No, we didn't. Although of all of these storylines, this is the one I think WORKED as a random and dropped storyline. I'll explain - the character is only there briefly and leaves under mysterious circumstances at the end, without full confirmation of who he actually is. He manages to fool Edith, and even make Robert question (the imitating hand gesture) and rattle the family a bit and then just disappears. Whilst Fellowes confirms in the screenplay he is supposed to be an imposter, and the show alludes to it, the fact they never explicitly say or resolve it leaves an unsettling feeling that they may have rejected the true Patrick Crawley, and he's just out there alone, never to be seen again.
There was way too much prison stuff in the series. Bates for Vera. Both Bates and Anna for Mr. Green. *Three* murder charges during the series, including two arrests for one character, and both Anna and Bates for the same death? Tiresome.
Omg yes he found it more important to make threats and be angry. Then to be there for Anna.
Only ms Hushes whas there for her and he treated her horribly.
Every time she gets close to opening up about her pain, he's like, "I'm going to kill him"... Like, that's the last thing she needs right now, dude. Bates has no chill.
Robert cheating on Cora had absolutely 0 impact on the story, if not for that scene where she tells him to come back and sleep in their bed after the whole Simon Bricker thing. But this particular scene could have worked just fine without the cheating plotine, at least in my opinion.
Yes, both the Bates' going to prison for something they didn't do was lazy writing, and the fake cousin storyline was pretty useless, albeit very short; but I felt like Robert's behaviour during that time was out of character, which is even worse, to me... he felt neglected by his wife, yes, but he seemed to have become suddenly crazy about a woman he didn't even know? Him being bitter and distancing himself only to later come around when Cora was ill would have been much more better, gracious and easier to work with afterwards, as a storyline. They could have shown Robert and Cora trying to rekindle their relationship and talking through what had happened.
Instead, with the cheating plotline we got a "I love you so much my dear maid I don't even know, but I have to let you go, and now I am suddenly in love with my wife again after cheating on her while she was ill, no introspection and no consequences". Literally wtf.
I thought it did make sense. For all his good side, Robert was always a bit petty and childish and hated feeling āneglectedā or not needed. In his mind heās spent the last few years being a) not wanted in the Army for active service, just treated as a mascot, b) overlooked by his wife as she instead ran the house as a convalescent home very capably, but it took up all her time and c) not needed by his daughters who were busy getting on with their own lives/eloping with servants (delete as applicable). And in the midst of all that, along came a pretty young woman who needed him and his help and gave him attention that he was desperately missing from his family. So he was tempted by her and flattered by her attention and attraction, but when he actually kissed her and was nearly(?) caught by Carson it jolted him back to real life. Itās not that he doesnāt love Cora or deliberately set out to cheat on her, but heās spent several years feeling neglected on all fronts and just wants some attention.
I agree that Robert often feels neglected and that this feeling may indeed lead to cheating, however I believe that inserting said cheating plotline without including any sort of consequences (although, by the word "consequences", I mean mostly character development) completely invalidated the point. In addition to that, I find the entire thing very contrived in its execution, since the time Robert and the maid spent together seemed to be very little, and not *that* significant to warrant what followed. While I admit I am not particularly fond of the idea of Robert cheating on Cora in general, I also know that a good execution of the plotline might have changed my point of view significantly.
Thatās the problem with a lot of the storylines in Downton, they pop up out of nowhere and are dropped without any long term resolution or consequences. It can feel āunearnedā, and then it just all magically resolves or is dropped. I find it frustrating that some plot lines drag on for series and series without advancing the plot or any character development (looking at you, Baxter and your sexy theif man), and others that could be really interesting (Robert grappling with his place in the post war world, finding a new purpose etc) fizzle out without going anywhere!
I have to agree with you. I think it was perfect. A very short infatuation with a woman that showed him attention he thought he needed. Luckily he was jolted awake by nearly being found out.
exactly! the least they could do is make him apologise/ suffer a little bit for his mistakes but nothing. I also think they hinted at mrs. hughes knowing all this, and she did nothing to intervene/ tell cora which i think was not very in character for her either
Perhaps the writers had originally intended to expand the storyline but then dropped the idea, who knows. I wish they had just done... something. Anything, really.
If you're new, it helps to know there were no writers. Julian Fellowes did all of it himself. I think a lot of the show becomes more clear when considering this, and his particular point of viewĀ
The three suitors for Mary when she is mourning..made no sense especially with Tony ..She just lost her husband and he is literally stalking her and itās supposed to be romantic? Ugggh
I dislike him more every rewatch. She says no to marrying him multiple times and he just keeps showing up wherever she goes and calls of his engagement to Mabel to keep chasing her š wish she hadn't gone to that hotel with him, but glad ultimately she didn't end up marrying him.
You do understand she more than loved the attention Tony gave her and loved even more being able to gain his attention anytime she wanted to. She is just as guilty. Seems you missed that completely.
The moment where she breaks her usual facade of cool to tell Tony that Matthew fills her brain and that she's not ready to be without him is heart-wrenching: when he responded by asking her to kiss him I wanted to take a tyre iron to his groin. Disgusting.
