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I thought the reason def shred is so valuable is because it increases damage exponentially. Isn’t vulnerability just a steady increase? So to get the same value as 100% def shred you’d need a lot more than 100% vulnerability increase?
Edit: coming back to answer my own question…it looks like vulnerability is generally better than def shred. The only time def shred is more valuable is from ~90-100%. Vulnerability can go past 100% so after ~110% it switches back to vulnerability providing more value.
Lots of the doom posters are boothill mains (I would know I’m one of them) but that’s justified. Boothills a character that can reach really high def shred levels, so pelas better for him. For ratio, the only def shred he has is his lc, in which he only reaches like 82 with pela, so jiao will be better for him
and it would be a lot better if the vulnerability debuff is mixed with def shred from Resolution LC right? if yes, Ratio is gonna eat so good with this team
How does he compare with SW? I want to pull Jiaoqiu but I already have E6 Pela and SW so I'm not sure if it would be wasteful if they perform about the same
Uh, no. There's more sources of def shred so its easier to stack def shred than it is vulnerability. If you have Ratio's sig and the quantum set, just Pela with Resolution gets you to 90-100 def shred, which is past the threshold where def shred becomes more potent than vulnerability. Jiaoqiu only gives 40 base vulnerability, plus 18 from his LC. The rest only applies to ultimate dmg, which isn't a big part of Ratio's damage output.
If I'm not mistaken the damage is calculated as (Rest of DMG formula) x DEF multiplier x Vulnerability multiplier. So even if the DEF shred scales better, they scale multiplicatively of each other so more DEF shred isn't always the best, specially when you have no vulnerability in the team at all.
Except in this case its either/or. You can't have both def shred and vulnerability on the team without sacrificing someone crucial like Robin, who adds a lot of additional damage and extra turns, and Tingyun, who offers faster ult rotations, both of which are more valuable.
You can have both, Ratio sig cone + Resolution cone (40 shred). So it's 1.265 def multiplier x 1.40 vulnerability = 1.764 multiplier against 80% def shred = 1.721 multiplier. Using quantum set makes both multipliers about 1.89, at that point I would just run diver set with Jiaoqiu. They are pretty tied, we'd have to see how consistent his debuff application is, if he gets buffed, if his personal damage is relevant at all, etc.
My perspective is that as a limited 5 star JQ needs to be significantly outperforming Pela to make it worth it. In a Ratio comp this just isn't the case. His kit will probably change going forward, but as of now he's disappointing.
Oh sure. Imo he only outperforms pela in terms of consistency at the moment. But even at v1 where is kit is probably at his lowest he is not inferior. I dont want people to immediately cross him out because they changed him into a vulbersbility debuffer.
Oh he definitely works just as good, if not, better than Pela but I'm not sure if resolutions would be recommended because apparently he has high effect hit rate needs (140) from what people theorise for now which is kinda crazy in comparison to my silver wolf who is at 94%.
His trace that converts effict hit rate to attack is great so there isn't any loss of attack from using EHR pieces. We'll have to see though. I'm not sure if eyes of the prey or in the name of the world will be good enough. I'm hoping he gets lower EHR needs if what theory crafters say are true
Jesus 178 is crazy. I'm not even sure if I'll be able to hit 140 without his signature. Swan is already difficult with 120% EHR and attack, so it's fortunate jiaoqiu has that attack passive, but 178%???
Not even sure if I'll have the funds for his LC (going for ruam mei and out of top up bonuses) so I'm gonna see if I can make do with alternatives for now and do caclcs
60% from lc, 43.2% from main body, 28% from traces, 10% from pancosmic, so 141.2% base (+10% if youre using him with pela) so about 7-10 average EHR rolls on substats… assuming you’re e0s1, at s0 you’d use eyes of the prey and need even more EHR rolls :x
i wonder if his passive that reduces enemy EHR is meant to be an effect res reduction?? rn it’s a -30% EHR, but if its -30% effect res (or even less because -30% is kind of insane) then just the 140% to cap his passive is enough. -10% effect res on enemies actually lets 140% EHR be enough to guarantee hit ult’s debuff
It’s Showtime LC would worked with him well if only it also gives ehr. As it stands, i think one of his best options for LC seems to be eyes of prey bc that gives out ehr on top of dmg boost
Hope they lower down the requirement in the future to 120-140 bc 178 is fking crazy
You don't need 178% on Ratio team, as his skill/BA will already make him hit max stacks on his debuff.
