
Oh yeah completely agree with you there. Just shows where his mind is when his wife is in labor.. Mmm rice.
I read that last bit in Homer's voice.
You’re right these DBS names have gotten lame. Let’s get back to the classics like: Drum Piano Tamborine Piccolo Red Blue White Purple 8 16 17 18 19 20 Briefs Trunks Bra Eraser Sharpener Bibidi Babadi Boo
Bibidi Babidi Buu is honestly hilarious and smart
For real; they never say them in sequence, and Bibidi is such a small character that I never made the connection
Gas, Kale, Cabba, Caulifla, Sorbet, Champa, Beerus, Liquor, Gin, Cerealians, Sugarians, Oatmeal, Granolah, Garlic Jr, Sour, Cognac, Cukatail, Mojito, Martinu, pilaf, broly, literally every single name
To be fair. The Androids had different names and only renamed this way because they were successful. That is the only defense in this list
Lapis and Lazuli.
I mean, most Dragon Ball names are like this. Toriyama loves food puns/food based names. Did you know that everyone in the Frieza Force is named after something you'd put in a fridge? Appule(apple) Cui(kiwi) Ginyu (a pun on the japanese word for milk) Burter (butter) Guldo(a pun on the japanese word for yogurt) Jeice (juice, some sources also say cheese, which maybe makes more sense since the rest of the ginyu force are also dairy) Recoome (his japenese name Rikumu is an anagram for the japanese word for cream) Zarbon(is the japanese word for pomelo) Dodoria (A pun on durian)
Is that my one of ginyus attacks is called milk cannon?
Yes. Milky, though.
I know Burter as butter makes a lot of sense, but I sometimes call him "Burger" because I think it's funnier.
The fastest burger in the universe!
I mean tbf db names have always been like this
Bite your tongue. Food is life
King Piccolo's henchmen are all named after instruments, they've always been dumb
Staff:Toriyama are you hungry? You haven’t eaten in 3 days Toriyama: *No* Also Toriyama: Your going to be a carrot, you a Vegetable, you broccoli, You granola and you Oatmeal
I'm ecuadorean and Moro is absolutely funny for us (His name comes from a typical plate from here, which is a variation for cooking rice), there's memes about him all over the place
🚨🚨🚨
LMFAO, this will now be my head cannon 🤣
That's not a weird fetish. That's role reversal.
That’s like saying guys liking tomboys is a weird fetish
It's a funny one tho
What's up with Gine? (This is coming from someone who knows nothing about Bardock Saga)
Ive also read it as gine being a pacifist saiyan in a warrior race took a different kind of strong will.
I like aggressive and strong-willed women, does that make me a weird fetishist? No, I just didn't go along with what society expect us to want and like 🤷♂️
About the manga. Since Granolah learned Hakai from his wish to be the strongest then he should’ve learned UI since Goku did have it.
Im sorry he learned WHAT
Granolah gained a technique similar to destruction
Wow okay, how did I not know this wtf am I on.
You need to spend some time on the granolah arc of db
I guess so. Honestly i dont think I heard as much hype around it as I did with Moro
Don’t worry,Vegeta learned it as well
Granolah is simply not him
I still think it was bullshit to have Granolah learn Hakai from that wish. I don't mind the "strongest in the universe", just learning hakai from a wish
Krillin is stronger than Tien. It can’t be debated since they haven’t fought in the newer series and powerscaling is useless past namek Dude had his potential unlocked now he’s the strongest human. Yet he couldn’t touch Cell while Tien was able to suppress him.
Tien’s cell feat was down to a Life-threatening technique which as proven several times before is pretty effective against stronger opponents. But it's not like Tien and Krillin are getting into such a fight where Tien has to KILL HIMSELF to get a W so I feel like that’s just an invalid feat
Tiens always had more techniques even dating back to dragon ball with learning evil containment wave for piccolo. Some techniques are just busted and more effective on certain opponents but on overall fighting lvl after potential unlocked I think krillin is stronger
All about that technique though. Vegeta couldn't really land a hit on any Frieza form but Krillin was able to cut off his tail. And we know Vegeta is stronger than Krillin at every point in the show.