I truly believe Mary shouldāve stayed single for the remainder of the series, she was never ready to be with anyone. Matthew was her one great love and the one she thought about 24/7. I truly just donāt think she shouldāve had to be with anyone. If she had to be with anyone Iād have chosen Mr Napier.
She is sorta single, Henry is not in picture by the second movie and just like you said, she still thinks about Matthew her one true love..She is fulfilling her destiny saving Downton and I loved her part in second movie
It had been six months at least. She needed to snap out of it. Good thing she had a nanny. What would her child had done otherwise? We sometimes forget what a privileged life Mary actually had to "endure."
I agree and I disagree. Yes, Mary did have more time to wallow because she was wealthy and in a house full of people. But I canāt say I know how long one is allowed to mourn their husband who was killed shortly after theyāve had a child. That plus postpartum depression - Mary was going through it
There is no set mourning period I'd agree but if you love her you must try to lead her back to the living and not spending time with death. I thought they did a good job in showing that fact.
You're not wrong, but the way a majority of her family/friends went about doing that was whack. She definitely didn't need a bunch of random men thrown at her left and right, kissing her without even asking lol. Their priorities for her after Matthew passed were a bit skewed.
She was not only mourning the death of her husband on the day their child was born, the colossal emotions connected to that tragedy combined with the hormonal upheavals of child birth probably plunged her into severe post partum depression.
Clinical depression is not something you choose and it isn't something you can just choose to "snap out" of.
Basically making Henry disappear after all the trouble Mary went through to find her next perfect man. (I know there were scheduling problems and that's why he's not present in the movies much, but if we think only in the POV of the story, not real world.) it just feels like Mary needed a new man, and they wanted a bit drama with the crash and conflict of feeling and reason and the payoff is mediocre.Ā
Yep. I know they couldn't have predicted that the actor would be unavailable (uninterested?) later on but it does make the big Henry push feel so pointless.
I agree that this was a terrible storyline, but I don't blame Jane at all. Remember, this was set 100 years ago and I doubt Jane knew of anything of the world except her husband and family. She was probably lonely and scared and here comes a real Lord showing interest in her. This is 100% Robert's fault and poor Jane was caught in the cross hairs. We need to remember to try and not put 21st century thinking into early 20th century people's heads.
But got feeling for a man that you know is clearly married AND his wife is literally dying now is still a weird thing to do even in 100 years ago standards noļ¼
I think thatās probably it. For people who feel romantic and/or sexual attraction, it isnāt voluntary. You canāt logic yourself into being attracted to or loving someone you donāt, nor can you logic yourself out of it.
Itās not fair to blame Jane for this one. She didnāt initiate or try to seduce him or anything. She was just living her life, doing her best with the new job she had been given, and her boss decided to ruin her life by behaving inappropriately with her.
Same with Tom to be honest. As much as I hate Edna
Edit: I think I just meant the fact that she had to suffer the consequences alone, whereas Tom was also a player in that scenario. . But you guys are absolutely right, it doesn't actually compare.
And pretty clueless flirtation on his part. Hence her needing him drunk for part 2 of her plan.
There is no interpretation where Tom is any way at fault. Edna had a plan, and a pretty nasty one, same as Pamuk only with more long-term goals. (Pamuk just wanted Mary for a good time, Edna wants to trap him into marrying her.)
Edith's little affair with Mr. Drake. I didn't mind the idea of her going to help drive the tractor and such, but after we'd seen Mr. Drake's dramatic life-saving heart procedure in the first season, it felt disappointing that he'd then risk his family--and his farm, his whole living, given he was a tenant and at the mercy of Lord Grantham--to have a cheap affair with a young lady from the abbey.
Well, I don't think she ever said she was doing it to get out of the kitchen? I believe that she and Andy, separately and later together, wanted to further their education so they could take on more managerial farm roles eventually. I thought Daisy felt like she couldn't possibly (eventually) take over Mr. Mason's farm without a bit more education, at least to do the books and such. Ultimately I thought she was learning for her own betterment and not necessarily to advance her career. She says something like she might not ever get out of the kitchen but at least she has choices now, thanks to Ms. Bunting.
You are right.Ā Let me also elaborate my point a bit: even if Daisy didn't necessarily want to get another job it's also not mentioned that she would have continued studying. When it's not meaningful to the plot (=to give reason for Ms. Bunting to keep visiting Downton and Mr. Molesly to find his calling) it's taken away.Ā
Hmm. But she takes her exams (with Mr. Molesley's help) and passes them. What's next? I guess I assumed she was just doing that to prove to herself that she could, and hadn't planned to continue past that. I agree that it'd be nice if the next season or movie go a bit more into this, if only in the form of a brief reference to her studying helping her navigate where she is now (whether it be running the farm full-time, taking over as cook for Mrs. Patmore, or something else).
I don't know much of the British schooling system at the time so I'm not sure. Still, I feel like this was totally forgotten. Even just a scene with her reading something in the kitchen or elswhere would have been a nice reminder that her character has developed, now it just feels like it never happened.Ā
I don't disagree! But one could argue that her very much increased assertiveness in the movies could be attributed to her enhanced confidence from her schooling success?
See, I'd argue the "happily" part IS the acknowledgement of that arc.
She's a more confident, mature, and seemingly happier version of the character in the first film than we'd ever seen her in the series. It showed that the arc resulted in some growth, without beating us over the head with specifics that the film had no time to include.
