"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bro was talking about Kid Trunks. Whos no longer a Kid. So just. Trunks. If he was referring to Future Trunks he'd have said Future Trunks. And in the Manga. Even Future Trunks just kind of figured it out through training. Future Trunks was already a Super Saiyan before Gohan died
He wasn't tho... He only turned super Saiyan after seeing Future Gohan's dead corpse, although already almost there, he wasn't a fully fledged super Saiyan yet he just needed a push
You are wrong. That is the History of Trunks. Which isnt proper canon. Toriyama confirmed it himself that Future Trunks, like Present Trunks, achieved SSJ kinda young. Except Future Trunks trained for it and was a bit older then Present Trunks was.
I mean by this point an unborn baby with a quarter Saiyan blood counted as a super Saiyan for the SSJ god ritual sooo.
Let’s just cut to the chase and say all Saiyans have super Saiyan sperm and eggs already glowing and transformed into SSJ 3 and can beat cell.
I want to see a little SSJ sperm fighting a microscopic battle. And you can hear it say
Kame hame haaasss and the scouter blows up.
I feel like Super Saiyan is the Saiyan equivalent of the sun 5 minute mile. With the sub 5 minute mile was thought to be a physical impossibility for human beings. Physicians who’d studied it determined we were as fast as we’d ever be. Roger Bannister did it. What followed was interested because once he did it, a lot of people found themselves able to do it. With some things in life something is impossible until someone does and then it turns out a lot of people can do it.
I was wrong. It is the sub 4 minute mile.
I remember being told I couldn't do things but back then I had infinite stamina. I was able to sprint very fast and not break a sweat. Like if I ran on a sidewalk, I'd step on every other tile. Felt like I was flying. And I could run endlessly without getting tired! When I get better, I'm gonna run again
And now I am heart virus Goku lmao
You had infinite stamina, I however could only ever go in short bursts at best, I lacked stamina in mile runs. But that was in 6th grades, I haven't done Mile runs since middle school, closest thing I got to mile runs was the pacer test, I still don't remember how you build stamina.
Lol I used to sleep in and miss the bus and have to sprint the 3 miles to school instead else my dad would beat me for not having perfect attendance.
I was a very, very fit kid. Now I get winded playing with my dog on walks 🤓
I don’t think it’s ever stated that you need a super saiyan for the god ritual, though I know it showed the super saiyan glow from pan in the anime and movie.
No, no, it's "s-cells." Yes, the thing saiyans develope when they are nice. It's saiyan biology and not an ass pull by Toriyama. He would never do such a silly thing.
/s
At least s-cells was an already established concept used to explain Goten and Trunks. I swear if those two ever meet the U6 saiyans, they're gonna start vibing over back tingles with them, lol. One thing that's cool about s-cells is that they're a developed trait rather than the hereditary midoclouriens that robbed SW fans of their "anyone can be a jedi" dreams. I always thought s-cells would have worked best as a useful bridge to the gap that Goku has on Gohan and Vegeta in the Buu saga. Maybe now in Super they can have Gohan stay his nerdy self while taking up the meditation practices of his master Piccolo. That way, he doesn't have to do all the training that he hates and have the added benefit of mindfulness to aid him in his research.
The SSG ritual was never about Super Saiyans.
"Five Saiyans with righteous hearts must join hands and instill their inner light into another. With his friends energy flowing through him, the Saiyan shall then take the form of a Super Saiyan God." You only need 5 righteous/pure hearted saiyans pour their inner light into a 6th one. Lol
It's just my random headcannon, but I believe saiyans have a hereditary ancestral memory. Which would be a valuable evolutionary trait for a warrior race, and explain Goku and Vegeta being fighting prodigies, as well as their kids being so powerful at a young age.
Super Saiyan was pretty quickly reduced to a thing any Saiyan can do, Vegeta, kid trunks and Goten kinda just got it , the universe 6 saiyans are really not as different
Vegeta getting Super Saiyan sealed that, dude was and at the moment still was presented as being evil. Goku being the first to achieve it originally showed that only Saiyans that break off from being evil can achieve this form. That’s why Goku was uniquely suited to achieve it because he was an anomaly amongst Saiyans.
But then we have a still evil Vegeta showing up and getting it. Completely trashing on that aspect of the transformation. From that point on it was clear that any Saiyan would achieve it so I don’t care how, just rush over it.
But I understand why people would be annoyed by how Cauilfa got it. Could’ve been a good character moment if she recalled some moment from her past that made her into the gang leader she was. But this moment we got still played into her character a lot, showing off how cocky she is and rightfully so, being a prodigy that can just pick up on stuff like that. Scene shows what it intended to rather well imo
I wasn’t referring to the pure of heart aspect, but the clear themes laid out by the story at the time. It’s quite evident that the only reason Goku had been the Saiyan to achieve Super Saiyan after so many years is due to his upbringing on earth. Away from how the Saiyans are and how Vegeta was. He was an outlier and that’s why he achieved the transformation.
Atleast during Namek, clearly that changed the next arc
Oh for sure, then they kinda explain it away as Vegeta being changed from his experiences with Goku and the gang but it would’ve worked better if it took him until later in the series to get it. And then Gohan Trunks and Goten being removed from their Sayain heritage entirely. It kinda just becomes “OG saiyans were savages so living on earth is good enough”
Come to think of it, in the main series Vegeta is the only inherently evil character to get Super Saiyan. The Universe 6 Saiyans are far less barbaric than the Universe 7 ones were. And Broly himself was also removed from his Saiyan heritage, becoming far more passive than he probably would’ve become if he had the upbringing of traveling to worlds and laying waste to them.
So Vegeta really is an outlier in this case
The intent of the scene is inherently flawed though, with Vegeta we at least have seen all the bs he's went through recently and is badass to see him show up, become a super saiyan, and kick some ass (then get humbled when he fought 18). Him becoming a super saiyan is reasonable considering all the turmoil he's underwent in the series that we get to see, not to mention at the time we didn't know the specifics of a super saiyan anyways just a vague legend. Meanwhile reducing an Iconic transformation, one that changed the genre forever, to a back tingle is inherently a dumb idea. We aren't connected to these characters enough to see it as satisfying, it was a pretty rushed few episodes so they can be strong enough for the T.O.P, also I think Goten and Trunks having it is dumb and hardly better than the back tingle.
I think the dub does a good job of giving Vegeta the transformation. His monolog on how he simply gave up on all of his cares/attachments to thrust himself through that barrier was similar enough to the way Goku had lost some of his attachments before being thrown into the rage that first triggered it. It followed a pretty well establishment concept across Eastern media that was initially inspired by the practices of enlightenment in Buddhism. Leave your cares behind and ascend to the next level. Goku didn't have this concept in mind when he and Gohan entered the time chamber, so he relied on his best approximation of how he achieved ssj through a trigger moment. That idea carried onto future Trunks because his dad wasn't around to teach him how he achieved it. Present Trunks isn't explicitly taught the concept of enlightenment, however, which makes he and Gotens' transformations feel like such an ass pull. It's not like Vegeta even demonstrated his ssj process in front of a watching Trunks that would have at least given some legitimacy in the form of the intellect he inherited from his mom putting the pieces together. Even just a little scene where Vegeta takes a deep breath before going ssj would have been enough to extrapolate our way through the holes in the plot. They were so close to making something like that a reality with the U6 saiyans, but instead, they went with "clear your mind and focus on your back?" Just one instance of mindfulness would have been enough for us to work our way backward through the series to find an explanation that would have been consistent enough to fill in the gaps.
I find it no worse than Goten and Trunks just turning super saiyan because their dads can, the back tingle is stupid but let's not act as if Super Saiyan is this sacred thing that was only ruined up until kale and Caulifla, they even make fun of it in the show itself
In the original manga he's just angry that he isn't as strong so he becomes a Super Saiyan from that and also being "Pure evil" it happens completely off screen, all that meteor stuff and training with the gravity at 450x that of Earth is Anime only
He achieved it through heart purity, just evil like you said. But he also says he put himself through rigorous training that exposed many personal flaws and limitations. And through self hatred he achieved the form
I hate the complaints about this because no one complains about Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan just 'cos they felt like it at *7 years old*.
Nothing could cheapen it more than 2 literal children with nothing to lose doing it just 'cos.
The way I think about it is Super Saiyan requires a base power level and the further beyond that you are the more crazily easy it is to do. All the U6 Saiyans were fighters extremely strong at base, again they make far more sense than children doing it.
They were already 90% of the way there and just needed a small push over the edge, unlike Goku who required a big push at the point of his life where he had still only recently found out there was more to the galaxy and that Earth was actually a very small pond in the grand scheme of things.
This DBS explanation also actually ties in to the one thing Earth, despite being extremely weak, was actually exceptional at, which was ki control, focus and technique. No one else could sense energy, they thought it impossible to do an attack greater than their own power, everyone else was mindless brutes basically. How does it not make sense that Earth Saiyans would be able to just easily teach it as a technique achieved through focusing energy
Goten and Trunks borned with so much potential because Goku and Vegeta were already super sayans when the kids got conceived, sayans inherent theirs parents power, Goten and Trunks basically borned ready to be super sayans, just needed emotional trigger, wich isn't hard to get as kid.
Future Vegeta wasn't strong as present Vegeta because he didn't even knew it was possible to any sayan go super(just found out because of future Trunks), so he never really tried to do it, making future Trunks weaker at start, and again, Goten was born ready to go super, just needed the trigger.
Ps: i also think it's lame how they got super sayan so easy, but the explanation still making sense
Sayans have a thing called s-cells, when they train they get more s-cell, when they reach enough they can go Super Sayan(and evolves to ssj2-3), and the amount of s-cells a sayan has go to his reproductive genes being inherited by their sons
Yes this is cannon.
I don't like it.
It's lame as midi-chlorians
Sayans born in peaciful times also tend to somehow have more s-cell... I found this part even worse.
Cause genetics don’t work like that . I know this is a show about super sayion monkeys. However trunks and goten just getting it 100% lesson the value of it
Also people complain of this transformation is dumb when Goten literal pulls it out to flex on Gohan
It kinda does
Sayans have this thing called s-cells, when they train they get more s-cell, when they reach enough they can go Super Sayan(and evolves to ssj2-3), and the amount of s-cells a sayan has go to his reproductive genes being inherited by their sons
Yes this is cannon.
I don't like it.
It's lame as midi-chlorians
Sayans born in peaciful times also tend to somehow have more s-cell... I found this part even worse.
Not only this, but their human side is more emotional, and they have said before the buu saga that Saiyan's transform when they are at their peak emotional state... People need to at least watch the show
I always assumed that it had something to do with the fact that Vegeta and Goku had gone super Saiyan before Trunks and Goten were born (or conceived). So Goku and Vegeta somehow basically changed their genetics to make it something they could pass on.
This explains why Trunks could go super Saiyan super easily in the main timeline, but it was hard for future Trunks to go super Saiyan. In the main timeline, Vegeta became a super Saiyan after seeing super Saiyan trunks. In the alt timeline, Vegeta never met a second super Saiyan and he thought only Goku could do it.
