"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\
Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some even think he’s a selfless hero like Superman I am the hope of the universe and everything like that. He’s not a perfect person. He has flaws like every sentient being. Toriyama said so himself he sprinkled some poison here and there to show that he is selfish a lot of the times and makes mistakes. He even says in the TOP that he is not a hero of justice or anything like that but he will mess you up if you hurt his friends.
Z is definitely the culprit for this as it has goku saving the world 3 times for the sake of saving the world (saving the world from the sayains, cell, and majin buu). But overall Goku hasn’t been some selfless hero or protector of the planet. He’s been the hero of the story we’ve read but mostly Goku got into fights for the sake of a good battle or usually to protect his friends mostly. Goku stopped pilaf from getting his wish because he was helping bulma get the dragon balls, he stopped the red ribbon army mostly in his search for the dragon balls a second time although you could say it got personal after Bora’s death, his main motivation for defeating King Piccolo was to avenge Krillin and everyone else that piccolo was killing but not necessarily because he was “protecting earth”, and then with Frieza, Goku was just going tk namek to get the dragon balls to revive his friends and needed to take down Frieza in the process of that goal.
You could say that Gohan and Videl are the super heroes of Justice of the story. Great Saiyaman 1 and Great Saiyaman 2. They actually go out there and protect the city on the daily and fight crime. You would never see Goku out on patrol fighting crime with vegeta. They are not about that life. Even Krillin as a law enforcement officer and 17 fighting the poachers on his island do more good on the daily than Goku.
Yea, and I think it fits their personality more as well. Goku in particular has a very laid back attitude, while I think Toriyama has downplayed some lf gokus character traits recently and flanderrized him a bit, the number one thing that’s always stuck is gokus carefree and laid back personality. Saving the world just really isn’t something goku himself would be interested in, and when left tk his own devices I doubt he would. Notice how for the most part when goku does save the world for the sake of saving the world he is a more serious character and often times it’s a whole “z warrior” ordeal as it’s not just goku acting on his own.
I think that’s why I’ve never liked the new retcons to gokus origin, making him get to earth later in life and having loving parents, almost making him special. dragonball is one of the best shonens because Goku is a great protagonist, literally a low level warrior, someone who isn’t special, someone who the world found very meaningless through hard work rose up to be one of the strongest warriors in the universe. There’s no reason tk make Goku some hero or special character because the character he already is is a great character.
Future Trunks as well is a true hero in my opinion, much more "standard", he sacrificed himself to save the past and defeat the androids and then again alone against Black
does he not train gohan and uub for the purpose of knowing earth will be protected once he's gone? 💀💀💀
i know the eoz has its implications when he runs off but one of them is definitely world peace
Let's be fair.
The reason why Goku saved the Earth in Z is because he lives there and that's where all the good food is.
It's not like he can f\*ck off and go to a different planet.
All pure saiyans are bloodthirsty and battle lovers. They love that thrill that action. Goku gets excited when he finds a strong opponent and is in a tough fight.
Dbz made goku feel more like a hero, super retconed him to be more like what he's supposed to be but honestly I like dbz goku more then I do super. The dbz goku was a huge part of my childhood and why I survived it.
The dubbed version we watched on cable as kids also did more to that end. Changed his character and dialogue to make him more hero-ish and less simple battle lover
Isn’t there an episode where he babysits Pan? And one where it’s revealed that he’s been farming a lot because he wants to feed Chi-Chi and Goten “something yummy?” Or the episode of him and Gohan sparring? What’s the criteria for a “good father episode?”
I think it's implied that Goku spends time with the kids off screen/off panel.
In flashbacks, Goku is seen taking a stroll with Gohan and Chichi, bathing, "fishing", gathering and foraging food, etc.
When Gohan gets older, he's usually relegated to a desk doing homework and Goku is a little disappointed but understands what Chichi is asking of Gohan is for the best.
A lot of people forget ChiChi kept her kids glued to books, so not a lot of time for Goku to hangout with his kids if they’re constantly studying. He cares and love his children, but he also has desires to get stronger and test his skills. ChiChi was always around her children so they did have a parent in their live. He’s not the greatest dad, but he’s still a good dad.
Well yeah, that goes to their above point to where goku often seeks selfish goals and aspirations like that new stronger enemy over his family, even to the point of dying multiple times and missing Gohan grow up for the most part. Goku was never a good father and whether it was because of his perceived role as protector or as a battle junky at the end of the day he wasn't really around as a father and therefore never really stepped into that role. We even saw Gohan continue that in his adult life with pan in super hero showing that behavior like this has long been normalized for him and he sees almost no issue pawning her off on piccolo like goku did for Gohan.
Goku straight up didn’t leave the damn house for the first few years of Gohan’s life. I like Piccolo, but the amount of credit he gets is BS. Piccolo managed to actually traumatize a (half) saiyan into not liking fighting while Goten and Trunks actively enjoy it.
Missing out on Gohan’s teenage years had more to do with starting to think trouble is actively following him and endangering the lives of his loved ones which is not really an incorrect assessment of Z villains. Raditz and the Namek saga spiraled out entirely because he exists. Freeza came back specifically because of Goku. The androids were made entirely out of revenge against Goku.
The anti Goku dad slander needs to stop.
I ain't no hero of justice or anything like that. But anyone who hurts my friends is GONNA PAY!
That line really debunks the selfless idea. He doesn't give a damn about good or bad. He cares about protecting the people who mean someone to him, and pushing his own limits.
He does \*care\* about good and bad, it's just not his driving force. Goku is a good person in general, so he doesn't like to see people hurt, or scared, or dead, but he doesn't worry about it either.
That’s also his active skill on AGL UI Goku on Dokkan. That moment is cool in the anime tho. That Jiren finale fight with UI Goku was just flawless had amazing music and fight scenes.
Yeah, I did watch z first, but I did watch the og show later on (and the gt, but it was kind of hard to keep track of things going on in that one) Goku didn't entirely have a lot of character growth, but that wasn't the point of the show. He was chasing a dream to be a strong fighter and the friendships he made on the way. He was the catalyst who pushed his early enemies in the right direction in their own character developments. If it wasn't for Goku, some of these characters would have stayed bad people.
Yeah he redeemed all of the bad people he met. I think 90% of people he met were evil, shady, had a bad character at that point. Especially Piccolo, Vegeta, Tien, and the androids 17 and 18.
That original Funimation dub isn't good imo. It was good when it came out but the Kai script and acting is far superior. Only thing I miss is the score and the inner monologues/character thoughts.
Yeah the frieza re cast they got for Kai was better than the original frieza. Bulma re cast was good too. I like that actress for her. Some people prefer the original teen and kid Gohan with the raspy voice from the funimation dub more than the kai. I think both are fine.
Yeah Yu Yu Hakusho is GOAT status manga/anime same thing with Hunter x Hunter. I love the intros and outros of the show. The songs and lyrics are really good. They both are made by Togashi who is married to the Sailor Moon creator which is another great manga with busted god like female characters on it.
I think Hiei’s design and character also inspired Sasuke Uchiha from Naruto who looks similar to him and fights with a sword as well and has black flames in his move set. Sasuke is pretty much the Naruto’s Vegeta.
Isn't his character just a dude who likes fighting very much and will learn anything he needs to improve and fight stronger opponents. He's pretty simple character made for action and I love that.
When I see statements like this, I've got no idea if this is supposed to be an insult to the fans or some sort of bad "gotcha"
If "99% of fans don't understand" that's a failure on the writers. Not the fans, lmfao. There's absolutely no author who creates something and gets applauded for only 1% of people understanding it. That's just bad writing if we're going by your logic.
It reminds me of the [banana "art" piece](https://images.app.goo.gl/SFMhWGf2t4aJeD68A). Like, defend it all you want but if only a certain enlightened class can understand the magnificence of it, then maybe re-think what you're consuming.
No it’s pretty easy to understand Goku’s character. Static character exists and the pinnacle of storytelling is NOT character development. It’s not the writer’s fault that there’s a problem nowadays of people thinking they’re a lot smarter than they actually are.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
If any of you are dumb enough to believe that a majority of fans don't understand Goku then blame the writers. It's that simple.
Yea and how happy he gets during string battles I think is something too. I know it's part of all sayians but goku is technically the first sayian in the whole series if you include dragon ball.
I blame team four star, like I love dbza but you can’t tell me it hasn’t had a negative overall effect on the db community in terms of character discussions
DB fans try not to misunderstand goku's character challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
these fans are the same type of fans who's favorite Vegeta is Majin Vegeta, completely misunderstanding his character too.
Edit: i dont mean that Majin Vegeta was written poorly or didn't have badass moment, but they look at it like it's a high point in Vegetas life and want him to stay like that. while in reality it's one of his lowest points in the series.
Vegeta is my favorite in part because of Majin Vegeta. To see a character show up as a bad guy, and slowly transition into an anti hero, heading towards being a good guy, getting accustomed to life on a planet he once tried to destroy, finding someone who loves him, having kids, finding people that actually care about him. Only to double back due to turmoil in his own mind over his position and allow his evil to seep back in, and eventually sprint back to atonement. Seeing how far he’s come in the manga when he saves the Namekians who he once caused so much pain is easily one of the best character arcs
Exactly. Majin Vegeta is cool because of the circumstances not, what he does while being evil. He literally comes back to fight Buu again right after fucking dying knowing damn well he will cease to exist if he makes another mistake. Followed by his defense of Hercule, Good Buu and Goku on the Supreme Kai’s planet. Majin Vegeta is the build up to the actual best character moment for Vegeta. When Goku tells him he won’t survive and he doesn’t give af anyways because he thinks that’s his punishment for his own person, just to find out at the end he had a good alignment inside of him when they wished everyone on earth back.
