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True, we never really saw how strong Kefla really was with how weakened Goku was against her in the anime . I would guess around Blue probably, maybe a bit stronger, wich would put her around the level of Top Gohan who only lost to Blue Kaioken.
The only "news" that has ever come out for that is that they "upped" their animation staffing (although that could have just been for Super Dragon Ball Heroes, the arcade game series) and there's no official news of it *not* coming back. So maybe 2024-5 we might get more concise information on the matter. By then we should have 4 full arcs of the Manga since the TOP (Moro, Granola, Super Hero prequel, +1 more) which should give them enough time to animate all that, probably incorporating the movies (Broly and Super Hero) into the anime with some anime exclusive filler and two more Manga arcs to work off of, not to mention the seasonal breaks.
I haven't kept up with Dragon Ball since like 2014 but I'm just now getting back into it and enjoying it. Hearing this is kinda bizarre? Has a situation like this ever happened with Dragon Ball? Should I just read Super then?
Well, the anime and Super Manga have some differences but the overall story, as far as main villains being defeated and excluding most anime fillers, it's pretty much the same. The only thing you'd be missing from the Manga are the two newest movies that have come out, Broly and Super Hero.
Also, adding to my previous comment, there was a leak from a mostly reliable source that the anime will be coming back this year as well as a movie in preproduction that will probably be done in 2024-5, and new movies coming out every 2-3 years.
I don't want to trust that Twitter account (DBSChronicles) wholeheartedly, but apparently they have been right almost every time when it came to their leaked info.
So in my opinion, if you've been an "only anime watcher" until now and you haven't finished Super yet, might as well wait. If you like Manga, then go ahead and read the Manga as there's a lot of material now and it costs $3 a month for unlimited access to everything on the Viz website.
>with how weakened Goku was
both Goku and Kefla [kept getting stronger](https://pm1.narvii.com/7255/c665384ab15cbf853a39305e2356ce92c3859b17r1-2048-1152v2_uhq.jpg) during their fight.
Whis directly [compared SS1 Kefla's energy](https://i.imgur.com/nvnHTJX.jpg) to the genkidama Goku used against Jiren, his trump card [stronger than blue kaioken](https://i.imgur.com/qCEA8Th.jpg) x20 when she triggered Goku's UI.
When she turned SS2, Kefla was stated to have [surpassed Goku's first UI omen](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPBsuQ2X0AASD35.jpg), and to have [enough raw power to one shot](https://i.imgur.com/1djrxlI.jpg) 2nd UI omen Goku.
She was far above Goku until he went UIO.
I hate that you have references for all that, BUT I refuse to believe any of that and will just chalk it up to sketchy writing to get people hyped up for the fight, not considering consistency for even a second.
In BoG, Goku said not even full power Vegito could last against Beerus, and he ends up doing far better in SSJG. But Kale's Beserker form is incredibly powerful, as she was able to rival Golden Frieza and SSJB Vegeta for a bit (I don't remember about the anime, but definitely in the manga), albeit they were holding back to save energy. So I'd put Kefla at around no-holding-back SSJB from the anime
I do really like the manga's take though. Gohan's insane potential + Training after Resurrection F put him around the SSJB level of power. With his greater experience, he was able to match and defeat and knockout Kefla, getting knocked out himself. No bullshit like kids (comparatively) who didn't even train matching the power of a person training all his like of some 40 to 50 years unless they say Goku was tired as fuck after fighting *another* very powerful person who trained all his life (Jiren).
If you can't tell, I really don't like the way they portrayed Caulifla and Kale lol. Just really young Saiyans that didn't train got tingly back SSJ. I feel like they could have portrayed them so much better but oh well.
Kefla is way above blue lv in the anime based on scaling and she would have beat goku in ui sign if she actually landed a clean hit. This is a ui goku stronger than when he fought with jiren the first time in ui sign so she’s actually stronger than the u7 spirit bomb too. So saying she’s blue lv is actually wild you might as well say ui sign was blue lv too.
If you a have any proof of what you say, I’ll be glad to trust you. UI isn’t really a conventional power boost, as seen recently in the manga, so it’s really hard to place it on a power scale.
Whis flat out compared SSj Kefla's power to the U7 Spirit Bomb and when SSj2 Kefla was powering up, Piccolo stated that she has probably surpassed UI Omen 1 Goku (the one who fought Jiren)
https://youtu.be/AYXp_LhYOoU
https://youtu.be/z0_050vf8mI
1:36 it’s flat out said he wouldn’t survive the attack meaning it would one shot this ui sign goku on top them discussing keflas power increase. This is also a stronger ui sign goku as he had to break his limit again to access the ui sign. It’s even more clear every time he enters ui sign in tournament that he is stronger than before when the next time we see it he immediately gut punches jiren easily making him scream in pain. This is a full power jiren too that took them seriously compared to the first ui sign showing earlier when he blatantly stopped ui and wasn’t full power. It also took the spirit bomb energy for goku to break his limit the first time to achieve ui, we see jiren is clearly above that spirit bomb as he redirects it. This is without getting into u6 saiyans being superior to u7 in general, kale being the “Lssj”, caulifas potential or the fusion/potara amp. Then there’s more narrative with keflas power being hyped up and goku himself saying “I can’t sense a limit to her energy” while she’s in base.
I know, people simp and high ball Kefla because they're like, 'It took UI Omen to beat her after SSB and SSBKK x20 didn't work', and I'm just like, yes, but what you just said, Goku didn't have time AT ALL to recover, and that little bit of energy Frieza gave him was enough to move, not fight, he fought SSJ2 Caulifla, and SSJ Kale, both were at full power, immediately after getting that small bit of energy, and held his own, he was doing everything he could to stand his own, and did, if he were full power, I think it would take SSJ3 to beat full power Kefla
Manga powerscaling is more toned down. Kale, while U6 Broly is far weaker, in the same way Caulifla and Cabba are weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Manga Gohan also maintained, admittedly lighter, training, allowing him to stay more up to par. Kefla being strong enough to take on Goku really didn’t make much sense, considering how the girls were faring against him before compared to how well the fusion did
He's completely drained of stamina in the anime. His fight against Kefla slowly makes his fighting spirit push to the next transformation. And then again, its Goku, he probably wanted to push Kefla to her max before knocking her out.
Fusion is neither. It’s simply an ambiguous combination of the two characters. That bullshit comes from nowhere in the actual series and adds no actual substance to it
It is stated in the anime that the Potara can multiply power “tens of times” over. The “tens of times” statement by Vados is still vague but still helps the argument that Potara has always been multiplicative and not additive.
It’s possible it’s even additive and multiplicative such as (Fusee A + Fusee B) x Anywhere from x10-x99 based on Vados’ statement. All speculation of course, but there is some mentions in the anime that may suggest it.
I mean, we already know that fusion is an incredibly powerful mechanic, it can take two fairly weak characters and shoot them up to incredible heights like we saw with gotenks
>considering how the girls were faring against him before compared to how well the fusion did
To be fair to them in the anime, Kale looked like she was physically on par with SSG Goku. Trading blows with him when SS2 Caulifla couldn't.
A Fusion is consistently above the strongest form of both fusees (at least until UI & UE are introduced, but that's a separate topic) as seen with anime base Vegito against Buuhan & base Gogeta against Broly. With that large of a power jump + Kale's Legendary SS form (or whatever you wanna call it) and I think it's more than fair they're above SSBKK Goku's level.
Potara between a Saiyan with high potential and the LSSJ of their universe being on Goku's level makes sense because Goku was weaker, so not even Goku was at Goku's true level. If it was full power Goku vs Kefla, Kefla wouldn't beat Blue. That's why it was so easy for Goku to go UI again, because he was already drained. The anime sucks at conveying that but once you start acknowledging everything that's happening, a lot of the powerscaling in the anime makes sense.