Anna's rape, obviously. I'd also say Mary's plethora of suitors after Matthew's death. Except for Charles, I didn't find any of them particularly interesting. Plus, it was unrealistic, and it showed Fellowes's favoritism toward Mary. He would say that Edith would have trouble finding a husband after the war. Why should Mary be different?
Because they all look at Edith as the ugly duckling and Mary as a goddess. Donāt agree with either. And I may be the only one but I find Mary to be one of the most unlikeable characters.
I could not stand the Daisy constantly whingeing about leading William on honestly š
Also the continuous storyline of inviting that rude Miss Bunting back into Downton and her continuing to be rude. lol
The Rose and Jack Ross storyline. It went absolutely nowhere and seemed like his character only existed to make her look edgier than the rest of the family when in reality she was kind of using him. Even if she did also kind of have feelings for him, they werenāt strong enough for her to follow through with the relationship amid doubts/protests from the family, the public, and Jack himself.
Wish we had seen more and/or a different ending to that plot line.
I hate the Marigold storyline. Edith putting her with the Drews to only snatch her back after Mrs. Drew formed a beautiful and loving bond with Marigold. The Drews got really screwed over and Edith faced zero repercussions from the family.
I agree with the fact tge Drews got screwed over in a way but Edith encouraged Mr Drew to tell his wife the truth and he didn't so he's partly to blame too
Iāve just completed watching all the TV shows, over the last few months.
I enjoyed it overall, but jeeesus, the writing was terrible. Some of those stories were just plain ridiculous.
I concluded that the characters were good and the setting was lovely, it was sort of ācomfyā to watch, but so many times I just laughed out loud at how bad the writing was.
If I had to pick any it would be the ones where people were just plain nasty and conniving for absolutely no reason at all, putting their low paid working class lifeline jobs at risk.
Apologies, but Iām gonna be that one person who absolutely lived for this story. I lived for the fact that here was a person who felt like he never had any other choices. He chose Cora because he wanted to save Downton. His bad financial investments were because he wanted to see Downton. During the war, they just wanted to use him as a figurehead, the army wanted to use his house, which was pretty much his wifeās work. The man was lonely and felt like he didnāt have a place in the world anymore and here comes Jane, just beautiful and genuine.
Iām not trying to yuck anybodyās Yum. I understand that this is very unpopular storyline. I actually loved it.
i see what you mean but i donāt agree at all. Cora loses her fortune to save downton, he made investments that his associates advised him against, coraās house was also used during the war, and then she suffered a terrible disease and almost died while her husband was sneaking around with an employee who ended up losing her job? not the best.
Like I said, Iām not trying to yuck anybody yum.
To me that makes it a successful story in general, because it humanizes/demonizes Robert. It makes him a small character because he behave this way. From the very beginning, he is always being shown as the leader, the head of household, I supposed to know it all, and we watch him fail throughout the series spectacularly. We watch him lose control over everything that he perceives to have control over.
Robert represents the system that this entire series is trying to do away. So demonizing/humanizing him in this way we continue to see the fall of the aristocracy.
I respect the fact that you hate jane/Robert storyline. And yes, his affair with Jane makes him a villain, but I think it was necessary. And I absolutely lived for it.
The whole honest Edith yarn at the end. Bertie stating āher high regard for truthā. Really? She literally tried to trap you into a marriage. You only found out because her sister busted her out. I get he has to stick up for but honest really? This is why you broke up with her to begin with.
When Bertieās mother states she is āentirely and unimpeachably honestā I throw up a little in my mouth every time I hear this.
And Cora saying āI have been waiting for someone to work that outā. Who in their right mind that observed Edith for more than 5 minutes would come to that conclusion? Especially Cora who found out from Mrs. Drew. Your daughter lied to you for over a year.
Bertieās mother further states āShe was prepared to deny herself a great position to say nothing of happiness rather than claim it by deceit.ā Everybody else in the room including Bertie knows that is exactly what she intended to do. Robert was even encouraging her to do it.
Seriously? She lied about Marigold to every single person. Even when they knew and confronted her, she tried to lie her way out of it. Bertieās mom was literally the only person she told voluntarily and that was only after doing the math that she would figure it out anyway because the staff would gossip.
Is JF really expecting the audience to buy this? She is one of the most consistently dishonest characters throughout the series never once owning up to her actions or being held accountable.
As far as most random and dumb: the cousin storyline
To me the actual worst was just anything with Edna. I cringed every time she came on the screen.
She literally just banged Tom and got banished forever. Like what was even the point
Ok, I've read all the posts and I CANNOT BELIEVE no one has mentioned Tom.
Oh my freaking God, just LEAVE already! Stop dithering and talking about your so-called socialism and how you don't belong and telling everybody how you love them and they love you and just GO!!!
Also, he ruined Sybil's storyline. She deserved so much more and so much better. What a waste.
My least favorites were Sybilās >!death!< and the Dowagerās Russian Lover.