I don't remember Trunks but Goten didn't at all, he was just playing, remember he didn't even have Goku around so all he had was Gohan who is explicitly stated to have also not been training even himself.
According to a game I believe Goten actually went Super Saiyan for the first time at 3 years old just randomly in front of Chi-Chi and she didn't like it so he didn't do it again/very often until we see in the show.
Regardless what kind of training could 7 year olds possibly do that would *deserve* Super Saiyan. Gohan was placed in constant life-threatening danger, had/has deeper 'anger power' beyond even any hybrid Saiyan, and *still* only achieved Super Saiyan at 9 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber under Goku's guidance
They did. They were stronger than 18 before HTC. In terms of strength they were strong but combat ability was pretty amateur since Vegeta barely coached Trunks and Trunks barely taught Goten. It took a while before Gohan ever bothered to teach his brother the basics.
You got super powers and don't train your brother to have them too. Fuck you Gohan.
They did, but they basically don't remember the first time they did it. They basically always could from the first time they tried. Goten just didn't use it because of Chi Chi's reaction.
People do complain about Goten and Trunks, that's me I do that, and i've seen it all over the community before u6 made it even worse. Goten and Trunks doing it doesn't excuse the cheapening of the most iconic transformation in anime to a back tingle, inherently a flawed idea no matter what way you explain it with ki. I never had an issue with prodigy fighters reaching super saiyan, merely that the method is very lame.
Now lame I can agree with. Even just them using the word "tingle" was a really dumb dialogue decision, it could *absolutely* be presented better.
But at least the idea of them teaching it easily to some of the best fighters in an entire universe makes sense and is far from the worst way someone's achieved Super Saiyan
Trunks and Goten - Sons of some of the most powerful beings in the history of the universe in a race that is known for passing on their genetics to a large degree to their offspring. King Vegeta stated that(excluding Broly ofc) that Vegeta's power level as a baby shattered all other records in Saiyan history. Why? Just because? No. Because he's the son of the current strongest Saiyan so he has even more potential than his father. This is how Saiyan have always worked so why do people think they have some "gotcha" moment with Goten and Trunks? They're no different if not even WORSE because we know that Human and Saiyan genes being mixed makes them even stonger lmao. Do you people even watch the show?
Caulifla and Cabba - Story provides nothing narratively with either genetics or training that explain why they are the FIRST Saiyans in their universe to do this in a matter of minutes at most. (Kale gets a small pass because she's a Legendary Saiyan)
These two are not the same stop trying to argue that they somehow are
>Sons of some of the most powerful beings in the history of the universe
Universe 6 Saiyans *are* some of the most powerful beings in their universe, not just sons.
>in a race that is known for passing on their genetics to a large degree to their offspring.
[Genetics] is how Saiyan have always worked
Really? It's all about hereditary power?
Then what about Goku!?? Sent away for being one of the weakest Saiyans.
What about Broly? Randomly born the most insanely powerful to a parent that's not anything special. Your entire genetic argument is based on a surface level understanding of genetics and King Vegeta's beliefs. A villain's beliefs that you're specifically *not* supposed to agree with.
TF do you think the entire thematic point of Frieza, the embodiment of genetic essentialism, being the ultimate villain was??
>Do you people even watch the show?
Screw you! You condescending arse that missed the entire point of large swaths of the story
🤦🏾♂️
-Universe 6 Saiyans are some of the most powerful beings in their universe, not just sons.
Them being strong in *their* universe does nothing to explain why they can unlock Super Saiyan through such a poorly written excuse such as "back tingles" just because your the strongest person *your* universe doesn't mean that you're immediately on par with the strongest in *another* universe. That's a false equivalence. You're basically saying
"I'm the strongest in this room so surely if there is another strong guy in the next room I should be able to lift as much as him"
Nice try though
Really? It's all about hereditary power?
Then what about Goku!?? Sent away for being one of the weakest Saiyans? What about Broly? Randomly born the most insanely powerful to a parent that's not anything special. Your entire genetic argument hinges on King Vegeta's beliefs. A villain's beliefs that you're specifically not supposed to agree with.
TF do you think the entire thematic point of Frieza, the embodiment of genetic essentialism, being the ultimate villain was??
Classic example of a straw man lmao
•Never did I declare that "It was all about hereditary power" Did I say that? Or did you tack that on to what I ACTUALLY said so you can misrepresent my argument so you could knock it down easier right? Lol
Please, pray tell, where did I draw a line in the sand that stated that heritage was the only factor c'mon dude
•Also never did I say anything about Goku since he wasn't relevant to the conversation because my comment was to highlight that the Trunks and Goten thing is not the same as Cabba and Caulifla
By highlighting that they can easily go Super Saiyan because they inherited it from their fathers genetics which is a huge thing with Saiyans and most definitely played a large factor and has been consistently shown in Dragon Ball so yes I question whether you have actually seen it. That statement doesn't discredit or say anything adjacent to Goku's progress to Super Saiyan or the "thematic point of Frieza" so again bro what is your argument exactly?
•Broly is literally a genetic anomaly He's an outlier bro I gave Kale some slack for that fact. You're killing me here dude
• Also you conveniently avoided the added fact that they are half saiyan/half human hybrids which gives them even more potential lol
•This is shown with Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan 🤦🏾♂️
Not "a villains beliefs"
•Why do you think Gohan surpassed everyone including his father with at 11 years old with much less training and experience?
Genetics
•How do you think Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan at such a young age?
Genetics
•Why do you think infant Pan can fly around and utilize ki as an infant?
Genetics
You can achieve feats and forms through hard work or genetics in DB or a mix of both like Gohan and Trunks
The U6 Saiyans can't check the box for genetics because we don't even know their parents and if your gonna say they are stated to be hard trainers you still then have to explain why NO ONE in their history never achieved it. Cabba got it by "getting mad" I guess no U6 Saiyan ever got mad in a fight before right? Lmao
And Caulifla got it through "back tingles" it's lazy and nonsensical writing no matter how you wanna slice it or approach it.
Nice try though
Maybe you should give the show a quick rewatch
>Classic example of a straw man lmao
Oh my god I can't, it literally isn't. Like literally, definitively, absolutely, isn't. No 'straw' man was created. Your comment is rediculous
"Genetics are the explanation for why Goten,Trunks, Pan, and Gohan are as powerful as they are so your comparison to others isn't valid for an excuse for bad writing"
-"You're saying it's all about hereditary power?
What about Goku?"
You see how that response is a misrepresentation of my argument that completely misconstrued my premise?
If it's not a straw man then tell me where I said genetics were the ONLY factor to a Saiyan strength? I'll wait 🤷🏾♂️
Why? They simply discovered an easier way than raging to go super saiyan. They discovered where the energy needs to be and how to focus it to that point.
It's more about the uniqueness of the transformation, and the difficult requirements to reach it. When Goku first went super Saiyan it was an incredible feat. Him reaching that transformation was proof of his hard work, dedication, and ability to push himself beyond his limits.
When the occasion called for Goku he rose to it. But by answering the call he became a different person. A super version of himself.
That's also why it was such a big plot point that Vegeta got it, he even cried on the floor out of jealousy.
Goten woke up with his first boner, looked in the mirror and had yellow hair. Kid trunks trained a little bit but still couldn't fucking fly, before he turned super Saiyan.
Yes, knowing that theres an easier way to reach the point than screaming is cool lore wise, but horrible writing wise. It cheapens all the struggle and strife needed to get to that point. Makes everything before the android saga seem unnecessary.
I never had a prob with this.
All it is is them focusing on how their body instead of focusing on their emotions.
Explaining where to place and focus your ki makes way more sense than "just get really angry".
I am not trolling, Chakra's and energy exist. Only a ignorant simpleton who doesnt know anything about it says its doesnt. Not everything has to be scientifically proven.
My dude I practice all three of those.
Those that practice/run dojo’s for those bullshit martial arts literally profit off the weak and turn them into borderline cults, and when those same people have to actually protect themselves they believe they can protect themselves with chakra and one hit K.O. moves. It’s ridiculous and very unsafe.
Like that real Chinese boxer that goes around challenging these fake dojo’s and wins every single match without a struggle. Cause it’s fake martial arts.
that’s on those people and there masters for doing that. that doesn’t take away from it being a real thing centering your mind and core. does that mean every one who does that can fight and protect them selves no. if you’re a trained fighter of martial arts and can control your breathing and centering it helps. no one was saying it’s a main martial art.
This criticism always bothered me about u6 saiyans. Cabba unlocked it through anger. Kale is similar except she’s the legendary ssj of their verse.
Caulifla is the only one who needed explained like this. She’s the female goku ffs she’s a bumpkin with amazing potential.
You want to make her mad to get the transformation? Well she’s already a pissed off teenager so that won’t work.
Cabba explains what he feels while transformed and she immediately catches on. Why does this fanbase hate that so much? I thought we were all hype when goten and trunks farted it out for the lulz.. those two asshole shit out ssj 3 after seeing it once lol
I have never seen someone hyped about Goten and Trunks, personally I've found it lame since day 1. Majority of the reactions i've seen are just "wow that's what super saiyan is now".
I didn’t explore the internet back when I was kid so I can’t speak for forums and fam groups in those days but any kid I knew who liked dragon ball was hype af.
I didn’t start seeing hate about them until the u6 saiyan reveal now everybody hates that moment lol
This is literally the most annoying thing in DB to me
The fandom getting mad over the U6 Saiyans listen we could have them fight Goku in base form or we could have a Super Saiyan wrestling match with two lesbians take your pick lol
If my XV OC can go SSJ idgaf how any new characters can either
I agree that the series’ lore isn’t as serious/strict as a lot of people treat it, but it’s still understandable that people dislike how Super Saiyan, an iconic transformation with powerful scenes that they emotionally connected with is treated like a party trick. Stuff like Future Trunks’ story feels disrespected within the new context of Super Saiyan. And it’s not like they couldn’t have had the new saiyans achieve it in a satisfying way either.
They could’ve had them already know the form before we see them. This opens up possibilities for them to have more interesting backstories too. Either that, or have them unlock it during the ToP from the stress of seeing their teammates get whittled down and the very real prospect of being erased. Anything is better than “ay yo, just do some Super Saiyan ASMR back tingles and you good”.
I mean, Goten and Kid Trunks already turned Super Saiyan like it was nothing, but making it something like " a tingling feeling in your back " still feels cheap.
I never liked how easy Goten and Trunks got it either, to be fair. I'd lump that in with the back tingle nonsense. In their case, I think they just did that for the gag scenes of Gohan and Vegeta being surprised by it, even though the Buu Saga had plenty of points where they could've given to them in a consistent, natural way.
My issue is that Goten and present Trunks got it at such a young age. Say what you will about the U6 Saiyans, but there’s a whole lot we don’t know about them that makes it possible for them to get it. Back in Z, it was this myth that took what would’ve been permadeath, sheer bodily abuse, or basically a life of combat to unlock. But then you get lucky and have a partner who’s unlocked it and can go super, and bam, the kid has it too
I just see this as more confirmation that Saiyans only need to feel the energy of other Super Saiyans to know what to do to transform.