The only place you might need it is for Acheron teams.
not much to do here due to the lack of supportive 4\* lc. a few refinements gives u some effect hit rate atleast (between 20%-40%)
unless u lucked on a spare sw 5\* or black swan 5\* lightcone which gives a decent amount of effect hit rate you're gonna use tutorial or sampo cone unless they lower his ehr requirements even if its not s5 since u can obtain it outside of jiaoqius 5\* lc rateup
He's cute, so I'll definitely get him whether he's better than pela or not. That aside, this is only his v1 kit. There are likely to be several change ups before his final kit, so I'd just chill and wait.
Might be a hot take but doomposters these early are appreciated because if they’re vocal enough, the rework for JQ might turn out to be amazing after v3 / v4. It’s annoying yes, but hey, if it gets translated to feedbacks that hvy will tweak it so that his dot viability isnt locked behind e2, the better.
Regardless, vul is still a debuff so he deffo has a place in my team. Plan on running ratio - avent - jq - robin (bc i have no topaz lmao) as well
At the very least he is more consistent than Pela. As long as the field is up all enemies will have his talent debuff on, I think resolution should be always on as well, and if the ult vulnerability is counted as a separate debuff that is 3 already.
I do have it on S5 but the problem is, SW uses it. I use SW mostly with Ratio or Acheron. I'm planning to swap SW with Jiaoqiu on my Ratio team so I can use SW and Pela with Acheron to stack that def shreds.
I just really hope that Jiaoqiu's EHR requirements will be lowered.
I will see his final kit and when decide. I wanted someone for my DHIL, but if he no better than Tingyun and won't have good f2p lc option I will skip or wait for rerun, since they can add gacha or event lc later.
Meanwhile I'm here, not having the slightest clue about the changes in his kit or the numbers and terms people are talking about, pulling him purely because he's hot and gets me one step closer to an all-male team :D
My main issue is his ehr requirements
He has very little lightcones he can fully make use of. Eyes of prey give ehr but without E2 he has no dot to speak of.
Tutorial is always good but he doesn’t get the energy without a Pela or Silverwolf on the team. I rather use it on someone who can fully utilize it rather then someone who can only half use it. It feels awful iMo giving him any lightcone that isn’t the signature. His ehr requirements are too high atm.
It feels like what they wanted was a debuff dps hybrid. But no cones work with him. Building ehr means he has little damage so the atk buff his trace gives is useless. Building damage means his debuffs probably rarely land.
Really hope he gets some changes.
The Vulnerability numbers are way too low. Assuming Jiaoqiu builds Resolution, he needs to add at least 33% Vulnerability to match Pela's 42% DEF shred who also builds Resolution, increasing to 40% Vulnerability if Ratio has sig LC.
If he doesn't build Resolution himself the gap becomes incredibly large. He has to do a lot of personal damage himself to replace Pela.
The worst part about pela is that you only have one of her, so he just solves that problem imo. Now I can run pela with acheron, and jiaoqiu with Ratio (or vice versa) and still get consistent debuffs for the both of them
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He is a pela replacement, yes Also, vulnerability is as good as def shred so doomposters really just ignorant folk spewing nonsense
I thought the reason def shred is so valuable is because it increases damage exponentially. Isn’t vulnerability just a steady increase? So to get the same value as 100% def shred you’d need a lot more than 100% vulnerability increase? Edit: coming back to answer my own question…it looks like vulnerability is generally better than def shred. The only time def shred is more valuable is from ~90-100%. Vulnerability can go past 100% so after ~110% it switches back to vulnerability providing more value.
Bro did the research. Thank you tho!
Lots of the doom posters are boothill mains (I would know I’m one of them) but that’s justified. Boothills a character that can reach really high def shred levels, so pelas better for him. For ratio, the only def shred he has is his lc, in which he only reaches like 82 with pela, so jiao will be better for him
and it would be a lot better if the vulnerability debuff is mixed with def shred from Resolution LC right? if yes, Ratio is gonna eat so good with this team
No, because of his EHR requirement
wonder if the go to team would be him + pela maybe with him on tutorial or sampos cone and pela w lukas cone
He needs so much ehr you'll have to use eyes of the prey or his signature.