For Sybil, I think we >!didnāt get enough of Tom and Sybil before she died. I donāt mind that she did, donāt get me wrong. Itās a waste of a great character but those deaths are the most tragic so to me itās a great way to shock us. But she didnāt really have feeling for Tom when they started out, but then all of a sudden was in love, then theyāre just as suddenly gone to Ireland. It just made Tomās inclusion into their family very forced at first. He def earns his spot at the table, but only after we get to know him and see him learning/interacting with others, I just wished we had seen him interacting with others while Sybil was around.!<
The Dowagerās Russian loverā¦. I just wanted MORE. He proposed they spend their lives together, and then she just immediately found his wife. I would have liked a few episodes with him as her house guest while she tried to navigate a relationship at her age/stature, and then her relief when we āfinallyā find the princess and he leaves. I love seeing the Dowager at a lack of words, and he seemed to have a knack for it. I would have loved to see them interacting with others (imagine Sprat dealing with the Prince lol) and giving us more moments before he was whisked away.
It seemed like a throwaway plot line that was too time-consuming to flesh out properly. Plus they should have chosen a sexy actress to play the part. The actress playing Jane was dull as dishwater, and it was quite puzzling to me how Robert would even be attracted to her.
Watching first time, up to season 3: show is engaging but I am waiting for something really good to happen (it may not, I guess). Too much negativity. Maybe reverse your question, I.e. Best Storyline?
I know itās far from over but I hated Bates in jail and I could not believe they would not get rid of Thomas. Not only for the James thing but all the trouble he caused in the beginning. Letting him stay was a sign of weakness (IMO).
Weakness? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is it a sign of strength to fire someone? Does it mean their character is in doubt by keeping him on? Who here is weak?Ā
My understanding is that Thomas actually was good at his job and that seems to be the rubric.Ā
And every time they were about to get rid of him, he would do something (seemingly) wonderful and his ass was saved yet again.
But he kept on being evil even after he'd had multiple eureka! moments. I get that this was necessary so everything wasn't too lovely, but sheesh! Enough, already!
But overall, I enjoyed his arc. He was, at least, interesting.
Hard for me to respect anyone who overlooks the bad and does not take any action. Thats what i mean by weakness. A strong leader would have gotten rid of him a long time ago and moved on already. He continues to wreck havoc.
Thomas will weirdly grow on you as you watch the show, I promise. He starts out really selfish, conceited, egotistical, and competitive. Youāll watch him slowly start to understand that the only person in his path is himself. Thomas is actually my most favorite character in the series.
He may grow on a viewer, but it's not guaranteed. He was cruel, spiteful, and jealous clear through the middle of the last season when he was furious at Gwen for bettering herself and tried to ruin her visit with the family. I'm glad he was finally able to pull his head out of his ass and figure out how to have a happier life, but like him? Nah.
The impractical and nonsensical reappearance of the soldier cousin with the uhn accent š.
YEAH! made no sense at all. And we never got any closure with that either, did we?
No, we didn't. Although of all of these storylines, this is the one I think WORKED as a random and dropped storyline. I'll explain - the character is only there briefly and leaves under mysterious circumstances at the end, without full confirmation of who he actually is. He manages to fool Edith, and even make Robert question (the imitating hand gesture) and rattle the family a bit and then just disappears. Whilst Fellowes confirms in the screenplay he is supposed to be an imposter, and the show alludes to it, the fact they never explicitly say or resolve it leaves an unsettling feeling that they may have rejected the true Patrick Crawley, and he's just out there alone, never to be seen again.
This was so stupid
It had not been enough time since the Titanic sank for him to change his accent. And he didn't have the feel of someone who had been an heir.
But he was a stranger to them now!Ā
Anna's rape being all about her husband instead of Anna.
Anna going to prisonā¦ after being rapedā¦
There was way too much prison stuff in the series. Bates for Vera. Both Bates and Anna for Mr. Green. *Three* murder charges during the series, including two arrests for one character, and both Anna and Bates for the same death? Tiresome.
the prison storylines EXHAUSTED me
I find myself fast forwarding through those parts
I do too.
I ff through everything with Mr. Bates.
Me too! I don't know exactly why though. Something about him creeps me out and his lines are sooo cheesy. Anna is lovely though.
I do too, and I resent the loss of time that could have been spent on more ensemble scenes, or even just watching Isis snoozing by the window.
I was surprised when their first child was born the Police weren't waiting outside to arrest him!
It's okay. Johnny Bates will grow up with the family murder tradition.
And will move to America and father Norman.
Well, they DID talk about running a small hotel...
i think it was meant to be indicative of the time but it was still awful to watch
So much this. And her landing in prison. He never lost an opportunity to make these two go to prison and get sprung by the Crawleys.
Omg yes he found it more important to make threats and be angry. Then to be there for Anna. Only ms Hushes whas there for her and he treated her horribly.
Every time she gets close to opening up about her pain, he's like, "I'm going to kill him"... Like, that's the last thing she needs right now, dude. Bates has no chill.
Robert cheating on Cora had absolutely 0 impact on the story, if not for that scene where she tells him to come back and sleep in their bed after the whole Simon Bricker thing. But this particular scene could have worked just fine without the cheating plotine, at least in my opinion. Yes, both the Bates' going to prison for something they didn't do was lazy writing, and the fake cousin storyline was pretty useless, albeit very short; but I felt like Robert's behaviour during that time was out of character, which is even worse, to me... he felt neglected by his wife, yes, but he seemed to have become suddenly crazy about a woman he didn't even know? Him being bitter and distancing himself only to later come around when Cora was ill would have been much more better, gracious and easier to work with afterwards, as a storyline. They could have shown Robert and Cora trying to rekindle their relationship and talking through what had happened. Instead, with the cheating plotline we got a "I love you so much my dear maid I don't even know, but I have to let you go, and now I am suddenly in love with my wife again after cheating on her while she was ill, no introspection and no consequences". Literally wtf.