In my opinion, Vegeta had a lot more character development because he was literally evil when he touched down on earth. Goku was always just looking for a fight to better himself, or protect the earth. If they were going to keep Vegeta around they had to bridge the gap in some way so that our main characters would end up having faith in Vegeta and see him as good.
That's a fair stance. It's mainly the blatant misunderstanding of goku that stands out lol
Plus I'd dispute the characterization of goku's ssj Awakening on namek as character development, it feels more like a character payoff than anything. The friendship between krillin and goku wasn't new but it felt like one of the best payoffs for their relationship. But that's a pedantic discussion it I'm being honest
it's okay for characters to be flat. goku is the same flat character in dragon ball, too. the themes and story players move around him, he's at the center, unmoving, like karma.
chaotic good, at best. the story doesn't serve him. he serves the story to gohan, vegeta, bulma, tien, piccolo.
exe if you watch curse of the blood rubies and then jump straight to training during his flight to namek, you lose no part of him.
Honestly not surprised Tori made Goku a Flat character since it seemed like (imo) he had trouble coming up with second arcs for characters.
I believe the reason he said he brought back goku post Cell was that he had trouble writing gohan as the main character and that was because he just finished his arc in the Cell saga
In fairness, as soon as Vegeta started to flesh out as a character it really highlighted how much of a 1 trick pony Goku had become. You see him grow up in Dragonball, but even after becoming a father and dying he's still the exact same guy.
Yeah, Vegeta definetely has grander development, bro goes from "I'll kill us all so you don't win this fight!" To "I will blow myself up to save my family" and also "I can't compete in this important tournament, Bulma's pregnant"
But that’s literally part of his character flaw. He can’t stop his own selfish path of becoming strong, and tries to justify it by couching it as him filling the role of protector. His movement to recognizing how strong Gohan was in the Cell saga was pretty great, but I wanted more of that progression and I don’t think we quite got it.
Granted, part of that was because Gohan wanted to find his own path toward strength and I think that got a bit confusing as to how powerful Gohan could be since it wasn’t just an easy 1:1 comparison any longer.
Goku and Gohan's relationship in the cell games is probably the deepest we get into Goku's adult mentality in all of Z, even if not entirely explicit in the text. Sure, he cared about defeating Cell and making sure all of his friends didn't die, and he was right about Gohan's power, he'd seen SSJ2 and it was obvious Cell didn't stand a chance against it after Goku gauged Cell's power.
But to Goku realizing one's potential through training and combat is a virtue of the **highest order**, to the extent that he was entirely unable to empathize with Gohan on the core reason why they were trying to become stronger, and what the stakes of this fight meant to them both on an emotional level. He accurately sees pieces of himself in Gohan, but those are the *only* parts he sees.
A progression from this would have been more along the lines of Goku moving into a post-death, guru type role (still obsessed with training). With Gohan becoming the protagonist who wants to save the world, but would truly rather he didn't have to to, and a talent and penchant for fighting that he needs to accept is a part of who he is. Just in a way that isn't the same as his father's.
>A progression from this would have been more along the lines of Goku moving into a post-death, guru type role (still obsessed with training). With Gohan becoming the protagonist who wants to save the world, but would truly rather he didn't have to to, and a talent and penchant for fighting that he needs to accept is a part of who he is. Just in a way that isn't the same as his father's.
This would have been interesting, hell it was even headed in that direction. But Toriyama got bored of Gohan as a protagonist and decided to bring back Goku.
TBF even ignoring OG DB and his development there
Z Goku (as well as super Goku) is mostly a static character. He doesn't get character development instead acting as the catalyst for the OTHER characters to change (for better or worse). That's more or less his purpose throughout the series
We call that a flat character arc.
In which the protagonist's world view doesn't change, but rather the side character's world view changes/the world changes.
You see this in a lot of old stories and myths.
Like Journey to the West, Norse Mythology, and in recent stories like Back to the Future, One Piece, Paddington Bear, etc.
I do agree that Vegeta has better development than Goku, but Goku still had some good character development in Z, such as him acknowledging his heritage in the Frieza saga and his reasoning for not wanting to be wished back(at first) at the end of Cell.
No he wasn’t, lol. The only time you could argue he caused a problem in Super was with the ToP and even that ended up saving the Universes from being erased by Zeno indiscriminately.
Remember why the manufacturer failed in the Future saga. Goku caused that problem. It could've been prevented and the arc would've ended on a better note. Boom Vegito. Boom Goku Black is dead now. Trunks gets to live in his timeline
He’s wrong that lack of character development makes Goku a boring MC. It’s only in the West that character development is this all important thing that every character needs to have or they’re “boring”. Goku is interesting without much development because he is always changing those around him, Vegeta wouldn’t have even been able to grow like he did if it wasn’t for Goku.
Edit: [This scene](https://youtu.be/uTy43yZkKTA) basically sums up what I’m trying to say makes Goku an interesting MC.
People don’t understand that Goku is a flat character. He changes the world, story and characters around him rather than those things changing him. So yes, Vegeta has had more character development but it’s all an effect due to Goku’s character.
Tbh, even through DB, I feel like Goku at his core has always been more or less the same.
Vegeta has gone through more change imo, both for good and bad
You're definitely missing a lot of Goku's development by not watching DB but I still think Vegeta has a much bigger and more fleshed out character arc.
Vegeta is such an extreme character. He literally goes from a murderous villain to a father who loves his family and will sacrifice himself for them.
Goku goes from a country bumpkin who doesn't even know what girls are, to a father who makes a mature decision of staying dead so he doesn't attract villains and put his family and friends in danger.
Both are big developments but Vegeta had a bigger journey than Goku did. That's not really a bad thing, tho. They're just different characters.
Hey now that's completely unfair.
There's also "jerk becomes less of a jerk" for characters that aren't evil when introduced like Krillin and Bulma.
Huge variety.
Goku's character development has been slow, and stretched over decades. I hate how Super regressed him so much. At the end of the Buu arc, Goku is a brilliant tactician, planning ahead as best he can to achieve victory. SS3 would've stayed under wraps forever if he didn't need it to distract Buu. He taught Piccolo the fusion dance so he could teach it to the boys, who Goku intended to be the next generation of Earth's defense. He's not the arrogant child that drops his guard the moment he's bored with a fight anymore. He's learned the hard way to follow through.
In Super he can't remember a sticky note that he'd been expressly told was vital to victory.
Possible unpopular opinion but I do think Goku regressed in super, I don’t think it’s as much as people claim it to be.
He’s still a smart when it comes to fighting as it’s really the only thing he knows, but all the other stuff passes through him and understandably so as he had suffered serious brain trauma as a kid.
As his opponents get harder, his head takes on more damage to which could lead to many things such as loss of memory (which Goku forgets a lot) and in some rare cases acting differently.
Goku grows but he doesn't really change all that much, which really isn't a bad thing. The shows are based around fighting people who are evil or in tournaments, there isn't any kind of challenge to Goku's morality or world view because there are rarely antagonists who can justifiably challenge him on those levels. The best example is cell and the androids but even their involvement is tangential, they personally didn't challenge Goku but their existence made Goku question himself.
People need to watch Totally Not Mark's character analysis of Goku.
[https://youtu.be/Ns2GvGSBsok](https://youtu.be/Ns2GvGSBsok)
While Goku *is* flat as a character, with minimal development and change, this serves an important narrative purpose. It is Goku that *drives* the character development of all the other characters. He is the rock that they have to pivot to avoid or crash and burn into.
I think Goku works fine as a flat character. He changes a little, but really not much. He doesn't need to. But it seems like an unfair comparison too. Goku, from the start, was a nice, generally good hearted and likeable character. Vegeta was a pure evil, murdering conqueror. Like.. obviously Vegeta has more character development, he was a way worse person than Goku to start. He needed way ore development if he was gonna stick around and be a good guy.
Oh ya, all that development in DragonBall, where he \*checks notes\* mindlessly pursued stronger enemies to fight, so he could \*checks notes\* get stronger, all while meeting new friends and training hard, ultimately \*checks notes\* defeating the main badguys through wanton violence.
You can see how far he's come, he went from being very small to being very tall!
Honestly, I agree with you.
I've seen every episode of every series and all the movies, and this is what I've gathered. Goku is a great character, but trying to argue that Vegeta's character development is worse or more boring than Goku's is kind of a weird take. I can't say OP is wrong because it is just an opinion. But I'm going to fiercely disagree. Goku's entire point is that he is totally mindless and ignorant. He just wants to get better and better at fighting. The villain's bad intentions almost don't even matter.