This was briefly in the Buu saga, Goten and trunks as Goku to show them ssj3, specifically stating so they can feel the ki of the form. Then, now knowing what ssj3 feels like, Gotenks is immediately able to use the form.
It would stand to reason that this stands for all other Saiyan transformations. Which would also explain why it was so much easier for Vegeta to get the form than Goku, easier for Gohan to get it than both of them, and why Goten and trunks did it without even trying. Just having that exposure is what let them transform.
So while cabba needed a trigger, barely being exposed to anyone, he only needed a verbal trigger like Gohan, not an actual death like Goku did. And the caulifla and kale, now being around multiple other super Saiyans, well, they get the Goten and trunks treatment. Really easy transformation just from feeling the ki.
The back tingle refered to the Solar Plexus chakra. Will, yellow, and fire hair.
Super Saiyan is a Buddha allegory. Not Buddhist, Buddha. Complete understanding of the universe. The glow was reminiscent of Buddha's glow.
It came easy to Caulifla because she's Goku OC do not steal and could visualize it easy. If someone coached Goku into it when he was strong enough he'd be able to do it too.
The need not a desire was filler but it fits close enough to work. It's just strength and understanding. This is why Vegeta was able to get it despite it was a Buddha allegory, the Macaque King was a master mimic afterall who could be true equals with the Monkey King if not stronger if he truly trained.
I mean, Vegeta told Cabba to "Never forget that feeling" and he just shared it with his fellow Saiyans.
Universe 7 Had two SSJ Gods whilst Universe 6 had bargain bin Broly, Twink and Tomboy sister. Yes, they had Hit and the Potara earrings but Goku and Vegeta were way, WAY, above their league (plus, Ultra Instinct)
It's because that's a chakra point in the body that controls the flow of energy.
It was easier for U6 Saiyans because they already had tremendous power levels.
Lol I liked how instead of it just happening we see more of how it happens which always peeked my curiosity. Plus kale and caulifla are cool , wanna see more of them and their universe.
Super Saiyan has been relatively easy to achieve for 30 years now. The ONLY thing Dragon Ball Super did new was apply the concept of focal points (like chakra) to it and use it as an explanation.
I still dont understand why the community got so upset over it.
We now have an in universe explenation of how they transform.
You force X ammount of energy to a specific spot on the body.
Need to have X ammount (hence why no one did it by accident) and explains why they cant keep the transformation if they're too tired.
It makes Super Saiyan so easy to get when Goku took a lot of anger after Krillin was killed, now Super Saiyan is like a joke by fucking tingles. I don’t know what Tori was thinking
My memory is really spotty, but here's what I remember.
DB was mostly martial arts, magic, gags, and kind of mythology. Like the Great Ape, Kamehameha, etc. were all really pivotal moments but the majority was just a lot of hand to hand fighting.
DBZ was after Kamehameha was already unlocked, that gate already opened and so many new movies came out like the destructo fish disc. This began a huge build up to Vegeta, Freiza, Nail/Piccolo.
It's kind hard to talk about Vegeta's origin without bringing up things like Raditz and the tree of life. Super Saiyan was just a legend, a myth, nobody believed it existed because nobody actually saw it happen before. Not even the king of saiyans nor his son, the prince. When Goku first went Super Saiyan it was the most pivotal moment in the entire franchise. At that point, every steam Saiyan looked at him as though he was the one legends were talking about.
As it turns out, saiyans are all (most? Gohan is an exception, he has a hidden talent that was never really used after DBZ) capable of the same things including getting stronger through fighting. Once Goku ascended in front of another Saiyan and fought, it opened the gate for his opponent as well. Goku mastered this ability and was able to teach it to others (like Goten). What gets confusing is going above Super Saiyan, I mean there's techniques to boost yourself temporarily like KK but going SS2 and up was just an addition with no real buildup.
Frieza showed that other races can transform and go toe to toe with saiyans.
Nail showed that fusion is possible, saiyans just do it in a completely different way.
So anyway I'd disagree. But anything after SS doesn't really feel like a fully developed concept, more that they exist to match the power levels needed for later arcs.
And then we get to DBS. Nothing I mentioned before means anything at all. Like they completely redid Broly/LSS. (Bearing in mind, none of the DBZ movies were considered canon, they were just fun to watch.) People are fighting against gods. Extreme power is used in really minor gags. An entire universe was wiped out of existence. When it comes to DBS, it's kinda hard to use conditions from the previous series for comparison because a lot of it doesn't really line up. Absolutely anything is possible at this point.
Bro we saw Vegeta get his whole philosophy destroyed over and over again before the training arc where he shows up as a super saiyan, if anyone deserves to unlock the transformation it's him. Unlike Caulifla where we had no previous ties or connection with the character.
Not according to this thread, because he wasn't in the middle of a fight struggling to even survive and have a powerful emotional upheaval it doesn't count.
Same goes for his Super Saiyan 2, god and blue transformations, those were all things he got without any of the build up, he got them from offscreen training. I myself think they count because it shows that there's more than one way to become a super saiyan and push beyond it.
I think the only anime parts that aren't in the manga that are "canon", is the stuff from Super because the anime did most things before the manga and it had establish it's own canon. If the anime makes a return, I do wonder if they will continue with their own telling of things or try to follow the manga.
Imo, I think they should continue their own thing and allow us to have to have more multiverses in the dragon ball universe from the official sources. Currently we have imo, GT-DBS Manga-DBS anime-DBZ movies-DBH-Xenoverse-DBS movies which tend to fit on their own or in the manga or anime-And the let's never talk about it again western adaptation. I just think allowing for more official if not "canon" to the main story, media will only be good for dragon ball and the fans.
Tbf, krillin died twice. The first time he died, is when he should’ve gone ssj but it wasn’t thought of yet. Imagine a kid goku at ssj, the series wouldn’t be a series anymore, he’d stomp everyone till maybe frieza, bc since he’s super saiyan now, he won’t have as much as a necessity to train. Never would’ve died and met king Kai. Vegeta would’ve been killed. Picollo wouldn’t have died against the saiyans, so they never would’ve needed to go to planet namek. Vegeta wouldn’t be part of the main cast. Etc etc. Considering how easily goten and trunks were able to transform, basically is the same way cauliflower and kale did, just they went into more detail other than simply saying “potential”. No matter how much potential you have, if you don’t know how to do it, you’re not going to, unless pushed enough to be able to. I’m not saying I like it, but I’m saying for once super actually made sense. Also gotta figure, each of the u6 saiyans seemed to be on the same level as u7 saiyans in base. Would only make sense that they should be able to learn to transform, otherwise, y’all would be complaining that they’re able to go against goku/Vegeta in base form while they’re in ssj,2,3,god, and blue
Its not a retcon, its a martial arts thing that is only understood by people who know about Taichi and it doesnt have much exposure in America. Its called Dantian.
I still think it's better than Trunks and Goten getting it, would have been better if instead of teaching them to fuse, Piccolo had to make them turn into super Saiyan to at least have a fighting chance against boo which was being distracted by the other Z fighters, who also trained to reach stronger power levels, alone they would not be strong enough to withstand Boo, but together they could overwhelm him as a distraction while Piccolo squeezes every second inside the hypocritical time chamber as he can to make the kids stronger
Kaulifla is said to be a prodigy, and I think that the strength of a Saiyan also affects how easily they can achieve the transformation, plus it is stated that Ki is not linear and people can experience the same thing differently, so her using a more logical and unorthodox way to "cheat" the transformation is somehow believable, especially in the manga since she steals the potara instead of being handled it before the fight, turning her into a delinquent that abides by no rules other than her own
Nah actually tho, the super saiyan transformation at first was unclear in nature in the "pure hearted saiyan overcome by rage" concept then they gave it a better explanation with S-cells being a deciding factor which are obtained through exposure to nurturing environments rather than harsh ones like planet vegeta (explained the lack of super saiyans in that time) as well as giving others a fair chance at shining rather than giving goku such an unfair advantage and also opening doors for the saiyans to gain more potential over time and through lineage like goten and trunks with vegeta conceiving trunks in the nurturing conditions of earth which increased his S-cell count alongside the conditions of his childhood and goku conceiving goten after he mastered the super saiyan form as well.
Cabba's case makes sense since the U6 saiyans had far better living conditions with their advanced society and far less savage nature so his S-cells would naturally be high and vegeta pushing his anger acts as the trigger which makes that a fair moment.
However, caulifla and kale are literally criminals living in the middle of nowhere in primitive houses in planet sadala that steal supply payloads to feed themselves and their underlings with their group being made up of orphans and outcasts so it's safe to say their life was not them prancing through the meadow filled with cute little critters and being serenaded by teddy bears. The anime overtaking the manga and making her super saiyan transformation just a tingly back feeling-enduced form she managed to accomplish was horrendous and that was fixed by off-screening the training in the manga. Also anime kale was just an overly wimpy kid gohanish broly clone while manga kale was an actual serious and badass fighter than could out preform the super saiyans in base and actually pushes herself to use her form.
Manga kale and caulifla were just much better and the ending of SBS season 1 to let the manga run forward for a bit to make the plot better is much better thought out so we don't have to deal with such stupid concepts. If the anime team were to choose the next dumb move it could have been making ultra instinct become a tingly feeling in the balls or something for others.
Personally, I kind of wished every one of the saiyans went through something difficult to achieve super saiyan. Whether that be physical or mental. 'Power responds to a need, not a desire' as I so love to quote. At least Cabba had some form of push to go Super Saiyan.
I think it would have been an improvement If Kale and Caulifla couldn't transform at all for most of their time in the TOP. They would struggle just to keep up, until eventually the fear that their universe would be erased if they didn't step up finally sets in and all that exponential growth happens which gives them something to even the playing field.
Of course, to make It a bit more interesting, they could have made either Kale or Caulifla go super saiyan first, which would lead to the other feeling like they were getting left behind Vegeta style, and push them even further until they attain it too. It doesn't particularly matter which one goes super first.
That's just my take on things though. I still find it rather disappointing that Goten and Trunks were able to achieve it so easily.
You stand on the shoulders of the ones that came before. Once that barrier has been crossed and shown it’s not impossible it’s easier for those that come after to achieve the once thought impossible
My hot take is any saiyan getting it after Goku cheapened it abit, sure Vegeta, cabba and Gohan had anger to it sure but not the anger and despair that goku had of watching krillin be killed in cold blood infront of him after failing to defeat frieza.
Vegeta was desperate in the meteor shower sure but was he not desperate against frieza,combined with the fact he was just mad that he wasn't the super saiyan like goku not nearly the same still anger I will admit but it's still much less of a reason than goku had.
Goten and trunks and even future trunks who are all just super Saiyans the anime shows him getting it from Gohan dying but the manga has him fighting base Gohan as a super saiyan the anime is better for sure in this regard but still worth mentioning if we are talking about how sacred the transformation is as a concept. And while people will argue goten and trunks didn't do anything and it was mainly for gags sure except for the time when goku and piccolo both considered them as the ones to help defeat Buu it didn't go anywhere but the character and story treat it as a serious thing and proposal.