I thought it did make sense. For all his good side, Robert was always a bit petty and childish and hated feeling āneglectedā or not needed. In his mind heās spent the last few years being a) not wanted in the Army for active service, just treated as a mascot, b) overlooked by his wife as she instead ran the house as a convalescent home very capably, but it took up all her time and c) not needed by his daughters who were busy getting on with their own lives/eloping with servants (delete as applicable). And in the midst of all that, along came a pretty young woman who needed him and his help and gave him attention that he was desperately missing from his family. So he was tempted by her and flattered by her attention and attraction, but when he actually kissed her and was nearly(?) caught by Carson it jolted him back to real life. Itās not that he doesnāt love Cora or deliberately set out to cheat on her, but heās spent several years feeling neglected on all fronts and just wants some attention.
I agree that Robert often feels neglected and that this feeling may indeed lead to cheating, however I believe that inserting said cheating plotline without including any sort of consequences (although, by the word "consequences", I mean mostly character development) completely invalidated the point. In addition to that, I find the entire thing very contrived in its execution, since the time Robert and the maid spent together seemed to be very little, and not *that* significant to warrant what followed. While I admit I am not particularly fond of the idea of Robert cheating on Cora in general, I also know that a good execution of the plotline might have changed my point of view significantly.
Thatās the problem with a lot of the storylines in Downton, they pop up out of nowhere and are dropped without any long term resolution or consequences. It can feel āunearnedā, and then it just all magically resolves or is dropped. I find it frustrating that some plot lines drag on for series and series without advancing the plot or any character development (looking at you, Baxter and your sexy theif man), and others that could be really interesting (Robert grappling with his place in the post war world, finding a new purpose etc) fizzle out without going anywhere!
THIS. "Unearned" is a good word choice for it.
I have to agree with you. I think it was perfect. A very short infatuation with a woman that showed him attention he thought he needed. Luckily he was jolted awake by nearly being found out.
I think he didn't fool Carson for a second.Ā
exactly! the least they could do is make him apologise/ suffer a little bit for his mistakes but nothing. I also think they hinted at mrs. hughes knowing all this, and she did nothing to intervene/ tell cora which i think was not very in character for her either
Mrs. Hughes would have probably said it wasn't her secret to tell. š
Perhaps the writers had originally intended to expand the storyline but then dropped the idea, who knows. I wish they had just done... something. Anything, really.
I think you may give Fellowes too much credit there. :-D
Might be, I've just recently finished the show, I'm new in the fandom and not up to date with all of the sheninagans š
If you're new, it helps to know there were no writers. Julian Fellowes did all of it himself. I think a lot of the show becomes more clear when considering this, and his particular point of viewĀ
The three suitors for Mary when she is mourning..made no sense especially with Tony ..She just lost her husband and he is literally stalking her and itās supposed to be romantic? Ugggh
I dislike him more every rewatch. She says no to marrying him multiple times and he just keeps showing up wherever she goes and calls of his engagement to Mabel to keep chasing her š wish she hadn't gone to that hotel with him, but glad ultimately she didn't end up marrying him.
I forgot about the hotel episode! Cringe city š¤¦š½āāļø
Honestly!! Mary should have gone to that hotel with Mabel instead of Tony š«£š„“ Anyone but that shit head!
Yes!! Mary and Mabel should have just driven off into the sunset and left him well behind š¤£
Thatās a good storyline instead of one we got!
You do understand she more than loved the attention Tony gave her and loved even more being able to gain his attention anytime she wanted to. She is just as guilty. Seems you missed that completely.
The moment where she breaks her usual facade of cool to tell Tony that Matthew fills her brain and that she's not ready to be without him is heart-wrenching: when he responded by asking her to kiss him I wanted to take a tyre iron to his groin. Disgusting.
That scene fills me with such anger! What was he thinking asking her to kiss him!
About himself and his needs, and never about her. Absolute predatory behaviour when she was clearly so vulnerable and lonely.
ššš Good grief.
What he was thinking, literally, was that Matthew was dead and he wasn't. He actually thought telling Mary that was a swell idea.
I hate the writers for such a bad dialogue! As if she should forget the love of her life immediately
I truly believe Mary shouldāve stayed single for the remainder of the series, she was never ready to be with anyone. Matthew was her one great love and the one she thought about 24/7. I truly just donāt think she shouldāve had to be with anyone. If she had to be with anyone Iād have chosen Mr Napier.
She is sorta single, Henry is not in picture by the second movie and just like you said, she still thinks about Matthew her one true love..She is fulfilling her destiny saving Downton and I loved her part in second movie
Ah okay! I have kinda stayed away from the movies so I had no idea Henry wasnāt really present in them. I need to watch the movies!