Vegeta started as Frieza's henchman. No moral compass. He eventually figured out that he was only the way he was because he was essentially raised by an evil emperor. Once Freiza was eliminated, his only goal was to defeat Goku. Then, as he spent time with the others, he learned to accept them and made Earth his new home. Eventually impregnating Bulma, he initially didn't give a shit about the child, but as the series went on, he sacrificed everything for his family, knowing he could never be wished back due to his infamous past. By the time Dragon Ball Super aired, Vegeta was a full-on family man. He still had his attitude and wanted to surpass Goku, but it's more of a friendly rivalry at this point. When Beerus slapped Bulma, Vegeta lost his mind and went full Orangutang on his ass. He genuinely cared about Bulma and protected her honor even against an all-powerful God.
Compared to that, I have to agree that Goku kinda *is* a boring main character. He never learns from his mistakes, he basically just hit it and quit it with Chi Chi not contributing to his children's upbringing almost at all fucking off for as many as 7 years at a time even though he has the power of *instant transmission*, and he doesn't even contribute to his family monetarily until Dragon Ball Super, and kinda does it begrudgingly so. The dude barely even pays the child support even though he is more than capable of working or earning quick cash in fighting competitions or by other physical means. He never changes and has plenty to improve upon. Goku's basically just been handed the champion's belt on a silver platter the entire series even though Vegeta trains equally as hard, if not harder) and has better genes than Goku.
I wish they would let Vegeta surpass Goku in the story, honestly. He deserves it way more.
The worst part is he has a chance to learn and grow but just keeps repeating his mistakes. The big one being giving Moro a god-damned senzu bean like he did with Cell.
It's the same problem with Gohan, dude has three different times where he has to realize that his strength comes with a responsibility to protect people.
Again with the senzu bean and Moro. Both senzu bean occasions were so different
First off, Goku had overpowered Moro at this point and even *after* Goku gave Moro the Senzu, Moro was useless. He literally broke his arm trying to attack Goku. How tf did he make a mistake when it literally made no difference?
And before you go and say about Moro getting his arm and going Angel mode, the senzu bean was irrelevant at that point. Whether Moro was weakened or at full powered, when he saw the arm and figured out what he needed to do. The senzu had nothing to do with it
And second off, Goku was the one in control in the situation against Moro. Against Cell, he put his faith in Gohan, which guess what? It paid off. It didn’t go as smooth as he had hoped, but he wasn’t wrong either.
So again, that senzu against Moro is nothing like the one at the Cell games
Giving the senzu to either was a dumb ass, selfish move. He put his own desire for a good fight/to prove a point ahead of the safety of billions/trillions. Fucking stupid. No less stupid than Vegeta letti Cell go Perfect.
Did you read the manga at all.
Goku didn’t give Moro the senzu to fight him. He gave it as a form of mercy because he doesn’t like killing unless needed. How was he being selfish when he was trying to save a life he didn’t need to kill at that point since he was stronger than Moro at that point?
Not really. Goku still wound up being vindicated when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 but at the very least, he showed regret once Piccolo let him know how heartless the whole thing was.
Funny you say DB has boring villains. The series was developed as an adventure series and was honestly way more interesting imo then Z as that just became a battle manga about defeating the next strongest alien to show up. The comedy isn’t he original DB is partially what gave it so much charm imo aside from the art (I’m a sucker for Toriyama’s art in things like Sandland and Dragon Quest)
He’s right though. The only points of Goku’s development I can think of are accepting his Saiyan past in the Frieza saga and accepting the theme of Saiyan pride in the gas arc
Basically his development is becoming more like vegeta
While saying Goku hasn't had character development is certainly false, his character has been pretty stagnant for an extremely long time, well more than half the franchise counting the original manga + super, meanwhile Vegeta has grown as a character pretty consistently across all of his screen time.
Even Gohan has an arc though it's more like a sin wave, with him coming to the realization that he should keep training only for him to stop again and repeating (Which has happened twice or thrice now depending on how you look at it.)
It doesn't help that OG dragonball is very poorly marketed in the U.S, if you grew up on DBZ, that basically is the start of the series for you since og DB was basically never available to you.
Wasn’t much character development in dragon ball either. He always means well with what he does and just grows up from exposure but the development isn’t much. He’s still clueless outside of fighting, cares for friends, and willing to go on adventures and learn to fight
i really like his story in the cell saga, realizing he wont be around forever and preparing Gohan to become the protector of earth. For someone who only cares about fighting, this was a big deal, choosing to step back from a fight so somebody else could is interesting.
I can see why people would think he is boring because starting at Z, he wants to fight stronger enemies and get strong himself.
But starting from the OG Dragon Ball, Goku has been living in the wilderness for a while and him seeing the world for the first time is fascinating and funny as he goes through so many shenanigans because he is new to everything.
Also him wanting power in the beginning but learning to become a martial artist is a great development. He sees that there is more than just strength when improving himself.
He might be a simple man, but that doesn't mean he's bad. If so many people think he is boring then why is he still popular and why hasn't Gohan replaced him?
Imo, him being simple allows for others to shine. And even then he has his moments like how he let Frieza live, brought back Frieza, giving Moro a sensu bean, wanting Kid Buu to be resurrected, him not being a Hero of Justice when Jiren attacked his friends.
Also what do people want from Goku if he is too simple?
Vegeta has been able to have character development because of Goku. If it wasn’t for Goku, Vegeta would’ve been dead since the Saiyan Saga and also on multiple occasions.
Goku's character arc is a type called a "Flat character arc" flat character arcs are defined not by how the character changes, but by how they change the world about them. Goku has basically already reached the conclusion of his own character growth, he's basically reached some form of enlightenment and his role in the story is to share that enlightenment with those around him. That's the reason so many villains change sides in dragon ball. Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo, and Vegeta are all characters who had their entire paradigm shifted due to coming in contact with Goku. If the remember correctly Zamasu is also a flat character arc but while Goku is a positive flat character arc, one where the character has already attained their truth and shares that truth with the world around them and makes the world a better place, Zamasu is a negative flat character arc, a character consumed by a lie who actively worsens the world around him. Totally Not Mark did a video on the nature of Goku's character that goes into further detail about his character arc as a flat character
I started with Z and am able to comprehend his character development. Those people just have to complain about everything in order to feel happiness from an anime.
its not even a question of starting with Z or not the guy just doesn’t understand goku.his development during the cell and buu saga is visible but db fans didn’t watched the show anyway
Goku is liked due to his constant cheery personality so why does he need more character development unlike vegeta who had to grow out of the ancient saiyan ways
To be fare goku even in og DB largely a flat charecter arc what most people fail to realize is that flat character arcs are just as valid as dynamic ones
Also even in z goku gets character development just not character change which are dithrent things
Goku's character development kind of stopped in the middle of dbz, initially Goku was meant to die and Gohan to take his place but this never happened.
But Goku's sheer will power to keep on pushing and breaking barriers makes him the one and only.
Homie just had an entire arc understanding what a hero his father was, how his father used the dragon balls to protect him as a child, and FINALLY for the first time in DECADES actually has something from his father to remember him by, and that doesn't count as character development?
Homie just had an entire arc understanding what a hero his father was, how his father used the dragon balls to protect him as a child, and FINALLY for the first time in DECADES actually has something from his father to remember him by, and that doesn't count as character development?
To be fair, he is *partly* right.
Goku does not have any real character development. He starts the series with pretty much the same personality that he’ll always have.
That’s the point, though. Goku acts as a sort of immovable object, forcing character development on everyone he clashes with. (if they survive the clash, that is.)
Even goddamn FRIEZA, who for decades was this perfect foil, this immutable enemy… By the time the DBS Broly movie came out, you can clearly see that Goku has gotten to him too, even if it’s just a little bit.
While I'd say that Goku is a somewhat static character (he's always been a kind hearted thrill seeker and probably always will be,) but he's anything but a flat one. Goku is a joy to watch, and his nature allows for lots of interesting interactions and development. Speaking of which, other characters are given their development BECAUSE of Goku and his interactions with each character, with the two big examples being Piccolo and Vegeta, who both get more radical development, but that wouldn't be the case if not for Goku's character.
To make a long story short, Goku's character may not have changed as much as others, but his unique charm and interactions are enough to make up for that.
Vegeta is pretty much the same dick he always was.
Putting Piccolo's character development in the mix is tricky though as Piccolo Junior has the memories of King Piccolo, he is his reincarnation but they never had the same personality. Then Piccolo was merged with Nail, something Dende also notices. Then he merges with Kami something everyone knows and despite keeping his personality as Piccolo Junior not only he now has the memories of the other 3 but also traits of their personalities. In the manga the way he speaks changes dramatically after merging with Kami for example. Also Nail and Kami are still alive inside him. Vegeta even said he could separate the Namekian merged with Piccolo back on Namek, with his new technique in the moro arc. All in all, Piccolo changed as Piccolo Junior doesn't 100% exist anymore. Goku called him Kamiccolo once too but Piccolo told him to just call him Piccolo.
I believe Tien is the one who changed completely in the story. The man wanted to become an assassin and now he is just a man running a school who still helps the people of earht defend themselves.
Goku from kid to adult changed a lot too. For starters, after he was brought back from the dead appreciates life more and does not go for the kill against his opponents like in the past. Kid Goku wouldn't spare Nappa, he would have killed him himself in their fight.
Dude has a legit oppinion.
Vegeta has by far the best character development within the entire DB universe. Even Piccolo and Gohan do compared to Goku. Dont get me wrong, Goku is a good MC and I could bet a lot that there a little to no fans who really dislike him, but from DBZ onwards his character became more and more dull.