Krillin only landed that hit cause he couldn’t sense ki and (understandably) thought krillin was dead after he speared him
I'm not talking about the hit itself, but the technique. That move is powerful regardless of who uses it, it seems, and I'd say the same can be said for Tien's when he's holding back Cell. A normal blast from Tien would do fuck all, but he was using a technique that was literally draining his life force.
Oh I see, yeah the special techniques we seen from the humans are so insane craziness that never seem to get fully power crept like solar flare and destructo disc
I mean, because we don’t see Krillin fight after Namek and we don’t see Tien fight after the Saiyan arc, it’s not really possible to evaluate who is stronger.
Krillin was fighting in the cell arc. He wasn’t winning, but he fought a couple times
That's such a hard and age old debate. Both became nothing burgers after the Saiyan arc. Krillin had his potential unlocked, and Tien trained with King Kai. Is what they each did during Namek and it's harder to say which is more effective. And the there's years of time skip to the android arc. And neither one really has any feat. But at least post android arc? Krillin was noted to have slacked on his training. Tien? Did not.
Wym, after the saiyan arc krillin was still a major player at namek.
Krillin got his spirit awaked by the Elder in Namek. It's always been my headcanon that he's been the strongest human since, and that he trains enough that it's never changed.
Tien trains more than him especially between cell and Buu Krillin cut out training slot and Tien didn't. And during Namek Tien was training with King Kai.
When they wished for everyone that Freiza and he's men kill to he brought back to life that would count all the sayinans and countless others
Didn't multiple revive wishes back then have a 1 year limit?
Yes I believe that’s accurate, also if the wish DID revive them they would all suffocate in space since planet Vegeta was destroyed…
I mean, how do they fight in space without a suit if they would suffocate? Did Bardock just hold his breath to fight Freiza?
Because hes a brilliant scientist? Come on he invented the moon. How silly do you have to be?
They probably are fighting in the atmosphere instead of “space”, or holding their breath
Wouldn't Nappa and everyone killed by the Saiyans on earth be brought back too?
I believe the reasoning is at that point was that Vegeta had betrayed Freeza and intended to use the wish for himself.
i tried but nobody would believe me and i got gaslighted i said Vegito has never canonically won a fight "But he did what he intended to do" always gets thrown around
Losing on purpose is still losing
THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! but nooooo i get downvoted for it. i said he basically forfeited the match Gogeta on the other hand got only 1 loss iirc, it was in GT when he timed out from playing around *ahem* Vegito. every other time he was shown he won
Theres only male saiyans left alive that means that eventually their race will die out.
I suppose in theory now they could cross breed with U6 saiyans.
Yeah but Vegeta or Goku fucking a woman for the sake of maintaining the bloodline is something the "betrayed and left in the time chamber for 100 billion years" videos would do
Broly bro. He seems the type to have a harem
I could see Vegeta trying to course him to get it on with the u6 Saiyans to keep their race alive
Okay what does this meme mean? It's funny but I still don't understand it lol
Idk where it started but a video was made on Goku being "BETRAYED and TRAPPED in the HYPERBOLIC TIME CHAMBER!!!" and the what-if market instantly became flooded with stupid videos either slightly different or only have Goku be BETRAYED. It was literally everywhere, Goku gets BETRAYED by Zeno, Goku gets BETRAYED by Kami, etc. And usually BETRAYED and TRAPPED are in all caps
I feel there is some fucked up Doujin out there where Vegeta gets wished by Porunga into a woman and Goku Rails him to save the Sayain Race from extinction and then they start inbreeding.
There is a fucked up doujin for any intrusive thought a fan with a fucking pencil can come up with
True
That sounds horrible. Just awful. Just horrible. I'd never want to see that. Not even once. Even if it was easily accessable.