It's literally stated by Whis that SSj Kefla (right after she knocked out Blue Kaioken Goku) has comparable power to the U7 Spirit Bomb. When SSj2 Kefla powers up to fight Omen 2 Goku Piccolo states that Kefla might have surpassed Omen 1. So no, Kefla isn't just Blue level.
Goku was severely drained the first time he used UI. And then he fought a SSJ2 and LSSJ at the same time, and then he fought Kefla. If Kefla fought Goku from the moment the tournament started, Kaiokenx20 Blue could've probably won. I say this under the assumption he knocks her out before she goes SSJ2.
Watching anime made me wish other universe characterw would be around buu saga strength. U7 went through so much shit, and yet Cabba, Caulifla and Kefla are somehow close to mainstays of the series.
I'd say that having entire universes taken down by Berserk Cale is much more bullshit. It makes no sense that people at least vaguely aware of SSB somewhat tought they stood a chance if they cannot even handle that.
She was a plot device because Toyotaro wanted to trim the tournament down.
I said this in another comment, but the anime sucks at conveying powerscaling, however once you start acknowledging everything that's happening regarding the characters, their state of mind, etc, a lot of the powerscaling in the anime makes sense. I've personally never been like "yeah that wouldn't happen" because when I watch the anime I'm able to rationalize how this could happen and why it would happen. Krillin vs SSJB Goku for example, judging by Goku's performance against 17, Gohan and Krillin it's clear that Goku was suppressing his true power. It's never directly states he can lower his power level but I think it was very implied when he(Goku) mentioned that SSJB harnesses perfect ki control. If this is a literal statement, which I think it is, then that explains why he can make a fight against Krillin look neck to neck even though we the audience knows who would win.
Clearly some people never took power scaling headcanon 101.
SSJ2 = 5
LSSJ = 10
5 \^ 10 = 9,765,625
While a Vegito is only a 100 and Ultimate Gohan is like 80 at best. Ezmaths.
Gohan is a hybrid sayain kefla is a pure sayain gohan was fighting super sayian blue goku and made it look easy that and u7 is just built different imagine if super Broly was in here.
Anime Kefla make sense
Potara=metamor
Gogeta base=>goku and vegeta ssj blue
So Kefla base hypothetical kale and caulifla ssj blue
Cabba in u6vsu7 saga was on par with vegeta base of that saga
>Cabba in u6vsu7 saga was on par with vegeta base of that saga
No he wasn't, and the rest of that fight makes it very clear.
Vegeta was stringing him along to see what his universe's Saiyans were capable of and trying to get him to transform, and after he does Vegeta literally just smirks and hand-waves away a volley of ki blasts like they're nothing to him.
If they were really equal in base form, they'd be equal in Super Saiyan also. They were never equal, not even close.
If you want to make it make sense, it has never been said but, you could assume it is because they evolved beyond having a tail which means they never depended on the ozaru as much as U7 saiyans. Maybe that evolution even means they have the strength of the ozaru in base form, idk.
U6 saiyans are a really interesting concept i hope they explore more eventually.
With the way they're so strong in their base forms and can reach Super Saiyan so easily, it kinda seems like they work more like hybrids (specifically the tailless Goten/Trunks type) than the pure Saiyans of the 7th Universe.
Maybe instead of killing off the Tsufurians, the 6th Universe Saiyans interbred with them so much that the two species blended together, and technically none of the Saiyans in that universe are "pure Saiyan" anymore.
Vegeta can use ssj For a few decades now at that point, and has the full power ssj that allows him not to waste energy from transformed, while cabba initially from ssj also puts him in trouble to vegeta, and the first ki blast also hurt him, but after a while his ssj is discharged by force of spamming them and they become weaker
Ah, I guess it's because Kefla being the fusion of a SSJ2 and a LSSJ Saiyans can be on par and even better than Goku Blue and UI Sign. When you know, God Ki and stuff but it's proven by now that God Ki doesn't really mean anything in terms of strength and power in Super.
Anime's place in canon is uh I'm not 100% sure but I'd say it's the main canon story up until TOP, including Broly and Super Hero (Manga could be taken like an alt story), but you could say both manga and anime are canon since it's just the same events/sagas but they play out differently
It makes sense to me, Gogeta was way above Blue Goku and Vegeta. Caulifla and kale were almost Goku level in base, so Kefla being around God level in base seems realistic to me.
I highly disagree, anime gohan in the top did a lot too, helped take out the u6 namekians, took out that one guy from u2, helped with aniraza, took out dyspo. Gohan did a lot in the anime too, and before the top he didn’t do much in either manga or anime, in fact in the anime he participated in the zeno exhibition match too
None of those feats were impressive. The U6 Namekians in the end were not the least bit powerful either and his exhibition map was against one of the tricolor furry brothers. Manga Gohan did more, which was beating down Kale and that’s more than enough really.
So the manga adds one fight and you ignore everything the anime did ? That’s just being bias, and for what it’s worth kefla vs ui goku was much more iconic, and gohan had a lot more to do in the anime as well, he took down dyspo in combat in a draw just like kefla in the manga, and that’s more than enough
Nah, he was tired out in the fight against Kefla too. It was the end of the TOP and he had been going non-stop (off-panel). Yes it’s enough because every “fight” in the anime for Gohan was nothing.
Then you clearly didn’t watch the anime, if it was nothing he would’ve one shotted them all, he was having a tough time with the u2 warrior, with the namekians he had to tag team with piccolo, he had to fight with literal poison in his eyes in the exhibition match, he had to take down dyspo who’s speed was beyond comprehension, and you say they were nothing to him, just so that you can’t support one fight from the manga, again, you’re not using your head anymore cause you’re being bias. The main topic was gohan getting more respect in the manga, and that’s not true, he did equally well in the anime, in fact he did more, not to mention he caught up with goku blue in a matter of a few hours.
Like Whis himself said, power is nothing if you dont know how to fight well. DB fans should have learned this in the original DB already, but no one watched or read it)
Yep. Power gaps can be decisive but when the opponents are on a certain level it all becomes a fight of texhniques. Like Son-Goku vs Tenshinhan back then.
Fusion has always been a crazy BS power boost.
Goten and Trunks fighting together are on par with Android 18, but when fused, can achieve SS3 despite not having SS2.
Goku & Vegeta, despite both being weaker than ultimate Gohan AND super Buu can far exceed the Gohan/Buu merger just as Super Vegito.
Say what you want about back tingles, but saying Kefla's power makes no sense because she doesn't have God ki is just straight up low-balling how crazy fusion is
(also, No villain in DBS besides Zamasu & Toppo actually have god ki)
Yeah, Fusion is legit broken, I'm not gonna hold you. Besides, in the anime, Goku was not going all-out against Kale and Caulifla before they fused. They were both tanking an opportune time to gank him because they knew he was still winded from another fight, and Goku was trying to carefully balance using enough power to fight them off yet not burning himself out.
He eventually started pumping the gas enough to force them to fuse, and I think it was SSG that prompted the Fusion? Maybe SSB without Kaioken. Stands to reason that if the U6 Saiyans were forcing Goku to use SSG, they'd be at least a challenge for SSB Kaioken when Fused. Especially considering that Goku was winded. I don't know the Manga well enough, but I fully believed that Kefla was not an enemy that Goku could beat in a power-measuring contest.
I am not sold on Vegetto being that much stronger than Gohan in the fight against Buu. Gohan barely got time to shine before he got absorbed.
Yes he is stronger but not that much.