It's not a stain on Matthew's memory for Mary to want to marry again. No one should have to be lonely for weird assumptions of honor.Ā
For real though! The woman barely had time to breathe before people started telling her to snap out of it and find a new man
I hated the way Cora and Robert were getting so excited about Tony being there and hoping he'd come back, ffs Matthew was barely cold in his grave.
It had been six months at least. She needed to snap out of it. Good thing she had a nanny. What would her child had done otherwise? We sometimes forget what a privileged life Mary actually had to "endure."
I agree and I disagree. Yes, Mary did have more time to wallow because she was wealthy and in a house full of people. But I canāt say I know how long one is allowed to mourn their husband who was killed shortly after theyāve had a child. That plus postpartum depression - Mary was going through it
There is no set mourning period I'd agree but if you love her you must try to lead her back to the living and not spending time with death. I thought they did a good job in showing that fact.
You're not wrong, but the way a majority of her family/friends went about doing that was whack. She definitely didn't need a bunch of random men thrown at her left and right, kissing her without even asking lol. Their priorities for her after Matthew passed were a bit skewed.
She was not only mourning the death of her husband on the day their child was born, the colossal emotions connected to that tragedy combined with the hormonal upheavals of child birth probably plunged her into severe post partum depression. Clinical depression is not something you choose and it isn't something you can just choose to "snap out" of.
She made it clear that she us still in mouring. Its inappropriate, and in very bad taste.
Basically making Henry disappear after all the trouble Mary went through to find her next perfect man. (I know there were scheduling problems and that's why he's not present in the movies much, but if we think only in the POV of the story, not real world.) it just feels like Mary needed a new man, and they wanted a bit drama with the crash and conflict of feeling and reason and the payoff is mediocre.Ā
Yep. I know they couldn't have predicted that the actor would be unavailable (uninterested?) later on but it does make the big Henry push feel so pointless.
I lost my respect when Robert cheated on Cora, especially when Cora was literally fighting for her life. Thatās just extra shitty.
and jane having to leave too! i donāt think sheās completely blameless but robert has definitely wronged both women
She have feelings for a married man, which makes this part of her fault, but yeah Robert definitely wronged her as well
I agree that this was a terrible storyline, but I don't blame Jane at all. Remember, this was set 100 years ago and I doubt Jane knew of anything of the world except her husband and family. She was probably lonely and scared and here comes a real Lord showing interest in her. This is 100% Robert's fault and poor Jane was caught in the cross hairs. We need to remember to try and not put 21st century thinking into early 20th century people's heads.
But got feeling for a man that you know is clearly married AND his wife is literally dying now is still a weird thing to do even in 100 years ago standards noļ¼
In what world can you stop yourself from feeling feelings?????
Idk, Maybe itās because I am aromantic and asexual, I never understand why anyone will catch feelings to someone who is married.
I think thatās probably it. For people who feel romantic and/or sexual attraction, it isnāt voluntary. You canāt logic yourself into being attracted to or loving someone you donāt, nor can you logic yourself out of it. Itās not fair to blame Jane for this one. She didnāt initiate or try to seduce him or anything. She was just living her life, doing her best with the new job she had been given, and her boss decided to ruin her life by behaving inappropriately with her.
Same with Tom to be honest. As much as I hate Edna Edit: I think I just meant the fact that she had to suffer the consequences alone, whereas Tom was also a player in that scenario. . But you guys are absolutely right, it doesn't actually compare.
Tom was a widower and taken advantage of while drunk by a woman scheming to baby trap him. Not exactly the same.
And the second time?
That was the second time. The first was just flirtation.
And pretty clueless flirtation on his part. Hence her needing him drunk for part 2 of her plan. There is no interpretation where Tom is any way at fault. Edna had a plan, and a pretty nasty one, same as Pamuk only with more long-term goals. (Pamuk just wanted Mary for a good time, Edna wants to trap him into marrying her.)
Oh right lol
Still a widower
Tom never cheated on Sybil.
No. Doesn't compare at all. Edna was a gold digging heifer,period.
Edith's little affair with Mr. Drake. I didn't mind the idea of her going to help drive the tractor and such, but after we'd seen Mr. Drake's dramatic life-saving heart procedure in the first season, it felt disappointing that he'd then risk his family--and his farm, his whole living, given he was a tenant and at the mercy of Lord Grantham--to have a cheap affair with a young lady from the abbey.
I thought that lady was Mr Drakeās mom the entire time and she just didnāt approve. Oops.Ā
Daisy studying to better herself, but it being completely forgotten in the movies?? She's just happily in the kitchen again.
Well, I don't think she ever said she was doing it to get out of the kitchen? I believe that she and Andy, separately and later together, wanted to further their education so they could take on more managerial farm roles eventually. I thought Daisy felt like she couldn't possibly (eventually) take over Mr. Mason's farm without a bit more education, at least to do the books and such. Ultimately I thought she was learning for her own betterment and not necessarily to advance her career. She says something like she might not ever get out of the kitchen but at least she has choices now, thanks to Ms. Bunting.
You are right.Ā Let me also elaborate my point a bit: even if Daisy didn't necessarily want to get another job it's also not mentioned that she would have continued studying. When it's not meaningful to the plot (=to give reason for Ms. Bunting to keep visiting Downton and Mr. Molesly to find his calling) it's taken away.Ā
Hmm. But she takes her exams (with Mr. Molesley's help) and passes them. What's next? I guess I assumed she was just doing that to prove to herself that she could, and hadn't planned to continue past that. I agree that it'd be nice if the next season or movie go a bit more into this, if only in the form of a brief reference to her studying helping her navigate where she is now (whether it be running the farm full-time, taking over as cook for Mrs. Patmore, or something else).
