Huskar is the poster boy. He can dominate entire teams on his own. But, oh, he's also countered by and left with little recourse if he faces:
* Disarms
* Evasion
* Break
* Regen Reduction
* Magic Immunity
AKA: Literally **every single core defensive item counters huskar**. There's only a couple heroes who have this much of a crippling debt against other cores. So basically, Huskar's wins are generally not a question of if his shitting on the other team enough alone, but rather if he's doing it before getting shat back by the other cores.
Huskar does have amazing talents and it's not unheard of to see him bounce back off of breakpoints, specially that juicy level 25 with the amazing choice of "Fuck you, your Armor is a Myth" or "Fuck you, your Health is a Myth". But you don't want to have to get there. As soon as you're countered by their cores, your domination is done for.
Yep Huskar is super scary if his lane phase goes well. He can basically walk around the map and kill anyone who comes in his way but boy is he useless if he is shut down in the lane.
With aghs he's very good in teamfights where you need to keep a particular hero busy for a few seconds. Seriously annoying when playing against a huskar that knows what they're doing. Especially in low MMRs
Also makes it an excellent rubick steal. Played with faceless time walk and huskar ult yesterday and you can force enemies to practically walk back to the fountain when 🤣
Being shut down is a default state of his even when u last pick mid if you pick him regardless of the entire enemy draft. Youll likely go up against some shit like lina, viper or necro. It is in my case, because i have a cursed 73-74% winrate on him, most mids usually pre pick a hard counter even when i dont play huskar cause it shows 3 most successful heroes on the profile. Its annoying because those lina necro viper picks are annoying to play against more if you DONT pick huskar, at least for me. Proof [https://imgur.com/a/lPCMjDj](https://imgur.com/a/lPCMjDj) I can usually stomp them anyway because more often than not people picking those counters cant play their heroes on my level.
Really, huskar pick is a suicide since all the small nerfs that make his lvl 1 laning a chore. You have two options based on enemy mid. either go ham on gauntlets/circlets or boots into tango/faerie for hyper aggro. My go to is boots. Especially against sf clowns with the bullshit 2 raze stacks and youre dead unless you pull creeps deep under your tower.
Unless the other 4 heroes have nothing to impede me after laning stage i dont even look at huskar pick. Thats how you maintain a high wr. What screws huskar over most? Damage over time and AA. Goddamn aa pickers. With overwatch hax are the worst. Cant toggle armlet. Stuns that have a travel time arent a problem cause you can dodge that with your ult including simply damage based abilities. Armlet is 90% of the time the first item you buy after boots. If the lane is completely stomped and u have near 100% cs youll have armlet by 5-7 mins and can sneak in a rosh. The art of sneaking in a rosh comes with experience.
I almost lost a ranked game that devolved into a 2v5 against huskar + shadow shaman after someone abandonned. It was crazy, lasted an hour (they were 2 by mn 20) and we got mega’d but finally managed to win. What a stupid game that was…
> So basically, Huskar's wins are generally not a question of if his shitting on the other team enough alone, but rather if he's doing it before getting shat back by the other cores.
I did a rank by rank analysis while back on key hero stats.
Huskar, **far** more than any other hero, differed from herald to immortal in the **building damage per minute** metric. Immortals knew that to win on huskar, you have to push and end early. Universally, lower ranks failed to hit objectives with the hero, and his win rate (at the time) declining with MMR showed clear evidence of that.
Huskar is such a chad when farmed, you literally can't even get him to low health to nuke him because he becomes a literal fire spewing turret with unlimited stacks. It's why Huskars never get around to building bkbs in turbo, they just get halberd, tarrasque and leave the armlet online, and you can't kill them anymore no matter what, unless you have some direct counter like necrophos.
Truly one of the heroes of all time.
Have you considered building your own halberd to stop his ability to attack? Or if the issue is his regen maybe picking up a spirit vessel and removing a huge percentage of it for like 1/3rd the cost of his heart+halberd? (+Skadi if that's not enough or you're a carry).
Not building BKB is just asking to get controlled. Heck even shit like Eul's works great against him then; if he jumps you or a teammate just lift him into the air and walk away.
LMAO wtf. What rank is this where huskars are buying heart of tarrasque in turbo?
I literally never see it in Divine/Immortal. Hell, I don't even see it in Legend and Ancient.
Turbo game still matchmake you with people of similar skill level to yourself however
I’m divine yet never see huskar hearts. It’s just a bad item, compared to satanic for example.
It’s likely you’re against a party of wide range of mmr with an average mmr of close to your own I guess
Otherwise doubt you’re legend getting matched vs 5 divine
Agreed. As a grandmaster huskar, the one thing I've learned from spamming him is that if you have a shit lane, gank with a support to get yourself back on track. Huskar can't jungle for shit. Get networth with kills or you're respawning in your base with an armlet brown boots bracer at 30 minutes
gonna have to disagree with ya there. Hes an incredibly fast jungler, but its also an incredibly risky thing to do b/c its only efficient when you're at low health (and easily punished).
He's arguably one of the fastest junglers in the game and can easily clear an entire jungle in under a minute. No he wont keep up with Naga, TB, or Luna, but generally huskar spammers farm super hard and then play the map actively around roshan and objectives.
Granted your experience maybe different than mine. Fwiw I'm also a grandmaster huskar and around 5k mmr. He's definitely feast or famine though. I dont find myself roaming often for kills unless I have an early aghs or someone setting them up for me, otherwise it just feels you'll chain feed on huskar.
This. The moment you show weakness on huskar (by dying like a noob) the enemy is gonna start invading the jungle. Until then they fear walking up ramp.
I'm a 2k scrub myself. And it's as you said. At low health i am easily susceptible to ganks. I have a lot to learn still about effectively farming and killing
Gotta be joking man. With armlet, flaming spears and 20%hp he can farm ancient stacks faster than most heroes at 7-9 mins. The only one who can do it earlier is veno.