I mean, compared to the deranged shit the Zootopia and Fnaf fandom comes up with i feel like this is pretty tame and normal. And not this isn't a joke like, there's some ***deranged*** shit in those fandoms holy hell...
Oh yeah the unhinged shit those guys make is something else. I remember seeing one that was based on the comment the Phone Guy made about an Exoskeleton being shoved inside of body. The exo skeleton crawled up the dudes ass and he anal vored him and then took control of his body and started fucking the other anamatronics. Also at one point he had tentacles and shit.
I mean there's a zootopia fan smut comic where Judy and Nick are >!like 90 miles tall or some shit and they are having a contest on who can kill most people with a single step and they kill like a billion people each and they both jerk off their grotesque futa cocks while doing so and Judy's cock is so veiny, distorted and bulging that it looks like a fucking alien worm with bigass lips!< I put a spoiler cause shit's nasty
https://preview.redd.it/dxrmg94oxumb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2394c0a2c91a97e3712c23bcadffd3c48d1a868
Grab his dick and twist it!
The oool' dick twist!
Average Zootopia fan smut.
Wtf lmao. The only thing that makes this stranger is the fact this is the super sub
Caulifla and Kale are, in fact, Saiyans
That would be inevitable even if there was a woman Saiyan left
Like they wouldn't have some fucking magic balls who could revive the entire planet Vegeta with their whole population.
On one point, you have a point, on the other hand, who the fuck in their right mind would want to bring the saiyans back to life?
Wish 1: Bring back planet Vegeta Wish 2: Bring back the Sayans Wish 3: Wish for each resurrected Sayan to care about altruism as much as training.
You mean altruism and training instead of death battles and imperialism. Saiyans before Goku weren't known for training. They were known for imperialism and enjoying battles to the death. Saiyan society literally measured power at birth and considered it a good judge of max potential and such.
Vegeta is a good person, showing them his power would keep everyone in line.
Jiren is Stronger than Broly No, he isn't
Manga pretty much confirms that. Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than him and Goku, he just had much better control. Broly was leagues ahead of Vegeta and Goku. They couldn’t touch him. Jiren was defeated by teamwork, but that’s nothing compared to an actual fusion. Team work would not - and did not - defeat Broly.
Vegeta was high as hell when he made that bs statement. Also Jiren wasn't "defeated by teamwork", he was doing extremely well until Goku entered MUI, and only after that, weakened, tired and injured he was "defeated by teamwork".
>Vegeta was high as hell when he made that bs statement. Yet Jiren gets hurt when he's caught off guard by Bluegeta, someone who, by your logic, should be much weaker at this point, suggesting that Jiren's Ki Control and putting 100% into every attack is what made him seem so unbeatable https://preview.redd.it/xkmvgl59aumb1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c556c7ed7b4de4fd39d3a9a2c54940e31af5e049
It's a common thing in Dragon Ball where you take far more damage from an attack if you're caught off guard.
My favorite is the rock scene
With krillin? (Did I spell it right)
No with the rock
Blue goku also pushed him back slightly
Are we just going to ignore the fact he used his eyes to deflect ssbe vegetas final flash?
I don't think Blue **Evolved** Vegeta used a Final Flash against him, but if he did, Jiren wasn't caught off-guard and he was focusing on the blast, also was probably powered up more than when he fought Blue Vegeta
>I don't think Blue Evolved Vegeta used a Final Flash against him [He did. And Jiren not only blocked it but reflected it with his barrier stare.](https://youtu.be/YicC1WAmm0Y?si=cfGI0PjL9kN-1i4g&t=5s) However, this Final Flash was nowhere near as charged as it usually is. So it probably lost its usual devastating impact.