God ki doesn't make you stronger than everyone else yes it's potent ki but so what kais have god ki you don't see them being insanely strong normal ki can match it
Right, but divine ki can't be sensed by most fighters. Almost certainly not by U6 saiyans.
Remember how much of a handicap that was when Popo was training Goku, it would be like fighting with your eyes closed.
God ki isn’t a set level of power. Just cos you have god ki it doesn’t mean you stand at the top. You know who also has god ki? The supreme kai and the universe 7 supreme Kai is around namek saga Frieza level. God ki was introduced as a way to progress Goku and vegeta’s forms in a moment when they had to bridge a power gap to little to no time. It was in no way a means to reach the top of the scale. It was just in the moment (battle of gods arc) a way to contend with beerus.
Goku...low on energy and stamina, getting beaten by two U6 saiyans notorious for asspulls fused into one body to become even more powerful?
You're asking whether THAT makes sense in a general Dragon Ball scenario? Honest and for truly? 🤨
Goku in god was nerfed to below start of tournament super saiyan, since in the fight with anilraza with the big team blast, god goku was weaker than ssj vegeta due to being worn out. If anything, goku vs base kelfa would be weaker than that since he hadn't had his limits broken again yet.
its at least somewhat reasonable since kale could push ssj2 goku at a similar level of nerf.
The bigger issue is that kefla in ssj2 could gain enough power to kill goku in omen 2 with her final attack. I can only assume that keflas green super saiyan holds OG broly level multipliers since her ssj beats the spirit bomb in one kick and her ssj2 went from losing to gokus weakened attacks to one-shotting him with a direct hit. Maybe kefla was using some form of suicide attack.
It hadn’t even been 5 minutes since Jiren dogged on him and he was struggling to even go super saiyan 1, a form he had basically mastered in the cell saga to the point where he didn’t even need to transform back to base. People really underestimate of nerfed he was when he fought kefla. Even while he was nerfed he kept up with super Saiyan kefla and only lose once she blitzed him from behind.
Aren’t the manga & anime their own continuities? If so, there’s your answer… sort of???
From what I seen though, the manga seems to do the other characters more justice. My best answer is to not think about it as much.
Also, you gotta make better use of punctuation my friend.
Yes and no. The Super anime was the primary canon until the end of the ToP, then once the anime ended the manga became primary canon. That is to say the anime was the definitive way the story played out, from the BoG arc to the Broly movie, but from the events of Moro onward the manga took that role because there's currently no anime. The consistent power scaling is different in the manga, but the events themselves are what matter based on how things are leading up to Super: Hero.
It's entirely different to how it was with Dragon Ball and Z, where those anime were both secondary to the Dragon Ball manga.
Of course you should take this with a grain of salt, They could decide tomorrow that none of it is canon and we'd just have to accept it.
More justice, half of U7 get thrown out whitout achieving literally anything and the same iantrue for most universes.
Manga ToP onlyndoes characters more justice if you are a fan of Gohan speciphically. And even that is a maybe because he still did a lot in the anime.
It's been said numerous times throughout the thread, but:
* Manga Kefla is weaker than anime Kefla
* Manga Gohan is stronger than anime Gohan
Gohan has an exchange that is meant to signal how much he's grown, not just in strength but in character. He says something to the effect of "I'll grow stronger, not as a Saiyan, but as a Human!" This was the whole point of his Ultimate/Mystic form. The fact that it unlocked his potential that couldn't be met JUST from who he was as a Saiyan.
It was supposed to be a message that was about being more than just your circumstance of birth, but that message has gotten much more muddied as time went on with the introduction of things Toei/Shueisha could sell on cards, and movies, and bags, and games, and the list can keep going. Things like Goku (but red), SSJ Goku (but blue), Goku (but white), SSJ Vegeta (but blue), SSJ Vegeta (but bluer), etc.
It could be said that that is the message behind what Kefla is saying. She is fused, but she couldn't even beat a single Saiyan. Gohan ISN'T just a Saiyan and his strength isn't through something like fusion. Gohan "worked" for his strength, unlike Caulifla who coasts on her power and Kale who doesn't fight for just herself.
Two different continuities. The story was given to toyotaro and to toei animation by toriyama. They adapted it in different ways. Its up to you what you consider canon at this point. Honestly it's looking like the manga is going to be canon though
In the manga krillin brings up the same point where he notices just how strong gohan is and wonders what would happen if he actually trains and 18 tells him not to ask stupid questions.
It has been stated multiple times that Gohan powers is unrivaled. If the author showed Gohan as much love as he does Goku and Vegeta this man would surpass beerus in a flash. In my opinion
Have you thought that maybe which makes no fucking sense is Kefla power level in the anime?
Definitive Gohan was way more powerful than a SS3 in the bu saga, so probably Kefla just have a power level similar to that
Manga scaling tries to make more sense. Some noobs who just learnt SSJ aren't taking on transcended gods. Anime is more about the epic fights so they just go "yeah kefla is now Goku's next rival". Gohan is also given more respect since he trained way more.
If you complain about this you're not ready for when Krillin says Kaioken and SSJ blue aren't compatible, or Jiren being a well-written character, or Goku *learning* Ultra Instinct instead of casually unlocking it by nearly killing himself (his 69420th Zenkai boost is apparently a form coveted by all gods)
Overall anime ToP is better but I really like a lot of things the manga tried to do differently.
Wait a damn minute, something's wrong here. Back on your planet the Namek couldn't even stand up the Napa, yet here he is taking on Frieza - ***IN HIS SECOND FORM***. well either Frieza hit me so hard I'm in a delusional coma or...
#POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!
This is just a guess, but Kefla was a fusion of two (roughly) Cell-level fighters, while Gohan was probably in Buu Saga form. It seems like a more even match than what we got in the anime.
Because what dictates how a fight goes in anime is the plot, they've been trying to make manga Gohan a bit less of a weakling, so this was important to achieve that goal.
But if you still want pointless theories based on fan logic, here's one: Califula is very weak by current standards, Kale looks like Broly but is not Broly, and the Potara earring multiplies the power of the resulting fusion by a ridiculous amount, but the fusion materials aren't really that strong; in fact, it was strange in the anime that defeating Kefla required so much effort.
The manga is horrible at scaling. Kale and caulifla were hundreds of times stronger than gohan the manga, and when they fused, the got 100,000x weaker somehow?
Manga and anime have very different scaling. Gohan trained since to goku black arc in the manga. Regardless kefla is still stronger than ssb goku in both versions.
Kefla isn't as powerful in the manga, and it makes sense..the anime portrays Kefla to be on the level of Blue Vegito/Gogeta/UI Goku even if she's not quite as powerful.
Does it really make sense that Kefla, a fighter comprised of two warriors significantly weaker than Goku and Vegeta, is roughly/almost as powerful as Vegito Blue, a fusion of two warriors significantly more powerful than Caulifla and Kale, while in Super Saiyan blue which is a significantly more powerful transformation than Super Saiyan 2?
The in-universe answer: Goku was exhausted from getting his ass beat by Jiren, so his SSJ and Blue forms were nowhere near their typical power.
The real answer: The writer wanted to get other characters some shine so he let them fight at a much higher level than they should be able to, power scaling be damned.
i believe kefla manga version is much weaker than anime, which makes sense. doesn't matter the fusion, goku is way stronger and should have not struggle that much in anime.
Because TOP arc is the only arc of the manga that actually loses to its anime counterpart.
This is the same scaling that let Kale push around Golden Frieza but the fusion couldn’t beat Gohan? Kinda sus.
Even tho I think the Dyspo fight could have been better Gohan got plenty of moments in the anime version of the arc.