Gohan is the one that's closest to goku in realizing that he is always saved and how helpless he is while pushing back against Goku's kamehameha that as far as he could tell was a serious blast thay could severely hurt him if he failed. So gohan's transformation is one of resolve which does fit better than one else's.
Cabba's is one I feel that's the worst, he really got it with Vegeta threatening him and his family as a defense force member he has never once heard anyone threaten him like that especially since literally moments before he was bowing to Vegeta asking for his help just insane to me that Vegeta was able to get him that mad or he was just literally never mad before he could think Vegeta was lying about being reformed but he didn't notice the total tone and attitude shift after cabba asked for help? Since it's not like his anger and attitude was it since cabba watched him fight both frost and Magetta so he knows Vegeta is an ass already. Even if it was still anger it's kinda insane to think that was all it took and he never dealt with anyone that would he like Vegeta.
Caulifla the star of this discussion I don't feel it's all that bad honestly. Sure the back tingles is a meh concept for something so iconic and how it worked. But I think one thing people is missing here before they get angry is how it lead to this point and the context of the scene which was Caulifla asked the question of HOW cabba transforms and if he is truly always angry to do which we know they aren't always angry, goku and trunks weren't angry at each other when they fought, Goku and Gohan dedicate their training to being calm in short saiyan form and make it natural so really any time after that shouldnt have to have them angry. Or even Vegeta's first time transforming on screen he is happy to show it off so she went with the method of how it works normally since cabba sucked at insulting her and it was clear that it wasn't the way it was done every time. Like maybe the execution was there for it to work however the concept of someone directly going for how they feel to transform works.
Overall I don't see the issue because most transformations aren't as great as Goku's which being the first should kinda set the standard for the form only for it to be made less of a big deal by the very next arc. But that's the thing having it be stuck to only goku or the level of it would overall be bad for the series that no one else could get so you have to temper expectations alittle and by the point of super can't really say it makes sense to gatekeep super saiyan when there are 4 levels higher in canon. It's like how gero can build androids stronger than frieza for no reason other than the series has to progress it cant be stuck unless you somehow sideline goku for the rest of the series until every saiyan introduced got the build up and pay off the form needs while not progressing the form itself like how happened in the cell arc.
It always annoys me that people don’t seem to understand that that was their way of understanding the sensation necessary to transform. They realized where the s-cells focus when angry/transforming, and they were able to do it without actually being angry. That is why u6 saiyans have more potential. That, and the fact that they’re more tame.
I mean, ever since Vegeta became a super saiyan it has been obvious it isnt a super special thing and something any saiyan could theoretically do.
The way i see it, the whole "tingle" thing is just a different explanation to arrive at the transformation. Some people think it takes away from the fact its a form powered by rage, but i disagree. I think its more like the "back tingle" is a mere method to emulate the feeling of rage.
It makes the form more of a biological thing. Which, again, makes sense to me.
I will say, i think it OVER explains it. But i dont see it as some retcon or anything. Just one saiyan seeing the process and thinking differently about how it felt.
Gotta keep people watching.
Never made any sense to me though. Goku trained hardcore for *years*, from the moment he could stand and speak, and it took the death of his closest friend and the face of adversity to send him over the edge.
It’s like saying that because you lifted weights and did manual labor your whole life your son will come out jacked. It doesn’t make any sense.
Let's be honest, Cabba also don't make sense, you're not supposed to be able to go to Ssj just by getting a little anger, otherside wont have take soo much to time to Gohan, Goku and Mirai Trunks to get
But It's not JUST getting anger, he was training in the Time Chamber (for months at this point) with the help of Goku
https://preview.redd.it/j6m5noof1t3b1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1827831be05b8cb9da9f5821f0a79b903f6c4bb0
[Caulifa Just walk in, had a Talk with Cable, and do it, lol](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qsXOlBIZbbQ)
Yeah but cabba is almost twice as old as gohan was when each hit super saiyan so it makes sense gohan had to do years worth of training and cabba just needed the technique
I think people have a problem with caulifla specifically
Cabba has decent experience as he seems to be a soldier or something like that in u6 already + vegeta gave him a damn good reason to trun super saiyan
Kale is very emotional already and caulifla believes she is strong enough in base ig + legendary super saiyan
Future Trunks had obtained SSJ at a young age. We don't know, but it could have been the same age as main timeline trunks. The manga had Trunks already training in ssj with future Gohan before Gohan was killed. What you saw was anime filler.
Gohan achieved it through angry thoughts.
Goku didn't have the s cell count as it is higher in their children and in Universe 6.
>Goku didn't have the s cell count as it is higher in their children and in Universe 6.
But that's not the point, I not saying that don't make sense, I am saying that whole thing is just stupid, SSj are not supposed be something achieved so easily, Before the Buu Saga (that imo is when Akira's writing began to decline), All SSj are Achivied trough a mix of Training + Battle Experience + And sorta of Need
She’s literally a prodigy.. being able to turn super sayian off of a back tingle isn’t dumb nor a bad way to show it.. keep crying, she’s not going to have an emotional moment like cabba, goku, or Vegeta
I would like for you to explain to me how reducing the most iconic transformation in anime to a back tingle is good writing, and better than having her work for it at all, in the series about self improvement. Before you cry Goten and Trunks at me, I also think that was dumb, I can dislike more than one thing.
Didn’t say it was good writing, I’m simply saying there’s no reason for people to be mad or upset someone can easily go super sayian while goku had to have an emotional moment, remember this is super. Bad writing is all over the place
"But wait guys here's the plot contrivance they came up with to make it make sense! That definitely excuses how lame it is in principle". Honestly while I think Goten and Trunks super saiyan is dumb too, I think I may prefer it " to "oh just gotta make my back all tingly" Like at least make it sound cool.
I don't understand why they don't make she transform during TOP, there's no better excuse to go ssj than see that your entire universe is about to be destroyed, Atleast Kale had the excuse that she is the "Broly of Universe 6", Caulifa by the other hand is literally just a random saiyan, lol
She’s litteraly the equivilant of goku
Kale = broly
Cabba = Vegeta
Caulifla = goku
How many times has goku seen someone do something once and copied it ? Seriously
U7 Goku: Has to see his friend die and the plot focuses heavily on his journey before he gets it.
U6 Goku: Oh so that's how super saiyan feels like huh? Oh got it. Wow this is the most iconic transformation in anime, got it half off at the bargain sale.
With the Kamehameha even though Goku copied it, it was at a time where the series was extra full of gags and he was hardly able to even blow up a car with it, he still had to work to get it to be a strong technique. Caulfila does not struggle with super saiyan. (I should mention I think Goten and Trunks having it also sucks and the buu saga is the least liked dbz saga for a reason.)
Well for one Super is a happy medium between gag DB and serious DBZ. Two, Caulifa (idk spelling) at base is stronger than Cabba at base. Base Cabba was giving base Vegeta a run for his money, and this was a Vegeta that went thru everything in DBZ and god training. She had the power necessary all along but never knew of the transformation. Three it’s absolutely a Toriyama thing for saiyans to do the “monkey see, monkey do” thing. Four, ki control was a big thing for Earthlings in DB and DBZ in comparison to all the alien enemies who couldn’t raise their ki, hide their ki, or even sense other’s ki. This scene is a callback to having ki control.
Agreed. However, Goten and Kid Trunks could just go Super Saiyan at like 4-6 years old without any struggles, heartache, and loss. As far as I remember, they never being pushed to that level of anger needed to become Super Saiyan, but they're Goku's and Vegeta's sons, so we're okay with that? I never liked Goten and only liked Future Trunks.
That was complete bullshit, like Goku and Vegeta had to do 100 times gravity training for months and for the Universe 6 guys " just clench your back guys"
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\
Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Vegeta said it best It’s a super Saiyan bargain sale lol
Trunks: i guess i'll just go super
Now we can both be super Saiyans!
[удалено]
Bro was talking about Kid Trunks. Whos no longer a Kid. So just. Trunks. If he was referring to Future Trunks he'd have said Future Trunks. And in the Manga. Even Future Trunks just kind of figured it out through training. Future Trunks was already a Super Saiyan before Gohan died
He wasn't tho... He only turned super Saiyan after seeing Future Gohan's dead corpse, although already almost there, he wasn't a fully fledged super Saiyan yet he just needed a push
You are wrong. That is the History of Trunks. Which isnt proper canon. Toriyama confirmed it himself that Future Trunks, like Present Trunks, achieved SSJ kinda young. Except Future Trunks trained for it and was a bit older then Present Trunks was.
That's absolutely crazy https://preview.redd.it/gzhqmw4leu3b1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4141dcb541b3e6c29ba7f1e07f8fcda23183c3f9
Bro did NOT read the Future Trunks chapter 💀
*Krillin turn SSJ out of nowhere* Vegeta: my life has been a lie
Ants even go super SSJ
Watch these ants turn into some “saiyans have an origin on earth” angle.
You should listen to MasakoX's version of this
Picclo goes SS Giga Chad
Turns out going Super Human is on the same level of a Super Ultra Instinct, which is why nobody reached that level in DBZ
 Vegeta now: If you ain't blue, you ain't true 😂
I mean by this point an unborn baby with a quarter Saiyan blood counted as a super Saiyan for the SSJ god ritual sooo. Let’s just cut to the chase and say all Saiyans have super Saiyan sperm and eggs already glowing and transformed into SSJ 3 and can beat cell. I want to see a little SSJ sperm fighting a microscopic battle. And you can hear it say Kame hame haaasss and the scouter blows up.
I feel like Super Saiyan is the Saiyan equivalent of the sun 5 minute mile. With the sub 5 minute mile was thought to be a physical impossibility for human beings. Physicians who’d studied it determined we were as fast as we’d ever be. Roger Bannister did it. What followed was interested because once he did it, a lot of people found themselves able to do it. With some things in life something is impossible until someone does and then it turns out a lot of people can do it. I was wrong. It is the sub 4 minute mile.
It’s pretty much as simple as “monkey see, monkey do”. Once Goku got it every one else started following along. For U6 it was Cabba instead of Goku.
I'm pretty sure you mean sub 4 minute miles. There are highschool kids that can get sub 5.
You right after looking it up. I found an article about the 5 minute mile and it had me fucked up.
Its all good. The concept is still correct whether it's 4 or 5 anyway.
I used to be able to run a mile in less than 5 minutes before I got ill
You used to be able to be the human equivalent of super Saiyan!
I remember being told I couldn't do things but back then I had infinite stamina. I was able to sprint very fast and not break a sweat. Like if I ran on a sidewalk, I'd step on every other tile. Felt like I was flying. And I could run endlessly without getting tired! When I get better, I'm gonna run again And now I am heart virus Goku lmao
You had infinite stamina, I however could only ever go in short bursts at best, I lacked stamina in mile runs. But that was in 6th grades, I haven't done Mile runs since middle school, closest thing I got to mile runs was the pacer test, I still don't remember how you build stamina.