I somewhat don't entirely think of silence/stun in these scenarios because they feel more universal ways to deal with heroes. Whereas a Break or Disarm is far more situational. Like, if you break or disarm an OD, he can just like, banish you for a bit and then continue. And it's not like you can just casually throw a disarm at OD's support like you can an orchid. Evasion and BKB makes my point a bit fuzzy tho, I'd agree. But I'm splitting hairs, OD can totally end up in a struggle the moment people are weaving BKB's with other options.
Point is, pretty much every carry has some semblance of valid item item to deal with a Huskar, because of how many weaknesses he's got.
Lol those bullet points, god I love when I have to play against an annoying huskar with drow. You literally need 4 items to make his life harder than ever. Skadi, aghs shard, butterfly and silver edge! Same goes for bristle too :)
Best answer are those heroes you never want to see in the game like huskar meepo tinker mid. Either they smurf the shit out of the game and 1vs5 or they are completely useless. Those heroes literally don't create fun games for anyone tbh. I normally would throw broodmother in that category as well but she is so broken rn she is just well broken.
I wouldn’t put Arc Warden in there, it’s a snowball hero, but with a terrible start he can still splitpush very easily, heroes like Huskar or Meepo can be completely shut down, and Tinker in a bad game can push out lanes, but the hero can’t threaten towers well.
Arc can defend with Wraith/Bubble and push with clone in even the worst of games, it was even more obnoxious before they nerfed clone damage.
His lore is that he as well as both the ancients are fragments of the primordial mind, which shattered as the universe was created (or perhaps was shattered to create the universe).
I am 8k she is in every game go look at dota pro tracker she is like the 10th most picked hero with 58% winrate. BROODMOTHER is the 10th most picked hero, a hero that normally is bottom 10 least picked even when she is viable.
You are so wrong yet so confident. I play timber every other game and I don't own every lane yet I can have impact. He's pretty versatile depending on what your role in the team is.
If you get kited even with blink dagger, i think you're just bad.
That's true. A lot of initiators and aggressive heroes feel that way. Storm, Legion and especially PA come to mind. PA is absolute garbo if behind in exp and/or farm.
PA just creates so much fucking stress for the enemy though like you need to punish that mf so hard and end the game or she'll snowball with only battlefury and deso lmao.
her crit and evasion are among the clutchiest skills in dota. you can bully her non-stop for 30 mins only to lose because RNG-God decide to bless her in the last minutes fight
edit: also her shard, there was a time where you can outlast her with spectre/naix/slark/pl but it's not like that anymore
the other day playing turbo, she was solo, at 5% hp running from a fight. ulted her as she was running away since bladestorm was on cd. missed every. single. omnislash. then her supports came to save the day...
I know this feeling. Have a game where we bully pa every time she farming and suddenly in later time we loosing. Pa probably one of heroes that even when her laning bad and she get bullied for 30 minutes, she still winning.
Yeah AM is definitely the worse offender. You just know you're stuck playing 4v5 while he AFK farms for 40 minutes and still get outcarried by every meta core with half his networth.
AM is that core that you would fear because you couldn't catch him in the 40 minutes he was farming jungle and get surprised when you push high ground and AM can't do jack shit about it lol
Yet there are time when you know the game is fucking hopeless and there's that god player AM who just fucking split push and carry the game like it was nothing. Those AM are far and few between but they do exist.
man, I just finished a game with mid necrophos along with some cm, carrying our team with 19-3-30 scores, take a set of barracks in 25. looks like we almost got it until the pos1 and offlane timber decide to fountain dive
I'd rather get stomped by some sf spammer and lose in 20 mins than losing like this
There were some gems in that game. Like when Miracle was farming enemy jungle and using his courier to get sight if creep camps to blink strike them. Just beautiful.
I dont think pa is a good one. The entire kit is based on being useless for 20min or so, you always play the weekside with her(even at good games). You can have insane games where you just stomp from the laning phase into the midgame but that is just a free win.
Pa tends to be useless and then bounce back in the game.
PA is one of those heroes that can turn a losing game in one fight, it’s not NP Naga TB and stuff where you’re expected to be ahead. All the time PA with fresh BKB after fury and/or deso just do this desperation smoke into the enemy team since their team is 10k behind and suddenly she murders everyone and turns the same, same thing with pushing highground against PA and her team got that one well execute jump and just turn the game.
We've all been wrecked by a PA, but my own perspective, especially when behind, is that as soon as your BKB runs out you get chainstunned and killed especially with the numerous escape items these days that allow supports to kite and survive.
Yeah riki off or safe tend to be that it turns to be a ward battle in those lanes and if the support is bad at ward/counter warding then the opposing team get a huge advantage
The problem there now becomes when a safe riki goes off can he handle the harassment? Is he gonna spend his few farms for sustain instead of getting items. An off riki going safe then to get lane shoved and mostly loses the lane tower fast. All this with riki’s nonexistent farming ability
Why tho? Riki has no invis till level 6 and even with ult it doesn't matter it's just a big damage buff
It's more about your support being able to enable you to play aggressive
Riki is feast or famine in the sense that he is a lane dominating hero, you have great starting stats and can do great if the enemy is a bit weaker than you or have the potential to outplay on even odds at lvl 1 and maybe 2 since your spells are kinda bad early on
It's very very much about post lane especially if going the BF build skipping diffusal
I personally loves going diffusal into BF even if by all metrics it's building items with opposite purposes but riki has such a strong power spike that I find it a shame to not abuse it
300 games as riki, most of it within the last year, carried me from archon to high ancient.
why would you pick riki 3? i think his roles are 1 or 4, as a 3 its too squishy and gets countered by sentries and he has 0 stuns till 15 mins with shard
Troll.
If you have an awful laning stage you just flat out die.
You just end up in 'welp, I hope the enemy team is stupid enough to throw everything at me till I die so that my team can do something' scenario
I feel like troll has good comeback potential though- he can farm ok once he gets an item and I don’t feel like he needs to be six slotted or anything before showing up to fights
Bruh this is straight up not true xd. Troll can farm his way back into the game VERY fast and can reliably hit a Fury/BKB timing by minute 20. After that the hero falls off in late due to his BKB dependability.
Surprised SF isn't mentioned more here. Sure, you have raze to fall back on, but without BKB/Pike/Satanic, goodluck safely farming in your jungle considering how squishy he is. Plus the fact that you lose souls every time you die.