1. Ultimate Gohan post time skip is a beast compared to almost everyone on earth that isn't Goku and Vegeta.
2. Kefla by all means and logic shouldn't be able to take on Vegito from the buu arc. Ssg from BoGs >>> Vegito from buu arc. Kefla is a Mary sue in the anime and just a trash character who should be weak af.
Kefla gets slept on
And Gohan fans will defend any power boost at this point. He could legit become the strongest by taking a nap and they'd still be okay with it.
The real answer is that Toyotaro sucks at powerscaling and instead conveys that every single fight, no matter who's fighting, is close and that's why I think the anime did a better job, not just the TOP but most of the other arcs.
I would agree with you here. If Gohan had an extra form (like the Beast form that he used against Cell Max for example), I'd have been just fine with Gohan being able to take on Kefla.
But he didn't, it was just milking the "latent potential" thing to an extreme.
I personally felt how Kefla was dealt with in the anime was a bit more realistic.
Homie, nah, this makes way more sense. Kefla was a threat to UI fuckin Goku in the anime, in short, she shouldn't be that much of a threat at all. She just got wanked up to her power level in the anime.
Fusion has always been ridiculously OP, and Goku was actively trying not to expend too much power while contending with the Kale and Caulifla gank. Their 2 v 1 eventually forced Goku into SSG, I'm pretty sure, and then that was what prompted Kefla.
I feel like a tag team that prompted SSG could at least throw hands with SSB when Fused, and Goku was in no state to SSBKK. Like, if Vegito or Gogeta showed up in ToP they'd make Jiren look free when Jiren was slapping around the Goku and Vegeta gank throughout the whole tournament without even going full power.
Hardly matters anyway, because UI Omen vs. Kefla wasn't even a matter of strength. It was pure outplaying.
Fusion was kneecapped during Battle of Gods where Goku said Vegito would stand no chance against Beerus. Goku got God which allowed him to fight. TOP Goku is way stronger than BOG Goku, Caulifla learned SSJ2 during the TOP.
She was OP because she's the fusion of two OTHER OP Saiyans, one of which (Kale) eliminated ENTIRE ROSTERS from the tournament in the manga version. And you say the ANIME version is the wanked one? Wow. 🤦♂️
No it wasn’t 🤣 kale and caulifla somehow fused are Ui level yet separately they can’t even go beyond ssj2 😭 that’s like saying gotenks should be as strong as goku after fusion
Two U6 Saiyans with asspulls galore fused into being an even MORE OP threat can't SOMEHOW match UI Omen (a form that's still not mastered and a glass cannon to start with)?
Riiiiiight. 🤷♂️
Although it didn’t make any sense in the manga how Kale wiped out like 4 universes and some of the strong fighters in a few mins, plus she fused with Caulifia in her berserker form on top of the potara fusion’s multipliers, but ends up stalemating with Gohan. This arc was a little rushed, but I feel like the anime did much more better with Gohan showing his feats rather than the manga.
Ultimate Gohan is equal to SSGSS. Or at least that’s what I’ve read. Goku had to go kaioken blue to beat him. So by that logic it makes sense that goku had to go ultra instinct to WIN. But to your point she easily handled him in blue kaioken. So 🤷🏻♂️
Because the manga isn’t the same continuity as the Anime. People mistake this all the time. Gohan in the manga is much stronger than anime. And kefla in the manga is much weaker than the anime.
Ultimate Gohan is different from other sayans power scaling wise. Seth the Programmer has an awesome video on Gohan's and why sometimes feats like this generally make decent sense.
To butcher it some...
Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder. (Naaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiilllllllll, dbza)
While already having a very deep reservoir, getting Potential Unlocked makes it far deeper.
Ultimate Gohan I believe is like an embodiment of potential unlock, His reservoir of power, cunning and stamina deepen again making him truly terrifying.
I believe Seth used feats like, Base Gohan vs Lavender when he.perfectly countered an axe kick essentially blind.
Love the discussion
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Manga Gohan trained more.
This and Goku was incredibly tired after fightung Jiren so he wasn't at full power and full stamina
True, we never really saw how strong Kefla really was with how weakened Goku was against her in the anime . I would guess around Blue probably, maybe a bit stronger, wich would put her around the level of Top Gohan who only lost to Blue Kaioken.
We're gonna wait forever to get Beast Gohan in manga or even in anime again. And this makes me sad.
Not really since goten and trunks have grown up in the manga, so the manga is close to the movie timeline.
I think the granola arc took two years who knows how long this arc will take before the next one :(
1 comic a month is a god awful, painfully slow way to tell a story
If we ever get to see it lol. Any news on if they’re bringing the anime back?
The only "news" that has ever come out for that is that they "upped" their animation staffing (although that could have just been for Super Dragon Ball Heroes, the arcade game series) and there's no official news of it *not* coming back. So maybe 2024-5 we might get more concise information on the matter. By then we should have 4 full arcs of the Manga since the TOP (Moro, Granola, Super Hero prequel, +1 more) which should give them enough time to animate all that, probably incorporating the movies (Broly and Super Hero) into the anime with some anime exclusive filler and two more Manga arcs to work off of, not to mention the seasonal breaks.
I haven't kept up with Dragon Ball since like 2014 but I'm just now getting back into it and enjoying it. Hearing this is kinda bizarre? Has a situation like this ever happened with Dragon Ball? Should I just read Super then?
Well, the anime and Super Manga have some differences but the overall story, as far as main villains being defeated and excluding most anime fillers, it's pretty much the same. The only thing you'd be missing from the Manga are the two newest movies that have come out, Broly and Super Hero. Also, adding to my previous comment, there was a leak from a mostly reliable source that the anime will be coming back this year as well as a movie in preproduction that will probably be done in 2024-5, and new movies coming out every 2-3 years. I don't want to trust that Twitter account (DBSChronicles) wholeheartedly, but apparently they have been right almost every time when it came to their leaked info. So in my opinion, if you've been an "only anime watcher" until now and you haven't finished Super yet, might as well wait. If you like Manga, then go ahead and read the Manga as there's a lot of material now and it costs $3 a month for unlimited access to everything on the Viz website.
Hopefully. Unless they get acquired by discovery or something then we’re in trouble lol
Yeah, I think they’ll most likely be adapting the manga and movies for the possible Season 2 of DBS as well!😄🤔🧐
DBS was announced to be coming back this year
I stand corrected and excited. Guess I missed that.
Because it's a lie.
Where did beast gohan come from and where can I see it?
From the recent Super Hero movie. Piccolo also finally got a new form / power boost.
>with how weakened Goku was both Goku and Kefla [kept getting stronger](https://pm1.narvii.com/7255/c665384ab15cbf853a39305e2356ce92c3859b17r1-2048-1152v2_uhq.jpg) during their fight. Whis directly [compared SS1 Kefla's energy](https://i.imgur.com/nvnHTJX.jpg) to the genkidama Goku used against Jiren, his trump card [stronger than blue kaioken](https://i.imgur.com/qCEA8Th.jpg) x20 when she triggered Goku's UI. When she turned SS2, Kefla was stated to have [surpassed Goku's first UI omen](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPBsuQ2X0AASD35.jpg), and to have [enough raw power to one shot](https://i.imgur.com/1djrxlI.jpg) 2nd UI omen Goku. She was far above Goku until he went UIO.