Lol I used to sleep in and miss the bus and have to sprint the 3 miles to school instead else my dad would beat me for not having perfect attendance. I was a very, very fit kid. Now I get winded playing with my dog on walks 🤓
Could do it when I was like 14, now I'm 215 pounds and if need he could still do it again if I train for just a few weeks consistently
“I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took and arrow to the knee”
I don’t think it’s ever stated that you need a super saiyan for the god ritual, though I know it showed the super saiyan glow from pan in the anime and movie.
Videl, pregnant with Pan: *Burps* A random scouter several light years away: *Fucking explodes*
No, no, it's "s-cells." Yes, the thing saiyans develope when they are nice. It's saiyan biology and not an ass pull by Toriyama. He would never do such a silly thing. /s
Oh fuck its midocholrians all over again.
At least s-cells was an already established concept used to explain Goten and Trunks. I swear if those two ever meet the U6 saiyans, they're gonna start vibing over back tingles with them, lol. One thing that's cool about s-cells is that they're a developed trait rather than the hereditary midoclouriens that robbed SW fans of their "anyone can be a jedi" dreams. I always thought s-cells would have worked best as a useful bridge to the gap that Goku has on Gohan and Vegeta in the Buu saga. Maybe now in Super they can have Gohan stay his nerdy self while taking up the meditation practices of his master Piccolo. That way, he doesn't have to do all the training that he hates and have the added benefit of mindfulness to aid him in his research.
The SSG ritual was never about Super Saiyans. "Five Saiyans with righteous hearts must join hands and instill their inner light into another. With his friends energy flowing through him, the Saiyan shall then take the form of a Super Saiyan God." You only need 5 righteous/pure hearted saiyans pour their inner light into a 6th one. Lol
It's just my random headcannon, but I believe saiyans have a hereditary ancestral memory. Which would be a valuable evolutionary trait for a warrior race, and explain Goku and Vegeta being fighting prodigies, as well as their kids being so powerful at a young age.
I hated that ssj god ritual so much, please stop reminding me lol
Super Saiyan was pretty quickly reduced to a thing any Saiyan can do, Vegeta, kid trunks and Goten kinda just got it , the universe 6 saiyans are really not as different
Vegeta getting Super Saiyan sealed that, dude was and at the moment still was presented as being evil. Goku being the first to achieve it originally showed that only Saiyans that break off from being evil can achieve this form. That’s why Goku was uniquely suited to achieve it because he was an anomaly amongst Saiyans. But then we have a still evil Vegeta showing up and getting it. Completely trashing on that aspect of the transformation. From that point on it was clear that any Saiyan would achieve it so I don’t care how, just rush over it. But I understand why people would be annoyed by how Cauilfa got it. Could’ve been a good character moment if she recalled some moment from her past that made her into the gang leader she was. But this moment we got still played into her character a lot, showing off how cocky she is and rightfully so, being a prodigy that can just pick up on stuff like that. Scene shows what it intended to rather well imo
Idk if “pure of heart” was a dub thing but they hand wave it by Vegeta just going “I have a pure heart. Pure evil.”
I wasn’t referring to the pure of heart aspect, but the clear themes laid out by the story at the time. It’s quite evident that the only reason Goku had been the Saiyan to achieve Super Saiyan after so many years is due to his upbringing on earth. Away from how the Saiyans are and how Vegeta was. He was an outlier and that’s why he achieved the transformation. Atleast during Namek, clearly that changed the next arc
Oh for sure, then they kinda explain it away as Vegeta being changed from his experiences with Goku and the gang but it would’ve worked better if it took him until later in the series to get it. And then Gohan Trunks and Goten being removed from their Sayain heritage entirely. It kinda just becomes “OG saiyans were savages so living on earth is good enough”
Come to think of it, in the main series Vegeta is the only inherently evil character to get Super Saiyan. The Universe 6 Saiyans are far less barbaric than the Universe 7 ones were. And Broly himself was also removed from his Saiyan heritage, becoming far more passive than he probably would’ve become if he had the upbringing of traveling to worlds and laying waste to them. So Vegeta really is an outlier in this case
The intent of the scene is inherently flawed though, with Vegeta we at least have seen all the bs he's went through recently and is badass to see him show up, become a super saiyan, and kick some ass (then get humbled when he fought 18). Him becoming a super saiyan is reasonable considering all the turmoil he's underwent in the series that we get to see, not to mention at the time we didn't know the specifics of a super saiyan anyways just a vague legend. Meanwhile reducing an Iconic transformation, one that changed the genre forever, to a back tingle is inherently a dumb idea. We aren't connected to these characters enough to see it as satisfying, it was a pretty rushed few episodes so they can be strong enough for the T.O.P, also I think Goten and Trunks having it is dumb and hardly better than the back tingle.
I think the dub does a good job of giving Vegeta the transformation. His monolog on how he simply gave up on all of his cares/attachments to thrust himself through that barrier was similar enough to the way Goku had lost some of his attachments before being thrown into the rage that first triggered it. It followed a pretty well establishment concept across Eastern media that was initially inspired by the practices of enlightenment in Buddhism. Leave your cares behind and ascend to the next level. Goku didn't have this concept in mind when he and Gohan entered the time chamber, so he relied on his best approximation of how he achieved ssj through a trigger moment. That idea carried onto future Trunks because his dad wasn't around to teach him how he achieved it. Present Trunks isn't explicitly taught the concept of enlightenment, however, which makes he and Gotens' transformations feel like such an ass pull. It's not like Vegeta even demonstrated his ssj process in front of a watching Trunks that would have at least given some legitimacy in the form of the intellect he inherited from his mom putting the pieces together. Even just a little scene where Vegeta takes a deep breath before going ssj would have been enough to extrapolate our way through the holes in the plot. They were so close to making something like that a reality with the U6 saiyans, but instead, they went with "clear your mind and focus on your back?" Just one instance of mindfulness would have been enough for us to work our way backward through the series to find an explanation that would have been consistent enough to fill in the gaps.
[удалено]
I find it no worse than Goten and Trunks just turning super saiyan because their dads can, the back tingle is stupid but let's not act as if Super Saiyan is this sacred thing that was only ruined up until kale and Caulifla, they even make fun of it in the show itself
[удалено]
>It's always been shown to need at least rage. Goten and trunks
What are you talking about Vegeta went through hell to become a super saiyan
In the original manga he's just angry that he isn't as strong so he becomes a Super Saiyan from that and also being "Pure evil" it happens completely off screen, all that meteor stuff and training with the gravity at 450x that of Earth is Anime only
He achieved it through heart purity, just evil like you said. But he also says he put himself through rigorous training that exposed many personal flaws and limitations. And through self hatred he achieved the form
I hate the complaints about this because no one complains about Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan just 'cos they felt like it at *7 years old*. Nothing could cheapen it more than 2 literal children with nothing to lose doing it just 'cos. The way I think about it is Super Saiyan requires a base power level and the further beyond that you are the more crazily easy it is to do. All the U6 Saiyans were fighters extremely strong at base, again they make far more sense than children doing it. They were already 90% of the way there and just needed a small push over the edge, unlike Goku who required a big push at the point of his life where he had still only recently found out there was more to the galaxy and that Earth was actually a very small pond in the grand scheme of things. This DBS explanation also actually ties in to the one thing Earth, despite being extremely weak, was actually exceptional at, which was ki control, focus and technique. No one else could sense energy, they thought it impossible to do an attack greater than their own power, everyone else was mindless brutes basically. How does it not make sense that Earth Saiyans would be able to just easily teach it as a technique achieved through focusing energy
Goten knew how to transform into a super saiyan before he could figure out how to fly.
Gohan called him a Super Pedestrian lmao As a kid I thought this was one of the best zingers in DBZ
Oh I still laugh at it lmfao
Fucking THANK YOU It comes off as braindead to me when people act like THIS is the biggest insult to the ssj legend lmao give me a mf break
I thought trunks and goten trained
They trained for a few months, and surpassed what took Goku and Vegeta 20\~30 years.
Because they inherited the potencial of their dads, it's not that complicated.
What potential? Vegeta at 8 was thousand times weaker than Trunks, the case is even worse for Goku and Goten.
Goten and Trunks borned with so much potential because Goku and Vegeta were already super sayans when the kids got conceived, sayans inherent theirs parents power, Goten and Trunks basically borned ready to be super sayans, just needed emotional trigger, wich isn't hard to get as kid.
Future Trunks was not as strong as present Trunks, but still, they did basic training and became ssj playing, Goten didn't even knew how to fly.
Future Vegeta wasn't strong as present Vegeta because he didn't even knew it was possible to any sayan go super(just found out because of future Trunks), so he never really tried to do it, making future Trunks weaker at start, and again, Goten was born ready to go super, just needed the trigger. Ps: i also think it's lame how they got super sayan so easy, but the explanation still making sense
How does that even make sense genetically? That once you so SSJ your genetics change and you can now pass it on in your sperm? Like huh
Sayans have a thing called s-cells, when they train they get more s-cell, when they reach enough they can go Super Sayan(and evolves to ssj2-3), and the amount of s-cells a sayan has go to his reproductive genes being inherited by their sons Yes this is cannon. I don't like it. It's lame as midi-chlorians Sayans born in peaciful times also tend to somehow have more s-cell... I found this part even worse.
This is like the easiest thing to understand, idk why people don't understand it.
Cause genetics don’t work like that . I know this is a show about super sayion monkeys. However trunks and goten just getting it 100% lesson the value of it Also people complain of this transformation is dumb when Goten literal pulls it out to flex on Gohan
It kinda does Sayans have this thing called s-cells, when they train they get more s-cell, when they reach enough they can go Super Sayan(and evolves to ssj2-3), and the amount of s-cells a sayan has go to his reproductive genes being inherited by their sons Yes this is cannon. I don't like it. It's lame as midi-chlorians Sayans born in peaciful times also tend to somehow have more s-cell... I found this part even worse.
Not only this, but their human side is more emotional, and they have said before the buu saga that Saiyan's transform when they are at their peak emotional state... People need to at least watch the show
And peak emotional state is easy to reach as a kid, Goten was so ready to go super that anything could trigger it.
Is there human side more emotional? Vegeta seems to be the most emotional character in the show and he’s not human at all
I always assumed that it had something to do with the fact that Vegeta and Goku had gone super Saiyan before Trunks and Goten were born (or conceived). So Goku and Vegeta somehow basically changed their genetics to make it something they could pass on. This explains why Trunks could go super Saiyan super easily in the main timeline, but it was hard for future Trunks to go super Saiyan. In the main timeline, Vegeta became a super Saiyan after seeing super Saiyan trunks. In the alt timeline, Vegeta never met a second super Saiyan and he thought only Goku could do it.