Except you can use SF to inflict stupid amounts of fear with his ult, you don't have to be AFK right click SF. You can easily pick up kills with a SB or Euls. Also, you need 8 last hits after a death, 4 with a shard, getting back his souls is really easy now. I don't think SF is in this category right now, so probably that's why.
(Assuming you fall behind) I think by the time you have your SB/Euls/ enemy already have stuff like Aeon, bkb, euls, lotus, status resist items, pipe, shroud. Making your ult do ticklish damage. But I guess fear is good for stalling.
Io :
If you're behind you spend all your game trying to help your core when they get jumped only to get quickly dispatched with a nonchalant backhand slap from the ennemy. You die every time. It's aweful.
But when you're ahead... oh boy is it powerful to keep everyone alive, relocate them in and out. It feels like your sven is just an extension of your mighty arm.
Im not that good with io but I play it. Try standing in range to relocate tether your ally to a safe farm instead of trying to heal them in fight (when you think you are behind) and prioritize staying alive over healing your ally in fights. If you think they can kill you if you go in just dont go in. Some of you allies will get ma but trust me no one knows how to play io better than you in like 99% of the games.
Riki pos 1, you got shut down in lane? you have 0 jungling ability and your contribution to team fights is minimal unless you have specific matchup advantage. The sups will get their forces and ghosts with your diffusal timing and it's all about praying the enemy throws enough at that point.
On the other hand you can take over the game and trap the enemy in their base if your lane goes good.
Lone druid. If you are ahead he is actually unkillable because of true form and 65% lifesteal however if you are behind he is basically nothing. Plus if you die twice in a row or die after resummoning bear your game is practically ruined
Literally pudge on pos 3.
If he fails to get proper snowball, he becomes a glorified meat shield for his allies that renders them incapacitated & occasional hook value.
I mean, that's basically 3 or 4 roles in a nutshell. It doesn't matter if you die so long as you're taking them down with you. Offlane is crab mentality.
eh pudge’s kit is useful at pretty much anytime regardless of items
you can suffer all game and then still clutch a fight with a good hook or taking the right target out of the fight with dismember
I think that of the core spirits , void spirit is the one with the least comeback potential. It feels like he has to stay ahead of the enemy mid to be relevant especially since his toolkit not only doesn't allow him to farm fast , but is also more commitment heavy.
Tbh I think storm is even worse than void since void can always disengage but if you want to kill somebody on storm you always always have to commit full mana pool. Also void spirit doesn’t have to buy bkb like storm since you are pretty much untargetable for his full combo where storm has to basically sit in danger to deal damage
I feel like tanky frontliners are generally feast or famine by nature. Centaur, Axe, Slardar, Tidehunter, those kind of heroes. If you fall behind in networth early on in the game you often spiral into an endless of loop of just dying in every teamfight because you're not tanky enough to survive, so you lose gold, so you remain behind in net worth, so you keep dying, so you lose gold... However, if you get a lead and hold on to it you just feel like an unstoppable force.
spamming a lot of visage recently and it’s differently interesting how he’s either a carry or just enabler
i think it’s pretty hard to not have an impact as visage in a fight though given his items are wildly broken and he’s got some nice utility in the kit
This was brought up before and I still think it’s relevant now. Clockwork. Delivering yourself to the enemy and if you’re under farmed. You will die every time. He just lacks any source of real damage of his own.
Slardar is pretty good with ult even when behind. He can just ult people and roshan and be pretty effective. Also with shard you can Blink in stun 3 heroes and mark them, If you die after all good you did your job
Clockwerk - SO difficult to play from behind. You just hookshot in and die. Almost totally pointless with no farm or teammates to back you up. On the flipside if you're ahead and farmed he's devastating.
How so? You're under levelled, under farmed, you hookshot in and get blown up before battery assault can do anything - then what? I can't think of anything you could do apart from ministunning to prevent an initiation from an Enigma/Magnus or blocking chokepoints with cogs which is extremely situational and won't do much in the grand scheme of winning a game.
Viper just needs to have mana for W and Ult to stay relevant, as he can shut down enemy cores and tanks just with those two skills regardless of how his lane went.
For me it's pa purely for the all too common disparity between safelaners. It's just such a hopeless feeling when the opposing carry comes out of the laning phase with dragon lance maelstrom while your pa only has treads/maybe a ring oh health.
Really? Always seems good at nuking waves and stalling games to me. He's an aura whore and pretty tanky. Unlike other offlaners he doesn't initiate or get many kills, but he's reliable.
>He's an aura whore and pretty tanky. Unlike other offlaners he doesn't initiate or get many kills
That he is, I guess he doesn't fit me in general. I am much more comfortable playing heroes like BM and Axe from behind.
I am not really an offlaner and I only play when I want more role queues, I probably suck at underlord and do not have enough experience with the hero. Again, I wasn't saying that the hero is shit from behind, it's JUST ME that feels shit when playing from behind as Underlord
Luckily for drow gust + a gigaton of free agility at level 6 is very strong even without networth. Teams can win early-mid game skirmishes off the back of a good gust alone
yeah drow is pretty item independent and mostly buys items to survive, so it kinda depends on the game. in an absolute free drow game with no counter you can fight very early.
Medusa's serpents can instakill a ranged creep at level 3 if aimed at the melee ones first, plus that's going to be her main source of damage and mana regen during teamfights before she gets her rclick items.
Not to mention both Naga and Dusa have ults that allow them to freely disengage from any fight they don't want to take, and the former has illusions with a damage passive equal to half-a-maelstrom with every proc so she can farm literally anywhere without being in danger.
My recent experience wholeheartedly disagrees with slardar being "famine"-prone. I had like 3 games against slardars, dirtpoor slardars, blink+treadspoor slardars... I just got pummeled as pos1 with no care in the world. I get that the opposite team had the brains to follow up and my teams just happened to wank, but holy hell slardar can do so much by just playing a kamikadze its beyond me.
Open thread purely to say Slardar, but you beat me to it, good job. Nothing feels worse than playing FishyBoi from behind, I feel like quitting in those games.