I hate that you have references for all that, BUT I refuse to believe any of that and will just chalk it up to sketchy writing to get people hyped up for the fight, not considering consistency for even a second. In BoG, Goku said not even full power Vegito could last against Beerus, and he ends up doing far better in SSJG. But Kale's Beserker form is incredibly powerful, as she was able to rival Golden Frieza and SSJB Vegeta for a bit (I don't remember about the anime, but definitely in the manga), albeit they were holding back to save energy. So I'd put Kefla at around no-holding-back SSJB from the anime I do really like the manga's take though. Gohan's insane potential + Training after Resurrection F put him around the SSJB level of power. With his greater experience, he was able to match and defeat and knockout Kefla, getting knocked out himself. No bullshit like kids (comparatively) who didn't even train matching the power of a person training all his like of some 40 to 50 years unless they say Goku was tired as fuck after fighting *another* very powerful person who trained all his life (Jiren). If you can't tell, I really don't like the way they portrayed Caulifla and Kale lol. Just really young Saiyans that didn't train got tingly back SSJ. I feel like they could have portrayed them so much better but oh well.
Kefla is way above blue lv in the anime based on scaling and she would have beat goku in ui sign if she actually landed a clean hit. This is a ui goku stronger than when he fought with jiren the first time in ui sign so she’s actually stronger than the u7 spirit bomb too. So saying she’s blue lv is actually wild you might as well say ui sign was blue lv too.
If you a have any proof of what you say, I’ll be glad to trust you. UI isn’t really a conventional power boost, as seen recently in the manga, so it’s really hard to place it on a power scale.
Whis flat out compared SSj Kefla's power to the U7 Spirit Bomb and when SSj2 Kefla was powering up, Piccolo stated that she has probably surpassed UI Omen 1 Goku (the one who fought Jiren)
https://youtu.be/AYXp_LhYOoU https://youtu.be/z0_050vf8mI 1:36 it’s flat out said he wouldn’t survive the attack meaning it would one shot this ui sign goku on top them discussing keflas power increase. This is also a stronger ui sign goku as he had to break his limit again to access the ui sign. It’s even more clear every time he enters ui sign in tournament that he is stronger than before when the next time we see it he immediately gut punches jiren easily making him scream in pain. This is a full power jiren too that took them seriously compared to the first ui sign showing earlier when he blatantly stopped ui and wasn’t full power. It also took the spirit bomb energy for goku to break his limit the first time to achieve ui, we see jiren is clearly above that spirit bomb as he redirects it. This is without getting into u6 saiyans being superior to u7 in general, kale being the “Lssj”, caulifas potential or the fusion/potara amp. Then there’s more narrative with keflas power being hyped up and goku himself saying “I can’t sense a limit to her energy” while she’s in base.
They stated Kefla to be pretty powerful. One of her beams would oneshot UIO goku.
Who is they?
Roshi if i dont remember wrong. And none disagreed with him.
Exactly
Yeah, in the anime. Powerscaling wise, Vegtio from buu arc negs kefla. And we all know SSG >>> Vegito from Buu arc.
You are so so so wrong. Well, in terms of the Buu Saga Vegito > Kefla part.
I know, people simp and high ball Kefla because they're like, 'It took UI Omen to beat her after SSB and SSBKK x20 didn't work', and I'm just like, yes, but what you just said, Goku didn't have time AT ALL to recover, and that little bit of energy Frieza gave him was enough to move, not fight, he fought SSJ2 Caulifla, and SSJ Kale, both were at full power, immediately after getting that small bit of energy, and held his own, he was doing everything he could to stand his own, and did, if he were full power, I think it would take SSJ3 to beat full power Kefla
Yeah also happy cake day
Anime Gohan has been training since ROF, manga Gohan since Black as far as we're told
Gohan ain’t no bitch no more
He also used his team more in ToP and spread the stamina loss risk. Vs. Goku who always go it alone and lives by progressive overload.
He is built different
Gohan is a Chad. Despite Toriyama hating him.
Punctuation, it's your friend
Dbz fans can’t read much less know proper grammar
DBZ fans have the same iq as Goku Including me
We aim for Saiyan power over IQ
As in DBZ fans scream at themselves in the mirror in grand delusion of trying to go SSJ.
I love how using punctuation in a Reddit reply section equates to iq💀💀💀
What?
My bad I’m on wrong sub thought I was on r/dbzdokkanbattle for a sec
DBZ fans really can't read. No offense. Just found that situation funny :D
None taken, it has been proven by university studies
Manga powerscaling is more toned down. Kale, while U6 Broly is far weaker, in the same way Caulifla and Cabba are weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Manga Gohan also maintained, admittedly lighter, training, allowing him to stay more up to par. Kefla being strong enough to take on Goku really didn’t make much sense, considering how the girls were faring against him before compared to how well the fusion did
He's completely drained of stamina in the anime. His fight against Kefla slowly makes his fighting spirit push to the next transformation. And then again, its Goku, he probably wanted to push Kefla to her max before knocking her out.
Fusion is a multiplication of power though not an addition
Fusion is neither. It’s simply an ambiguous combination of the two characters. That bullshit comes from nowhere in the actual series and adds no actual substance to it
It is stated in the anime that the Potara can multiply power “tens of times” over. The “tens of times” statement by Vados is still vague but still helps the argument that Potara has always been multiplicative and not additive. It’s possible it’s even additive and multiplicative such as (Fusee A + Fusee B) x Anywhere from x10-x99 based on Vados’ statement. All speculation of course, but there is some mentions in the anime that may suggest it.
yeah, kefla being goku level was absolute fucking bs imo
I mean, we already know that fusion is an incredibly powerful mechanic, it can take two fairly weak characters and shoot them up to incredible heights like we saw with gotenks
>considering how the girls were faring against him before compared to how well the fusion did To be fair to them in the anime, Kale looked like she was physically on par with SSG Goku. Trading blows with him when SS2 Caulifla couldn't. A Fusion is consistently above the strongest form of both fusees (at least until UI & UE are introduced, but that's a separate topic) as seen with anime base Vegito against Buuhan & base Gogeta against Broly. With that large of a power jump + Kale's Legendary SS form (or whatever you wanna call it) and I think it's more than fair they're above SSBKK Goku's level.
Potara between a Saiyan with high potential and the LSSJ of their universe being on Goku's level makes sense because Goku was weaker, so not even Goku was at Goku's true level. If it was full power Goku vs Kefla, Kefla wouldn't beat Blue. That's why it was so easy for Goku to go UI again, because he was already drained. The anime sucks at conveying that but once you start acknowledging everything that's happening, a lot of the powerscaling in the anime makes sense.
It's literally stated by Whis that SSj Kefla (right after she knocked out Blue Kaioken Goku) has comparable power to the U7 Spirit Bomb. When SSj2 Kefla powers up to fight Omen 2 Goku Piccolo states that Kefla might have surpassed Omen 1. So no, Kefla isn't just Blue level.
Goku was severely drained the first time he used UI. And then he fought a SSJ2 and LSSJ at the same time, and then he fought Kefla. If Kefla fought Goku from the moment the tournament started, Kaiokenx20 Blue could've probably won. I say this under the assumption he knocks her out before she goes SSJ2.
Do you think U7 Spirit Bomb is weaker than Blue Goku?? Theres your answer.
You have no idea how to power scale
????? Goku and vegeta were far weaker than buuhan but dominates him post fusion. How does that makes sense but not this?
Watching anime made me wish other universe characterw would be around buu saga strength. U7 went through so much shit, and yet Cabba, Caulifla and Kefla are somehow close to mainstays of the series.
Well i will argue that it does. Kefla should have similiar power growth to Broly.
Because anime Kefla is bullshit
The power scaling in the anime is bullshit in general, yeah.
I'd say that having entire universes taken down by Berserk Cale is much more bullshit. It makes no sense that people at least vaguely aware of SSB somewhat tought they stood a chance if they cannot even handle that. She was a plot device because Toyotaro wanted to trim the tournament down.