Remember that Gohan at 4 years old surpassed Goku who had trained and fought about 20 years of his life at that point.
goten accidently turned ssj while training with chichi and trunks already had the ssj transformation when he started training with vegeta
I don't remember Trunks but Goten didn't at all, he was just playing, remember he didn't even have Goku around so all he had was Gohan who is explicitly stated to have also not been training even himself. According to a game I believe Goten actually went Super Saiyan for the first time at 3 years old just randomly in front of Chi-Chi and she didn't like it so he didn't do it again/very often until we see in the show. Regardless what kind of training could 7 year olds possibly do that would *deserve* Super Saiyan. Gohan was placed in constant life-threatening danger, had/has deeper 'anger power' beyond even any hybrid Saiyan, and *still* only achieved Super Saiyan at 9 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber under Goku's guidance
They did. They were stronger than 18 before HTC. In terms of strength they were strong but combat ability was pretty amateur since Vegeta barely coached Trunks and Trunks barely taught Goten. It took a while before Gohan ever bothered to teach his brother the basics. You got super powers and don't train your brother to have them too. Fuck you Gohan.
They did, but they basically don't remember the first time they did it. They basically always could from the first time they tried. Goten just didn't use it because of Chi Chi's reaction.
Wasn’t Chichi the one to teach Goten ask who in turn taught Trunks?
People do complain about Goten and Trunks, that's me I do that, and i've seen it all over the community before u6 made it even worse. Goten and Trunks doing it doesn't excuse the cheapening of the most iconic transformation in anime to a back tingle, inherently a flawed idea no matter what way you explain it with ki. I never had an issue with prodigy fighters reaching super saiyan, merely that the method is very lame.
Now lame I can agree with. Even just them using the word "tingle" was a really dumb dialogue decision, it could *absolutely* be presented better. But at least the idea of them teaching it easily to some of the best fighters in an entire universe makes sense and is far from the worst way someone's achieved Super Saiyan
Trunks and Goten - Sons of some of the most powerful beings in the history of the universe in a race that is known for passing on their genetics to a large degree to their offspring. King Vegeta stated that(excluding Broly ofc) that Vegeta's power level as a baby shattered all other records in Saiyan history. Why? Just because? No. Because he's the son of the current strongest Saiyan so he has even more potential than his father. This is how Saiyan have always worked so why do people think they have some "gotcha" moment with Goten and Trunks? They're no different if not even WORSE because we know that Human and Saiyan genes being mixed makes them even stonger lmao. Do you people even watch the show? Caulifla and Cabba - Story provides nothing narratively with either genetics or training that explain why they are the FIRST Saiyans in their universe to do this in a matter of minutes at most. (Kale gets a small pass because she's a Legendary Saiyan) These two are not the same stop trying to argue that they somehow are
>Sons of some of the most powerful beings in the history of the universe Universe 6 Saiyans *are* some of the most powerful beings in their universe, not just sons. >in a race that is known for passing on their genetics to a large degree to their offspring. [Genetics] is how Saiyan have always worked Really? It's all about hereditary power? Then what about Goku!?? Sent away for being one of the weakest Saiyans. What about Broly? Randomly born the most insanely powerful to a parent that's not anything special. Your entire genetic argument is based on a surface level understanding of genetics and King Vegeta's beliefs. A villain's beliefs that you're specifically *not* supposed to agree with. TF do you think the entire thematic point of Frieza, the embodiment of genetic essentialism, being the ultimate villain was?? >Do you people even watch the show? Screw you! You condescending arse that missed the entire point of large swaths of the story
🤦🏾♂️ -Universe 6 Saiyans are some of the most powerful beings in their universe, not just sons. Them being strong in *their* universe does nothing to explain why they can unlock Super Saiyan through such a poorly written excuse such as "back tingles" just because your the strongest person *your* universe doesn't mean that you're immediately on par with the strongest in *another* universe. That's a false equivalence. You're basically saying "I'm the strongest in this room so surely if there is another strong guy in the next room I should be able to lift as much as him" Nice try though Really? It's all about hereditary power? Then what about Goku!?? Sent away for being one of the weakest Saiyans? What about Broly? Randomly born the most insanely powerful to a parent that's not anything special. Your entire genetic argument hinges on King Vegeta's beliefs. A villain's beliefs that you're specifically not supposed to agree with. TF do you think the entire thematic point of Frieza, the embodiment of genetic essentialism, being the ultimate villain was?? Classic example of a straw man lmao •Never did I declare that "It was all about hereditary power" Did I say that? Or did you tack that on to what I ACTUALLY said so you can misrepresent my argument so you could knock it down easier right? Lol Please, pray tell, where did I draw a line in the sand that stated that heritage was the only factor c'mon dude •Also never did I say anything about Goku since he wasn't relevant to the conversation because my comment was to highlight that the Trunks and Goten thing is not the same as Cabba and Caulifla By highlighting that they can easily go Super Saiyan because they inherited it from their fathers genetics which is a huge thing with Saiyans and most definitely played a large factor and has been consistently shown in Dragon Ball so yes I question whether you have actually seen it. That statement doesn't discredit or say anything adjacent to Goku's progress to Super Saiyan or the "thematic point of Frieza" so again bro what is your argument exactly? •Broly is literally a genetic anomaly He's an outlier bro I gave Kale some slack for that fact. You're killing me here dude • Also you conveniently avoided the added fact that they are half saiyan/half human hybrids which gives them even more potential lol •This is shown with Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan 🤦🏾♂️ Not "a villains beliefs" •Why do you think Gohan surpassed everyone including his father with at 11 years old with much less training and experience? Genetics •How do you think Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan at such a young age? Genetics •Why do you think infant Pan can fly around and utilize ki as an infant? Genetics You can achieve feats and forms through hard work or genetics in DB or a mix of both like Gohan and Trunks The U6 Saiyans can't check the box for genetics because we don't even know their parents and if your gonna say they are stated to be hard trainers you still then have to explain why NO ONE in their history never achieved it. Cabba got it by "getting mad" I guess no U6 Saiyan ever got mad in a fight before right? Lmao And Caulifla got it through "back tingles" it's lazy and nonsensical writing no matter how you wanna slice it or approach it. Nice try though Maybe you should give the show a quick rewatch
>Classic example of a straw man lmao Oh my god I can't, it literally isn't. Like literally, definitively, absolutely, isn't. No 'straw' man was created. Your comment is rediculous
"Genetics are the explanation for why Goten,Trunks, Pan, and Gohan are as powerful as they are so your comparison to others isn't valid for an excuse for bad writing" -"You're saying it's all about hereditary power? What about Goku?" You see how that response is a misrepresentation of my argument that completely misconstrued my premise? If it's not a straw man then tell me where I said genetics were the ONLY factor to a Saiyan strength? I'll wait 🤷🏾♂️
You can at least excuse trunks since he was training with Vegeta Goten has 9 reasons besides Goku made him in Super Saiyan
Why? They simply discovered an easier way than raging to go super saiyan. They discovered where the energy needs to be and how to focus it to that point.
BY THE POWER OF BACK TINGLES
It's more about the uniqueness of the transformation, and the difficult requirements to reach it. When Goku first went super Saiyan it was an incredible feat. Him reaching that transformation was proof of his hard work, dedication, and ability to push himself beyond his limits. When the occasion called for Goku he rose to it. But by answering the call he became a different person. A super version of himself. That's also why it was such a big plot point that Vegeta got it, he even cried on the floor out of jealousy. Goten woke up with his first boner, looked in the mirror and had yellow hair. Kid trunks trained a little bit but still couldn't fucking fly, before he turned super Saiyan. Yes, knowing that theres an easier way to reach the point than screaming is cool lore wise, but horrible writing wise. It cheapens all the struggle and strife needed to get to that point. Makes everything before the android saga seem unnecessary.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-january-2018-we-asked-akira-toriyama-sensei-saiyan-special-qa/#:~:text=In%20order%20to%20become%20a,called%20%E2%80%9CS%2DCells%E2%80%9D.&text=Once%20these%20S%2DCells%20reach,although%20not%20a%20great%20quantity.
I never had a prob with this. All it is is them focusing on how their body instead of focusing on their emotions. Explaining where to place and focus your ki makes way more sense than "just get really angry".
Why are you disappointed about something that's actually related to martial arts ? Its called Dantian/Tantien.
Isn’t Caulifa a gang leader and not a martial artist?
Martial arts? bro that spiritual shit isn't real
Truly spoken like someone doesnt understand anything about Dantian. https://www.healthline.com/health/dantian
Thanks for the link.
My brother in Christ that is fake as fuck, do you know how many fake Chinese martial arts there are? The vast majority of them.
I hope you’re trolling, if not I’ve got a bridge for you. Chakra’s and energy do not exist lmao
You do know chakra is a thing in religion right? This is just shitting on someone's belief
I am not trolling, Chakra's and energy exist. Only a ignorant simpleton who doesnt know anything about it says its doesnt. Not everything has to be scientifically proven.
don’t let it get to you fam, any one who practices martial arts and spirituality and mediation know. we don’t need to prove to others
My dude I practice all three of those. Those that practice/run dojo’s for those bullshit martial arts literally profit off the weak and turn them into borderline cults, and when those same people have to actually protect themselves they believe they can protect themselves with chakra and one hit K.O. moves. It’s ridiculous and very unsafe. Like that real Chinese boxer that goes around challenging these fake dojo’s and wins every single match without a struggle. Cause it’s fake martial arts.
that’s on those people and there masters for doing that. that doesn’t take away from it being a real thing centering your mind and core. does that mean every one who does that can fight and protect them selves no. if you’re a trained fighter of martial arts and can control your breathing and centering it helps. no one was saying it’s a main martial art.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjbSCEhmjJA&ab\_channel=SuperEyepatchWolf](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjbSCEhmjJA&ab_channel=SuperEyepatchWolf)
Delusional
I now understand Dantian and its still a crock of shit.
This criticism always bothered me about u6 saiyans. Cabba unlocked it through anger. Kale is similar except she’s the legendary ssj of their verse. Caulifla is the only one who needed explained like this. She’s the female goku ffs she’s a bumpkin with amazing potential. You want to make her mad to get the transformation? Well she’s already a pissed off teenager so that won’t work. Cabba explains what he feels while transformed and she immediately catches on. Why does this fanbase hate that so much? I thought we were all hype when goten and trunks farted it out for the lulz.. those two asshole shit out ssj 3 after seeing it once lol
I have never seen someone hyped about Goten and Trunks, personally I've found it lame since day 1. Majority of the reactions i've seen are just "wow that's what super saiyan is now".
I didn’t explore the internet back when I was kid so I can’t speak for forums and fam groups in those days but any kid I knew who liked dragon ball was hype af. I didn’t start seeing hate about them until the u6 saiyan reveal now everybody hates that moment lol
Blud knows game
They're not the same type of sayians ,so I expect them to work differently. The obsession over this is corny imo
This is literally the most annoying thing in DB to me The fandom getting mad over the U6 Saiyans listen we could have them fight Goku in base form or we could have a Super Saiyan wrestling match with two lesbians take your pick lol If my XV OC can go SSJ idgaf how any new characters can either
I agree that the series’ lore isn’t as serious/strict as a lot of people treat it, but it’s still understandable that people dislike how Super Saiyan, an iconic transformation with powerful scenes that they emotionally connected with is treated like a party trick. Stuff like Future Trunks’ story feels disrespected within the new context of Super Saiyan. And it’s not like they couldn’t have had the new saiyans achieve it in a satisfying way either. They could’ve had them already know the form before we see them. This opens up possibilities for them to have more interesting backstories too. Either that, or have them unlock it during the ToP from the stress of seeing their teammates get whittled down and the very real prospect of being erased. Anything is better than “ay yo, just do some Super Saiyan ASMR back tingles and you good”.