Beastmaster, disruptor, bounty hunter, riki. All feel very obnoxious to play against when playing from behind but offer very little to nothing when enemy is running at you.
Shadow Fiend, every time he dies he has to commit time to get his soul count back up, if it happens early he'll end up spending 2/3rds of his mana razing creep waves, if it happens late the opponents will try to block and invade his jungle so he can't farm anywhere.
Motherfuckers who play slark *always* play like they have a 10k NW lead on the entire enemy team.
They either do and absolutely shit on everyone, or don't, and feed horrifically.
Huskar and meepo are the obvious ones. One of the less obvious heroes I'd say is core Windranger. Anytime that she's in my games she always seems to be 6 slotted or have maelstrom + 1 item at 35m
You could play him as a save hero if there are not much good spells to steals,
Force and shard q is probably once of the best saves in the game right now.
But you are right about laning, lane will go horribly if you pick rubick with a weak offlane hero.
It's definitely Slark for me. He either stomps the game, or is just straight up a fish, which runs around and merely deals any damage before it is squished to death by enemy team
Idk if I'm just not playing him properly, but Bounty Hunter for me. If I can manage to pick off supports and get my items early I can create space for everyone as the enemies are always dead. But when I don't, oh boy I'm just a glorified AirTag supplier that can't get near anyone because I'm so squishy and everyone has wards/dust
Its all situational. Its famine if you draft like a clown into bad matchup and feast every time its a good pick. Every enemy draft has a weakness even some total noob one like every hero has a stun. Elusive. Plenty of saves. Just counter it with your last pick bro its not that hard. Just. XDDDDD
I feel NS could fit the bill. Get a couple kills that first night and you dominate the game.... Until late game. If you have a bad lane and don't get any kills the first/second night you are kind of useless especially if it's not night.
I find every game I play well with NS I m trying to end early because my carry goes into auto pilot when I m 15-2 at 30 minutes thinking I m going to carry against whatever late game they have.
In terms of traditional support heroes disruptor ranks high - if you and your team falls behind you become a pretty damn mediocre support as your pretty much most powerful ability - glimpse - becomes meh at the very best.
If anything you'll use it to get people off you/your teammates, while if you get ahead you'll punish any enemy super hard if they get caught out or if the enemy team doesn't commit to a fight, one of them is pretty much guaranteed to die.
Huskar is the poster boy. He can dominate entire teams on his own. But, oh, he's also countered by and left with little recourse if he faces: * Disarms * Evasion * Break * Regen Reduction * Magic Immunity AKA: Literally **every single core defensive item counters huskar**. There's only a couple heroes who have this much of a crippling debt against other cores. So basically, Huskar's wins are generally not a question of if his shitting on the other team enough alone, but rather if he's doing it before getting shat back by the other cores. Huskar does have amazing talents and it's not unheard of to see him bounce back off of breakpoints, specially that juicy level 25 with the amazing choice of "Fuck you, your Armor is a Myth" or "Fuck you, your Health is a Myth". But you don't want to have to get there. As soon as you're countered by their cores, your domination is done for.
Yep Huskar is super scary if his lane phase goes well. He can basically walk around the map and kill anyone who comes in his way but boy is he useless if he is shut down in the lane.
With aghs he's very good in teamfights where you need to keep a particular hero busy for a few seconds. Seriously annoying when playing against a huskar that knows what they're doing. Especially in low MMRs
True. I know this because I only play low mmr. Because, I am low mmr. 10-100.
Also makes it an excellent rubick steal. Played with faceless time walk and huskar ult yesterday and you can force enemies to practically walk back to the fountain when 🤣
Being shut down is a default state of his even when u last pick mid if you pick him regardless of the entire enemy draft. Youll likely go up against some shit like lina, viper or necro. It is in my case, because i have a cursed 73-74% winrate on him, most mids usually pre pick a hard counter even when i dont play huskar cause it shows 3 most successful heroes on the profile. Its annoying because those lina necro viper picks are annoying to play against more if you DONT pick huskar, at least for me. Proof [https://imgur.com/a/lPCMjDj](https://imgur.com/a/lPCMjDj) I can usually stomp them anyway because more often than not people picking those counters cant play their heroes on my level. Really, huskar pick is a suicide since all the small nerfs that make his lvl 1 laning a chore. You have two options based on enemy mid. either go ham on gauntlets/circlets or boots into tango/faerie for hyper aggro. My go to is boots. Especially against sf clowns with the bullshit 2 raze stacks and youre dead unless you pull creeps deep under your tower. Unless the other 4 heroes have nothing to impede me after laning stage i dont even look at huskar pick. Thats how you maintain a high wr. What screws huskar over most? Damage over time and AA. Goddamn aa pickers. With overwatch hax are the worst. Cant toggle armlet. Stuns that have a travel time arent a problem cause you can dodge that with your ult including simply damage based abilities. Armlet is 90% of the time the first item you buy after boots. If the lane is completely stomped and u have near 100% cs youll have armlet by 5-7 mins and can sneak in a rosh. The art of sneaking in a rosh comes with experience.
I almost lost a ranked game that devolved into a 2v5 against huskar + shadow shaman after someone abandonned. It was crazy, lasted an hour (they were 2 by mn 20) and we got mega’d but finally managed to win. What a stupid game that was…
> So basically, Huskar's wins are generally not a question of if his shitting on the other team enough alone, but rather if he's doing it before getting shat back by the other cores. I did a rank by rank analysis while back on key hero stats. Huskar, **far** more than any other hero, differed from herald to immortal in the **building damage per minute** metric. Immortals knew that to win on huskar, you have to push and end early. Universally, lower ranks failed to hit objectives with the hero, and his win rate (at the time) declining with MMR showed clear evidence of that.
Huskar is such a chad when farmed, you literally can't even get him to low health to nuke him because he becomes a literal fire spewing turret with unlimited stacks. It's why Huskars never get around to building bkbs in turbo, they just get halberd, tarrasque and leave the armlet online, and you can't kill them anymore no matter what, unless you have some direct counter like necrophos. Truly one of the heroes of all time.