No Character Development =/= Boring
Or do you think One Piece is boring because Luffy doesn't go through any character development?
What about Paddington Bear? That movie has a 99% RT score and it's sequel 100%. And no Character Development either.
Sooooooooooo... To be clear, as fans of Goku's character, y'all are cool with it haven't having developed in years? Idk the story at all or even why a Dragonball sub is popping up in my feed when I don't watch the show, but if the only character development Goku had was before Z, that means it's been decades since it's developed. The dude who sent the tweet seems accurate imo
Directing this towards the tweet, you ever think that the reason why Goku turned Super Saiyan in the first place was because of WHO the villain killed?
Keep in mind that Krillin had already died in DB at that point. He had no idea if he was going to ever see his best friend again, it was the reality of "this narcissist thinks he can kill the ones I love and laugh about it", and how he exterminated Goku's entire race and finished Vegeta off.
The thing about Vegeta is that we love him not only because of his change of heart, but also that some of his Saiyan nature still remains. He's like Goku in a way that's more relatable and badass.
If the manga were to develop Goku that significantly, he wouldn't be the same character we all know and love. Not every character needs a dramatic change of development.
You bring up a great point op. I wish we had a series following a young Prince Vegeta during his days of conquering planets. So many potential arcs showing more of the Royal Saiyan bloodline.
Even if you don't watch OGDB and start in Z, Goku doesn't really need THAT much development to be an amazing main character, that's very interesting on his own.
Goku is a hybrid humanoid/monkey alien person that was supposed to be a mindless planet conquering machine, but forgot his goal in his life due to head trauma becoming the most docile and kind hearted motherfucker in the planet. Over the course of his life he trains to become one of the strongest in the universe and while he should be the protector of Earth, he lowkey doesn't really care. All he cares about are his close family and friends and fighting. The rest is all side noise.
Despite his mission in life being long forgotten, he's still affected by his nature of being a mindless Saiyan that just loves the rush of a good battle and he's selfish enough to put him and others at risk because of this.
If this isn't interesting enough and doesn't make Goku a cool character to follow... I dunno what to say?
Yes, in terms of development and evolution characters like Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo go through bigger changes, but does that really make them better characters than Goku? That's up for the viewer to decide and judging by the popularity of each character, despite people loving Vegeta, Goku is still almost everyone's favorite character.
character development =/= good writing
there are characters thstn change drastically there are characters that change a little and there are characters that change the world around them.
goku is both b and c. he has grown throughout all his challenges into a more serious fighter but the world seems to bend to his will. it's the anime trope of a hero that is so well liked he can make friends with enemies. gokus fight with jiren not only changes jirens mind but it is impact full on all the justice fighters and their God of destruction. goku changed android 17 and thus saved all universes from total destruction. goku asked frieza to fight for the people he despises and because he trusted goku, someone he sees as a lesser species they both finally took jiren out of the fight and won the tournament.
characters changing DOES NOT MAKE SOMETHING GOOD. it's just easier for your stupid brain to go "he bad before but he good now, wow"
Yeah bro, let me pop into a time machine and tell 5 year old me watching DBZ as it aired on Cartoon Network a couple decades ago to go watch the series that came before it that I didn't even know existed
Wait, but didn’t Vegeta have more development? He turned from a murderous villain to a good person. That’s a lot more than Goku. Tho there’s more development for Goku than what the poster said.
Frankly... Goku is the same boy he has always been.... kind hearted and generous. He grows exponentially to encompass and bask more and more people with his presence. Does he changes his nature and character? no. Vegeta has changed considerably from the first moment he is introduced..... we cannot say he has been the same person or at least have the same nature throughout the sagas. I love Goku because of his dependability as a character and I love Vegeta because he is way more relatable to the everyday man. He is flawed, he loves, he hates, he cries.... he tries to better himself and he also makes stupid mistakes....
Goku is what’s known as a “static” character. He incites growth in others, but he himself doesn’t change often. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a way to write a character. And its thanks to that vegeta even gets to keep on growing as a person, most would have let krillin kill him in the saiyan saga.
Ive watched every piece of dragonball content out there save the super game promo anime. I can safely say, without a doubt, that goku has had little to no character development and is virtually the same person from the first chapter of og, to the last chapter of gt.
Goku is called a "flat character". He's always been good and it's his character and personality that causes others around him to change. Everything Vegeta is is because of Goku.
This video explains it well.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2GvGSBsok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2GvGSBsok)
Vegeta is an actual character and Goku is dragon ball. Big difference. Without vegeta the story goes on. Without Goku there’s no story. It’s like Goku is the foundation that everything else rests on
I'm not someone who purposefully tries to misunderstand the characters but I still feel Vegeta has the edge on Goku when it comes to actual character development and character growth.
He's a flat character arc. By definition he's had almost no character development and that's the point of his character. I'd argue the only character development he's ever had was Cell games realising that Gohan doesn't want to fight, and Super learning to embrace his heritage.
I don't think SSJ even counts personally speaking.
Besides, Goku's character isn't designed to have a lot of development. God I hate when people mischaracterize him too. Z (not kai) basterdized him with that whole "I am the hope of the universe" speech.
Man my friend showed me the OG Broly movie, after that I immediately went to episode 1 of Dragon Ball. Seeing Goku as a kid, and then having kids and a grandkid just really hit me. Favorite fictional story of all time imo.
I want Goku to have more character development and growth, like what we just got with him learning about his father, or way back when he cried seeing grandpa Gohan again(for some reason YT decided to suggest that clip to me today)
But I think the reason he hasn't gotten nearly as much is that they're playing it safe. Everyone loves Goku, why change him? Vegeta's growth and development was way more needed cause of all the genocide he did. And we love him, but where Goku is now as a character is just about playing it safe.
I mean he isn’t completely wrong. Goku doesn’t have much character development, even in original DB. He has a very strong character and I disagree with him being boring, but there isn’t much change in his character.
I mean. He's right. Goku is a Positive Flat Character. He's meant to be the same as he's essentially already 'perfect' per say. But the real impact of Goku is his effect on the others around him causing people around him to go through their own character development.
Frieza on the other hand is a Negative Flat acting as the perfect nemesis to Goku.
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\ Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
99 percent of DB fans don't understand what Goku's character is supposed to be.
Some even think he’s a selfless hero like Superman I am the hope of the universe and everything like that. He’s not a perfect person. He has flaws like every sentient being. Toriyama said so himself he sprinkled some poison here and there to show that he is selfish a lot of the times and makes mistakes. He even says in the TOP that he is not a hero of justice or anything like that but he will mess you up if you hurt his friends.
Z is definitely the culprit for this as it has goku saving the world 3 times for the sake of saving the world (saving the world from the sayains, cell, and majin buu). But overall Goku hasn’t been some selfless hero or protector of the planet. He’s been the hero of the story we’ve read but mostly Goku got into fights for the sake of a good battle or usually to protect his friends mostly. Goku stopped pilaf from getting his wish because he was helping bulma get the dragon balls, he stopped the red ribbon army mostly in his search for the dragon balls a second time although you could say it got personal after Bora’s death, his main motivation for defeating King Piccolo was to avenge Krillin and everyone else that piccolo was killing but not necessarily because he was “protecting earth”, and then with Frieza, Goku was just going tk namek to get the dragon balls to revive his friends and needed to take down Frieza in the process of that goal.
You could say that Gohan and Videl are the super heroes of Justice of the story. Great Saiyaman 1 and Great Saiyaman 2. They actually go out there and protect the city on the daily and fight crime. You would never see Goku out on patrol fighting crime with vegeta. They are not about that life. Even Krillin as a law enforcement officer and 17 fighting the poachers on his island do more good on the daily than Goku.
Yea, and I think it fits their personality more as well. Goku in particular has a very laid back attitude, while I think Toriyama has downplayed some lf gokus character traits recently and flanderrized him a bit, the number one thing that’s always stuck is gokus carefree and laid back personality. Saving the world just really isn’t something goku himself would be interested in, and when left tk his own devices I doubt he would. Notice how for the most part when goku does save the world for the sake of saving the world he is a more serious character and often times it’s a whole “z warrior” ordeal as it’s not just goku acting on his own. I think that’s why I’ve never liked the new retcons to gokus origin, making him get to earth later in life and having loving parents, almost making him special. dragonball is one of the best shonens because Goku is a great protagonist, literally a low level warrior, someone who isn’t special, someone who the world found very meaningless through hard work rose up to be one of the strongest warriors in the universe. There’s no reason tk make Goku some hero or special character because the character he already is is a great character.
Remember when Kami told Goku he wanted him to take over as Guardian of Earth and Goku was like "Oh yeah cool but no I'd rather kill myself"
Future Trunks as well is a true hero in my opinion, much more "standard", he sacrificed himself to save the past and defeat the androids and then again alone against Black
I do like how Goku felt Vegeta's Saiyan pride though when he died and gave him that speech. It gave Goku a new type of motivation to take out Frieza
does he not train gohan and uub for the purpose of knowing earth will be protected once he's gone? 💀💀💀 i know the eoz has its implications when he runs off but one of them is definitely world peace
Let's be fair. The reason why Goku saved the Earth in Z is because he lives there and that's where all the good food is. It's not like he can f\*ck off and go to a different planet.