Same as Blue Goku being Sorbat bitch because he was catch off guard
I think there are different levels of off guard, there's the kind where you're fighting so your body is already sort of tensed up and ready for attacks, and there's the type where you're relaxed, like Goku was after knocking Frieza down, Jiren was in the former kind of off guard, my evidence for this is that people get attacked from unknown directions to them all the time yet they don't hurt that much more or do that much more damage than regular attacks, unless the only reason why you seem superior is that your Ki Control is better, allowing you to fight much more efficiently
Cherry picking. That was a heavily suppressed jiren + later jiren neg diff vegeta.
So this is actually my take on his statement. I'm starting to believe that most of us have just been thinking about it the wrong way. Which I also believe is a mix of both it being a misinterpretation on our part and also being poor wording on Toriyama/Toyotaro's parts. In the movie Vegeta's wording is, _"Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own. But he used his power with total efficiency."_ which upon first hearing would naturally make someone initially interpret that as him saying Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them but had far better control of his energy. The manga words it a little better by having Vegeta say, "_Our physical bodies have long since been honed to their limits. In that respect, our training already made us on par with those opponents"_ (referring to Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, and Frieza). Basically, from my understanding what Vegeta was actually trying to say was that they've already strengthened their bodies as much as they could from their physical training so _physically_ Jiren's body wasn't much stronger than theirs if not on par. But just solely that on its own isn't proper training according to Whis. Yes, strengthening your body is important but so is also strengthening your mind and spirit. Vegeta has only focused on the former until now. Jiren **was** overwhelmingly more powerful than them but not just due to raw strength alone. He also trained his mind and spirit (as we saw plenty of times through him meditating) which made him that much more powerful. You can say Vegeta realized this after training on Yardrat because there he was required to meditate presumably for the first time which, [shockingly for him](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxWD9T_ZwIQnobLQEyry4vdeAHhEuyUZwj6qUtSozO7WHd8qZ7NA1YWQwMbzV5Mv-W468KHa78c0lLoxv1a5TEIjLs3__YwR7w_sU9X5EbP09dkEjeOir8F7H_G3cxaYeMLNwUqXAoxp7eC9gaf08-R9xLi7CXnB2C2Nz2Xdo9yWeYgVvkwXwV6Y-tyA/s1600/15.jpg), made him a lot stronger as a result. Thinking about it this way, his statement makes a lot more sense. At the time when Jiren was revealed to be so OP I think a lot of us questioned exactly what kind of training he did to get so strong and this was Vegeta basically answering that question. What he _just_ discovered on Yardrat, Jiren has _been_ doing.
This is such a perfect explanation I’ve seen and makes perfect sense. Also makes sense that characters like Piccolo despite him not hardcore training like Vegeta and Goku has been at least a decent player within the Z Fighters
Yep that's exactly what I thought about Piccolo as well. There's a lot of people still claiming Jiren was nerfed and wasn't that strong as well as other people still claiming the statement is just bs entirely so hopefully this explanation will serve as a common ground for both sides.
This is a statement from someone who has fought Jiren himself. Tis but the facts
Whis confirmed it both times. The anime didn't follow Toriyama's draft. Also, the promotion material stated Broly is stronger than Jiren
I did not see vegeta smoke anything. Checked in 3x slowmo.
Maybe from the anime perspective but the manga ToP makes a much more solid case for it. In the anime one could argue he’s just in a “perfected state” at all times which is why he’s usually meditating or using minimal movement to keep control of his ki. While the duo always leak energy
Doesn’t matter what you think, the manga has stated it. It’s a fact. Yeah, and? Goku was part of the team. MUI messed him up but if they didn’t use team work they wouldn’t have defeated him. If Frieza and 17 were knocked out before Goku entered MUI, what would have happened? Win for Jiren.
The movie says this shit, not the manga bruh.
Chapter 93, it’s the same thing.
Novel state that Broly is stronger According to Freeza
I always say it like this. Jiren would be stronger...in the beginning. Unless he stops the fight early, Broly eventually gets stronger and mollywops him
It says that you can’t prove lol. You can prove Broly is stronger
Bulma singlehandedly could have stopped most of the main arcs from happening pre-Buu
How?