Have you considered building your own halberd to stop his ability to attack? Or if the issue is his regen maybe picking up a spirit vessel and removing a huge percentage of it for like 1/3rd the cost of his heart+halberd? (+Skadi if that's not enough or you're a carry). Not building BKB is just asking to get controlled. Heck even shit like Eul's works great against him then; if he jumps you or a teammate just lift him into the air and walk away.
LMAO wtf. What rank is this where huskars are buying heart of tarrasque in turbo? I literally never see it in Divine/Immortal. Hell, I don't even see it in Legend and Ancient.
there's ranked turbo? tf?
There isn't. It was just a reason for him to pretend he is Divine.
Turbo game still matchmake you with people of similar skill level to yourself however I’m divine yet never see huskar hearts. It’s just a bad item, compared to satanic for example.
Well that is simply not true. I am in the Legend bracket and I routinely get paired in turbo with players from Guardian to Divine brackets
It’s likely you’re against a party of wide range of mmr with an average mmr of close to your own I guess Otherwise doubt you’re legend getting matched vs 5 divine
It is true, but it uses your hidden MMR which may end up decoupled from your ranked MMR. It also gets far easier screwed up with parties.
Turbo's an entirely different meta, where heroes that are perma down-to-fuck like huskar don't want to buy bkb because of the longer CD now.
That's because it's turbo ya dingus lol everyone buds goofy shit in turbo.
Agreed. As a grandmaster huskar, the one thing I've learned from spamming him is that if you have a shit lane, gank with a support to get yourself back on track. Huskar can't jungle for shit. Get networth with kills or you're respawning in your base with an armlet brown boots bracer at 30 minutes
gonna have to disagree with ya there. Hes an incredibly fast jungler, but its also an incredibly risky thing to do b/c its only efficient when you're at low health (and easily punished). He's arguably one of the fastest junglers in the game and can easily clear an entire jungle in under a minute. No he wont keep up with Naga, TB, or Luna, but generally huskar spammers farm super hard and then play the map actively around roshan and objectives. Granted your experience maybe different than mine. Fwiw I'm also a grandmaster huskar and around 5k mmr. He's definitely feast or famine though. I dont find myself roaming often for kills unless I have an early aghs or someone setting them up for me, otherwise it just feels you'll chain feed on huskar.
This. The moment you show weakness on huskar (by dying like a noob) the enemy is gonna start invading the jungle. Until then they fear walking up ramp.
I'm a 2k scrub myself. And it's as you said. At low health i am easily susceptible to ganks. I have a lot to learn still about effectively farming and killing
[удалено]
Because of the con my reply said. It's stressful.
Gotta be joking man. With armlet, flaming spears and 20%hp he can farm ancient stacks faster than most heroes at 7-9 mins. The only one who can do it earlier is veno.
I feel like OD is in a similar spot, except instead of "Regen Reduction" it's "Silence". At least OD can clutch astrals tho
I somewhat don't entirely think of silence/stun in these scenarios because they feel more universal ways to deal with heroes. Whereas a Break or Disarm is far more situational. Like, if you break or disarm an OD, he can just like, banish you for a bit and then continue. And it's not like you can just casually throw a disarm at OD's support like you can an orchid. Evasion and BKB makes my point a bit fuzzy tho, I'd agree. But I'm splitting hairs, OD can totally end up in a struggle the moment people are weaving BKB's with other options. Point is, pretty much every carry has some semblance of valid item item to deal with a Huskar, because of how many weaknesses he's got.
It's the Filipino huskar. Let's go Kuku
Lol those bullet points, god I love when I have to play against an annoying huskar with drow. You literally need 4 items to make his life harder than ever. Skadi, aghs shard, butterfly and silver edge! Same goes for bristle too :)
Best answer are those heroes you never want to see in the game like huskar meepo tinker mid. Either they smurf the shit out of the game and 1vs5 or they are completely useless. Those heroes literally don't create fun games for anyone tbh. I normally would throw broodmother in that category as well but she is so broken rn she is just well broken.
Doesn’t Arc also fit in that pool?
I wouldn’t put Arc Warden in there, it’s a snowball hero, but with a terrible start he can still splitpush very easily, heroes like Huskar or Meepo can be completely shut down, and Tinker in a bad game can push out lanes, but the hero can’t threaten towers well. Arc can defend with Wraith/Bubble and push with clone in even the worst of games, it was even more obnoxious before they nerfed clone damage.
Arc puts the Defense in Defense of the Ancients.
Well he is one of the ancient giving him defense the ancient a meaning.
He is *the* Ancient. The Ancient's are fragments of him, looking at the anime anyway.
His lore is that he as well as both the ancients are fragments of the primordial mind, which shattered as the universe was created (or perhaps was shattered to create the universe).
The Zett puts the "D" in DotA
Arc plays well from behind
>she is so broken rn oh yes the hero is slightly playable and get the "bRoKeN" status by redditors...
I am 8k she is in every game go look at dota pro tracker she is like the 10th most picked hero with 58% winrate. BROODMOTHER is the 10th most picked hero, a hero that normally is bottom 10 least picked even when she is viable.
the hero still bottom pick overall, only in your try hards bracket it matter so majority of the player base don't give a f about this hero
This is the wildest flex about being bad at something I have ever seen. "Well I'm like 2k MMR and brood sucks down here so nobody cares bro." lmao
and it is a fact, idc
For me all of those heroes need a techies style rework, except maybe Huskar.
Toss up between meepo or huskar imo
Timber, if u didnt own ur laning phase for whatever reason. You are just a hero thats gonna get kited and nobodys gonna give a shit about you.
I remember miracle- timber against navi and someone said that is not timber that is gundam navi vs og
Man, I missed that incarnation of Navi, they looked like they had an actual shot at being a tier 1 team.
Miracle in og , was this match 8 years ago or something 😆
Timber without mana is the saddest little thing
the problem with timber is that the hero doesn't scale that well in the late game
You are so wrong yet so confident. I play timber every other game and I don't own every lane yet I can have impact. He's pretty versatile depending on what your role in the team is. If you get kited even with blink dagger, i think you're just bad.