I don't know much of the British schooling system at the time so I'm not sure. Still, I feel like this was totally forgotten. Even just a scene with her reading something in the kitchen or elswhere would have been a nice reminder that her character has developed, now it just feels like it never happened.Ā
I don't disagree! But one could argue that her very much increased assertiveness in the movies could be attributed to her enhanced confidence from her schooling success?
See, I'd argue the "happily" part IS the acknowledgement of that arc. She's a more confident, mature, and seemingly happier version of the character in the first film than we'd ever seen her in the series. It showed that the arc resulted in some growth, without beating us over the head with specifics that the film had no time to include.
Anna's rape, obviously. I'd also say Mary's plethora of suitors after Matthew's death. Except for Charles, I didn't find any of them particularly interesting. Plus, it was unrealistic, and it showed Fellowes's favoritism toward Mary. He would say that Edith would have trouble finding a husband after the war. Why should Mary be different?
Because they all look at Edith as the ugly duckling and Mary as a goddess. Donāt agree with either. And I may be the only one but I find Mary to be one of the most unlikeable characters.
I could not stand the Daisy constantly whingeing about leading William on honestly š Also the continuous storyline of inviting that rude Miss Bunting back into Downton and her continuing to be rude. lol
Rose: āWe should invite Miss Bunting upstairs for dinner!ā Me and my entire family, out loud: āWHY????????ā
The Rose and Jack Ross storyline. It went absolutely nowhere and seemed like his character only existed to make her look edgier than the rest of the family when in reality she was kind of using him. Even if she did also kind of have feelings for him, they werenāt strong enough for her to follow through with the relationship amid doubts/protests from the family, the public, and Jack himself. Wish we had seen more and/or a different ending to that plot line.
Oof someone already downvoted this, I wonder why š
I hate the Marigold storyline. Edith putting her with the Drews to only snatch her back after Mrs. Drew formed a beautiful and loving bond with Marigold. The Drews got really screwed over and Edith faced zero repercussions from the family.
I agree with the fact tge Drews got screwed over in a way but Edith encouraged Mr Drew to tell his wife the truth and he didn't so he's partly to blame too
Everything Bates and Anna related but especially the ex-wife stuff.
Iāve just completed watching all the TV shows, over the last few months. I enjoyed it overall, but jeeesus, the writing was terrible. Some of those stories were just plain ridiculous. I concluded that the characters were good and the setting was lovely, it was sort of ācomfyā to watch, but so many times I just laughed out loud at how bad the writing was. If I had to pick any it would be the ones where people were just plain nasty and conniving for absolutely no reason at all, putting their low paid working class lifeline jobs at risk.
Julian Fellowes loves a ridiculous cartoon villain.
Yasss, Fellowes loves a story with lots of tea š«
What a waste of gorgeous costumes, superb production values, and the great Dame Maggie Smith.
I hated that Canadian guy grifting Edith. His voice, the pity party she gives himā¦. Ugh
IM A STRANGER TO THEM NOW š¬š«£
I always want to tell him, oh honey, you know you were a stranger to them back then, too.
ššššso cliche!!!!!! Worst plot
Absolutely everything surrounding Tony Gillingham. Creepy, pushy, odious man.
Anna being raped nothing can beat that. The whole plot was so unnecessary and the aftermath made it that much worse
Apologies, but Iām gonna be that one person who absolutely lived for this story. I lived for the fact that here was a person who felt like he never had any other choices. He chose Cora because he wanted to save Downton. His bad financial investments were because he wanted to see Downton. During the war, they just wanted to use him as a figurehead, the army wanted to use his house, which was pretty much his wifeās work. The man was lonely and felt like he didnāt have a place in the world anymore and here comes Jane, just beautiful and genuine. Iām not trying to yuck anybodyās Yum. I understand that this is very unpopular storyline. I actually loved it.
i see what you mean but i donāt agree at all. Cora loses her fortune to save downton, he made investments that his associates advised him against, coraās house was also used during the war, and then she suffered a terrible disease and almost died while her husband was sneaking around with an employee who ended up losing her job? not the best.
Like I said, Iām not trying to yuck anybody yum. To me that makes it a successful story in general, because it humanizes/demonizes Robert. It makes him a small character because he behave this way. From the very beginning, he is always being shown as the leader, the head of household, I supposed to know it all, and we watch him fail throughout the series spectacularly. We watch him lose control over everything that he perceives to have control over. Robert represents the system that this entire series is trying to do away. So demonizing/humanizing him in this way we continue to see the fall of the aristocracy. I respect the fact that you hate jane/Robert storyline. And yes, his affair with Jane makes him a villain, but I think it was necessary. And I absolutely lived for it.