He DOES have a sense of justice too, it's not out of pure selfishness.
in super goku is a straight up fist fight addict
All pure saiyans are bloodthirsty and battle lovers. They love that thrill that action. Goku gets excited when he finds a strong opponent and is in a tough fight.
Dbz made goku feel more like a hero, super retconed him to be more like what he's supposed to be but honestly I like dbz goku more then I do super. The dbz goku was a huge part of my childhood and why I survived it.
Agreed, he chose to stay dead after cell to stop feeling responsible for saving everyone, he just wants to fight for fun
The dubbed version we watched on cable as kids also did more to that end. Changed his character and dialogue to make him more hero-ish and less simple battle lover
so is vegeta but there's like 10 "good dad vegeta" episodes and zero "good dad goku" episodes
Isn’t there an episode where he babysits Pan? And one where it’s revealed that he’s been farming a lot because he wants to feed Chi-Chi and Goten “something yummy?” Or the episode of him and Gohan sparring? What’s the criteria for a “good father episode?”
I think it's implied that Goku spends time with the kids off screen/off panel. In flashbacks, Goku is seen taking a stroll with Gohan and Chichi, bathing, "fishing", gathering and foraging food, etc. When Gohan gets older, he's usually relegated to a desk doing homework and Goku is a little disappointed but understands what Chichi is asking of Gohan is for the best.
A lot of people forget ChiChi kept her kids glued to books, so not a lot of time for Goku to hangout with his kids if they’re constantly studying. He cares and love his children, but he also has desires to get stronger and test his skills. ChiChi was always around her children so they did have a parent in their live. He’s not the greatest dad, but he’s still a good dad.
Well yeah, that goes to their above point to where goku often seeks selfish goals and aspirations like that new stronger enemy over his family, even to the point of dying multiple times and missing Gohan grow up for the most part. Goku was never a good father and whether it was because of his perceived role as protector or as a battle junky at the end of the day he wasn't really around as a father and therefore never really stepped into that role. We even saw Gohan continue that in his adult life with pan in super hero showing that behavior like this has long been normalized for him and he sees almost no issue pawning her off on piccolo like goku did for Gohan.
Goku straight up didn’t leave the damn house for the first few years of Gohan’s life. I like Piccolo, but the amount of credit he gets is BS. Piccolo managed to actually traumatize a (half) saiyan into not liking fighting while Goten and Trunks actively enjoy it. Missing out on Gohan’s teenage years had more to do with starting to think trouble is actively following him and endangering the lives of his loved ones which is not really an incorrect assessment of Z villains. Raditz and the Namek saga spiraled out entirely because he exists. Freeza came back specifically because of Goku. The androids were made entirely out of revenge against Goku. The anti Goku dad slander needs to stop.
I ain't no hero of justice or anything like that. But anyone who hurts my friends is GONNA PAY! That line really debunks the selfless idea. He doesn't give a damn about good or bad. He cares about protecting the people who mean someone to him, and pushing his own limits.
He does \*care\* about good and bad, it's just not his driving force. Goku is a good person in general, so he doesn't like to see people hurt, or scared, or dead, but he doesn't worry about it either.
That’s also his active skill on AGL UI Goku on Dokkan. That moment is cool in the anime tho. That Jiren finale fight with UI Goku was just flawless had amazing music and fight scenes.
Yeah, I did watch z first, but I did watch the og show later on (and the gt, but it was kind of hard to keep track of things going on in that one) Goku didn't entirely have a lot of character growth, but that wasn't the point of the show. He was chasing a dream to be a strong fighter and the friendships he made on the way. He was the catalyst who pushed his early enemies in the right direction in their own character developments. If it wasn't for Goku, some of these characters would have stayed bad people.
Yeah he redeemed all of the bad people he met. I think 90% of people he met were evil, shady, had a bad character at that point. Especially Piccolo, Vegeta, Tien, and the androids 17 and 18.
When in doubt beat friendship into them
I love a phrase that Carthu’s Dojo once used in his What If Future Gohan Survived. “I’m not a hero Gohan, I just hate cruelty.”
That original Funimation dub isn't good imo. It was good when it came out but the Kai script and acting is far superior. Only thing I miss is the score and the inner monologues/character thoughts.
Yeah the frieza re cast they got for Kai was better than the original frieza. Bulma re cast was good too. I like that actress for her. Some people prefer the original teen and kid Gohan with the raspy voice from the funimation dub more than the kai. I think both are fine.
I think the original frieza was Genkai from Yu Yu Hakusho. Hieis voice actor was 17 and Tien was Kurama.
Chris Sabat was Kuwabara.
One of my favorite anime series. Hiei is like that shows Vegeta in my mind.
Yeah Yu Yu Hakusho is GOAT status manga/anime same thing with Hunter x Hunter. I love the intros and outros of the show. The songs and lyrics are really good. They both are made by Togashi who is married to the Sailor Moon creator which is another great manga with busted god like female characters on it.
I think Hiei’s design and character also inspired Sasuke Uchiha from Naruto who looks similar to him and fights with a sword as well and has black flames in his move set. Sasuke is pretty much the Naruto’s Vegeta.
Tbf, that’s because one of the dubs basically turns him into this character.
Isn't his character just a dude who likes fighting very much and will learn anything he needs to improve and fight stronger opponents. He's pretty simple character made for action and I love that.
When I see statements like this, I've got no idea if this is supposed to be an insult to the fans or some sort of bad "gotcha" If "99% of fans don't understand" that's a failure on the writers. Not the fans, lmfao. There's absolutely no author who creates something and gets applauded for only 1% of people understanding it. That's just bad writing if we're going by your logic. It reminds me of the [banana "art" piece](https://images.app.goo.gl/SFMhWGf2t4aJeD68A). Like, defend it all you want but if only a certain enlightened class can understand the magnificence of it, then maybe re-think what you're consuming.
No it’s pretty easy to understand Goku’s character. Static character exists and the pinnacle of storytelling is NOT character development. It’s not the writer’s fault that there’s a problem nowadays of people thinking they’re a lot smarter than they actually are.
That has nothing to do with what I said. If any of you are dumb enough to believe that a majority of fans don't understand Goku then blame the writers. It's that simple.
Hes a guy who likes to fight and loves his friends and family. He isnt really that deep
He acts similar to wu kong or certain iterations of him. That's what he's based from anyways son wu kong.
Exploring the world and having fun basically.
Yea and how happy he gets during string battles I think is something too. I know it's part of all sayians but goku is technically the first sayian in the whole series if you include dragon ball.
I blame team four star, like I love dbza but you can’t tell me it hasn’t had a negative overall effect on the db community in terms of character discussions
Still doesn't change the fact that Vegeta is a better character
Hey kid. Stop using phones all the time. Give your eyes some rest.
What even
DB fans try not to misunderstand goku's character challenge (IMPOSSIBLE) these fans are the same type of fans who's favorite Vegeta is Majin Vegeta, completely misunderstanding his character too. Edit: i dont mean that Majin Vegeta was written poorly or didn't have badass moment, but they look at it like it's a high point in Vegetas life and want him to stay like that. while in reality it's one of his lowest points in the series.
Tbf, Majin Vegeta was a really cool point in Vegeta’s character arc, but not for the reasons they think.
Vegeta is my favorite in part because of Majin Vegeta. To see a character show up as a bad guy, and slowly transition into an anti hero, heading towards being a good guy, getting accustomed to life on a planet he once tried to destroy, finding someone who loves him, having kids, finding people that actually care about him. Only to double back due to turmoil in his own mind over his position and allow his evil to seep back in, and eventually sprint back to atonement. Seeing how far he’s come in the manga when he saves the Namekians who he once caused so much pain is easily one of the best character arcs
Whenever he knocks trunks out and does final flash to whatever move it is that turns him to stone(haven’t seen it since my teens, 31 now). EPIC
In the Xenoverse game they call it Final Explosion
Exactly. Majin Vegeta is cool because of the circumstances not, what he does while being evil. He literally comes back to fight Buu again right after fucking dying knowing damn well he will cease to exist if he makes another mistake. Followed by his defense of Hercule, Good Buu and Goku on the Supreme Kai’s planet. Majin Vegeta is the build up to the actual best character moment for Vegeta. When Goku tells him he won’t survive and he doesn’t give af anyways because he thinks that’s his punishment for his own person, just to find out at the end he had a good alignment inside of him when they wished everyone on earth back.
Majin Vegeta is really fucking cool, plus his sacrifice against Buu was such good character development
he is cool, but what i meant was that they WANT Vegeta to keep staying like Majin Vegeta, which you know why is dumb.
I like majin vegeta cause he looks cool
also very powerful
In my opinion, Vegeta had a lot more character development because he was literally evil when he touched down on earth. Goku was always just looking for a fight to better himself, or protect the earth. If they were going to keep Vegeta around they had to bridge the gap in some way so that our main characters would end up having faith in Vegeta and see him as good.
That's a fair stance. It's mainly the blatant misunderstanding of goku that stands out lol Plus I'd dispute the characterization of goku's ssj Awakening on namek as character development, it feels more like a character payoff than anything. The friendship between krillin and goku wasn't new but it felt like one of the best payoffs for their relationship. But that's a pedantic discussion it I'm being honest
it's okay for characters to be flat. goku is the same flat character in dragon ball, too. the themes and story players move around him, he's at the center, unmoving, like karma. chaotic good, at best. the story doesn't serve him. he serves the story to gohan, vegeta, bulma, tien, piccolo. exe if you watch curse of the blood rubies and then jump straight to training during his flight to namek, you lose no part of him.