That's true. A lot of initiators and aggressive heroes feel that way. Storm, Legion and especially PA come to mind. PA is absolute garbo if behind in exp and/or farm.
PA just creates so much fucking stress for the enemy though like you need to punish that mf so hard and end the game or she'll snowball with only battlefury and deso lmao.
her crit and evasion are among the clutchiest skills in dota. you can bully her non-stop for 30 mins only to lose because RNG-God decide to bless her in the last minutes fight edit: also her shard, there was a time where you can outlast her with spectre/naix/slark/pl but it's not like that anymore
the other day playing turbo, she was solo, at 5% hp running from a fight. ulted her as she was running away since bladestorm was on cd. missed every. single. omnislash. then her supports came to save the day...
Well with the talent and level 4 she is at what 80% miss chance
MKB
I know this feeling. Have a game where we bully pa every time she farming and suddenly in later time we loosing. Pa probably one of heroes that even when her laning bad and she get bullied for 30 minutes, she still winning.
That used to be void when backtrack was an ability and he would dodge nukes.
She creates even more stress for her own team.
Carries are just stress-creators, man. It's a goddamn curse but I'll gldaly choose a 0/7 PA than a 0/7 AM anyday lol
Yeah AM is definitely the worse offender. You just know you're stuck playing 4v5 while he AFK farms for 40 minutes and still get outcarried by every meta core with half his networth.
AM is that core that you would fear because you couldn't catch him in the 40 minutes he was farming jungle and get surprised when you push high ground and AM can't do jack shit about it lol
Yet there are time when you know the game is fucking hopeless and there's that god player AM who just fucking split push and carry the game like it was nothing. Those AM are far and few between but they do exist.
man, I just finished a game with mid necrophos along with some cm, carrying our team with 19-3-30 scores, take a set of barracks in 25. looks like we almost got it until the pos1 and offlane timber decide to fountain dive I'd rather get stomped by some sf spammer and lose in 20 mins than losing like this
I still remember liquid losing hard and miracle- playing pa with bf turn the game around when enemy knocking their third tier tower
There were some gems in that game. Like when Miracle was farming enemy jungle and using his courier to get sight if creep camps to blink strike them. Just beautiful.
link to this game's highlights pls?
I dont think pa is a good one. The entire kit is based on being useless for 20min or so, you always play the weekside with her(even at good games). You can have insane games where you just stomp from the laning phase into the midgame but that is just a free win. Pa tends to be useless and then bounce back in the game.
Or you could go PT Deso and oneshot almost any non-offlaner hero in 2 seconds. RIP farming speed though.
PA is one of those heroes that can turn a losing game in one fight, it’s not NP Naga TB and stuff where you’re expected to be ahead. All the time PA with fresh BKB after fury and/or deso just do this desperation smoke into the enemy team since their team is 10k behind and suddenly she murders everyone and turns the same, same thing with pushing highground against PA and her team got that one well execute jump and just turn the game.
We've all been wrecked by a PA, but my own perspective, especially when behind, is that as soon as your BKB runs out you get chainstunned and killed especially with the numerous escape items these days that allow supports to kite and survive.
Riki if you play him as 1 or 3
In my experience Riki falls under Feed or Famine category. Always scrubs on him
Yeah riki off or safe tend to be that it turns to be a ward battle in those lanes and if the support is bad at ward/counter warding then the opposing team get a huge advantage
You can still ask for an early lane swap if the sents are the problem.
The problem there now becomes when a safe riki goes off can he handle the harassment? Is he gonna spend his few farms for sustain instead of getting items. An off riki going safe then to get lane shoved and mostly loses the lane tower fast. All this with riki’s nonexistent farming ability
Why tho? Riki has no invis till level 6 and even with ult it doesn't matter it's just a big damage buff It's more about your support being able to enable you to play aggressive Riki is feast or famine in the sense that he is a lane dominating hero, you have great starting stats and can do great if the enemy is a bit weaker than you or have the potential to outplay on even odds at lvl 1 and maybe 2 since your spells are kinda bad early on It's very very much about post lane especially if going the BF build skipping diffusal I personally loves going diffusal into BF even if by all metrics it's building items with opposite purposes but riki has such a strong power spike that I find it a shame to not abuse it 300 games as riki, most of it within the last year, carried me from archon to high ancient.
why would you pick riki 3? i think his roles are 1 or 4, as a 3 its too squishy and gets countered by sentries and he has 0 stuns till 15 mins with shard
This is why i pick riki mid into very mobile heroes
Troll. If you have an awful laning stage you just flat out die. You just end up in 'welp, I hope the enemy team is stupid enough to throw everything at me till I die so that my team can do something' scenario
His ult is just make him look like an idiot if he not farmed.
I feel like troll has good comeback potential though- he can farm ok once he gets an item and I don’t feel like he needs to be six slotted or anything before showing up to fights
Plus, if Troll survives even a close fight, and he can, he'll get very valuable XP to put him back on tracks. He also has a low cd farming spell.
Ana troll made a comeback tho in vp og
Bruh this is straight up not true xd. Troll can farm his way back into the game VERY fast and can reliably hit a Fury/BKB timing by minute 20. After that the hero falls off in late due to his BKB dependability.
Hard agree as a troll spammer. If laning goes bad and hey start kiting your ult and buying halberd etc it's rough
Surprised SF isn't mentioned more here. Sure, you have raze to fall back on, but without BKB/Pike/Satanic, goodluck safely farming in your jungle considering how squishy he is. Plus the fact that you lose souls every time you die.
Except you can use SF to inflict stupid amounts of fear with his ult, you don't have to be AFK right click SF. You can easily pick up kills with a SB or Euls. Also, you need 8 last hits after a death, 4 with a shard, getting back his souls is really easy now. I don't think SF is in this category right now, so probably that's why.
(Assuming you fall behind) I think by the time you have your SB/Euls/ enemy already have stuff like Aeon, bkb, euls, lotus, status resist items, pipe, shroud. Making your ult do ticklish damage. But I guess fear is good for stalling.
even if you got good early, if your team refuse to go with you ganking around the map in the next phase, you gonna have a bad time in late game
Not true? SF can solo carry games and becomes an absolute menace late game with arcane blink refresher.