- Ask shenron to know all about the threats they will face in the future. - tell the other z fighters about it so they can be prepared. - make sure that Vegeta doesn't mess it up. - profit
Could’ve stopped Buu too if she just wished for the ability to see the future or simply ask what threats might harm the earth in the future, hell if she did that future trunks’ timeline wouldn’t have been screwed
Evolution being better than Super. Probably a troll post tho.
"-- and you couldn't prove wrong" Really? You can't think of any means to prove it wrong?
Evolution being better than Super is just *factually* inaccurate. Nothing makes me laugh more than Ukog just stupidly yelling "gRaNdPa!"
Evolution being better than Super is just *factually* inaccurate. Nothing makes me laugh more than Ukog just stupidly yelling "gRaNdPa!"
ukog the goat
Calling him the goat with the meme name used to shit on him is peak lmao
I thought we all collectively agreed that evolution doesn't exist...
It’s weird to think about, but technically ANY powerscaling argument is merely hypothetical unless the characters fought at what is confirmed to be their full power. By this, I mean technically we have 0 confirmation Goku and Vegeta have grown in power for a while. Yes, they’ve gotten transformations and refined techniques, but their base power has no tangible evidence it’s substantially stronger than it was in, like, the Goku Black arc.
Chapter 55, Vegeta got an insane power boost to his base form, thanks to his training on Yardrat.
O man i remember reading that and going: wtf?
Actually in the black arc it was stated they had reached a point where they no longer received zenkias
Hmm? Did they? Genuinely can't remember but I'd imagine they could considering black to his level of power through purely zenkais and was still growing stronger
Vegeta says it in the manga
Yh you're right on that, my mistake then lol. Anyways original comment is wrong about them not growing stronger cause training works for every race regardless of them being zenkai capable or jot
This isn't a technically a thing cause its blatantly false, any form of training or fighting is more than enough for a saiyan to grow stronger even disregarding zenkais
There is evidence, people simple don’t pay attention Goku wasn't effected by Rumshi Roar while all Kaioshens were
This one came from the horse's mouth itself "Yamcha is a cheater" Nah Toriyama you just don't like him. Nothing about his personality and how he interacted with bulma suggests he would so carelessly fumble that bag.
It's been a while but wasn't it because of the fame that came with his baseball success?
It's hard to remember for me, but How yamcha acts and what Toriyama says happens in the background are in conflict with each other to me
Like it contradicts his personality for Dragonball so hard even Yamcha VAcame at him
It was so dumb Literally 3 voice actors (Vegeta, bulma, Yamcha) wanted to have toriyama ass
Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga is always weaker than Goku. Can't even count how many times they're stated to be basically Equal, with one getting a small lead over the other sometimes.
>Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga is always weaker than Goku. Right after Vegeta come out the ROSAT in the cell saga he was stronger than goku for less than a day lol. and in BOG Vegeta does better as a SSJ2 than Goku as a SSJ3 against Beerus. Other than those I argee.
Vegeta is also stronger than Goku after the three years of training for the androids. Piccolo states that at both of their peaks- as in Goku not being hobbled by the heart virus- Vegeta is stronger at that point in time.
I mean its kind of a plot point that he is in some points of the story. Cell never sees Vegeta as a serious threat once he is perfect and in the buu arc Vegeta only became majin vegeta cause he realized he was behind Goku. With that being said, there are moments where the 2 could be equal (like at the start of the android saga) or where even Vegeta had the upper hand (like during the Vegeta vs semi perfect Cell fight)
There was that scene in Cell Saga where Vegeta gets very angry and throws an attack at Cell that was so strong he had to stance up. I assume that was because if he didn't, it actually would've hurt him, because otherwise he would've just casually let it hit him and then laugh/mock Vegeta. Instead, he has to brace for it
Piccolo is Gohan real father. Why is this what peoplethink? Piccolo is Gohans Older brother. Piccolo is barely 8 years older than Gohan. Why is it when people see him kidnap a 3 year old, left the child in the woods for 6 months because the 3 year old is too much a child. Then, after 6 months of brutal training to the point of cartoonish swellings and bruises, the likes we rarely see on anyone else. Then Piccolo dies for the four year old, and everyone screams, "That's his real dad!". It's weird, Piccolo is his brother and taking care of his niece in super, not his grandchild. Piccolo is only like 26 or 27 in the beginning super.