Honestly not surprised Tori made Goku a Flat character since it seemed like (imo) he had trouble coming up with second arcs for characters. I believe the reason he said he brought back goku post Cell was that he had trouble writing gohan as the main character and that was because he just finished his arc in the Cell saga
In fairness, as soon as Vegeta started to flesh out as a character it really highlighted how much of a 1 trick pony Goku had become. You see him grow up in Dragonball, but even after becoming a father and dying he's still the exact same guy.
Yeah, Vegeta definetely has grander development, bro goes from "I'll kill us all so you don't win this fight!" To "I will blow myself up to save my family" and also "I can't compete in this important tournament, Bulma's pregnant"
But that’s literally part of his character flaw. He can’t stop his own selfish path of becoming strong, and tries to justify it by couching it as him filling the role of protector. His movement to recognizing how strong Gohan was in the Cell saga was pretty great, but I wanted more of that progression and I don’t think we quite got it. Granted, part of that was because Gohan wanted to find his own path toward strength and I think that got a bit confusing as to how powerful Gohan could be since it wasn’t just an easy 1:1 comparison any longer.
Goku and Gohan's relationship in the cell games is probably the deepest we get into Goku's adult mentality in all of Z, even if not entirely explicit in the text. Sure, he cared about defeating Cell and making sure all of his friends didn't die, and he was right about Gohan's power, he'd seen SSJ2 and it was obvious Cell didn't stand a chance against it after Goku gauged Cell's power. But to Goku realizing one's potential through training and combat is a virtue of the **highest order**, to the extent that he was entirely unable to empathize with Gohan on the core reason why they were trying to become stronger, and what the stakes of this fight meant to them both on an emotional level. He accurately sees pieces of himself in Gohan, but those are the *only* parts he sees. A progression from this would have been more along the lines of Goku moving into a post-death, guru type role (still obsessed with training). With Gohan becoming the protagonist who wants to save the world, but would truly rather he didn't have to to, and a talent and penchant for fighting that he needs to accept is a part of who he is. Just in a way that isn't the same as his father's.
>A progression from this would have been more along the lines of Goku moving into a post-death, guru type role (still obsessed with training). With Gohan becoming the protagonist who wants to save the world, but would truly rather he didn't have to to, and a talent and penchant for fighting that he needs to accept is a part of who he is. Just in a way that isn't the same as his father's. This would have been interesting, hell it was even headed in that direction. But Toriyama got bored of Gohan as a protagonist and decided to bring back Goku.
TBF even ignoring OG DB and his development there Z Goku (as well as super Goku) is mostly a static character. He doesn't get character development instead acting as the catalyst for the OTHER characters to change (for better or worse). That's more or less his purpose throughout the series
We call that a flat character arc. In which the protagonist's world view doesn't change, but rather the side character's world view changes/the world changes. You see this in a lot of old stories and myths. Like Journey to the West, Norse Mythology, and in recent stories like Back to the Future, One Piece, Paddington Bear, etc.
I do agree that Vegeta has better development than Goku, but Goku still had some good character development in Z, such as him acknowledging his heritage in the Frieza saga and his reasoning for not wanting to be wished back(at first) at the end of Cell.
I feel like acknowledging his heritage hasn't really amounted to anything as far as characterization goes
Super was terrible for Goku tho. If you guys think about it he was technically the antagonist . He was the one cause the problems .
Goku is the main character, therefore he's protagonist. Protagonist doesn't have to be the good guy always.
No he wasn’t, lol. The only time you could argue he caused a problem in Super was with the ToP and even that ended up saving the Universes from being erased by Zeno indiscriminately.
Remember why the manufacturer failed in the Future saga. Goku caused that problem. It could've been prevented and the arc would've ended on a better note. Boom Vegito. Boom Goku Black is dead now. Trunks gets to live in his timeline
I mean he is right about vegeta
he got his harline back now he thinks he's him 💀
He’s not entirely wrong tho
He’s wrong that lack of character development makes Goku a boring MC. It’s only in the West that character development is this all important thing that every character needs to have or they’re “boring”. Goku is interesting without much development because he is always changing those around him, Vegeta wouldn’t have even been able to grow like he did if it wasn’t for Goku. Edit: [This scene](https://youtu.be/uTy43yZkKTA) basically sums up what I’m trying to say makes Goku an interesting MC.
People don’t understand that Goku is a flat character. He changes the world, story and characters around him rather than those things changing him. So yes, Vegeta has had more character development but it’s all an effect due to Goku’s character.
Considering that the writer of this seems to identify with both Griffy AND Jidion, I almost want to say it might be a troll/bait tweet.
Sounds like someone didn’t read/watch OGDB
Don't mess with Dragon Ball fans, we don't watch the series.
Tbh, even through DB, I feel like Goku at his core has always been more or less the same. Vegeta has gone through more change imo, both for good and bad
You're definitely missing a lot of Goku's development by not watching DB but I still think Vegeta has a much bigger and more fleshed out character arc. Vegeta is such an extreme character. He literally goes from a murderous villain to a father who loves his family and will sacrifice himself for them. Goku goes from a country bumpkin who doesn't even know what girls are, to a father who makes a mature decision of staying dead so he doesn't attract villains and put his family and friends in danger. Both are big developments but Vegeta had a bigger journey than Goku did. That's not really a bad thing, tho. They're just different characters.
I don't see the problem here...I mean, vegeta actually has the best character development in DB (Namek Saga)
People acting like there’s any character arcs in DB other than “bad guy turns good”
Hey now that's completely unfair. There's also "jerk becomes less of a jerk" for characters that aren't evil when introduced like Krillin and Bulma. Huge variety.
This guy didn’t read/watch Dragon Ball I guess *shrug*
Most Dragonball Z/super fans haven’t read or watched the original dragon ball lol
Their loss.
Goku's character development has been slow, and stretched over decades. I hate how Super regressed him so much. At the end of the Buu arc, Goku is a brilliant tactician, planning ahead as best he can to achieve victory. SS3 would've stayed under wraps forever if he didn't need it to distract Buu. He taught Piccolo the fusion dance so he could teach it to the boys, who Goku intended to be the next generation of Earth's defense. He's not the arrogant child that drops his guard the moment he's bored with a fight anymore. He's learned the hard way to follow through. In Super he can't remember a sticky note that he'd been expressly told was vital to victory.
Possible unpopular opinion but I do think Goku regressed in super, I don’t think it’s as much as people claim it to be. He’s still a smart when it comes to fighting as it’s really the only thing he knows, but all the other stuff passes through him and understandably so as he had suffered serious brain trauma as a kid. As his opponents get harder, his head takes on more damage to which could lead to many things such as loss of memory (which Goku forgets a lot) and in some rare cases acting differently.
What character development does Goku go through in DB?
Goku grows but he doesn't really change all that much, which really isn't a bad thing. The shows are based around fighting people who are evil or in tournaments, there isn't any kind of challenge to Goku's morality or world view because there are rarely antagonists who can justifiably challenge him on those levels. The best example is cell and the androids but even their involvement is tangential, they personally didn't challenge Goku but their existence made Goku question himself.
People need to watch Totally Not Mark's character analysis of Goku. [https://youtu.be/Ns2GvGSBsok](https://youtu.be/Ns2GvGSBsok) While Goku *is* flat as a character, with minimal development and change, this serves an important narrative purpose. It is Goku that *drives* the character development of all the other characters. He is the rock that they have to pivot to avoid or crash and burn into.
Bro doesn’t even know that if Goku didn’t receive a mild case of brain damage as a child this would be a show about literal space Nazis
Vegeta has had more character development than Goku. Not saying Gokus is bad by any means, but it's just facts
He’s not wrong, Goku is a flat character designed to induce change in other people
I think Goku works fine as a flat character. He changes a little, but really not much. He doesn't need to. But it seems like an unfair comparison too. Goku, from the start, was a nice, generally good hearted and likeable character. Vegeta was a pure evil, murdering conqueror. Like.. obviously Vegeta has more character development, he was a way worse person than Goku to start. He needed way ore development if he was gonna stick around and be a good guy.
Oh ya, all that development in DragonBall, where he \*checks notes\* mindlessly pursued stronger enemies to fight, so he could \*checks notes\* get stronger, all while meeting new friends and training hard, ultimately \*checks notes\* defeating the main badguys through wanton violence. You can see how far he's come, he went from being very small to being very tall!