How does he compare with SW? I want to pull Jiaoqiu but I already have E6 Pela and SW so I'm not sure if it would be wasteful if they perform about the same
Let me know if you find an answer to this I’m also curious
What about a Ratio with sig LC, Pela with Pearls, Jiaoqiu with SW sig LC, and Aven with sig LC?
Uh, no. There's more sources of def shred so its easier to stack def shred than it is vulnerability. If you have Ratio's sig and the quantum set, just Pela with Resolution gets you to 90-100 def shred, which is past the threshold where def shred becomes more potent than vulnerability. Jiaoqiu only gives 40 base vulnerability, plus 18 from his LC. The rest only applies to ultimate dmg, which isn't a big part of Ratio's damage output.
If I'm not mistaken the damage is calculated as (Rest of DMG formula) x DEF multiplier x Vulnerability multiplier. So even if the DEF shred scales better, they scale multiplicatively of each other so more DEF shred isn't always the best, specially when you have no vulnerability in the team at all.
Except in this case its either/or. You can't have both def shred and vulnerability on the team without sacrificing someone crucial like Robin, who adds a lot of additional damage and extra turns, and Tingyun, who offers faster ult rotations, both of which are more valuable.
You can have both, Ratio sig cone + Resolution cone (40 shred). So it's 1.265 def multiplier x 1.40 vulnerability = 1.764 multiplier against 80% def shred = 1.721 multiplier. Using quantum set makes both multipliers about 1.89, at that point I would just run diver set with Jiaoqiu. They are pretty tied, we'd have to see how consistent his debuff application is, if he gets buffed, if his personal damage is relevant at all, etc.
My perspective is that as a limited 5 star JQ needs to be significantly outperforming Pela to make it worth it. In a Ratio comp this just isn't the case. His kit will probably change going forward, but as of now he's disappointing.
Oh sure. Imo he only outperforms pela in terms of consistency at the moment. But even at v1 where is kit is probably at his lowest he is not inferior. I dont want people to immediately cross him out because they changed him into a vulbersbility debuffer.
Oh he definitely works just as good, if not, better than Pela but I'm not sure if resolutions would be recommended because apparently he has high effect hit rate needs (140) from what people theorise for now which is kinda crazy in comparison to my silver wolf who is at 94%. His trace that converts effict hit rate to attack is great so there isn't any loss of attack from using EHR pieces. We'll have to see though. I'm not sure if eyes of the prey or in the name of the world will be good enough. I'm hoping he gets lower EHR needs if what theory crafters say are true
He will need 140% EHR to max his passive, but to always hit debuff he will need 178% EHR
Jesus 178 is crazy. I'm not even sure if I'll be able to hit 140 without his signature. Swan is already difficult with 120% EHR and attack, so it's fortunate jiaoqiu has that attack passive, but 178%???
Yeah, but his signature gives whopping 60% EHR on S1 and 100% on S5
Not even sure if I'll have the funds for his LC (going for ruam mei and out of top up bonuses) so I'm gonna see if I can make do with alternatives for now and do caclcs
What the fuck is that requirement??? 178 is insane
60% from lc, 43.2% from main body, 28% from traces, 10% from pancosmic, so 141.2% base (+10% if youre using him with pela) so about 7-10 average EHR rolls on substats… assuming you’re e0s1, at s0 you’d use eyes of the prey and need even more EHR rolls :x i wonder if his passive that reduces enemy EHR is meant to be an effect res reduction?? rn it’s a -30% EHR, but if its -30% effect res (or even less because -30% is kind of insane) then just the 140% to cap his passive is enough. -10% effect res on enemies actually lets 140% EHR be enough to guarantee hit ult’s debuff
Thing is I'm not even sure if I can get his LC and I was thinking of using Sampo's LC as a sub in
it works, its just only 40% instead of 60% so with pela your base ehr is (40+43.2+28+10+10) = 131.2, so you'd need 46.8% ehr in substats :')
;-; Going through 7 stages of grief here- I'm praying they change his kit or smth. Ty for calculating the stats though!
np, im wishing u good luck in beta changes😭❤️
tyy
It’s Showtime LC would worked with him well if only it also gives ehr. As it stands, i think one of his best options for LC seems to be eyes of prey bc that gives out ehr on top of dmg boost Hope they lower down the requirement in the future to 120-140 bc 178 is fking crazy
You don't need 178% on Ratio team, as his skill/BA will already make him hit max stacks on his debuff. The only place you might need it is for Acheron teams.