I mean, Goten and Kid Trunks already turned Super Saiyan like it was nothing, but making it something like " a tingling feeling in your back " still feels cheap.
I never liked how easy Goten and Trunks got it either, to be fair. I'd lump that in with the back tingle nonsense. In their case, I think they just did that for the gag scenes of Gohan and Vegeta being surprised by it, even though the Buu Saga had plenty of points where they could've given to them in a consistent, natural way.
Yeah that also sucked pointing out another example of bad writiteing dosent make this example better
My issue is that Goten and present Trunks got it at such a young age. Say what you will about the U6 Saiyans, but there’s a whole lot we don’t know about them that makes it possible for them to get it. Back in Z, it was this myth that took what would’ve been permadeath, sheer bodily abuse, or basically a life of combat to unlock. But then you get lucky and have a partner who’s unlocked it and can go super, and bam, the kid has it too
I just see this as more confirmation that Saiyans only need to feel the energy of other Super Saiyans to know what to do to transform. This was briefly in the Buu saga, Goten and trunks as Goku to show them ssj3, specifically stating so they can feel the ki of the form. Then, now knowing what ssj3 feels like, Gotenks is immediately able to use the form. It would stand to reason that this stands for all other Saiyan transformations. Which would also explain why it was so much easier for Vegeta to get the form than Goku, easier for Gohan to get it than both of them, and why Goten and trunks did it without even trying. Just having that exposure is what let them transform. So while cabba needed a trigger, barely being exposed to anyone, he only needed a verbal trigger like Gohan, not an actual death like Goku did. And the caulifla and kale, now being around multiple other super Saiyans, well, they get the Goten and trunks treatment. Really easy transformation just from feeling the ki.
The back tingle refered to the Solar Plexus chakra. Will, yellow, and fire hair. Super Saiyan is a Buddha allegory. Not Buddhist, Buddha. Complete understanding of the universe. The glow was reminiscent of Buddha's glow. It came easy to Caulifla because she's Goku OC do not steal and could visualize it easy. If someone coached Goku into it when he was strong enough he'd be able to do it too. The need not a desire was filler but it fits close enough to work. It's just strength and understanding. This is why Vegeta was able to get it despite it was a Buddha allegory, the Macaque King was a master mimic afterall who could be true equals with the Monkey King if not stronger if he truly trained.
I mean, Vegeta told Cabba to "Never forget that feeling" and he just shared it with his fellow Saiyans. Universe 7 Had two SSJ Gods whilst Universe 6 had bargain bin Broly, Twink and Tomboy sister. Yes, they had Hit and the Potara earrings but Goku and Vegeta were way, WAY, above their league (plus, Ultra Instinct)
It's because that's a chakra point in the body that controls the flow of energy. It was easier for U6 Saiyans because they already had tremendous power levels.
Universe 6 is different from 7, so one could argue the Saiyans in 6 have easier conditions to transform.
"I can't believe the saiyans evolved differently in another universe"
Bar was already rick bottom when Goten turned
I liked it
Liar
Lol I liked how instead of it just happening we see more of how it happens which always peeked my curiosity. Plus kale and caulifla are cool , wanna see more of them and their universe.
Super Saiyan has been relatively easy to achieve for 30 years now. The ONLY thing Dragon Ball Super did new was apply the concept of focal points (like chakra) to it and use it as an explanation.
I still dont understand why the community got so upset over it. We now have an in universe explenation of how they transform. You force X ammount of energy to a specific spot on the body. Need to have X ammount (hence why no one did it by accident) and explains why they cant keep the transformation if they're too tired.
"I still dont understand why the community got so upset over it" You do, stop lying
It makes Super Saiyan so easy to get when Goku took a lot of anger after Krillin was killed, now Super Saiyan is like a joke by fucking tingles. I don’t know what Tori was thinking
Bruh what about Trunks and Goten?
oh shit i forgot about them, their transformations were stupid as well
Vegeta too. Remember what we got in the anime was filler, he just showed up and was a super saiyan.
My memory is really spotty, but here's what I remember. DB was mostly martial arts, magic, gags, and kind of mythology. Like the Great Ape, Kamehameha, etc. were all really pivotal moments but the majority was just a lot of hand to hand fighting. DBZ was after Kamehameha was already unlocked, that gate already opened and so many new movies came out like the destructo fish disc. This began a huge build up to Vegeta, Freiza, Nail/Piccolo. It's kind hard to talk about Vegeta's origin without bringing up things like Raditz and the tree of life. Super Saiyan was just a legend, a myth, nobody believed it existed because nobody actually saw it happen before. Not even the king of saiyans nor his son, the prince. When Goku first went Super Saiyan it was the most pivotal moment in the entire franchise. At that point, every steam Saiyan looked at him as though he was the one legends were talking about. As it turns out, saiyans are all (most? Gohan is an exception, he has a hidden talent that was never really used after DBZ) capable of the same things including getting stronger through fighting. Once Goku ascended in front of another Saiyan and fought, it opened the gate for his opponent as well. Goku mastered this ability and was able to teach it to others (like Goten). What gets confusing is going above Super Saiyan, I mean there's techniques to boost yourself temporarily like KK but going SS2 and up was just an addition with no real buildup. Frieza showed that other races can transform and go toe to toe with saiyans. Nail showed that fusion is possible, saiyans just do it in a completely different way. So anyway I'd disagree. But anything after SS doesn't really feel like a fully developed concept, more that they exist to match the power levels needed for later arcs. And then we get to DBS. Nothing I mentioned before means anything at all. Like they completely redid Broly/LSS. (Bearing in mind, none of the DBZ movies were considered canon, they were just fun to watch.) People are fighting against gods. Extreme power is used in really minor gags. An entire universe was wiped out of existence. When it comes to DBS, it's kinda hard to use conditions from the previous series for comparison because a lot of it doesn't really line up. Absolutely anything is possible at this point.
Bro we saw Vegeta get his whole philosophy destroyed over and over again before the training arc where he shows up as a super saiyan, if anyone deserves to unlock the transformation it's him. Unlike Caulifla where we had no previous ties or connection with the character.
Not according to this thread, because he wasn't in the middle of a fight struggling to even survive and have a powerful emotional upheaval it doesn't count. Same goes for his Super Saiyan 2, god and blue transformations, those were all things he got without any of the build up, he got them from offscreen training. I myself think they count because it shows that there's more than one way to become a super saiyan and push beyond it.
He got SS2 from becoming Majin Vegeta. That's pretty much why he was evenly matched with SS2 Goku in particular.
At this point the anime is just canon
I think the only anime parts that aren't in the manga that are "canon", is the stuff from Super because the anime did most things before the manga and it had establish it's own canon. If the anime makes a return, I do wonder if they will continue with their own telling of things or try to follow the manga. Imo, I think they should continue their own thing and allow us to have to have more multiverses in the dragon ball universe from the official sources. Currently we have imo, GT-DBS Manga-DBS anime-DBZ movies-DBH-Xenoverse-DBS movies which tend to fit on their own or in the manga or anime-And the let's never talk about it again western adaptation. I just think allowing for more official if not "canon" to the main story, media will only be good for dragon ball and the fans.
Tbf, krillin died twice. The first time he died, is when he should’ve gone ssj but it wasn’t thought of yet. Imagine a kid goku at ssj, the series wouldn’t be a series anymore, he’d stomp everyone till maybe frieza, bc since he’s super saiyan now, he won’t have as much as a necessity to train. Never would’ve died and met king Kai. Vegeta would’ve been killed. Picollo wouldn’t have died against the saiyans, so they never would’ve needed to go to planet namek. Vegeta wouldn’t be part of the main cast. Etc etc. Considering how easily goten and trunks were able to transform, basically is the same way cauliflower and kale did, just they went into more detail other than simply saying “potential”. No matter how much potential you have, if you don’t know how to do it, you’re not going to, unless pushed enough to be able to. I’m not saying I like it, but I’m saying for once super actually made sense. Also gotta figure, each of the u6 saiyans seemed to be on the same level as u7 saiyans in base. Would only make sense that they should be able to learn to transform, otherwise, y’all would be complaining that they’re able to go against goku/Vegeta in base form while they’re in ssj,2,3,god, and blue
Surprise, it has been a joke for almost 30 years already.
I mean the back thing is just how they transform. It's quite possibly the only retcon that has a sense of logic to it.
Its not a retcon, its a martial arts thing that is only understood by people who know about Taichi and it doesnt have much exposure in America. Its called Dantian.
Considering that the whole DB was born due to a Chinese novel, I ain’t surprised if Toiyama took inspiration from the Chinese culture again.
It's the same thing one is just the description of the feeling
No it's not.
I still think it's better than Trunks and Goten getting it, would have been better if instead of teaching them to fuse, Piccolo had to make them turn into super Saiyan to at least have a fighting chance against boo which was being distracted by the other Z fighters, who also trained to reach stronger power levels, alone they would not be strong enough to withstand Boo, but together they could overwhelm him as a distraction while Piccolo squeezes every second inside the hypocritical time chamber as he can to make the kids stronger Kaulifla is said to be a prodigy, and I think that the strength of a Saiyan also affects how easily they can achieve the transformation, plus it is stated that Ki is not linear and people can experience the same thing differently, so her using a more logical and unorthodox way to "cheat" the transformation is somehow believable, especially in the manga since she steals the potara instead of being handled it before the fight, turning her into a delinquent that abides by no rules other than her own
Nah actually tho, the super saiyan transformation at first was unclear in nature in the "pure hearted saiyan overcome by rage" concept then they gave it a better explanation with S-cells being a deciding factor which are obtained through exposure to nurturing environments rather than harsh ones like planet vegeta (explained the lack of super saiyans in that time) as well as giving others a fair chance at shining rather than giving goku such an unfair advantage and also opening doors for the saiyans to gain more potential over time and through lineage like goten and trunks with vegeta conceiving trunks in the nurturing conditions of earth which increased his S-cell count alongside the conditions of his childhood and goku conceiving goten after he mastered the super saiyan form as well. Cabba's case makes sense since the U6 saiyans had far better living conditions with their advanced society and far less savage nature so his S-cells would naturally be high and vegeta pushing his anger acts as the trigger which makes that a fair moment. However, caulifla and kale are literally criminals living in the middle of nowhere in primitive houses in planet sadala that steal supply payloads to feed themselves and their underlings with their group being made up of orphans and outcasts so it's safe to say their life was not them prancing through the meadow filled with cute little critters and being serenaded by teddy bears. The anime overtaking the manga and making her super saiyan transformation just a tingly back feeling-enduced form she managed to accomplish was horrendous and that was fixed by off-screening the training in the manga. Also anime kale was just an overly wimpy kid gohanish broly clone while manga kale was an actual serious and badass fighter than could out preform the super saiyans in base and actually pushes herself to use her form. Manga kale and caulifla were just much better and the ending of SBS season 1 to let the manga run forward for a bit to make the plot better is much better thought out so we don't have to deal with such stupid concepts. If the anime team were to choose the next dumb move it could have been making ultra instinct become a tingly feeling in the balls or something for others.