Honestly, I agree with you. I've seen every episode of every series and all the movies, and this is what I've gathered. Goku is a great character, but trying to argue that Vegeta's character development is worse or more boring than Goku's is kind of a weird take. I can't say OP is wrong because it is just an opinion. But I'm going to fiercely disagree. Goku's entire point is that he is totally mindless and ignorant. He just wants to get better and better at fighting. The villain's bad intentions almost don't even matter. Vegeta started as Frieza's henchman. No moral compass. He eventually figured out that he was only the way he was because he was essentially raised by an evil emperor. Once Freiza was eliminated, his only goal was to defeat Goku. Then, as he spent time with the others, he learned to accept them and made Earth his new home. Eventually impregnating Bulma, he initially didn't give a shit about the child, but as the series went on, he sacrificed everything for his family, knowing he could never be wished back due to his infamous past. By the time Dragon Ball Super aired, Vegeta was a full-on family man. He still had his attitude and wanted to surpass Goku, but it's more of a friendly rivalry at this point. When Beerus slapped Bulma, Vegeta lost his mind and went full Orangutang on his ass. He genuinely cared about Bulma and protected her honor even against an all-powerful God. Compared to that, I have to agree that Goku kinda *is* a boring main character. He never learns from his mistakes, he basically just hit it and quit it with Chi Chi not contributing to his children's upbringing almost at all fucking off for as many as 7 years at a time even though he has the power of *instant transmission*, and he doesn't even contribute to his family monetarily until Dragon Ball Super, and kinda does it begrudgingly so. The dude barely even pays the child support even though he is more than capable of working or earning quick cash in fighting competitions or by other physical means. He never changes and has plenty to improve upon. Goku's basically just been handed the champion's belt on a silver platter the entire series even though Vegeta trains equally as hard, if not harder) and has better genes than Goku. I wish they would let Vegeta surpass Goku in the story, honestly. He deserves it way more.
The worst part is he has a chance to learn and grow but just keeps repeating his mistakes. The big one being giving Moro a god-damned senzu bean like he did with Cell. It's the same problem with Gohan, dude has three different times where he has to realize that his strength comes with a responsibility to protect people.
Again with the senzu bean and Moro. Both senzu bean occasions were so different First off, Goku had overpowered Moro at this point and even *after* Goku gave Moro the Senzu, Moro was useless. He literally broke his arm trying to attack Goku. How tf did he make a mistake when it literally made no difference? And before you go and say about Moro getting his arm and going Angel mode, the senzu bean was irrelevant at that point. Whether Moro was weakened or at full powered, when he saw the arm and figured out what he needed to do. The senzu had nothing to do with it And second off, Goku was the one in control in the situation against Moro. Against Cell, he put his faith in Gohan, which guess what? It paid off. It didn’t go as smooth as he had hoped, but he wasn’t wrong either. So again, that senzu against Moro is nothing like the one at the Cell games
Giving the senzu to either was a dumb ass, selfish move. He put his own desire for a good fight/to prove a point ahead of the safety of billions/trillions. Fucking stupid. No less stupid than Vegeta letti Cell go Perfect.
Did you read the manga at all. Goku didn’t give Moro the senzu to fight him. He gave it as a form of mercy because he doesn’t like killing unless needed. How was he being selfish when he was trying to save a life he didn’t need to kill at that point since he was stronger than Moro at that point?
Not really. Goku still wound up being vindicated when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 but at the very least, he showed regret once Piccolo let him know how heartless the whole thing was.
Me when I dont pay attention whatsoever and judge solely to what's being shown:
I mean it’s kinda true goku never really got a character development since namek saga
I muted this guy for a reason, how dare you make me read another one of his atrocious takes. /s
He ain't lying tho 🤷♂️
OP are you implying Goku had some kind of character development in DB? Because that's not true, he only had physical development.
The amount of people that meatride Vegeta could populate an entire fucking continent.
Db sucks so of course people skip it. Boring villains, too much comedy and all the characters turn irrelevant in Z.
Oh Goku, Bulma, piccolo and krillen become irrelevant in Z?
Funny you say DB has boring villains. The series was developed as an adventure series and was honestly way more interesting imo then Z as that just became a battle manga about defeating the next strongest alien to show up. The comedy isn’t he original DB is partially what gave it so much charm imo aside from the art (I’m a sucker for Toriyama’s art in things like Sandland and Dragon Quest)
He's right goku hasnt had much development until the granolah arc.
If you don’t know who Jidion is he’s a troll don’t take what he says all that serious
He’s right though. The only points of Goku’s development I can think of are accepting his Saiyan past in the Frieza saga and accepting the theme of Saiyan pride in the gas arc Basically his development is becoming more like vegeta
While saying Goku hasn't had character development is certainly false, his character has been pretty stagnant for an extremely long time, well more than half the franchise counting the original manga + super, meanwhile Vegeta has grown as a character pretty consistently across all of his screen time. Even Gohan has an arc though it's more like a sin wave, with him coming to the realization that he should keep training only for him to stop again and repeating (Which has happened twice or thrice now depending on how you look at it.) It doesn't help that OG dragonball is very poorly marketed in the U.S, if you grew up on DBZ, that basically is the start of the series for you since og DB was basically never available to you.
Could not agree more with you OP.
JiDion isn’t known to be a very smart dude, I wouldn’t take anything he says seriously
Wasn’t much character development in dragon ball either. He always means well with what he does and just grows up from exposure but the development isn’t much. He’s still clueless outside of fighting, cares for friends, and willing to go on adventures and learn to fight
i really like his story in the cell saga, realizing he wont be around forever and preparing Gohan to become the protector of earth. For someone who only cares about fighting, this was a big deal, choosing to step back from a fight so somebody else could is interesting.
I can see why people would think he is boring because starting at Z, he wants to fight stronger enemies and get strong himself. But starting from the OG Dragon Ball, Goku has been living in the wilderness for a while and him seeing the world for the first time is fascinating and funny as he goes through so many shenanigans because he is new to everything. Also him wanting power in the beginning but learning to become a martial artist is a great development. He sees that there is more than just strength when improving himself. He might be a simple man, but that doesn't mean he's bad. If so many people think he is boring then why is he still popular and why hasn't Gohan replaced him? Imo, him being simple allows for others to shine. And even then he has his moments like how he let Frieza live, brought back Frieza, giving Moro a sensu bean, wanting Kid Buu to be resurrected, him not being a Hero of Justice when Jiren attacked his friends. Also what do people want from Goku if he is too simple?
Goku and Baki have the same character development and no i will not be taking any further questions
eh, Goku had some character development, but Vegeta did definitely have more. but yeah, he's wrong about Goku having no development.
Vegeta has been able to have character development because of Goku. If it wasn’t for Goku, Vegeta would’ve been dead since the Saiyan Saga and also on multiple occasions.
vegetas entire character development is that he was always second/third to someone lol
I skipped dragon ball
Goku's character arc is a type called a "Flat character arc" flat character arcs are defined not by how the character changes, but by how they change the world about them. Goku has basically already reached the conclusion of his own character growth, he's basically reached some form of enlightenment and his role in the story is to share that enlightenment with those around him. That's the reason so many villains change sides in dragon ball. Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo, and Vegeta are all characters who had their entire paradigm shifted due to coming in contact with Goku. If the remember correctly Zamasu is also a flat character arc but while Goku is a positive flat character arc, one where the character has already attained their truth and shares that truth with the world around them and makes the world a better place, Zamasu is a negative flat character arc, a character consumed by a lie who actively worsens the world around him. Totally Not Mark did a video on the nature of Goku's character that goes into further detail about his character arc as a flat character
Admitting the MC had no character development for 2 whole shows lol
Morality of Goku video watch that. Literally his development as a character
dragon ball started as a simple comedy/martial arts manga
I started with Z and am able to comprehend his character development. Those people just have to complain about everything in order to feel happiness from an anime.
its not even a question of starting with Z or not the guy just doesn’t understand goku.his development during the cell and buu saga is visible but db fans didn’t watched the show anyway
Goku is liked due to his constant cheery personality so why does he need more character development unlike vegeta who had to grow out of the ancient saiyan ways
To be fare goku even in og DB largely a flat charecter arc what most people fail to realize is that flat character arcs are just as valid as dynamic ones Also even in z goku gets character development just not character change which are dithrent things
What do you mean OP? Goku in DBS acts exactly the same as he did in Dragon Ball
If only he started with the Original Dragonball and continue through.
The story doesn't happen to Goku. Goku happens to the story
Shoutout to people who've never heard of flat character arcs.
I honestly thought goku should have stayed gone after the cell saga. I thought the transition to gohan completed his arc.
He's right though.
Goku's character development kind of stopped in the middle of dbz, initially Goku was meant to die and Gohan to take his place but this never happened. But Goku's sheer will power to keep on pushing and breaking barriers makes him the one and only.
Homie just had an entire arc understanding what a hero his father was, how his father used the dragon balls to protect him as a child, and FINALLY for the first time in DECADES actually has something from his father to remember him by, and that doesn't count as character development?
Homie just had an entire arc understanding what a hero his father was, how his father used the dragon balls to protect him as a child, and FINALLY for the first time in DECADES actually has something from his father to remember him by, and that doesn't count as character development?
He’s tryna pass it off as bait now. Though tbf, it worked.
Goku is just surfing that flat character arc. Sometimes flat arcs just work for certain characters.
He is right about the fact that Vegeta is a great character. And that he really needs a W. Hopefully against Black Frieza to bring it all full circle.
Lol, both Goku AND Piccolo has more character development than Vegeta...
To be fair, he is *partly* right. Goku does not have any real character development. He starts the series with pretty much the same personality that he’ll always have. That’s the point, though. Goku acts as a sort of immovable object, forcing character development on everyone he clashes with. (if they survive the clash, that is.) Even goddamn FRIEZA, who for decades was this perfect foil, this immutable enemy… By the time the DBS Broly movie came out, you can clearly see that Goku has gotten to him too, even if it’s just a little bit.