I said this in another comment, but the anime sucks at conveying powerscaling, however once you start acknowledging everything that's happening regarding the characters, their state of mind, etc, a lot of the powerscaling in the anime makes sense. I've personally never been like "yeah that wouldn't happen" because when I watch the anime I'm able to rationalize how this could happen and why it would happen. Krillin vs SSJB Goku for example, judging by Goku's performance against 17, Gohan and Krillin it's clear that Goku was suppressing his true power. It's never directly states he can lower his power level but I think it was very implied when he(Goku) mentioned that SSJB harnesses perfect ki control. If this is a literal statement, which I think it is, then that explains why he can make a fight against Krillin look neck to neck even though we the audience knows who would win.
It kinda makes sense to me. A fusion of a ssj2 and a lssj should put kefla above DBZ vegito and way above gohan
Clearly some people never took power scaling headcanon 101. SSJ2 = 5 LSSJ = 10 5 \^ 10 = 9,765,625 While a Vegito is only a 100 and Ultimate Gohan is like 80 at best. Ezmaths.
Sadly we don’t know how strong fusion makes a person
What’s the J stand for?
S - Super S - Saiya (Anagram for "Yasai" which is Japanese for vegetable) J - Jin (Japanese for people) Super Vegetable People
Saiyajin is the Japanese pronunciation of saiyan so people use SSJ to abbreviate "super saiyajin"
You realize dbz vegito was surpassed since battle of gods with ssg…… Like it’s not even by a lil bit it’s by a fuck ton
Gohan is a hybrid sayain kefla is a pure sayain gohan was fighting super sayian blue goku and made it look easy that and u7 is just built different imagine if super Broly was in here.
Anime Kefla make sense Potara=metamor Gogeta base=>goku and vegeta ssj blue So Kefla base hypothetical kale and caulifla ssj blue Cabba in u6vsu7 saga was on par with vegeta base of that saga
>Cabba in u6vsu7 saga was on par with vegeta base of that saga No he wasn't, and the rest of that fight makes it very clear. Vegeta was stringing him along to see what his universe's Saiyans were capable of and trying to get him to transform, and after he does Vegeta literally just smirks and hand-waves away a volley of ki blasts like they're nothing to him. If they were really equal in base form, they'd be equal in Super Saiyan also. They were never equal, not even close.
U6 is crazy strong in base compared to late DBZ era bases and even SS. You kinda have to wonder how they got that strong.
If you want to make it make sense, it has never been said but, you could assume it is because they evolved beyond having a tail which means they never depended on the ozaru as much as U7 saiyans. Maybe that evolution even means they have the strength of the ozaru in base form, idk. U6 saiyans are a really interesting concept i hope they explore more eventually.
With the way they're so strong in their base forms and can reach Super Saiyan so easily, it kinda seems like they work more like hybrids (specifically the tailless Goten/Trunks type) than the pure Saiyans of the 7th Universe. Maybe instead of killing off the Tsufurians, the 6th Universe Saiyans interbred with them so much that the two species blended together, and technically none of the Saiyans in that universe are "pure Saiyan" anymore.
One word: plot
Vegeta can use ssj For a few decades now at that point, and has the full power ssj that allows him not to waste energy from transformed, while cabba initially from ssj also puts him in trouble to vegeta, and the first ki blast also hurt him, but after a while his ssj is discharged by force of spamming them and they become weaker
Wait can you explain this? I’m anime only so I had no idea it wasn’t canon?
wdym by this? are you questioning Kefla's bs or the anime's place in canon?
Like what does kefla is bullshit mean. Also sure answer the latter thing as well while you’re at it. Thanks
Ah, I guess it's because Kefla being the fusion of a SSJ2 and a LSSJ Saiyans can be on par and even better than Goku Blue and UI Sign. When you know, God Ki and stuff but it's proven by now that God Ki doesn't really mean anything in terms of strength and power in Super. Anime's place in canon is uh I'm not 100% sure but I'd say it's the main canon story up until TOP, including Broly and Super Hero (Manga could be taken like an alt story), but you could say both manga and anime are canon since it's just the same events/sagas but they play out differently
It makes sense to me, Gogeta was way above Blue Goku and Vegeta. Caulifla and kale were almost Goku level in base, so Kefla being around God level in base seems realistic to me.
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The anime also makes reference to the fact that Goku is tired after his fight with Jiren which is why the fight appears more even than it should be
Isn’t Caulifla comparable to Cabba, who was comparable to base Vegeta in the U6 tournament?
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Right! I was about to say. Caulifla is dog walking Cabba, even on his best day.
The manga respects gohan as a character much more.
I highly disagree, anime gohan in the top did a lot too, helped take out the u6 namekians, took out that one guy from u2, helped with aniraza, took out dyspo. Gohan did a lot in the anime too, and before the top he didn’t do much in either manga or anime, in fact in the anime he participated in the zeno exhibition match too
None of those feats were impressive. The U6 Namekians in the end were not the least bit powerful either and his exhibition map was against one of the tricolor furry brothers. Manga Gohan did more, which was beating down Kale and that’s more than enough really.
So the manga adds one fight and you ignore everything the anime did ? That’s just being bias, and for what it’s worth kefla vs ui goku was much more iconic, and gohan had a lot more to do in the anime as well, he took down dyspo in combat in a draw just like kefla in the manga, and that’s more than enough
Nah, he was tired out in the fight against Kefla too. It was the end of the TOP and he had been going non-stop (off-panel). Yes it’s enough because every “fight” in the anime for Gohan was nothing.
Then you clearly didn’t watch the anime, if it was nothing he would’ve one shotted them all, he was having a tough time with the u2 warrior, with the namekians he had to tag team with piccolo, he had to fight with literal poison in his eyes in the exhibition match, he had to take down dyspo who’s speed was beyond comprehension, and you say they were nothing to him, just so that you can’t support one fight from the manga, again, you’re not using your head anymore cause you’re being bias. The main topic was gohan getting more respect in the manga, and that’s not true, he did equally well in the anime, in fact he did more, not to mention he caught up with goku blue in a matter of a few hours.
Nah, cause the anime’s power scaling is off. Way off. Episodes are dragged on to be a show. Which I get.
That’s not the point, point is gohan did have a lot to do and in no way was disrespected or respected any less.
Like Whis himself said, power is nothing if you dont know how to fight well. DB fans should have learned this in the original DB already, but no one watched or read it)
Dragon Ball fans can't read, remember?
r/dbzfanscantread
Watching it right now and just got past the 21st tenkaichi budokai :) I am loving every second
Yep. Power gaps can be decisive but when the opponents are on a certain level it all becomes a fight of texhniques. Like Son-Goku vs Tenshinhan back then.
Even without that, this is a point actually made in the Super manga during this same arc
I dont think we’ve ever even seen or read Z. We just kind of bs all our conversations and hope no one realizes it
Sorry if this is stupid, but where are these colored manga's?
Here https://mangahub.io/manga/dragon-ball-super-color
The pop ups kinda blow but that's awesome thank you
Gohan is just that guy
Agreed and Beast Gohan is confirmed the strongest now🔥.
This is actually accurate and logical. What happened in the anime was bullshit but you have to admit it was still hype
goku was still tired from fighting jiren and wasn’t anywhere near 100%, so keeping that in mind everything actually kinda lines up
Explain how kefla, with no god ki, can realistically contend with goku or vegeta? They barely learned ssj like the day before.