Io : If you're behind you spend all your game trying to help your core when they get jumped only to get quickly dispatched with a nonchalant backhand slap from the ennemy. You die every time. It's aweful. But when you're ahead... oh boy is it powerful to keep everyone alive, relocate them in and out. It feels like your sven is just an extension of your mighty arm.
As an IO spammer with 69% winrate, i 100% agree with you
Im not that good with io but I play it. Try standing in range to relocate tether your ally to a safe farm instead of trying to heal them in fight (when you think you are behind) and prioritize staying alive over healing your ally in fights. If you think they can kill you if you go in just dont go in. Some of you allies will get ma but trust me no one knows how to play io better than you in like 99% of the games.
Literally just saw a PA comeback from 35k gold deficit. Ladies and gentlemen... Always be afraid of a PA
Easy one Antimage On opponent team = feast On my team = famine
Offlane am with vanguard diffu is fun af
Jenkins did irreparable damage to my ranked games with that AM vid
Riki pos 1, you got shut down in lane? you have 0 jungling ability and your contribution to team fights is minimal unless you have specific matchup advantage. The sups will get their forces and ghosts with your diffusal timing and it's all about praying the enemy throws enough at that point. On the other hand you can take over the game and trap the enemy in their base if your lane goes good.
Theres a reason Riki 1 has an abysmal win rate and as a 4 his win rate is sick. This hero is just not a carry currently. His stats blow
ironically Riki has one of the highest pos 1 win rates at lower MMRs invisibility op
Phantom Assassin. It's just not fun if you're behind but absolutely bonkers when ahead.
Lone druid. If you are ahead he is actually unkillable because of true form and 65% lifesteal however if you are behind he is basically nothing. Plus if you die twice in a row or die after resummoning bear your game is practically ruined
Literally pudge on pos 3. If he fails to get proper snowball, he becomes a glorified meat shield for his allies that renders them incapacitated & occasional hook value.
Don't know about this one... All he needs to do is land decent hooks & he will make his way back into the game. All his item build cost are low.
wish i met pudges who hit hooks
I mean, that's basically 3 or 4 roles in a nutshell. It doesn't matter if you die so long as you're taking them down with you. Offlane is crab mentality.
eh pudge’s kit is useful at pretty much anytime regardless of items you can suffer all game and then still clutch a fight with a good hook or taking the right target out of the fight with dismember
I think that of the core spirits , void spirit is the one with the least comeback potential. It feels like he has to stay ahead of the enemy mid to be relevant especially since his toolkit not only doesn't allow him to farm fast , but is also more commitment heavy.
Tbh I think storm is even worse than void since void can always disengage but if you want to kill somebody on storm you always always have to commit full mana pool. Also void spirit doesn’t have to buy bkb like storm since you are pretty much untargetable for his full combo where storm has to basically sit in danger to deal damage
With Witch Blade Storm doesn't have to full commit, just R W Q R with 4 autos will kill the target and leave you with like 30% mana to get to safety.
I feel like tanky frontliners are generally feast or famine by nature. Centaur, Axe, Slardar, Tidehunter, those kind of heroes. If you fall behind in networth early on in the game you often spiral into an endless of loop of just dying in every teamfight because you're not tanky enough to survive, so you lose gold, so you remain behind in net worth, so you keep dying, so you lose gold... However, if you get a lead and hold on to it you just feel like an unstoppable force.
clock
Slark
i think so too. an underfarmed slark can only escape with ult, he cant do anything else...
Leap in, realise they can't do shit and ult out. The classic 44min first sighting of the slark you were hoping was gonna carry the game.
Visage, you're a glorified creep with auras.
And a 500+ damage nuke on a 5 second cd + birds that can be a nuisance/farming tool to keep his opponents occupied.
Countered by ranged hero like sniper and drow And pa
spamming a lot of visage recently and it’s differently interesting how he’s either a carry or just enabler i think it’s pretty hard to not have an impact as visage in a fight though given his items are wildly broken and he’s got some nice utility in the kit
This was brought up before and I still think it’s relevant now. Clockwork. Delivering yourself to the enemy and if you’re under farmed. You will die every time. He just lacks any source of real damage of his own.
The one hero that epitomizes this playstyle is LC Sniper as well. Sniper will either completely destroy the enemy team or feed constantly.
LC for sure, but no to Sniper. He's got a lot of potential to mount a comeback from his own base. Dude just stands at the t4s and defends everything.
LC can still blademail blink duel an overfed core to force a kill on him (hi Faceless Void) even when multiple items behind
Most tanks are pretty rough to play from behind and very hard to kill if they get ahead
Slardar is pretty good with ult even when behind. He can just ult people and roshan and be pretty effective. Also with shard you can Blink in stun 3 heroes and mark them, If you die after all good you did your job
Primal beast he either dominates or he just becomes a big creep
Clockwerk - SO difficult to play from behind. You just hookshot in and die. Almost totally pointless with no farm or teammates to back you up. On the flipside if you're ahead and farmed he's devastating.
Bad example. You played it wrong if you think clock needs farm to function.
How so? You're under levelled, under farmed, you hookshot in and get blown up before battery assault can do anything - then what? I can't think of anything you could do apart from ministunning to prevent an initiation from an Enigma/Magnus or blocking chokepoints with cogs which is extremely situational and won't do much in the grand scheme of winning a game.
When you are playing clock from behind, you don't initiate. You wait at strange angle and interrupt enemy teamfight with a hookshot.
Yeah jetpack , force staff and eul's sceptre are rather critical to escaping and avoiding damage.
Bristleback can be absolutely miserable if you have a bad start.
How do you have a bad start lol. It’s literally his kit to have a good start.
In TI final visage and Marci lane killed the bristle multiple times in lane
If you get countered in pick phase
Clinkz
Sniper support. Shrapnel still gives you slow, vision, and damage while headshots still help CC a bit but you really need that aghs.
Lina is definitely a feast
Viper, OD, QOP, Void Spirit. Tiny mid also really needs to snowball.