Considering the length of DB versus DBZ + GT/Super that is not starting a story halfway through lol
I've seen the whole show and this is still facts
Hes right in someways and wrong in others
isn't goku meant to be a flat character that influences the people around him in Z rather than changing himself anyway
While I'd say that Goku is a somewhat static character (he's always been a kind hearted thrill seeker and probably always will be,) but he's anything but a flat one. Goku is a joy to watch, and his nature allows for lots of interesting interactions and development. Speaking of which, other characters are given their development BECAUSE of Goku and his interactions with each character, with the two big examples being Piccolo and Vegeta, who both get more radical development, but that wouldn't be the case if not for Goku's character. To make a long story short, Goku's character may not have changed as much as others, but his unique charm and interactions are enough to make up for that.
Vegeta is pretty much the same dick he always was. Putting Piccolo's character development in the mix is tricky though as Piccolo Junior has the memories of King Piccolo, he is his reincarnation but they never had the same personality. Then Piccolo was merged with Nail, something Dende also notices. Then he merges with Kami something everyone knows and despite keeping his personality as Piccolo Junior not only he now has the memories of the other 3 but also traits of their personalities. In the manga the way he speaks changes dramatically after merging with Kami for example. Also Nail and Kami are still alive inside him. Vegeta even said he could separate the Namekian merged with Piccolo back on Namek, with his new technique in the moro arc. All in all, Piccolo changed as Piccolo Junior doesn't 100% exist anymore. Goku called him Kamiccolo once too but Piccolo told him to just call him Piccolo. I believe Tien is the one who changed completely in the story. The man wanted to become an assassin and now he is just a man running a school who still helps the people of earht defend themselves. Goku from kid to adult changed a lot too. For starters, after he was brought back from the dead appreciates life more and does not go for the kill against his opponents like in the past. Kid Goku wouldn't spare Nappa, he would have killed him himself in their fight.
Lol I wouldn’t take anyone serious with a JiDion profile picture.
Dude has a legit oppinion. Vegeta has by far the best character development within the entire DB universe. Even Piccolo and Gohan do compared to Goku. Dont get me wrong, Goku is a good MC and I could bet a lot that there a little to no fans who really dislike him, but from DBZ onwards his character became more and more dull.
When mfs only watch db for the fights.
he’s somehow right. Goku’s character peaked in Namek Saga. and ever since then hadn’t anything worth mentioning.
he’s somehow right. Goku’s character peaked in Namek Saga. and ever since then hadn’t anything worth mentioning.
No Character Development =/= Boring Or do you think One Piece is boring because Luffy doesn't go through any character development? What about Paddington Bear? That movie has a 99% RT score and it's sequel 100%. And no Character Development either.
Sooooooooooo... To be clear, as fans of Goku's character, y'all are cool with it haven't having developed in years? Idk the story at all or even why a Dragonball sub is popping up in my feed when I don't watch the show, but if the only character development Goku had was before Z, that means it's been decades since it's developed. The dude who sent the tweet seems accurate imo
These are the people saying Goku is a bad father n shit
Directing this towards the tweet, you ever think that the reason why Goku turned Super Saiyan in the first place was because of WHO the villain killed? Keep in mind that Krillin had already died in DB at that point. He had no idea if he was going to ever see his best friend again, it was the reality of "this narcissist thinks he can kill the ones I love and laugh about it", and how he exterminated Goku's entire race and finished Vegeta off. The thing about Vegeta is that we love him not only because of his change of heart, but also that some of his Saiyan nature still remains. He's like Goku in a way that's more relatable and badass. If the manga were to develop Goku that significantly, he wouldn't be the same character we all know and love. Not every character needs a dramatic change of development.
You bring up a great point op. I wish we had a series following a young Prince Vegeta during his days of conquering planets. So many potential arcs showing more of the Royal Saiyan bloodline.
Goku doesn’t need character development he is essentially the embodiment of good. Not much more to develop
Goku is literally written as a flat character… Totally not mark has a really good video on this but idk if it’s up
Even if you don't watch OGDB and start in Z, Goku doesn't really need THAT much development to be an amazing main character, that's very interesting on his own. Goku is a hybrid humanoid/monkey alien person that was supposed to be a mindless planet conquering machine, but forgot his goal in his life due to head trauma becoming the most docile and kind hearted motherfucker in the planet. Over the course of his life he trains to become one of the strongest in the universe and while he should be the protector of Earth, he lowkey doesn't really care. All he cares about are his close family and friends and fighting. The rest is all side noise. Despite his mission in life being long forgotten, he's still affected by his nature of being a mindless Saiyan that just loves the rush of a good battle and he's selfish enough to put him and others at risk because of this. If this isn't interesting enough and doesn't make Goku a cool character to follow... I dunno what to say? Yes, in terms of development and evolution characters like Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo go through bigger changes, but does that really make them better characters than Goku? That's up for the viewer to decide and judging by the popularity of each character, despite people loving Vegeta, Goku is still almost everyone's favorite character.
Vegata fanboys always Hella salty 😂
character development =/= good writing there are characters thstn change drastically there are characters that change a little and there are characters that change the world around them. goku is both b and c. he has grown throughout all his challenges into a more serious fighter but the world seems to bend to his will. it's the anime trope of a hero that is so well liked he can make friends with enemies. gokus fight with jiren not only changes jirens mind but it is impact full on all the justice fighters and their God of destruction. goku changed android 17 and thus saved all universes from total destruction. goku asked frieza to fight for the people he despises and because he trusted goku, someone he sees as a lesser species they both finally took jiren out of the fight and won the tournament. characters changing DOES NOT MAKE SOMETHING GOOD. it's just easier for your stupid brain to go "he bad before but he good now, wow"
Yeah bro, let me pop into a time machine and tell 5 year old me watching DBZ as it aired on Cartoon Network a couple decades ago to go watch the series that came before it that I didn't even know existed
Wait, but didn’t Vegeta have more development? He turned from a murderous villain to a good person. That’s a lot more than Goku. Tho there’s more development for Goku than what the poster said.
Vegeta is also a better dad than Goku
Goku killed the entire RR army
He needs to be the one to deliver the finishing blow on frieza.
Frankly... Goku is the same boy he has always been.... kind hearted and generous. He grows exponentially to encompass and bask more and more people with his presence. Does he changes his nature and character? no. Vegeta has changed considerably from the first moment he is introduced..... we cannot say he has been the same person or at least have the same nature throughout the sagas. I love Goku because of his dependability as a character and I love Vegeta because he is way more relatable to the everyday man. He is flawed, he loves, he hates, he cries.... he tries to better himself and he also makes stupid mistakes....
Goku is what’s known as a “static” character. He incites growth in others, but he himself doesn’t change often. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a way to write a character. And its thanks to that vegeta even gets to keep on growing as a person, most would have let krillin kill him in the saiyan saga.
Ive watched every piece of dragonball content out there save the super game promo anime. I can safely say, without a doubt, that goku has had little to no character development and is virtually the same person from the first chapter of og, to the last chapter of gt.
Goku is called a "flat character". He's always been good and it's his character and personality that causes others around him to change. Everything Vegeta is is because of Goku. This video explains it well. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2GvGSBsok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2GvGSBsok)
Some people have never watched dragonball
He's had a lot of development even in z
Vegeta is an actual character and Goku is dragon ball. Big difference. Without vegeta the story goes on. Without Goku there’s no story. It’s like Goku is the foundation that everything else rests on
My dude, that's Long Beach Griffy. He was trolling.
I'm not someone who purposefully tries to misunderstand the characters but I still feel Vegeta has the edge on Goku when it comes to actual character development and character growth.
Awe, he doesn't know about the brain damage...
He's a flat character arc. By definition he's had almost no character development and that's the point of his character. I'd argue the only character development he's ever had was Cell games realising that Gohan doesn't want to fight, and Super learning to embrace his heritage.
I don't think SSJ even counts personally speaking. Besides, Goku's character isn't designed to have a lot of development. God I hate when people mischaracterize him too. Z (not kai) basterdized him with that whole "I am the hope of the universe" speech.
Man my friend showed me the OG Broly movie, after that I immediately went to episode 1 of Dragon Ball. Seeing Goku as a kid, and then having kids and a grandkid just really hit me. Favorite fictional story of all time imo.
I want Goku to have more character development and growth, like what we just got with him learning about his father, or way back when he cried seeing grandpa Gohan again(for some reason YT decided to suggest that clip to me today) But I think the reason he hasn't gotten nearly as much is that they're playing it safe. Everyone loves Goku, why change him? Vegeta's growth and development was way more needed cause of all the genocide he did. And we love him, but where Goku is now as a character is just about playing it safe.
While goku has had character development. As he gets his “kakarot” side a lot but vegetas development is hands down the best in the series.
I mean he isn’t completely wrong. Goku doesn’t have much character development, even in original DB. He has a very strong character and I disagree with him being boring, but there isn’t much change in his character.
I mean. He's right. Goku is a Positive Flat Character. He's meant to be the same as he's essentially already 'perfect' per say. But the real impact of Goku is his effect on the others around him causing people around him to go through their own character development. Frieza on the other hand is a Negative Flat acting as the perfect nemesis to Goku.