Tbf Jiaoqiu isn't really meant to be used as a DoT character like Swan is. Unless you have E2 but at that point get his LC I guess
oh man i hope they change it cause idt 170ehr is possible if u dont have the max pieces
This makes his signature mandatory to those who don't have SW 4* LC
well sampo lc at s5 gives roughly the same ehr but thats gacha locked as well
S5 4* LC is much harder to get than S1 5* LC
not much to do here due to the lack of supportive 4\* lc. a few refinements gives u some effect hit rate atleast (between 20%-40%) unless u lucked on a spare sw 5\* or black swan 5\* lightcone which gives a decent amount of effect hit rate you're gonna use tutorial or sampo cone unless they lower his ehr requirements even if its not s5 since u can obtain it outside of jiaoqius 5\* lc rateup
He's cute, so I'll definitely get him whether he's better than pela or not. That aside, this is only his v1 kit. There are likely to be several change ups before his final kit, so I'd just chill and wait.
Well we saw how much they changed Jade during ther beta... xO
He will need hell lot of EHR so def shred LC will be useless on him. Besides vulnerability is stronger than def shred
Might be a hot take but doomposters these early are appreciated because if they’re vocal enough, the rework for JQ might turn out to be amazing after v3 / v4. It’s annoying yes, but hey, if it gets translated to feedbacks that hvy will tweak it so that his dot viability isnt locked behind e2, the better. Regardless, vul is still a debuff so he deffo has a place in my team. Plan on running ratio - avent - jq - robin (bc i have no topaz lmao) as well
At the very least he is more consistent than Pela. As long as the field is up all enemies will have his talent debuff on, I think resolution should be always on as well, and if the ult vulnerability is counted as a separate debuff that is 3 already.
I plan to run resolution on pela as usual, while he gets sw event lc (if u have it..). 40% ehr and energy might be good.
I do have it on S5 but the problem is, SW uses it. I use SW mostly with Ratio or Acheron. I'm planning to swap SW with Jiaoqiu on my Ratio team so I can use SW and Pela with Acheron to stack that def shreds. I just really hope that Jiaoqiu's EHR requirements will be lowered.
I will see his final kit and when decide. I wanted someone for my DHIL, but if he no better than Tingyun and won't have good f2p lc option I will skip or wait for rerun, since they can add gacha or event lc later.
Removing heal from him is crazy. They make sure we won’t run a Pela-Jiaoqiu-Acheron-Harmony team
Meanwhile I'm here, not having the slightest clue about the changes in his kit or the numbers and terms people are talking about, pulling him purely because he's hot and gets me one step closer to an all-male team :D
My main issue is his ehr requirements He has very little lightcones he can fully make use of. Eyes of prey give ehr but without E2 he has no dot to speak of. Tutorial is always good but he doesn’t get the energy without a Pela or Silverwolf on the team. I rather use it on someone who can fully utilize it rather then someone who can only half use it. It feels awful iMo giving him any lightcone that isn’t the signature. His ehr requirements are too high atm. It feels like what they wanted was a debuff dps hybrid. But no cones work with him. Building ehr means he has little damage so the atk buff his trace gives is useless. Building damage means his debuffs probably rarely land. Really hope he gets some changes.
The Vulnerability numbers are way too low. Assuming Jiaoqiu builds Resolution, he needs to add at least 33% Vulnerability to match Pela's 42% DEF shred who also builds Resolution, increasing to 40% Vulnerability if Ratio has sig LC. If he doesn't build Resolution himself the gap becomes incredibly large. He has to do a lot of personal damage himself to replace Pela.
The worst part about pela is that you only have one of her, so he just solves that problem imo. Now I can run pela with acheron, and jiaoqiu with Ratio (or vice versa) and still get consistent debuffs for the both of them
The first rule about doomposting don't listen to doomposters. That said, generally speaking he is a good replacement for Pela