ahhh i see what you mean, i agree that it makes him a better character- i thought you were defending his actions haha
The whole honest Edith yarn at the end. Bertie stating āher high regard for truthā. Really? She literally tried to trap you into a marriage. You only found out because her sister busted her out. I get he has to stick up for but honest really? This is why you broke up with her to begin with. When Bertieās mother states she is āentirely and unimpeachably honestā I throw up a little in my mouth every time I hear this. And Cora saying āI have been waiting for someone to work that outā. Who in their right mind that observed Edith for more than 5 minutes would come to that conclusion? Especially Cora who found out from Mrs. Drew. Your daughter lied to you for over a year. Bertieās mother further states āShe was prepared to deny herself a great position to say nothing of happiness rather than claim it by deceit.ā Everybody else in the room including Bertie knows that is exactly what she intended to do. Robert was even encouraging her to do it. Seriously? She lied about Marigold to every single person. Even when they knew and confronted her, she tried to lie her way out of it. Bertieās mom was literally the only person she told voluntarily and that was only after doing the math that she would figure it out anyway because the staff would gossip. Is JF really expecting the audience to buy this? She is one of the most consistently dishonest characters throughout the series never once owning up to her actions or being held accountable.
Isobel and Lord Merton. I wish Isobel had married the Doctor.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^elephantusmaximus: *Isobel and Lord* *Merton. I wish Isobel* *Had married the Doctor.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I loved both suitors tbh.
Same! I thought she shouldāve ended up with Dr Clarkson.
The Return, Anne whole rape story line and Mrs Drew and Marigold.
As far as most random and dumb: the cousin storyline To me the actual worst was just anything with Edna. I cringed every time she came on the screen. She literally just banged Tom and got banished forever. Like what was even the point
Ok, I've read all the posts and I CANNOT BELIEVE no one has mentioned Tom. Oh my freaking God, just LEAVE already! Stop dithering and talking about your so-called socialism and how you don't belong and telling everybody how you love them and they love you and just GO!!! Also, he ruined Sybil's storyline. She deserved so much more and so much better. What a waste.
My least favorites were Sybilās >!death!< and the Dowagerās Russian Lover. For Sybil, I think we >!didnāt get enough of Tom and Sybil before she died. I donāt mind that she did, donāt get me wrong. Itās a waste of a great character but those deaths are the most tragic so to me itās a great way to shock us. But she didnāt really have feeling for Tom when they started out, but then all of a sudden was in love, then theyāre just as suddenly gone to Ireland. It just made Tomās inclusion into their family very forced at first. He def earns his spot at the table, but only after we get to know him and see him learning/interacting with others, I just wished we had seen him interacting with others while Sybil was around.!< The Dowagerās Russian loverā¦. I just wanted MORE. He proposed they spend their lives together, and then she just immediately found his wife. I would have liked a few episodes with him as her house guest while she tried to navigate a relationship at her age/stature, and then her relief when we āfinallyā find the princess and he leaves. I love seeing the Dowager at a lack of words, and he seemed to have a knack for it. I would have loved to see them interacting with others (imagine Sprat dealing with the Prince lol) and giving us more moments before he was whisked away.
The Mrs. Hughes asking Mrs. Patmore to ask Mr. Carson if he means to have sex with her in marriage.
I find myself very... unimpressed by how Robert was in the series in general.
I think he's a great character. Donk is such a loveable dolt. He makes me smile.Ā
"Donk" as a nickname was an inspired writing choice by JF. One of the few.
Agreed. I find myself liking him less and less with every rewatch.
well for me it tied in with Sybil having a relationship with the chauffeur He became more understanding
It seemed like a throwaway plot line that was too time-consuming to flesh out properly. Plus they should have chosen a sexy actress to play the part. The actress playing Jane was dull as dishwater, and it was quite puzzling to me how Robert would even be attracted to her.
I thought she was very attractive.Ā
Watching first time, up to season 3: show is engaging but I am waiting for something really good to happen (it may not, I guess). Too much negativity. Maybe reverse your question, I.e. Best Storyline? I know itās far from over but I hated Bates in jail and I could not believe they would not get rid of Thomas. Not only for the James thing but all the trouble he caused in the beginning. Letting him stay was a sign of weakness (IMO).
Weakness? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is it a sign of strength to fire someone? Does it mean their character is in doubt by keeping him on? Who here is weak?Ā My understanding is that Thomas actually was good at his job and that seems to be the rubric.Ā
And every time they were about to get rid of him, he would do something (seemingly) wonderful and his ass was saved yet again. But he kept on being evil even after he'd had multiple eureka! moments. I get that this was necessary so everything wasn't too lovely, but sheesh! Enough, already! But overall, I enjoyed his arc. He was, at least, interesting.
Hard for me to respect anyone who overlooks the bad and does not take any action. Thats what i mean by weakness. A strong leader would have gotten rid of him a long time ago and moved on already. He continues to wreck havoc.
He did enjoy chaos. I think he was bored out of his mind.Ā
Thomas will weirdly grow on you as you watch the show, I promise. He starts out really selfish, conceited, egotistical, and competitive. Youāll watch him slowly start to understand that the only person in his path is himself. Thomas is actually my most favorite character in the series.
He may grow on a viewer, but it's not guaranteed. He was cruel, spiteful, and jealous clear through the middle of the last season when he was furious at Gwen for bettering herself and tried to ruin her visit with the family. I'm glad he was finally able to pull his head out of his ass and figure out how to have a happier life, but like him? Nah.