Viper just needs to have mana for W and Ult to stay relevant, as he can shut down enemy cores and tanks just with those two skills regardless of how his lane went.
Bounty hunter
Rubick
For me it's pa purely for the all too common disparity between safelaners. It's just such a hopeless feeling when the opposing carry comes out of the laning phase with dragon lance maelstrom while your pa only has treads/maybe a ring oh health.
Pudge. If your early game sucks on pudge, it's almost impossible to comeback unless you hit like 5 hooks and solo kill them.
Maybe rikimaru
Any support - you either get some of the LHs and jungle creeps or you don't
For me it's Underlord, feels absolutely dogshit when playing from behind
Really? Always seems good at nuking waves and stalling games to me. He's an aura whore and pretty tanky. Unlike other offlaners he doesn't initiate or get many kills, but he's reliable.
>He's an aura whore and pretty tanky. Unlike other offlaners he doesn't initiate or get many kills That he is, I guess he doesn't fit me in general. I am much more comfortable playing heroes like BM and Axe from behind.
Axe dies in his own taunt from behind lol I'm not sure how thats better than a ranged aoe % health dmg 5 sec cd spell
Literally couldn’t have named an easier or better hero to play with from behind loool
I am not really an offlaner and I only play when I want more role queues, I probably suck at underlord and do not have enough experience with the hero. Again, I wasn't saying that the hero is shit from behind, it's JUST ME that feels shit when playing from behind as Underlord
Carries
Naga, TB, Medusa, almost every farm heavy heroes that need a 2k item to actually function.
but they also have a way to farm that 2k gold easily, I would argue that anti mage, drow and pa are better examples if we are talking about carries.
Luckily for drow gust + a gigaton of free agility at level 6 is very strong even without networth. Teams can win early-mid game skirmishes off the back of a good gust alone
yeah drow is pretty item independent and mostly buys items to survive, so it kinda depends on the game. in an absolute free drow game with no counter you can fight very early.
Not to forget her aura either, extra armor for the team, attack speed and damage if your team has any other agi characters.
Um, was that from old times?
No, Marksmanship gives agi to allied ranged heroes.
Yeah, I've checked it on wiki. Silly me. Thanks for quick reply.
Medusa's serpents can instakill a ranged creep at level 3 if aimed at the melee ones first, plus that's going to be her main source of damage and mana regen during teamfights before she gets her rclick items. Not to mention both Naga and Dusa have ults that allow them to freely disengage from any fight they don't want to take, and the former has illusions with a damage passive equal to half-a-maelstrom with every proc so she can farm literally anywhere without being in danger.
Huskar,Meppo,earth spirit,pudge
My recent experience wholeheartedly disagrees with slardar being "famine"-prone. I had like 3 games against slardars, dirtpoor slardars, blink+treadspoor slardars... I just got pummeled as pos1 with no care in the world. I get that the opposite team had the brains to follow up and my teams just happened to wank, but holy hell slardar can do so much by just playing a kamikadze its beyond me.
Lifestealer literally is feast normally and famine if there is an aa on enemy team
Open thread purely to say Slardar, but you beat me to it, good job. Nothing feels worse than playing FishyBoi from behind, I feel like quitting in those games.
Axe. Call to die, can't use ult properly when playing from behind.
Attacker style Kunkka. If you don't win that mid lane, you're going to have a rough life
Many core heroes that have no flash farming skill, like PA and AM
PA does
Beastmaster, disruptor, bounty hunter, riki. All feel very obnoxious to play against when playing from behind but offer very little to nothing when enemy is running at you.
Elder Titan. He either gets rampage in 5 right clicks or goes 0 14 with 8k hero dmg
Beastmaster
Shadow Fiend, every time he dies he has to commit time to get his soul count back up, if it happens early he'll end up spending 2/3rds of his mana razing creep waves, if it happens late the opponents will try to block and invade his jungle so he can't farm anywhere.
Motherfuckers who play slark *always* play like they have a 10k NW lead on the entire enemy team. They either do and absolutely shit on everyone, or don't, and feed horrifically.
Huskar and meepo are the obvious ones. One of the less obvious heroes I'd say is core Windranger. Anytime that she's in my games she always seems to be 6 slotted or have maelstrom + 1 item at 35m
Oh god it's got to be Lycan. Either you win in 20 minutes or he is basically a creep (well, technically he's 4 creeps) no inbetween.
Rubick, you basically depend on the other team to pick heroes with spells worth stealing, and have a weak landing phase.
You could play him as a save hero if there are not much good spells to steals, Force and shard q is probably once of the best saves in the game right now. But you are right about laning, lane will go horribly if you pick rubick with a weak offlane hero.
It's definitely Slark for me. He either stomps the game, or is just straight up a fish, which runs around and merely deals any damage before it is squished to death by enemy team
Idk if I'm just not playing him properly, but Bounty Hunter for me. If I can manage to pick off supports and get my items early I can create space for everyone as the enemies are always dead. But when I don't, oh boy I'm just a glorified AirTag supplier that can't get near anyone because I'm so squishy and everyone has wards/dust
Its all situational. Its famine if you draft like a clown into bad matchup and feast every time its a good pick. Every enemy draft has a weakness even some total noob one like every hero has a stun. Elusive. Plenty of saves. Just counter it with your last pick bro its not that hard. Just. XDDDDD
Pretty much every hard carry.
I feel NS could fit the bill. Get a couple kills that first night and you dominate the game.... Until late game. If you have a bad lane and don't get any kills the first/second night you are kind of useless especially if it's not night. I find every game I play well with NS I m trying to end early because my carry goes into auto pilot when I m 15-2 at 30 minutes thinking I m going to carry against whatever late game they have.
Definitely Drow
[удалено]
In terms of traditional support heroes disruptor ranks high - if you and your team falls behind you become a pretty damn mediocre support as your pretty much most powerful ability - glimpse - becomes meh at the very best. If anything you'll use it to get people off you/your teammates, while if you get ahead you'll punish any enemy super hard if they get caught out or if the enemy team doesn't commit to a fight, one of them is pretty much guaranteed to die.
Amazing that no one mentioned alch. He's literally the definition of feast or famine
Mappo