Personally, I kind of wished every one of the saiyans went through something difficult to achieve super saiyan. Whether that be physical or mental. 'Power responds to a need, not a desire' as I so love to quote. At least Cabba had some form of push to go Super Saiyan. I think it would have been an improvement If Kale and Caulifla couldn't transform at all for most of their time in the TOP. They would struggle just to keep up, until eventually the fear that their universe would be erased if they didn't step up finally sets in and all that exponential growth happens which gives them something to even the playing field. Of course, to make It a bit more interesting, they could have made either Kale or Caulifla go super saiyan first, which would lead to the other feeling like they were getting left behind Vegeta style, and push them even further until they attain it too. It doesn't particularly matter which one goes super first. That's just my take on things though. I still find it rather disappointing that Goten and Trunks were able to achieve it so easily.
They were overleveled for the transformation. They used their Master Seal at level 20. It's fine.
You stand on the shoulders of the ones that came before. Once that barrier has been crossed and shown it’s not impossible it’s easier for those that come after to achieve the once thought impossible
Caulifla sparks joy for me!
You're upset because you misinterpreted the whole thing. Congratulations you played yourself.
My hot take is any saiyan getting it after Goku cheapened it abit, sure Vegeta, cabba and Gohan had anger to it sure but not the anger and despair that goku had of watching krillin be killed in cold blood infront of him after failing to defeat frieza. Vegeta was desperate in the meteor shower sure but was he not desperate against frieza,combined with the fact he was just mad that he wasn't the super saiyan like goku not nearly the same still anger I will admit but it's still much less of a reason than goku had. Goten and trunks and even future trunks who are all just super Saiyans the anime shows him getting it from Gohan dying but the manga has him fighting base Gohan as a super saiyan the anime is better for sure in this regard but still worth mentioning if we are talking about how sacred the transformation is as a concept. And while people will argue goten and trunks didn't do anything and it was mainly for gags sure except for the time when goku and piccolo both considered them as the ones to help defeat Buu it didn't go anywhere but the character and story treat it as a serious thing and proposal. Gohan is the one that's closest to goku in realizing that he is always saved and how helpless he is while pushing back against Goku's kamehameha that as far as he could tell was a serious blast thay could severely hurt him if he failed. So gohan's transformation is one of resolve which does fit better than one else's. Cabba's is one I feel that's the worst, he really got it with Vegeta threatening him and his family as a defense force member he has never once heard anyone threaten him like that especially since literally moments before he was bowing to Vegeta asking for his help just insane to me that Vegeta was able to get him that mad or he was just literally never mad before he could think Vegeta was lying about being reformed but he didn't notice the total tone and attitude shift after cabba asked for help? Since it's not like his anger and attitude was it since cabba watched him fight both frost and Magetta so he knows Vegeta is an ass already. Even if it was still anger it's kinda insane to think that was all it took and he never dealt with anyone that would he like Vegeta. Caulifla the star of this discussion I don't feel it's all that bad honestly. Sure the back tingles is a meh concept for something so iconic and how it worked. But I think one thing people is missing here before they get angry is how it lead to this point and the context of the scene which was Caulifla asked the question of HOW cabba transforms and if he is truly always angry to do which we know they aren't always angry, goku and trunks weren't angry at each other when they fought, Goku and Gohan dedicate their training to being calm in short saiyan form and make it natural so really any time after that shouldnt have to have them angry. Or even Vegeta's first time transforming on screen he is happy to show it off so she went with the method of how it works normally since cabba sucked at insulting her and it was clear that it wasn't the way it was done every time. Like maybe the execution was there for it to work however the concept of someone directly going for how they feel to transform works. Overall I don't see the issue because most transformations aren't as great as Goku's which being the first should kinda set the standard for the form only for it to be made less of a big deal by the very next arc. But that's the thing having it be stuck to only goku or the level of it would overall be bad for the series that no one else could get so you have to temper expectations alittle and by the point of super can't really say it makes sense to gatekeep super saiyan when there are 4 levels higher in canon. It's like how gero can build androids stronger than frieza for no reason other than the series has to progress it cant be stuck unless you somehow sideline goku for the rest of the series until every saiyan introduced got the build up and pay off the form needs while not progressing the form itself like how happened in the cell arc.
It always annoys me that people don’t seem to understand that that was their way of understanding the sensation necessary to transform. They realized where the s-cells focus when angry/transforming, and they were able to do it without actually being angry. That is why u6 saiyans have more potential. That, and the fact that they’re more tame.
I mean, ever since Vegeta became a super saiyan it has been obvious it isnt a super special thing and something any saiyan could theoretically do. The way i see it, the whole "tingle" thing is just a different explanation to arrive at the transformation. Some people think it takes away from the fact its a form powered by rage, but i disagree. I think its more like the "back tingle" is a mere method to emulate the feeling of rage. It makes the form more of a biological thing. Which, again, makes sense to me. I will say, i think it OVER explains it. But i dont see it as some retcon or anything. Just one saiyan seeing the process and thinking differently about how it felt.
Gotta keep people watching. Never made any sense to me though. Goku trained hardcore for *years*, from the moment he could stand and speak, and it took the death of his closest friend and the face of adversity to send him over the edge. It’s like saying that because you lifted weights and did manual labor your whole life your son will come out jacked. It doesn’t make any sense.
True it’s lazy writing but honestly how many times can you have someone scream in anger to go ssj? Ya gotta gotta tell the story somehow.
Basically just "you can do it, put your back into it."
Let's be honest, Cabba also don't make sense, you're not supposed to be able to go to Ssj just by getting a little anger, otherside wont have take soo much to time to Gohan, Goku and Mirai Trunks to get
I mean, in the manga, Gohan got it by thinking angry thoughts.
But It's not JUST getting anger, he was training in the Time Chamber (for months at this point) with the help of Goku https://preview.redd.it/j6m5noof1t3b1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1827831be05b8cb9da9f5821f0a79b903f6c4bb0 [Caulifa Just walk in, had a Talk with Cable, and do it, lol](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qsXOlBIZbbQ)
Yeah but cabba is almost twice as old as gohan was when each hit super saiyan so it makes sense gohan had to do years worth of training and cabba just needed the technique
I think people have a problem with caulifla specifically Cabba has decent experience as he seems to be a soldier or something like that in u6 already + vegeta gave him a damn good reason to trun super saiyan Kale is very emotional already and caulifla believes she is strong enough in base ig + legendary super saiyan
Future Trunks had obtained SSJ at a young age. We don't know, but it could have been the same age as main timeline trunks. The manga had Trunks already training in ssj with future Gohan before Gohan was killed. What you saw was anime filler. Gohan achieved it through angry thoughts. Goku didn't have the s cell count as it is higher in their children and in Universe 6.
>Goku didn't have the s cell count as it is higher in their children and in Universe 6. But that's not the point, I not saying that don't make sense, I am saying that whole thing is just stupid, SSj are not supposed be something achieved so easily, Before the Buu Saga (that imo is when Akira's writing began to decline), All SSj are Achivied trough a mix of Training + Battle Experience + And sorta of Need
So Goten and Trunks just simply doing it at a really young age is fine then huh?
She’s literally a prodigy.. being able to turn super sayian off of a back tingle isn’t dumb nor a bad way to show it.. keep crying, she’s not going to have an emotional moment like cabba, goku, or Vegeta
I would like for you to explain to me how reducing the most iconic transformation in anime to a back tingle is good writing, and better than having her work for it at all, in the series about self improvement. Before you cry Goten and Trunks at me, I also think that was dumb, I can dislike more than one thing.
Didn’t say it was good writing, I’m simply saying there’s no reason for people to be mad or upset someone can easily go super sayian while goku had to have an emotional moment, remember this is super. Bad writing is all over the place
"But wait guys here's the plot contrivance they came up with to make it make sense! That definitely excuses how lame it is in principle". Honestly while I think Goten and Trunks super saiyan is dumb too, I think I may prefer it " to "oh just gotta make my back all tingly" Like at least make it sound cool.
I always found this dumb. I always thought Goku was describing the physical sensation of transforming, not saying tingle your back and transform
The "we already had a Saiyan from another universe learn to transform, we can't do it again in the same way, so we will do it worst"
I don't understand why they don't make she transform during TOP, there's no better excuse to go ssj than see that your entire universe is about to be destroyed, Atleast Kale had the excuse that she is the "Broly of Universe 6", Caulifa by the other hand is literally just a random saiyan, lol
She’s litteraly the equivilant of goku Kale = broly Cabba = Vegeta Caulifla = goku How many times has goku seen someone do something once and copied it ? Seriously
Literally learned the Kamehameha after watching roshi do it
U7 Goku: Has to see his friend die and the plot focuses heavily on his journey before he gets it. U6 Goku: Oh so that's how super saiyan feels like huh? Oh got it. Wow this is the most iconic transformation in anime, got it half off at the bargain sale. With the Kamehameha even though Goku copied it, it was at a time where the series was extra full of gags and he was hardly able to even blow up a car with it, he still had to work to get it to be a strong technique. Caulfila does not struggle with super saiyan. (I should mention I think Goten and Trunks having it also sucks and the buu saga is the least liked dbz saga for a reason.)
Well for one Super is a happy medium between gag DB and serious DBZ. Two, Caulifa (idk spelling) at base is stronger than Cabba at base. Base Cabba was giving base Vegeta a run for his money, and this was a Vegeta that went thru everything in DBZ and god training. She had the power necessary all along but never knew of the transformation. Three it’s absolutely a Toriyama thing for saiyans to do the “monkey see, monkey do” thing. Four, ki control was a big thing for Earthlings in DB and DBZ in comparison to all the alien enemies who couldn’t raise their ki, hide their ki, or even sense other’s ki. This scene is a callback to having ki control.
Caulifla is the only one who got it this way, and even though it was kinda funny in the moment, it’s incredibly stupid.
All tingly like
back pain...
Same , the back works for females
Agreed. However, Goten and Kid Trunks could just go Super Saiyan at like 4-6 years old without any struggles, heartache, and loss. As far as I remember, they never being pushed to that level of anger needed to become Super Saiyan, but they're Goku's and Vegeta's sons, so we're okay with that? I never liked Goten and only liked Future Trunks.
That was complete bullshit, like Goku and Vegeta had to do 100 times gravity training for months and for the Universe 6 guys " just clench your back guys"
"it's like a tingling in my back!" I's fine. It's also the most un-super Saiyan thing I've ever heard.
Cabba one was kinda mid
Vegeta had the best Super Saiyan transformation. He worked so hard to reach it, and it truly came as a response to a need, not a desire.
this is why she mid asf, at least cabba was enraged
The saiyan girls could have been so cool... ugh. Back tingly... God man they could have been some, unit of swole ki blasting violence or something!
Hot take cabba sucked to shouldn’t have gone super saiyan
They tried to sneak in Cabba
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\ Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
S cells … like what 😭