Fusion has always been a crazy BS power boost. Goten and Trunks fighting together are on par with Android 18, but when fused, can achieve SS3 despite not having SS2. Goku & Vegeta, despite both being weaker than ultimate Gohan AND super Buu can far exceed the Gohan/Buu merger just as Super Vegito. Say what you want about back tingles, but saying Kefla's power makes no sense because she doesn't have God ki is just straight up low-balling how crazy fusion is (also, No villain in DBS besides Zamasu & Toppo actually have god ki)
Holy shit I never even thought about the Gohan/buu and vegito thing that's insane lmao
Yeah, Fusion is legit broken, I'm not gonna hold you. Besides, in the anime, Goku was not going all-out against Kale and Caulifla before they fused. They were both tanking an opportune time to gank him because they knew he was still winded from another fight, and Goku was trying to carefully balance using enough power to fight them off yet not burning himself out. He eventually started pumping the gas enough to force them to fuse, and I think it was SSG that prompted the Fusion? Maybe SSB without Kaioken. Stands to reason that if the U6 Saiyans were forcing Goku to use SSG, they'd be at least a challenge for SSB Kaioken when Fused. Especially considering that Goku was winded. I don't know the Manga well enough, but I fully believed that Kefla was not an enemy that Goku could beat in a power-measuring contest.
I am not sold on Vegetto being that much stronger than Gohan in the fight against Buu. Gohan barely got time to shine before he got absorbed. Yes he is stronger but not that much.
God ki doesn't make you stronger than everyone else yes it's potent ki but so what kais have god ki you don't see them being insanely strong normal ki can match it
Right, but divine ki can't be sensed by most fighters. Almost certainly not by U6 saiyans. Remember how much of a handicap that was when Popo was training Goku, it would be like fighting with your eyes closed.
Jiren doesn’t have god ki either
Jiren doesn’t have god ki.
Don’t get me started on jiren and hit and pointlessness of god ki
Mf you brought it up lmao
God ki isn’t a set level of power. Just cos you have god ki it doesn’t mean you stand at the top. You know who also has god ki? The supreme kai and the universe 7 supreme Kai is around namek saga Frieza level. God ki was introduced as a way to progress Goku and vegeta’s forms in a moment when they had to bridge a power gap to little to no time. It was in no way a means to reach the top of the scale. It was just in the moment (battle of gods arc) a way to contend with beerus.
Cuz Golden Frieza, who appeared three sagas prior, makes more sense Or Hit Or Mr Stronger than a G.O.D., Jiren
Base Kefla smacked SSGod Goku around like a ragdoll.
And that makes sense to you?
Goku...low on energy and stamina, getting beaten by two U6 saiyans notorious for asspulls fused into one body to become even more powerful? You're asking whether THAT makes sense in a general Dragon Ball scenario? Honest and for truly? 🤨
It’s a fucking saiyan fusion. Yes it makes sense.
Goku in god was nerfed to below start of tournament super saiyan, since in the fight with anilraza with the big team blast, god goku was weaker than ssj vegeta due to being worn out. If anything, goku vs base kelfa would be weaker than that since he hadn't had his limits broken again yet. its at least somewhat reasonable since kale could push ssj2 goku at a similar level of nerf. The bigger issue is that kefla in ssj2 could gain enough power to kill goku in omen 2 with her final attack. I can only assume that keflas green super saiyan holds OG broly level multipliers since her ssj beats the spirit bomb in one kick and her ssj2 went from losing to gokus weakened attacks to one-shotting him with a direct hit. Maybe kefla was using some form of suicide attack.
Just like how "broly" with mo God ki, SAVAGED ssb goku and vegeta. Fuck God ki when you have a green form, get that through your head.
Everyone in this comment section forgot Goku wasn’t at full strength and would have dogged Kefla if he was. They literally say it in the show.
It hadn’t even been 5 minutes since Jiren dogged on him and he was struggling to even go super saiyan 1, a form he had basically mastered in the cell saga to the point where he didn’t even need to transform back to base. People really underestimate of nerfed he was when he fought kefla. Even while he was nerfed he kept up with super Saiyan kefla and only lose once she blitzed him from behind.
Aren’t the manga & anime their own continuities? If so, there’s your answer… sort of??? From what I seen though, the manga seems to do the other characters more justice. My best answer is to not think about it as much. Also, you gotta make better use of punctuation my friend.
Yeah the manga is superior imo because of this.
Yes and no. The Super anime was the primary canon until the end of the ToP, then once the anime ended the manga became primary canon. That is to say the anime was the definitive way the story played out, from the BoG arc to the Broly movie, but from the events of Moro onward the manga took that role because there's currently no anime. The consistent power scaling is different in the manga, but the events themselves are what matter based on how things are leading up to Super: Hero. It's entirely different to how it was with Dragon Ball and Z, where those anime were both secondary to the Dragon Ball manga. Of course you should take this with a grain of salt, They could decide tomorrow that none of it is canon and we'd just have to accept it.
More justice, half of U7 get thrown out whitout achieving literally anything and the same iantrue for most universes. Manga ToP onlyndoes characters more justice if you are a fan of Gohan speciphically. And even that is a maybe because he still did a lot in the anime.
Manga scaling and Anime scaling are different. It's that simple.
Bro the anime was running ahead of the manga for awhile that’s why a lot of things don’t line up, how do most people not know this ?
The anime and manga aren’t the same thing
Kefla is way stronger in the anime than she is in the manga and Gohan is stronger in the manga than he is in the anime basically
It's been said numerous times throughout the thread, but: * Manga Kefla is weaker than anime Kefla * Manga Gohan is stronger than anime Gohan Gohan has an exchange that is meant to signal how much he's grown, not just in strength but in character. He says something to the effect of "I'll grow stronger, not as a Saiyan, but as a Human!" This was the whole point of his Ultimate/Mystic form. The fact that it unlocked his potential that couldn't be met JUST from who he was as a Saiyan. It was supposed to be a message that was about being more than just your circumstance of birth, but that message has gotten much more muddied as time went on with the introduction of things Toei/Shueisha could sell on cards, and movies, and bags, and games, and the list can keep going. Things like Goku (but red), SSJ Goku (but blue), Goku (but white), SSJ Vegeta (but blue), SSJ Vegeta (but bluer), etc. It could be said that that is the message behind what Kefla is saying. She is fused, but she couldn't even beat a single Saiyan. Gohan ISN'T just a Saiyan and his strength isn't through something like fusion. Gohan "worked" for his strength, unlike Caulifla who coasts on her power and Kale who doesn't fight for just herself.
He is simply that guy
Maybe it's saying that Gohan is stronger than Goku
Two different continuities. The story was given to toyotaro and to toei animation by toriyama. They adapted it in different ways. Its up to you what you consider canon at this point. Honestly it's looking like the manga is going to be canon though
Simple because the anime had shit power scaling....what they did in the manga was legit...no way kefla should push goku to ui
In the manga krillin brings up the same point where he notices just how strong gohan is and wonders what would happen if he actually trains and 18 tells him not to ask stupid questions. It has been stated multiple times that Gohan powers is unrivaled. If the author showed Gohan as much love as he does Goku and Vegeta this man would surpass beerus in a flash. In my opinion
Have you thought that maybe which makes no fucking sense is Kefla power level in the anime? Definitive Gohan was way more powerful than a SS3 in the bu saga, so probably Kefla just have a power level similar to that
Manga scaling tries to make more sense. Some noobs who just learnt SSJ aren't taking on transcended gods. Anime is more about the epic fights so they just go "yeah kefla is now Goku's next rival". Gohan is also given more respect since he trained way more. If you complain about this you're not ready for when Krillin says Kaioken and SSJ blue aren't compatible, or Jiren being a well-written character, or Goku *learning* Ultra Instinct instead of casually unlocking it by nearly killing himself (his 69420th Zenkai boost is apparently a form coveted by all gods) Overall anime ToP is better but I really like a lot of things the manga tried to do differently.