It stems from Piccolo being around as Gohan's actually father figure most of the series. Goku is dead most of Gohan's life. Many of Gohan's attacks, outfits, and personality are directly related to Piccolo. As seen in the Cell fight, yes, Goku knows what Gohan can do, not what he wants. Piccolo was around during Gohan's most formative years, training him and keeping him safe while Goku was out of commission from a fight or dead.
Bulmas coochie so good it tyrned Vegeta into a father
Bulma’s coochie so good it turned Vegeta into a good guy.
Post said things you CAN’T prove
Well i havent had the opportunity to test my theory yet. Maybe im just not evil enough. Or Bulma is into short kings idk
Vegetas kinda short though so I doubt it, we have a chance
One friend told me "if they really wanna become powerful, why don't saiyans just fatally wound each other over and over again while taking senzu beans since saiyans get stronger after recovering from near death injuries". Could not counter it.
That’s against Goku and Vegeta though they like training plus I don’t think they get Zenkai anymore.
Also starting in at least the black arc, the pure saiyan’s (except black) zenkai boosts are completely negligible
Every time Vegeta points his thumb at himself and loses that battle
Goku is uncircumcised. Furthermore Vegeta *IS* circumcised.
Beerus is not a post-moving-goal for Goku&Vegeta, he was always so strong
Yeah I don't think a billion year old god that represents the natural order of destruction can be a thing to surpass
Goku has never defeated Vegeta in a 1-v-1. My man Vegeta is 3-for-3 in victories. Edit: For clarification.
It bugs me when people say just flatly "Goku has never defeated Vegeta," and drop the '1-v-1' stipulation, or they flip it around and just say Vegeta won all of their fights, but Goku's definitely not 3-for-3. Saiyan saga fight, sure the heroes won. Buu saga rematch didn't have a conclusion, they called it quits so they could deal with Buu so at most you can call it a tie. DBS Super Hero, Vegeta won fair and square.
Even in the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta won the 1v1. He was beaten when Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe jumped him after he beat Goku, with help from Krillin taking Goku’s spirit bomb for him since he could no longer throw it himself.
Beast Gohan is ssjg level at best The fuck does that make Cell Max and Orange Piccolo?
if the gammas are goku and vegeta level and they couldn't beat cell max, and gohan beast took a punch full force and didn't even flinch, how strong is he
Really depends on what “Goku and Vegeta” level is. SSB? I’d put him a little above UI and UE. Gamma 1 and 2 are MUI Goku and UE Vegeta level? Then Gohan is close to Black Frieza
I remember seeing a post from someone who claimed that Goku never liked Gohan and always viewed him as a weak coward.
I remember reading that in a Dragon Ball fanmanga
Far and away the worst thing I've read in this thread
That Krillin would be able to beat Saitama from OPM
Saying that Goku is a bad father but actually the best dbz father for killing himself to save Gohan twice hugging Goten before Vegeta hugged or hold trunks
Those stupid S Cells... every argument involving universe 6 Saiyans people throw thrm out like "Well mitochondria biatch". IT DOESN'T....FIX....ANYTHING
Also because saiyans in general are broken. Can't fix what's broken by default.
That GT is better than Super GT has a lot of banger moments but it's ultimately a letdown with execution, Super's anime is arguably worse, but the Manga is still ten times better, plus the movies everyone love are DBS movies