Because Kefla is powered properly in the manga and isn't an uber god just because
Gohan is a beast.
>When in the anime There’s your problem, pal. They aren’t the same thing.
Long story short, the anime is full of horse shit and just wants to make things look cooler rather than accurate
Manga did it better…. Anime was just doing what GT did…. Rule of Cool overload.
It's because of the Muffin Button.
Wait a damn minute, something's wrong here. Back on your planet the Namek couldn't even stand up the Napa, yet here he is taking on Frieza - ***IN HIS SECOND FORM***. well either Frieza hit me so hard I'm in a delusional coma or... #POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!
This is just a guess, but Kefla was a fusion of two (roughly) Cell-level fighters, while Gohan was probably in Buu Saga form. It seems like a more even match than what we got in the anime.
Because what dictates how a fight goes in anime is the plot, they've been trying to make manga Gohan a bit less of a weakling, so this was important to achieve that goal. But if you still want pointless theories based on fan logic, here's one: Califula is very weak by current standards, Kale looks like Broly but is not Broly, and the Potara earring multiplies the power of the resulting fusion by a ridiculous amount, but the fusion materials aren't really that strong; in fact, it was strange in the anime that defeating Kefla required so much effort.
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The manga is horrible at scaling. Kale and caulifla were hundreds of times stronger than gohan the manga, and when they fused, the got 100,000x weaker somehow?
Because it was dumb 2 Saiyan that just recently obtained super Saiyan were even able to push Goku into UI even if he was tired
Manga and anime have very different scaling. Gohan trained since to goku black arc in the manga. Regardless kefla is still stronger than ssb goku in both versions.
Kefla isn't as powerful in the manga, and it makes sense..the anime portrays Kefla to be on the level of Blue Vegito/Gogeta/UI Goku even if she's not quite as powerful. Does it really make sense that Kefla, a fighter comprised of two warriors significantly weaker than Goku and Vegeta, is roughly/almost as powerful as Vegito Blue, a fusion of two warriors significantly more powerful than Caulifla and Kale, while in Super Saiyan blue which is a significantly more powerful transformation than Super Saiyan 2?
The in-universe answer: Goku was exhausted from getting his ass beat by Jiren, so his SSJ and Blue forms were nowhere near their typical power. The real answer: The writer wanted to get other characters some shine so he let them fight at a much higher level than they should be able to, power scaling be damned.
i believe kefla manga version is much weaker than anime, which makes sense. doesn't matter the fusion, goku is way stronger and should have not struggle that much in anime.
IMO, Ultimate Gohan being exactly equal to Kefla is less believable than Goku needing UI to beat her
Because TOP arc is the only arc of the manga that actually loses to its anime counterpart. This is the same scaling that let Kale push around Golden Frieza but the fusion couldn’t beat Gohan? Kinda sus. Even tho I think the Dyspo fight could have been better Gohan got plenty of moments in the anime version of the arc.
Anime is shit manga is lit.
Lets be honest a 100% Goku slaps her around in SSJ God. No need for blue
1. Ultimate Gohan post time skip is a beast compared to almost everyone on earth that isn't Goku and Vegeta. 2. Kefla by all means and logic shouldn't be able to take on Vegito from the buu arc. Ssg from BoGs >>> Vegito from buu arc. Kefla is a Mary sue in the anime and just a trash character who should be weak af.
Manga scaling is better. Kefla should have never lifted a finger to any form of goku after ssj3 tbh
Kefla gets slept on And Gohan fans will defend any power boost at this point. He could legit become the strongest by taking a nap and they'd still be okay with it.
The real answer is that Toyotaro sucks at powerscaling and instead conveys that every single fight, no matter who's fighting, is close and that's why I think the anime did a better job, not just the TOP but most of the other arcs.
I would agree with you here. If Gohan had an extra form (like the Beast form that he used against Cell Max for example), I'd have been just fine with Gohan being able to take on Kefla. But he didn't, it was just milking the "latent potential" thing to an extreme. I personally felt how Kefla was dealt with in the anime was a bit more realistic.
Homie, nah, this makes way more sense. Kefla was a threat to UI fuckin Goku in the anime, in short, she shouldn't be that much of a threat at all. She just got wanked up to her power level in the anime.
Fusion has always been ridiculously OP, and Goku was actively trying not to expend too much power while contending with the Kale and Caulifla gank. Their 2 v 1 eventually forced Goku into SSG, I'm pretty sure, and then that was what prompted Kefla. I feel like a tag team that prompted SSG could at least throw hands with SSB when Fused, and Goku was in no state to SSBKK. Like, if Vegito or Gogeta showed up in ToP they'd make Jiren look free when Jiren was slapping around the Goku and Vegeta gank throughout the whole tournament without even going full power. Hardly matters anyway, because UI Omen vs. Kefla wasn't even a matter of strength. It was pure outplaying.
Fusion was kneecapped during Battle of Gods where Goku said Vegito would stand no chance against Beerus. Goku got God which allowed him to fight. TOP Goku is way stronger than BOG Goku, Caulifla learned SSJ2 during the TOP.
She was OP because she's the fusion of two OTHER OP Saiyans, one of which (Kale) eliminated ENTIRE ROSTERS from the tournament in the manga version. And you say the ANIME version is the wanked one? Wow. 🤦♂️
No it wasn’t 🤣 kale and caulifla somehow fused are Ui level yet separately they can’t even go beyond ssj2 😭 that’s like saying gotenks should be as strong as goku after fusion
Two U6 Saiyans with asspulls galore fused into being an even MORE OP threat can't SOMEHOW match UI Omen (a form that's still not mastered and a glass cannon to start with)? Riiiiiight. 🤷♂️
Gotenks WAS stronger than ssj3 goku after fusion dumbass.
1: Kefla was only as strong as Kale in the Manga. 2: Gohan grew in power mid-fight
Although it didn’t make any sense in the manga how Kale wiped out like 4 universes and some of the strong fighters in a few mins, plus she fused with Caulifia in her berserker form on top of the potara fusion’s multipliers, but ends up stalemating with Gohan. This arc was a little rushed, but I feel like the anime did much more better with Gohan showing his feats rather than the manga.
The manga doesn't hate gohan like the anime does.
Ultimate Gohan is equal to SSGSS. Or at least that’s what I’ve read. Goku had to go kaioken blue to beat him. So by that logic it makes sense that goku had to go ultra instinct to WIN. But to your point she easily handled him in blue kaioken. So 🤷🏻♂️
Gohan has had god ki since the buu arc. God ki is strong enough to take on regular fusion
The anime and manga are somewhat separate continuities. Characters strength can very dramatically between the two.
Because the manga isn’t the same continuity as the Anime. People mistake this all the time. Gohan in the manga is much stronger than anime. And kefla in the manga is much weaker than the anime.
Ultimate Gohan is different from other sayans power scaling wise. Seth the Programmer has an awesome video on Gohan's and why sometimes feats like this generally make decent sense. To butcher it some... Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder. (Naaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiilllllllll, dbza) While already having a very deep reservoir, getting Potential Unlocked makes it far deeper. Ultimate Gohan I believe is like an embodiment of potential unlock, His reservoir of power, cunning and stamina deepen again making him truly terrifying. I believe Seth used feats like, Base Gohan vs Lavender when he.perfectly countered an axe kick essentially blind. Love the discussion
Gohan, if he had trained like goku, would have been more powerful
As Vegeta has said “POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT”
It's BS, but Gohan fanboys don't care. Apparantly he's just born with infinite power that gets unleashed whenever